Let's disband, not just decertify, GOVT. UNIONS
postretro
The have sabbaticals, 5 figure retirement gratuity cheques and well funded,
failure proof indexed pensions , entertainment expense accounts. Trips to
resorts for meetings.....
They are the NDP's power base. Most tradesmen despise the NDP.
Bob Rae during his Socialist Phase (he's belonged to most parties, as it
suited him) topped up the Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund so richly, as a sop
for losing their unique feather bed, Ontario High School grade 13, which had
greatly accelerated the drop out rate; that they are now the richest
organization in Canada.
They are the controlling stock holder in: Royal Bank, Cadillac Fairview,
Mccain Foods, 50% of all index funds and hundreds more significant
securities -- a total of $100,000,000.
These 'overworked' teachers put in about 260, 6.5 hour days per year, not
counting professional days, 30% fewer than private sector workers, only 15%
of whom have company pensions.
There may be no way to achieve this freedom by current legal means. That may
require a complete financial collapse and re-ordering.
Viejo Vizcacha
I am not sure if you realize that what you wrote is filled with envy
and resentment.
I am always a bit disturbed when people promoting "libertarian ideas",
once you scratch the surface a bit, end up showing envy, resentment,
and biterness.
VV
Chom Noamsky
> I am not sure if you realize that what you wrote is filled with envy
> and resentment.
>
> I am always a bit disturbed when people promoting "libertarian ideas",
> once you scratch the surface a bit, end up showing envy, resentment,
> and biterness.
Maybe the answer is to have everyone employed by government. That way,
there can be no wage inequality between the public and private sector. Of
course, there would be no money to pay wages and productivity would
collapse, but at least everyone would be equal.
Viejo Vizcacha
> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 09:04:56 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
> government & private sector pay levels. It is totally out of whack
> and has been for some time.
Actually, I think there have been several instances of people
abandoning government careers and getting into the private sector
because the pay there is several dozen times bigger than with
government. Top of my head, I think that Mike Harris, Mulroney, and
several conservative politicians left government because they could
get much more in the private sector.
VV
Chom Noamsky
> Actually, I think there have been several instances of people
> abandoning government careers and getting into the private sector
> because the pay there is several dozen times bigger than with
> government. Top of my head, I think that Mike Harris, Mulroney, and
> several conservative politicians left government because they could
> get much more in the private sector.
Private sector earning POTENTIAL is much higher, virtually unlimited. It
doesn't mean the average private sector worker is making better money.
Government is where people who couldn't make it in the private sector end
up. Collectively a very powerful bunch who can bring the country to a halt
whenever they aren't getting what they want. But hey, that's what democracy
is all about... isn't it?
Viejo Vizcacha
> "Viejo Vizcacha" <nats_ugly...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0358546c-1920-4ac9...@t2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Actually, I think there have been several instances of people
> > abandoning government careers and getting into the private sector
> > because the pay there is several dozen times bigger than with
> > government. Top of my head, I think that Mike Harris, Mulroney, and
> > several conservative politicians left government because they could
> > get much more in the private sector.
>
> Private sector earning POTENTIAL is much higher, virtually unlimited. It
> doesn't mean the average private sector worker is making better money.
So, basically, it means that the income disparity in the private
sector is much biger than in the public sector.
> Government is where people who couldn't make it in the private sector end
> up. Collectively a very powerful bunch who can bring the country to a halt
> whenever they aren't getting what they want. But hey, that's what democracy
> is all about... isn't it?
And, that you like income disparity, the more the merrier.
VV
Douglas Yates
"Chom Noamsky" <ba...@dogg.comm> wrote in message
news:epjHm.51084$PH1.6665@edtnps82...
No they wouldn't. There would always be those chasing after special
privilege.
One only has to look at the old Soviet Union model to see what such a
worker's environment "everyone being equal" is.
During that time, everyone was indeed equal, but some were more equal than
others.
Douglas Yates
"Chom Noamsky" <ba...@dogg.comm> wrote in message
> "Viejo Vizcacha" <nats_u...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:0358546c-1920-4ac9...@t2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Actually, I think there have been several instances of people
>> abandoning government careers and getting into the private sector
>> because the pay there is several dozen times bigger than with
>> government. Top of my head, I think that Mike Harris, Mulroney, and
>> several conservative politicians left government because they could
>> get much more in the private sector.
>
> Private sector earning POTENTIAL is much higher, virtually unlimited. It
> doesn't mean the average private sector worker is making better money.
> Government is where people who couldn't make it in the private sector end
> up.
Not nessesarily. There's quite a few who have been very successful in the
public service, and the public service has specialties that don't exist
in the private sector.
It depends on what service you can provide and what you want to participate
in.
Mulroney didn't leave for better money. He was making very good money being
a high priced lawyer before seeking the leadership.
Tim Elliot
>
> Mulroney didn't leave for better money. He was making very good money being
> a high priced lawyer before seeking the leadership.
>
>
>
>
>
The US military is all socialist.
Tim Elliot
>
> Take a tour of large government offices and you will see just how hard
> they are trying to implement your plan.
>
>
>
I want a profitable military.
I don't trust the government.
"Let the market decide"
Douglas Yates
"Tim Elliot" <tell...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2557a87fd...@News.Individual.NET...
So what does that have to do with Canadian politics??
Tim Elliot
> "Chom Noamsky" <ba...@dogg.comm> wrote in message
> news:epjHm.51084$PH1.6665@edtnps82...
> > Maybe the answer is to have everyone employed by government. That way,
> > there can be no wage inequality between the public and private sector. Of
> > course, there would be no money to pay wages and productivity would
> > collapse, but at least everyone would be equal.
>
> No they wouldn't. There would always be those chasing after special
> privilege.
>
> One only has to look at the old Soviet Union model to see what such a
> worker's environment "everyone being equal" is.
>
> During that time, everyone was indeed equal, but some were more equal than
> others.
>
>
>
I want a President who can see Russia from her front door.
Not a Mulatto.
postretro
a very small news item almost 40 years ago -
'The Beijing Police arrested the demonstrators for yelling incorrect
slogans'.
It comes as no surprise that Canada, probably the nation most lost in this
Red Guard like quagmire, inherited it from Communists. Not only is our six
tiered govt. apparatus one of the largest advertisers in the nation, its
2,000,000 strong public, para-public and quasi-public workers unions have
begun their own propaganda in the national media and on-line.
'Six tiered Govt.?' Count them: Federal, Provincial, Regional, Municipal,
Crown Corporations and Neighbourhood Associations. And if you think the last
2 are not political - just cross them. They would make George Orwell cringe.
Want to know the end game for let's say Canada and the NATO Countries? Read
Gibbon's, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Endless foreign wars -
resulting in very nasty foreign and domestic enemies, Insufficient
agriculture to feed themselves, order of magnitude disparity of earnings
and savings, uncontrolled immigration/ slaves (domestics), Total govt.
corruption, Police/ Praetorian Guard death squads destabilizing the Govt.
system, invasion by pirate states
Douglas Yates
Go to the United States, become a U.S. citizen then and vote for one.
Dave Smith
> These overpaid slugs now earn 26% more than private sector workers.
>
> The have sabbaticals, 5 figure retirement gratuity cheques and well funded,
> failure proof indexed pensions , entertainment expense accounts. Trips to
> resorts for meetings.....
>
Bullshit. I worked for the government. I did not get a retirement
gratuity cheque. I got severance pay, just like a lot of other people
get. I paid 8% off the top of every pay cheque into my pension plan. For
a few years it was 9% because the plan was doing badly thanks to the
government managing it themselves and loaning our money out to pet
projects for 5% when at a time when mortgage rates were sky high. I had
an expense to cover my expenses when doing business travel. It covered
meals, hotels and mileage..... not entertainment. We did not have
meetings in resorts. They were most often at a centrally located hotel
that offered the best rate.
> Bob Rae during his Socialist Phase (he's belonged to most parties, as it
> suited him) topped up the Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund so richly, as a sop
> for losing their unique feather bed, Ontario High School grade 13, which had
> greatly accelerated the drop out rate; that they are now the richest
> organization in Canada.
The elimination of Grade 13 in Ontario was first suggested in 1973, when
there was a PC government.The plan to implement that carried out by the
Harris government under education minister John Snobelen. The reason
that the pension plan is doing so well is that the teachers demanded
that they have more control over their plan, and they ended up doing a
much better job. And what the hell does Gr. 13 and the drop out rate
have to do with the pension?
> They are the controlling stock holder in: Royal Bank, Cadillac Fairview,
> Mccain Foods, 50% of all index funds and hundreds more significant
> securities -- a total of $100,000,000.
Yeah yeah yeah. You can't let unions control their own pension funds
because all unions are corrupt and will handle the finances poorly. Then
when they manage their own pension funds well people like you whine that
they have too much money.
> These 'overworked' teachers put in about 260, 6.5 hour days per year, not
> counting professional days, 30% fewer than private sector workers, only 15%
> of whom have company pensions.
That is 6.5 hours at school. They also have to prepare lesson plans,
mark papers, record keeping. My wife was a teacher and her working days
were more like 14-16 hours, not 6.5, plus time on weekends.
> There may be no way to achieve this freedom by current legal means. That may
> require a complete financial collapse and re-ordering.
If you want to do things by legal means you are going to have to start
dealing with truth and facts and not rely on utter bullshit.
postretro
"Dave Smith" <adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4aedfe54$0$1600$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
> postretro wrote:
>> These overpaid slugs now earn 26% more than private sector workers.
>>
>> The have sabbaticals, 5 figure retirement gratuity cheques and well
>> funded, failure proof indexed pensions , entertainment expense accounts.
>> Trips to resorts for meetings.....
>>
>
> Bullshit. I worked for the government. I did not get a retirement gratuity
> cheque. I got severance pay, just like a lot of other people get. I paid
> 8% off the top of every pay cheque into my pension plan.
