The False Elephant and the False Ego
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Dr. Bhakti Niskama Shanta
Dec 16, 2016, 1:19:58 PM12/16/16
to Online Sadhu Sanga
The False Elephant and the False Ego
by
Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.
(Serving Director, Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture and Science)
This post originally published at: https://www.facebook.com/bviscs/photos/a.283565131663203.77513.278907435462306/1399432143409824/?type=3&theater
When we look at the world through a microscope we see only cells and their internal moieties - we never see people, clouds, trees or elephants. Even the macromolecular vision of such separated entities does not show us the purpose or whole of that-for-which-each-exists. Such is the nature of the analytic thinking of finite cognition that we call modern science.
The blind men who could only feel the different limbs of an elephant they were blind to (ignorant of) concluded the legs were tree stumps, the side was a wall, the tusks were spears, the trunk a serpent, the ears a fan, and the tail a rope. Not knowing the unity of the whole they could not know the relation of each part to it. Without that knowledge they could not have a proper understanding of the parts in isolation from the whole. Even simple understanding of the function of each part in isolation could not reveal the relation of the functions to each other what to speak of their relation to the unity of the whole of which they had no clue.
Aristotle said there are four factors that had to be comprehended in explaining things: material, efficient, formal, and final (end or purpose). These four represent what a thing is made of (material), what modifies it (efficient), what plan/design guides its progressive modification (formal), the goal - what end the plan of action or modification aims for in order to cease when it is in conformity with the finished product (final end or purpose).
In reality it is the final end that determines and guides all the other factors. When the unity of the whole is sentient or self-conscious even a systems approach will not be sufficient to explain its existence. Systems are not self-conscious.
Without knowing the purpose for an individual's own self-conscious existence one has only a false conception of self, or false ego. One's true identity is established only when it is comprehended in relation to a proper concept of the Complete Whole as the all accommodating, all pervading, all unifying/attracting self conscious, self-knowing Absolute Truth Who is known by many Names.
The blind men who could only feel the different limbs of an elephant they were blind to (ignorant of) concluded the legs were tree stumps, the side was a wall, the tusks were spears, the trunk a serpent, the ears a fan, and the tail a rope. Not knowing the unity of the whole they could not know the relation of each part to it. Without that knowledge they could not have a proper understanding of the parts in isolation from the whole. Even simple understanding of the function of each part in isolation could not reveal the relation of the functions to each other what to speak of their relation to the unity of the whole of which they had no clue.
Aristotle said there are four factors that had to be comprehended in explaining things: material, efficient, formal, and final (end or purpose). These four represent what a thing is made of (material), what modifies it (efficient), what plan/design guides its progressive modification (formal), the goal - what end the plan of action or modification aims for in order to cease when it is in conformity with the finished product (final end or purpose).
In reality it is the final end that determines and guides all the other factors. When the unity of the whole is sentient or self-conscious even a systems approach will not be sufficient to explain its existence. Systems are not self-conscious.
Without knowing the purpose for an individual's own self-conscious existence one has only a false conception of self, or false ego. One's true identity is established only when it is comprehended in relation to a proper concept of the Complete Whole as the all accommodating, all pervading, all unifying/attracting self conscious, self-knowing Absolute Truth Who is known by many Names.
BMP
Dec 23, 2016, 6:57:28 AM12/23/16
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Text Without Context is a Pretext of knowledge.
One of the greatest limitations of scientific
thinking is the inability of scientists to
understand the fallacy of context-free analysis.
Christmas commemorates the incarnation of the
Son of God. Taken out of context it becomes an
orgy of consumer frenzy. Holy Days become Holidays.
Sincere Wishes for a Blessed Christmas
Bhakti Madhava Puri
To: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 1:10 PM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Dec 26, 2016, 9:10:38 PM12/26/16
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Celebration of most of the festivals of all the religions, be it Hinduism or Islama or Sikhsism, Deepawal, Dussehra, Eid, GuruPurab have become orgy of consumer frenzy without any context. Christmas being no exception.
Vinod Sehgal
On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 1:28 PM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Text Without Context is a Pretext of knowledge.One of the greatest limitations of scientificthinking is the inability of scientists tounderstand the fallacy of context-free analysis.Christmas commemorates the incarnation of theSon of God. Taken out of context it becomes anorgy of consumer frenzy. Holy Days become Holidays.Sincere Wishes for a Blessed ChristmasBhakti Madhava Puri
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 1:10 PM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
The False Elephant and the False EgobySripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.(Serving Director, Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture and Science)This post originally published at: https://www.facebook.com/bviscs/photos/a.283565131663203.77513.278907435462306/1399432143409824/?type=3&theaterWhen we look at the world through a microscope we see only cells and their internal moieties - we never see people, clouds, trees or elephants. Even the macromolecular vision of such separated entities does not show us the purpose or whole of that-for-which-each-exists. Such is the nature of the analytic thinking of finite cognition that we call modern science.
The blind men who could only feel the different limbs of an elephant they were blind to (ignorant of) concluded the legs were tree stumps, the side was a wall, the tusks were spears, the trunk a serpent, the ears a fan, and the tail a rope. Not knowing the unity of the whole they could not know the relation of each part to it. Without that knowledge they could not have a proper understanding of the parts in isolation from the whole. Even simple understanding of the function of each part in isolation could not reveal the relation of the functions to each other what to speak of their relation to the unity of the whole of which they had no clue.
Aristotle said there are four factors that had to be comprehended in explaining things: material, efficient, formal, and final (end or purpose). These four represent what a thing is made of (material), what modifies it (efficient), what plan/design guides its progressive modification (formal), the goal - what end the plan of action or modification aims for in order to cease when it is in conformity with the finished product (final end or purpose).
In reality it is the final end that determines and guides all the other factors. When the unity of the whole is sentient or self-conscious even a systems approach will not be sufficient to explain its existence. Systems are not self-conscious.
Without knowing the purpose for an individual's own self-conscious existence one has only a false conception of self, or false ego. One's true identity is established only when it is comprehended in relation to a proper concept of the Complete Whole as the all accommodating, all pervading, all unifying/attracting self conscious, self-knowing Absolute Truth Who is known by many Names.
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
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BMP
Dec 26, 2016, 9:45:22 PM12/26/16
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Respected Vinod, my point was that this analytic (reductionist) mentality is being cultivated and validated by what is currently accepted as scientific thinking. This is an epistemological and ontological problem that needs to be addressed by scientists and educators in all fields as its widespread effects are shaping the personal, social, economic, and theological attitudes and conceptions of modern civilization.
There are two problems. First, making scientists who are blind to this problem aware that there is such a problem. Second, understanding how to correct it.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
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Deepak Chopra
Dec 28, 2016, 9:00:27 AM12/28/16
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For anyone interested
Happy holidays
http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php
From: 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 9:43:07 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 9:43:07 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
BMP
Dec 30, 2016, 4:51:25 PM12/30/16
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Reality Has Its Own Purpose In and
For Itself
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
December 30, 2016
In a recent article by Deepak Chopra, MD, “Can We Evolve Beyond Evolution?
We Have To” [1] it was mentioned that
“-- The reality we accept is a human construct.”
“-- We should see ourselves as conscious creators who imbue reality with
our own purposes.”
While many people think this way there are also those who believe reality
is fixed in stone beyond whatever they may think of it. To some extent both are
right. We do have the freedom to interpret what we experience, and mind does
play a role in determining what the senses observe. At the same time reality
doesn’t just disappear when we do not perceive it. Our house is still there
when we go to work for several hours.
For instance, it could burn down when we are not there. So it is not all
a human construct, and as for purposes they also are not solely created by us.
A more satisfactory conception would be one that includes and harmonizes
both the idealism of a mind or consciousness based creation of reality, and the
realism of the inherent purposefulness of an already existing reality of which
we are part and parcel.
The reality people experience is a human construct
insofar as it is limited to sensuous perception of the phenomenal world of
appearance, as well as the circumscribed judgments of finite understanding.
However, this does not reach to the noumenal Reality in and for itself beyond
or behind its apparent or phenomenal surface. In India the mayavad philosophy of Brahman
Satyam, Jagat Mithyä claims that Reality is purely a product of human
misconception and only Brahman as
mere impersonal consciousness (an oxymoron since consciousness is the essence
of personality) is the absolute reality or truth. This philosophy, also called kevaladvaita, however, does not provide an
alternative to material reductionism but merely an alternative reductionism. Instead
of reducing everything to matter it proposes to reduce everything to impersonal
consciousness. In fact, what is needed is an alternative way of thinking that
is not based solely on the judgments of a finite ego that is found, for
instance, in the abstract thinking of Kantian philosophy in the West as well as
in the kevaladvaita interpretations
of Shankaracharya in the East.
To continue reading the entire article
Good wishes for a peaceful and harmonious New Year of selfless service,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Please visit us on Facebook
From: Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 7:24 AM
VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Jan 3, 2017, 7:14:35 AM1/3/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Respected Bhakti Madhava Puriji Maharaj,
Pranama,
Therefore, any house of whatever shape, color, size it may be is nothing but an aggregation of electrons and quarks as manifesting from one common element. But our senses do not perceive the reality of the common element. It is due to our mental perceptual capability ( or one can say even limitations) that our consciousness perceives some phenomenal reality out of the aggregation of the common particle.When we are away from the house, reality of the common particles ( of electrons and quarks) persist but phenomenal reality of the house no longer persists ( due to absence of the mind and consciousness)
When consciousness perceives any physical reality at its fundamental level ( electrons and quarks) thru the filters of mind and senses, that physical reality assumes the form of the phenomenal reality.
So in the absence of mind, senses and consciousness, of course, the reality of the material objects may persist but not in the form of phenomenal reality as we perceive.
Regards.
Vinod Sehgal
On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 3:12 AM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Reality Has Its Own Purpose In and For ItselfBhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.Princeton Bhakti Vedanta InstituteDecember 30, 2016In a recent article by Deepak Chopra, MD, “Can We Evolve Beyond Evolution? We Have To” [1] it was mentioned that“-- The reality we accept is a human construct.”“-- We should see ourselves as conscious creators who imbue reality with our own purposes.”While many people think this way there are also those who believe reality is fixed in stone beyond whatever they may think of it. To some extent both are right. We do have the freedom to interpret what we experience, and mind does play a role in determining what the senses observe. At the same time reality doesn’t just disappear when we do not perceive it. Our house is still there when we go to work for several hours. For instance, it could burn down when we are not there. So it is not all a human construct, and as for purposes they also are not solely created by us.A more satisfactory conception would be one that includes and harmonizes both the idealism of a mind or consciousness based creation of reality, and the realism of the inherent purposefulness of an already existing reality of which we are part and parcel.The reality people experience is a human construct insofar as it is limited to sensuous perception of the phenomenal world of appearance, as well as the circumscribed judgments of finite understanding. However, this does not reach to the noumenal Reality in and for itself beyond or behind its apparent or phenomenal surface. In India the mayavad philosophy of Brahman Satyam, Jagat Mithyä claims that Reality is purely a product of human misconception and only Brahman as mere impersonal consciousness (an oxymoron since consciousness is the essence of personality) is the absolute reality or truth. This philosophy, also called kevaladvaita, however, does not provide an alternative to material reductionism but merely an alternative reductionism. Instead of reducing everything to matter it proposes to reduce everything to impersonal consciousness. In fact, what is needed is an alternative way of thinking that is not based solely on the judgments of a finite ego that is found, for instance, in the abstract thinking of Kantian philosophy in the West as well as in the kevaladvaita interpretations of Shankaracharya in the East.To continue reading the entire articleGood wishes for a peaceful and harmonious New Year of selfless service,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.Please visit us on Facebook
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
For anyone interestedHappy holidays
From: 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 9:43:07 PM
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
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Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Science and Scientist - 2016
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Muralidhar K C
Jan 3, 2017, 7:14:36 AM1/3/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
To: Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Namaste.
"The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
The reality we conceptualize stems from living- the experience of which cannot be a construct, obviously; at the same time the over-dependence on dogmas does seem to contradict the very essence of Vedas; it appears as though only science does all the good work of keeping things in a proper perspective.
History (whether posited or learnt or experienced), confined as contents of memory within, when engaged intellectually in the present, either galvanizes or immobilizes our train of thoughts or activities depending on the degree of responses from within; obviously our responses are not independent- there are scores of factors that influence our responses; it means that unless the genuineness of our responses are verifiable by some authentic means its validity may remain doubtful; in other words, the very process of verification needs to be validated first.
May be the validity is characterized by distinct demonstration- at every stage of its manifestation.
Regardless of what constitutes history of religious truth or even scientific facts, it is the quality of respective responses to the significant events of history that decides the progress of mankind; there, it is the complex nature of man that assumes more importance than any underlying truth in history or science. Consequently, in search of answers for any metaphysical or ontological query it is more reasonable to find ways of exploring man first; may be it should be as a whole by appropriate means than by limiting the investigation only to what humans or other species are found to be physically or biologically constituted of.
On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 3:12 AM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Reality Has Its Own Purpose In and For ItselfBhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.Princeton Bhakti Vedanta InstituteDecember 30, 2016In a recent article by Deepak Chopra, MD, “Can We Evolve Beyond Evolution? We Have To” [1] it was mentioned that“-- The reality we accept is a human construct.”“-- We should see ourselves as conscious creators who imbue reality with our own purposes.”While many people think this way there are also those who believe reality is fixed in stone beyond whatever they may think of it. To some extent both are right. We do have the freedom to interpret what we experience, and mind does play a role in determining what the senses observe. At the same time reality doesn’t just disappear when we do not perceive it. Our house is still there when we go to work for several hours. For instance, it could burn down when we are not there. So it is not all a human construct, and as for purposes they also are not solely created by us.A more satisfactory conception would be one that includes and harmonizes both the idealism of a mind or consciousness based creation of reality, and the realism of the inherent purposefulness of an already existing reality of which we are part and parcel.The reality people experience is a human construct insofar as it is limited to sensuous perception of the phenomenal world of appearance, as well as the circumscribed judgments of finite understanding. However, this does not reach to the noumenal Reality in and for itself beyond or behind its apparent or phenomenal surface. In India the mayavad philosophy of Brahman Satyam, Jagat Mithyä claims that Reality is purely a product of human misconception and only Brahman as mere impersonal consciousness (an oxymoron since consciousness is the essence of personality) is the absolute reality or truth. This philosophy, also called kevaladvaita, however, does not provide an alternative to material reductionism but merely an alternative reductionism. Instead of reducing everything to matter it proposes to reduce everything to impersonal consciousness. In fact, what is needed is an alternative way of thinking that is not based solely on the judgments of a finite ego that is found, for instance, in the abstract thinking of Kantian philosophy in the West as well as in the kevaladvaita interpretations of Shankaracharya in the East.To continue reading the entire articleGood wishes for a peaceful and harmonious New Year of selfless service,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.Please visit us on Facebook
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
For anyone interestedHappy holidays
From: 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 9:43:07 PM
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
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August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
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BMP
Jan 4, 2017, 8:15:43 PM1/4/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Respected Vinod,
Atomic or subatomic particles, electrons, quarks, and so on, all have empirically determinate properties. That means they are just as phenomenal as houses, trees and people. They may not be visible to the naked eye, but they or their effects become visible with the proper material instruments, just as an organic cell may be visible under a microscope. Thus they do not constitute what is considered a true noumenal ground (thing in itself) of phenomena.
The fundamental particles of physics do not come from themselves but from the minds/theories of scientists. Consequently they are severely limited models of reality that do not correspond completely to the reality they are modeling. Scientists know quite well that the current theory of fundamental particles is inconsistent with gravity and large scale phenomena on the cosmic level. Disruptive singularities create dark energy and black holes in the fabric of the cosmos. That is why an attempt is being made to develop totally new theories that correct for these anomalies - such as string theory. But that has so far proven to be illusive - requiring double digit multidimensional parameters that are far beyond any intuitive grasp of the three dimensional world in which we build houses, bridges and so on.
To add to the inadequacies of fundamental atomic theories is the quantum puzzle which holds the whole idea of "particle" in abeyance. Even three dimensional space is abandoned in the infinite dimensional Hilbert space of Quantum Mechanics (QM). This undermines you whole idea of objective particles existing in space without an observer to collapse the wave function before such particles can be detected. So when you say "Of course, our house does not vanish when we are away from the house." you are not being consistent with QM - at least not with that particular interpretation of it.
An honest appraisal puts the whole idea of describing reality in terms of fundamental particles in jeopardy. Not only are the above mentioned problems unresolved but such atomic theories are not sufficient since they only provide the passive matter but not the efficient agency to move such matter in any way by which it could form an intelligible structure. Even if they are given a mysterious motive power of their own with their own forces, the random or chance encounters and combinations of such particles lack the ability to create anything of self sustaining endurance, what to speak of having a purpose or end by which it could justify its existence.
What this means is that something like a house is not merely a configuration of atomic particles. It is a lot more than that. Even if you think a house is just a product of inert bricks, the bricks do have to be ordered/organized in a certain way to make it a house rather than a wall, or a bridge, or an archway, and so on. So a house is a lot more than just bricks. It is also an order or organisation, and that involves agents, intelligence, plans, and so on. Therefore, the reality of a house can never be considered just a heap of material units of any size, however small or large.
But that is only the beginning of the problem of atomistic ontologies because the existence of minds, intelligence and consciousness are not even within the explanatory scope of discontinuous phenomena of insentient discreet units.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 2:20 AM
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
rom: Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com>
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com>
BMP
Jan 4, 2017, 9:02:59 PM1/4/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Muralidhar K.C.
Namaste.
Thank you for your reply to my message. You wrote:
>may be it should be as a whole by appropriate means than by limiting the >investigation only to what humans or other species are found to be physically or >biologically constituted of.
This idea is consistent with the Bhakti Vedanta conception of the Organic Whole as the proper way to comprehend Reality. The organism as a whole is the true object of study, as we find with Aristotle, Goethe, and Hegel for instance, and Hans Driesch in 1907 wrote of his experimental studies supporting the organismic conception in his SCIENCE AND PHILOSOPHY OF THE ORGANISM.
Biologists mainly turned to molecular biology exclusively and left the organismic approach and the strong scientific evidence supporting it to history. There are many reasons for that type of reductionist fascination by which they became captivated, motivated in large part by the particulate conception that prevailed in the successes of physics. But the organism as a whole is the true unit with which biology should engage its studies. This does not minimize molecular biology but when reason is brought to bear upon the dialectical conception of form/matter or consciousness/content in its objective reality, and not merely as a subjective ideality, science (in both the spiritual and physical realms) will be brought back from its abstract unreality into the light of the present living truth which we are all searching to actually know for the first time.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
|
From: Muralidhar K C <personal...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
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Sungchul Ji
Jan 5, 2017, 5:11:05 AM1/5/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Hi Puri ji, Chopra ji, and list,
"The reality we accept is a human construct.” (Deepak Chopra)
"The reality we conceptualize stems from living- the experience of which cannot be a construct." (Bhakti Madhava Puri)
These two statements seem mutually contradictory and antagonistic if the word "reality" is interpreted in the Saussurean (1857-19130) dyadic manner (i.e., based on the signifier-signified, or sign-object dyad) but not if interpreted in a irreducibly triadic manner of Charles Sanders Peirce (1839-1914) (i.e., based on the object-sign-interpretant triad).
According to Peirce, all words are irreducibly triadic, including the word "reality", which idea can be represented diagrammatically as shown below:
f g
REALITY: Reality as Is ---------> Reality as Experienced ---------> Reality as Modeled
(Firstness) (Secondness) (Thirdness)
<Object> <Sign> <Interpretant>
| ^
| |
| |
| | |
|___________________________________________________|
h
Figure 1. The postulate that Reality is irreducibly triadic, i.e., Reality has three irreducible aspects, each belonging to the ontological categories of Firstness (e.g., qualitiy, potentiality), Secondness (e.g., facts, actuality), or Thirdness (e.g., habit, regularity, abstraction), respectively. "Interpretant" = the effect that the sign has on the mind of the interpreter. f = natural process, g = mental process, and h = correspondence, grounding, or information flow.
The Chopra statement above seems to emphasize the Thirdness aspect (and Process g) of Reality while the Puri statement emphasizes the Secondness aspect (and Process f). Thus both these statements are correct but only partially. A complete statement may require combining both these statements AND some objective evidence corresponding to Process h, thereby conserving the irreducible triadic relation (ITR) of Peirce or the property of a category in mathematics [1].
Any questions or comments would be welcome.
Sung
Reference:
[1] Ji, S. (2017). The Cell Language Theory: Connecting Matter and Mind. Imperial College Press, London (in press). Chapter 9.
On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Muralidhar K C <personal...@gmail.com> wrote:
To: Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Namaste.
"The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
The reality we conceptualize stems from living- the experience of which cannot be a construct, obviously; at the same time the over-dependence on dogmas does seem to contradict the very essence of Vedas; it appears as though only science does all the good work of keeping things in a proper perspective.
History (whether posited or learnt or experienced), confined as contents of memory within, when engaged intellectually in the present, either galvanizes or immobilizes our train of thoughts or activities depending on the degree of responses from within; obviously our responses are not independent- there are scores of factors that influence our responses; it means that unless the genuineness of our responses are verifiable by some authentic means its validity may remain doubtful; in other words, the very process of verification needs to be validated first.
May be the validity is characterized by distinct demonstration- at every stage of its manifestation.
Regardless of what constitutes history of religious truth or even scientific facts, it is the quality of respective responses to the significant events of history that decides the progress of mankind; there, it is the complex nature of man that assumes more importance than any underlying truth in history or science. Consequently, in search of answers for any metaphysical or ontological query it is more reasonable to find ways of exploring man first; may be it should be as a whole by appropriate means than by limiting the investigation only to what humans or other species are found to be physically or biologically constituted of.
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Sungchul Ji, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy
Rutgers University
Piscataway, N.J. 08855
732-445-4701
www.conformon.net
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Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy
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BMP
Jan 6, 2017, 9:23:08 AM1/6/17
to Online Sadhu Sanga
On Jan 4 2017 con...@howgravityworks.org wrote:
> "The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
>I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some even are able to alter >others reality by their mere physical presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all >their realities would seem to be false.
REPLY
This seems to be as concise an assessment of the situation as any already presented.
It is reasonable to say that individuals may have different interpretations of reality, but in itself Reality is not simply a matter of being a human construct or there would be no meaning to 'error,' 'mistake,' 'illusion,' and so on. Indeed there would be no meaning to 'truth' as opposed to untruth.
Human consciousness is limited to its body. An individual is conscious only to the limits of its skin or surface. One may see a tree, or a star, or a bat - but that same individual cannot know or be conscious of what it is like to be a bat, as one recent American philosopher, Thomas Nagel, famously announced in The Philosophical Review in October 1974.
A human being has direct consciousness of its body and of its thoughts, but beyond that it has only representations (signs), images, or reflections (on the mind's mirror) of the world outside its body. Human consciousness is therefore NOT the consciousness of trees, stars, bats, or anything else. It is conscious of other things beyond its body, but not the consciousness of those things.
However, there is a consciousness of both individual human consciousness and the other things/persons of which an individual may be conscious. That universal consciousness is not only the consciousness of all Reality but also the consciousness of itself, i.e. it is self-consciousness in and for Itself. This universal self-consciousness is identical with itself as Reality, since Reality is the manifestation or expression of itself as real (being-for-other, or Otherness), while not losing its being-for-itself or self-consciousness as its ideality or Self-Concept. Here we find the true dynamic meaning of Advaita (non-duality), or the negation of dvaita (duality). Reality as the Otherness of Universal Self-consciousness is simultaneously Other (different from) yet identical (same as) universal Self consciousness being the manifest determinateness of what Self-consciousness is.
To strip Universal Self-consciousness of its Reality is to abstract consciousness from its concrete Truth as Self-consciousness of Itself. In other words, it is to end up with a one-sided mental abstraction from the concrete or whole truth. There are two mistakes here: 1. not only is Universal Self-consciousness abstracted from Its own Reality, but 2. Self-consciousness is naievly reduced to consciousness which lacks the integral unity essential to it (the Self or true Ego) - what Kant called the unity of apperception.
These mistakes are the result of relying on contingent irrational intuitions (instincts) without proper philosophical study or knowledge of the logical necessity that governs the internal rationality of all thought sequences or movement. Philosophers of Spirit have studied and reached rational conclusions on the nature of consciousness and its ground in Spirit. Those who ignore that body of knowledge are illiterate and can only be victimized by their own conditioned instincts. That is not how human knowledge or science advances.
When an image is reflected in a mirror, the image is not considered to be the result of glass and silver of the mirror somehow acting to create the image. The image has its orgin outside of the mirror and is made of completely different stuff. A tree reflected in a lake is not made of water. A radio playing back a broadcast it has received is not producing the broadcast from itself. Each of these examples provide metaphors for how to understand the difference between a reality outside of human consciousness can be reflected within an individual's consciousness without being the product of that consciousness.
At the same time Reality is not fixed in stone; it is not an inert slab or impersonal substance. It does not exist only as a reflection within human consciousness, nor as a product of human consciousness. Such ideas do not pass the examination of rational thought. The idea that Reality is Self-conscious Thinking Being in and for itself [Spirit/God] does not suffer that defect. An individual is a finite moment or instantiation of Living Reality that reflects that Reality immanently within its infinitesimal self and can interpret or misinterpret it according to the extent of its knowledge and wisdom.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
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Original message appears in Sadhu sanga digest for Jan 3 - 4
contact (con...@howgravityworks.org) Jan 4
"The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some even are able to alter others reality by their mere physical presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all their realities would seem to be false.
Being an electrical contractor my entire working life, I have observed the following scenario; I am working in a large commercial building with a thousand people sitting in cubicles with phones and computers.
There's everyone from CEO to janitor working there also.
Suddenly, "Boom" the electricity for the entire building goes out.
Until I can rush to the main distribution switchgear and restore power, they all become totally useless.
If the power went out permanently, they would all be sitting around candles chanting "Nam myoho renge kyo".
It's actually a frightening scenario to me. Some say, "Who would want to live without electricity."
BMP
Jan 6, 2017, 10:08:38 AM1/6/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sungchul Ji,
Pranams.
The Piercian nomenclature of firstness, etc. has always seemed to me an infantile way of approaching philosophical science. A diachronic sequence has no real conceptual value , and we might add epistemologically or logically. As you have yourself have mentioned irreducible triplicity is synchronically intrinsic to the idea of reality. So the conceptually empty terms of Pierce can be replaced by their more meaningful concepts to bring greater clarity to thought. For whatever reason Pierce originally introduced those chronological terms he seems to have been ejected them himself in his later more important writings on semiotics.
Philosophy in the West since Plato has always addressed the intrinsic triplicity of all concepts, not only reality, in the terms of Universal, Particular, Singular (or indivdiual). This is a more natural and rational way of explaining the intrinsic triplicity by which reason comprehends or conceives everything including itself.
We use triplicity every time we concieve, for example, fruit as a Universal or genus, cherries, as a Particular kind or species of fruit, and the instantiation of the species or Individual specimen that is popped into the mouth when eaten.
Everything implicitly bears this triplicity of Universal, Particular and Individual (UPI). A tree is a Universal concept that has its corresponding Particularities of kinds of trees, such as Oak, Poplar, Fir, and so on. The Individual trees that you encounter in the forest are instantiations of the unity of Universal and Particular in a Singular instance. Even the "I" or ego is a Universal (everyone calls themselves "I") a Particular (unique or peculiar identity) and Singular (an instantiated individual body).
Dr. Chopra's conception of consciousness is respectfully critiqued in my previous emails to this group. It seems to be lacking in firm philosophical reasoning, based more upon instinct, and influenced strongly by the entrenched dogmatics of a particular ancient school of thought in India. It does not compare with a more rigorous (one might say 'scientific') philosophical study of the subject of consciousness and self consciousness that has been developed in the West, especially in light of the modern period starting with Descartes, Kant and the German Idealists, especially Hegel, and those who have followed them to the present day. Extant knowledge on the subject of consciousness does not support what would be considered to be a naively abstract and indeterminate universality that fails to consider the particularity and individuality that accompanies the concept of consciousness.
The Bhakti Vedanta conception follows along the lines of the Hegelian philosophy of the Absolute or Spirit, which accords with the teachings of acintya bedha bedha tattva of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (the identity of identity and difference). If one tries to understand this one will fail (acintya) because it involves contradiction that stymies the fixity of thought that characterizes understanding. The only way to comprehend it is through a fluidized thinking that grasps the dynamic movement of thought that characterizes living self-conscious reality.
Thus to answer your question, it seems your way of conceiving triplicity lacks an explicated rational basis so you are left with contingently combining whatever three terms you deem appropriate without recognizing the necessary logical development or relation articulated between them. You specify the object, the representation within a subject (sign), and the individual person (self-consciousness) as the signifier or interpreter of the representation. Dr. Chopra limits his conception to consciousness, into which the representation or sign of an object is reflected. The interpreter is self-consciousness beyond the mere consciousness or passive reflector/awareness of objects. The Bhakti Vedanta conception is concerned with the triplicity of self conscious Reality in its Universal objectivity as its own self-manifestion to Itself as Otherness, Particular subjectivity as finite consciousness in its many forms, and Individual as the unitive return from Itself as Otherness to itself as Self-consciousness or Personality/God. This totality as a living whole including its self-movement and self-development is what is being called Reality in and for Itself.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.http://bviscs.org
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From: Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
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Menas Kafatos
Jan 7, 2017, 2:32:29 AM1/7/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
There are of course a host of fundamental triadic aspects of reality: Sat-ChitAnanda. Siva, Sakti, and Jiva/Nara in Saivism. Object-subject and
process linking them. Three Laws
of Nature (complementarity, recursion,
interactivity), etc.
Yes, category theory and t- Topos reveal the triadic nature in mathematics.
Sent from my iPhone
<OutlookEmoji-1478822725266_supergenes-960x200.jpg.jpg>
From: 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 9:43:07 PM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Respected Vinod, my point was that this analytic (reductionist) mentality is being cultivated and validated by what is currently accepted as scientific thinking. This is an epistemological and ontological problem that needs to be addressed by scientists and educators in all fields as its widespread effects are shaping the personal, social, economic, and theological attitudes and conceptions of modern civilization.
There are two problems. First, making scientists who are blind to this problem aware that there is such a problem. Second, understanding how to correct it.
Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
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From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Celebration of most of the festivals of all the religions, be it Hinduism or Islama or Sikhsism, Deepawal, Dussehra, Eid, GuruPurab have become orgy of consumer frenzy without any context. Christmas being no exception.
Vinod Sehgal
On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 1:28 PM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> wrote:
<blob.jpg>
Text Without Context is a Pretext of knowledge.
One of the greatest limitations of scientificthinking is the inability of scientists tounderstand the fallacy of context-free analysis.
Christmas commemorates the incarnation of theSon of God. Taken out of context it becomes anorgy of consumer frenzy. Holy Days become Holidays.
