Dear Colleagues,
Department of Life Sciences, Bangalore University, Bangalore, Karnataka, India in Collaboration with Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute, Bangalore is organizing the Fourth International Conference “Science and Scientist – 2016”: http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
This two day conference will organized during 26 and 27 August 2016 at Prof. K. V. Gowda Memorial Auditorium of Bangalore University.
Registration details
The registration details have been given at the conference webpage:
http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/2016/schedConf/registration
The last date for registration is June 24, 2016.
Accommodation
Accommodation will be arranged for all the registered delegates by the organizers.
Technical Paper Submission and Proceedings of Science and Scientist 2016
The organizers invite submission of articles within 5000 words and after a review process the author of selected articles will be intimated for presentation (for those international delegates who cannot come physically to the conference venue an online presentation facility is also arranged) in the conference. All accepted papers will be published in the proceedings of Science and Scientist – 2016. The last date for article submission is 2nd June, 2016.
Please submit your article online at the submissions link given in the conference webpage.
http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/2016/schedConf/cfp
Conference Themes
With the theme of ‘Frontiers in Life Sciences’ the major focus is on the question “Scientist can explain Science, but can Science explain the Scientist?”. The prevailing scientific concepts are the product of knowledge gained through research. Yet ‘Science’ cannot be explained in totality by the concepts we know. Thus it would be interesting note the inability of science to address its own foundations. The modern approach of life sciences which are based on genes and proteins take the aide of bioinformatics to account for extra genomic signaling and epigenetics (including the environment and the information domains related to the transient and dynamic states). The rise of systems biology signals the end of naïve reductionism. The biological phenomena are an activity of inseparable and restless wholistic unity and are not mere mechanical arrangements.
‘Life’ is an unique biological phenomena that encompass sentient activity which is not found in chemical arrangements outside life processes. With this perspective ‘The central dogma’ might prove to be incomplete to answer all the mysteries that surround life. The basic component of life ‘The cell’ is being increasingly recognized as a sentient entity. For example, Prof. James A. Shapiro mentions, “The cognitive, informatic view of how living cells operate and utilize their genomes is radically different from the genetic determinism perspective articulated most succinctly, in the last century, by Francis Crick’s famous “Central Dogma of Molecular Biology.”
The organisms possess elaborate sensory apparatus. They pick up signals about chemicals in the environment. For example they can track the nutrient availability, signals from other cells, and problems in the environment as well as the intracellular events that are going on inside the organisms. The cellular processes are whole cell activity. Without the well coordinated intelligent sensory concept the cell structure-function dynamic wholistic activity would be impossible.
With this being the core concept the conference has two main categories of themes:
(i) Scientific Critique of Life Science and (ii) Spiritual Biology.
The critique is not a critique from outside but it is a wholly internal critique from the progress of science itself. Frontier Biology recognizes that cells utilize a large variety of biomolecular processes and organizes them informatically to take appropriate decisions. In this way the cellular information is wholistic and possess a degree of self-determination. The atomistic viewpoint is no longer attractive and the recognition of systems biology means that scientists recognize that molecules do not act independently and groups of molecules work cooperatively and achieve the required functions. Random activity is no longer seen as the concept of biology and instead an automatic concept of biology is recognized.
The section of Spiritual Biology will probe into the question that why we lack any deeper understanding of these processes in terms of mechanistic concepts as well as delve into the more philosophical aspects of biological phenomena. This will cover the deeper concepts of Causality and will include the discussion on Aristotle’s “four aspects of causes”, Kant’s “internal teleology”, Hegel’s elaboration of “internal teleology” of Kant as well as circular causality of all life processes. For the Scientific Understanding of the concepts of Spiritual Biology, Vedantic tradition offers two empirically testable perfect axiomatic truths, viz., (i) Life comes from Life (biogenesis), and (ii) Matter comes from Life. Life comes from Life (biogenesis) is recognized by scientists like Louis Pasteur, Fransisco Redi and all biologists. The origin of life field in chemistry has not been able to demonstrate how first life can come from chemicals. From Vedantic perspective consciousness is a field of knowing activity. This field is more primitive than the material field. Thus this has major implications for biology and indicates a paradigm shift of revolutionary proportions. Moreover it has implications for our understanding of matter also.
From these understandings the conference tries to relate to the ‘LIFE’ in totality and the intelligence, sentient associate with it. The broad themes of Science and Scientist – 2016 are provided at the themes section of conference webpage:
http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/index/pages/view/ST
Suggestions and Advice
We will also be happy to receive your suggestions and advice so that the conference can be made a grand success for providing important directions towards the scientific understanding of consciousness and important biological concepts, which can lead us towards a viable alternative for development of a biological theory worthy of life.