Plus the 8% the feds added compounded for 30 or 40 years
Oh come on, you stop the lying, there's tons of proof on-line that Bob
Rae topped up the OTF Teacher's Pension Fund with boxcars full of Govt
money
>
>> These 'overworked' teachers put in about 260, 6.5 hour days per year, not
>> counting professional days, 30% fewer than private sector workers, only
>> 15% of whom have company pensions.
>
> That is 6.5 hours at school. They also have to prepare lesson plans, mark
> papers, record keeping. My wife was a teacher and her working days were
> more like 14-16 hours, not 6.5, plus time on weekends.
>
>
>
>> There may be no way to achieve this freedom by current legal means. That
>> may require a complete financial collapse and re-ordering.
>
>
> If you want to do things by legal means you are going to have to start
> dealing with truth and facts and not rely on utter bullshit.
>
CUPE hothead, a vast number of Govt Workers, Esp. teachers save up the
untaken sick leave days, and get a payout of all, at their highest per diem
rate on retirement. For years they got it tax free. Pensions have nothing to
do with this 'tip'
As to hours worked, I once lived in The Toronto Beach area next to a York
University Professor and his wife, a public school teacher. I worked on the
phone and outside sales. Their 2 vehicles were rarely gone from their home
for more than 6 hours per day, and I don't recall seeing them bringing home
any brief cases or boxes of papers to plan or correct at night.
The other habit they had was to make a big fuss about what a bad neighbour I
was for telling their vistors and large number of contractors to remove
their cars from my clearly defined parking area.
Neil K
"postretro" <rf...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:WTnHm.2000$jh1....@newsfe19.iad...
You sound like a real winner! A behind the curtain snooper eh ......
Not just a prick, but a prick so slow you come to the group to inform us how
distasteful you are,; and the poor buffoon doesn't even realize it.
Viejo Vizcacha
> "Dave Smith" <adavid.sm...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
Really? I have lived in several neighbourhoods in three continents,
and cannot remember a single week where I could have said for sure how
many hours any of my neighbours was working.
Is your life so miserable that you feel the need to spend it watching
your neighbours comings and goings?
VV
Viejo Vizcacha
> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 09:46:05 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
> elected officials. Let' just add that to the list of things you don't
> know.
If it makes you happy, go ahead.
Cheers,
VV
postretro
VV
I guess you read from right to left in your country. And you read
selectively, the paragraph below indicates why I was watching the street,
and mine & tenants parking area -- to keep the haughty next door teacher's
visitors from stealing my parking spaces, it happened every month.
Dave Smith
>> Bullshit. I worked for the government. I did not get a retirement gratuity
>> cheque. I got severance pay, just like a lot of other people get. I paid
>> 8% off the top of every pay cheque into my pension plan.
>
> Plus the 8% the feds added compounded for 30 or 40 years
Get it straight. You were talking about Bob Rae and the teachers. The
federal government has and had nothing to do with the the Ontario
teachers union or their pension.
>>> They are the controlling stock holder in: Royal Bank, Cadillac Fairview,
>>> Mccain Foods, 50% of all index funds and hundreds more significant
>>> securities -- a total of $100,000,000.
>> Yeah yeah yeah. You can't let unions control their own pension funds
>> because all unions are corrupt and will handle the finances poorly. Then
>> when they manage their own pension funds well people like you whine that
>> they have too much money.
>
> Oh come on, you stop the lying, there's tons of proof on-line that Bob
> Rae topped up the OTF Teacher's Pension Fund with boxcars full of Govt
> money
If that is the case you can provide a cite.
>>> There may be no way to achieve this freedom by current legal means. That
>>> may require a complete financial collapse and re-ordering.
>>
>> If you want to do things by legal means you are going to have to start
>> dealing with truth and facts and not rely on utter bullshit.
>>
> CUPE hothead, a vast number of Govt Workers, Esp. teachers save up the
> untaken sick leave days, and get a payout of all, at their highest per diem
> rate on retirement. For years they got it tax free. Pensions have nothing to
> do with this 'tip'
Once again you seem to be having trouble with facts. You were talking
about teachers. They don't belong to CUPE, nor to Ontario civil
servants. That would be OPSEU.
> As to hours worked, I once lived in The Toronto Beach area next to a York
> University Professor and his wife, a public school teacher. I worked on the
> phone and outside sales. Their 2 vehicles were rarely gone from their home
> for more than 6 hours per day, and I don't recall seeing them bringing home
> any brief cases or boxes of papers to plan or correct at night.
So you are passing judgment on all Ontario teachers based on your spying
on your neighbours. I worked a compressed work week. 10 hours a day for
four days per week. My wife used to drop me off for work at 7 am and
then head to school and then I would have to wait until about 4:30 for
her to pick me up. I was done after four days but she had to go in for
five, not to mention all the work that she did at work and on weekends.
If we had nosey neighbours like you they might have thought that she
was not going in at all.
Archie
The private sector has been raped and destroyed by you anti union, pro
unbridled capitalism fucking twats. How about you - "Chom"? Are you
enjoying the race to the bottom. The destitution of the manufacturing
workers isn't enough eh - now go after the public employees. And you
think you are going to stay above it all? You fucking moron(s). In
your hatred for the working class, your envy, your inability to take
any delight in workers making a decent wage have screwed the whole
economy into the ground. There is nobody spending anymore - the jobs
have gone to China you fuckwit. America won the race to the bottom.
What fucking POTENTIAL are you talking about? Idiots like you (right
wing lasissez faire 'libertarians') have screwed it up hopelssly. I'd
love to stand on the picket line you tried to cross.
Archie
>
> And, that you like income disparity, the more the merrier.
>
He has exposed himself to be one of the most dispicable pricks on
usenet. His aim is to be one of an exclusive elite.
Archie
>
> You sound like a real winner! A behind the curtain snooper eh ......
> Not just a prick, but a prick so slow you come to the group to inform us how
This one is a winner alright.
Archie
>
> So you are passing judgment on all Ontario teachers based on your spying
> on your neighbours. I worked a compressed work week. 10 hours a day for
> four days per week. My wife used to drop me off for work at 7 am and
> then head to school and then I would have to wait until about 4:30 for
> her to pick me up. I was done after four days but she had to go in for
> five, not to mention all the work that she did at work and on weekends.
> If we had nosey neighbours like you they might have thought that she
> was not going in at all.
You got to wonder what he was doing home all day in the Beaches area -
spying and keeping tabs, turning green with envy.
Liberals are vermin
> These overpaid slugs now earn 26% more than private sector workers.
>
It's on the order of 34% in Canada. Time for the culling of those
redundant jobs.
Commentator
The jobs have gone to China because China makes the goods more cheaply. It
has nothing to do with Canadians spending (other than their collective
choice for the lowest price). It has all to do with the cost of
manufacturing - materials, wages, benefits, taxes at all levels, regulatory
compliance costs, etc.
If anything, anyone who "delighted" in rising manufacturing wages was doing
so as those same wages hastened the movement of jobs offshore so that the
likes of WalMart could keep their prices low.
Archie
>
> The jobs have gone to China because China makes the goods more cheaply. It
> has nothing to do with Canadians spending (other than their collective
> choice for the lowest price). It has all to do with the cost of
> manufacturing - materials, wages, benefits, taxes at all levels, regulatory
> compliance costs, etc.
>
> If anything, anyone who "delighted" in rising manufacturing wages was doing
> so as those same wages hastened the movement of jobs offshore so that the
> likes of WalMart could keep their prices low.
>
The jobs are gone and going. That has everything to do with spending.
The American consumer was the key element not only in American
prosperity, but in Canadian properity as well.
Prosperity was based in good wages. It was based in American and
Canadian demand for goods and services. Although the Chambers of
Commerce and business operators decrid good wages, good wages were
their bread and butter.
That deal has been sold down the river and you can't blame that on
workers.
Archie
> Time for the culling of those
> redundant jobs.
Mr. Vermin. THAT should make us prosperous.
Of course, with the manufacturing base gone the service sector,
infrastructure, and the whole kit and kabootle are screwed. Public
service jobs are walking the plank.
Were you one of those beating the globalization drum Mr. Vermin? Were
you among the vermin that unwittingly sold the country down the river
to enhance capitalists profits?
Commentator
Like most things in life, there is more than one person / group to blame.
Workers, managers, government, and consumers all play a part.
Manufacturing workers are not blameless.
postretro
Mr Smith you must be a victim of the child centred curriculum.
As you can read further above, while phoning my customers, the point of
watching the street and my parking area - through a 6' x 5' sliding glass
balcony door with no curtains, was that I was constantly having these
noble, underpaid, pedagogue's vistors stealing mine and tenants parking
spaces, every month, and the professor calling me obscene names for
mentionning it.
postretro
"Archie" <aken...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:ed644385-7ddb-4e2e...@p32g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
Your petty, politically correct drivel and twisting facts has been answered
above
You would have fit right in to the NDP vipers nest of the Beach Triangle
Dave Smith
>
>>> As to hours worked, I once lived in The Toronto Beach area next to a York
>>> University Professor and his wife, a public school teacher. I worked on
>>> the phone and outside sales. Their 2 vehicles were rarely gone from their
>>> home for more than 6 hours per day, and I don't recall seeing them
>>> bringing home any brief cases or boxes of papers to plan or correct at
>>> night.
>> So you are passing judgment on all Ontario teachers based on your spying
>> on your neighbours. I worked a compressed work week. 10 hours a day for
>> four days per week. My wife used to drop me off for work at 7 am and then
>> head to school and then I would have to wait until about 4:30 for her to
>> pick me up. I was done after four days but she had to go in for five, not
>> to mention all the work that she did at work and on weekends. If we had
>> nosey neighbours like you they might have thought that she was not going
>> in at all.
>>
>
> Mr Smith you must be a victim of the child centred curriculum.