Sincere Wishes for a Blessed Christmas
Bhakti Madhava Puri
To: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 1:10 PM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
The False Elephant and the False Ego
bySripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.(Serving Director, Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture and Science)This post originally published at: https://www.facebook.com/ bviscs/photos/a. 283565131663203.77513. 278907435462306/ 1399432143409824/?type=3& theater
<15541349_1399432143409824_3780899234476546176_n.jpg>
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jim kowall
Jan 7, 2017, 2:33:01 AM1/7/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear Dr. Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja,
I'm writing in response to your comments in Sadhu-Sanga about the False Elephant and the False Ego. You rightly point out that there are many puzzles about the nature of matter and how modern particle physics can be unified with relativity theory and cosmology in a way that also takes into account the nature of mind and consciousness.
As I see things, all the pieces of the puzzle have already been discovered. All that is needed is to put all the pieces of the puzzle together in a logically consistent way. Amanda Gefter has gone a long way toward putting all the pieces of the puzzle together in a logically consistent way as she surveys the landscape of modern physics in her recent book Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn. She draws these conclusions based on the recent discoveries of dark energy and the holographic principle. The brief outline below extends her work to its logical conclusion. More details can be found in my recent article with Pradeep Deshpande in the December 2016 issue of JCER. Here is the basic outline:
1. In an ontological sense, everything begins and ends with the void (the true vacuum state). The void can never really be conceptualized, but for the purposes of developing a conceptual system, we can conceptualize the void as nothingness, an empty space of potentiality, or undifferentiated (non-dual) consciousness.
2. Creation (as in the creation of the world in the big bang event) requires both the expenditure of energy and the differentiation of consciousness. In relativity theory, this creative energy is called dark energy, which is understood as the expansion of space that expands relative to the central point of view of an observer. Due to the limitation of the speed of light (as a means of information transfer in three dimensional space) a cosmic horizon surrounds the observer at the central point of view. If we apply the holographic principle to the observer's cosmic horizon, then all the bits of information that define the configuration states of every observable thing the observer can observe in its world are encoded on the observer's horizon, which acts as a holographic screen that projects the images of all things to the observer's central point of view. This also gives a conceptual explanation for the differentiation of the observer's consciousness at the central point of view or singularity of its world, which is the point of origin of the big bang event.
3. The relational interpretation of quantum theory tells us that with the expenditure of dark energy every observer has its own world defined by its own observer-dependent cosmic horizon, which explains the nature of cosmic consciousness. The Hilbert space that defines everything observable in the observer's world is understood in terms of bits of information encoded on the observer's own cosmic horizon. A consensual reality shared by many observers becomes possible if their respective cosmic horizons overlap in the sense of a Venn diagram and share information, much like the kind of information sharing that occurs in an interactive network of overlapping computer screens, like the internet.
4. Leonard Susskind realized that the observer's cosmic horizon acts as a holographic screen that projects all images of the observer's world to the observer's central point of view, just like the kind of holographic projection that occurs with a physical hologram.
5. This holographic encoding of bits of information on the observer's cosmic horizon is a consequence of non-commutative geometry. If position coordinates are defined on the observer's horizon by a finite number of non-commuting variables rather than a continuum of commuting position coordinates, then in effect each quantized position coordinate on the horizon is smeared out into an area element that acts like a pixel and that encodes a bit of information in a binary code of 1's and 0's. If there are a total of n non-commuting variables defined on the horizon, these n bits of information are defined by the n eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix. The Hilbert space for the observer's world is then defined by the n non-commuting variables. In quantum gravity, the pixel size is about a Planck area, which gives the total number of bits of information encoded on the horizon in terms of horizon area as n=(horizon area)/4(Planck area), which is the holographic principle.
6. Gravity, which is the curvature of the 3+1 dimensional space-time geometry projected from the observer's holographic screen to the observer's central point of view, is then understood to arise from the holographic principle as a thermal average when things are near thermal equilibrium. Ted Jacobson has shown that Einstein's field equation for the space-time metric arise from the holographic principle as thermodynamic equations of state, which are only valid as a thermal averages near thermal equilibrium. Einstein's field equations are then understood to only have the validity of a low energy limit.
7. Unification of particle physics with gravity then becomes possible through the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism of extra compactified dimensions of space. When these unification mechanisms are applied to Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric, all the usual quantum fields of the standard model of particle physics are generated as extra components of the space-time metric. The final result is akin to 11-dimensional super-gravity, which is part of M-theory, and is understood as a low energy limit. Internal structure of particles, like electric and nuclear charge, is understood as momentum quantized in extra compactified dimensions, while external structure, like ordinary quantized energy and momentum, is understood as a wave-packet in the 3+1 extended dimensions of space-time. Since this particle behavior is understood to arise from components of the space-time metric, which is only valid as a thermal average near thermal equilibrium, all so-called fundamental forces and elementary particles are understood as a low energy limit or an effective field theory that arises as a thermodynamic equation of state.
8. This analysis shows the importance of geometric mechanisms as a means of creation. The expansion of space that occurs with the expression of dark energy and the holographic encoding of bits of information on an observer's horizon that occurs with non-commutative geometry are both geometric mechanisms of creation. The unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and extra compactified dimensions of space are also geometric mechanisms of creation. Without these geometric mechanisms, there is no creation.
9. The observable space-time geometry of the observer's world is not only projected from the observer's holographic screen to the observer's central point of view, but is also animated over a sequence of screen outputs. In the sense of quantum theory, a screen output (projection) is a quantum state reduction, while animation (like the animated frames of a movie) is an ordered sequence of screen outputs. The quantum state of potentiality of the observer's screen is defined by all possible ways bits of information can become encoded on the screen (in the sense of a sum over all possible paths in an information configuration space), and a screen output is a choice that chooses an actual path or state of information. A sequence of screen outputs (animation) arises in the normal flow of energy through the observer's world (normal in the sense of thermodynamics and the normal flow of heat from hotter to colder states). This gives rise to the normal course of time through the observer's world as an ordered sequence of screen outputs. In the sense of quantum theory, the normal way for this animation to occur is to follow the path of least action, which is like the shortest distance between two points in the information configuration space, and which gives rise to the principle of least action as the classical limit of the quantum state.
10. The normal flow of energy through the observer's world is understood to arise from an instability in the amount of dark energy. Inflationary cosmology postulates that at the initial moment of creation (the big bang event) dark energy took on a maximal value, but due to an instability, the value of dark energy transitions to a lower value, typically over a sequence of transitions, each of which is like a phase transition or a process of symmetry breaking. In each phase transition, some dark energy burns away and is radiated away as heat. Each phase transition is like the transition from a metastable false vacuum state to a more stable vacuum state of lower energy. As each transition occurs, the observer's cosmic horizon inflates in size and cools in temperature. This temperature gradient drives the normal flow of energy through the observer's world as heat tends to flow from hotter to colder states of the observer's world. This flow of energy gives rise to both the projection of the observer's space-time geometry from the observer's horizon (that acts as a holographic screen) to the observer's central point of view and the animation of the observer's space-time geometry over a sequence of screen outputs.
11. The true vacuum state (which is called the void) has zero dark energy and absolute stability. In the final transition to the true vacuum state, dark energy burns away to zero and the observer's horizon inflates in size to infinity and cools to absolute zero. In the sense that the observer's horizon breaks the symmetry of empty space, this final transition restores the symmetry of space. In this final transition, the space-time geometry of the observer's world is no longer projected from the observer's screen or animated over a sequence of screen outputs, and so the observer's world disappears from existence. In a metaphysical sense, this final transition to nothingness is both the end of the creation of the observer's world and the end of the differentiation of the observer's consciousness.
12. In this conceptual framework, the observer can have both a physical body and an ego or self-concept. The observer's physical body is defined by how bits of information are coherently organized on the observer's holographic screen with the ability for self-replication of form over a sequence of screen outputs. Coherent organization allows bits of information to become organized into recognizable forms that are projected from the observer's screen to the observer's point of view, and for forms to become animated over a sequence of screen outputs. The observer's physical body is born with the development of coherent organization (in the sense of symmetry breaking or a phase transition) and physical body death is a result of the loss of coherent organization and disorganization of form. All observable forms are projected like the animated images of a movie from the observer's holographic screen to the observer's central point of view.
13. The observer also has a self-concept that in some sense is independent of its physical body. Psychology tells us the self-concept or ego is body-based, but modern physics tells us the self-concept must have an extent in space and time that goes beyond the limits of the physical body. The reason the ego extends beyond the limits of the physical body has to do with quantum entanglement. All the bits of information that define the observer’s world are entangled because they’re encoded on the observer’s holographic screen. Entanglement is a consequence of holographic encoding, like the entangled bits of information defined by the n eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix. Entanglement means the bits of information that give rise to the mental construction of the observer’s ego are not just located within the physical limits of the observer’s body or even to those things physically connected to the body, but extend throughout the observer’s world. This tells us the observer's holographic screen (that defines its world) is also a mental screen that allows for the mental construction of the observer's self-concept. Entanglement is in effect before the observer's physical body is born and after its physical body dies. Entanglement can give rise to the mental construction of the observer's self-concept, which has the nature of self-referential thoughts, and allows for mental construction of the observer’s ego even after body death. Bits of information entangled on the observer's screen can give rise to memories and self-referential thoughts that do not depend on a physical body. Self-referential thoughts are emotionally energized by expressions of desire to live a life in the world. In some sense, the manifestation of a physical body is a manifestation of that desire. That desire arises with the normal flow of energy through the observer's world that animates its world, which can be traced back to the expression of dark energy that creates the observer's world in the first place.
14. The projection of images from the observer's screen to the observer's point of view is like the projection of movie images with the light of a movie projector or the projection of images from a physical hologram with the light of a laser. This projecting light can be called the light of consciousness, which can only emanate from the observer's own focal point of consciousness. The observer's light of consciousness gives rise to the observer's focus of attention, which allows for choice in the sense of quantum state reduction. Although the normal flow of energy through the observer's world may be sufficient to explain just about everything that appears to happen in its world, there are some things that it can't explain. The normal (thermodynamic) flow of energy is unbiased as long as the choices that reduce the quantum state are unbiased, but as is well known, choices can and often do become emotionally biased. The expression of emotional bias interferes with the normal flow of things in the sense of a quantum interference pattern. The normal (unbiased) choice is to follow the path of least action, but with the expression of emotional bias, it's possible to choose to follow another path that deviates from the normal path, which can happen when the observer's focus of attention becomes emotionally biased. When choices become emotionally biased, the laws of physics lose their predictability. Emotional bias in the observer's focus of attention is what makes events in the observer's world unpredictable.
Sincerely
Jim Kowall
On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:11 PM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Respected Vinod,Atomic or subatomic particles, electrons, quarks, and so on, all have empirically determinate properties. That means they are just as phenomenal as houses, trees and people. They may not be visible to the naked eye, but they or their effects become visible with the proper material instruments, just as an organic cell may be visible under a microscope. Thus they do not constitute what is considered a true noumenal ground (thing in itself) of phenomena.The fundamental particles of physics do not come from themselves but from the minds/theories of scientists. Consequently they are severely limited models of reality that do not correspond completely to the reality they are modeling. Scientists know quite well that the current theory of fundamental particles is inconsistent with gravity and large scale phenomena on the cosmic level. Disruptive singularities create dark energy and black holes in the fabric of the cosmos. That is why an attempt is being made to develop totally new theories that correct for these anomalies - such as string theory. But that has so far proven to be illusive - requiring double digit multidimensional parameters that are far beyond any intuitive grasp of the three dimensional world in which we build houses, bridges and so on.To add to the inadequacies of fundamental atomic theories is the quantum puzzle which holds the whole idea of "particle" in abeyance. Even three dimensional space is abandoned in the infinite dimensional Hilbert space of Quantum Mechanics (QM). This undermines you whole idea of objective particles existing in space without an observer to collapse the wave function before such particles can be detected. So when you say "Of course, our house does not vanish when we are away from the house." you are not being consistent with QM - at least not with that particular interpretation of it.An honest appraisal puts the whole idea of describing reality in terms of fundamental particles in jeopardy. Not only are the above mentioned problems unresolved but such atomic theories are not sufficient since they only provide the passive matter but not the efficient agency to move such matter in any way by which it could form an intelligible structure. Even if they are given a mysterious motive power of their own with their own forces, the random or chance encounters and combinations of such particles lack the ability to create anything of self sustaining endurance, what to speak of having a purpose or end by which it could justify its existence.What this means is that something like a house is not merely a configuration of atomic particles. It is a lot more than that. Even if you think a house is just a product of inert bricks, the bricks do have to be ordered/organized in a certain way to make it a house rather than a wall, or a bridge, or an archway, and so on. So a house is a lot more than just bricks. It is also an order or organisation, and that involves agents, intelligence, plans, and so on. Therefore, the reality of a house can never be considered just a heap of material units of any size, however small or large.But that is only the beginning of the problem of atomistic ontologies because the existence of minds, intelligence and consciousness are not even within the explanatory scope of discontinuous phenomena of insentient discreet units.Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Respected Bhakti Madhava Puriji Maharaj,Pranama,Of course, our house does not vanish when we are away from the house. But what is a house? A house or that purpose any material object is an aggregation of the matter particles --atoms and molecules held together by forces in some specified configuration. Atoms and molecules of all the entities are further composed of more basic parts -- electrons and quarks. Though not yet known to Physicists, but in future, Physicists may discover one particle forming a common link in all the material objects.Therefore, any house of whatever shape, color, size it may be is nothing but an aggregation of electrons and quarks as manifesting from one common element. But our senses do not perceive the reality of the common element. It is due to our mental perceptual capability ( or one can say even limitations) that our consciousness perceives some phenomenal reality out of the aggregation of the common particle.When we are away from the house, reality of the common particles ( of electrons and quarks) persist but phenomenal reality of the house no longer persists ( due to absence of the mind and consciousness)When consciousness perceives any physical reality at its fundamental level ( electrons and quarks) thru the filters of mind and senses, that physical reality assumes the form of the phenomenal reality.So in the absence of mind, senses and consciousness, of course, the reality of the material objects may persist but not in the form of phenomenal reality as we perceive.Regards.Vinod Sehgal
--
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hsc1937
Jan 7, 2017, 2:33:27 AM1/7/17
to Online_Sadhu_Sanga
你好！
信中“基本粒子物理学的不是来自自己，而是从科学家的工作做一个思想理论。因此，他们是现实的极为有限模型不完全对应现实他们现实的建模。”我的数学计算结论是：
引力的实质是什么（参见附件1）
香港前沿科学研究院 许世传
交流E-mail：hsc...@163.com
摘要：牛顿提出万有引力定律已300多年，至今引力成因仍是谜。本文用[正反一次筛]新型数论，阐明在耦合强度作用下，能量嬗变为物质时，孪生出等量的反物质，与其他普通物质发生交叉的异性吸引力。从而推导出万有引力的定义数值公式，统一了四个作用力；本文对宇宙的生灭能自圆其说。
关键词：正反一次筛；物质是能量的结晶体；夸克存在形式是质能分界线；反物质是宇宙基因.
The Essence of Gravitation
Xu Shichuan
(Head luck garden 6-503,Lotus villageⅢ ,Futian District,Shenzhen City,518026)
KUNG TAI CO.(Hang Kong)
Abatract:It has been more the three hundred years since Newton proposed the law of universal gravitation ,nevertheless, the cause of the gravitation is still up in the air. By applying a new mathematical theory called “2-way sieve ”,this article explains that under the action of the coupling strength ,when the energy turns into substance, it also gives birth to an equal amount of antimatter which produces cross gravitation with other common substance.Finally,this article deduces the definition numerical formula which unifies the four forces.
Key words：2-way sieve;substance is the crystal material of energy; Quark’s existing form is the mass-energy line;Antimatter is gene of the universe
0 引 言
到目前为止，引力的形成还是一个迷。诺贝尔奖评选委员会2008年10月7日称，究竟是什么引起引力，这个问题「对当今物理学构成了巨大的挑战」[6]
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
引力的实质是什么
（参见附件2）香港前沿科学研究院 许世传
交流E-mail：hsc...@163.com
摘要：牛顿提出万有引力定律已300多年，至今引力成因仍是谜。本文用[正反一次筛]新型数论，阐明在耦合强度作用下，能量嬗变为物质时，孪生出等量的反物质，与其他普通物质发生交叉的异性吸引力。从而推导出万有引力的定义数值公式，统一了四个作用力；本文对宇宙的生灭能自圆其说。
关键词：正反一次筛；物质是能量的结晶体；夸克存在形式是质能分界线；反物质是宇宙基因.
The Essence of Gravitation
Xu Shichuan
(Head luck garden 6-503,Lotus villageⅢ ,Futian District,Shenzhen City,518026)
KUNG TAI CO.(Hang Kong)
Abatract:It has been more the three hundred years since Newton proposed the law of universal gravitation ,nevertheless, the cause of the gravitation is still up in the air. By applying a new mathematical theory called “2-way sieve ”,this article explains that under the action of the coupling strength ,when the energy turns into substance, it also gives birth to an equal amount of antimatter which produces cross gravitation with other common substance.Finally,this article deduces the definition numerical formula which unifies the four forces.
Key words：2-way sieve;substance is the crystal material of energy; Quark’s existing form is the mass-energy line;Antimatter is gene of the universe
0 引 言
到目前为止，引力的形成还是一个迷。诺贝尔奖评选委员会2008年10月7日称，究竟是什么引起引力，这个问题「对当今物理学构成了巨大的挑战」[6]
收到复函指导？
谢谢！
许世传 HUI, Sai Chuen
2017-01-06
hsc1937
hsc1937
发件人："'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>发送时间：2017-01-05 09:11主题：Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego抄送：
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con...@howgravityworks.org
Jan 7, 2017, 9:04:17 PM1/7/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Good answer. What really disturbs me is the ability of the individual to construct a reality for themselves
that is based in no factual evidence at all. What's even more disturbing is the will of some to impose their
reality on others even though the imposer knows that the reality they are imposing is false.
An ignorant or illiterate can also create a false reality and impose it on others if they have a strong enough
personality and that is even more disturbing. Perhaps that is the true reason for Sharia Law to exist.
It would appear to be a unifying set of rules that unites and controls an otherwise barbaric and chaotic
mass of ignorant people that would be without discipline without it.
My reality is the universe is dynamical chaos that manages to fall within parameter. For example;
All Oak trees are Oaks yet, no two are ever the exactly same. No two Vidalia onions are exactly the same.
No two stars are exactly the same. At CERN and Fermilab, no two collisions are exactly the same.
Their efforts are a waste of time as any particles they create only last nanoseconds and then they "evaporate".
The really odd thing is not one physicist at those facilities ever ask "Where did they evaporate to?"...
(The only logical answer is, back to the Aether.) It's just a jobs program for physicists.
What's really odd is they pat themselves on the backs and hand out Nobel Prizes for their efforts.
I see the real benefit of those projects is that it's all good magnet R&D...... (For future Antimatter Containment)
We probably shouldn't be upset about anything. Sometimes I consider that I am the only entity in existence
and that everything and everyone in my reality is a construct for my amusement. (Or torture lately..... LOL)
(You can't enjoy the good times without a little bad.)
Residing in the urban environment give me the impression that the stupid people have propagated out of control.
And, every one of them has the right to exist..... and vote!....... (There's no hope for Humanity.)
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Fri, January 06, 2017 9:18 am
To: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
On Jan 4 2017 con...@howgravityworks.org wrote:> "The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)>I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some even are able to alter >others reality by their mere physical presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all >their realities would seem to be false.
REPLYThis seems to be as concise an assessment of the situation as any already presented.It is reasonable to say that individuals may have different interpretations of reality, but in itself Reality is not simply a matter of being a human construct or there would be no meaning to 'error,' 'mistake,' 'illusion,' and so on. Indeed there would be no meaning to 'truth' as opposed to untruth.Human consciousness is limited to its body. An individual is conscious only to the limits of its skin or surface. One may see a tree, or a star, or a bat - but that same individual cannot know or be conscious of what it is like to be a bat, as one recent American philosopher, Thomas Nagel, famously announced in The Philosophical Review in October 1974.A human being has direct consciousness of its body and of its thoughts, but beyond that it has only representations (signs), images, or reflections (on the mind's mirror) of the world outside its body. Human consciousness is therefore NOT the consciousness of trees, stars, bats, or anything else. It is conscious of other things beyond itsbody, but not the consciousness of those things.However, there is a consciousness of both individual human consciousness and the other things/persons of which an individual may be conscious. That universal consciousness is not only the consciousness of all Reality but also the consciousness of itself, i.e. it is self-consciousness in and for Itself. This universal self-consciousness is identical with itself as Reality, since Reality is the manifestation or expression of itself as real (being-for-other, or Otherness), while not losing its being-for-itself or self-consciousness as its ideality or Self-Concept. Here we find the true dynamic meaning of Advaita (non-duality), or the negation of dvaita (duality). Reality as the Otherness of Universal Self-consciousness is simultaneously Other (different from) yet identical (same as) universal Self consciousness being the manifest determinateness of what Self-consciousness is.To strip Universal Self-consciousness of its Reality is to abstract consciousness from its concrete Truth as Self-consciousness of Itself. In other words, it is to end up with a one-sided mental abstraction from the concrete or whole truth. There are two mistakes here: 1. not only is Universal Self-consciousness abstracted from Its own Reality, but 2. Self-consciousness is naievly reduced to consciousness which lacks the integral unity essential to it (the Self or true Ego) - what Kant called the unity of apperception.These mistakes are the result of relying on contingent irrational intuitions (instincts) without proper philosophical study or knowledge of the logical necessity that governs the internal rationality of all thought sequences or movement. Philosophers of Spirit have studied and reached rational conclusions on the nature of consciousness and its ground in Spirit. Those who ignore that body of knowledge are illiterate and can only be victimized by their own conditioned instincts. That is not how human knowledge or science advances.When an image is reflected in a mirror, the image is not considered to be the result of glass and silver of the mirror somehow acting to create the image. The image has its orgin outside of the mirror and is made of completely different stuff. A tree reflected in a lake is not made of water. A radio playing back a broadcast it has received is not producing the broadcast from itself. Each of these examples provide metaphors for how to understand the difference between a reality outside of human consciousness can be reflected within an individual's consciousness without being the product of that consciousness.At the same time Reality is not fixed in stone; it is not an inert slab or impersonal substance. It does not exist only as a reflection within human consciousness, nor as a product of human consciousness. Such ideas do not pass the examination of rational thought. The idea that Reality is Self-conscious Thinking Being in and for itself [Spirit/God] does not suffer that defect. An individual is a finite moment or instantiation of Living Reality that reflects that Reality immanently within its infinitesimal self and can interpret or misinterpret it according to the extent of its knowledge and wisdom.
Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Visit us on Facebook========================Original message appears in Sadhu sanga digest for Jan 3 - 4contact (con...@howgravityworks.org) Jan 4"The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some even are able to alter others reality by their mere physical presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all their realities would seem to be false.Being an electrical contractor my entire working life, I have observed the following scenario; I am working in a large commercial building with a thousand people sitting in cubicles with phones and computers.There's everyone from CEO to janitor working there also.Suddenly, "Boom" the electricity for the entire building goes out.Until I can rush to the main distribution switchgear and restore power, they all become totally useless.If the power went out permanently, they would all be sitting around candles chanting "Nam myoho renge kyo".It's actually a frightening scenario to me. Some say, "Who would want to live without electricity."
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Deepak Chopra
Jan 7, 2017, 9:04:35 PM1/7/17
to Sungchul Ji, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
How about the following :
Perceived Reality is the differentiation of Knower Knowing and Known in awareness ( consciousness being )
It is born and labeled and dies in every moment of experience.
Objects are space time events in consciousness.
Facts are modes of knowing
Perceived Reality is different in different states of consciousness.
Fundamental Reality is timeless is never born and not subject to death .
Puri ji correctly states that atoms and particles are born in the minds of theoretical physicists. Their given names are human constructs for modes of experience
They are useful models of reality but not reality itself .
Deepak Chopra
2013 Costa Del Mar Road
Hi Puri ji, Chopra ji, and list,
"The reality we accept is a human construct.” (Deepak Chopra)
"The reality we conceptualize stems from living- the experience of which cannot be a construct." (Bhakti Madhava Puri)
These two statements seem mutually contradictory and antagonistic if the word "reality" is interpreted in the Saussurean (1857-19130) dyadic manner (i.e., based on the signifier-signified, or sign-object dyad) but not if interpreted in a irreducibly triadic manner of Charles Sanders Peirce (1839-1914) (i.e., based on the object-sign-interpretant triad).
According to Peirce, all words are irreducibly triadic, including the word "reality", which idea can be represented diagrammatically as shown below:
f g
REALITY: Reality as Is ---------> Reality as Experienced ---------> Reality as Modeled
(Firstness) (Secondness) (Thirdness)
<Object> <Sign> <Interpretant>
| ^
| |
| |
| | |
|___________________________________________________|
h
Figure 1. The postulate that Reality is irreducibly triadic, i.e., Reality has three irreducible aspects, each belonging to the ontological categories of Firstness (e.g., qualitiy, potentiality), Secondness (e.g., facts, actuality), or Thirdness (e.g., habit, regularity, abstraction), respectively. "Interpretant" = the effect that the sign has on the mind of the interpreter. f = natural process, g = mental process, and h = correspondence, grounding, or information flow.
The Chopra statement above seems to emphasize the Thirdness aspect (and Process g) of Reality while the Puri statement emphasizes the Secondness aspect (and Process f). Thus both these statements are correct but only partially. A complete statement may require combining both these statements AND some objective evidence corresponding to Process h, thereby conserving the irreducible triadic relation (ITR) of Peirce or the property of a category in mathematics [1].
Any questions or comments would be welcome.
Sung
Reference:
[1] Ji, S. (2017). The Cell Language Theory: Connecting Matter and Mind. Imperial College Press, London (in press). Chapter 9.
On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Muralidhar K C <personal...@gmail.com<mailto:personal...@gmail.com>> wrote:
To: Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Namaste.
"The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
The reality we conceptualize stems from living- the experience of which cannot be a construct, obviously; at the same time the over-dependence on dogmas does seem to contradict the very essence of Vedas; it appears as though only science does all the good work of keeping things in a proper perspective.
History (whether posited or learnt or experienced), confined as contents of memory within, when engaged intellectually in the present, either galvanizes or immobilizes our train of thoughts or activities depending on the degree of responses from within; obviously our responses are not independent- there are scores of factors that influence our responses; it means that unless the genuineness of our responses are verifiable by some authentic means its validity may remain doubtful; in other words, the very process of verification needs to be validated first.
May be the validity is characterized by distinct demonstration- at every stage of its manifestation.
Regardless of what constitutes history of religious truth or even scientific facts, it is the quality of respective responses to the significant events of history that decides the progress of mankind; there, it is the complex nature of man that assumes more importance than any underlying truth in history or science. Consequently, in search of answers for any metaphysical or ontological query it is more reasonable to find ways of exploring man first; may be it should be as a whole by appropriate means than by limiting the investigation only to what humans or other species are found to be physically or biologically constituted of.
On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 3:12 AM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
Reality Has Its Own Purpose In and For Itself
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
December 30, 2016
In a recent article by Deepak Chopra, MD, “Can We Evolve Beyond Evolution? We Have To” [1] it was mentioned that
“-- The reality we accept is a human construct.”
“-- We should see ourselves as conscious creators who imbue reality with our own purposes.”
While many people think this way there are also those who believe reality is fixed in stone beyond whatever they may think of it. To some extent both are right. We do have the freedom to interpret what we experience, and mind does play a role in determining what the senses observe. At the same time reality doesn’t just disappear when we do not perceive it. Our house is still there when we go to work for several hours. For instance, it could burn down when we are not there. So it is not all a human construct, and as for purposes they also are not solely created by us.
A more satisfactory conception would be one that includes and harmonizes both the idealism of a mind or consciousness based creation of reality, and the realism of the inherent purposefulness of an already existing reality of which we are part and parcel.
The reality people experience is a human construct insofar as it is limited to sensuous perception of the phenomenal world of appearance, as well as the circumscribed judgments of finite understanding. However, this does not reach to the noumenal Reality in and for itself beyond or behind its apparent or phenomenal surface. In India the mayavad philosophy of Brahman Satyam, Jagat Mithyä claims that Reality is purely a product of human misconception and only Brahman as mere impersonal consciousness (an oxymoron since consciousness is the essence of personality) is the absolute reality or truth. This philosophy, also called kevaladvaita, however, does not provide an alternative to material reductionism but merely an alternative reductionism. Instead of reducing everything to matter it proposes to reduce everything to impersonal consciousness. In fact, what is needed is an alternative way of thinking that is not based solely on the judgments of a finite ego that is found, for instance, in the abstract thinking of Kantian philosophy in the West as well as in the kevaladvaita interpretations of Shankaracharya in the East.
To continue reading the entire article
Click here to Download<http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/?download=Reality-Has-Its-Own-Purpose-In-and-For-Itself.pdf>
Good wishes for a peaceful and harmonious New Year of selfless service,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
http://bviscs.org/
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From: Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com<mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com>>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
For anyone interested
Happy holidays
http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php
[http://www.sfgate.com/img/pages/article/opengraph_default.png]<http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php>
Can We Evolve Beyond Evolution? We Have To<http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php>
www.sfgate.com<http://www.sfgate.com>
At the very moment when our planet is well into an ecological crisis, human beings need to evolve with the conscious purpose of setting aside our selfish impulses and start acting for the survival of all living things. The standard Darwinian position, which is universally taught in biology classes, is entirely mechanical and without purpose. [...] it is extremely difficult to form a set of beliefs that is evolutionary and purposeful at the same time. In a recent piece in the New York Times titled Can Evolution Have a 'Higher Purpose'? the author, Robert Wright, attempts to square the circle with the following statement: Evolution can have a purpose even if it is a wholly mechanical, material process — that is, even if its sole engine is natural selection. The real problem is that human purposes are at odds with each other, as witness the self-serving arguments of climate change deniers who are ushering in a post-fact, post-reality view of the world. [...] it constitutes the mainstream of human thought until
2013 Costa Del Mar Road
Carlsbad, CA 92009
Chopra Foundation<http://www.choprafoundation.org/><http://www.choprafoundation.org/>
Jiyo<http://www.jiyo.com/><http://jiyo.com/><http://jiyo.com/>
Chopra Center for Wellbeing<http://www.chopra.com/><http://chopra.com/><http://chopra.com/>
<http://www.jiyo.com/>
[1478822725266_supergenes-960x200.jpg]
________________________________
From: 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 9:43:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Respected Vinod, my point was that this analytic (reductionist) mentality is being cultivated and validated by what is currently accepted as scientific thinking. This is an epistemological and ontological problem that needs to be addressed by scientists and educators in all fields as its widespread effects are shaping the personal, social, economic, and theological attitudes and conceptions of modern civilization.
There are two problems. First, making scientists who are blind to this problem aware that there is such a problem. Second, understanding how to correct it.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE – of Spiritual Culture & Science
Follow us on Facebook<http://facebook.com/bviscs>
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com<mailto:vinodse...@gmail.com>>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Celebration of most of the festivals of all the religions, be it Hinduism or Islama or Sikhsism, Deepawal, Dussehra, Eid, GuruPurab have become orgy of consumer frenzy without any context. Christmas being no exception.
Vinod Sehgal
On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 1:28 PM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
[Inline image]
Text Without Context is a Pretext of knowledge.
One of the greatest limitations of scientific
thinking is the inability of scientists to
understand the fallacy of context-free analysis.