Thanking you.
Dr. H.P.PUTTARAJU
University link : www.bangaloreuniversity.ac.in
Department link : http://bangaloreuniversity.ac.in/science/sericulture-life-science/
http://bangaloreuniversity.ac.in/biological-sciences/--
----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
----------------------------
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Dear Colleague with the right question.
What is life. I have found the best published answer is still Schrodinger's 1944 book by that title. The essence is Schrodinger said life is the property of a substance to exchange matter and energy with its surroundings and continue to exist beyond what we would normally assume for a similar inanimate structure. What makes this possible is what Schrodinger called "Negentropy" or von Bertalanffy called assimilation. These are true and remarkably insightful for the 1940-50's.
My work has led from Schrodinger to a more detailed and I hope precise answer. It will be published later this year if all goes well. What has been a challenge is to arrive at a theoretical description of the necessary and sufficient properties that can be observed to determine if object A on this planet or some other planet or moon is alive. The next criteria is it must be causal such that it can explain the transition from prebiotic to biotic and as Thomas Nagel said explain the evolution of "subjective human consciousness" and this is what I will claim.
You are correct that until this is settled competing hypotheses cannot be fully vetted.
I have two papers before the definition paper. One is on dissipative processes as information and the other is on the ontology of thermodynamic systems.
I hope this gives you a time frame for reviewing at least one fully developed definition of life.
Bill Altenburg
Smarts Hill Laboratories
Dear Bill,
“What is Life” is a very important question and the ‘Science and Scientist’ conference is also seems to aim at developing a scientific understanding of ‘Life’. In this e-group we are witnessing a healthy dialogue between the views of materialists and theologians. On the question of “What is Life” the following paper asks many questions and also highlights the importance of an unbiased dialogue between biologists and theologians http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588815/pdf/yjbm00009-0075.pdf
What Is Life? Prerequisites for a Definition
Douglas E. Dixa
Department of Biology, University of Biology, West Hartford, Connecticut
Abstract
Biologists view life as transient while theologians see it as eternal. An unbiased definition for life would respect both views until one or both were eliminated by evidence. This paper identifies pre-requisites for such a definition. First among these is that all assumptions be made explicit. Currently "life" is surrounded by implicit assumptions, e.g., that it is what organisms lose at death or that it is eternal, that its quality is inversely related to personal distress, that it originated some four billion years ago, and that animate matter can be distinguished from inanimate matter. None of these assumptions are supported by data. It is possible therefore that "life" is as meaningless as phlogiston. If life has meaning, i.e., if it is true, it must be as permanent as buoyancy, gravity, electricity, and the other truths of nature. Any definition for life that would permit such truth to be seen must be free of unwarranted assumptions. For the moment, at least, such a definition would need to be loosely structured and broadly focused. It would need to describe the long and convoluted process by which matter and energy form organisms which then evolve to form conscious organisms which then explore nature and eventually discover truth. Such a definition would include all the reactions and interactions of matter and energy and all the aspects of conscious discovery. It would suffer from superficiality, but, by being free from bias, provide a foundation for dialogue between biologists and theologians.
kind regards
Dasharath patel
Mo: +91 9979634434
This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com |
Sadhu I am grateful for the response
Schrodinger recognized that reproduction is an energy expensive process hence the living organism must be a store of energy and highly metabolic before it reproduces. That's why he coined the term "negentropy" because cells had to get and store energy before they could reproduce. The key is growth because the cell after it goes though mitosis is just a shell of its former self. It cannot reproduce until it grows to full size again. Further it will not reproduce unless it receives signals from outside that all the ingredients for growth are surrounding the cell.
In humans childbirth is the most energy intensive action by a body. Virus are non-metabolic and are I suspect left over from the formation of life like the background radiation is left over from the big bang. Viruses are at thermodynamic equilibrium with their surroundings hence they cannot interact with or cause their surroundings. What they do is fit molecules in cells to make new viruses. Life is metabolic, has stored free energy, is dissipative, does work, and is self- regulating and it does all these before it can reproduce. While I grew up on Gamow he did not know of non-equilibrium thermodynamics nor did I. But Huxley, GG Simpson, Gamow and all the researchers at the time were fascinated by the role of genes. While the role of metabolism was just sort of there. Now we see its vital. Growth comes before reproduction other wise you don't need and cant support reproduction.
Bill Altenburg
Smarts Hill Laboratories
It applies to everything. Science is based on ontological assumptions. So elementary but scientists don’t believe so, they take everything as given and many claim no ontology. Science curricula do not include philosophical background or history of science. I know, I am an educator for four decades.