>
> As you can read further above, while phoning my customers, the point of
> watching the street and my parking area - through a 6' x 5' sliding glass
> balcony door with no curtains, was that I was constantly having these
> noble, underpaid, pedagogue's vistors stealing mine and tenants parking
> spaces, every month, and the professor calling me obscene names for
> mentionning it.
Oh. I see. You irrational rant against civil servants and teachers is
rooted not only in your confusion about levels of government and the
different unions involved in these issues, but that some bastard
professor used the wrong parking space.
>
>
whitebread
"postretro" <rf...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:T7jHm.8719$Js....@newsfe10.iad...
> These overpaid slugs now earn 26% more than private sector workers.
Hey, dumbass - that shows how much the "private sector" takes advantage of non-unionized
workers, not that the unionized workers are doing anything illegal, dumb or immoral.
> The have sabbaticals, 5 figure retirement gratuity cheques and well funded, failure
> proof indexed pensions , entertainment expense accounts. Trips to resorts for
> meetings.....
You're talking about CEOs of corporations, MPs, MLAs and heads of unions, not unionized
workers.
This recession we're in showed just how strong corporate types were in slashing union
positions, union wages, and in time, getting YOUR tax dollars to 'bail them out'. You
didn't see unionized workers getting any bail outs.
> They are the NDP's power base. Most tradesmen despise the NDP.
Yeah, right. Most tradespersons are constantly trying to get into unionized jobs -
especially when their 'private' bosses start to screw them over. Hate, hate, hate
....... apply for a unionized job.
> Bob Rae during his Socialist Phase (he's belonged to most parties, as it suited him)
> topped up the Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund so richly, as a sop for losing their unique
> feather bed, Ontario High School grade 13, which had greatly accelerated the drop out
> rate; that they are now the richest organization in Canada.
You're a shade of green as you write that, aren't you? Never qualified for a union job,
son?
> They are the controlling stock holder in: Royal Bank, Cadillac Fairview, Mccain Foods,
> 50% of all index funds and hundreds more significant securities -- a total of
> $100,000,000.
Compare the investments of various Unions and the annual bonuses of CEOs or salaries of
elected government members and it will cure your stupidity quite quickly. The waste in
this country is not in giving working people semi-livable wages, it's in the golden
handshakes and bonuses and self-approved wage increases by those we elected to guard the
publics taxes. THOSE are the ones you should be railing about, but you'd rather aim at
those nearest YOUR level, holding down positions YOU can't qualify for.
> These 'overworked' teachers put in about 260, 6.5 hour days per year, not counting
> professional days, 30% fewer than private sector workers, only 15% of whom have company
> pensions.
In B.C., the right wing government of Gordon Campbell is a case in point. In 2007 he gave
HIMSELF a 54% wage increase. Get that? 54% !
And his MLAs gave themselves 29% - and his Cabinet ministers even more. And then in 2009,
they did it all over again. And low-wage workers? Well, they don't count for
anything......... their minimum wage remains frozen at $8/hr - and that involves nearly
20% of the working people in the province.
And how many days did they actually sit in session at the Legislature? An average of 45
to 47 days a YEAR. That's HALF of what its predecessor government, a 'socialist one',
logged. Now, you do the math, and tell us who the real pigs at the trough are - workers
or rightwing governments and their corporate piggy supporters.
> There may be no way to achieve this freedom by current legal means. That may require a
> complete financial collapse and re-ordering.
Yeah, like you're one to advocate "re-ordering" of anything. You can't even get a
unionized job.
klunk
"Commentator" <comme...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:k2sHm.12289$nO3....@news.usenetserver.com...
that's a fallacy which has been milked to the benefit of those who have
profited from the markups on poorer quality goods sold at inflated prices to
the detriment of middle workers who have seen dramatic reductions in their
income as contrasted by the dramatic growth in income disparity between top
and bottom... and after all the melamine and lead being shipped over to
poison consumers, a rather stupid thing to say...
Purple Heart
> They are the controlling stock holder in: Royal Bank, Cadillac Fairview,
> Mccain Foods, 50% of all index funds and hundreds more significant
> securities -- a total of $100,000,00
>
You're obviously not a libertarian because you live in Canada and use the
socialist safety net. If you were a real libertarian and not a bleeding heart
socialist from one trick pony, oil dependent Hellberta, perhaps someone would
take you seriously. You oil sandniggers of the north are the laughing stock of
north America, with the massive taxpayer subsidies supporting the oil patch, the
only source of revenue you have, living in a province which spends more
government money than any other in the nation; we should call you Communist,
Komrade. But alas, you probably have a minimum wage job anyway because you
lack the education and the skills to do any better.
Your postihg history here amounts to nothing more than weak minded bleating and
whining from an uderachieving, bitter socialist stooge.
My taxes should not be supporting losers in life like you.
Commentator
Please show how this is a fallacy. And whether the goods are full of
melamine or lead, or are otherwise of poor quality, doesn't change the fact
that consumers looking for cheap prices buy these products.
Wrap it up in whatever words you want, but wishing otherwise does not make
this false.
klunk
"Commentator" <comme...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1aKHm.1111$tn1...@news.usenetserver.com...
you fail to account for numerous factors which extend beyond and
dramatically impact the bar on what is deemed a "cheap price"... if middle
class wage increases kept up at even half the rate that upper class incomes
have grown, then rip-off factories like wal-merde who advertise cheap prices
but charge the same as everyone else while treating everyone in their
production to distribution to sales chain like disposable serfs while raking
in bloated profits for the incestuously small circle of pigs at their trough
wouldn't grow so big that they dominate markets and squeeze out independents
and eliminate competition... while grow too big to fail and become
candidates for corporate welfare AFTER years of offloading the cost of
benefits they should have provided their workers to the public... or when
enterprises grow so large that when they tighten their belts, there are
thousands of newly unemployed instead of a few dozen... all of which adds to
your tax burden...
iow... you only believe that it's cheaper because you've opened your mouth
wide to swallow their hallucinogenic feces and the toxics have rotted your
brain so much all you can factor in to the total cost of a purchase is the
sticker with big, bold numbers that "secretly translate" into the word
"sucker"...
obtw... you may not give a shit about things like melamine and lead because
it didn't directly affect your navel, but I'm certain you'd be the first one
crying "foul" if the cheap toothpaste you bought rotted your teeth out of
your mouth... and it's quite clear you don't give a flying fuck about some
teenager in china working 16 hour days to crawl into their stacked
cubby-hole for a couple of hours before returning to their days as cattle
for their masters the next day; but I'm also quite certain you'd be the
first and loudest whiner of the bunch if you found yourself bearing such a
bare existence...
and to dumb it down even more for you, stupid... you get what you pay for...
there's no such thing as cheap when your slave wages can't pay for a decent
lifestyle or when your manufacturing plant gets shut down and you have no
income...
try thinking outside of your glory hole for a change.... ;-)
Archie
Take it easy - calm down.
Just focus on the breath.
fred
> These overpaid slugs now earn 26% more than private sector workers.
>
> The have sabbaticals, 5 figure retirement gratuity cheques and well
> funded, failure proof indexed pensions , entertainment expense accounts.
> Trips to resorts for meetings.....
>
> They are the NDP's power base. Most tradesmen despise the NDP.
>
Bullshit. They have unions too. And the NDP is the only party that gives a
shit about union members. There was a disagreement between the provincial
workers when Rae ordered them back when they went on an illegal walkout.
Other than the effect of the lies made up to twist these facts, there's
no split.
> Bob Rae during his Socialist Phase (he's belonged to most parties, as it
> suited him)
NDP provincially and Liberal Federally. There are now 5 federal parties
that hold seats in the house of commons. Where does your word most come
from?
> They are the controlling stock holder in: Royal Bank, Cadillac Fairview,
> Mccain Foods, 50% of all index funds and hundreds more significant
> securities -- a total of $100,000,000.
>
Bullshit. Common sharesholders have absolutely no say in company policy.
They can't even attend annual stockholders meetings.
> These 'overworked' teachers put in about 260, 6.5 hour days per year,
> not counting professional days, 30% fewer than private sector workers,
> only 15% of whom have company pensions.
>
And even less have university degrees. Every teacher has two.
> There may be no way to achieve this freedom by current legal means. That
> may require a complete financial collapse and re-ordering.
>
It's called facism. Hitler tried it once. It didn't work so hot.
BTW I belong to no political party. Something I very much doubt you can say.
Commentator
IOW, you are not capable of a factual discussion. Your mind is made up,
your bias is clear, and you are running on emotion.
>
> obtw... you may not give a shit about things like melamine and lead
> because it didn't directly affect your navel, but I'm certain you'd
> be the first one crying "foul" if the cheap toothpaste you bought
> rotted your teeth out of your mouth... and it's quite clear you don't
> give a flying fuck about some teenager in china working 16 hour days
> to crawl into their stacked cubby-hole for a couple of hours before
> returning to their days as cattle for their masters the next day; but
> I'm also quite certain you'd be the first and loudest whiner of the
> bunch if you found yourself bearing such a bare existence...
>
> and to dumb it down even more for you, stupid... you get what you pay
> for... there's no such thing as cheap when your slave wages can't pay
> for a decent lifestyle or when your manufacturing plant gets shut
> down and you have no income...
>
> try thinking outside of your glory hole for a change.... ;-)
IOW, your bias causes you to assume that I am one of the evil conspirators
because I have the temerity to not vehemently and blindly agree with all you
have to say.
And all of this without any idea of who I am or what I think about the likes
of made in China products or WalMart.
Canuck57
> "Viejo Vizcacha" <nats_u...@yahoo.com> wrote in message:
>
>> I am not sure if you realize that what you wrote is filled with envy
>> and resentment.
>>
>> I am always a bit disturbed when people promoting "libertarian ideas",
>> once you scratch the surface a bit, end up showing envy, resentment,
>> and biterness.
>
> there can be no wage inequality between the public and private sector. Of
> course, there would be no money to pay wages and productivity would
> collapse, but at least everyone would be equal.
If everyone worked for government, who is going to get anything done?