Christmas commemorates the incarnation of the
Son of God. Taken out of context it becomes an
orgy of consumer frenzy. Holy Days become Holidays.
Sincere Wishes for a Blessed Christmas
Bhakti Madhava Puri
http://bviscs.org<http://bviscs.org/>
Visit us on Facebook<http://facebook.com/bviscs>
________________________________
To: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com<mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com>>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 1:10 PM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
The False Elephant and the False Ego
by
Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.
(Serving Director, Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture and Science)
This post originally published at: https://www.facebook.com/ bviscs/photos/a. 283565131663203.77513. 278907435462306/ 1399432143409824/?type=3& theater<https://www.facebook.com/bviscs/photos/a.283565131663203.77513.278907435462306/1399432143409824/?type=3&theater>
[Inline image]
When we look at the world through a microscope we see only cells and their internal moieties - we never see people, clouds, trees or elephants. Even the macromolecular vision of such separated entities does not show us the purpose or whole of that-for-which-each-exists. Such is the nature of the analytic thinking of finite cognition that we call modern science.
The blind men who could only feel the different limbs of an elephant they were blind to (ignorant of) concluded the legs were tree stumps, the side was a wall, the tusks were spears, the trunk a serpent, the ears a fan, and the tail a rope. Not knowing the unity of the whole they could not know the relation of each part to it. Without that knowledge they could not have a proper understanding of the parts in isolation from the whole. Even simple understanding of the function of each part in isolation could not reveal the relation of the functions to each other what to speak of their relation to the unity of the whole of which they had no clue.
Aristotle said there are four factors that had to be comprehended in explaining things: material, efficient, formal, and final (end or purpose). These four represent what a thing is made of (material), what modifies it (efficient), what plan/design guides its progressive modification (formal), the goal - what end the plan of action or modification aims for in order to cease when it is in conformity with the finished product (final end or purpose).
In reality it is the final end that determines and guides all the other factors. When the unity of the whole is sentient or self-conscious even a systems approach will not be sufficient to explain its existence. Systems are not self-conscious.
Without knowing the purpose for an individual's own self-conscious existence one has only a false conception of self, or false ego. One's true identity is established only when it is comprehended in relation to a proper concept of the Complete Whole as the all accommodating, all pervading, all unifying/attracting self conscious, self-knowing Absolute Truth Who is known by many Names.
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<15541349_1399432143409824_3780899234476546176_n.jpg>
<OutlookEmoji-1478822725266_supergenes-960x200.jpg.jpg>
<blob.jpg>
Serge Patlavskiy
Jan 8, 2017, 5:15:27 AM1/8/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
-
Menas Kafatos on January 6, 2017 wrote:
>There are of course a host of fundamental triadic aspects of
>reality: Sat-ChitAnanda. Siva, Sakti, and Jiva/Nara in Saivism.
[S.P.] Why not just to make a difference between Noumenal Reality and Phenomenal Reality? We postulate Noumenal Reality as existing objectively and independently of the process of cognition, whereas Phenomenal Reality -- it is a model of Noumenal Reality that every organism creates for itself due to activity of its consciousness.
There are as many versions of Phenomenal Reality as there are consciousness-possessing organisms, but we all share the same Noumenal Reality.
Best,
Serge Patlavskiy
From: Menas Kafatos <me...@kafatos.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 6, 2017 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
BMP
Jan 9, 2017, 6:38:09 AM1/9/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Jim -
This sounds like the modern version of the blind men and the elephant, only in the mental rather than sensuous world. First of all, the pieces of the puzzle (like the tree stumps, brick wall, and rope the blind men think they feel) have nothing to do with the reality of the elephant as it is. So the fitting together of such imagined pieces constructs something that has nothing to do with the elephant.
You begin and end with a void that you call ontological - a nothing or non-being that is or has being. I hope you realize this is contradictory. Then you claim the void can be conceived as consciousness. Why not? You have already left all reasoning behind with your first point. The rest of your story continues with the same kind of assertoric impertinence. Then you suddenly claim dark energy (which is called dark because no one knows what it is) magically arises out of the void and stimulates it into expanding as space and differentiated consciousness. In other words, something unknown stimulates something that is and is not there - which you call consciousness because you don't know what that is either.
Somehow scientists have come to see themselves as construction workers. They feel their task is to construct a reality to live in, just as they construct a house to live in. But reality is not something we have to construct around us. It is already around us, and we are living in it, and it is living in us. Humans don't construct reality, Reality produces as one of its insignificant parts, humans who think they need to construct reality so they can vainly believe that it is all a product of themselves, when in fact it is the reverse.
The question boils down to: do we need construction workers to produce Truth, Reality and God or do we need wise men who realize they are products of Reality that is already and always whole, organic, and sacred.
Sincerely,
B Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
From: jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2017 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Respected Bhakti Madhava Puriji Maharaj,Pranama,Of course, our house does not vanish when we are away from the house. But what is a house? A house or that purpose any material object is an aggregation of the matter particles --atoms and molecules held together by forces in some specified configuration. Atoms and molecules of all the entities are further composed of more basic parts -- electrons and quarks. Though not yet known to Physicists, but in future, Physicists may discover one particle forming a common link in all the material objects.Therefore, any house of whatever shape, color, size it may be is nothing but an aggregation of electrons and quarks as manifesting from one common element. But our senses do not perceive the reality of the common element. It is due to our mental perceptual capability ( or one can say even limitations) that our consciousness perceives some phenomenal reality out of the aggregation of the common particle.When we are away from the house, reality of the common particles ( of electrons and quarks) persist but phenomenal reality of the house no longer persists ( due to absence of the mind and consciousness)When consciousness perceives any physical reality at its fundamental level ( electrons and quarks) thru the filters of mind and senses, that physical reality assumes the form of the phenomenal reality.So in the absence of mind, senses and consciousness, of course, the reality of the material objects may persist but not in the form of phenomenal reality as we perceive.Regards.Vinod Sehgal
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BMP
Jan 9, 2017, 6:38:09 AM1/9/17
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Thank you, Eric for your intelligent if brutal honesty.
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
From: "con...@howgravityworks.org" <con...@howgravityworks.org>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
Edelmann,Jonathan
Jan 9, 2017, 6:53:23 AM1/9/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, Sungchul Ji, nonlo...@chopra.com
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the stimulating discussion!
That reality is “constructed” vs. “mind-independent” was discussed in considerably greater detail, with specific attention to Indian concepts such as
karma, pramāṇa, prakṛti, etc. in the sophisticated debates between Yogācāra / Vijñānavāda Buddhists (who presented a “constructed” view) and Prācīna-Nyāya (who presented a “realist” view). I think it would be helpful, given the
nature of this list, to examine those arguments. Bimal Krishna Matilal’s _Perception_ was an attempt to map out some of the arguments.
I think it is important to distinguish between aspects of reality, some of which might be constructed and others given, ask questions about the nature of the agent who is or is not able to “construct,” and the importance of the fundamentally intersubjective
nature of reality (this was something Yogācāra had to contend with).
It might also be worth noting that I.Kant’s _Critique of Pure Reason_ was in many ways a defense of a position that found a middle ground between a “constructed” view and a “realist” view.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Edelmann
Jonathan Edelmann, Assistant Professor
University of Florida, Department of Religion
Anderson Hall, Room 106
Phone: (352) 273-2932
Section Editor for “Hindu Theology,” International Journal of Hindu Studies
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Sungchul Ji
Jan 9, 2017, 6:53:23 AM1/9/17
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Puri ji,
Pramas.
P: The Piercian nomenclature of firstness, etc. has always seemed to me an infantile way of approaching philosophical science. A diachronic sequence has no real conceptual value, and we might add epistemologically or logically.
S: I believe we need both diachronicity and synchronicity, as in linguistic studies. For example, for a complete understanding of the meaning of a word, it is necessary to understand both the diachronic aspect (or the origin) of the word and its synchornic aspect (i.e., the current usage regardless of its origin). A geometric metaphor is provided by the Moebius strip -- locally (or synchronically) there are two opposite sides, A and B, but diachronically (or globally), A and B fuse as one entity.
P: As you have yourself have mentioned irreducible triplicity is synchronically intrinsic to the idea of reality. So the conceptually empty terms of Pierce can be replaced by their more meaningful concepts to bring greater clarity to thought. For whatever reason Pierce originally introduced those chronological terms he seems to have been ejected them himself in his later more important writings on semiotics.
S: I did not know that Peirce "ejected" the chronological terms "himself in his later more important writings on semioitcs". Can you provide any reference regarding this point ?
P: Philosophy in the West since Plato has always addressed the intrinsic triplicity of all concepts, not only reality, in the terms of Universal, Particular, Singular (or indivdiual). This is a more natural and rational way of explaining the intrinsic triplicity by which reason comprehends or conceives everything including itself.
We use triplicity every time we concieve, for example, fruit as a Universal or genus, cherries, as a Particular kind or species of fruit, and the instantiation of the species or Individual specimen that is popped into the mouth when eaten.
S: Not all triplicities are irreducible. For example, the triad of DNA, RNA and phenotype (cited by a prominent biosemiotician recently) is not irreducible, since DNA and RNA can be reduced to genotype, leading to the genotype-phenoytpe duality which is well established. Similarly, Helgelian triad of Universal, Particular and Individual may not represent the irreuducible triadic relation (ITR) in the Peircean sense, since it can be viewed as a partial combination of two dualities -- the social-individual duality and the universal-particular duality. This does not mean that Peircean semiotics is meaningless for Hegelian philosophy. I believe that ITR applies to the Hegelian philosophical system (please note that I am not a Hegelian philosopher nor even a professional philospher of any kind) at two levels -- (i) individual concepts of Universal, Particular, and Individual viewed as 'composite signs', probably belonging to Classes 8 or 9 (see Table 1 below) and (ii) the theoretical level integrating these three concepts, belonging to Class 10 (Table 1).
It is not surprising that ITR applies to the Hegelian philosophical system since all thinking is carried out in terms of signs and all signs obey ITR [1].
Peirce (1839-1914) divides all signs into 9 types (see Table 6.6) and 10 classes (see Table 1). The former was referred to as "elementary or e-signs" and the latter as "composite or c-signs" in [1]. Just as two or more atoms can combine to form moleucles, so three e-signs combine to form a c-sign, obeying the so-called the Peircean selection rule [1] graphically represented in Figure 1 (below) as red lines that are either vertical or tilted toward the right. There are 3^3 =27 possible triads of e-signs, but the selection rule eliminates all but 10 c-signs as listed in Table 1 with associated properties.
|
Table 6.6. The 9 types of signs (e-signs). |
|||
|
|
Firstness (1) |
Secondness (2) |
Thirdness (3) |
|
Firstness (1) |
Qualisign |
Sinsign |
Legisign |
|
Secondness (2) |
Icon |
Index |
Symbol |
|
Thirdness (3) |
Rheme |
Dicent sign |
Argument |
Figure 1. The 9 types of elementary signs (qualisign, sinsign, legisign, icon, idex, symbol, rheme, dicent sign and argment) and 10 classes of composite signs of Peirce. Adopted and quoted from John K. Sheriff, Charles Peirce’s Guess at the Riddle: Grounds for Human Significance. Indiana University Press, Bloomington, 1994, p.46.
Legisign
(3) = “a sign which would lose the character which renders it a sign if there
were no interpretant”
Sinsign (2) = “A sinsign may be
index or icon. As index it is ‘a sign
which would , at once, lose the character which makes it a sign if its object
were removed, but would not lose that character if there were no interpretant.”
Qualisign (1) = “It can be only an
icon.”
The “quark model of Peircean signs”: Just as baryons consist of three quarks of which there are 6 different kinds (denoted as u, d, s, c, t, and b), so Peircean composite signs consist of three elementary signs (of which there are 9). In other words, Peircean elementary signs are to his composite signs what what quarks are to baryons in the Standard Model of high-energy physics. The Peircean composite signs can be represented as Sijk, where i, j and k denotes representamen (also called sign, confusingly), object, and interpretant, respectively. The value of i can be any of the elements in the first row in Figure 1, that of j any elements in the second row, and that of k any elements of the their row, as long as the following rule is obeyed: i \< j \< k, the symbol \< indicating “less than or equal to” or “no greater than”.
|
Table 1. Some examples of Peirce’s composite signs. From CP2.254-263 1903 as cited by Wikipedia. For the detailed structures of the composite signs are given Figure 1. |
|||
|
Composite Signs |
Examples |
||
|
Class |
Label |
Name |
|
|
1 |
S111 |
Rhematic iconic qualisign |
A feeling of “red” |
|
2 |
S112 |
Rhematic iconic sinsign |
An individual diagram |
|
3 |
S122 |
Rhematic indexical sinsign |
A spontaneous cry |
|
4 |
S222 |
Dicent indexical sinsign |
A weathercock or photograph |
|
5 |
S113 |
Rhematic iconic legisign |
A diagram, apart from its factual individuality |
|
6 |
S123 |
Rhematic indexical legisign |
A demonstrative pronoun |
|
7 |
S223 |
Dicent indexical legisign |
A street cry (identifying the individual by tone , theme) |
|
8 |
S133 |
Rhematic symbolic legisign |
A common noun |
|
9 |
S233 |
Dicent symbolic legisign |
A proposition |
|
10 |
S333 |
Argument symbolic legisign |
A syllogism |
P: Everything implicitly bears this triplicity of Universal, Particular and Individual (UPI). A tree is a Universal concept that has its corresponding Particularities of kinds of trees, such as Oak, Poplar, Fir, and so on. The Individual trees that you encounter in the forest are instantiations of the unity of Universal and Particular in a Singular instance. Even the "I" or ego is a Universal (everyone calls themselves "I") a Particular (unique or peculiar identity) and Singular (an instantiated individual body).
S: According to the Peircean classification scheme (as I understand it), "A tree" as a Universal concept would be "rhematic symbolic legisign. "The individual trees" that we encounter are "rhematic indexical sinsign", etc.
P: Dr. Chopra's conception of consciousness is respectfully critiqued in my previous emails to this group. It seems to be lacking in firm philosophical reasoning, based more upon instinct, and influenced strongly by the entrenched dogmatics of a particular ancient school of thought in India. It does not compare with a more rigorous (one might say 'scientific') philosophical study of the subject of consciousness and self consciousness that has been developed in the West, especially in light of the modern period starting with Descartes, Kant and the German Idealists, especially Hegel, and those who have followed them to the present day. Extant knowledge on the subject of consciousness does not support what would be considered to be a naively abstract and indeterminate universality that fails to consider the particularity and individuality that accompanies the concept of consciousness.
S: It may be that all the philosophical (Descartes, Kant, Hegel included) or religious systems, East and West, of the past centuries and millenia may have to be updated taking into account of the 21 century knowledge of life and computing sciences.
P: The Bhakti Vedanta conception follows along the lines of the Hegelian philosophy of the Absolute or Spirit, which accords with the teachings of acintya bedha bedha tattva of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (the identity of identity and difference). If one tries to understand this one will fail (acintya) because it involves contradiction that stymies the fixity of thought that characterizes understanding. The only way to comprehend it is through a fluidized thinking that grasps the dynamic movement of thought that characterizes living self-conscious reality.
P: The Bhakti Vedanta conception follows along the lines of the Hegelian philosophy of the Absolute or Spirit, which accords with the teachings of acintya bedha bedha tattva of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (the identity of identity and difference). If one tries to understand this one will fail (acintya) because it involves contradiction that stymies the fixity of thought that characterizes understanding. The only way to comprehend it is through a fluidized thinking that grasps the dynamic movement of thought that characterizes living self-conscious reality.
S: I like the Hegelian philosophy of the Absolute, since it is consistent with the biology-derived philosophical framework called complementarism [2] schematized below.
Reproduced from [2].
P: Thus to answer your question, it seems your way of conceiving triplicity lacks an explicated rational basis so you are left with contingently combining whatever three terms you deem appropriate without recognizing the necessary logical development or relation articulated between them.
S: I respectively disagree. My triplicity is logically tight being based on both the principle of complementarity and the empircal facts supporting the universality of the Planckian Distribution Equation that embodies the wave-particle duality [3].
P: You specify the object, the representation within a subject (sign), and the individual person (self-consciousness) as the signifier or interpreter of the representation.
S: This sentence is confusing and may be mis-understanding what I mean (which is shown below). This is why it may be necessary to utilize diagrams along with words whenever possible to clearly indincate what you mean with words. Words alone may be incapable of telling the truth, but when combined with visual representations, the truth may be revealed more accurately and more efficiently.
Your sentence has the following key words (i.e., nodes) but their relations (i.e., edges) are not clear:
1. object
2. representation within a subject
3. sign
4. self-consciousness
5. signifier
One possible relation among these words is indicated below based on the irreducible triadic relation (ITR) template.
f g
Object --------> Sign --------> Interpretant (2) ---|
(1) (3, 5) ^ |
(1) (3, 5) ^ |
| | | The whole diagram may represent (4).
| | |
| | |
|_________________________| |
h ---|
Figure A. The irreducible triadic relation among sign, obeject, and interpretant,
"interpretant" being the effect that the sign has on the mind of the interpreter.
P: Dr. Chopra limits his conception to consciousness, into which the representation or sign of an object is reflected. The interpreter is self-consciousness beyond the mere consciousness or passive reflector/awareness of objects. The Bhakti Vedanta conception is concerned with the triplicity of self conscious Reality in its Universal objectivity as its own self-manifestion to Itself as Otherness, Particular subjectivity as finite consciousness in its many forms, and Individual as the unitive return from Itself as Otherness to itself as Self-consciousness or Personality/God. This totality as a living whole including its self-movement and self-development is what is being called Reality in and for Itself.
S: I like this paragraph very much, because I can see important similarities between the Bhakti Vedanta conception and complementarism on the one hand and with the Peircean semiotics on the other.
With all the best.
Sung
References:
[1] Ji, S. (2017). The Cell Language Theory: Connecting Matter and Mind. Imperial College press, London (in press). Sections 6.6.1, 6.6.2, and 6.6.3.
[2] Ji, S. (1995). Complementarism: A Biology-Based Philosophical Framework to Integrate Western Science and Eastern Tao, in Psychotherapy East and West: Integration of Psychotherapies, Korean Academy of Psychotherapists, 178-23 Sungbuk-dong, Songbuk-ku, Seoul 136-020, Korea, pp. 517-548. PDF at http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Complementarism_1995_Proceedings2.pdf
[3] Ji, S. (2015). Planckian distributions in molecular machines, living cells, and brains: The wave-particle duality in biomedical sciences. In: Proceedings of the International Conference on Biology and Biomedical Engineering, Vienna, March 15-17, 2015. Pp. 115-137. PDF at
[3] Ji, S. (2015). Planckian distributions in molecular machines, living cells, and brains: The wave-particle duality in biomedical sciences. In: Proceedings of the International Conference on Biology and Biomedical Engineering, Vienna, March 15-17, 2015. Pp. 115-137. PDF at
On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 10:06 AM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Sungchul Ji,Pranams.The Piercian nomenclature of firstness, etc. has always seemed to me an infantile way of approaching philosophical science. A diachronic sequence has no real conceptual value , and we might add epistemologically or logically. As you have yourself have mentioned irreducible triplicity is synchronically intrinsic to the idea of reality. So the conceptually empty terms of Pierce can be replaced by their more meaningful concepts to bring greater clarity to thought. For whatever reason Pierce originally introduced those chronological terms he seems to have been ejected them himself in his later more important writings on semiotics.Philosophy in the West since Plato has always addressed the intrinsic triplicity of all concepts, not only reality, in the terms of Universal, Particular, Singular (or indivdiual). This is a more natural and rational way of explaining the intrinsic triplicity by which reason comprehends or conceives everything including itself.We use triplicity every time we concieve, for example, fruit as a Universal or genus, cherries, as a Particular kind or species of fruit, and the instantiation of the species or Individual specimen that is popped into the mouth when eaten.Everything implicitly bears this triplicity of Universal, Particular and Individual (UPI). A tree is a Universal concept that has its corresponding Particularities of kinds of trees, such as Oak, Poplar, Fir, and so on. The Individual trees that you encounter in the forest are instantiations of the unity of Universal and Particular in a Singular instance. Even the "I" or ego is a Universal (everyone calls themselves "I") a Particular (unique or peculiar identity) and Singular (an instantiated individual body).Dr. Chopra's conception of consciousness is respectfully critiqued in my previous emails to this group. It seems to be lacking in firm philosophical reasoning, based more upon instinct, and influenced strongly by the entrenched dogmatics of a particular ancient school of thought in India. It does not compare with a more rigorous (one might say 'scientific') philosophical study of the subject of consciousness and self consciousness that has been developed in the West, especially in light of the modern period starting with Descartes, Kant and the German Idealists, especially Hegel, and those who have followed them to the present day. Extant knowledge on the subject of consciousness does not support what would be considered to be a naively abstract and indeterminate universality that fails to consider the particularity and individuality that accompanies the concept of consciousness.The Bhakti Vedanta conception follows along the lines of the Hegelian philosophy of the Absolute or Spirit, which accords with the teachings of acintya bedha bedha tattva of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (the identity of identity and difference). If one tries to understand this one will fail (acintya) because it involves contradiction that stymies the fixity of thought that characterizes understanding. The only way to comprehend it is through a fluidized thinking that grasps the dynamic movement of thought that characterizes living self-conscious reality.Thus to answer your question, it seems your way of conceiving triplicity lacks an explicated rational basis so you are left with contingently combining whatever three terms you deem appropriate without recognizing the necessary logical development or relation articulated between them. You specify the object, the representation within a subject (sign), and the individual person (self-consciousness) as the signifier or interpreter of the representation. Dr. Chopra limits his conception to consciousness, into which the representation or sign of an object is reflected. The interpreter is self-consciousness beyond the mere consciousness or passive reflector/awareness of objects. The Bhakti Vedanta conception is concerned with the triplicity of self conscious Reality in its Universal objectivity as its own self-manifestion to Itself as Otherness, Particular subjectivity as finite consciousness in its many forms, and Individual as the unitive return from Itself as Otherness to itself as Self-consciousness or Personality/God. This totality as a living whole including its self-movement and self-development is what is being called Reality in and for Itself.Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.http://bviscs.org
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Muralidhar K C
Jan 9, 2017, 6:53:23 AM1/9/17
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To
Sri. Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D
Ji,
Thank you. I agree with most of your observations except on one count- the observed tendency of labelling Bhakti Yoga as the 'all-inclusive' mode of realization.
The supposed superiority of Bhakti Yoga lies in the attainment or realization of its central or core doctrine, Saranagati. Indescribable though it may be, it wafts through the faith characterized by pure love or, the love characterized by pure faith; anything less of it, the path remains a simple doctrine and competes on par with other doctrines of relevance. The ground reality is that very few seek to understand it the way it has been while the true practitioners remain invariably silent. There the inevitable tug of war begins (Dvaita vs. Advaita) in which the one in the ascendency tends to claim superiority over the others- unmindful of indispensable inter-dependency involved.
Sri. Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D
Ji,
Thank you. I agree with most of your observations except on one count- the observed tendency of labelling Bhakti Yoga as the 'all-inclusive' mode of realization.
The supposed superiority of Bhakti Yoga lies in the attainment or realization of its central or core doctrine, Saranagati. Indescribable though it may be, it wafts through the faith characterized by pure love or, the love characterized by pure faith; anything less of it, the path remains a simple doctrine and competes on par with other doctrines of relevance. The ground reality is that very few seek to understand it the way it has been while the true practitioners remain invariably silent. There the inevitable tug of war begins (Dvaita vs. Advaita) in which the one in the ascendency tends to claim superiority over the others- unmindful of indispensable inter-dependency involved.
The oft repeated truth is that the essence of Vedas has always been impartial to different paths of realization; none is condemned at the expense of the other. Whether the doctrine of Maya of Advaita or, whether the Dhyana of Raja Yoga or, whether the theory of Kamya / Nishkama karma of Karma Yoga, each has its significance incomparable to the other; each remains conducive to different but coexisting dimensions of human nature (Prema- love, Gnana- knowledge, Karma- action and Vignana) and yet complements one another in the journey of realizing one’s own nature; in essence, the neutrality espoused by Karma Yoga, the negation of Gnana Yoga and the affirmation of Bhakti Yoga blend seamlessly into Samadhi of Raja Yoga. Evidently irrespective of paths chosen it remains a question of Shraddha rather than any doctrinal supremacy.
I find modern science to be the inevitable emergent necessitated by the changing conditions of existence. I reckon it provides the missed out fifth dimension of human nature, the approach of which begins from the opposite direction- matter-centric as opposed to mind centric. The stimulating challenge in the form of modern science is not at all a threat but transforming one transcending which one gets to witness the eventual dimension of human nature. In fact the minor role of modern science in the context of Vedic revelations is to goad one towards cleaning up all the cobwebs of ignorance accumulated for thousands of years owing to the self-created stagnancy in the process. The ball is in our court for sure.
I find modern science to be the inevitable emergent necessitated by the changing conditions of existence. I reckon it provides the missed out fifth dimension of human nature, the approach of which begins from the opposite direction- matter-centric as opposed to mind centric. The stimulating challenge in the form of modern science is not at all a threat but transforming one transcending which one gets to witness the eventual dimension of human nature. In fact the minor role of modern science in the context of Vedic revelations is to goad one towards cleaning up all the cobwebs of ignorance accumulated for thousands of years owing to the self-created stagnancy in the process. The ball is in our court for sure.
Sincerely,
On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Muralidhar K C <personal...@gmail.com<mailto:personaltouchkcm@gmail.com>> wrote:
To: Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Namaste.
"The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
The reality we conceptualize stems from living- the experience of which cannot be a construct, obviously; at the same time the over-dependence on dogmas does seem to contradict the very essence of Vedas; it appears as though only science does all the good work of keeping things in a proper perspective.
History (whether posited or learnt or experienced), confined as contents of memory within, when engaged intellectually in the present, either galvanizes or immobilizes our train of thoughts or activities depending on the degree of responses from within; obviously our responses are not independent- there are scores of factors that influence our responses; it means that unless the genuineness of our responses are verifiable by some authentic means its validity may remain doubtful; in other words, the very process of verification needs to be validated first.
May be the validity is characterized by distinct demonstration- at every stage of its manifestation.
Regardless of what constitutes history of religious truth or even scientific facts, it is the quality of respective responses to the significant events of history that decides the progress of mankind; there, it is the complex nature of man that assumes more importance than any underlying truth in history or science. Consequently, in search of answers for any metaphysical or ontological query it is more reasonable to find ways of exploring man first; may be it should be as a whole by appropriate means than by limiting the investigation only to what humans or other species are found to be physically or biologically constituted of.
On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 3:12 AM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
Reality Has Its Own Purpose In and For Itself
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
December 30, 2016
In a recent article by Deepak Chopra, MD, “Can We Evolve Beyond Evolution? We Have To” [1] it was mentioned that
“-- The reality we accept is a human construct.”
“-- We should see ourselves as conscious creators who imbue reality with our own purposes.”
While many people think this way there are also those who believe reality is fixed in stone beyond whatever they may think of it. To some extent both are right. We do have the freedom to interpret what we experience, and mind does play a role in determining what the senses observe. At the same time reality doesn’t just disappear when we do not perceive it. Our house is still there when we go to work for several hours. For instance, it could burn down when we are not there. So it is not all a human construct, and as for purposes they also are not solely created by us.
A more satisfactory conception would be one that includes and harmonizes both the idealism of a mind or consciousness based creation of reality, and the realism of the inherent purposefulness of an already existing reality of which we are part and parcel.
The reality people experience is a human construct insofar as it is limited to sensuous perception of the phenomenal world of appearance, as well as the circumscribed judgments of finite understanding. However, this does not reach to the noumenal Reality in and for itself beyond or behind its apparent or phenomenal surface. In India the mayavad philosophy of Brahman Satyam, Jagat Mithyä claims that Reality is purely a product of human misconception and only Brahman as mere impersonal consciousness (an oxymoron since consciousness is the essence of personality) is the absolute reality or truth. This philosophy, also called kevaladvaita, however, does not provide an alternative to material reductionism but merely an alternative reductionism. Instead of reducing everything to matter it proposes to reduce everything to impersonal consciousness. In fact, what is needed is an alternative way of thinking that is not based solely on the judgments of a finite ego that is found, for instance, in the abstract thinking of Kantian philosophy in the West as well as in the kevaladvaita interpretations of Shankaracharya in the East.
To continue reading the entire article
Click here to Download<http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/?download=Reality-Has-Its-Own-Purpose-In-and-For-Itself.pdf>
Good wishes for a peaceful and harmonious New Year of selfless service,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
http://bviscs.org/
Please visit us on Facebook<http://facebook.com/bviscs>
________________________________
From: Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com<mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
For anyone interested
Happy holidays
http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php
[http://www.sfgate.com/img/pages/article/opengraph_default.png]<http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php>
Can We Evolve Beyond Evolution? We Have To<http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php>
www.sfgate.com<http://www.sfgate.com>
At the very moment when our planet is well into an ecological crisis, human beings need to evolve with the conscious purpose of setting aside our selfish impulses and start acting for the survival of all living things. The standard Darwinian position, which is universally taught in biology classes, is entirely mechanical and without purpose. [...] it is extremely difficult to form a set of beliefs that is evolutionary and purposeful at the same time. In a recent piece in the New York Times titled Can Evolution Have a 'Higher Purpose'? the author, Robert Wright, attempts to square the circle with the following statement: Evolution can have a purpose even if it is a wholly mechanical, material process — that is, even if its sole engine is natural selection. The real problem is that human purposes are at odds with each other, as witness the self-serving arguments of climate change deniers who are ushering in a post-fact, post-reality view of the world. [...] it constitutes the mainstream of human thought until
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From: 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>>
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Prashant Das
Jan 9, 2017, 6:53:23 AM1/9/17
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Deepakji,
The reality we accept is a human construct.
To me, the most important part of this statement is "we accept".
Aum
Das,
Prashant
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Serge Patlavskiy
Jan 11, 2017, 9:18:01 AM1/11/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
-
Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In the current version of your theory, Phenomenal Reality is a model,
>but is it not true that for an agent to construct a model, the agent first
>must EXPERIENCE something that motivates modeling ? In other
>words, I believe that it is impossible to model anything without the
>sign referring to something one is motivated to model.
[S.P.] The organism's consciousness starts the process of modeling (starts creating the model of Noumenal Reality) yet on the stage of fetus. The flywheel of organism's cognitive activity continues after birth and lasts up to organism's death. So, the question of "first experience" is not actual. Any element of experience is a certain model -- the element of the given organism's version of Phenomenal Reality.
As to "motivation of modeling", or why we pay attention to this fact but not to that fact, it is a question of the goal of life of the concrete organism. If the pupil expects to become a doctor, he/she pays more attention to Biology and Chemistry than to Mathematics or History.
Best,
Serge Patlavskiy
con...@howgravityworks.org
Jan 11, 2017, 9:18:01 AM1/11/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
My apologies if I have offended anyone. It's just sometimes I think that I am really tired of everything.
(Especially the recent US election.)