In the “Conscious Universe” we developed extensively the hidden metaphysics of human though systems.
No, Dashrath bhai! I do not want nor can i want any one to acceptevolution as the basis for emergence of life and consciousness.
--
----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
----------------------------
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Bhakti Niskama Shanta, Ph.D. Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute | |
+91-(9748906907) | |
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On Wed, 2 Mar, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Alessio Marcozzi<alessio....@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Alessio Marcozzi,
It has been highlighted in this e-group several times that there is no empirical method to know the history. Many times it is being said that there is no scientific method to know our date of birth or our father if no one gives us any direction or hints. I agree to this and I hope you must also agree with the same, if you are humble enough to embrace the humility. If someone disagrees with this human limitation then please explain me a method by which we can know the history.
Many scientists do not feel shame to claim that dull (senseless objects) chemicals and forces did the miracle to produce Sun, Moon, Bacteria, Human, etc and they want to be critical to those who have faith on God. If God is the first life as the proponents of Vedanta philosophy claim (because life and matter are coming from life so there is first life which is called God in religion) then it is only from God we can know the History and truth as He wishes to reveal to the individuals. There is no other way. We may make a show of great arrogance that we are big scientists and we can unearth the truth but that arrogance cannot lead us to know the origins. We have to be humble and that is what the studies in origin of life and universe are leading to.
Dear Alessio,
Matter is dull and cannot do anything by itself. A collection of bricks and cement cannot produce a building. A collection of atoms and molecules cannot produce the orderly universe that we witness. Life is needed to produce the extraordinary order that we see in universe. See the order in the blade of grass. Can chemicals without the help of living agency produce that?
You can claim that you are close to achieve the production of life from matter. But that is what we all are hearing for last 100 years and more. We will do it in future. That is why I have told that those who claim such things again and again in journals and science books to get some research funds all of them should feel at least some shame. As the Vedanata philosophers challenged in this group many times and I also ask you the same – please show us how you can produce a blade of grass from chemicals.
If you feel grass is too complex then even produce a bacterium by adding DNA, RNA, Protein, Enzymes, etc. First produce this and then say that 'here life comes from matter'. Without doing that do not fool people that in future you will do this and that. Anyone will say in 'future'. 'Future' is an excuse and cannot be taken as evidence. Such practice is an attempt to only devalue the true science.
The message from Conference Chair is most suitable in this regard: http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Science is the product of rational activity of Scientists. It is the peculiar perversion of modern materialistic science to think they can invert this natural sequence. Scientist is able to explain Science, but Is Science Able to Explain the Scientist?
--
You both want people to accept that life and consciousness evolved from nonliving or that which is not conscious. But what is the basis for this suggestion? Just faith! Where is the evidence for life or consciousness appearing from something that is nonliving or not conscious? Vedantic scholars have the evidence for the claim that life appears from life or consciousness appears from consciousness. That is the reason they do not accept the opposite – life appearing from nonliving or matter which is not conscious. Life is not a mere physical entity and that is why we cannot copy the nature of one person and load it in another. But it can be done in a computer where we can copy the sw and load it in another. As one of the theme of ‘Science and Scientist 2016’ explains ‘Difference Between Organism and Machine’ http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Glad to meet you all.
I agree with Prof. Kauffman. My question to Prof. Chopra is:
Why in formless consciousness do such specific appearances occur? How come that specific symmetry breaking?
Thanks for your talks at Tucson last week.
All the best.
Javier
Deepak,
Your analysis is beautiful, but deeply flawed, and if accepted, will eventually slow human progress to the next level, possibly even dangerously side-track it.
Yes, from a neuroscientific/biologic point-of-view, your points 1 – 5 are easy to accept. We only have direct access to experiencing.
However, point 6 is dangerous speculation. It almost certainly is derived from intuition or “direct experience”, neither of which has been historically useful in ascertaining aspects of the behavior of “reality.”
AND, point 8 is highly unlikely, and ultimately, although counter-intuitively, also a dangerous view. Human love, or any love, is a complex phenomenon more easily explained as arising in neural activity, supported by a neural network evolved by enhancing the fitness of the gene’s that generate the network. A human may experience deep love when one opens to “it all” correctly, but this is very weak evidence that the essence of “it all” is love.
The reasons points 6 and 8 are very dangerous are that if (a) reality is an entity operating on its own principles, devoid of concern for human well-being, and if (b) love must be created by humans (for humans, and for other parts of reality), then we must not have faith that at “the bottom of it all” is love and consciousness. Far more likely, at the bottom of it all is dark, empty, uncompassionate space, time, and energy.
