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Each step on its own, as far as I can follow them, makes sense. You are, if I understand it correctly, trying to figure out something fundamental, the rock bottom reality. When can we expect that results of such a research to become "applicable to more than one of the traditional departments of knowledge" (http://isss.org/world/about-the-isss)? What kinds of tragedy, disaster, misunderstanding, mismanagement, or failure would/will be preventable by your approach?Aleksandar
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Thanks for these comments, Joe – thanks to Jon for exploring the connection with Laws of Form. Thanks for linking to a few other conversations.
I just want to mention that G. Spencer Brown and LOF had a significant influence on me as well. This book was popular in the late 1960’s or early 1970’s, and it was very up my line. I was exploring topological approaches to logic, and Brown’s book was very striking and influential.
I did not really understand his graphic symbolism – the notion of “crossing”, etc. – and I think a lot of people were mystified by it, but yet intrigued. It just so happened that in 1973, I met a couple of times with the famous anthropologist/epistemologist Gregory Bateson (author of the very influential Steps to an Ecology of Mind, which introduced the theme of “The Pattern That Connects” into the new-thought conversation). He was in residence at UC Santa Cruz at the time, and one of the things we talked about was Laws of Form. Like me, Bateson was intrigued – but asked me if I thought the book was a trick, a mystifying joke being played on a gullible public. He found some citation in the index that he thought was a clue. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-6706-8_14
But for me, this question was just a distraction. The idea that stuck with me – and shaped everything I’ve been doing since, including a lot of messages posted to Ontolog – has to do with the concept of “distinction”, which LOF first put in my head.
“The first command – draw a distinction”
That’s something I’ve been feeling for a long time.
In what I am doing right now, this idea is at the core –
“Draw a distinction in a distinction”
There’s a lot we can say about this.
In Dr. Susan Carey’s “The Origin of Concepts”, she talks about “Quinian Bootstrapping” (W.V.O. Quine) – which I think relates to this kind of mysterious coalescence of concept and form from a mysterious figure/ground tension. She is talking about concept formation in children. Something organic drives an emerging fuzzy notion that becomes explicitly codified.
What I want to suggest is that there is a organic drive dynamic that pushes conceptual form out of the continuum (Tao, real number line, unit interval, etc.) , under the force of some kind of “local” motivation. A distinction gets drawn in a distinction. Maybe this relates to Helen Keller’s powerful experience with the concept/word W-A-T-E-R as drawn on her hand….
In any case, thank you.
It feels to me like there is a powerful transcendental theorem in the air right now. We are figuring this out. Something wants to explode through the keyhole.
For those who want to decode this mystery, there’s a lot to consider right here in this excerpt from Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Form
Bruce Schuman
Santa Barbara CA USA
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Thanks Joe.
I am continuing to bump along on my project for “integral ontology”, and I now have a growing list of sources that includes LOF – along with a bunch of other things, including Conceptual Structures by JS.
Another thing I have done is develop a way to build a list or system of “principles” – guiding design ideas, etc. – which I start off with a series of quotes from JS, that were (and are) very influential on me. I have a way to comment on each quote or principle individually – and something like this could be opened to group dialogue. What are we trying to do, what are the strongest insights for helping us do it?
On LOF – this is some deep stuff, a little bit hard to figure, but I can feel my way into it in ways that seem significant.
There are a few areas or “themes” that seem relevant:
So – you write:
Joe S
> "We now see that the first distinction, the mark, and the observer are not only interchangeable, but, in the form, identical."
This is trippy, maybe confusing, maybe confused – but I would say it’s a sincere hard push towards something deep. Like maybe think about a “holon” – a “two-sided” (“Janus-faced”) concept, that appears as both a part or a whole, depending on how it is viewed – i.e., whether Janus is “looking UP the hierarchy” of part/whole relationships, so that part appears as a whole – or DOWN the hierarchy from the point of view of the whole, so “the same thing” now appears as “a part”. Think of an automobile. Is a carburetor a part or a whole? It’s both.
So I think this goes to the mystery of concept formation – which I would say GSB is try to demystify.
Joe
> The statement above, to me, indicates that the formal language representations associated with the "Laws Of Form," are highly restricted.
I am not sure exactly what you are saying, Joe –“highly restricted” – how? They are restricted to a logic defined only within LOF?
But I do absolutely agree that the wording is confusing. “The mark and the observer of the mark are 1) interchangeable, and 2) identical.”
Huh?
But lets give the guy some space. “The observer is one with what he (she) observes” That makes sense – with a charitable reading.
> No one would say that a mark on a sheet of paper is an observer, in real life.
Yes. So that is confusing – maybe (?) just badly conceptualized. But I sense that there is a mysterious “emergent” kind of process, where we are kind of feeling our way into something – where we are “kind of” making a distinction – but what IS that, what is that distinction made IN – and HOW is it made? BY what? For what reason? How do we codify it, or remember it?
I just purchased the book The Origin of Concepts, by Susan Carey, a child psychology professor at Harvard, where she talks about “bootstrapping” at the foundation of concept formation. I think we are seeing a kind of bootstrapping, and LOF might (?) be a very early precursor to this idea.
Something is making a distinction in something
All very blurry and very primal.
> The challenge is to find a suitable natural language that properly applies the Laws Of Form to a range of real situations.
Or maybe a “suitable interpretation in natural language” that can model/describe what LOF is talking about…..
I’d say that is the route I am taking.
> The space, state or contents associated with the distinction is a key consideration in the proper application of the Laws Of Form.
And what I probably want to do – is to define the “dimensionality” of all these intersecting elements. “The distinction intersects something and makes a distinction in it”.
In broader terms, talking taxonomy – we might say that “something makes a distinction in a genus, and that distinction forms a species”.
> The relationships associated with the real space, state or contents are not as restricted as the relationships associated with the Laws Of Form.
“the real space, state or content” -- i.e. the reality in which we are making a distinction
If it is a “state” – I would way we are making a distinction in an abstraction – since “state” is an abstract concept, maybe a variable or the values of a variable
“Content” might be bounded in some way – like “the content of a matrix cell” – but with no internal differentiation. It’s just a unit, a whole.
But if we seem to detect some variation in units that are supposed to be “identical” – we might start analyzing that difference, and trying to “draw a distinction”
How does that happen? Did we really see a “difference” between these two “identical units”? How can we conceptualize that.
Get out the surgical knife, make a cut, draw a distinction…. And then give it a name and call it something – or if you cut one thing into two things, name them both, and figure out why they are different and how
***
On related subject –I really want to ground all this stuff in measurement.
I think these themes are very related. Are “distinctions orthogonal to the thing they are making a distinction in?”
(“are species orthogonal to their genus”?)
I like this carpenter square. It looks a lot like GSB’s primary mark. It’s a lot of distinctions in one place.
Something like this, I think – is how we bring this stuff down to earth. How we make it real. How we make it matter.
Thanks.
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Joe S
> "We now see that the first distinction, the mark, and the observer are not only interchangeable, but, in the form, identical."
"
What I wrote was a quote from Laws of Form.
The "form" is an abstract representation of a specific distinction made by the "scribe" (the agent that made the mark.)
The scribe could be the observer or the observer could be a different agent.
The utility of the Laws of Form, in my opinion, is directly related to the value generated by encoding a distinction into a collection of marks.
What are the specific benefits of encoding distinctions using marks and the Laws of Form?
The answer to this question is what guides my interest in this topic.