Water Heater Scams (Ontario)
Edward Theodore Gein
their competitor, National Home Systems, is going door-to-door trying to
get people to change to their water heaters, and they're using some very
bizarre and dishonest tactics.
They'll tell you that they're "from the government" and you _have_ to
let them in to examine the water tank; they'll tell you that your black
PVC exhaust pipes are out of compliance with new code (this is actually
true, but you can keep the old pipe until you replace your furnace or
water heater, and they don't tell you that).
They'll tell you that Reliance has been sold to an American firm, and
"don't you want to deal with a Canadian company?" (in my case I don't
give a shit anyway).
They'll tell you that your tank is old and not Energy Star compliant
and polluting god's green earth and that they'll "give" you a
replacement free with no contract and then the contract is for 15 years
at inflated prices and impossible to get out of.
They'll tell you that they want you to sign this form so "my boss knows
I've been to this house" and the form will be a contract and they're
coming on Wednesday (get the thing installed before you're quick enough
to cancel the contract).
They're fucking scam artists, like the gas contract greaseballs.
Anyway, don't let them in.
Tell them "get off my property or I'll call the police."
Don't _ever_ get physical with them if it seems like they're overly
reluctant to leave, just don't be afraid to dial 911.
Ask it they mind if you take a photo of them when they come to the door.
Ask for _personal_ ID (not just the cute badge that NHS has made up for
them with some phony name on it).
Don't ever sign anything at all.
Remember, in Ontario, you have ten full days to cancel any contract
you've signed anyway. So, if you want, sign the damned thing and then
cancel it immediately; if lots and lots of people did this, it would
mess up some salesmen's would-be careers. I don't do this, though. I
either wave them away without opening the door, or tell them that I'm
not the owner, and that the landlord lives in Edmonton.
This is a link to the Reliance site about this:
http://www.burnedatthedoor.com/index.php
I don't work for Reliance. We've had 2 of their electric water heaters
for about 9 years, they're reasonably priced, no long term contract, and
any dealings we've had with the company have been as pleasant as they
need to be. The one service call we've made was answered within a few
hours (local electrician, too). They don't sell door-to-door.
Some Guy
> They'll tell you that they're "from the government" and you _have_
> to let them in to examine the water tank; they'll tell you that
> your black PVC exhaust pipes are out of compliance with new code
> (this is actually true, but you can keep the old pipe until you
> replace your furnace or water heater, and they don't tell you that).
Um, what gas water heaters have any sort of plastic exhaust vent pipes?
My 30-year-old water heater developed a leak about 4 years ago, and I
went to home despot and bought a new gas water heater and installed it
myself. Hooked right up to where my old one was. My venting is passive
(no draft motor/fan) and it vents into a metal pipe going into the
concrete wall (at the bottom where my chimney starts I guess). I doubt
that any sort of plastic could handle the heat.
I've had these water-heater bozo's come around my place this summer, and
I told them I own my water heater and it's only a few years old so go
away.
> They're fucking scam artists, like the gas contract greaseballs.
>
> Anyway, don't let them in.
>
> Tell them "get off my property or I'll call the police."
Heh. Yea, I'd do that if they were more pushy.
> I don't work for Reliance. We've had 2 of their electric water
> heaters for about 9 years, they're reasonably priced, no long
> term contract, (...)
Electric water heaters?
Who scammed you into getting electric water heaters?
Why 2? Did the first one burn out?
Edward Theodore Gein
> Electric water heaters?
>
> Who scammed you into getting electric water heaters?
>
> Why 2? Did the first one burn out?
We had the gas ones removed when we bought this duplex (one tank for
each house) because they were noisy and smelly and the company was
shitty do deal with and they cost like $40 _each_ a month. We don't have
a chimney, so they were vented outside via PVC pipe from the basement
using a turbo thing that made a hall of a racket.
The electric ones cost about $50 per _quarter_ for _both_ of them, and
Reliance are pretty easy to deal with. I know that over the long run
we're spending more on them than if we just bought them and paid
installation fees, but, hell, it's deductible.
Some Guy
> > Um, what gas water heaters have any sort of plastic exhaust vent
> > pipes?
>
> MOst energy efficient tankless water heaters.
On-demand (tankless) water heaters are a crock.
Facts:
1) Natural gas prices have been very low the past few years, and there's
no indication that's going to change in the next few years. Anything
you spend to reduce natural gas usage will have a proportionately small
return on investment given low gas prices.
2) Conventional hot-water tanks are pretty efficient from a
standing-loss standpoint, and what little heat they do radiate can be
reduced by a relatively cheap external insulation blanket. On the other
hand, the radiant heat loss from the tank is captured inside your house,
the advantage of which is proportional to your northern geographic
location (or as a function of altitude).
3) heat loss from a conventional tank flue is minimal if you have a
power-vented system (when the fan isin't turning, it's acting like a
baffle preventing air flow through the flue). I suppose a
power-operated shutter could be added to completely close the flue and
prevent heat loss when the burner is not on.
4) efficiency of heat transfer is inversely proportional to the heat
gradient. The burner of an on-demand heater needs to put out 10's of
thousands, even 100+ thousand BTU in order to heat incoming water during
the water's short residency time inside the heater for the water to
reach conventional hot-water temperature (typically 140 to 160 f). The
more north you are, the colder your incoming water supply will be, and
the more capacity (in BTU) the burners will need to be to bring the
water up to the desired temperature. Exhaust heat loss from these units
is significant while they are operating, and during their off-cycle as
they cool down they can't dump much heat energy into the water because
there isin't much water stored in the unit.