HUMANS HAVE TO STEP UP AND BE THE SOURCE OF LOVE AND COMPASSION. These are our invention. They are our responsibility. They must be created by us, if they are to be created at all. THEY ARE NOT constituent, direct parts of nature, and assuming they are leads to an ultimate “Accepting Complacency” that can allow for havoc and even ultimately, for the kind of fanaticism that justifies anything.
Ken Marton,
Caltech Ph.D., 1980, Neuroscience
Deepak in Vedanta we know that individual souls have sat (existence), chit (consciousness) and ananda (joy) which they derive from Supreme Absolute. This is discussed in the paper Life and consciousness - Vedantic view
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
You want to eliminate sat and ananda, and want to only emphasize consciousness. But why? We have to consider the complete being.
For consciousness to exist there should be something existing of which a being is conscious off. To be aware there should be something existing that a being is aware off.
Apart from existence and consciousness, soul also has a quality to derive happiness or joy.
You have not answered my question about how one can develop love with something that is formless.
Formless assumes form and subject/object split to experience love --cosmic censorship and veiled non locality--Maya
Love as ultimate truth is unity consciousness beyond subject/object split
It does not matter what Vedanta says -although I feel it is truth
Ultimately you must trust your own intuition and insight through experience
Deepak in discussions I never seen you presenting any convincing arguments. What all you have to offer is a few quotes. You have to explain people what is your philosophy. The questions asked in my last reply are very important and you should meditate on those because you will face them again and again when you try to present your inconsistent arguments.
🙏🏾
On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Kafatos, Menas<kaf...@chapman.edu> wrote:
Deepak never said that. When he uses the word Consciousness it is in the sense of Brahman or ParamaShiva of the Shaivites. Supreme Reality. Another term would be Fundamental Awareness. Of course we accept Sat-Cit-Ananda.
The English language has one word for Consciousness or just a couple. Sanskrit many more. That is part of the problem with using the word consciousness.
So the term consciousness is many times confusing as it implies an object. But pure Brahman is beyond objects and the subject-object split.
Your last question is strange. Everything in the end (and in the beginning and in the middle) is nothing but love. As Vedantist, one loves Brahman and gets to the formless through love of the forms. This is true Ananda. All the great teachers followed jnana yoga but also bahkti yoga. It is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita.
Brahman is formless, the ground of all existence.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2016, at 12:33 AM, Bharath Ch <rad...@gmail.com<mailto:rad...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Deepak in Vedanta we know that individual souls have sat (existence), chit (consciousness) and ananda (joy) which they derive from Supreme Absolute. This is discussed in the paper Life and consciousness - Vedantic view
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
You want to eliminate sat and ananda, and want to only emphasize consciousness. But why? We have to consider the complete being.
For consciousness to exist there should be something existing of which a being is conscious off. To be aware there should be something existing that a being is aware off.
Apart from existence and consciousness, soul also has a quality to derive happiness or joy.
You have not answered my question about how one can develop love with something that is formless.
On 03-May-2016 9:03 am, "Deepak Chopra" <nonlo...@chopra.com<mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com>> wrote:
Consciousness is formless
It can't be seen or measured but makes experience possible
See if this helps
https://www.facebook.com/DeepakChopra/videos/10153610708910665/
Deepak Chopra
2013 Costa Del Mar Road
Carlsbad, CA 92009
[cid:]
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing<http://www.amazon.com/Super-Genes-Astonishing-Optimum-Well-Being/dp/0804140138/deepakchcom07-20>
On May 2, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Bharath Ch <rad...@gmail.com<mailto:rad...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Deepak you have told to be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both awakening and freedom. Why do you think that formless being is the ground? How can be a being is formless?
How one can be in love with formless?
On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com<mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com>> wrote:
How we create the universe
1 All we have access to is experience and the knowing of experience .
2 We cannot know or experience anything without awareness
2 Experience includes
Feeling
Thinking
Sensing
Perceiving
Knowing
Imagining
Intuiting
3 Experience occurs in awareness is known in awareness and made out of awareness . Awareness is the creator and recipient of experience
4 Humans created language to label experiences and objectified them thus creating the concepts of mind body universe.
5 Mind Body Space Time Particles Forces and Fields are names for shapes forms and activities that formless awareness assumes .