We could tax people 100% this week so we could pay them next week.
The real problem is that we need to downsize governemnt big time.
Government should be legislated into right sizing. For departments that
don't comply, stem management transfers, shut them down and outsource it.
Canuck57
> E. Barry Bruyea wrote
>> Take a tour of large government offices and you will see just how hard
>> they are trying to implement your plan.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I want a profitable military.
>
>
> I don't trust the government.
>
>
> "Let the market decide"
Ottawa will not have any of that. Get back to working for the
government you insulant sheeple.
Sarcasm asside, government is not about hearing the people, it is about
herd management and using the tax system as a form of slavery.
Canuck57
> On Nov 1, 12:22 pm, E. Barry Bruyea <termlim...@democracy.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 09:04:56 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
>>>> The have sabbaticals, 5 figure retirement gratuity cheques and well funded,
>>>> failure proof indexed pensions , entertainment expense accounts. Trips to
>>>> resorts for meetings.....
>>>> They are the NDP's power base. Most tradesmen despise the NDP.
>>>> for losing their unique feather bed, Ontario High School grade 13, which had
>>>> greatly accelerated the drop out rate; that they are now the richest
>>>> organization in Canada.
>>>> Mccain Foods, 50% of all index funds and hundreds more significant
>>>> securities -- a total of $100,000,000.
>>>> counting professional days, 30% fewer than private sector workers, only 15%
>>>> of whom have company pensions.
>>>> require a complete financial collapse and re-ordering.
>>> and resentment.
>>> I am always a bit disturbed when people promoting "libertarian ideas",
>>> once you scratch the surface a bit, end up showing envy, resentment,
>>> and biterness.
>> Your comment hardly justifies the present stats in regards to
>> government & private sector pay levels. It is totally out of whack
>> and has been for some time.
>
> Actually, I think there have been several instances of people
> abandoning government careers and getting into the private sector
> because the pay there is several dozen times bigger than with
> government. Top of my head, I think that Mike Harris, Mulroney, and
> several conservative politicians left government because they could
> get much more in the private sector.
>
Depends on the job. For top corruption, $300K cash and the probability
on not declaring that to CRA for an equivent above board draw of $550K
was Mulroney's lure. To top it off, Liberals gave the corrupt bastard
$2.1 million non taxable to shut up.
The problem is pensions and the top levels. Take fast Eddy, 30% plus
raise, 1/3rd tax free and with cc for expenses decides to rake teachers
2007 year increase today for 1%. Sort of hypocritical bullshit.
Arrogant bugger wants people to do as he asks, not as he does. I am no
fan of teachers rates for 6/hrs work per day on a 8 month work year but
the problem clearly starts right at the very top. Bet teachers work
harder than politicians.
Dave Smith
>> Maybe the answer is to have everyone employed by government. That
>> way, there can be no wage inequality between the public and private
>> sector. Of course, there would be no money to pay wages and
>> productivity would collapse, but at least everyone would be equal.
>
> If everyone worked for government, who is going to get anything done? We
> could tax people 100% this week so we could pay them next week.
>
> The real problem is that we need to downsize governemnt big time.
> Government should be legislated into right sizing. For departments that
> don't comply, stem management transfers, shut them down and outsource it.
There are probably a lot of things that the government should not be
involved in. I can think of lots of things that he government is
spending on that I think are a waste of time and money. But as far as
services go, the provincial government is a shadow of its former self.
The Ministry of Transportation has privatized most of its work. While
they used to contract a lot of construction and maintenance work out and
have inspectors overseeing it, it's entirely contracted in most areas.
It was interesting that the two strikes during the Harris years led to
comments about the civil service unions holding everyone hostage and
they wanted to break the union. MTO privatized driver examination. The
private company that now tests drivers has been on strike for more than
two months, longer than when OPSEU went on strike.
From what I saw in my ministry, contractors worked cheap in bad times
and when trying to undercut on jobs that the ministry had the men and
equipment to do themselves. As soon as the ministry got rid of their
staff and equipment the contractors had them by the short and curlies
and jacked up their prices. A few years ago I was talking to some of
the guys I used to know from the sign crew. They were driving around
attaching smallexit number signs on the big overhead signs. Each one was
about a 10 minute job. The contractor was going to charge $1200 to
install each of those. Luckily, the ministry still had a sign crew.
Contracting out specialty jobs or extra workload can be a good idea.
Contracting everything ends up costing more.
Canuck57
> So, basically, it means that the income disparity in the private
> sector is much biger than in the public sector.
A good way to put it. Having an uncompetative labour market that
favours employers for so long, it allows them to lower the wages. And
Canada is not a cheap place to live. Wages must be high or quite
frankly, it isn't worth living here. After tax tak is pathetic. It is
also why immigration is loose as a goose. Lets face it, your willing to
relocate, would you choose USA or Canada? If you said Canada, you
haven't traveled much.
At this time of year Mexicans with thin blood second guess why they are
here with a utility bill so big it shocks them while they shiver.
There is no shortage of labour in Canada. There is a shortage of those
willing to work and a shortage of those willing to pay a fair rate. 60%
of Canadians are underpaid and over taxed.
Canuck57
> "Chom Noamsky" <ba...@dogg.comm> wrote in message
> news:Z4kHm.51089$PH1.49435@edtnps82...>> news:0358546c-1920-4ac9...@t2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Actually, I think there have been several instances of people
>>> abandoning government careers and getting into the private sector
>>> because the pay there is several dozen times bigger than with
>>> government. Top of my head, I think that Mike Harris, Mulroney, and
>>> several conservative politicians left government because they could
>>> get much more in the private sector.
>> doesn't mean the average private sector worker is making better money.
>> Government is where people who couldn't make it in the private sector end
>> up.
>
> public service, and the public service has specialties that don't exist
> in the private sector.
>
> It depends on what service you can provide and what you want to participate
> in.
>
> Mulroney didn't leave for better money. He was making very good money being
> a high priced lawyer before seeking the leadership.
1/3rd tax free and non-taxable cash incentives was Mulroney's incentive.
Hell, Liberals even paid him $2.1 million non-taxable settlement. For
what? My gues sis to keep the lid on the corruption.
Don't put Mulroney la Crook on a pedistal. He is a symbol of Ottawa
corruption and greed and what happens when government gets too much
money and too big.
Really want to fix it? Have Ottawa (and provinces) cut all spending
that is not benefiting all of their consituants equally. Then cut the
civil service in 1/2 or less starting at the top. Less than 25% of what
Ottawa spends can 95% of Canadians enjoy in some way at some time. The
rest is secular pork and BS waste.
Commentator
> "postretro" <rf...@shaw.ca> wrote in
> news:T7jHm.8719$Js....@newsfe10.iad:
>
>> These overpaid slugs now earn 26% more than private sector workers.
>>
>> The have sabbaticals, 5 figure retirement gratuity cheques and well
>> funded, failure proof indexed pensions , entertainment expense
>> accounts. Trips to resorts for meetings.....
>>
>> They are the NDP's power base. Most tradesmen despise the NDP.
>>
> Bullshit. They have unions too. And the NDP is the only party that
> gives a shit about union members. There was a disagreement between
> the provincial workers when Rae ordered them back when they went on
> an illegal walkout. Other than the effect of the lies made up to
> twist these facts, there's
> no split.
>
>> Bob Rae during his Socialist Phase (he's belonged to most parties,
>> as it suited him)
>
> NDP provincially and Liberal Federally. There are now 5 federal
> parties that hold seats in the house of commons. Where does your word
> most come from?
>
>> They are the controlling stock holder in: Royal Bank, Cadillac
>> Fairview, Mccain Foods, 50% of all index funds and hundreds more
>> significant securities -- a total of $100,000,000.
>>
> Bullshit. Common sharesholders have absolutely no say in company
> policy. They can't even attend annual stockholders meetings.
Although generally true, large institutional investors hold great sway.
Companies CAN ignore them, but rarely do.
klunk
"Archie" <aken...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:cf66edd1-fc60-4704...@g1g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
lol... another projection, starchie...?... considering the vehemence you've
dumped in many of your own posts, it would now appear you've chosen to
return to your fallback position of ego-masturbating hypocrisy... but,
that's okay... I understand how nimrods must seize every opportunity they
can to mitigate the pain of their insecurity and so, I'll throw you a bone
out of pity.... meditations can assume many different forms... even those
which someone with little more than an instinctual apprehension of the world
might interpret as a loss of control... and such a misapprehension is often
the result of an inability to truly process experiences beyond a
two-dimensional level.... you are welcome for this freebie.... ;-)
klunk
"Commentator" <comme...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:CeNHm.29545$ha1....@news.usenetserver.com...
iow, you are clearly too stupid to begin to comprehend the many implications
in the many varied facets of the issues I introduced... which is exactly as
I expected... and thus the reason for conveying them on a level you would
recognize... even if you are too afraid to admit that the lack of control
over emotion was exactly what drove you to post your unthinking bit of
stupidity in the first place... and like most cowardly morons, you shrink
from the shit you dump when it falls back onto your own lap... ;-)
>>
>> obtw... you may not give a shit about things like melamine and lead
>> because it didn't directly affect your navel, but I'm certain you'd
>> be the first one crying "foul" if the cheap toothpaste you bought
>> rotted your teeth out of your mouth... and it's quite clear you don't
>> give a flying fuck about some teenager in china working 16 hour days
>> to crawl into their stacked cubby-hole for a couple of hours before
>> returning to their days as cattle for their masters the next day; but
>> I'm also quite certain you'd be the first and loudest whiner of the
>> bunch if you found yourself bearing such a bare existence...
>>
>> and to dumb it down even more for you, stupid... you get what you pay
>> for... there's no such thing as cheap when your slave wages can't pay
>> for a decent lifestyle or when your manufacturing plant gets shut
>> down and you have no income...