Thank you again.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Mon, January 09, 2017 6:25 am
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com"
<Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Thank you, Eric for your intelligent if brutal honesty.Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
From: "con...@howgravityworks.org" <con...@howgravityworks.org>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
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Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
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John Wilson Forje
Jan 11, 2017, 9:23:34 PM1/11/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Hello
My best regards and wishes for the New Year. Stay well, strong and blessed
Best regards
Yours
John Forje
On 1/8/17, Edelmann,Jonathan <jonathan...@ufl.edu> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Thanks for the stimulating discussion!
>
> That reality is “constructed” vs. “mind-independent” was discussed in
> considerably greater detail, with specific attention to Indian concepts such
> as karma, pramāṇa, prakṛti, etc. in the sophisticated debates between
> Yogācāra / Vijñānavāda Buddhists (who presented a “constructed” view) and
> Prācīna-Nyāya (who presented a “realist” view). I think it would be helpful,
> given the nature of this list, to examine those arguments. Bimal Krishna
> Matilal’s _Perception_ was an attempt to map out some of the arguments.
>
> I think it is important to distinguish between aspects of reality, some of
> which might be constructed and others given, ask questions about the nature
> of the agent who is or is not able to “construct,” and the importance of the
> fundamentally intersubjective nature of reality (this was something Yogācāra
> had to contend with).
>
> It might also be worth noting that I.Kant’s _Critique of Pure Reason_ was in
> many ways a defense of a position that found a middle ground between a
> “constructed” view and a “realist” view.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jonathan Edelmann
>
>
>
> Jonathan Edelmann<https://florida.academia.edu/JonathanEdelmann>, Assistant
> [http://kimberlysnyder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Radical-Beauty-Book-Cover-1.png]<http://www.radicalbeauty.com/>
> <personal...@gmail.com<mailto:personal...@gmail.com><mailto:personal...@gmail.com>>
> <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
> <nonlo...@chopra.com<mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com><mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com>>
> To:
> "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>"
> <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
> <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
> <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
> http://scienceandscientist<http://scienceandscientist/>.
> Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com>.
> Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com>.
> Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sa...@googlegroups.com>.
My best regards and wishes for the New Year. Stay well, strong and blessed
Best regards
Yours
John Forje
On 1/8/17, Edelmann,Jonathan <jonathan...@ufl.edu> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Thanks for the stimulating discussion!
>
> That reality is “constructed” vs. “mind-independent” was discussed in
> considerably greater detail, with specific attention to Indian concepts such
> as karma, pramāṇa, prakṛti, etc. in the sophisticated debates between
> Yogācāra / Vijñānavāda Buddhists (who presented a “constructed” view) and
> Prācīna-Nyāya (who presented a “realist” view). I think it would be helpful,
> given the nature of this list, to examine those arguments. Bimal Krishna
> Matilal’s _Perception_ was an attempt to map out some of the arguments.
>
> I think it is important to distinguish between aspects of reality, some of
> which might be constructed and others given, ask questions about the nature
> of the agent who is or is not able to “construct,” and the importance of the
> fundamentally intersubjective nature of reality (this was something Yogācāra
> had to contend with).
>
> It might also be worth noting that I.Kant’s _Critique of Pure Reason_ was in
> many ways a defense of a position that found a middle ground between a
> “constructed” view and a “realist” view.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jonathan Edelmann
>
>
>
> Professor
> University of Florida, Department of Religion
> Anderson Hall, Room 106
> Phone: (352) 273-2932
>
> Center for the Study of Hindu Traditions<https://chitra.clas.ufl.edu/>
> University of Florida, Department of Religion
> Anderson Hall, Room 106
> Phone: (352) 273-2932
>
> Section Editor for “Hindu Theology,” International Journal of Hindu Studies
>
> On Jan 7, 2017, at 6:53 AM, Deepak Chopra
>
> On Jan 7, 2017, at 6:53 AM, Deepak Chopra
> <nonlo...@chopra.com<mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com>> wrote:
>
> How about the following :
> Perceived Reality is the differentiation of Knower Knowing and Known in
> awareness ( consciousness being )
> It is born and labeled and dies in every moment of experience.
> Objects are space time events in consciousness.
> Facts are modes of knowing
> Perceived Reality is different in different states of consciousness.
> Fundamental Reality is timeless is never born and not subject to death .
> Puri ji correctly states that atoms and particles are born in the minds of
> theoretical physicists. Their given names are human constructs for modes of
> experience
> They are useful models of reality but not reality itself .
>
> Deepak Chopra
>
> 2013 Costa Del Mar Road
> Carlsbad, CA 92013
>
> New Book: Radicalbeauty.com<http://radicalbeauty.com/>
>
> How about the following :
> Perceived Reality is the differentiation of Knower Knowing and Known in
> awareness ( consciousness being )
> It is born and labeled and dies in every moment of experience.
> Objects are space time events in consciousness.
> Facts are modes of knowing
> Perceived Reality is different in different states of consciousness.
> Fundamental Reality is timeless is never born and not subject to death .
> Puri ji correctly states that atoms and particles are born in the minds of
> theoretical physicists. Their given names are human constructs for modes of
> experience
> They are useful models of reality but not reality itself .
>
> Deepak Chopra
>
> 2013 Costa Del Mar Road
> Carlsbad, CA 92013
>
> [http://kimberlysnyder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Radical-Beauty-Book-Cover-1.png]<http://www.radicalbeauty.com/>
>
>
>
> On Jan 5, 2017, at 5:10 AM, Sungchul Ji
>
>
> On Jan 5, 2017, at 5:10 AM, Sungchul Ji
> To:
> "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>"
> <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 7:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
>
> For anyone interested
> Happy holidays
> http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php
> [http://www.sfgate.com/img/pages/article/opengraph_default.png]<http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php>
>
> Can We Evolve Beyond Evolution? We Have
> To<http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php>
> www.sfgate.com<http://www.sfgate.com/><http://www.sfgate.com<http://www.sfgate.com/>>
> Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
>
> For anyone interested
> Happy holidays
> http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php
> [http://www.sfgate.com/img/pages/article/opengraph_default.png]<http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php>
>
> Can We Evolve Beyond Evolution? We Have
> To<http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/chopra/article/Can-We-Evolve-Beyond-Evolution-We-Have-To-10818947.php>
> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 9:43:07 PM
> To:
> Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com><mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
> To:
> wrote:
> [Inline image]
>
> Text Without Context is a Pretext of knowledge.
>
> One of the greatest limitations of scientific
> thinking is the inability of scientists to
> understand the fallacy of context-free analysis.
>
> Christmas commemorates the incarnation of the
> Son of God. Taken out of context it becomes an
> orgy of consumer frenzy. Holy Days become Holidays.
>
> Sincere Wishes for a Blessed Christmas
>
> Bhakti Madhava Puri
> http://bviscs.org<http://bviscs.org/>
> Visit us on Facebook<http://facebook.com/bviscs>
> ________________________________
> To: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@
> googlegroups.com<http://googlegroups.com/><mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com>>
> [Inline image]
>
> Text Without Context is a Pretext of knowledge.
>
> One of the greatest limitations of scientific
> thinking is the inability of scientists to
> understand the fallacy of context-free analysis.
>
> Christmas commemorates the incarnation of the
> Son of God. Taken out of context it becomes an
> orgy of consumer frenzy. Holy Days become Holidays.
>
> Sincere Wishes for a Blessed Christmas
>
> Bhakti Madhava Puri
> http://bviscs.org<http://bviscs.org/>
> Visit us on Facebook<http://facebook.com/bviscs>
> ________________________________
> To: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@
> org/donate<http://scienceandscientist.org/donate>
>
> Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/
> 19420889.2016.1160191<http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191>
>
> Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.
> als.20160601.03<http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03>
>
> Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/
> 19420889.2015.1085138<http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138>
>
> Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist<http://scienceandscientist/>.
>
> Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/
> 19420889.2016.1160191<http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191>
>
> Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.
> als.20160601.03<http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03>
>
> Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/
> 19420889.2015.1085138<http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138>
>
> org/harmonizer<http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer>
>
> Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
> Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org<http://bviscs.org/>
>
> Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org<http://scsiscs.org/>
>
> Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist<http://scienceandscientist/>.
>
> Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
> Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org<http://bviscs.org/>
>
> Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org<http://scsiscs.org/>
>
> org/Darwin<http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin>
>
> Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/
> satsanga/about/#instructions<http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions>
>
> Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
>
> Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
> Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/
> satsanga/about/#instructions<http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions>
>
> Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
>
> Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
> Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
>
> Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
>
> Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
>
> Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
>
> Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------
> BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
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>
> Science and Scientist - 2016
> http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
>
> Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue:
> http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
>
> Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
>
> Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
>
> Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
>
> Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
>
> Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
> Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org<http://bviscs.org/>
>
> Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org<http://scsiscs.org/>
>
> Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
>
>
> Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org<http://scsiscs.org/>
>
> Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
>
> Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
>
> Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
> Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
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>
> Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
>
> Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
>
> Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
>
> Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------
> BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
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>
> Science and Scientist - 2016
> http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
>
> Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue:
> http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
>
> Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
>
> Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
>
> Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
>
> Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
>
> Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
> Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org<http://bviscs.org/>
>
> Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org<http://scsiscs.org/>
>
> Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
>
>
> Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org<http://scsiscs.org/>
>
> Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
>
> Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
>
> Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>
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Prof. Brian J Ford
Jan 11, 2017, 9:23:34 PM1/11/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, fis
The extraordinary hyperbole surrounding theoretical
physics and cosmology is disproportionate in comparison with sciences with which
people should be familiar; I have addressed this in a shortly published article
(attached, and in confidence).
There are strong resonances with the mythical world
of Jonathan Swift in all this.
On the safety of nuclear explosions, although the
atomic bomb's capacity for destruction was less than some had predicted, bear in
mind (as I have discussed in a recent book) that the Little Boy bomb dropped on
Hiroshima contained 59 kg U235, of which only 600 mg was released as thermal
energy. Had it all been converted, as some were anticipating, it would have been
100,000 times as powerful.
Best wishes
Brian J Ford
Cambridge UK
Whit Blauvelt
Jan 11, 2017, 9:23:36 PM1/11/17
to 'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.
Hi,
Some background questions on "the false ego":
First, is it right to assume that in the model of reality being discussed
here it is to be accepted that there is no possibility of a "true ego"? So
the assumption is that any "ego" (any "I" if we're to use English rather
than German) is false? If that's the case, isn't saying "false ego"
redundant?
Second, some stories can be more false, more inaccurate, more untrue than
others. Likewise, if we are to compare false egos, might it be that one
instance is more false than another? There tends to be an assumption that if
the ego is false at all we should aspire to be simply without it -- although
that's a rare attainment. But, as long as we have an ego, would it be a
productive concern to strive to have one that, although false to some
degree, is _less_ false -- a truer, if not ultimately true, ego?
Third, and related, even if the goal is to have no ego, is the best way to
that to make a sudden leap, or is the more viable path that of honing the
ego to become truer and truer until finally it fades away?
Regards,
Whit
Some background questions on "the false ego":
First, is it right to assume that in the model of reality being discussed
here it is to be accepted that there is no possibility of a "true ego"? So
the assumption is that any "ego" (any "I" if we're to use English rather
than German) is false? If that's the case, isn't saying "false ego"
redundant?
Second, some stories can be more false, more inaccurate, more untrue than
others. Likewise, if we are to compare false egos, might it be that one
instance is more false than another? There tends to be an assumption that if
the ego is false at all we should aspire to be simply without it -- although
that's a rare attainment. But, as long as we have an ego, would it be a
productive concern to strive to have one that, although false to some
degree, is _less_ false -- a truer, if not ultimately true, ego?
Third, and related, even if the goal is to have no ego, is the best way to
that to make a sudden leap, or is the more viable path that of honing the
ego to become truer and truer until finally it fades away?
Regards,
Whit
BMP
Jan 12, 2017, 11:42:44 AM1/12/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
You seem to be reading far more of your own ideas into the messages on this forum than is justified. The philosophical discussions and explanations offered here are not concerned with and make no mention of the different forms of yoga or their comparison. That is a whole subject in and of itself, but we are concerned here with science and how it understands itself, what it's proper object of study is, and how the scientist (consciousness) is to be included in its scope.
The Vedanta-sutra, which is popularly known as Vedanta, gives valuable insight into the role and meaning of consciousness and the interpretation of Vedanta that we find most useful is what is called the Bhakti Vedanta interpretation, also known as the Bhagavat conception.
All perspectives of the Truth are simply that - finite perspectives. A depiction of that idea was presented in an image posted to this group you may remember. Each perspective is true from the perceiver's point of view but the Absolute Truth accommodates all of them even in the case of contradictory perspectives. The lesson to be learned is that there is a difference between the individual finite perspective and the all accommodating Absolute Truth and how to realize that.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2017 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
(Firstness) ( Secondness) (Thirdness)
<Object> <Sign> <Interpretant>
| ^
| |
| |
| | |
|_____ ______________________________ ________________|
h
Figure 1. The postulate that Reality is irreducibly triadic, i.e., Reality has three irreducible aspects, each belonging to the ontological categories of Firstness (e.g., qualitiy, potentiality), Secondness (e.g., facts, actuality), or Thirdness (e.g., habit, regularity, abstraction), respectively. "Interpretant" = the effect that the sign has on the mind of the interpreter. f = natural process, g = mental process, and h = correspondence, grounding, or information flow.
The Chopra statement above seems to emphasize the Thirdness aspect (and Process g) of Reality while the Puri statement emphasizes the Secondness aspect (and Process f). Thus both these statements are correct but only partially. A complete statement may require combining both these statements AND some objective evidence corresponding to Process h, thereby conserving the irreducible triadic relation (ITR) of Peirce or the property of a category in mathematics [1].
Any questions or comments would be welcome.
Sung
Reference:
[1] Ji, S. (2017). The Cell Language Theory: Connecting Matter and Mind. Imperial College Press, London (in press). Chapter 9.
On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Muralidhar K C <personal...@gmail.com<ma ilto:personaltouchkcm@gmail. com>> wrote:
To: Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Namaste.
"The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
The reality we conceptualize stems from living- the experience of which cannot be a construct, obviously; at the same time the over-dependence on dogmas does seem to contradict the very essence of Vedas; it appears as though only science does all the good work of keeping things in a proper perspective.
History (whether posited or learnt or experienced), confined as contents of memory within, when engaged intellectually in the present, either galvanizes or immobilizes our train of thoughts or activities depending on the degree of responses from within; obviously our responses are not independent- there are scores of factors that influence our responses; it means that unless the genuineness of our responses are verifiable by some authentic means its validity may remain doubtful; in other words, the very process of verification needs to be validated first.
May be the validity is characterized by distinct demonstration- at every stage of its manifestation.
Regardless of what constitutes history of religious truth or even scientific facts, it is the quality of respective responses to the significant events of history that decides the progress of mankind; there, it is the complex nature of man that assumes more importance than any underlying truth in history or science. Consequently, in search of answers for any metaphysical or ontological query it is more reasonable to find ways of exploring man first; may be it should be as a whole by appropriate means than by limiting the investigation only to what humans or other species are found to be physically or biologically constituted of.
Chopra Center for Wellbeing<http://www.chopra. com/><http://chopra.com/><http ://chopra.com/>
This post originally published at: https://www.facebook.com/ bviscs/photos/a. 283565131663203.77513. 278907435462306/ 1399432143409824/?type=3& theater<https://www.facebook. com/bviscs/photos/a. 283565131663203.77513. 278907435462306/ 1399432143409824/?type=3& theater>
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Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy
Rutgers University
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BMP
Jan 12, 2017, 11:42:44 AM1/12/17
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Dear Sungchul Ji
Namaste.
Thank you for your interesting comments and questions.
S: I believe we need both diachronicity and synchronicity, as in linguistic studies. For example, for a complete understanding of the meaning of a word, it is necessary to understand both the diachronic aspect (or the origin) of the word and its synchornic aspect (i.e., the current usage regardless of its origin).
P: Not sure what you mean by the "origin of a word." Is this its etymological or ontological origin?
Another implication of Peirce's terminology of firstness, etc. is that these terms indicate something more than themselves, i.e. their connection with other terms besides themselves. This was a very significant point for Peirce, as will be explained. The word "firstness" bears the inherent implication that something will follow. What is 'first' unerringly indicates that we are at the beginning of something that lies beyond or further than the start.
The sense of 'secondness' also bears the irresistible implication that there is something other than itself that lies previous to it, viz. a firstness. So firstness and secondness mutually imply each other. This is what Peirce was trying to convey by using these terms, no so much their diachronicity but their synchronic mutual implicitness. The same is true for thirdness, which bears the irrepressible implication that both firstness and secondness are absolutely essential to its meaning, and that it could not exist as a thirdness without the prior two concepts. So it is the inter-implicatory nature of concepts that Peirce was wanting to express, and these words fit that purpose most easily and clearly.
Secondness was so important to Peirce because he wanted to confront the idealistically self-absorbed, (we see prominently exhibited on this list) who believe they can 'create their own reality" simply by thinking it. The finite self is a part of the whole. As a Part, there must be Other or the Whole. As a Self, there must be Other, or the not-self. This is the relation of firstness to secondness. Thridness is the encompassing universal unity or mediation of these two moments without loosing them or merging them into one. Thirdness includes firstness and secondness within itself but not as the annihilation of these two ideas. In other words, thirdness includes both self and other as their mediating third.
S: I did not know that Peirce "ejected" the chronological terms "himself in his later more important writings on semioitcs". Can you provide any reference regarding this point ?
P: That was only a conclusion from the observation that Peirce does not seem to mention these terms in his semiotics. But from the previous comments he must certainly use the implicatory principle mentioned above in formulating his semiotics.
S: Not all triplicities are irreducible. For example, the triad of DNA, RNA and phenotype...
P: This is a misunderstanding of the original message. No reference was made to ALL triplicities. UPI refers specifically to single Concepts. The triad of DNA, RNA, phenotyope is exactly the kind of triplicity that does NOT represent a the logical purity of a Concept with its triple UPI aspects. The mixture of empirical concepts with pure logical concepts creates only rational confusion. To understand and apply this requires careful philosophical understanding. The meaning of 'pure' in Kant's Critiques will bring out the proper significance of what is meant here.
S: please note that I am not a Hegelian philosopher nor even a professional philospher of any kind
P: This creates a major problem because the difference between pure and empirical thought is not so easily comprehended without acquaintance with someone who knows what they are talking about.
It is this kind of misunderstanding that creates a Tower of Babel (Babble) rather than progressive knowledge. Scientific systems of philosophy and religion are pure rational systems that are not simply placeholders for whatever conditioned opinions an individual may hold at any particular time.
The rest of what you have to say about UPI in Hegelian philosophy is unclear because you don't seem to distinguish empirical/sensuous concepts from pure concepts. The thought "universal" is a pure concept, but "trees" is an empirical or sensuous universal. A lot of what you write is valuable, but the rigors of proper philosophical thinking need to be learned in order for anyone to comprehend the Absolute as a rational system. It is not easy to learn or practice that in a forum such as this, but the sincere attempt to do so is appreciated.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
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Ognen Zafirovski
Jan 12, 2017, 11:44:19 AM1/12/17
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Hi there Whit. These are interesting questions.
The Vedantic concept afaik is that ego means identity and we cannot destroy the ego as we as spirit souls we must have some identity too. So the problem is the false ego or our false identifying with the body and this material world. Sure there is possibility of "true ego" and that is why the process is called self-realization. Actually we are sat-cit-ananda beings (eternal, full of bliss and knowledge) and need to take out all the dirty coverings from our pure spirit souls to come to the stage of pure existence or real ego or real identity. Have you ever questioned your self why there is never enough of anything in this world we always strive to achieve something more, there are people who own enormous amount of wealth, power, beauty and they are still not fully satisfied? When a person begins to question these things and to search for the real source of fulfillment it is said that the process of self-realization has begun. So the goal is not to have no ego as the mayavadi teachings of some schools, its not possible to be without identity its just that we have to come to our original constitutional position as pure spirit.
Please excuse me for my English.
Kind regards, Ognen.
The Vedantic concept afaik is that ego means identity and we cannot destroy the ego as we as spirit souls we must have some identity too. So the problem is the false ego or our false identifying with the body and this material world. Sure there is possibility of "true ego" and that is why the process is called self-realization. Actually we are sat-cit-ananda beings (eternal, full of bliss and knowledge) and need to take out all the dirty coverings from our pure spirit souls to come to the stage of pure existence or real ego or real identity. Have you ever questioned your self why there is never enough of anything in this world we always strive to achieve something more, there are people who own enormous amount of wealth, power, beauty and they are still not fully satisfied? When a person begins to question these things and to search for the real source of fulfillment it is said that the process of self-realization has begun. So the goal is not to have no ego as the mayavadi teachings of some schools, its not possible to be without identity its just that we have to come to our original constitutional position as pure spirit.
Please excuse me for my English.
Kind regards, Ognen.
Oliver Manuel
Jan 12, 2017, 11:44:22 AM1/12/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, fis, Professor Brian J. Ford
Dear Professor Ford,
I urge you to study this tribute and the 1992 autobiography of the late Professor Paul Kazuo Kuroda, the first scientist sent from the Imperial University of Tokyo to examine Hiroshima's ruins in Aug 1945:
Then you may understand why theoretical physics and cosmology were destroyed by frightened world leaders after WWII trying to save themselves and the world from possible nuclear annihilation.
With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
PS - Please let me know if anyone is unable to "see" Weizsacker's logical error in using a sloping baseline (See sloping line across top of the right side of Figure 1) to calculate "nuclear binding energy."
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BMP
Jan 13, 2017, 1:36:12 AM1/13/17
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Hi Eric,
Pranams
Your acknowledgement of otherness (secondness as Peirce called it) is admirable. The opposing sides both feel frustration with each other. That is a good sign. When the Zen master slaps the meditating student, it is not to make sure he is awake but to make sure the student is not simply self absorbed and realizes his mediation is on what is real, the Other and the Self, which comes impertinently, unexpectedly, brutally, irrationally, violently, outlandishly, contingently - what Peirce called the “outward clash.”
The Vedic tradition also acknowledges the essential importance of this Otherness in coming to realization of the Truth. The Bhagavad-gita 4.34 brings this point to prominent attention when it describes the process of realization of Truth involves a disciple-guru relation, a distinct dyadic confrontation that requires complete alignment of siksha or student with the guru or teacher.
In terms of the synchronic triplicity of the UPI aspects of the Concept, or in the Peircean triplicity of firstness, etc. the alignment of the will of the individual (student) to the particularity of the truth (guru) to the universality of the Absolute Truth characterizes the realization (literally the Reality) of Absolute Truth.
In a contemporary example, Anderson Cooper (CNN reporter) in a recent interview with Kellyanne Conway (spokesperson for Trump) about fake news on CNN, found it necessary at one point to say to her, “What you think, and what is true are not necessarily the same thing” - as if anyone with sufficient intelligence would have to be told that. Yet we see that issue has become a prominent one for those who cannot distinguish between Reality and their own constructs or thoughts without reference to actual experience. Failure to recognize this difference would actually make all considerations of Truth pedantic (for truth is the identity of thought and being).
In the double split experiment observing a particle (photon) changes its self reflective being for itself into something that is being for another. i.e. objectivizes it into a positive thing consequently abrogating its self-relating identity. This changes its whole reality.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 6:06 AM
BMP
Jan 13, 2017, 1:36:19 AM1/13/17
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The Ego or "I" is associated with the identity of the atman in Vedic terms. As the differentiated atomic or infinitesimal aspect of the Atma (God) or Paramatma, it is eternal and never subject to destruction or dissolution.
As the subject of this email thread suggests in comparison with the false elephant metaphor, the false ego is a finitely constructed conception of self developed out of its ignorance of its relationship with the whole. The relation between self and not self, or part and whole must be comprehended from a third position that encompasses both without annihilating either (as explained in today's message to Sungchul Ji).
One can speak of degree of falsity in the sense that there is an evolution of consciousness, meaning one's comprehension of reality, that follows a developmental path. This is described in Vedic literature in terms of sheaths or coverings of the jivatma (which is the atma when it is ensconced in Maya or material or impersonal existence).
There is no question of the Ego passing away. We could ask "for whom" would the Ego vanish so that such a state could be realized?
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
From: Whit Blauvelt <wh...@csmind.com>
To: "'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
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David Marjanovic
Jan 13, 2017, 5:05:05 AM1/13/17
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> the Little Boy bomb dropped on Hiroshima contained 59 kg U235, of which only 600 mg was released as thermal energy. Had it all been converted, as some were anticipating
Are you serious? The only process known (then as now) that could convert 100 % of matter into other forms of energy is contact with the same amount of antimatter. Radioactive decay, including nuclear fission, simply doesn't do this, and that fact was well known and understood before the Manhattan Project even started. The mass that turns into heat comes entirely from the binding energies of neutrons and protons to each other, and (within those neutrons that decay into protons) those of up and down quarks to each other.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At the occasion of my first message to this group, may I ask all participants to keep their messages small? There is no need to copy the whole thread you're answering to into your message. E-mails to this group routinely have half a megabyte even when they don't have any attachments. I don't think I'm the only one whose inbox size is limited.
Dr. David Marjanović
Museum für Naturkunde, Berlin (Germany)
Rich Norman/Blair Neuman
Jan 13, 2017, 5:05:05 AM1/13/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, fis, bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk, con...@howgravityworks.org
Greetings friends and colleagues:
I have only now taken a look at the myriad of detailed correspondence. I have just finished writing a book with Jeremy Dunning-Davies on scientific hype and deception (linked below). Thank you for starting this topic, Dr. Ford. Your piece is correct by my estimation, and fits quite exactly with many statements in our new book. [Are you familiar with Bechamp?…that chalk sir! You may request a paper which makes tangible use of physics within cell biology. Those were stunning images in your paper.] There is a great deal of this rot in physics and cosmology. Before I begin a new thread concerning causality, I must add my sad approval to the exhausted refrain below, which did not offend me in any way. The situation in my broken country and the world inspires such painful honesty. I will put a link to a paper concerning gravitation which is in keeping, added below the following comment by Eric Sabo, and then a possible explanation.
“At CERN and Fermilab, no two collisions are exactly the same.
Their efforts are a waste of time as any particles they create only last nanoseconds and then they "evaporate".
The really odd thing is not one physicist at those facilities ever ask "Where did they evaporate to?"...
(The only logical answer is, back to the Aether.) It's just a jobs program for physicists.
What's really odd is they pat themselves on the backs and hand out Nobel Prizes for their efforts.
I see the real benefit of those projects is that it's all good magnet R&D...... (For future Antimatter Containment)
. . . .Residing in the urban environment give me the impression that the stupid people have propagated out of control.
And, every one of them has the right to exist..... and vote!....... (There's no hope for Humanity.)”
You sir, are right! https://www.researchgate.net/publication/310845151_Practical_and_theoretical_assessment_of_relativistic_theory_v_2?ev=prf_pub
I have just completed a book detailing a great deal of this kind of thing. A LONG book, gentlemen! Science hype, and deception. Just look at all that overstatement and deception. Have you read the papers debunking LIGO? Here is our new book Beyond the Veil: Deception, truth and the hidden promise of science.
Here is a new thought for you:
Does the second law of thermodynamics imply by necessity the social turbulence we see all around us? The answer is no, entropy increase itself does not imply social discord as a necessary consequence. Biological life is itself an expression of negative entropy, an exporting of entropy in order to sustain itself and its organized processes. The biology should by multiplicative extension increase negative entropy through numerical increase.
I will speculate to explain the effects witnessed: The effect we see, the social horror then, I will hypothesize is a function of the lack of emergent intelligence from the new larger system. Instead of a healthy intra-connected single human system, as analogously in the case of a mat of bacteria relating to its cohabited environment, the connection between the microorganisms fostering a cooperative intelligence to emerge which guides proliferation and development, a function terminated with interrupted intra-connectivity, our race is set against itself, the single system broken apart, our unconscious connectivity in my estimation has been shut off: we compete at every turn, and our mental topography has removed the inner means to support the healthy effect! I believe, the paper linked below contains the answer. To have altered the aspects in this document, has changed my ‘luck.’ My entire world seems effortless and on track. I believe, the loss of identifications with the world and our fellow humans is the cause of the discord. Theoretically, as a mat of bacteria, we should operate in cooperative mutual adjustment with the other organisms which share our environment…I hypothesize: but for this.
Thank you for all this new thinking. The recent email from John Kineman was simply excellent. I will begin a thread later on related topics.
Thank you,
Rich Norman
Journal of Unconscious Psychology
<CF26.pdf>
VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Jan 14, 2017, 4:14:48 AM1/14/17
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Respected Madhva Puriji Maharaj,
Pranama,On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:11 PM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Respected Vinod,Atomic or subatomic particles, electrons, quarks, and so on, all have empirically determinate properties. That means they are just as phenomenal as houses, trees and people. They may not be visible to the naked eye, but they or their effects become visible with the proper material instruments, just as an organic cell may be visible under a microscope. Thus they do not constitute what is considered a true noumenal ground (thing in itself) of phenomena.The fundamental particles of physics do not come from themselves but from the minds/theories of scientists. Consequently they are severely limited models of reality that do not correspond completely to the reality they are modeling. Scientists know quite well that the current theory of fundamental particles is inconsistent with gravity and large scale phenomena on the cosmic level. Disruptive singularities create dark energy and black holes in the fabric of the cosmos. That is why an attempt is being made to develop totally new theories that correct for these anomalies - such as string theory. But that has so far proven to be illusive - requiring double digit multidimensional parameters that are far beyond any intuitive grasp of the three dimensional world in which we build houses, bridges and so on.To add to the inadequacies of fundamental atomic theories is the quantum puzzle which holds the whole idea of "particle" in abeyance. Even three dimensional space is abandoned in the infinite dimensional Hilbert space of Quantum Mechanics (QM). This undermines you whole idea of objective particles existing in space without an observer to collapse the wave function before such particles can be detected. So when you say "Of course, our house does not vanish when we are away from the house." you are not being consistent with QM - at least not with that particular interpretation of it.An honest appraisal puts the whole idea of describing reality in terms of fundamental particles in jeopardy. Not only are the above mentioned problems unresolved but such atomic theories are not sufficient since they only provide the passive matter but not the efficient agency to move such matter in any way by which it could form an intelligible structure. Even if they are given a mysterious motive power of their own with their own forces, the random or chance encounters and combinations of such particles lack the ability to create anything of self sustaining endurance, what to speak of having a purpose or end by which it could justify its existence.What this means is that something like a house is not merely a configuration of atomic particles. It is a lot more than that. Even if you think a house is just a product of inert bricks, the bricks do have to be ordered/organized in a certain way to make it a house rather than a wall, or a bridge, or an archway, and so on. So a house is a lot more than just bricks. It is also an order or organisation, and that involves agents, intelligence, plans, and so on. Therefore, the reality of a house can never be considered just a heap of material units of any size, however small or large.But that is only the beginning of the problem of atomistic ontologies because the existence of minds, intelligence and consciousness are not even within the explanatory scope of discontinuous phenomena of insentient discreet units.
Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Respected Bhakti Madhava Puriji Maharaj,Pranama,Of course, our house does not vanish when we are away from the house. But what is a house? A house or that purpose any material object is an aggregation of the matter particles --atoms and molecules held together by forces in some specified configuration. Atoms and molecules of all the entities are further composed of more basic parts -- electrons and quarks. Though not yet known to Physicists, but in future, Physicists may discover one particle forming a common link in all the material objects.Therefore, any house of whatever shape, color, size it may be is nothing but an aggregation of electrons and quarks as manifesting from one common element. But our senses do not perceive the reality of the common element. It is due to our mental perceptual capability ( or one can say even limitations) that our consciousness perceives some phenomenal reality out of the aggregation of the common particle.When we are away from the house, reality of the common particles ( of electrons and quarks) persist but phenomenal reality of the house no longer persists ( due to absence of the mind and consciousness)When consciousness perceives any physical reality at its fundamental level ( electrons and quarks) thru the filters of mind and senses, that physical reality assumes the form of the phenomenal reality.So in the absence of mind, senses and consciousness, of course, the reality of the material objects may persist but not in the form of phenomenal reality as we perceive.Regards.Vinod Sehgal
On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 3:12 AM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Reality Has Its Own Purpose In and For ItselfBhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.Princeton Bhakti Vedanta InstituteDecember 30, 2016In a recent article by Deepak Chopra, MD, “Can We Evolve Beyond Evolution? We Have To” [1] it was mentioned that“-- The reality we accept is a human construct.”“-- We should see ourselves as conscious creators who imbue reality with our own purposes.”While many people think this way there are also those who believe reality is fixed in stone beyond whatever they may think of it. To some extent both are right. We do have the freedom to interpret what we experience, and mind does play a role in determining what the senses observe. At the same time reality doesn’t just disappear when we do not perceive it. Our house is still there when we go to work for several hours. For instance, it could burn down when we are not there. So it is not all a human construct, and as for purposes they also are not solely created by us.A more satisfactory conception would be one that includes and harmonizes both the idealism of a mind or consciousness based creation of reality, and the realism of the inherent purposefulness of an already existing reality of which we are part and parcel.The reality people experience is a human construct insofar as it is limited to sensuous perception of the phenomenal world of appearance, as well as the circumscribed judgments of finite understanding. However, this does not reach to the noumenal Reality in and for itself beyond or behind its apparent or phenomenal surface. In India the mayavad philosophy of Brahman Satyam, Jagat Mithyä claims that Reality is purely a product of human misconception and only Brahman as mere impersonal consciousness (an oxymoron since consciousness is the essence of personality) is the absolute reality or truth. This philosophy, also called kevaladvaita, however, does not provide an alternative to material reductionism but merely an alternative reductionism. Instead of reducing everything to matter it proposes to reduce everything to impersonal consciousness. In fact, what is needed is an alternative way of thinking that is not based solely on the judgments of a finite ego that is found, for instance, in the abstract thinking of Kantian philosophy in the West as well as in the kevaladvaita interpretations of Shankaracharya in the East.To continue reading the entire articleGood wishes for a peaceful and harmonious New Year of selfless service,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
rom: Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com>
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
For anyone interestedHappy holidays
From: 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 9:43:07 PM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Respected Vinod, my point was that this analytic (reductionist) mentality is being cultivated and validated by what is currently accepted as scientific thinking. This is an epistemological and ontological problem that needs to be addressed by scientists and educators in all fields as its widespread effects are shaping the personal, social, economic, and theological attitudes and conceptions of modern civilization.
There are two problems. First, making scientists who are blind to this problem aware that there is such a problem. Second, understanding how to correct it.
Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Celebration of most of the festivals of all the religions, be it Hinduism or Islama or Sikhsism, Deepawal, Dussehra, Eid, GuruPurab have become orgy of consumer frenzy without any context. Christmas being no exception.
Vinod Sehgal
On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 1:28 PM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com> wrote:
Text Without Context is a Pretext of knowledge.
One of the greatest limitations of scientificthinking is the inability of scientists tounderstand the fallacy of context-free analysis.
Christmas commemorates the incarnation of theSon of God. Taken out of context it becomes anorgy of consumer frenzy. Holy Days become Holidays.
Sincere Wishes for a Blessed Christmas
Bhakti Madhava Puri
To: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 1:10 PM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
The False Elephant and the False Ego
bySripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.(Serving Director, Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture and Science)This post originally published at: https://www.facebook.com/ bviscs/photos/a. 283565131663203.77513. 278907435462306/ 1399432143409824/?type=3& theaterWhen we look at the world through a microscope we see only cells and their internal moieties - we never see people, clouds, trees or elephants. Even the macromolecular vision of such separated entities does not show us the purpose or whole of that-for-which-each-exists. Such is the nature of the analytic thinking of finite cognition that we call modern science.
The blind men who could only feel the different limbs of an elephant they were blind to (ignorant of) concluded the legs were tree stumps, the side was a wall, the tusks were spears, the trunk a serpent, the ears a fan, and the tail a rope. Not knowing the unity of the whole they could not know the relation of each part to it. Without that knowledge they could not have a proper understanding of the parts in isolation from the whole. Even simple understanding of the function of each part in isolation could not reveal the relation of the functions to each other what to speak of their relation to the unity of the whole of which they had no clue.
Aristotle said there are four factors that had to be comprehended in explaining things: material, efficient, formal, and final (end or purpose). These four represent what a thing is made of (material), what modifies it (efficient), what plan/design guides its progressive modification (formal), the goal - what end the plan of action or modification aims for in order to cease when it is in conformity with the finished product (final end or purpose).
In reality it is the final end that determines and guides all the other factors. When the unity of the whole is sentient or self-conscious even a systems approach will not be sufficient to explain its existence. Systems are not self-conscious.
Without knowing the purpose for an individual's own self-conscious existence one has only a false conception of self, or false ego. One's true identity is established only when it is comprehended in relation to a proper concept of the Complete Whole as the all accommodating, all pervading, all unifying/attracting self conscious, self-knowing Absolute Truth Who is known by many Names.
--
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NYIKOS, PETER
Jan 14, 2017, 4:14:48 AM1/14/17
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Minor quibble: radioactive decay and nuclear fission are two different processes. Both change the nucleus, to be sure, but fission relies on the release of free neutrons, which does not happen with radioactive decay, and this release makes fission the key to both atom bombs and nuclear power plants.
I do approve heartily of cutting out earlier emails that are no longer needed to understand the one to which I am replying.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos/
________________________________________
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [online_sa...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of David Marjanovic [david.ma...@gmx.at]
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 11:04 AM
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Subject: [MaybeSpam]Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Jan 14, 2017, 4:14:57 AM1/14/17
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Dr. David Marjanovic,
1.0 Has it been possible ( as on date) to create antimatter for any matter and cause its annihilation by interaction with its matter for 100% conversion into energy?--
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Sungchul Ji
Jan 14, 2017, 5:50:28 PM1/14/17
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Hi Puri ji,
P: Not sure what you mean by the "origin of a word." Is this its etymological or ontological origin?
S: The etymological origin.
.
.
.
S: Please note that I am not a Hegelian philosopher nor even a professional philosopher of any kind.
P: This creates a major problem because the difference between pure and empirical thought is not so easily comprehended without acquaintance with someone who knows what they are talking about.
S: Do you think one has to read Hegel before he/her can understand the difference between pure and empirical thoughts ? Isn't it like stating that unless one reads Newton's Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy and Einstein's general relativity, he/her cannot really understand the difference between gravity and curved spacetime ? Or that, unless you become a baptized Christian, you cannot enter the Heaven ?
I must admit that I did not know the difference between 'pure' and 'empirical' thoughts until I read your comments (for which I am thankful), but I may have understood the same difference but expressed it in a different idiom such as visible vs. invisible (see Figure 1 of my previous post) and the concept of "transcendentality", one of the three logical elements of what I called complementarian logic (http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Complementarism_1995_Proceedings2.pdf).
With all the best.
Sung
On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 10:58 AM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dear Sungchul JiNamaste.Thank you for your interesting comments and questions.S: I believe we need both diachronicity and synchronicity, as in linguistic studies. For example, for a complete understanding of the meaning of a word, it is necessary to understand both the diachronic aspect (or the origin) of the word and its synchornic aspect (i.e., the current usage regardless of its origin).P: Not sure what you mean by the "origin of a word." Is this its etymological or ontological origin?Another implication of Peirce's terminology of firstness, etc. is that these terms indicate something more than themselves, i.e. their connection with other terms besides themselves. This was a very significant point for Peirce, as will be explained. The word "firstness" bears the inherent implication that something will follow. What is 'first' unerringly indicates that we are at the beginning of something that lies beyond or further than the start.The sense of 'secondness' also bears the irresistible implication that there is something other than itself that lies previous to it, viz. a firstness. So firstness and secondness mutually imply each other. This is what Peirce was trying to convey by using these terms, no so much their diachronicity but their synchronic mutual implicitness. The same is true for thirdness, which bears the irrepressible implication that both firstness and secondness are absolutely essential to its meaning, and that it could not exist as a thirdness without the prior two concepts. So it is the inter-implicatory nature of concepts that Peirce was wanting to express, and these words fit that purpose most easily and clearly.Secondness was so important to Peirce because he wanted to confront the idealistically self-absorbed, (we see prominently exhibited on this list) who believe they can 'create their own reality" simply by thinking it. The finite self is a part of the whole. As a Part, there must be Other or the Whole. As a Self, there must be Other, or the not-self. This is the relation of firstness to secondness. Thridness is the encompassing universal unity or mediation of these two moments without loosing them or merging them into one. Thirdness includes firstness and secondness within itself but not as the annihilation of these two ideas. In other words, thirdness includes both self and other as their mediating third.S: I did not know that Peirce "ejected" the chronological terms "himself in his later more important writings on semioitcs". Can you provide any reference regarding this point ?P: That was only a conclusion from the observation that Peirce does not seem to mention these terms in his semiotics. But from the previous comments he must certainly use the implicatory principle mentioned above in formulating his semiotics.S: Not all triplicities are irreducible. For example, the triad of DNA, RNA and phenotype...P: This is a misunderstanding of the original message. No reference was made to ALL triplicities. UPI refers specifically to single Concepts. The triad of DNA, RNA, phenotyope is exactly the kind of triplicity that does NOT represent a the logical purity of a Concept with its triple UPI aspects. The mixture of empirical concepts with pure logical concepts creates only rational confusion. To understand and apply this requires careful philosophical understanding. The meaning of 'pure' in Kant's Critiques will bring out the proper significance of what is meant here.S: please note that I am not a Hegelian philosopher nor even a professional philospher of any kindP: This creates a major problem because the difference between pure and empirical thought is not so easily comprehended without acquaintance with someone who knows what they are talking about.It is this kind of misunderstanding that creates a Tower of Babel (Babble) rather than progressive knowledge. Scientific systems of philosophy and religion are pure rational systems that are not simply placeholders for whatever conditioned opinions an individual may hold at any particular time.The rest of what you have to say about UPI in Hegelian philosophy is unclear because you don't seem to distinguish empirical/sensuous concepts from pure concepts. The thought "universal" is a pure concept, but "trees" is an empirical or sensuous universal. A lot of what you write is valuable, but the rigors of proper philosophical thinking need to be learned in order for anyone to comprehend the Absolute as a rational system. It is not easy to learn or practice that in a forum such as this, but the sincere attempt to do so is appreciated.Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
...
[Message clipped]
BMP
Jan 15, 2017, 8:51:19 AM1/15/17
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Dr. Brian Ford,
Namaste.
You wrote in your article "Fantastic Physics — and Worlds We Never See"
"When people observe tiny motors at work within cells, or gear wheels meshing together, they sometimes conclude that someone up there somewhere must have designed it. This is the height of hubris. Single cells have been evolving mechanisms that are still beyond human comprehension since life began."
Your very nice and informative article up to this point was about careful observation of Nature versus the scientific hype about what is not observed or dimly understood. Yet when you come to the point about the astonishing design that is found in nature, why is the natural inference of a divine rational source dismissed as hubris in favor of the hype of an 'evolving mechanism' based on random chance beyond human comprehension?
Nobel laureate, Werner Arber had no reservations writing:
"The most primitive cells may require at least several hundred different specific biological macromolecules. How such already quite complex structures may have come together, remains a mystery to me. The possibility of the existence of a Creator, of God, represents to me a satisfactory solution to this problem."
Wolfgang Pauli, of the famous Pauli principle in quantum theory, said that evolutionary theory is a “philosophy . . . going very far beyond that, which is empirically known. And nobody gives any explanation for the occurrences within a given time of any event, which is important in evolution (as for instance, that a reptile gets feathers).” He also said that chance is applied “to single events without connection with probability calculus, in a way that is entirely synonymous with ‘miracle’.”
If the evidence points to God, why is science so adamant about refusing to admit that. A science that includes God is not less scientific, except for the way scientists think about it. It does not mean that God has to be eliminated from science but that scientists have to learn how to think scientifically in terms of God.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
From: Prof. Brian J Ford <bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Cc: fis <f...@listas.unizar.es>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 10:42 AM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
BMP
Jan 15, 2017, 8:51:19 AM1/15/17
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Respected Vinod Seghal
Namaste.
You wrote:
"In Vedic tradition, there is no consensus amongst scholars on the ultimate base of the noumenal reality."
Reply;
Scholars are always arguing among one another because they think it is more prestigious to create their own ideas than to humbly understand what has been revealed for all times. In the material conception of life, the underlying principle or noumenal reality is considered to be matter - prakriti. Samkhya philosophy has explained the composition of prakriti in terms of the gunas (sattva raja tama), i.e. the dynamic movement of maintenance, creation, destruction. Thus the world is called jagad, or that which is always changing. There is birth, life for some time, then death (samsara) - the plane of mrityaloka where the destiny of all is death.
Veda teaches how to get free from such a material conception of life and develop the non-material or spiritual conception of sat-cit-ananda. That is the noumenal plane. The whole material conception of life is the phenomenal plane of appearing knowledge (avidya in the guise of vidya). Veda is vidya or real knowledge, real vision (the words 'video' or 'vision' are derived from vidya).
So what the Veda teach is summarized in Bhagavad-gita where we find Krishna stating:
15.15 vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham
The whole study of Veda is meant to know Me Who knows and originates Veda.
15.15 sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca
All knowledge of Me that is known within your heart is coming from Me.
10.8 Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
I am the origin of everything. [This is the actual theory of everything]
7.7 mayi sarvam idam protam sutre mani-gana iva
Everything rests upon Me just like pearls on a thread.
9.10 mayadhyaksena prakrtih
Material energy (prakriti) is one of My energies, controlled by Me.
14.7 brahmano hi pratisthaham
I am even the basis of Brahman.
Also in the Bhagavat Purana
1.1.1 janmady asya yatah
Everything is coming from Me.
2.9.33
aham evāsam evāgre
nānyad yat sad-asat param
paścād ahaṁ yad etac ca
yo 'vaśiṣyeta so 'smy aham
"Prior to the cosmic creation, only I exist, and no phenomena exist, either gross, subtle or primordial. After creation, only I exist in everything, and after annihilation, only I remain eternally
2.9.34
rte ‘rtham yat pratiyeta
na pratiyeta catmani
tad vidyad atmano mayam
yathabhaso yatha tamah
Whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality. Know it as My illusory energy, that reflection which appears to be in darkness.
Finally in Vedanta (Brahma-sutra):
janmady asya yatah
Brahman is the source of the creation and dissolution of the universe.
shastra-yonitvat
Veda is the source of knowledge of Brahaman
tat tu samanvayat
Complete understanding of Veda yields realization of Brahman.[see B-gita 15.15]
Without knowledge of Veda scientists and philosophers will be searching for eternity for what matter is, but will always come up empty handed because its noumenal basis is acintya, inconceivable - being the energy of a Divine Infinite source. It is meant to be frustrating, to teach those who refuse to surrender to Reality the Beautiful that they will face only a wild goose chase, as they say.
Science in the West was never a process of creating your own reality. It was always one of discovering the secrets of Nature that were already there. Science was originally developed by those of religious and philosophical nature who wanted to rationally and systematically know God and His glories. This is also true of the Vedic sciences. Unfortunately the modern scientific mentality has developed into one of create your own reality that has taken them far from the Reality that already and always exists right before them, of which only the proper understanding of what that Reality actually may be is missing. Thinking Reality to be matter(or a void or an impersonal slab) is an illusion that causes them to miss the Truth of a lively Nature and Spirit that lies behind the curtain of appearances.
The problem is that thinking has become reified in fixed categories. Abstract understanding has misconceived what is in fact living spirit as petrified dead things.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:08 AM
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
BMP
Jan 15, 2017, 8:51:19 AM1/15/17
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Respected Sunchul Ji
Pranams.
You wrote:
"Do you think one has to read Hegel before he/her can understand the difference between pure and empirical thoughts ? Isn't it like stating that unless one reads Newton's Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy and Einstein's general relativity, he/her cannot really understand the difference between gravity and curved spacetime ?"
Reply
Defintely yes. No one is born knowing what the curvature of space-time means without study of the abstract mathematics of Riemmanian geometry. The natural tendency is to conceive everything in terms of Euclidean tri-dimensional geometric space with time as an arithmetic axis. In Riemmanian space time does not have the liner arithmetic nature one normally conceives. In order to make it conform as a dimension equivalent to space it has to be distorted beyond recognition of anything we call time. The same is true of the Minkowski space of special relativity where the time dimension is taken to be ict, the product of an imaginary number i or the square root of minus 1, the speed of light c, and the time number.
Without reading this information how would anyone know this instinctively? The same is true of philosophy and religion. People generally think of religion as simply emotional beliefs and practices. They know nothing of the deliberation of thoughts on God that engaged the world's greatest philosophers for millennia. The ontological, cosmological, and teleological proofs of God in their separate and integral relation are generally unknown to the faithful and non-believers alike who have never studied nor read about them.
Hegel once quipped that everyone thinks that the only certification needed to speak especially about philosophy or religion is a birth certificate. However, these subjects along with science need to be studied carefully in order to know and understand them properly.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Hi Puri ji,
Oliver Manuel
Jan 15, 2017, 8:57:12 AM1/15/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
This is explained further here:
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2017/01/14/analyzing-information-in-the-age-of-disinformation-2/
On Saturday, January 14, 2017, Oliver Manuel <omat...@gmail.com> wrote:
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2017/01/14/analyzing-information-in-the-age-of-disinformation-2/
Oliver
On Saturday, January 14, 2017, Oliver Manuel <omat...@gmail.com> wrote:
1. Neutron repulsion in the core of the nucleus causes fission, Peter.2. The concept of "nuclear binding energy" is logically flawed and biased to yield deceptive high values of "nuclear binding energy" for neutron-rich nuclei, Kumar.This logical error in the definition of "nuclear binding energy" reversed the natural direction of nuclear evolution in the minds of most modern cosmologists:_ a.) From neutrons => H-atoms_ b.) To H-atoms => neutrons[<i>Please ask if you cannot "see" the error in Weizsacker's definition of "<b>nuclear binding energy</b>" after comparing the left and right sides of Figure 1</i>.]Oliver
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Sungchul Ji
Jan 16, 2017, 9:11:43 PM1/16/17
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Hi Puri ji, Ford ji, and list,
Can it be that Scientific and God-based explanations pertain to the complementary aspects of the Ultimate Reality ? If so, we may need both in order for us to survive (i.e., to avoid extinction).
All the best.
Sung
On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 8:49 AM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dr. Brian Ford,Namaste.You wrote in your article "Fantastic Physics — and Worlds We Never See""When people observe tiny motors at work within cells, or gear wheels meshing together, they sometimes conclude that someone up there somewhere must have designed it. This is the height of hubris. Single cells have been evolving mechanisms that are still beyond human comprehension since life began."Your very nice and informative article up to this point was about careful observation of Nature versus the scientific hype about what is not observed or dimly understood. Yet when you come to the point about the astonishing design that is found in nature, why is the natural inference of a divine rational source dismissed as hubris in favor of the hype of an 'evolving mechanism' based on random chance beyond human comprehension?Nobel laureate, Werner Arber had no reservations writing:"The most primitive cells may require at least several hundred different specific biological macromolecules. How such already quite complex structures may have come together, remains a mystery to me. The possibility of the existence of a Creator, of God, represents to me a satisfactory solution to this problem."Wolfgang Pauli, of the famous Pauli principle in quantum theory, said that evolutionary theory is a “philosophy . . . going very far beyond that, which is empirically known. And nobody gives any explanation for the occurrences within a given time of any event, which is important in evolution (as for instance, that a reptile gets feathers).” He also said that chance is applied “to single events without connection with probability calculus, in a way that is entirely synonymous with ‘miracle’.”If the evidence points to God, why is science so adamant about refusing to admit that. A science that includes God is not less scientific, except for the way scientists think about it. It does not mean that God has to be eliminated from science but that scientists have to learn how to think scientifically in terms of God.Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
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balaramkrishnadas .
Jan 16, 2017, 9:11:43 PM1/16/17
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Gentlemen...
Wouldn't Quantum Entanglement (spooky action)
studies will lead us to the next stage then?!
BK Das
On Jan 14, 2017 2:44 PM, "VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL" <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Vinod SehgalRegards.The quantum puzzle of the objective existence of sub-atomic particles makes me to think of either on either of the two lines. First, in the quantum world, there is no reality like "as particle" since any reality if it actually exists "as particle" can't have uncertainties like that of occupying many positions at the same time. So reality in the quantum world should be something else other than 'as particle" about which we are unaware of. A second scenario could be that in the quantum world, reality is in the form of particles but in the "deterministic" fashion and at the ground level. there is no inherent uncertainty. It is the observation and measurement which generate uncertainty in particles. I don't know as to which scenario is logically more correct? However, the concept of reality as particles in the quantum world and also having uncertainties seems to be logically incompatible.In Vedic tradition, there is no consensus amongst scholars on the ultimate base of the noumenal reality. Some metaphysics like Monistic Advaita Vedanta express the view that the noumenal base of the all the sentient and insentient beings, the observable and nonobservable universe is the all-pervading cosmic consciousness. However, some dualistic philosophies like Sankhya retain inert Prakriti as the noumenal base for all the observable and non-observable physicality of the universe. At the same time, such philosophies also retain cosmic consciousness as an ultimate noumenal base, a step transcendental to even Prakriti.What is phenomenal and noumenal are relative concepts.Thanks for elaborating and providing clarifications on my concept of a house as a configuration of sub-atomic particles when we are away from it and don't observe it. What I intended to convey and highlight that as we are away from the house and don't observe it, the phenomenal reality of the house, which makes its appearance due to our observations of mind and senses, no longer exist ( at least for us). This being based on the logical inference that phenomenal reality is created by our mind and senses from and out of some lower level of phenomenal reality ( like sub-atomic particles as you have stated) or some ultimate noumenal reality. In our absence, what is the reality of the house -- whether some configuration and arrangement of sub-atomic particles or strings which again is some phenomenal reality, as you have stated or something else are not known to us at least in the current scientific terms. But definitely behind every phenomenal reality, there should be some reality whether a lower level of phenomenal reality or noumenal reality since no phenomenal reality can arise out from vacuum or nothingness.Respected Madhva Puriji Maharaj,Pranama,
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Siegfried Bleher
Jan 16, 2017, 9:11:43 PM1/16/17
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Dear Professor Puri,
Maybe the “height of hubris” Dr. Ford refers to is in the implicit proscription to God a design method and intention patterned after the only exemplar comprehensible by humans—our own. As the existence of mechanisms in nature that still remain beyond human comprehension does not necessarily imply divine design, an increasing scientific uncovering of principles underlying natural phenomena does not preclude divine design. For example, as illuminating as is the discovery of self-organization in nature, it neither ‘explains’ the presence of life, nor does it exclude a divine design(er). That is, self-organization in nature, being an emergent phenomenon (arising as a natural outcome of the dynamics among perceptually separable components) seems at first glance to be a good first step towards an ‘explanatory model’ for how we see living things self-organize and self-maintain. But, unless we are prepared to claim that all things that self-organize are living (including algorithmically derived models like cellular automata), then we arrive at an impasse that our principle of self-organization still fails to account for an additional ‘something’ in living things. The impasse is not that self-organization is wrong as such, but that we are trying to force a toy model car--in our excitement from understanding the function of the toy wheel--to explain how a V12 Jaguar works. Or the nature of the elephant from experience with its tail…
Each major advance in science seems to have been preceded either by a serendipitous use of an instrument (physical or mathematical) for an unintended purpose, or a reassessment of basic assumptions. For example, the assumption that time can be defined and measured absolutely and independently of the spatial dimension gave us Newtonian physics, but had to be dropped to find consistency between Newtonian mechanics and Maxwell’s equations of electromagnetism. What assumption has to be dropped for us to find consistency between the physical laws that govern our externalized ‘objective’ lives, and those that govern our internal ‘subjective’ experience, science and spirituality?
An interesting effort, undertaken by David Bohm (and others), is to challenge the assumption of continuity that is made by all modern physics. The assumption of continuity is made when we associate the world of observation with Euclidean space (in Newtonian physics), or other metric spaces (in Special Relativity and General Relativity). This is tantamount to adding the (unobservable) irrational numbers to what is essentially a capacity to observe only rational numbers. It turns out the essential structure contained in Newtonian mechanics, as well as the Schrödinger equation, does not require continuity, only the discrete set of actual observations. What we gain by relaxing this single assumption is an algebraic methodology (cohomology theory) that may be general enough to apply to human (psychological) structures, as well as the world of external observations.
Another assumption that I believe quantum physics begs us to reexamine, is our usual notion of causality. Quantum entanglement appears to challenge the notion that two space-like-separated events can have nothing to do with each other. But how can even quantum theory account for the significance of something a stranger tells me today that appears to be a direct response to a thought I had (and had not spoken) a year ago? Maybe quantum theory is a pointer to something deeper still that is waiting a reassessment of some assumptions we are making about the nature of life, or of consciousness.
John Kineman’s post from Jan 8 reads, in part:
“I see the past as a defined existence, and therefore one set of selected or constructed possibilities. Every physical interaction did the selecting or constructing, not just living forms or humans. Thus it makes equal sense to define future as multiple superposed possibilities, as yet unselected by experience, i.e, yet to be or in the process of being experienced. It makes sense that consciousness would be directly associated with an act of reducing the possibilities to one, i.e. choosing or deciding. And this is inherently involving what we call future because it co-creates it, so future would be the full set of possible 'nows'.”
At least two sutras (IV.3, IV.12) from Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra seems to relate to John Kineman’s post:
IV.3 nimittam-aprayojakam prakrtinam varana-bhedas-tu tatah ksetrikavat (“The incidental-cause does not initiate the processes-of evolution, but [merely is responsible for] the singling-out of possibilities—like a farmer [who irrigates a field by selecting appropriate pathways for the water]” (translation by Georg Feuerstein, 1979)
IV. 12 atita-anagatam sva-rupato’sty-adhva-bhedad-dharmanam (“Past and future as such exist, because of the [visible] difference in the ‘paths’ of the forms [produced by Nature]”. (Feuerstein, 1979)
I don’t mean to suggest any new mathematics is capable of answering ‘why’ questions, only ‘how’ questions more inclusively. The ‘why’s’ are continually being presented to us.
Sincerely,
Siegfried
--
Sungchul Ji
Jan 16, 2017, 9:11:44 PM1/16/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Hi Puri ji,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
P: "No one is born knowing what the curvature of space-time means without study of the abstract mathematics of Riemmanian geometry."
S: I agree. But what I meant was that to understand the curvature of space-time, you do not need to read Einstein's original writings. You can get the same basic idea second-hand, e.g., from reading Scientific American or some other such literature. Similarly, to understand the difference between "pure" and "empirical thoughts", you don't need to read the original Hegel. You can get the same basic idea from reading Lao-tzu or probably some Hinduist and other writings as well.
P: "Hegel once quipped that everyone thinks that the only certification needed to speak especially about philosophy or religion is a birth certificate. However, these subjects along with science need to be studied carefully in order to know and understand them properly."
S: I agree with Hegel. I am sure Hegel was aware that there are many (or even an infinite number of) fingers that can point to the same moon of true philosophy and religion.
All the best.
Sung
On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 8:02 AM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Respected Sunchul JiPranams.You wrote:"Do you think one has to read Hegel before he/her can understand the difference between pure and empirical thoughts ? Isn't it like stating that unless one reads Newton's Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy and Einstein's general relativity, he/her cannot really understand the difference between gravity and curved spacetime ?"ReplyDefintely yes. No one is born knowing what the curvature of space-time means without study of the abstract mathematics of Riemmanian geometry. The natural tendency is to conceive everything in terms of Euclidean tri-dimensional geometric space with time as an arithmetic axis. In Riemmanian space time does not have the liner arithmetic nature one normally conceives. In order to make it conform as a dimension equivalent to space it has to be distorted beyond recognition of anything we call time. The same is true of the Minkowski space of special relativity where the time dimension is taken to be ict, the product of an imaginary number i or the square root of minus 1, the speed of light c, and the time number.Without reading this information how would anyone know this instinctively? The same is true of philosophy and religion. People generally think of religion as simply emotional beliefs and practices. They know nothing of the deliberation of thoughts on God that engaged the world's greatest philosophers for millennia. The ontological, cosmological, and teleological proofs of God in their separate and integral relation are generally unknown to the faithful and non-believers alike who have never studied nor read about them.Hegel once quipped that everyone thinks that the only certification needed to speak especially about philosophy or religion is a birth certificate. However, these subjects along with science need to be studied carefully in order to know and understand them properly.Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Hi Puri ji,P: Not sure what you mean by the "origin of a word." Is this its etymological or ontological origin?S: The etymological origin.
...S: Please note that I am not a Hegelian philosopher nor even a professional philosopher of any kind.P: This creates a major problem because the difference between pure and empirical thought is not so easily comprehended without acquaintance with someone who knows what they are talking about.S: Do you think one has to read Hegel before he/her can understand the difference between pure and empirical thoughts ? Isn't it like stating that unless one reads Newton's Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy and Einstein's general relativity, he/her cannot really understand the difference between gravity and curved spacetime ? Or that, unless you become a baptized Christian, you cannot enter the Heaven ?I must admit that I did not know the difference between 'pure' and 'empirical' thoughts until I read your comments (for which I am thankful), but I may have understood the same difference but expressed it in a different idiom such as visible vs. invisible (see Figure 1 of my previous post) and the concept of "transcendentality", one of the three logical elements of what I called complementarian logic (http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Complementarism_1995_Proceedings2.pdf).With all the best.Sung
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VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Jan 16, 2017, 9:11:44 PM1/16/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Respected Madhava Puriji Maharaj,
This email is in continuation to my previous mail as emailed to you 3 days ago. On the subject of " house does not vanish when we are away from it", some more thoughts crossed my thought. I thought to share the same with you.--
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Sungchul Ji
Jan 16, 2017, 9:11:44 PM1/16/17
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Puri ji,
Thanks for your eloquent exposition of the Vedic world view.
If I understand your argument correctly, you seem to contrast Western science and Vedic metaphysics, but can it be that these two seemingly antagonistic/contradictory world views are in fact two different aspects of the Ultimate Reality that embodies the principle of irreducible triadic relation (ITR), the former emphasizing Process g and the latter Process f in Figure 1 below:
f g
Noumenon --------> Phenomenon --------> Model
| ^
| ^
| |
| |
|________________________________|
h
Figure 1. The postulate that the Ultimate Reality as the irreducible triad of Noumenon, Phenomenon, and Model (or Knowledge). f = natural process, or ontology; g = mental process, or epistemology; h = information flow, grounding or correspondence.