6 The only true identity/ reality is formless being that assumes the experience of all form and phenomenon .
7 To be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both awakening and freedom
8 It is also pure love
Deepak Chopra
2013 Costa Del Mar Road
Carlsbad, CA 92009
[cid:]
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing<http://www.amazon.com/Super-Genes-Astonishing-Optimum-Well-Being/dp/0804140138/deepakchcom07-20>
From: purus...@hotmail.com<mailto:purus...@hotmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
From: purusottama dasa<mailto:purus...@hotmail.com>
Sent: 04/03/2016 11:13
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"
Dear Alessio,
Maybe we should first read and study the Vedanta, which are very compatible with science if we are willing though, to rid ourselves from the very simple and childish concepts we are displaying about God.
Then more people in this group will take us more serious!
For various reasons scientist are unwilling to take the effort to do do.
George Wald, among many others, did take that couragious and honest decision.
All the best
Peter Scherrenburg
Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Oorspronkelijk bericht --------
Van: Alessio Marcozzi <alessio....@gmail.com<mailto:alessio....@gmail.com>>
Datum:03-03-2016 19:55 (GMT+01:00)
Cc:
Onderwerp: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"
I suggest everyone to listen to this talk and write some comment about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHKwIYsPXLg
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Dasharath patel <dasharat...@gmail.com<mailto:dasharat...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Alessio Marcozzi,
It has been highlighted in this e-group several times that there is no empirical method to know the history. Many times it is being said that there is no scientific method to know our date of birth or our father if no one gives us any direction or hints. I agree to this and I hope you must also agree with the same, if you are humble enough to embrace the humility. If someone disagrees with this human limitation then please explain me a method by which we can know the history.
Many scientists do not feel shame to claim that dull (senseless objects) chemicals and forces did the miracle to produce Sun, Moon, Bacteria, Human, etc and they want to be critical to those who have faith on God. If God is the first life as the proponents of Vedanta philosophy claim (because life and matter are coming from life so there is first life which is called God in religion) then it is only from God we can know the History and truth as He wishes to reveal to the individuals. There is no other way. We may make a show of great arrogance that we are big scientists and we can unearth the truth but that arrogance cannot lead us to know the origins. We have to be humble and that is what the studies in origin of life and universe are leading to.
On 03-Mar-2016 6:22 PM, "Alessio Marcozzi" <alessio....@gmail.com<mailto:alessio....@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear all,
I am sorry if my words sounded harsher than what I have meant them to be.
I agree with you Eric on the fact that this forum can be an excellent place to move the conversation forward.
About the 'God did it" simplification, you are right, it is a simplification.
About gravity, we are getting there!
Last year the Higgs boson was discovered, and just a few weeks ago gravitational waves coming from an unimaginable distance were measured for the first time. So, we really are getting there!
My point is, that the lack of a proper answer based on physical evidence should not be automatically accepted as a manifestation of the "metaphysic" realm.
As far the history of human-kind can tell, we have a natural tendency for making hard-to-answer questions, and the same natural tendency of coming up with very diverse answers. However, over time, we can clearly see (at least I see it) that a primordial metaphysical explanation will be substituted with a physical one. This is a hard and very painful process! I get that. It's unbelievably hard to track down all the motion of the planets, integrate their trajectory over time and come up with a decent model that can explain what we see and why it is like that (also here a simplification!).
It is obviously much more easy to say that "God did it" (again sorry for the simplification but try to bear with me).
It is more appealing also, it makes our mind free from doubts, it makes everything easy to explain (the concept of God is easily understood by a kid while the general theory of relativity it's a bit more harsh to digest), it even creates a possibility for eternal life or immortal soul so that our fear are sedated. It's a powerful and charming way to approach things.
But I feel it incomplete. It does not give any concrete explanation, it shifts the problem to 'God', it basically says something like "you are just human, you cannot know, don't bother, God knows it, you can admire him for this and that's it" (simplification again!)
Lastly, what I really felt troublesome over the year, is that different religions and philosophies give different answers or they depict very different scenarios about "God", "the beginning of things", "life", "consciousness", "the soul","the afterlife" etc. Moreover, they are very very conservative about that even though much of these -let's call it views- are geographically and culturally distinct (a strong indication of being human-made rather than god-made).
Any comment on that would be highly appreciated! How do you discriminate among different metaphysical interpretations?
In science if you have a different theory you test them and then you tend to accept the one that fits better with the measurements, for example.
So the point now is, "Is consciousness a complex thing that we may fail to describe as only physical phenomena yet, but it could very well be that in few decades we solve it as we solved the motion of the planets or is it intrinsically metaphysics? And if the latter, why so? What argument can you offer me to justify this vision?" But please, do not use as arguments the fact that someone else said that, that it is written in some ancient book or such.