>>
>> try thinking outside of your glory hole for a change.... ;-)
>
> IOW, your bias causes you to assume that I am one of the evil conspirators
> because I have the temerity to not vehemently and blindly agree with all
> you have to say.
nope... I gave you nothing which you needed to either agree or disagree
with... only a taste of a bigger world than what has been dreamt of in your
myopic philosophy, dressed up with the same sort of vehement disdain you
presented in the first place... and now that you've seen it from an
externalized perspective, you shirk in fear of it...
> And all of this without any idea of who I am or what I think about the
> likes of made in China products or WalMart.
exactly my point... you didn't think about anything beyond your knee-jerk
reactionarianism... ;-)
Archie
> "Archie" <akenn...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
Wow. That's a lot of really big words. You must be super educated.
Dave Smith
>>>
>>> As you can read further above, while phoning my customers, the point of
>>> watching the street and my parking area - through a 6' x 5' sliding glass
>>> balcony door with no curtains, was that I was constantly having these
>>> noble, underpaid, pedagogue's vistors stealing mine and tenants parking
>>> spaces, every month, and the professor calling me obscene names for
>>> mentionning it.
>>
>> Oh. I see. You irrational rant against civil servants and teachers is
>> rooted not only in your confusion about levels of government and the
>> different unions involved in these issues, but that some bastard
>> professor used the wrong parking space.
>
>
> "Rants" against civil servants are neither irrational or unjustified,
> given the great disparity between government employees at all levels
> and the private sector.
His was. His OP claimed that civil servants get sabbaticals retirement
gratuities, entertainment expense accounts etc. He attributed the
elimination of Gr. 13 to Bob Rae, and in another post said that the
federal government added another 8% to the teacher pension fund.He back
tracked a bit on the retirement gratuity and said that it was unused
sick leave. The Ontario civil service used to be able to accumulate sick
leave and if they had any left at retirement got paid a portion of it on
retirement. That ended back in 1979.
He based his estimate of teachers working hours on his observation of a
neighbour he was spying on and he was upset because the husband stole
his parking space.
That is an irrational rant.
> One can hardly blame the civil servants for
> cashing the cheques and collecting the benefits, but certainly the
> blame has to lay at the feet of the politicians who have allowed this
> disparity to increase year after year.
That goes up and down with the times. Back in the 70s when I started in
the government I was making about the same as a friend in a similar job
in the private sector. I had two promotions in two years, but my friend
in the private sector was earning more than I was. For several years
our collective bargaining got job up security instead of raises. Then
the Harris government came along and offered no raise and wanted to
eliminate the job security clauses in order to make it easier for them
to slash the number of employees in order to contract out services in
accordance with their agenda which assumed that privatizing was cheaper
than having their own employees. It is not.
> It is not only Canadian
> taxpayers that are being used by politicians to bankroll the
> bureaucracy, but in most other Western democracies. In the U.S., the
> so called 'stimulus' that Washington is bragging about the jobs it
> created is failing to let the public know that most of those jobs are
> in federal, state and local governments, thus increasing the needs for
> more tax dollars to pay them down the road. Recirculated tax dollars
> do little to bolster the economy.
There are the civil servants and there was politicians and bureaucrats.
The front line workers should not be confused with the elected officials
and and their well placed and well compensated lackies who spend more
money making sure people think they are being paid for voting for the
right people than for what they actually do.
Look at how the stimulus money is being spent here. Each civic project
will have a sign for each level of government so they know where their
tax money is going. Those signs cost money.
Speaking of signs.... when the Harris government amalgamated school
boards in order to save money of duplicate services the local school
boards put up expensive new signs in front of each school. Where the
local schools used to only have the school name on the school building,
they erected new signs out in front with the name of the school and the
name of the school board. They never bothered school board name before.
MI Wakefield
"fred" <fr...@bedrock.rock> wrote in message
news:Xns9CB76FB...@127.0.0.1...
> "postretro" <rf...@shaw.ca> wrote in news:T7jHm.8719$Js....@newsfe10.iad:
>
>> These overpaid slugs now earn 26% more than private sector workers.
>>
>> The have sabbaticals, 5 figure retirement gratuity cheques and well
>> funded, failure proof indexed pensions , entertainment expense accounts.
>> Trips to resorts for meetings.....
>>
>> They are the NDP's power base. Most tradesmen despise the NDP.
>>
> Bullshit. They have unions too. And the NDP is the only party that gives a
> shit about union members. There was a disagreement between the provincial
> workers when Rae ordered them back when they went on an illegal walkout.
> Other than the effect of the lies made up to twist these facts, there's
> no split.
>
>> Bob Rae during his Socialist Phase (he's belonged to most parties, as it
>> suited him)
>
> NDP provincially and Liberal Federally. There are now 5 federal parties
> that hold seats in the house of commons. Where does your word most come
> from?
>
>> They are the controlling stock holder in: Royal Bank, Cadillac Fairview,
>> Mccain Foods, 50% of all index funds and hundreds more significant
>> securities -- a total of $100,000,000.
>>
> Bullshit. Common sharesholders have absolutely no say in company policy.
> They can't even attend annual stockholders meetings.
Wrong. Every owner of common shares is entitled to attend annual meetings,
and every owner of common shares is entitled to put forward proposals to be
voted on at said meetings.
postretro
"MI Wakefield" <bed...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4af0676f$0$1602$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Hear , hear. And then we have Govt. workers patron demon, Jack Layton
--1969 - He led a violent protest, with injuries, cars burned and people
attacked for 'McGill en Francais'. That's right, the University that was
founded and paid for by English Quebeckers 200 years ago was an
embarrassment
to Comrade Layton and his separatist friends.
So double crossing most of his ancestors who were staunch Canadians and well
placed politicians, he helped lead the riot to ban the English language
there. A year later he changed his
tune as no Anglophones were speaking to him, and moved to T O -- to be a
professor at York U of course.
1999 - He egged on the 'poor' people's coalition ( all of whom had nice
living arrangements) safe 6 blocks to the rear, on his bicycle, while they
attempted to storm the Ontario Provincial Legislature
Early 2000s - A well entitled Jack Layton and his wife were uncovered living
in public
housing while extracting well over 200K a year from the Toronto Treasury.
"We were
framed Layton snivelled, our comrades in T.O. Public Housing assured us $750
per month was
market rent".
He still keeps in touch with PQ Separatists, and can be found by searching
Google on: 'Jack Layton, 1969 Montreal, Oui j'ai manifeste pour le McGill en
francais'
Translation, 'Yes I demonstrated (or rioted) for McGill All French, Only'
Like all communist tyrants, he has little respect for his peasant party
members' intelligence who he was sure would never hear about his separatist
cheer leading
in Montreal.
Want more proof? Link below >> L'Actualite is the equivalent Macleans
Magazine of Quebec
http://www.lactualite.com/politique/la-gauche-le-quebec-et-jack-layton?page=0,1
postretro
> E. Barry Bruyea wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> As you can read further above, while phoning my customers, the point of
>>>> watching the street and my parking area - through a 6' x 5' sliding
>>>> glass balcony door with no curtains, was that I was constantly having
>>>> these noble, underpaid, pedagogue's vistors stealing mine and tenants
>>>> parking spaces, every month, and the professor calling me obscene names
>>>> for mentionning it.
>>>
>>> Oh. I see. You irrational rant against civil servants and teachers is
>>> rooted not only in your confusion about levels of government and the
>>> different unions involved in these issues, but that some bastard
>>> professor used the wrong parking space.
>>
>>
>> "Rants" against civil servants are neither irrational or unjustified,
>> given the great disparity between government employees at all levels
>> and the private sector.
>
> His was. His OP claimed that civil servants get sabbaticals retirement
> gratuities, entertainment expense accounts etc. He attributed the
> elimination of Gr. 13 to Bob Rae,
I did not, you are a pathological liar, and I daresay you've been fired a
lot
and in another post said that the
> federal government added another 8%
Wrong Herr Schmidt, you continue to twist things. Do you have OCD?
to the teacher pension fund.He back
> tracked a bit on the retirement gratuity and said that it was unused sick
> leave.
Get a job, you are also off base about teachers & other provinces
The Ontario civil service used to be able to accumulate sick
> leave and if they had any left at retirement got paid a portion of it on
> retirement. That ended back in 1979.
Not for B C Teachers whose revenue derives from property taxes, they also
got a signing bonus of
$4000 in the last round of contract extortions. And they seem so surprised
that private schools now have close to 15% of all students
>
> He based his estimate of teachers working hours on his observation of a
> neighbour he was spying on and he was upset because the husband stole his
> parking space.
>
> That is an irrational rant.
It's what demographers and marketing people call a case study. Sorry, I
forgot that you become hysterical when confronted by ideas outside your
smelly little socialist orthodoxies.
Dave Smith
> "Dave Smith" <adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:4af0361a$0$1585$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
>> E. Barry Bruyea wrote:
>>
>>>>> As you can read further above, while phoning my customers, the point of
>>>>> watching the street and my parking area - through a 6' x 5' sliding
>>>>> glass balcony door with no curtains, was that I was constantly having
>>>>> these noble, underpaid, pedagogue's vistors stealing mine and tenants
>>>>> parking spaces, every month, and the professor calling me obscene names
>>>>> for mentionning it.
>>>> Oh. I see. You irrational rant against civil servants and teachers is
>>>> rooted not only in your confusion about levels of government and the
>>>> different unions involved in these issues, but that some bastard
>>>> professor used the wrong parking space.
>>>
>>> "Rants" against civil servants are neither irrational or unjustified,
>>> given the great disparity between government employees at all levels
>>> and the private sector.
>> His was. His OP claimed that civil servants get sabbaticals retirement
>> gratuities, entertainment expense accounts etc. He attributed the
>> elimination of Gr. 13 to Bob Rae,
>
> I did not, you are a pathological liar, and I daresay you've been fired a
> lot
Cutting and pasting from your post on Nov.1:
> These overpaid slugs now earn 26% more than private sector workers.