Conversely, the burner of a conventional water tank is capable of much
less BTU heating, and the heat from the burner has more time to come
into contact with the internal tank surface and transfer it's heat into
the water. The exhaust gas temperature in the flue of a conventional
heater can be so cool as to require a small electric blower to properly
exhaust the gas out the flue. This is an indication that most of the
combustion heat is being transfered into the water and not being
exhausted out the chimney.
In other words, perhaps 50% of the combustion heat of an on-demand
heater is actually being transfered to the incoming cold water and the
other 50% is being lost in the exhaust, while 80% of the combustion heat
is absorbed by the water in a conventional tank. The difference is that
an on-demand heater is on perhaps 30 to 90 minutes per day, while a
conventional tank might be on for 4 hours a day. But remember that when
a conventional tank is on, it's burners are using a much smaller amount
of gas compared to the on-demand heater.
5) the efficient use of an on-demand heater is challenged by short
hot-water usage events. In most houses, the hot water lines are
minimally insulated and thus the water in them quickly drops to room
temperature. Anyone turning on a hot-water tap in an upstairs bathroom
will notice it take 10 to 30 seconds to actually get hot water. It
doesn't matter what type of heater you have (assuming the heater is in
the basement). A short hot-water use event (say, washing your hands)
will end up dumping a lot of waste heat out the exhaust when an
on-demand heater is signalled to turn on and then soon after turned off
to heat the water for that short-use event.
6) because of the very high heating capability (BTU capacity) of
on-demand heaters, the extreme thermal cycling of their internal
components will age the unit much faster than a conventional water
heater, and they do or will require more maintainence and repair vs a
conventional water heater (they have control devices, electronics, etc,
that are not present in conventional heaters, and as we all know -
electronics and HVAC equipment really don't tend to co-exist very well
for the long term).
7) on-demand heaters have electrical or electronic controls that require
a source of AC current. Thus they will not function during a power
failure. Anyone living in a northern climate that is subject to
sporadic winter power failures will not appreciate the lack of hot water
during extended outages.
Conclusion:
No home owner that has a working conventional gas water heater will ever
live long enough to recoup the savings from replacing his existing
working heater with an on-demand unit - and it's not a given that there
will actually be any measureable savings in gas use.
What has been observed is that the behavior of occupants change in terms
of how they use hot water when a conventional heater is replaced with an
on-demand heater, and that change usually results in less hot water use
(shorter showers, changes in shower heads, installation of low-flush
toilets, etc, insulating hot-water supply lines inside the house) so
it's not always clear where the savings come from and why.
Replacing an old / leaking conventional water heater is very easy for
most novice home owners / handymen, and at a cost of only a few hundred
dollars, the cost/reward ratio is still heavily in favor of replacing a
old conventional water heater with a new conventional unit.
You will get more bang-for-the-buck by
1) putting an insulating blanket around your existing or new
conventional water heater
2) insulating as much of the hot water supply lines inside your house as
you can reach
3) use a low-flow shower head
On-demand water heaters are basically a crock of shit designed to give
plumbing and HVAC companies a very lucrative new revenue stream.
See also:
Edward Theodore Gein
>
> On-demand (tankless) water heaters are a crock.
>
> Facts:
[snip for brevity]
Good post, thanks.
WIWAL, in England, we had "on demand" gas water heaters above the
kitchen sinks; we called them Calor heaters, after the fashion of Brits
to name things after the most popular brand, or the famous person who
first used the thing.
These heaters were incredibly efficient, and reasonably dangerous,
because they delivered boiling water instantaneously. I've never seen
one in North America, but I reckon they exist somewhere.
The Brits also have eye-level grills on their stoves, so you don't have
to crouch down (or worse, get down on your hands and knees) to see
what's happening to your au gratin thingie.
The Brits are now selling appliances that actually come with a plug.
Mike
> Some Guy wrote:
>
>> Nobody wrote:
>>
>>>> Um, what gas water heaters have any sort of plastic exhaust
>>>> vent pipes?
>>>
>>> MOst energy efficient tankless water heaters.
>>
>> On-demand (tankless) water heaters are a crock.
>
>
> You asked what kind of water heater used plastic vents.
> I told you.
>
> I could care less if they are any good or not as that wasn't the point.
>
I have a new gas hot water tank, and it uses white ABS exhaust pipe that
exits the wall, not up the chimney.
Mike
Some Guy
> >>>> Um, what gas water heaters have any sort of plastic exhaust
> >>>> vent pipes?
> I have a new gas hot water tank, and it uses white ABS exhaust pipe
> that exits the wall, not up the chimney.
High efficiency (rated as more than 90% efficient) furnaces with
secondary heat exchangers are known as "condensing" furnaces because so
much heat can be extracted from the combustion exhaust that water
actually condenses out of it (and must be pumped out with a condensate
pump). The exhaust can therefore be blown out of the furnace through a
plastic pipe to the outside without needing to go through a metal flue
to the furnace.
I didn't think that there were any so-called high-efficiency water
heaters that operated along similar lines - where the exhaust was cool
enough to exit via a plastic pipe. The extra cost to build and service
a water heater like that (with associated electronic controls, sensors,
electronic ignitor, etc) will certainly never be recouped during the
lifetime of the unit (let alone the lifetime of the owner) as compared
to the up-front and operational costs of a conventional water heater.
tele...@yahoo.com
Some Guy
> A guy showed up at my door today wearing a card from "Ontario
> Heating." He told me he had to do a corrosion test on my hot
> water tank.
The media has been running stories about guys posing as HVAC technicians
trying to force their way into people's homes, under one pretense or
another. The exact reasons or the scam they are trying to pull is not
clear.
Sometimes they claim to be alarm system technicians.
Some theories are that whoever they are, their purpose is to case the
house, and possibly deactivate or disconnect the alarm system in
preparation for a future breakin.