Respectfully,
Alessio
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:07 AM, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
Dear Alex,
Yes and we may actually be devolving in that sense, haha. In a similar way if a human being doesn't search out the answers to where he comes from, where the universe comes from and why he exists then he could be said to devolving also. But judging from some of the statements I've been reading from the distinguished scientists, physicists and philosophers on this forum it seems that progress is being made, things are moving forwards. And when someone makes a statement like Alessio's regarding viewing simplified views that "God did it" as being based on ignorance, well that could be true of course as it is impossible to tell from a man's word alone just exactly how much understanding the man has behind the statement, whether he has in depth knowledge of God or not. Of course the subject of God or religion has been somewhat a taboo subject for scientifically minded persons in the recent past. But nowadays with the greater understanding that certain phenomena even so common as gravity defy scientific explanation, as well as the orbits/paths of certain phenomena in space, origins of consciousness etc, these escape our easy explanation, and so how can we definitively state that God doesn't exist? We can't even explain gravity definitively what to speak of God, so at least we admit that we don't know for now, and we continue our searching for answers, I think this forum is actually a good place for that.
Regards, Eric Reyes
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>
You both want people to accept that life and consciousness evolved from nonliving or that which is not conscious. But what is the basis for this suggestion? Just faith! Where is the evidence for life or consciousness appearing from something that is nonliving or not conscious? Vedantic scholars have the evidence for the claim that life appears from life or consciousness appears from consciousness. That is the reason they do not accept the opposite – life appearing from nonliving or matter which is not conscious. Life is not a mere physical entity and that is why we cannot copy the nature of one person and load it in another. But it can be done in a computer where we can copy the sw and load it in another. As one of the theme of ‘Science and Scientist 2016’ explains ‘Difference Between Organism and Machine’ http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.<http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/index/pages/view/DBOM>
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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Stuart Kaufman is correct to emphasize the great duration of geologic time and the accompanying history of life. But we must also keep in mind that we see only a limited part of the whole. There exists a complex and critical backstory that transcends all of our naturalistic notions (but is necessarily concordant with them). This backstory involves the creation of consciousness(es), one or more falls from grace, and slippage (or outright transgression) between ordinarily separate states of being. Forging ahead, we will be required to maintain distinction between created, willed consciousness and uncreated consciousness.
May the Fourth be with you,
Mark
Stuart I thought I answered in a previous communicationIf the perceptual world is a representation of a process in consciousness then biological organisms including the human body brain and genes have no privileged statusWe are all species of consciousness like branches of a tree . The evolution of species is the evolution of species of consciousness. Consciousness is not personal. Your own body mind is an experience in that non local awareness . It also happens to be your ground state .No we should not give up found science just realize that science itself is an activity of consciousnessScience supports thisI'm inviting Don Hoffman commentHe uses evolutionary theory to explain these points perhaps a little differentlyBest
Dear Stuart
Nice to meet yo0u in Tucson. Do you not agree that every cosmogony needs to describe a process for the emergence of form through development processes one way or the other. The form can only have existed as potential and then emerged with the development of the Cosmos.
Best
Søren
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On May 5, 2016, at 4:01 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
Stuart I thought I answered in a previous communicationIf the perceptual world is a representation of a process in consciousness then biological organisms including the human body brain and genes have no privileged statusWe are all species of consciousness like branches of a tree . The evolution of species is the evolution of species of consciousness. Consciousness is not personal. Your own body mind is an experience in that non local awareness . It also happens to be your ground state .No we should not give up found science just realize that science itself is an activity of consciousnessScience supports thisI'm inviting Don Hoffman commentHe uses evolutionary theory to explain these points perhaps a little differentlyBest
You both want people to accept that life and consciousness evolved from nonliving or that which is not conscious. But what is the basis for this suggestion? Just faith! Where is the evidence for life or consciousness appearing from something that is nonliving or not conscious? Vedantic scholars have the evidence for the claim that life appears from life or consciousness appears from consciousness. That is the reason they do not accept the opposite – life appearing from nonliving or matter which is not conscious. Life is not a mere physical entity and that is why we cannot copy the nature of one person and load it in another. But it can be done in a computer where we can copy the sw and load it in another. As one of the theme of ‘Science and Scientist 2016’ explains ‘Difference Between Organism and Machine’ http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/index/pages/view/DBOM
[The entire original message is not included.]
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----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
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Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org/
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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On May 5, 2016, at 6:18 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
Evolutionary time is a blink in the eye of cosmic consciousness
Deepak Chopra
Stuart Kaufman is correct to emphasize the great duration of geologic time and the accompanying history of life. But we must also keep in mind that we see only a limited part of the whole. There exists a complex and critical backstory that transcends all of our naturalistic notions (but is necessarily concordant with them). This backstory involves the creation of consciousness(es), one or more falls from grace, and slippage (or outright transgression) between ordinarily separate states of being. Forging ahead, we will be required to maintain distinction between created, willed consciousness and uncreated consciousness.