>
> The have sabbaticals, 5 figure retirement gratuity cheques and well
> funded,failure proof indexed pensions , entertainment expense
> accounts. Trips to resorts for meetings.....
Everyone is welcome to go back to your OP and verify it. You probably
have no idea how pathetic you appear to call me a liar for pointing out
what you said when it is there for all the world to see.
>
> and in another post said that the
>> federal government added another 8%
>
> Wrong Herr Schmidt, you continue to twist things. Do you have OCD?
Cutting and pasting from another post by you on Nov.1:
> Plus the 8% the feds added compounded for 30 or 40 years
Hate to break it to you, but citing your own comments is not twisting.
You are stupid enough to say those things and too stupid to realize that
you cannot deny them once they are posted. Once again, they are there
for anyone to see.
>
> to the teacher pension fund.He back
>> tracked a bit on the retirement gratuity and said that it was unused sick
>> leave.
>
> Get a job, you are also off base about teachers & other provinces
>
> The Ontario civil service used to be able to accumulate sick
>> leave and if they had any left at retirement got paid a portion of it on
>> retirement. That ended back in 1979.
>
> Not for B C Teachers whose revenue derives from property taxes, they also
> got a signing bonus of
> $4000 in the last round of contract extortions.
You weren't talking about BC teachers. You specifically mentioned Bob
Rae and mentioned the elimination of Gr.13. You may remember that I
pointed out that the elimination of Gr.13 was first recommended back in
1973 and was announced by John Snobelen who was the education minister
under Harris..... Conservatives, not NDP, not Bob Rae.
>> He based his estimate of teachers working hours on his observation of a
>> neighbour he was spying on and he was upset because the husband stole his
>> parking space.
>>
>> That is an irrational rant.
>
> It's what demographers and marketing people call a case study. Sorry, I
> forgot that you become hysterical when confronted by ideas outside your
> smelly little socialist orthodoxies.
No. It is what is called anecdotal evidence.
klunk
"Archie" <aken...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:53ca9d52-da1c-4ce4...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
wow starchie... considering how none of the words I used are beyond
high-school level... you just can't help but to prove your stupidity...
postretro
The world does not revolve around your has been, have not province, which I
left to get away from nasty minded pin headed liberal socialists like you.
klunk
"postretro" <rf...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Yc6Im.8529$Mg....@newsfe01.iad...
apparently, you didn't get far enough away.... ;-)
Commentator
Every now and again I come back to this newsgroup.
I never seem to be here very long before I remember why I keep giving up on
it. Too many looney tunes who are not capable of a sensible conversation.
klunk
"Commentator" <comme...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:OS7Im.31$Q1...@news.usenetserver.com...
actually, I was going to give you the same style of flame I normally give
irrational idiots, but I reread your comments and realized you're not that
far gone... and so, I'll tell you this....
"Wrap it up in whatever words you want, but wishing otherwise does not make
this false."
this sentence of yours is what was responsible for my perception that you
had no interest in reasoned discourse because such an assertion is at best,
a misrepresentation of my post to you.... and a falsehood on its own...
therefore indicating to me that you were simply trolling...
consumers do and always have and always will look for the best prices they
can get... which doesn't in any way translate into supporting your assertion
that consumers have driven manufacturing to china... that's also a falsehood
perpetuated by the very same businesses that have gone abroad for the sole
purpose of driving down the cost of labour in order to increase profit
margins and dividends to shareholders....
people such as yourself who buy into and perpetuate a mythos which only
benefits an incestuous circle of parasitic thieves are being entirely
insulting toward every person at the bottom of every totem pole who slave
every day to just barely get by and who are rewarded by being discarded like
used kleenex....
and so, yes... even though I didn't actually accuse you of being "an evil
conspirator" (because this phenomenon isn't a conspiracy to begin with), I
am saying that you are promoting a falsehood which arrives at "the doorstep
of evil" and "ripens the garden" for its exploitation....
Dave Smith
No, the world certainly does not revolve around Ontario, but your
original post in this thread certainly did because you specifically
mentioned the teachers union and Bob Rae.
Commentator
I work in Finance. I have worked with manufacturing companies that either
directly supply goods to retailers like WalMart, or who supply materials to
large consumer goods companies like P&G who supply to retailers like
WalMart. The reality of the situation is that WalMart has tremendous
pricing power - they have gotten to the size that they can make or break a
supplier by offering or declining shelf space. This enables them to take
"take it or leave it" positions in pricing negotiations. Many of their
suppliers, to survive, take it, then go back to figure out how to make it
work and still make a profit - any profit - rather than take a loss. They
in turn push back on their suppliers, and so it goes. Materials provide
significantly less room to squeeze than do labour costs - commodities are
priced on the global market, labour on the local market. So labour gets
squeezed. Pretty soon there is now room left to squeezw without looking
elsewhere, lower wage locations. Any company who does this, all other costs
being equal, should see an immediate jump in profits due to those lower
costs. HOWEVER, to NOT make the move can be equally likely to result in
losses. This isn't just about increasing profits, it is about avoiding
losses. The alternative is to shut down a money losing enterprise, which
still kills the jobs. The above focusses on WalMart, but as goes WalMart so
goes anyone else who wants to compete with them. So they also look for low
cost suppliers.
So no, it is not for the sole purpose of increasing profit margins. It is
to feed the consumer and the ongoing demand for more, for less. Every
consumer has the option of buying products made in North America, products
that result in wages for our friends and neighbours. While many will agree
with the concept, when it comes down to the family budget the overwhelming
majority choose the lower price rather tha the local wages.
>
> people such as yourself who buy into and perpetuate a mythos which
> only benefits an incestuous circle of parasitic thieves are being
> entirely insulting toward every person at the bottom of every totem
> pole who slave every day to just barely get by and who are rewarded
> by being discarded like used kleenex....
>
> and so, yes... even though I didn't actually accuse you of being "an
> evil conspirator" (because this phenomenon isn't a conspiracy to
> begin with), I am saying that you are promoting a falsehood which
> arrives at "the doorstep of evil" and "ripens the garden" for its
> exploitation....
And I disagree withe the idea that this is a falsehood. This is not to say
that corporations are altruistic, becasue they are not. It is not to say
they they would not or do not pump the profits at every opportunity, because
they do. But the bottom line is if people want the *lowest* price, they
will not get it with North American wages, they will get it with goods made
offshore.
klunk
"Commentator" <comme...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:5RrIm.586$%a7....@news.usenetserver.com...
which has been artificially set through the process you've just described
above... were it not for pressure from a multinational giant like walmart,
then prices and incomes would more naturally adjust to adapt to local
economies.. as it stands, the fact that companies have to go to countries
like like china which are both rampant with exploitation and a horrific
lifestyle for the average labourer only creates conditions of rampant
poverty here as people are forced to abandon any form of dream of improving
their standard of living here while everyone who is suffering is forced into
a vicious cycle of buying from companies like walmart who are actually
creating this race to the bottom... and all the while, their shareholders
are increasing their profits at our expense.... being in finance as you've
claimed, you should be more than aware of this broader picture... by
choosing to focus on the cost of goods to consumers as the driver of this
phenomenon is extraordinarily short-sighted for someone of your
background... and even more insulting to labourers....
> Every consumer has the option of buying products made in North America,
> products that result in wages for our friends and neighbours. While many
> will agree with the concept, when it comes down to the family budget the
> overwhelming majority choose the lower price rather tha the local wages.
which, again is not an explanation for the dramatically increasing gap
between top-level and front-line incomes... or for the dramatically
shrinking middle class... but it is an excuse which has been perpetuated by
those who exploit this shift for their personal, material gain....
>>
>> people such as yourself who buy into and perpetuate a mythos which
>> only benefits an incestuous circle of parasitic thieves are being
>> entirely insulting toward every person at the bottom of every totem
>> pole who slave every day to just barely get by and who are rewarded
>> by being discarded like used kleenex....
>>
>> and so, yes... even though I didn't actually accuse you of being "an
>> evil conspirator" (because this phenomenon isn't a conspiracy to
>> begin with), I am saying that you are promoting a falsehood which
>> arrives at "the doorstep of evil" and "ripens the garden" for its
>> exploitation....
>
> And I disagree withe the idea that this is a falsehood. This is not to
> say that corporations are altruistic, becasue they are not. It is not to
> say they they would not or do not pump the profits at every opportunity,
> because they do. But the bottom line is if people want the *lowest*
> price, they will not get it with North American wages, they will get it
> with goods made offshore.
nope... people don't actually want "the lowest prices".... what they want is
the best price for the best quality they can afford... your characterization
of this is not only half of the real story, it is also part of the
despicable mythos forwarded by sociopaths and their dupes.... and it is
extremely insulting to people that you would regard them with such
disrespect for their judgment....
for an example which blows your hypothesis out of the water, think
"lada".... then come back and discuss this issue from a perspective which
doesn't insult your own profession as much as you seem to want to insult
everyone else...
Dave Smith
> nope... people don't actually want "the lowest prices".... what they want is
> the best price for the best quality they can afford... your characterization
> of this is not only half of the real story, it is also part of the
> despicable mythos forwarded by sociopaths and their dupes.... and it is
> extremely insulting to people that you would regard them with such
> disrespect for their judgment....
I think that you have to admit that while some people want the best
price for the quality they can afford, too many people look only at
price. Others are smart enough to realize that it is worth the extra
money to buy a product that will last. There is no bargain in paying $20
for a pair of jeans that last a month, but it is difficult for a lot of
people to spend 4 times that for a pair that will last for two years.
Unfortunately, the quality supplies lose too much business to the cheap
products and lower prices and end up going out of business.
klunk
"Dave Smith" <adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4af2d7c6$0$1616$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
people tend to either be "cost based" or "value based" in their purchasing
decisions.... but no one wants to spend money on something they know they're
going to be unsatisfied with... particularly if they know that purchase is
also only going to cost more in the long run...
the people you've cited in your argument who have difficulties making a
purchase of "reasonable quality" are exactly those that are struggling with
the byproduct of downward pressure from the globalization of labour which
has resulted in their incomes being lower than what we had once come to
expect as a "reasonable standard of living".... (we are, of course,
speaking in very general terms and not about the many varied additional
scenarios which can affect one's purchasing decision, such as intentionally
making a purchase with disposability in mind)....