Is there any way to interpret the Vedantic tradition/metaphysics in an irreducibly triadic manner in harmony with Figure 1?
As an physical-organic-chemist-turned theoretical cell biologist born in the East but educated in the West, I came to firmly believe that, whenever there emerge two irreconcilably opposite views, these oppositions may reflect the complementary aspects of the Ultimate Reality that transcends (and serves as the source of) both.
With all the best.
Sung
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Vinod SehgalRegards.The quantum puzzle of the objective existence of sub-atomic particles makes me to think of either on either of the two lines. First, in the quantum world, there is no reality like "as particle" since any reality if it actually exists "as particle" can't have uncertainties like that of occupying many positions at the same time. So reality in the quantum world should be something else other than 'as particle" about which we are unaware of. A second scenario could be that in the quantum world, reality is in the form of particles but in the "deterministic" fashion and at the ground level. there is no inherent uncertainty. It is the observation and measurement which generate uncertainty in particles. I don't know as to which scenario is logically more correct? However, the concept of reality as particles in the quantum world and also having uncertainties seems to be logically incompatible.In Vedic tradition, there is no consensus amongst scholars on the ultimate base of the noumenal reality. Some metaphysics like Monistic Advaita Vedanta express the view that the noumenal base of the all the sentient and insentient beings, the observable and nonobservable universe is the all-pervading cosmic consciousness. However, some dualistic philosophies like Sankhya retain inert Prakriti as the noumenal base for all the observable and non-observable physicality of the universe. At the same time, such philosophies also retain cosmic consciousness as an ultimate noumenal base, a step transcendental to even Prakriti.What is phenomenal and noumenal are relative concepts.Thanks for elaborating and providing clarifications on my concept of a house as a configuration of sub-atomic particles when we are away from it and don't observe it. What I intended to convey and highlight that as we are away from the house and don't observe it, the phenomenal reality of the house, which makes its appearance due to our observations of mind and senses, no longer exist ( at least for us). This being based on the logical inference that phenomenal reality is created by our mind and senses from and out of some lower level of phenomenal reality ( like sub-atomic particles as you have stated) or some ultimate noumenal reality. In our absence, what is the reality of the house -- whether some configuration and arrangement of sub-atomic particles or strings which again is some phenomenal reality, as you have stated or something else are not known to us at least in the current scientific terms. But definitely behind every phenomenal reality, there should be some reality whether a lower level of phenomenal reality or noumenal reality since no phenomenal reality can arise out from vacuum or nothingness.Respected Madhva Puriji Maharaj,Pranama,
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BMP
Jan 18, 2017, 9:46:29 AM1/18/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Respected Sigfried Bleher,
Pranams.
You asked
" What assumption has to be dropped for us to find consistency between the physical laws that govern our externalized ‘objective’ lives, and those that govern our internal ‘subjective’ experience, science and spirituality? "
Reply
As the metaphor of the false elephant was meant to exemplify it is the inability of analytical thinking to arrive at authentic truth of the content (parts) without reference to the context (whole). It is not science that is at fault, it is the thinking of modern scientists who cannot think the defect in analytical thinking that has diverted science from true knowledge.
The organism as a whole is completely ignored in analytical thinking. So too is the Truth as the Organic Whole of Reality ignored when conceived sensuously/objectively only as a universe. Various theories of material bodies as contained within a fixed space or time framework/coordinate system are abstractions from the idea that space and time are constitutive of material bodies. Descartes understood res extensus or what we call spatiality (extensus) as matter (res). In other words, matter is intrinsically what is spatial, not that matter exists in space external to it. The same is true of time. Bodies are temporal in themselves, not that bodies exist in time as some abstract moving principle in itself.
From: Siegfried Bleher <sbl...@msn.com>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
BMP
Jan 18, 2017, 9:46:30 AM1/18/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Respected Sungchul Ji
Namaste.
If triplicity is understood in terms of Pierce's firstness, secondness, thirdness triad or the UPI (universal particular individual) moments of the concept then the first is the Phenomenal, the second or essence is the Noumenal, and the concept as the implicit unity of the two is the third. When the concept is not properly conceived as in analytic thinking then a mechanistic model is created for what should be the proper concept of the object thus presenting a wholly inadequate process of the poorly understood subject of science.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D,
From: Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
BMP
Jan 18, 2017, 10:09:55 AM1/18/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Respected Vinod
According to Piaget the concept of what is called object permanence is something every infant must learn. See
The world does not disappear every time you close your eyes. When you are hungry others may not feel the same. If you are blind, the rest of the world's population can still see. In other words, reality does not depend upon you. You are an infinitesimal part of reality, not that you are the source of reality.
Science is not a process of creation of reality, it is the attempt to bring concept into congruence with reality. The congruence of concept and reality is called Truth.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 5:41 AM
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Prof. Brian J Ford
Jan 19, 2017, 4:38:15 AM1/19/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
God did not design humans; if so, he would be an
idiot:
Best wishes
Brian J Ford
Jinan K B
Jan 20, 2017, 8:25:03 AM1/20/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Reasoning usurps the self organizing capacity and short circuits real
comprehension-
Exploring the WORD, mind and thought based cognitive system and the
WORLD, senses and experience based cognitive system
Friends
I need your support.
We have established a foundation- Existential Knowledge Foundation- to
initiate research based on the sense/ experience based cognitive
system. It is clear that Modernity has established a thought and mind
based cognitive paradigm and that is/will re structure the cognitive
system to understand the WORD instead of the WORLD.
We become what we engage with.
just as the cycle teaches you how to balance and ride cycle and water
teaches you how to swim by making the necessary changes in you or by
transforming you, the written word also transforms us to know it.
All learning is a result of inner transformation. The characteristics
of the object of learning will have to imbibed by the learner in order
to know it.
We are formed by our cognitive source!
If world is our cognitive source we become the world and if word is
our cognitive source we become the word.
The neural structures are formed by the way we experience and as we
are trained to read, read and read, think, think and think our
cognitive process gets re structured to understand the word.
Reading- thinking- reasoning.....
learning the printed word takes away the life.Knowing from inside is
what all living beings are engaged with to connect/ rediscover the
existential life sustaining knowledge as they engage with the outer
world.
The organized and linear aspect of the written word fragments us and
establish REASON as the process of understanding. Reasoning usurps the
self organizing capacity and short circuits real comprehension.
Reasoning and conscious memorization fulfill the same function which
is to store information. Conscious memorization is just dumping
information using force and reasoning is organized way of storing
information.
Brain pickup skills from what it engages with. Reasoning behavior is
picked up from dealing with organized information from books, ideas
etc.And then we say the world is disorganized!
It is time to go deeply to understand the myths, misunderstanding and
absurdities that modern mind/ thought/ ego based learning paradigm has
been creating. It has alienated and fragmented us from our true
biological moorings.
We have address the whole thing with regards to what kind of space/
condition needs to be provided for the awakening of children.
modernity and the schooling system it has invented invariably destroy
the authentic and original possibilities in children.
World is the curriculum; not the word ; Re-visiting why, what and how
children learn
https://www.academia.edu/s/4b82c2e3c7/world-is-the-curriculum-not-the-word
FORMATION OF THE BEINGNESS IN HUMANS MAY BE THE FOCUS OF EXPLORATION
AND DEEP STUDY.
Hope you will connect with me to take this forward.
Jinan
EXISTENTIAL KNOWLEDGE FOUNDATION
comprehension-
Exploring the WORD, mind and thought based cognitive system and the
WORLD, senses and experience based cognitive system
Friends
I need your support.
We have established a foundation- Existential Knowledge Foundation- to
initiate research based on the sense/ experience based cognitive
system. It is clear that Modernity has established a thought and mind
based cognitive paradigm and that is/will re structure the cognitive
system to understand the WORD instead of the WORLD.
We become what we engage with.
just as the cycle teaches you how to balance and ride cycle and water
teaches you how to swim by making the necessary changes in you or by
transforming you, the written word also transforms us to know it.
All learning is a result of inner transformation. The characteristics
of the object of learning will have to imbibed by the learner in order
to know it.
We are formed by our cognitive source!
If world is our cognitive source we become the world and if word is
our cognitive source we become the word.
The neural structures are formed by the way we experience and as we
are trained to read, read and read, think, think and think our
cognitive process gets re structured to understand the word.
Reading- thinking- reasoning.....
learning the printed word takes away the life.Knowing from inside is
what all living beings are engaged with to connect/ rediscover the
existential life sustaining knowledge as they engage with the outer
world.
The organized and linear aspect of the written word fragments us and
establish REASON as the process of understanding. Reasoning usurps the
self organizing capacity and short circuits real comprehension.
Reasoning and conscious memorization fulfill the same function which
is to store information. Conscious memorization is just dumping
information using force and reasoning is organized way of storing
information.
Brain pickup skills from what it engages with. Reasoning behavior is
picked up from dealing with organized information from books, ideas
etc.And then we say the world is disorganized!
It is time to go deeply to understand the myths, misunderstanding and
absurdities that modern mind/ thought/ ego based learning paradigm has
been creating. It has alienated and fragmented us from our true
biological moorings.
We have address the whole thing with regards to what kind of space/
condition needs to be provided for the awakening of children.
modernity and the schooling system it has invented invariably destroy
the authentic and original possibilities in children.
World is the curriculum; not the word ; Re-visiting why, what and how
children learn
https://www.academia.edu/s/4b82c2e3c7/world-is-the-curriculum-not-the-word
FORMATION OF THE BEINGNESS IN HUMANS MAY BE THE FOCUS OF EXPLORATION
AND DEEP STUDY.
Hope you will connect with me to take this forward.
Jinan
EXISTENTIAL KNOWLEDGE FOUNDATION
Muralidhar K C
Jan 20, 2017, 8:25:03 AM1/20/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
To: Sri. Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Namaste.
You Wrote:
“But we are concerned here with science and how it understands itself, what it's proper object of study is, and how the scientist (consciousness) is to be included in its scope”
My Reply:
Yes. I agree. Where I chose to differ was the reductionistic reference to Bhakti Vedanta as against Vedanta as a whole.
You Wrote:
“All perspectives of the Truth are simply that - finite perspectives. (…)The lesson to be learned is that there is a difference between the individual finite perspective and the all accommodating Absolute Truth and how to realize that”.
My Reply:
Yes, all perspectives of the Truth are finite perspectives unless realized as it is; obviously it includes one’s understanding and explanation of a difference between the individual finite perspective and all accommodating Absolute Truth and how to realize that.
You Wrote:
“You seem to be reading far more of your own ideas into the messages on this forum than is justified. The philosophical discussions and explanations offered here are not concerned with and make no mention of the different forms of yoga or their comparison”.
My Reply:
May be it was so. Perceptions differ. Concepts in Vedantic traditions have existed as the formative part of practices (Yoga) and not for verification which is the case in science; the ultimate goal of Vedanta especially Upanishads has been obvious- realization of divinity within or without by different means (margas) adopted.
Realistically the revealed Vedantic concepts remained meaningful only when practiced and experienced along the journey. As doctrines and when discussed without the immediate experience of it, they are bound to be viewed as skewed or limited as any other.
Well, I did go through most of the e-mails of this thread and chose to respond to certain parts of a few (ref *) in the hope that the holistic feature of Vedanta gets represented properly even when discussed in a different frame of reference (science). I felt that the recognition of different margas (paths/ Yoga) that incorporate Vedantic concepts needed to be considered and discussed far more than engaging in highlighting one school of thought as most appropriate when one seeks to explain the holistic side of Vedanta- even in the context of discussing philosophical underpinnings of science. I reckon that mere textual exegesis without associating it with the sanctioned practices (Yoga) has little meaning or relevance in a scientific world where discussing science in the context of Vedanta itself may be a taboo. For, it is essential that the philosophical foundations of modern science (even if it is found to be on shaky grounds of approximations) when needs to be critiqued in any other perspective -including Vedanta, one has to take into consideration the dynamical aspects of governing principles of scientific research as well.
Therefore any reasonable argument that favors Vedantic way of conception and research as an alternative generally requires an approach that explains Vedanta as a whole in which both the static (philosophical) as well as dynamic (research/practices) aspects can be claimed to be existent and comparable (any attempt at particularization is simply a reductionism of a different kind).
Technically it seems Raja Yoga qualifies better as it incorporates holistically all the three major schools of thought in its practices and fundamental aspects of a reasonable approach- affirmation (Bhakti/ Shraddha- of phenomena- practices), neutrality ( of Karma Yoga- the unknown mind neutrally as the origin of action- meditation) and negation (Gnana- Intelligence- enquiry/research- of noumena).For instance, from a Vedantic or more precisely- Yogic perspective, Science proper can be stated as the complement of Samyama conducted at a conscious level (Jakrata) - a well-defined and consciously projected path of investigation and verification of relationship between the perceivable constituents of phenomena that may facilitate a step forward towards hidden or unknown perfection sought from within.
Sincerely
Muralidhar
*Ref (randomly chosen among the many)
BVM/ 19.2.16
However when we take from the Vedantic view we must try to be aware of the full development and significance of the Philosophical Thinking in Vedanta. Sripad Sankaracharya fulfills only a necessary need at a particular time, place and focused at a particular audience. Before the full fledged concept of theism could be reintroduced in India in its full fledged glory, the voidism of Buddhism needed to be critiqued and that great service has been done by Sripad Adi Sankaracharya.
BMP/2.4.16
Liberation or freedom can be attained only when one acknowledges and accepts one's true identity as a participant in the spiritual reality of God's creation, and gives up one's own mentally contrived or material creations centered upon a false egocentric conception of self independent of the true spiritual reality of which one is just an insignificant bur participating part.
BVM/ 30.1.16
As far as the question of Deity is concerned it means that Absolute truth is ultimately Personal
Rather we have to accept that there are dependent reals and the Absolute is the only Independent Real. All these dependent reals depend for their being and becoming on the absolute sentient.
BVM/ 10.3
We cannot understand Reality by an aggressive attitude (by mental speculation) and Supreme Absolute cannot be understood by the attitude of exploitation or renunciation. One has to develop pure love (unalloyed devotion towards the Supreme Absolute) to realize Him as He is.
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:38 PM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Respected VinodAccording to Piaget the concept of what is called object permanence is something every infant must learn. SeeThe world does not disappear every time you close your eyes. When you are hungry others may not feel the same. If you are blind, the rest of the world's population can still see. In other words, reality does not depend upon you. You are an infinitesimal part of reality, not that you are the source of reality.Science is not a process of creation of reality, it is the attempt to bring concept into congruence with reality. The congruence of concept and reality is called Truth.Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Vinod SehgalRegards.I shall welcome if you could please add to above issues.My view has been that since quantum properties are exhibited by compound particles also and a mountain is also a supersized compound particle & difference in the classical and quantum realm lies in the relative scales, therefore, a mountain should also exhibit quantum properties when the observational platform is of galactic scale. But this scenario is illogical since mountain shall be nowhere at fixed location unless observed. However, this does not answer the Ist issue as raised by me viz if quantum uncertainty is an inherent property of nature or it arises and appears in the observation when a quantum entity is observed from a classical observational perspective.An issue has been roaming in my mind if the quantum uncertainty is an inherent property of nature or it is a property which appears in observation when some quantum objects are viewed from the classical perspective. Quantum Physicists tell that it is not only basic matter and energy particles like photons, electrons which exhibit quantum uncertainty but even compound particles like atoms and molecules exhibit quantum properties. So we can infer that quantum properties are size specific when viewed from the classical perspective. There is no watertight boundary between quantum and classical realm. A mountain is a part of the classical realm in comparison to atoms/molecules but the same mountain shall assume quantum characteristics when viewed from a galactic perspective. In the renewed perspective, galactic scale becomes classical one while mountain assumes quantum scale. So a question arises: If the mountain should exhibit quantum properties when observation is made from galactic perspective?Another aspect of which you had mentioned in your previous mail was regarding quantum puzzle of the objectivity of the particles in the quantum realm. I had shared some thoughts in my email as emailed 3 days ago. Some more ideas had been roaming in my mind.When we see a green tree, the phenomenology of the colour "greenness" is created due to faculties of mind and sense out of e.m radiations of a particular frequency. We know that different colours are nothing but same e.m radiations but with different frequency. But without our observations thru mind and senses, there is no meaning of the phenomenology of colours ( " as are perceived by us') in the e.m radiations. So it will be safe to conclude that when we are away from the tree, there is no meaning of green colour in its phenomenological form, as we perceive thru mind/senses, even though basic cause ( e.m radiations of a particular frequency ) is present. The same is true for the house as exemplified in the previous example and on Einstein's famous quote " The moon is there even when we don't look at it"Respected Madhava Puriji Maharaj,This email is in continuation to my previous mail as emailed to you 3 days ago. On the subject of " house does not vanish when we are away from it", some more thoughts crossed my thought. I thought to share the same with you.
--
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Sue De
Jan 20, 2017, 8:25:03 AM1/20/17
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God designed humans to entertain Himself and keep Himself occupied - intelligence or idiocy?
Our idiocy in spite of being given a brain keeps Him entertained, so His life is not boring. That is a definite proof of how clever God is. We all know death is certain, yet we ignore God and do not think of being in His clutch when we are dying. How amused God is watching us lusting for more and more which makes richer nations sell arms to countries where majority of people do not have enough. Worse still, all religious leaders sit by and watch, feeling very contented that they are serving God. A creator who found such an easy way to keep Himself occupied and entertained is surely to be 'wowed'.
All flying birds do not have hollow bones - shows the Creator's versatile nature. How else would early humans think of making flying objects? Heavy birds flying easily, led to the early hankering to fly.
God is versatile manifested through the diversity of creation and is also intelligent for He knew how to entertain Himself by creating us.
Mrs. Suchitra De.
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Prof. Brian J Ford <bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk>
Sent: 17 January 2017 10:43
Sent: 17 January 2017 10:43
God did not design humans; if so, he would be an idiot:
Xavier William
Jan 20, 2017, 8:25:03 AM1/20/17
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Dear Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D,
According to your argument complex structures such as cells cannot come into being without a creator. Here the keyword is complex. Most adjectives we use are subjective and do not have any absolute meaning. Thus the word hot or cold are subjective/relative and can vary for the same person. Thus if you dip your left hand in cold water and your right hand in warm water and then dip both together in ordinary water, the left hand feels that the water is warm while the right hand feels it is is cold. Similarly the word beautiful depends on the beholder and varies from person to person. It is the same with the word complex. It is only from our point of view that a cell is more complex than an element. In absolute terms both are equally complex and it is as difficult for an element or atom to come into existence as it is for a complex polymer or cell to come into existence. I do not know what the most elementary of fundamental particle is. In the beginning they thought that the atom is the most fundamental particle and that it could not be divided further. But now we have found that there are protons, neutrons, electrons, positrons and a horde of subatomic particles. What is more if your argument is valid then the smallest and most fundamental particle - if there is such a fundamental particle - would have to be created from nothing. Now, which is more difficult, to make the fundamental particle from nothing or to make complicated cells from existing elements?
Your argument that for a complex being such as the cell cannot come into being without a creator is self-contradictory. If the cell is complex the creator who created it must be even more complex. Thus for making a complex computer the computer maker has to be more sophisticated and complex than than the computer . When you say that there must be a creator for complex cell, then that creator must be even more complex than the cell and that creator must have existed before the creation. Now comes the million or trillion dollar question: how did the complex creator come into being? We do not know! It is the same answer that should be given to your question as to how the complex cells came into being. What is more if the creator can exist on his own without another creator, why cant creation exist of its own without a creator?
One of the most fundamental laws of nature is the law of gravity according to which two bodies attract each other with a force proportional to their masses ... etc. If we ask the question why do bodies attract each other in accordance with this law of gravity, there may not be an answer. Even if there were an answer which I am sure we will find in the near future we can again ask why it is so. So there are an infinite number of possible questions and we will reach a point when we have no answers. We would then have to answer "We do not know." It is this answer we have to your question as to how complex cells came into being or other more fundamental questions. There are more questions without answers than questions with answers and it is best to leave such questions alone without answers until and unless we have the right answer with EVIDENCE. All other answers without evidence are mere speculations and your speculation is as good as mine even if contradictory. So dont jump to conclusions unless you are absolutely certain of the answers and the evidences to back them up with.
Even if we assume that a god-creator created everything, then comes the question as to exactly what or who that creator god is. There were and are millions of such creator gods worshiped from the beginning of time all over the world from jungles to cities and many of whom have become obsolete and are no more worshiped such as the gods of ancient Greece and Rome. Without identifying the exact creator-god. whom do we honor and worship as the creator? Some of these gods or their followers say that if we worship the wrong god it is blasphemy which is worse than not worshiping any god. So my dear Bakthi Vedanta unless you are absolutely certain about the real creator-god, it is better not to worship any god as we atheists do than to worship the wrong god which is certain to land you in hell or worse.
On 15 January 2017 at 19:19, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dr. Brian Ford,Namaste.You wrote in your article "Fantastic Physics — and Worlds We Never See""When people observe tiny motors at work within cells, or gear wheels meshing together, they sometimes conclude that someone up there somewhere must have designed it. This is the height of hubris. Single cells have been evolving mechanisms that are still beyond human comprehension since life began."Your very nice and informative article up to this point was about careful observation of Nature versus the scientific hype about what is not observed or dimly understood. Yet when you come to the point about the astonishing design that is found in nature, why is the natural inference of a divine rational source dismissed as hubris in favor of the hype of an 'evolving mechanism' based on random chance beyond human comprehension?Nobel laureate, Werner Arber had no reservations writing:"The most primitive cells may require at least several hundred different specific biological macromolecules. How such already quite complex structures may have come together, remains a mystery to me. The possibility of the existence of a Creator, of God, represents to me a satisfactory solution to this problem."Wolfgang Pauli, of the famous Pauli principle in quantum theory, said that evolutionary theory is a “philosophy . . . going very far beyond that, which is empirically known. And nobody gives any explanation for the occurrences within a given time of any event, which is important in evolution (as for instance, that a reptile gets feathers).” He also said that chance is applied “to single events without connection with probability calculus, in a way that is entirely synonymous with ‘miracle’.”If the evidence points to God, why is science so adamant about refusing to admit that. A science that includes God is not less scientific, except for the way scientists think about it. It does not mean that God has to be eliminated from science but that scientists have to learn how to think scientifically in terms of God.Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
--
Regards
Myth Buster
Cataract is the third biggest cause of blindness. By far religion and politics remain the first and second.
"All new ideas good or bad, great or small start with a one-man minority" - anonymous
M. R. N. Murthy
Jan 21, 2017, 8:50:27 AM1/21/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
20 January 2017
Dear Myth Buster,
I enjoyed reading your E-mail posted on Sadhu-Sangha.
Christians and Muslims send Heathens and Kafirs to
eternal hell while they themselves rot in eternal heaven
where there is nothing to do, nothing to worry about! We
Hindus are smarter. Depending on the amount of good and
bad deeds you have done, we send you to heaven and hell
for a period proportional to your good and bad deeds.
Please note that the good and bad cannot cancel each other.
You are doomed to spend your term in both heaven and hell.
Once you have paid all debts of the present life, you are
born again on earth to carry on with your good and bad
Karmas. The cycle continues almost for ever.
How excruciatingly boring!
Regards,
Murthy
> and unless we have the right answer with *EVIDENCE. *All other answers
>> Facebook <http://facebook.com/bviscs>
Molecular Biophysics Unit
Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore 560 012
INDIA
Dear Myth Buster,
I enjoyed reading your E-mail posted on Sadhu-Sangha.
Christians and Muslims send Heathens and Kafirs to
eternal hell while they themselves rot in eternal heaven
where there is nothing to do, nothing to worry about! We
Hindus are smarter. Depending on the amount of good and
bad deeds you have done, we send you to heaven and hell
for a period proportional to your good and bad deeds.
Please note that the good and bad cannot cancel each other.
You are doomed to spend your term in both heaven and hell.
Once you have paid all debts of the present life, you are
born again on earth to carry on with your good and bad
Karmas. The cycle continues almost for ever.
How excruciatingly boring!
Regards,
Murthy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards
>
> Myth Buster
>
> Cataract is the third biggest cause of blindness. By far religion and
> politics remain the first and second.
>
> "All new ideas good or bad, great or small start with a one-man minority" -
> anonymous
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards
>
> Myth Buster
>
> Cataract is the third biggest cause of blindness. By far religion and
> politics remain the first and second.
>
> "All new ideas good or bad, great or small start with a one-man minority" -
> anonymous
>
> --
> ----------------------------
> BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
> http://bviscs.org/reports
>
> Science and Scientist - 2016
> http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
>
> Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue:
> http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
>
> Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
>
> Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
>
> Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
>
> Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
>
> Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
> ----------------------------
> BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
> http://bviscs.org/reports
>
> Science and Scientist - 2016
> http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
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> Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue:
> http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
>
> Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
>
> Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
>
> Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view:
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
>
> Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
>
> Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
>
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>
> Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
>
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>
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Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore 560 012
INDIA
Deepak Chopra
Jan 21, 2017, 8:50:27 AM1/21/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Sue De <sue...@hotmail.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2017 11:31:26 AM
To: online_sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2017 11:31:26 AM
To: online_sa...@googlegroups.com
con...@howgravityworks.org
Jan 21, 2017, 8:50:27 AM1/21/17
to Prof. Brian J Ford, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, Walter Babin
Well, as Walter Babin so eloquently put it, in regard to Theoretical Physics; "It's all unrestricted speculation."
An Analysis of the Theoretical Foundations of 20th Century Physics;
Other papers;
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
From: "Prof. Brian J Ford" <bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, January 21, 2017 6:02 am
To: <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: <con...@howgravityworks.org>
These are prescient comments: "It's just a jobs program for physicists. What's really odd is they pat themselves on the backs and hand out Nobel Prizes for their efforts."This is the view in my next published article in America. The absurd and wasteful hype and hubris surrounding astrophysics and theoretical physics is an astonishing phenomenon rich in resonances of medieval speculation.This topic has been addressed in a not-yet-published article: http://brianjford.com/CF26.pdfRegretfully, I am no longer a member of this Google group, as I truly have no time to deal with this online, in addition to a full load of responsibilities. I simply hope this provides an alternative view of present-day preoccupations.
Best wishesBrian J Ford----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 11:06 AMSubject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
My apologies if I have offended anyone. It's just sometimes I think that I am really tired of everything.(Especially the recent US election.)Thank you again.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Mon, January 09, 2017 6:25 am
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com"
<Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Thank you, Eric for your intelligent if brutal honesty.Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
Good answer. What really disturbs me is the ability of the individual to construct a reality for themselvesthat is based in no factual evidence at all. What's even more disturbing is the will of some to impose theirreality on others even though the imposer knows that the reality they are imposing is false.An ignorant or illiterate can also create a false reality and impose it on others if they have a strong enoughpersonality and that is even more disturbing. Perhaps that is the true reason for Sharia Law to exist.It would appear to be a unifying set of rules that unites and controls an otherwise barbaric and chaoticmass of ignorant people that would be without discipline without it.My reality is the universe is dynamical chaos that manages to fall within parameter. For example;All Oak trees are Oaks yet, no two are ever the exactly same. No two Vidalia onions are exactly the same.No two stars are exactly the same. At CERN and Fermilab, no two collisions are exactly the same.Their efforts are a waste of time as any particles they create only last nanoseconds and then they "evaporate".The really odd thing is not one physicist at those facilities ever ask "Where did they evaporate to?"...(The only logical answer is, back to the Aether.) It's just a jobs program for physicists.What's really odd is they pat themselves on the backs and hand out Nobel Prizes for their efforts.I see the real benefit of those projects is that it's all good magnet R&D...... (For future Antimatter Containment)We probably shouldn't be upset about anything. Sometimes I consider that I am the only entity in existenceand that everything and everyone in my reality is a construct for my amusement. (Or torture lately..... LOL)(You can't enjoy the good times without a little bad.)Residing in the urban environment give me the impression that the stupid people have propagated out of control.And, every one of them has the right to exist..... and vote!....... (There's no hope for Humanity.)
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
> "The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
>I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some even are able to alter >others reality by their mere physical presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all >their realities would seem to be false.
REPLYThis seems to be as concise an assessment of the situation as any already presented.It is reasonable to say that individuals may have different interpretations of reality, but in itself Reality is not simply a matter of being a human construct or there would be no meaning to 'error,' 'mistake,' 'illusion,' and so on. Indeed there would be no meaning to 'truth' as opposed to untruth.Human consciousness is limited to its body. An individual is conscious only to the limits of its skin or surface. One may see a tree, or a star, or a bat - but that same individual cannot know or be conscious of what it is like to be a bat, as one recent American philosopher, Thomas Nagel, famously announced in The Philosophical Review in October 1974.A human being has direct consciousness of its body and of its thoughts, but beyond that it has only representations (signs), images, or reflections (on the mind's mirror) of the world outside its body. Human consciousness is therefore NOT the consciousness of trees, stars, bats, or anything else. It is conscious of other things beyond itsbody, but not the consciousness of those things.However, there is a consciousness of both individual human consciousness and the other things/persons of which an individual may be conscious. That universal consciousness is not only the consciousness of all Reality but also the consciousness of itself, i.e. it is self-consciousness in and for Itself. This universal self-consciousness is identical with itself as Reality, since Reality is the manifestation or expression of itself as real (being-for-other, or Otherness), while not losing its being-for-itself or self-consciousness as its ideality or Self-Concept. Here we find the true dynamic meaning of Advaita (non-duality), or the negation of dvaita (duality). Reality as the Otherness of Universal Self-consciousness is simultaneously Other (different from) yet identical (same as) universal Self consciousness being the manifest determinateness of what Self-consciousness is.To strip Universal Self-consciousness of its Reality is to abstract consciousness from its concrete Truth as Self-consciousness of Itself. In other words, it is to end up with a one-sided mental abstraction from the concrete or whole truth. There are two mistakes here: 1. not only is Universal Self-consciousness abstracted from Its own Reality, but 2. Self-consciousness is naievly reduced to consciousness which lacks the integral unity essential to it (the Self or true Ego) - what Kant called the unity of apperception.These mistakes are the result of relying on contingent irrational intuitions (instincts) without proper philosophical study or knowledge of the logical necessity that governs the internal rationality of all thought sequences or movement. Philosophers of Spirit have studied and reached rational conclusions on the nature of consciousness and its ground in Spirit. Those who ignore that body of knowledge are illiterate and can only be victimized by their own conditioned instincts. That is not how human knowledge or science advances.When an image is reflected in a mirror, the image is not considered to be the result of glass and silver of the mirror somehow acting to create the image. The image has its orgin outside of the mirror and is made of completely different stuff. A tree reflected in a lake is not made of water. A radio playing back a broadcast it has received is not producing the broadcast from itself. Each of these examples provide metaphors for how to understand the difference between a reality outside of human consciousness can be reflected within an individual's consciousness without being the product of that consciousness.At the same time Reality is not fixed in stone; it is not an inert slab or impersonal substance. It does not exist only as a reflection within human consciousness, nor as a product of human consciousness. Such ideas do not pass the examination of rational thought. The idea that Reality is Self-conscious Thinking Being in and for itself [Spirit/God] does not suffer that defect. An individual is a finite moment or instantiation of Living Reality that reflects that Reality immanently within its infinitesimal self and can interpret or misinterpret it according to the extent of its knowledge and wisdom.