May the Fourth be with you,
Mark
On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Stuart Kauffman <stuka...@gmail.com> wrote:
Deepak I have now asked you in private once and publicly 3 times: How do you account for the vast, diverse, and non-random fossil record falling into the higher taxa up to phyla and kingdoms with millions of species, 98% of which are now extinct creating those fossils? Do you avoid this question because you have no answer when evolutionary biology and the well estimated age of the earth of 5 billion years, and origin of life either on earth or arriving on earth some 3.5 billion years ago. This requires a classical “enough” world, not to be had though consciousness alone. Whence the reality that allows the embodied formation of organisms and their evolution to create that fossil record over 3.7 billion years, a record in the rocks, themselves dated by geology, including sedementation, radioactive dating. Should we give up all that coherent science? If not, please answer me. I truly want to know what you think. If you have no answers, then your views may have much merit, but cannot be all we need. Respectfully, Stuart Kauffman
On May 4, 2016, at 4:40 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
Thank you Alex . You are correct . Knowledge perception cognition and reality are different in different states of consciousness - Turiya Tuitiyatata Bhagvad Chetna and Brahmi Chetna all create their own realities . Enough said .
I believe so too and it is pretty close to Peirce’s view of Firstness as the unmanifest source of forms and qualia = types emerging as concrete signs = tokens. Signification is the exchange of forms. I pretty much see “particles” in quantum physics the same way: as tokens of unmanifest general forms.
Best
Søren
Bhakti Niskama Shanta, Ph.D. Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute | |
+91-(9748906907) | |
#8, Gopalakrishnan Mansion, Konappana Agrahara, Electronic City, Bangalore, Karnataka, India | |
On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Kafatos, Menas<kaf...@chapman.edu> wrote:
Deepak never said that. When he uses the word Consciousness it is in the sense of Brahman or ParamaShiva of the Shaivites. Supreme Reality. Another term would be Fundamental Awareness. Of course we accept Sat-Cit-Ananda.
The English language has one word for Consciousness or just a couple. Sanskrit many more. That is part of the problem with using the word consciousness.
So the term consciousness is many times confusing as it implies an object. But pure Brahman is beyond objects and the subject-object split.
Your last question is strange. Everything in the end (and in the beginning and in the middle) is nothing but love. As Vedantist, one loves Brahman and gets to the formless through love of the forms. This is true Ananda. All the great teachers followed jnana yoga but also bahkti yoga. It is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita.
Brahman is formless, the ground of all existence.
Sent from my iPhone
From: purusottama dasa<mailto:purusotdasa@hotmail.com>
Sent: 04/03/2016 11:13
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"
Dear Alessio,
Maybe we should first read and study the Vedanta, which are very compatible with science if we are willing though, to rid ourselves from the very simple and childish concepts we are displaying about God.
Then more people in this group will take us more serious!
For various reasons scientist are unwilling to take the effort to do do.
George Wald, among many others, did take that couragious and honest decision.
All the best
Peter Scherrenburg
Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Oorspronkelijk bericht --------
Van: Alessio Marcozzi <alessio....@gmail.com<mailto:alessio.marcozzi@gmail.com>>
Datum:03-03-2016 19:55 (GMT+01:00)
Cc:
Onderwerp: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"
I suggest everyone to listen to this talk and write some comment about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHKwIYsPXLg
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Dasharath patel <dasharat...@gmail.com<mailto:dasharath.b.patel@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Alessio Marcozzi,
It has been highlighted in this e-group several times that there is no empirical method to know the history. Many times it is being said that there is no scientific method to know our date of birth or our father if no one gives us any direction or hints. I agree to this and I hope you must also agree with the same, if you are humble enough to embrace the humility. If someone disagrees with this human limitation then please explain me a method by which we can know the history.
Many scientists do not feel shame to claim that dull (senseless objects) chemicals and forces did the miracle to produce Sun, Moon, Bacteria, Human, etc and they want to be critical to those who have faith on God. If God is the first life as the proponents of Vedanta philosophy claim (because life and matter are coming from life so there is first life which is called God in religion) then it is only from God we can know the History and truth as He wishes to reveal to the individuals. There is no other way. We may make a show of great arrogance that we are big scientists and we can unearth the truth but that arrogance cannot lead us to know the origins. We have to be humble and that is what the studies in origin of life and universe are leading to.