Commentator
It is the key driver. People can easily choose not to shop at the WalMarts
of the world. They don't. They can easily choose not to buy made in China.
They don't. This is primairily a demand side phemomena.
>> Every consumer has the option of buying products made in North
>> America, products that result in wages for our friends and
>> neighbours. While many will agree with the concept, when it comes
>> down to the family budget the overwhelming majority choose the lower
>> price rather tha the local wages.
>
> which, again is not an explanation for the dramatically increasing gap
> between top-level and front-line incomes... or for the dramatically
> shrinking middle class... but it is an excuse which has been
> perpetuated by those who exploit this shift for their personal,
> material gain....
It is a partial explanation. With the shift of manufacturing jobs offshore,
the jobs that are left are service oriented jobs, more often part time,
almost always paying less.
The full story takes in issues of government intervention & regulation,
availability of affordable educational opportunities, taxation policies,
social welfare policies and a host of related isues.
>
>
>>>
>>> people such as yourself who buy into and perpetuate a mythos which
>>> only benefits an incestuous circle of parasitic thieves are being
>>> entirely insulting toward every person at the bottom of every totem
>>> pole who slave every day to just barely get by and who are rewarded
>>> by being discarded like used kleenex....
>>>
>>> and so, yes... even though I didn't actually accuse you of being "an
>>> evil conspirator" (because this phenomenon isn't a conspiracy to
>>> begin with), I am saying that you are promoting a falsehood which
>>> arrives at "the doorstep of evil" and "ripens the garden" for its
>>> exploitation....
>>
>> And I disagree withe the idea that this is a falsehood. This is not
>> to say that corporations are altruistic, becasue they are not. It
>> is not to say they they would not or do not pump the profits at
>> every opportunity, because they do. But the bottom line is if
>> people want the *lowest* price, they will not get it with North
>> American wages, they will get it with goods made offshore.
>
> nope... people don't actually want "the lowest prices".... what they
> want is the best price for the best quality they can afford... your
> characterization of this is not only half of the real story, it is
> also part of the despicable mythos forwarded by sociopaths and their
> dupes.... and it is extremely insulting to people that you would
> regard them with such disrespect for their judgment....
Call it disrespect if you like, but what I see all around me is people
wanting more for less. If they need to buy made in China so they can also
buy the flat screen tv, they will do so. I am simply observing what I see.
And FWIW, made in NA by union labour does not always mean better quality.
Nor does a higher price. Sometimes it is the same quality, just a lower
price.
>
> for an example which blows your hypothesis out of the water, think
> "lada".... then come back and discuss this issue from a perspective
> which doesn't insult your own profession as much as you seem to want
> to insult everyone else...
Observing what people do is not insulting them. No, they will not *always*
buy the lowest price good. This is (for me) a conversation of the general
case. Get to specifics examples, and you will find examples that will
support any conceivable point of view. The general case, and the general
trend, is that people are buying the cheaper alternatives. Many people are
just as happy with a knock off as they are with the "real thing".
klunk
"Commentator" <comme...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:EjLIm.1$fa...@news.usenetserver.com...
lol... you are confusing cause with consequence... it is not at all the
driver but merely the results of downward pressure by large operations which
squeeze out competition through exploitation...
>>> Every consumer has the option of buying products made in North
>>> America, products that result in wages for our friends and
>>> neighbours. While many will agree with the concept, when it comes
>>> down to the family budget the overwhelming majority choose the lower
>>> price rather tha the local wages.
>>
>> which, again is not an explanation for the dramatically increasing gap
>> between top-level and front-line incomes... or for the dramatically
>> shrinking middle class... but it is an excuse which has been
>> perpetuated by those who exploit this shift for their personal,
>> material gain....
>
> It is a partial explanation. With the shift of manufacturing jobs
> offshore, the jobs that are left are service oriented jobs, more often
> part time, almost always paying less.
>
> The full story takes in issues of government intervention & regulation,
> availability of affordable educational opportunities, taxation policies,
> social welfare policies and a host of related isues.
this much is true only to the degree that it touches on the consequences,
and not the causes... ultimately, the drivers of an inept approach toward
globalization is driven by those in the position to most benefit from
legislation and international agreements which benefit a small and
incestuous circle at the expense of everyone else...
lol... call it what you will, but it is an inordinately short-sighted
perspective by someone who should know better because cost and value are
subjectively derived phenomena which are created by manufacturing perception
and expectations... iow... if people weren't being forced into accepting
shrinking incomes, they would also choose to not make purchasing decisions
which increasingly become dominated by the immediate cost factor.... and
so... since this really IS basic economics we are discussing, and since
you've claimed to be in finance - which would mean, if true, that you
actually do know better, then it is only reasonable to conclude that your
actions here are motivated by a need to spread disinformation....
>>
>> for an example which blows your hypothesis out of the water, think
>> "lada".... then come back and discuss this issue from a perspective
>> which doesn't insult your own profession as much as you seem to want
>> to insult everyone else...
>
> Observing what people do is not insulting them. No, they will not
> *always* buy the lowest price good. This is (for me) a conversation of
> the general case. Get to specifics examples, and you will find examples
> that will support any conceivable point of view. The general case, and
> the general trend, is that people are buying the cheaper alternatives.
> Many people are just as happy with a knock off as they are with the "real
> thing".
lol.... there's a difference between observation and characterization... the
real trend is that people have less disposable income than they had only a
few decades ago and are now increasingly finding their purchasing options
more and more limited.... I DID give you a *specific* example with the
lada... your example of a "general case" is such a disconnected
mischaracterization of reality which only reveals a very dubious agenda that
expresses itself as a short-sighted value judgment on the most desperate of
our populations' citizenry.... to say that people are buying cheaper
alternatives is the same as saying people are choosing to drink clean water
instead of sewer water... it is not only a meaningless claim, it is as empty
as an insincere platitude... and as devoid of intelligent analysis as one
can get away with while furthering an agenda of exploitation....
postretro
model
"Commentator" <comme...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:EjLIm.1$fa...@news.usenetserver.com...
klunk
"postretro" <rf...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:5B_Im.3509$%j4....@newsfe18.iad...
> You people are all sociopaths, and you probably have Jack Layton as a rold
> model
ROTFLMAO.... yep... trust an imbecilic reichtoid to provide their version of
"intelligent insight".... I must congratulate you however... with such
sublime brevity, you've managed to encapsulate in amazingly succinct terms,
just how to identify the truest sources of our societies' ills....
congratulations!... I'd recommend your post to a literary hall of fame but I
believe psychoanalysts are more likely to be more appreciative of the
substance of your post..... ;-)
Canuck57
> This recession we're in showed just how strong corporate types were in slashing union
> positions, union wages, and in time, getting YOUR tax dollars to 'bail them out'. You
> didn't see unionized workers getting any bail outs.
Union clowns however were all behind the GM baiouts. Ready to have buzz
needle Layton to bribe the Bloc for a coupe d'etat last Christmas.
Dumb idiots laid off are getting the real leasons about GM bailout now,
it was never about saving jobs union or otherwise. It was about pure
corruption to use GM as a sink hole for money borrowed on the taxpayers
tab. Ottawa and DC screwed us all.
It is why we need to seriously question the size of Ottawa and how much
they overspend. But probably too late. No one today will ever see the
government debt decrease in any signifigant way. The NA economy is
shot. Blead to death by Liberalism, NDP and unionists.
Commentator
We could argue this all day. There is a reason why you can never get
economists to agree.
I believe it is demand driven, not supply driven, and you have not said
anything to convince me otherwise.
>
>
>>>> Every consumer has the option of buying products made in North
>>>> America, products that result in wages for our friends and
>>>> neighbours. While many will agree with the concept, when it comes
>>>> down to the family budget the overwhelming majority choose the
>>>> lower price rather tha the local wages.
>>>
>>> which, again is not an explanation for the dramatically increasing
>>> gap between top-level and front-line incomes... or for the
>>> dramatically shrinking middle class... but it is an excuse which
>>> has been perpetuated by those who exploit this shift for their
>>> personal, material gain....
>>
>> It is a partial explanation. With the shift of manufacturing jobs
>> offshore, the jobs that are left are service oriented jobs, more
>> often part time, almost always paying less.
>>
>> The full story takes in issues of government intervention &
>> regulation, availability of affordable educational opportunities,
>> taxation policies, social welfare policies and a host of related
>> isues.
>
> this much is true only to the degree that it touches on the
> consequences, and not the causes... ultimately, the drivers of an
> inept approach toward globalization is driven by those in the
> position to most benefit from legislation and international
> agreements which benefit a small and incestuous circle at the expense
> of everyone else...
Same comment as above... I think we will have to agree to disagree.
But at least I think that we can both agree the result is less than
desireable, to put it mildly.
We have no home grown companies left of any size, our manufacturing sector
is shrinking every day, and there are few good paying jobs to replace those
lost. This hurts us all.
You are way too cynical. Suffice to say, anecdotal I know but nonetheless,
I know people who make significantly less than me yet have many more toys
than me, all bought on price, not quality.
>
>
>>>
>>> for an example which blows your hypothesis out of the water, think
>>> "lada".... then come back and discuss this issue from a perspective
>>> which doesn't insult your own profession as much as you seem to want
>>> to insult everyone else...
>>
>> Observing what people do is not insulting them. No, they will not
>> *always* buy the lowest price good. This is (for me) a conversation
>> of the general case. Get to specifics examples, and you will find
>> examples that will support any conceivable point of view. The
>> general case, and the general trend, is that people are buying the
>> cheaper alternatives. Many people are just as happy with a knock off
>> as they are with the "real thing".