Visit us on Facebook========================Original message appears in Sadhu sanga digest for Jan 3 - 4contact (con...@howgravityworks.org) Jan 4
"The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some even are able to alter others reality by their mere physical presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all their realities would seem to be false.Being an electrical contractor my entire working life, I have observed the following scenario; I am working in a large commercial building with a thousand people sitting in cubicles with phones and computers.There's everyone from CEO to janitor working there also.Suddenly, "Boom" the electricity for the entire building goes out.Until I can rush to the main distribution switchgear and restore power, they all become totally useless.If the power went out permanently, they would all be sitting around candles chanting "Nam myoho renge kyo".It's actually a frightening scenario to me. Some say, "Who would want to live without electricity."
Whit Blauvelt
Jan 21, 2017, 8:50:27 AM1/21/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Hi Jinan,
I do recognize what you're focusing on here as part of the elephant. Thought
in a context of aware engagement with the senses has some obvious advantages
when achieved, compared to thought isolated from the senses. There have been
many wisdom traditions, from the Druids to the Taoists, which have respected
this.
But there's an evident way of getting it wrong too. In America the peoples
of the books, of accumulated expert knowledge and advanced verbal logical
capabilities, will hardly be represented today at the inaguration of a man
who rarely reads, and revels in his senses. His election, indeed, was
organized from some instinctual place, not reasoning. Thus the reasoning
classes had such trouble interpreting, let alone containing, his rise.
Even though I am with you on the importance of bringing the senses to the
center of mind, when the cost of that is a displacement of reason, the cost
can be too high. I am not alone is expecting the rise of this man of
unreason, despite or because of the strength of his spontaneous organizing
capacity, to seriously threaten the survival of civilization.
Could it be we need both? Not sense _or_ reason, but sense and reason
thoroughly infused together. Could their separation, rather than the triumph
of either over the other, be the root problem we must resolve?
Best,
Whit
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 10:31:53PM +0530, Jinan K B wrote:
...
I do recognize what you're focusing on here as part of the elephant. Thought
in a context of aware engagement with the senses has some obvious advantages
when achieved, compared to thought isolated from the senses. There have been
many wisdom traditions, from the Druids to the Taoists, which have respected
this.
But there's an evident way of getting it wrong too. In America the peoples
of the books, of accumulated expert knowledge and advanced verbal logical
capabilities, will hardly be represented today at the inaguration of a man
who rarely reads, and revels in his senses. His election, indeed, was
organized from some instinctual place, not reasoning. Thus the reasoning
classes had such trouble interpreting, let alone containing, his rise.
Even though I am with you on the importance of bringing the senses to the
center of mind, when the cost of that is a displacement of reason, the cost
can be too high. I am not alone is expecting the rise of this man of
unreason, despite or because of the strength of his spontaneous organizing
capacity, to seriously threaten the survival of civilization.
Could it be we need both? Not sense _or_ reason, but sense and reason
thoroughly infused together. Could their separation, rather than the triumph
of either over the other, be the root problem we must resolve?
Best,
Whit
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 10:31:53PM +0530, Jinan K B wrote:
...
> We have established a foundation- Existential Knowledge Foundation- to
> initiate research based on the sense/ experience based cognitive
> system. It is clear that Modernity has established a thought and mind
> based cognitive paradigm and that is/will re structure the cognitive
> system to understand the WORD instead of the WORLD.
...
> initiate research based on the sense/ experience based cognitive
> system. It is clear that Modernity has established a thought and mind
> based cognitive paradigm and that is/will re structure the cognitive
> system to understand the WORD instead of the WORLD.
> If world is our cognitive source we become the world and if word is
> our cognitive source we become the word.
> The neural structures are formed by the way we experience and as we
> are trained to read, read and read, think, think and think our
> cognitive process gets re structured to understand the word.
> Reading- thinking- reasoning.....
> learning the printed word takes away the life.Knowing from inside is
> what all living beings are engaged with to connect/ rediscover the
> existential life sustaining knowledge as they engage with the outer
> world.
>
> The organized and linear aspect of the written word fragments us and
> establish REASON as the process of understanding. Reasoning usurps the
> self organizing capacity and short circuits real comprehension.
> Reasoning and conscious memorization fulfill the same function which
> is to store information. Conscious memorization is just dumping
> information using force and reasoning is organized way of storing
> information.
....
> our cognitive source we become the word.
> The neural structures are formed by the way we experience and as we
> are trained to read, read and read, think, think and think our
> cognitive process gets re structured to understand the word.
> Reading- thinking- reasoning.....
> learning the printed word takes away the life.Knowing from inside is
> what all living beings are engaged with to connect/ rediscover the
> existential life sustaining knowledge as they engage with the outer
> world.
>
> The organized and linear aspect of the written word fragments us and
> establish REASON as the process of understanding. Reasoning usurps the
> self organizing capacity and short circuits real comprehension.
> Reasoning and conscious memorization fulfill the same function which
> is to store information. Conscious memorization is just dumping
> information using force and reasoning is organized way of storing
> information.
NYIKOS, PETER
Jan 21, 2017, 8:50:27 AM1/21/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Xavier William, you are distorting what Dr. Puri wrote. He is only asking you to seriously consider the possibility of a creator/designer.
As I put it facetiously a few minutes ago on Amazon.com to one of the many people who have similarly distorted similar things that I have said,
`Have you caught on yet to the fact that "agnostic" is not necessarily a weasel word for "atheist" nor a weasel word for "theist"?'
Please also consider that "creator" could also mean what people mean when they talk about human "creativity." The fantastically complicated cells in life as we know it could have been produced in a laboratory by intelligent beings whose bodies were made up of less complicated cells. And those other beings could have been produced by purely natural processes of the sort that your philosophy forces you to believe in.
Or they could have been produced by a supernatural creator. See my facetious comment above again.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos/
As I put it facetiously a few minutes ago on Amazon.com to one of the many people who have similarly distorted similar things that I have said,
`Have you caught on yet to the fact that "agnostic" is not necessarily a weasel word for "atheist" nor a weasel word for "theist"?'
Please also consider that "creator" could also mean what people mean when they talk about human "creativity." The fantastically complicated cells in life as we know it could have been produced in a laboratory by intelligent beings whose bodies were made up of less complicated cells. And those other beings could have been produced by purely natural processes of the sort that your philosophy forces you to believe in.
Or they could have been produced by a supernatural creator. See my facetious comment above again.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos/
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [online_sa...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Xavier William [vare...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 10:01 PM
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Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 10:01 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com; awake...@yahoogroups.co.uk; TheBe...@yahoogroups.com; desi_p...@yahoogroups.com; dali...@yahoogroups.com; mahajanapada; amdavadis4...@yahoogroups.com; Janshakti; Arya Arya; worldmal...@yahoogroups.com; hilda raja; Sekar Balasubramaniam; Balakrishnan Hariharan; Panda Balinki; Mukunddan Xb; Shakuntala Iyer; Sita Shankar; Ranganathan T. G.; CHARI; Kuppuswamy Sk; Annapoorni Sankaran; Sankaran Ns; Kamal Sharma; A.Trivedi Anant; Sri Ram; Srinivasaramanujan TCA; Dinesh Thakur
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Eric Reyes
Jan 22, 2017, 8:28:30 AM1/22/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, Whit Blauvelt
I share your fear of what "that man" might do Whit.
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Anirudh Satsangi
Jan 22, 2017, 8:28:31 AM1/22/17
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Dear All
According to Radhasoami Faith there are three grand divisions of the universe viz.,
1. Nirmal Chetan Desh (Region of Pure Spirituality) - This region is mostly unknown and unexplained scientifically.
2. Brahmand Desh (Spiritual-Material Region) - Known part of the universe. This is also known as subtle material region.
3. Pind Desh (Material-Spiritual Region) - Known part of the universe. Mostly visible to our naked eyes. This is also known as gross material region
"The creation of Pind includes our Solar System and the Brahmanda is above it and the Nirmal Chetan Dham i.e. Dayal Desh is still higher and beyond" (Bachan No. 65, Selected Bachans of Param Guru Maharaj Sahab).
Thus it is clear that our Solar System is Pind Desh and Milky Way Galaxy is our Brahmada Region (our Triloki). There are billions of galaxies in our universe (known part). Each galaxy is also known as Island Universe. In the terminology of Religion of Saints we may call it Triloki. Pind and Brahmanda comprise about 6% of known universe so far. Remaining (about 94%) of the universe is unexplained till date. This unknown part of the universe comprises mostly of dark energy and dark matter. Perhaps this unexplained and unknown part of the universe constitute the region of Nirmal Chetan Desh (Region of Pure Spirituality)
This seems to be an approximate scientific validation of Radhasoami Faith view of division of the universe into three grand divisions.
We are the integral part of this WHOLE. We are the representative of Bio-Physics.
On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
For anyone interested
2013 Costa Del Mar RoadCarlsbad, CA 92009
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Sue De <sue...@hotmail.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2017 11:31:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
God designed humans to entertain Himself and keep Himself occupied - intelligence or idiocy?
Our idiocy in spite of being given a brain keeps Him entertained, so His life is not boring. That is a definite proof of how clever God is. We all know death is certain, yet we ignore God and do not think of being in His clutch when we are dying. How amused God is watching us lusting for more and more which makes richer nations sell arms to countries where majority of people do not have enough. Worse still, all religious leaders sit by and watch, feeling very contented that they are serving God. A creator who found such an easy way to keep Himself occupied and entertained is surely to be 'wowed'.
All flying birds do not have hollow bones - shows the Creator's versatile nature. How else would early humans think of making flying objects? Heavy birds flying easily, led to the early hankering to fly.
God is versatile manifested through the diversity of creation and is also intelligent for He knew how to entertain Himself by creating us.
Mrs. Suchitra De.
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Prof. Brian J Ford <bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk>
Sent: 17 January 2017 10:43
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Radheshyam Das
Jan 22, 2017, 8:28:31 AM1/22/17
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According to the ‘big bang’ theory, everything began from ‘a point of infinite temperature, infinite density, infinitesimal
size that is physically indescribable, mathematically unverifiable, beyond all conceptions of space and time.’
Many wise people have sincerely questioned, "How can a physically unrealisable, mathematically unverifiable theory be accepted as a
scientific theory? Is it not blind faith to believe everything came from a ‘big bang’? Is it not a good joke to think ‘a point’ to be the cause of all causes?
Also Encyclopaedia Britannica says, “It should be emphasized that no theory of the origin of solar system has as yet won general acceptance. All involve highly improbable assumptions.”
While athiests are using the best of their brains to give an explanation doing away with God, the theistic Scientists also have also many ways to establish the presence of a Creator beyond this Universe and its not wrong for us to have a look :
Henological (unity between parts and whole) : Look at all parts of your body; they serve the belly and belly in turn gives nourishment to all parts of body. Similarly a President of a Country is paid the taxes by population and he in turn maintains them all. All children in a School obey the Principal and he in turn arranges for their education and certificate to place them in a job. This is Singular Supreme and Plural subordinate principle found everywhere in the universe. Now we are all plural living beings, some 7 billion of us and we're getting nourishment of body, mind etc through heat and light (Sun), rains (water), grains, serials, spices (food), ayurvedic medicines (medicine) etc. Since we are plurals receiving all these favors, we are also under the rule of a Supreme. For example smoking, drinking, drugs, illicit connections etc bringforth physical and psychological sufferings, while yoga, meditation etc bringforth good health. Is it not a clear indication that someone is awarding suffering or happiness? Did we cut our facecuts? Did we choose our parents? If whole universe follows definite physical, chemical, mathematical, thermodynamic laws, how then can beauty, knowledge, strength, fame, riches, renunciation etc be arising by chance? Another observation : Symbiotic relationships involve a Supervisor above. For example, students pay fee to College and Teachers give them education, but this mutual benefit is made possible by a Principal. We pay money in a hotel and waiters serve us food; but this mutual arrangement is made because of a Hotel owner. Similarly plants supply us oxygen and we supply them CO2. Birds help Bulls/cows remove worms from their necks benefiting from mutual relationship, parents raise children and later children care for old parents, cows supply us milk and we maintain them in turn -- how can such symbiotic relationships exist without a superior who arranged for such mutual dependence?
Cosmological (God is cause of all causes) : My father, his father, his father.....all are living bodies; how can the source of all these living bodies be dead matter. When Dawkins brought up the point of life arising from matter, he laughed at his own proposition saying that his writing should be read like a fiction novel! (please see the reference article attached). If I am a sincere seeker of meaning and purpose of life, I will not agree to be fooled by such fiction laws that are cooked up the keep God in bay so that we humans can go on living a wanton life of eat, drink and be merry with no rhyme or rhythm to life.
Teleological (Argument from design) : Our body is a machine. Universe is a machine. First of all we can clearly show that life cannot arise from chemicals. Life has always come from life. Have you ever seen a Desktop computer uniting with a Laptop computer to produce a palmtop Computer? Only living bodies reproduce. Although some Scientists claimed that human being could be a highly developed matter, they've never practically proved any living body arising from matter till date. Even the cloning is done from two living bodies. Now to understand the presence of a Supreme God with big brain beyond the universe, we can first understand the spirit behind the body. When there is a spirit within the body, the body grows; dead matter only depreciates. Similarly when there is spirit present in a living body, the body reproduces and undergoes six changes of birth, growth, production of byproducts, maintained, dwindling and death. When spirit leaves, even a common man throws away the body of a relative understanding it to be a bag of flesh, bones, mucus, bile, stool, urine etc good for nothing. A hair on our head is decorated when body is living, but when the same hair is detached from the body and comes in food, it is considered impure. Thus the spirit is what gives meaning to our bodies. We may look at moving fishes in an aquarium or a walking girl on road. But we don't see a moving fan on the ceiling or a stationary mananquin in a clothe shop. Reason is simple. Presence of Spirit in a body makes body attractive, because spirit is beautiful. Spirit is beautiful because spirit is a part of God who is Supremely beautiful. In this way, we can come to understand the presence of a Supreme beyond the Cosmic machine, by studying our own spirits, who are beyond our bodily CNC machines.
I can say more but i want to be sensitive to your valuable time to hear these simple, logical, beautiful ways in which presence of a Supreme becomes so self-evident. I thank you all for discussing this most meaningful theme that is vital to all our lives which can open doors to our everlasting happiness, which is the very nature of spirit. Thank you very much.
Yours in service of Lord and humanity
Radheshyam das
-----Original Message-----
From: Sue De [mailto:sue...@hotmail.co.uk]
Sent: 19 January 2017 10:01 PM
To: online_sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
God designed humans to entertain Himself and keep Himself occupied - intelligence or idiocy?
Our idiocy in spite of being given a brain keeps Him entertained, so His life is not boring. That is a definite proof of how clever God is. We all know death is certain, yet we ignore God and do not think of being in His clutch when we are dying. How amused God is watching us lusting for more and more which makes richer nations sell arms to countries where majority of people do not have enough. Worse still, all religious leaders sit by and watch, feeling very contented that they are serving God. A creator who found such an easy way to keep Himself occupied and entertained is surely to be 'wowed'.
All flying birds do not have hollow bones - shows the Creator's versatile nature. How else would early humans think of making flying objects? Heavy birds flying easily, led to the early hankering to fly.
God is versatile manifested through the diversity of creation and is also intelligent for He knew how to entertain Himself by creating us.
Mrs. Suchitra De.
________________________________
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
on behalf of Prof. Brian J Ford <bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk>
Sent: 17 January 2017 10:43
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
God did not design humans; if so, he would be an idiot:
http://brianjford.com/CF13.pdf
pp1-48 Vol 61(1) WORKING - Brian J Ford<http://brianjford.com/CF13.pdf>
Facebook<http://facebook.com/bviscs>
________________________________
From: Prof. Brian J Ford
<bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk<mailto:bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk>>
To:
Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: fis <f...@listas.unizar.es<mailto:f...@listas.unizar.es>>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 10:42 AM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
The extraordinary hyperbole surrounding theoretical physics and cosmology is disproportionate in comparison with sciences with which people should be familiar; I have addressed this in a shortly published article (attached, and in confidence).
There are strong resonances with the mythical world of Jonathan Swift in all this.
On the safety of nuclear explosions, although the atomic bomb's capacity for destruction was less than some had predicted, bear in mind (as I have discussed in a recent book) that the Little Boy bomb dropped on Hiroshima contained 59 kg U235, of which only 600 mg was released as thermal energy. Had it all been converted, as some were anticipating, it would have been 100,000 times as powerful.
Best wishes
Brian J Ford
Cambridge UK
----- Original Message -----
From: con...@howgravityworks.org<mailto:con...@howgravityworks.org>
To:
Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
My apologies if I have offended anyone. It's just sometimes I think that I am really tired of everything.
(Especially the recent US election.)
Thank you again.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
Puri Maharaja, Ph.D."
<Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
Date: Mon, January 09, 2017 6:25 am
To:
"Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>"
<Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
Thank you, Eric for your intelligent if brutal honesty.
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE – of Spiritual Culture & Science<http://bviscs.org/>
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE – of Spiritual Culture & Science
--
----------------------------
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives http://bviscs.org/reports
Science and Scientist - 2016
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue:
http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved€ntic view:
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BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives http://bviscs.org/reports
Science and Scientist - 2016
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue:
http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved€ntic view:
size that is physically indescribable, mathematically unverifiable, beyond all conceptions of space and time.’
Many wise people have sincerely questioned, "How can a physically unrealisable, mathematically unverifiable theory be accepted as a
scientific theory? Is it not blind faith to believe everything came from a ‘big bang’? Is it not a good joke to think ‘a point’ to be the cause of all causes?
Also Encyclopaedia Britannica says, “It should be emphasized that no theory of the origin of solar system has as yet won general acceptance. All involve highly improbable assumptions.”
While athiests are using the best of their brains to give an explanation doing away with God, the theistic Scientists also have also many ways to establish the presence of a Creator beyond this Universe and its not wrong for us to have a look :
Henological (unity between parts and whole) : Look at all parts of your body; they serve the belly and belly in turn gives nourishment to all parts of body. Similarly a President of a Country is paid the taxes by population and he in turn maintains them all. All children in a School obey the Principal and he in turn arranges for their education and certificate to place them in a job. This is Singular Supreme and Plural subordinate principle found everywhere in the universe. Now we are all plural living beings, some 7 billion of us and we're getting nourishment of body, mind etc through heat and light (Sun), rains (water), grains, serials, spices (food), ayurvedic medicines (medicine) etc. Since we are plurals receiving all these favors, we are also under the rule of a Supreme. For example smoking, drinking, drugs, illicit connections etc bringforth physical and psychological sufferings, while yoga, meditation etc bringforth good health. Is it not a clear indication that someone is awarding suffering or happiness? Did we cut our facecuts? Did we choose our parents? If whole universe follows definite physical, chemical, mathematical, thermodynamic laws, how then can beauty, knowledge, strength, fame, riches, renunciation etc be arising by chance? Another observation : Symbiotic relationships involve a Supervisor above. For example, students pay fee to College and Teachers give them education, but this mutual benefit is made possible by a Principal. We pay money in a hotel and waiters serve us food; but this mutual arrangement is made because of a Hotel owner. Similarly plants supply us oxygen and we supply them CO2. Birds help Bulls/cows remove worms from their necks benefiting from mutual relationship, parents raise children and later children care for old parents, cows supply us milk and we maintain them in turn -- how can such symbiotic relationships exist without a superior who arranged for such mutual dependence?
Cosmological (God is cause of all causes) : My father, his father, his father.....all are living bodies; how can the source of all these living bodies be dead matter. When Dawkins brought up the point of life arising from matter, he laughed at his own proposition saying that his writing should be read like a fiction novel! (please see the reference article attached). If I am a sincere seeker of meaning and purpose of life, I will not agree to be fooled by such fiction laws that are cooked up the keep God in bay so that we humans can go on living a wanton life of eat, drink and be merry with no rhyme or rhythm to life.
Teleological (Argument from design) : Our body is a machine. Universe is a machine. First of all we can clearly show that life cannot arise from chemicals. Life has always come from life. Have you ever seen a Desktop computer uniting with a Laptop computer to produce a palmtop Computer? Only living bodies reproduce. Although some Scientists claimed that human being could be a highly developed matter, they've never practically proved any living body arising from matter till date. Even the cloning is done from two living bodies. Now to understand the presence of a Supreme God with big brain beyond the universe, we can first understand the spirit behind the body. When there is a spirit within the body, the body grows; dead matter only depreciates. Similarly when there is spirit present in a living body, the body reproduces and undergoes six changes of birth, growth, production of byproducts, maintained, dwindling and death. When spirit leaves, even a common man throws away the body of a relative understanding it to be a bag of flesh, bones, mucus, bile, stool, urine etc good for nothing. A hair on our head is decorated when body is living, but when the same hair is detached from the body and comes in food, it is considered impure. Thus the spirit is what gives meaning to our bodies. We may look at moving fishes in an aquarium or a walking girl on road. But we don't see a moving fan on the ceiling or a stationary mananquin in a clothe shop. Reason is simple. Presence of Spirit in a body makes body attractive, because spirit is beautiful. Spirit is beautiful because spirit is a part of God who is Supremely beautiful. In this way, we can come to understand the presence of a Supreme beyond the Cosmic machine, by studying our own spirits, who are beyond our bodily CNC machines.
I can say more but i want to be sensitive to your valuable time to hear these simple, logical, beautiful ways in which presence of a Supreme becomes so self-evident. I thank you all for discussing this most meaningful theme that is vital to all our lives which can open doors to our everlasting happiness, which is the very nature of spirit. Thank you very much.
Yours in service of Lord and humanity
Radheshyam das
-----Original Message-----
From: Sue De [mailto:sue...@hotmail.co.uk]
Sent: 19 January 2017 10:01 PM
To: online_sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
God designed humans to entertain Himself and keep Himself occupied - intelligence or idiocy?
Our idiocy in spite of being given a brain keeps Him entertained, so His life is not boring. That is a definite proof of how clever God is. We all know death is certain, yet we ignore God and do not think of being in His clutch when we are dying. How amused God is watching us lusting for more and more which makes richer nations sell arms to countries where majority of people do not have enough. Worse still, all religious leaders sit by and watch, feeling very contented that they are serving God. A creator who found such an easy way to keep Himself occupied and entertained is surely to be 'wowed'.
All flying birds do not have hollow bones - shows the Creator's versatile nature. How else would early humans think of making flying objects? Heavy birds flying easily, led to the early hankering to fly.
God is versatile manifested through the diversity of creation and is also intelligent for He knew how to entertain Himself by creating us.
Mrs. Suchitra De.
________________________________
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
on behalf of Prof. Brian J Ford <bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk>
Sent: 17 January 2017 10:43
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
God did not design humans; if so, he would be an idiot:
http://brianjford.com/CF13.pdf
brianjford.com
25 THE MICROSCOPE • Vol. 61:1, pp 25–34 (2013) Debunking the Myth of Intelligent Design C R I T I C A L FOCUS Brian J. Ford If there were such a thing as ...
Best wishes
Brian J Ford
----- Original Message -----
From: Siegfried Bleher<mailto:sbl...@msn.com>
To:
Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 2:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Dear Professor Puri,
Maybe the “height of hubris” Dr. Ford refers to is in the implicit proscription to God a design method and intention patterned after the only exemplar comprehensible by humans—our own. As the existence of mechanisms in nature that still remain beyond human comprehension does not necessarily imply divine design, an increasing scientific uncovering of principles underlying natural phenomena does not preclude divine design. For example, as illuminating as is the discovery of self-organization in nature, it neither ‘explains’ the presence of life, nor does it exclude a divine design(er). That is, self-organization in nature, being an emergent phenomenon (arising as a natural outcome of the dynamics among perceptually separable components) seems at first glance to be a good first step towards an ‘explanatory model’ for how we see living things self-organize and self-maintain. But, unless we are prepared to claim that all things that self-organize are living (including algorithmically derived models like cellular automata), then we arrive at an impasse that our principle of self-organization still fails to account for an additional ‘something’ in living things. The impasse is not that self-organization is wrong as such, but that we are trying to force a toy model car--in our excitement from understanding the function of the toy wheel--to explain how a
V12 Jaguar works. Or the nature of the elephant from experience with its tail.
25 THE MICROSCOPE • Vol. 61:1, pp 25–34 (2013) Debunking the Myth of Intelligent Design C R I T I C A L FOCUS Brian J. Ford If there were such a thing as ...
Best wishes
Brian J Ford
----- Original Message -----
From: Siegfried Bleher<mailto:sbl...@msn.com>
To:
Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 2:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Dear Professor Puri,
Maybe the “height of hubris” Dr. Ford refers to is in the implicit proscription to God a design method and intention patterned after the only exemplar comprehensible by humans—our own. As the existence of mechanisms in nature that still remain beyond human comprehension does not necessarily imply divine design, an increasing scientific uncovering of principles underlying natural phenomena does not preclude divine design. For example, as illuminating as is the discovery of self-organization in nature, it neither ‘explains’ the presence of life, nor does it exclude a divine design(er). That is, self-organization in nature, being an emergent phenomenon (arising as a natural outcome of the dynamics among perceptually separable components) seems at first glance to be a good first step towards an ‘explanatory model’ for how we see living things self-organize and self-maintain. But, unless we are prepared to claim that all things that self-organize are living (including algorithmically derived models like cellular automata), then we arrive at an impasse that our principle of self-organization still fails to account for an additional ‘something’ in living things. The impasse is not that self-organization is wrong as such, but that we are trying to force a toy model car--in our excitement from understanding the function of the toy wheel--to explain how a
________________________________
From: Prof. Brian J Ford
<bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk<mailto:bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk>>
To:
Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: fis <f...@listas.unizar.es<mailto:f...@listas.unizar.es>>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 10:42 AM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
The extraordinary hyperbole surrounding theoretical physics and cosmology is disproportionate in comparison with sciences with which people should be familiar; I have addressed this in a shortly published article (attached, and in confidence).
There are strong resonances with the mythical world of Jonathan Swift in all this.
On the safety of nuclear explosions, although the atomic bomb's capacity for destruction was less than some had predicted, bear in mind (as I have discussed in a recent book) that the Little Boy bomb dropped on Hiroshima contained 59 kg U235, of which only 600 mg was released as thermal energy. Had it all been converted, as some were anticipating, it would have been 100,000 times as powerful.
Best wishes
Brian J Ford
Cambridge UK
----- Original Message -----
To:
Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
My apologies if I have offended anyone. It's just sometimes I think that I am really tired of everything.
(Especially the recent US election.)
Thank you again.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
Puri Maharaja, Ph.D."
<Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
Date: Mon, January 09, 2017 6:25 am
To:
"Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>"
<Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>>
Thank you, Eric for your intelligent if brutal honesty.
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE – of Spiritual Culture & Science
--
----------------------------
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives http://bviscs.org/reports
Science and Scientist - 2016
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue:
http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
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http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
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http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Ved€ntic view:
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Science and Scientist - 2016
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue:
http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?:
http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
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Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Science and Scientist - 2016
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue:
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés:
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VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Jan 22, 2017, 8:28:36 AM1/22/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Prof. Peter Nykos,
You wrote:
"The fantastically complicated cells in life as we know it could have been produced in a laboratory by intelligent beings whose bodies were made up of less complicated cells. And those other beings could have been produced by purely natural processes of the sort that your philosophy forces you to believe in"
The fact that more complicated cells in life could have been produced in lab by intelligent beings, having less complicated cells, itself establishes that such intelligent beings possess higher design capability and intelligence despite having less complicated cells. Higher design and intelligence capability being an outcome of consciousness. A programmer having conscious mind may produce a program for a computer, having super intelligence but it is unconscious and its intelligence is an incorporated one from a conscious system of the programmer.Only from a conscious system intelligence can self-emerge. Then natural process is a misnomer. hiding our ignorance of the conscious system propelling intelligence in the physical process.If it could have been possible to create intelligence/design in the so-called natural physical process, why complicated or even simple cells don't come on their own in lab without the intervention of some scientists having conscious intelligent system?
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 7:41 PM, NYIKOS, PETER <nyi...@math.sc.edu> wrote:
Xavier William, you are distorting what Dr. Puri wrote. He is only asking you to seriously consider the possibility of a creator/designer.
As I put it facetiously a few minutes ago on Amazon.com to one of the many people who have similarly distorted similar things that I have said,
`Have you caught on yet to the fact that "agnostic" is not necessarily a weasel word for "atheist" nor a weasel word for "theist"?'
Please also consider that "creator" could also mean what people mean when they talk about human "creativity." The fantastically complicated cells in life as we know it could have been produced in a laboratory by intelligent beings whose bodies were made up of less complicated cells. And those other beings could have been produced by purely natural processes of the sort that your philosophy forces you to believe in.
Or they could have been produced by a supernatural creator. See my facetious comment above again.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos/
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com [online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Xavier William [vare...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 10:01 PM
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Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Dear Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D,According to your argument complex structures such as cells cannot come into being without a creator. Here the keyword is complex. Most adjectives we use are subjective and do not have any absolute meaning. Thus the word hot or cold are subjective/relative and can vary for the same person. Thus if you dip your left hand in cold water and your right hand in warm water and then dip both together in ordinary water, the left hand feels that the water is warm while the right hand feels it is is cold. Similarly the word beautiful depends on the beholder and varies from person to person. It is the same with the word complex. It is only from our point of view that a cell is more complex than an element. In absolute terms both are equally complex and it is as difficult for an element or atom to come into existence as it is for a complex polymer or cell to come into existence. I do not know what the most elementary of fundamental particle is. In the beginning they thought that the atom is the most fundamental particle and that it could not be divided further. But now we have found that there are protons, neutrons, electrons, positrons and a horde of subatomic particles. What is more if your argument is valid then the smallest and most fundamental particle - if there is such a fundamental particle - would have to be created from nothing. Now, which is more difficult, to make the fundamental particle from nothing or to make complicated cells from existing elements?Your argument that for a complex being such as the cell cannot come into being without a creator is self-contradictory. If the cell is complex the creator who created it must be even more complex. Thus for making a complex computer the computer maker has to be more sophisticated and complex than than the computer . When you say that there must be a creator for complex cell, then that creator must be even more complex than the cell and that creator must have existed before the creation. Now comes the million or trillion dollar question: how did the complex creator come into being? We do not know! It is the same answer that should be given to your question as to how the complex cells came into being. What is more if the creator can exist on his own without another creator, why cant creation exist of its own without a creator?One of the most fundamental laws of nature is the law of gravity according to which two bodies attract each other with a force proportional to their masses ... etc. If we ask the question why do bodies attract each other in accordance with this law of gravity, there may not be an answer. Even if there were an answer which I am sure we will find in the near future we can again ask why it is so. So there are an infinite number of possible questions and we will reach a point when we have no answers. We would then have to answer "We do not know." It is this answer we have to your question as to how complex cells came into being or other more fundamental questions. There are more questions without answers than questions with answers and it is best to leave such questions alone without answers until and unless we have the right answer with EVIDENCE. All other answers without evidence are mere speculations and your speculation is as good as mine even if contradictory. So dont jump to conclusions unless you are absolutely certain of the answers and the evidences to back them up with.Even if we assume that a god-creator created everything, then comes the question as to exactly what or who that creator god is. There were and are millions of such creator gods worshiped from the beginning of time all over the world from jungles to cities and many of whom have become obsolete and are no more worshiped such as the gods of ancient Greece and Rome. Without identifying the exact creator-god. whom do we honor and worship as the creator? Some of these gods or their followers say that if we worship the wrong god it is blasphemy which is worse than not worshiping any god. So my dear Bakthi Vedanta unless you are absolutely certain about the real creator-god, it is better not to worship any god as we atheists do than to worship the wrong god which is certain to land you in hell or worse.