On 2 March 2016 at 17:01, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dear Alessio
You admit that we don't know what was before the Big Bang, but then use the example that 1000 years ago we didn't know where the sun and moon came from, but that now we do know? Logically that doesn't make much sense because of course we are assuming that the Big Bang preceded the sun and moon's existence right? It's a little like someone who has no knowledge at all of how produce grows in the fields of a farm, but explains to people that we now know where zucchini squash come from, that the grocery store is the origin of zucchini squash, something like that. Unless you understand how the squash plants grow in the fields you don't really understand where the zucchini come from. Same for the universe, if one doesn't know the origin of matter itself, how can one truly know the origin of the sun and moon and planets?
Regards, Eric Reyes
________________________________
From: Alessio Marcozzi <alessio....@gmail.com>
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----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
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Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 6:21 AM, 'Murty Hari' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.<Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
[The entire original message is not included.]
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----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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It is a very crude understanding for now but maybe it may explain something..
On May 6, 2016, at 8:05 AM, BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com> wrote:Bernardo and All,There was no question explicitly stated, therefore I am not going to argue that I am not begging the question.I will reply to each of your paragraphs:B - "Experience without consciousness"? This seems very peculiar. I guess what you mean is "unconscious neural activity," which is fine but assumes physicalism.A - No, my argument was based on existential phenomenology (Husserl´s criticism of Descartes, Merleau-Ponty´s "pre-reflexive" experience). It can also be based on current approaches of embodied embedded cognition. We interact with the world with our bodies before becoming conscious of it. The living body (the flesh) is not a purely physical system, but a physical system with mental activity (it is objective and subjective at the same time - as in Ram's Dual-Aspect Monism). Greg Nixon has a paper on unconscious experiences that I quoted in my writings: Nixon,G. (2010) From panexperientialism to individual self consciousness: The continuum of experience. Journal of Consciousness Exploration & Research. 1(3): 216-233.B - Now, physicalism is the very point in contention, so you can't simply assume it in the process of arguing for it.A - I am not assuming physicalismB - The claim that experience arises from an "interaction between an agent and the world" is even more glaringly question-begging, since you are assuming that existence of a world outside experience, which, again, is the point in contention.A - I am not assuming a world outside experience, I am assuming a world *outside consciousness* and have many arguments to support this claim. For the moment, I just reinforced Dr. Kauffmann´s argument about fossils. It should be sufficient to show that Dr. Chopra´s view is flawed.B - Perceptions, just like thoughts and emotions, are experiences. What many here are arguing is precisely that perceptions are not generated by something outside consciousness, although they obviously entail something outside our personal consciousness (i.e. something outside the dissociated alters of universal consciousness that correspond to us as individual human beings). To argue against this view you can't simply assume the contrary view!A - No, the discussion is not about perceptions being generated by something outside consciousness. The discussion is about human experience being inside consciousness or in the world. Dr. Chopra explicitly claims that experience is IN consciousness. I claim that it is an interactive process between an agent and the world, and that consciousness comes later, in evolutionary and ontogenetic scales. I am not arguing for an empiricist (Lockean, Humean) view of perception, therefore your arguments against it do not reach me.B - Neuroscience can only study consciousness through the experiences people report. However, to report an experience a person has not only to have the experience, but also to be aware of having the experience. After all, people cannot report what they experience without knowing that they experience it. Consequently, neuroscience inherently limits consciousness to what is, in fact, just a particular configuration of consciousness; namely self-reflective awareness.A - What you say is true only for some branches of cognitive neuroscience that inherited the Cartesian view of consciousness. There are other branches, as affective neuroscience, that relates being conscious with feeling. Feels can be non-reportable (we do not have words for many of them), but they are felt without being reported. Do you have an argument against this commonsensical evidence? Do you need to report the taste of wine in order to feel it? Do you have words to distinguish every nuance of the tastes?B - What you might call "unconscious neural processes" are, in my view, just non-self-reflective experiences fully in consciousness. Yet, nobody will report on them, for the reasons discussed above. So we end up thinking that there is something "unconscious."A - No, unconscious experiences are not restricted to these neural processes. For instance, since I woke up and wore my shoes I have had an unconscioius experience of interacting with the shoes, but was not conscious of it until I put it in my focus of attention (in phenomenological terminology, it was pre-reflexive until the moment I chose to make it a "theme"). The same applies, in evolutionary scale, to the fossils. Now we are conscious about them, but the data (geological age of the rocks, etc.) about them indicates to our consciousness that they were there when there was no human-like consciousness at all. Therefore, it is our consciousness itself that discovers that there are unconscious processes the have occurred independently of a human-like consciousness. Conscious processes are rarely locked in consciousness; the Cartesian case is the exception, not the rule, as Edmund Husserl convincingly argued.Regards,Alfredo