>
> lol.... there's a difference between observation and
> characterization... the real trend is that people have less
> disposable income than they had only a few decades ago and are now
> increasingly finding their purchasing options more and more
> limited....
Yet they still "have" to keep up, get the XBOX and the flat screen TV, etc.,
so in order to do that they must buy on price or go deeper into debt or both
to keep up.
Look, anything *anyone* presents here is a characterization. It is their
interpretation of what they observe. So that statement means nothing to me.
I could as easily have made the same statement to you and meant it, but
making that statement does nothing to convince me of your position. Rather,
it makes me take you less seriously.
>I DID give you a *specific* example with the lada... your
> example of a "general case" is such a disconnected
> mischaracterization of reality which only reveals a very dubious
> agenda that expresses itself as a short-sighted value judgment on the
> most desperate of our populations' citizenry.... to say that people
> are buying cheaper alternatives is the same as saying people are
> choosing to drink clean water instead of sewer water... it is not
> only a meaningless claim, it is as empty as an insincere platitude...
> and as devoid of intelligent analysis as one can get away with while
> furthering an agenda of exploitation....
I am neither making a value judgement nor furthering an agenda. If you
choose to believe otherwise... <shrug>
Commentator
> You people are all sociopaths, and you probably have Jack Layton as a
> rold model
Sure, of course Happy Jack is my role model LOL.
It's clear that you figured me out, isn't it?
klunk
"Commentator" <comme...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:rb5Jm.8485$cq6...@news.usenetserver.com...
lol... which is a cop-out response on your behalf... and one which makes
clear you had no interest in being "convinced" otherwise...
the fact of the matter is that the desire for bargains is as old as trade
itself.... it is quite frankly, not possible for bargain hunters to impel
manufacturers to leave for distant shores which exploit labour... such can
only come about when one competitor slashes their costs by slashing their
largest expense... labour... yours is an argument which leads to a logical
conclusion of supporting slavery... it is just the sort of sociopathic
rationalization which pissed off the cotton farmers enough to start a civil
war...
>>
>>
>>>>> Every consumer has the option of buying products made in North
>>>>> America, products that result in wages for our friends and
>>>>> neighbours. While many will agree with the concept, when it comes
>>>>> down to the family budget the overwhelming majority choose the
>>>>> lower price rather tha the local wages.
>>>>
>>>> which, again is not an explanation for the dramatically increasing
>>>> gap between top-level and front-line incomes... or for the
>>>> dramatically shrinking middle class... but it is an excuse which
>>>> has been perpetuated by those who exploit this shift for their
>>>> personal, material gain....
>>>
>>> It is a partial explanation. With the shift of manufacturing jobs
>>> offshore, the jobs that are left are service oriented jobs, more
>>> often part time, almost always paying less.
>>>
>>> The full story takes in issues of government intervention &
>>> regulation, availability of affordable educational opportunities,
>>> taxation policies, social welfare policies and a host of related
>>> isues.
>>
>> this much is true only to the degree that it touches on the
>> consequences, and not the causes... ultimately, the drivers of an
>> inept approach toward globalization is driven by those in the
>> position to most benefit from legislation and international
>> agreements which benefit a small and incestuous circle at the expense
>> of everyone else...
>
> Same comment as above... I think we will have to agree to disagree.
lol... which leads me to repeating my response... you've chosen to run away
from an actual exploration of the issues because you know at heart that
you're peddling sociopathic rationalizations which lead to the destruction
of the middle class...
> But at least I think that we can both agree the result is less than
> desireable, to put it mildly.
the results are horrifying when one factors in the sheer extent of pain and
suffering the plutocracy inflicts upon this world before they push people so
far that they begin to rise up in a bloody revolution which where incidents
like today in florida will become common "inconveniences"....
> We have no home grown companies left of any size, our manufacturing sector
> is shrinking every day, and there are few good paying jobs to replace
> those lost. This hurts us all.
on this, we agree...
lol... if I were cynical, I would believe people are mostly inherently
evil... but I don't believe that... I believe good information leads to good
decisions, and given a sufficient understanding of reality in objective
terms, we share much more in the way of goals and ideologies than what is
superficially cultivated by media sensationalism and disinformation spread
by those whose goals are personal material achievement at the expense of
others... I also don't look at microcosms and believe they explain the
macrocosm, like you've done with your example...
>>>>
>>>> for an example which blows your hypothesis out of the water, think
>>>> "lada".... then come back and discuss this issue from a perspective
>>>> which doesn't insult your own profession as much as you seem to want
>>>> to insult everyone else...
>>>
>>> Observing what people do is not insulting them. No, they will not
>>> *always* buy the lowest price good. This is (for me) a conversation
>>> of the general case. Get to specifics examples, and you will find
>>> examples that will support any conceivable point of view. The
>>> general case, and the general trend, is that people are buying the
>>> cheaper alternatives. Many people are just as happy with a knock off
>>> as they are with the "real thing".
>>
>> lol.... there's a difference between observation and
>> characterization... the real trend is that people have less
>> disposable income than they had only a few decades ago and are now
>> increasingly finding their purchasing options more and more
>> limited....
>
> Yet they still "have" to keep up, get the XBOX and the flat screen TV,
> etc., so in order to do that they must buy on price or go deeper into debt
> or both to keep up.
>
> Look, anything *anyone* presents here is a characterization. It is their
> interpretation of what they observe. So that statement means nothing to
> me. I could as easily have made the same statement to you and meant it,
> but making that statement does nothing to convince me of your position.
> Rather, it makes me take you less seriously.
lol... interesting how you've leveled an accusation of meaninglessness when
your two paragraphs are entirely devoid if any rationalization which
addresses the fundamental argument forwarded in my one paragraph above...
are you saying that people don't actually have less disposable income, or
that their purchasing priorities are more concerned with luxuries than needs
or are you just dumping filler verbiage in a bid to dodge my statement
altogether...?...
>>I DID give you a *specific* example with the lada... your
>> example of a "general case" is such a disconnected
>> mischaracterization of reality which only reveals a very dubious
>> agenda that expresses itself as a short-sighted value judgment on the
>> most desperate of our populations' citizenry.... to say that people
>> are buying cheaper alternatives is the same as saying people are
>> choosing to drink clean water instead of sewer water... it is not
>> only a meaningless claim, it is as empty as an insincere platitude...
>> and as devoid of intelligent analysis as one can get away with while
>> furthering an agenda of exploitation....
>
> I am neither making a value judgement nor furthering an agenda. If you
> choose to believe otherwise... <shrug>
it matters not to my argument whether you are cognizant of the implications
of your position or not... your responses however, do demonstrate an
incapacity for truly examining your biases in an objective manner... which
just renders you a useful idiot for those whose agenda and mythos you
perpetuate... as well as a target of earned enmity in the same way that any
enabler of evil is.... ;-)
Commentator
> Commentator wrote
> "commie" Chow?
>
> Both are NDP feds. Jack's a Rhodes Scholar, like Kris
> Kristofferson.
>
> But he's a dummy. A left wing moron who replaced the great Ed
> Broadbent (grade 10) and Jack's from Montreal with a Ph. D. in poly
> sci!
>
> Ed was the greatest NDP leader ever, Jack? He wears $2,500 Canali
> suits and $300 neck ties! Ed was a grade 10 drop out, "Ed Broadbent
> French" was a colliqualism. But he was good. An ex union worker.
>
> Not like Mr. $Canali suits. Mr. Ph. D.
>
> I'm not even into the NDP, but I know the difference. Don't you?
I was walking on Sparks Street one day a couple of years ago. I see Jack
Layton approaching. He sees that I see him, and he sees that I recognize
him. I see the smile form, the hand start to come up, the expectation is
written all over his face that I *MUST* want to meet such a celebrity as he.
When I moved away from him the look on his face was priceless. The man is
so full of himself it is incredible.
Neil K
Don't underestimate Commentator.
I'm sure many of you recall the famous story of his audience with the pope.
It was a private audience in that he was alone with the pope, but it was
public in that it was held on the papal balcony.
After they appeared the waiting throng began to murmur:
" Who is that old guy in robes up there with Commentator?"
Chom Noamsky
> wing lasissez faire 'libertarians') have screwed it up hopelssly. I'd
> love to stand on the picket line you tried to cross.
I thought you were a socialist who believed in sharing the wealth? Why
should North America and Europe be entitled to great industrial wealth
forever and ever? Why shouldn't China and other parts of Asia get a
chance to escape poverty and live the good life? Everything you wrote
above reeks of "protect OUR markets OUR jobs OUR wealth, keep ASIANS
disadvantaged so we don't lose OUR ENTITLEMENT." You old Marxist
fossil, you're really just an ordinary protectionist. You despise that
Chinese labour is earning much more than they did just a couple of
decades and emerging from poverty.
Dave Smith
> I was walking on Sparks Street one day a couple of years ago. I see Jack
> Layton approaching. He sees that I see him, and he sees that I recognize
> him. I see the smile form, the hand start to come up, the expectation is
> written all over his face that I *MUST* want to meet such a celebrity as he.
> When I moved away from him the look on his face was priceless. The man is
> so full of himself it is incredible.
>
Let me understand this ...... you are boasting abut having snubbed a man
who doesn't even know you..... and HE is full of himself????
Commentator
Yup.
klunk
"Commentator" <comme...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:4U2Km.19057$9P7...@news.usenetserver.com...
wow... talk about being entirely clued out....
postretro
Klunk, you are the last rower on the river of the dead
"klunk" <kl...@theothershoo.org> wrote in message
news:iBtIm.2131$Zu5....@newsfe24.iad...
klunk
"postretro" <rf...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Q9C0n.2740$rL7....@newsfe23.iad...
>
> Klunk, you are the last rower on the river of the dead
posterity, you've just the made the dead scratch their heads wondering what
the fuck was the point of saving any effort for you... ;-)