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NYIKOS, PETER
Jan 22, 2017, 8:28:36 AM1/22/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Murthy, you are just swallowing uncritically the myths that "Myth Buster" is perpetrating. One is that the religions that talk about devotees of other religions going to hell are more lenient with atheists. During the Afghanistan-Soviet war, the Muslim fighters looked upon the atheistic Soviet soldiers as little better than animals and worse than the "People of the Book" -- Christians and Jews.
The other myth is that membership in a different religion is automatic grounds for sending to hell. The Roman Catholic religion has not taught that, at least not in the last two centuries, and with this new Pope, is making that fact more and more widely known. CS Lewis, whom innumerable Christians consider to be the best spokesman for Christianity of the 20th century, also fought against this second myth where the basic tenets of Christianity are concerned.
"Myth Buster" is simply basing his myths on his unshakable conviction that he KNOWS that there is no heaven and no life after death.
________________________________________
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [online_sa...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of M. R. N. Murthy [m...@mbu.iisc.ernet.in]
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 9:52 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
20 January 2017
BMP
Jan 23, 2017, 3:41:38 PM1/23/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
On Friday, January 20, 2017 Whit Blauvelt wrote:
"Could it be we need both? Not sense _or_ reason, but sense and reason
thoroughly infused together. Could their separation, rather than the triumph
of either over the other, be the root problem we must resolve?"
thoroughly infused together. Could their separation, rather than the triumph
of either over the other, be the root problem we must resolve?"
Reply
Don't you think it is rather naive to believe that that the senses could ever be in fact separate from reason. The senses determine the immediate content or being of consciousness. The only information the senses provide to reason is that 'it is.' The judgement 'It is a cow," for instance, contains two moments. The first is the sense intuition 'It is.' The word "it' refers to that which is indeterminate. Everything is an it. So to say 'it' really tells us absolutely nothing because everything is an 'it.' Thus we can call it an indeterminate indexical. On the other hand, 'cow' is a very specific determination of the 'it.' If the 'it' is an indeterminate index like the similar term 'that" then the determination or judgement of 'what' the 'it' or 'that' is represents what we call the understanding of 'it.'
So here we have the integration of mind with senses which are essential to each other if we are to come to any rational comprehension at all. Judgement or understanding is also called intelligence. The senses are instrumental in providing the indeterminate material (the 'it' or 'that') for judgments to be made. Beyond judgments there is the rational faculty or reason that seeks to further determine if the judgments are true or not. This is the activity called proving, or proof - of establishing truth.
So they are all necessary as elements or moments of sense certainty that are employed together when we intuit something either externally with the senses or internally with thought.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
From: Whit Blauvelt <wh...@csmind.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
Deepak Chopra
Jan 23, 2017, 3:41:38 PM1/23/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
The Big Bang is a human construct every time you think about it
The key is knowledge to dive into the source of thought
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Radheshyam Das <radhesh...@pamho.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 10:05:28 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 10:05:28 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
BMP
Jan 23, 2017, 3:41:38 PM1/23/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
On Jan 19 in his message
to our group Prof. Brain Ford wrote::
“God did not design
humans; if so, he would be an idiot:”
Besides being a very imprudent remark, a Designer
God is not the issue if we consider that what we means by God is that the very
nature of the Absolute is sentient substance, i.e. immanently and transcendentally
rational or intelligent being. Of course the concept of design may imply that
there is a passively existing matter that has to be shaped by an agent external
to inanimate matter. However ‘design’ as a verb is not the only way in which
the word may be used. It may also be used as a noun.
One may find a particular design or pattern in
nature that is intrinsic, such as a Mandelbrot set to describe irregular
coastlines. That such a pattern exists does not imply the work of a designer. A
snowflake has an an often beautiful hexagonal design that is amazingly
symmetrical and is explained as arising from the molecular structure of water
molecules. Sunflowers and nautilus shells exhibit the same intricate symmetry as
the Fibonacci sequence, a sequence in which starting from two ones each
successive integer is produced by adding together the two previous integers. The
Golden ration is another naturally occurring pattern that finds its place
throughout Nature. Honeycombs, spider webs, and so on are all designs that
seem inherent to the behavior of species of each particular creature. All this
does not imply an external agency designing each and every detail of an
inanimate material world. Such a thought arises only if one already holds the
metaphysical belief of materialism. Even so it does provoke the idea that there
is something more than simply inert matter at work in Nature. That ‘something
more’ is Man’s own intrinsic reason that finds itself in the world that
immediately appears before it.
It is only the naivete of Man’s frail intelligence that
leads him/her to believe that an external Designer works upon an already given matter,
like a potter works on clay, to produce different designs in Nature. Yet it is
certainly more rational than the idea that insentient matter became rational just
to discover intelligible patterns in itself. [As one scientist put it: “a
physicist is just an atom’s way of knowing itself.”]
Philosophers of Nature and Natural Religion have understood
Nature differently – that itis but the exterior Being of a rational core or Essence
that together are comprehended as the content of the Absolute Idea or Form of
Spirit. Vedanta explains this
Absolute Spirit as Brahman in its universality, Paramatman in its particularity
and Bhagavan in its Divine individuality. Different interpretations of Vedanta have arrived at finite
perspectives of the Complete Whole Truth in its abstract universality (Brahman) of the keval advaita school of philosophy, in its particularity (Paramatman) in the Yoga school of
thought, and in its individuality (Bhagavan)
by the vaisnava schools of theism.Yet these are the triune irreducible and dynamic
moments of the organic Absolute Truth. The complete description of God forms a
science in itself and is mentioned here only in a preliminary way.
This Triplicity is not to be understood as composed of separate
or separable units. Each is dependent upon the other as a simultaneous or
synchronic and organic unity that cannot be grasped by fixed categories of
reified thoughts. As organic or living truth it manifests itself to itself in distinct
moments, differences, that are resolved and re-manifest - just as the moments of Time appear, dissapper
and reappear mimicking in external sequence the dynamic internal movement
of the Idea or Spirit in and for itself.
In Platonic terms: Time is just the moving image of Eternity (the Idea).
In his Phenomenology
of Spirit (1807) Hegel also commented on the apparently unusual conjunction
of the organs in the human body. In no uncertain terms he explained that it is
not the idiocy of a Creator but the frailty of human intelligence to recognize itself
in comprehending its own content, or world. Again, finite reason’s
comprehension of itself in the world is not to be foolishly understood as
creating its world. The contingencies of Nature such as elephants, giraffes,
clouds and trees are not the creation of reason which only seeks the
intelligible principles therein. Hegel states:
"Reason, essentially the Concept
[Comprehension], is meditative activity. When considered in its immediacy it is
thus sundered into itself and its opposite, an antithesis that expresses only
one moment of the original mediate activity. But when Reason is thus presented
in this way as its own self and its opposite, and is held fast in the entirely
separate moment of this asunderness, it is apprehended irrationally; and the
purer the moments of this asunderness, the cruder is the appearance of this
content which is either only for consciousness, or only ingenuously expressed
by it. The depth which Spirit brings forth from within-but only as far as its
content is only a representation in consciousness where it lets it remain-and
the ignorance of this consciousness about what is actually going on, are the
same conjunction of the high and the low which, in the living being, Nature naively
expresses when it combines the organ of its highest fulfillment, the organ of
generation, with the organ of urination. The infinite judgement, would be the
fulfillment of life that comprehends itself; the consciousness of the infinite
judgement that remains at the level of representation behaves as
urination." [Hegel, Phen of Spirit, Miller trans modified, para 346]
This will be difficult to understand if one is not
familiar with the dynamic movement that characterizes the self-conscious Truth
or life of the Absolute Idea that is Spirit. Basically he is stating what was
explained above. So the disjunction that appears to exist in Nature is but the
disjunction that lies within Reason that fails to properly understand itself. In
other words, there are reasons for everything, even though we may not know the
details thereof. This in turn means that the fetus in its embryological
development to maturity follows a necessary path in which the outcome is
naturally produced. This may not be accessible to finite human comprehension
but that does not hinder its intelligent behavior, just as digestion is not influenced by our
knowledge or ignorance of how it occurs.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 5:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
BMP
Jan 23, 2017, 3:41:38 PM1/23/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Xavier William wrote:
"According to your argument complex structures such as cells cannot come into being without a creator."
Reply
Where did I make that claim? As explained in my message to Dr Brian Ford, that is a totally unnecessary and false claim if one understands the Absolute itself as sentient substance.
Xavior William also wrote:
"dont jump to conclusions unless you are absolutely certain of the answers and the evidences to back them up with."
Reply
Equally true is that one should not make presumptions that are not supported by actual quoted evidence or understanding the correct context in which statements are made. In science empirical evidence is crucial. Therefore we present the scientifically observed principle that life comes from life as concrete evidence against the purely metaphysical project of materialism that has no evidence to support it.
If life is a fundamental principle of Nature then it is not unreasonable to conclude that life is a primeval concept that finds its support in theistic philosophy that holds Supreme Life as the origin of all other life. The alternative idea faces what is known as the hard problem of explaining how life came from non-living matter. Again the evidence is against this idea, while evidence shows that matter does come from life in every blade of grass, every hair on your head is proof that matter can be produced by life. What's the problem?
When the universe or world is understood as the antithetical content of Reason in its immediacy, it can be all be understood as an objective concept or "petrified intelligence" as Schelling called it. Which is easier to understand - that a rock is a concept of Reason or that a rock produces a rational concept of itself. If you choose the latter, then you are burdened with the task of providing at least some type of proof or rationale. Yet why go through all of that if it is just a possible perspective while its much more logical opposite may be the actual truth.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Deepak Chopra
Jan 23, 2017, 3:41:38 PM1/23/17
to Radheshyam Das, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
For anyone interested
The Ultimate Free Lunch
2013 Costa Del Mar Road
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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<DID WE COME FROM BRANCHES TO BENCHES.pdf>
b...@cosmic-mindreach.com
Jan 23, 2017, 3:41:38 PM1/23/17
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On Sunday, January 22, 2017 11:53 AM, "b...@cosmic-mindreach.com" <b...@cosmic-mindreach.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,There is a fundamental problem when trying to reconcile science with traditional religion. Science is objective. It deals with observed events out there in the public domain except when it tries to extrapolate its reach to explain the whole cosmos. Then it invents fantasies such as the Big Bang, infinitesimal strings, space-time continuums, dark matter and such. These are things that can never be observed in phenomenal experience of any kind. Traditional religion on the other hand deals with the subjective realm of private experience. It deals with intuitive perceptions that while essentially private attempt to find translation into language based belief systems in the public domain. Both perspectives are deficient universal world views despite their respective benefits.A fundamental fact has been overlooked. All we can EVER know are active interface processes between a universal Inside and a universal Outside, neither of which can be known to the exclusion of the other. For example the objective world that we perceive out there is really a subjective virtual creation of our nervous system from the unique perspective of each of us. The cosmic order that both science and religion strive to understand thus depends entirely on active interface processes and all possible structural varieties of how they mutually interrelate.This necessarily requires that the whole cosmic order must consist of a nested hierarchy of discrete Systems depending on the number of active interfaces involved in each level of the hierarchy such that we can speak of System 1, System 2, System 3, System 4 and so on. System 1 then represents the whole cosmic order and it transcends and subsumes all the higher Systems. In this regard God is another word for the Whole Cosmic Order. It is the universal source of All Being as a Supreme Active Interface. Although it cannot be known in space as time as a physical thing it is accessible in human experience in rare circumstances through the agency of the subsumed perspective of System 2 which also transcends and subsumes physical events. If there was only God there could be no separate phenomena in experience. In fact there could be No God. So there is a fundamental Rift in Universal Wholeness which distinguishes Universal Being from Particular Beings. We can only identify Particular things in relation to a Universal kind. Lassie is a Dog. Peter is a Human. snakes are Reptiles. All are Animals. Roses are Plants. And so on.Physical things that consist of atoms derive from System 3. The hydrogen atom is primary. It always consists of a photon energy shell, an electron in a specific orbital shell, and a central proton. Hydrogen atoms are fused in the centers of suns within galaxies of suns to create helium and the heavier elements. This creative endeavor introduces a Regenerative Mode in addition to the Expressive Mode in fusion. The neutron is essentially a primary hydrogen atom collapsed to the size of a proton. It is essential to hold the nucleons together. The only other long lived particle is the neutrino which is a product of neutron decay. The whole physical universe out there is made of atoms accordingly. But science in its effort to seek out Universal Wholeness keeps smashing atoms into extremely short lived bits to get to the Universal Inside and confirm that the whole universe began in a Big Bang some 14 million years ago from absolutely NOTHING. The enterprise fails because they can only get down to a realization that something hypothetical called quarks are confined within and can never be known as separate physical things in their own right.System 4 concerns biological evolution nested within the physical universe wherever conditions allow. We have climbed up through the four levels from Plants (Including protists) that explored static Forms of the cell to Invertebrates that explored Routines of sensory response, to Vertebrates that explored conscious Knowledge of behavior, to Humans with a capacity for creative Ideas extended in space and time. Through the agency of language the human mind can reach to the ends of space and time. However this introduces a timeless intuitive right brain capacity to wonder about the whole cosmic order from which all science derives, albeit formulated in left brain language. This sense of wordless intuitive right brain wonder can also bring us to a private holistic and eternal realization of God. We are at the apex and subsume the whole of biological evolution on the planet for which we must assume responsibility.The nested System of representing the cosmic order is not itself dependent on language. It is an intuitive bridge to the left hemisphere as a means of more meaningfully integrating our sensory perceptions from which all language drives. As strange as it sounds the cosmic order as introduced on my website was demonstrated in a series of profound cosmic experiences that were explicitly orchestrated by God. By being honest about the source of this work I do not expect anyone to just believe me. Indeed the cosmic order cannot be a belief system because it must find direct confirmation in sensory experience to bring our three brains to a sustainable balance. The cosmic order can only be realized through an unconditioned personal quest.There are many related articles freely available on my website at www.cosmic-mindreach.com.
Cosmic Order Home Page
By Robert CampbellProfound cosmic insights revealed the cosmic order as it relates to the physical, biological and social sciences...
Whit Blauvelt
Jan 24, 2017, 11:22:52 PM1/24/17
to 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.
On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 08:22:35PM +0000, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2017 Whit Blauvelt wrote:
>
> "Could it be we need both? Not sense _or_ reason, but sense and reason
> thoroughly infused together. Could their separation, rather than the triumph
> of either over the other, be the root problem we must resolve?"
>
> Dr. Bakti Madhav Puri replied:
> On Friday, January 20, 2017 Whit Blauvelt wrote:
>
> "Could it be we need both? Not sense _or_ reason, but sense and reason
> thoroughly infused together. Could their separation, rather than the triumph
> of either over the other, be the root problem we must resolve?"
>
> Don't you think it is rather naive to believe that that the senses could ever
> be in fact separate from reason. The senses determine the immediate content or
> being of consciousness. The only information the senses provide to reason is
> that 'it is.'
all had the experience of that separation, haven't we? We can be walking yet
lost in thought, not noticing much of what is around us. Or we can be
walking and entirely enveloped in our senses, so awed by the beauty of some
part of the world that thought drops away. Then again, we can be like the
poet Wordsworth, walking, totally enveloped in the landscape while having
rich thoughts in which the metaphors suggested by the landscape are
integral.
There may be some forms of reasoning which are best done with senses
attenuated and ignored; similarly there may be some forms of sensory
attending which are best done with the mind quiet. In each of these the
senses and reason are kept distant -- not infinitely so, but relatively
apart. The may be other forms of reasoning and sensing best accomplished
where the two are fully conjoined and heightened. The world closely attended
can inspire or evoke fresh thoughts; reason closely followed can lead our
attention to new aspects of the sensed world.
Best,
Whit
Diego Lucio Rapoport
Jan 24, 2017, 11:22:52 PM1/24/17
to Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, squ...@gotsky.com, Jeremy Dunning-Davies, fis, Brian J Ford, con...@howgravityworks.org
Dear Andrew and Alexander
Thank you dearly for your most striking comment that the transition of non-linear thermodynamical systems from exploding entropy to a reorganization of the systemAllow me to suggest however, that rather than a nested hierarchy (say a Matrushka) as already suggested by Freeman, which is an iterated dual logophysics,
maps of vision and somatosensory systems have the Klein Bottle topology, as is also the case of genomes.
I look forward to study your works and return to you. By the way, this non-dual logophysics which integrates Outside and Inside -as is the Klein Bottle- seems to be the natural one regarding the issue whether
Diego Rapoport
PS Does the dimensional reduction of the olfactory phenomenology to the single radial "spherical" dimension at the olfactory bulb
indicates a projective geometry with antipodal points identified, as retaken by Freeman from earlier research?
Would that be indeed the case, then finite sections of the bulb would be Mobius strips :-) (!!)
indicates a projective geometry with antipodal points identified, as retaken by Freeman from earlier research?
Would that be indeed the case, then finite sections of the bulb would be Mobius strips :-) (!!)
2017-01-24 7:24 GMT-03:00 Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science <andrew.fi...@bm-science.com>:
Dear All,
In relation to the below mentioned “any non-linear thermodynamical system actually increases to develop a singularity which is followed
by the reorganization of the system through negative entropy, following the destruction of the system in its previous form” we would like to comment that exactly the same principle is observed in the nested hierarchy of the brain electromagnetic field that supports the nested hierarchy of mentality and consciousness in particular (for a complete description and discussion, please see http://www.bm-science.com/team/art76.pdf)
Greetings,
Andrew and Alexander
From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Diego Lucio Rapoport
Sent: Monday, 23 January, 2017 05:28
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com; squ...@gotsky.com; Jeremy Dunning-Davies
Cc: fis; bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk; con...@howgravityworks.org
Subject: Re: [Fis] [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Dear Colleagues
Returning to the issue discussed by Dr Rich Norman of the validity of the second law of thermodynamics in relation to biology where negative entropy drives
systems to self-organize, I would like to comment that any non-linear thermodynamical system actually increases to develop a singularity which is followed
by the reorganization of the system through negative entropy, following the destruction of the system in its previous form.
This is related to the non-orientability -say Mobius strip- of the compactified complex number system as discussed in
https://www.academia.edu/30485983/Klein_Bottle_Logophysics_Self-reference_Heterarchies_Genomic_Topologies_Harmonics_and_Evolution._Part_I_Morphomechanics_Space_and_Time_in_Biology_and_Physics_Cognition_Non-Linearity_and_the_Structure_of_Uncertaintyand the implications to chemistry, biology, cognition, metamathematics, genomics and evolution are discussed in
https://www.academia.edu/30546256/Klein_Bottle_Logophysics_Self-reference_Heterarchies_Genomic_Topologies_Harmonics_and_Evolution._Part_II_Non-orientability_Cognition_Chemical_Topology_and_Eversions_in_Nature
https://www.academia.edu/30518156/Klein_Bottle_Logophysics_Self-reference_Heterarchies_Genomic_Topologies_Harmonics_and_Evolution._Part_III_The_Klein_Bottle_Logic_of_Genomics_and_its_Dynamics_Quantum_Information_Complexity_and_Palindromic_Repeats_in_EvolutionBest regards
Diego Rapoport
w). Thank you for starting this topic, Dr. Ford. Your piece is correct by my estimation, and fits quite exactly with many statements in our new book. [Are you familiar with Bechamp?…that chalk sir! You may request a paper which makes tangible use of physics within cell biology. Those were stunning images in your paper.] There is a great deal of this rot in physics and cosmology. Before I begin a new thread concerning causality, I must add my sad approval to the exhausted refrain below, which did not offend me in any way. The situation in my broken country and the world inspires such painful honesty. I will put a link to a paper concerning gravitation which is in keeping, added below the following comment by Eric Sabo, and then a possible explanation.
“At CERN and Fermilab, no two collisions are exactly the same.
Their efforts are a waste of time as any particles they create only last nanoseconds and then they "evaporate".
The really odd thing is not one physicist at those facilities ever ask "Where did they evaporate to?"...
(The only logical answer is, back to the Aether.) It's just a jobs program for physicists.
What's really odd is they pat themselves on the backs and hand out Nobel Prizes for their efforts.
I see the real benefit of those projects is that it's all good magnet R&D...... (For future Antimatter Containment)
. . . .Residing in the urban environment give me the impression that the stupid people have propagated out of control.
And, every one of them has the right to exist..... and vote!....... (There's no hope for Humanity.)”
You sir, are right! https://www.researchgate.net/publication/310845151_Practical_and_theoretical_assessment_of_relativistic_theory_v_2?ev=prf_pub
I have just completed a book detailing a great deal of this kind of thing. A LONG book, gentlemen! Science hype, and deception. Just look at all that overstatement and deception. Have you read the papers debunking LIGO? Here is our new book Beyond the Veil: Deception, truth and the hidden promise of science.
Here is a new thought for you:
Does the second law of thermodynamics imply by necessity the social turbulence we see all around us? The answer is no, entropy increase itself does not imply social discord as a necessary consequence. Biological life is itself an expression of negative entropy, an exporting of entropy in order to sustain itself and its organized processes. The biology should by multiplicative extension increase negative entropy through numerical increase.
I will speculate to explain the effects witnessed: The effect we see, the social horror then, I will hypothesize is a function of the lack of emergent intelligence from the new larger system. Instead of a healthy intra-connected single human system, as analogously in the case of a mat of bacteria relating to its cohabited environment, the connection between the microorganisms fostering a cooperative intelligence to emerge which guides proliferation and development, a function terminated with interrupted intra-connectivity, our race is set against itself, the single system broken apart, our unconscious connectivity in my estimation has been shut off: we compete at every turn, and our mental topography has removed the inner means to support the healthy effect! I believe, the paper linked below contains the answer. To have altered the aspects in this document, has changed my ‘luck.’ My entire world seems effortless and on track. I believe, the loss of identifications with the world and our fellow humans is the cause of the discord. Theoretically, as a mat of bacteria, we should operate in cooperative mutual adjustment with the other organisms which share our environment…I hypothesize: but for this.
Thank you for all this new thinking. The recent email from John Kineman was simply excellent. I will begin a thread later on related topics.
Thank you,
Rich Norman
Journal of Unconscious Psychology
On Jan 11, 2017, at 7:42 AM, Prof. Brian J Ford <bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The extraordinary hyperbole surrounding theoretical physics and cosmology is disproportionate in comparison with sciences with which people should be familiar; I have addressed this in a shortly published article (attached, and in confidence).
There are strong resonances with the mythical world of Jonathan Swift in all this.
On the safety of nuclear explosions, although the atomic bomb's capacity for destruction was less than some had predicted, bear in mind (as I have discussed in a recent book) that the Little Boy bomb dropped on Hiroshima contained 59 kg U235, of which only 600 mg was released as thermal energy. Had it all been converted, as some were anticipating, it would have been 100,000 times as powerful.
Best wishes
Brian J Ford
Cambridge UK
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
My apologies if I have offended anyone. It's just sometimes I think that I am really tired of everything.
(Especially the recent US election.)
Thank you again.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Date: Mon, January 09, 2017 6:25 am
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com"
<Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Thank you, Eric for your intelligent if brutal honesty.
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE – of Spiritual Culture & Science
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From: "contact@howgravityworks.org" <con...@howgravityworks.org>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
Good answer. What really disturbs me is the ability of the individual to construct a reality for themselves
that is based in no factual evidence at all. What's even more disturbing is the will of some to impose their
reality on others even though the imposer knows that the reality they are imposing is false.
An ignorant or illiterate can also create a false reality and impose it on others if they have a strong enough
personality and that is even more disturbing. Perhaps that is the true reason for Sharia Law to exist.
It would appear to be a unifying set of rules that unites and controls an otherwise barbaric and chaotic
mass of ignorant people that would be without discipline without it.
My reality is the universe is dynamical chaos that manages to fall within parameter. For example;
All Oak trees are Oaks yet, no two are ever the exactly same. No two Vidalia onions are exactly the same.
No two stars are exactly the same. At CERN and Fermilab, no two collisions are exactly the same.
Their efforts are a waste of time as any particles they create only last nanoseconds and then they "evaporate".
The really odd thing is not one physicist at those facilities ever ask "Where did they evaporate to?"...
(The only logical answer is, back to the Aether.) It's just a jobs program for physicists.
What's really odd is they pat themselves on the backs and hand out Nobel Prizes for their efforts.
I see the real benefit of those projects is that it's all good magnet R&D...... (For future Antimatter Containment)
We probably shouldn't be upset about anything. Sometimes I consider that I am the only entity in existence
and that everything and everyone in my reality is a construct for my amusement. (Or torture lately..... LOL)
(You can't enjoy the good times without a little bad.)
Residing in the urban environment give me the impression that the stupid people have propagated out of control.
And, every one of them has the right to exist..... and vote!....... (There's no hope for Humanity.)
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Date: Fri, January 06, 2017 9:18 am
To: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com>
On Jan 4 2017 contact@howgravityworks.org wrote:
> "The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
>I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some even are able to alter >others reality by their mere physical presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all >their realities would seem to be false.
REPLY
This seems to be as concise an assessment of the situation as any already presented.
It is reasonable to say that individuals may have different interpretations of reality, but in itself Reality is not simply a matter of being a human construct or there would be no meaning to 'error,' 'mistake,' 'illusion,' and so on. Indeed there would be no meaning to 'truth' as opposed to untruth.
Human consciousness is limited to its body. An individual is conscious o
nly to the limits of its skin or surface. One may see a tree, or a star, or a bat - but that same individual cannot know or be conscious of what it is like to be a bat, as one recent American philosopher, Thomas Nagel, famously announced in The Philosophical Review in October 1974.
A human being has direct consciousness of its body and of its thoughts, but beyond that it has only representations (signs), images, or reflections (on the mind's mirror) of the world outside its body. Human consciousness is therefore NOT the consciousness of trees, stars, bats, or anything else. It is conscious of other things beyond its
body, but not the consciousness of those things.
However, there is a consciousness of both individual human consciousness and the other things/persons of which an individual may be conscious. That universal consciousness is not only the consciousness of all Reality but also the consciousness of itself, i.e. it is self-consciousness in and for Itself. This universal self-consciousness is identical with itself as Reality, since Reality is the manifestation or expression of itself as real (being-for-other, or Otherness), while not losing its being-for-itself or self-consciousness as its ideality or Self-Concept. Here we find the true dynamic meaning of Advaita (non-duality), or the negation of dvaita (duality). Reality as the Otherness of Universal Self-consciousness is simultaneously Other (different from) yet identical (same as) universal Self consciousness being the manifest determinateness of what Self-consciousness is.
To strip Universal Self-consciousness of its Reality is to abstract consciousness from its concrete Truth as Self-consciousness of Itself. In other words, it is to end up with a one-sided mental abstraction from the concrete or whole truth. There are two mistakes here: 1. not only is Universal Self-consciousness abstracted from Its own Reality, but 2. Self-consciousness is naievly reduced to consciousness which lacks the integral unity essential to it (the Self or true Ego) - what Kant called the unity of apperception.
These mistakes are the result of relying on contingent irrational intuitions (instincts) without proper philosophical study or knowledge of the logical necessity that governs the internal rationality of all thought sequences or movement. Philosophers of Spirit have studied and reached rational conclusions on the nature of consciousness and its ground in Spirit. Those who ignore that body of knowledge are illiterate and can only be victimized by their own conditioned instincts. That is not how human knowledge or science advances.
When an image is reflected in a mirror, the image is not considered to be the result of glass and silver of the mirror somehow acting to create the image. The image has its orgin outside of the mirror and is made of completely different stuff. A tree reflected in a lake is not made of water. A radio playing back a broadcast it has received is not producing the broadcast from itself. Each of these examples provide metaphors for how to understand the difference between a reality outside of human consciousness can be reflected within an individual's consciousness without being the product of that consciousness.
At the same time Reality is not fixed in stone; it is not an inert slab or impersonal substance. It does not exist only as a reflection within human consciousness, nor as a product of human consciousness. Such ideas do not pass the examination of rational thought. The idea that Reality is Self-conscious Thinking Being in and for itself [Spirit/God] does not suffer that defect. An individual is a finite moment or instantiation of Living Reality that reflects that Reality immanently within its infinitesimal self and can interpret or misinterpret it according to the extent of its knowledge and wisdom.
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE – of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Original message appears in Sadhu sanga digest for Jan 3 - 4
contact (con...@howgravityworks.org) Jan 4
"The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)
I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some even are able to alter others reality by their mere physical presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all their realities would seem to be false.
Being an electrical contractor my entire working life, I have observed the following scenario; I am working in a large commercial building with a thousand people sitting in cubicles with phones and computers.
There's everyone from CEO to janitor working there also.
Suddenly, "Boom" the electricity for the entire building goes out.
Until I can rush to the main distribution switchgear and restore power, they all become totally useless.
If the power went out permanently, they would all be sitting around candles chanting "Nam myoho renge kyo".
It's actually a frightening scenario to me. Some say, "Who would want to live without electricity."
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[Mensaje recortado]
con...@howgravityworks.org
Jan 24, 2017, 11:22:52 PM1/24/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
The idea that one guy created everything is a little hard to swallow if one takes an objective viewpoint for
a very short time. The next question would be; who created him?
If he does exist, it must be lonely at the top.
Many past cultures believed in a group of beings. I'm going with the subtle telepathic connection
between followers of any given belief system.
As for the Big Bang, I will go for localized Big Bangs. (Expansion, contraction, Bang, Expansion, etc.)
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Mon, January 23, 2017 2:27 pm
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com"
<Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
On Jan 19 in his message to our group Prof. Brain Ford wrote::
This will be difficult to understand if one is not familiar with the dynamic movement that characterizes the self-conscious Truth or life of the Absolute Idea that is Spirit. Basically he is stating what was explained above. So the disjunction that appears to exist in Nature is but the disjunction that lies within Reason that fails to properly understand itself. In other words, there are reasons for everything, even though we may not know the details thereof. This in turn means that the fetus in its embryological development to maturity follows a necessary path in which the outcome is naturally produced. This may not be accessible to finite human comprehension but that does not hinder its intelligent behavior, just as digestion is not influenced by our knowledge or ignorance of how it occurs.
Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Best wishesBrian J Ford
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li...@fudan.edu.cn
Jan 24, 2017, 11:22:52 PM1/24/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
I cannot agree with you more about this. In my opinion, the big bang is only a theoretic construct but not a reality. As a theory it may explain many phenomena but not all.
However, the reason why I see the big bang is not a reality is different from others. For me, if the system contains everything then it is not possible to describe it because any properties that you can describe are the relations between the system and other systems and now there is no other systems since it contains all already.
The big bang is a theory that tries to describe the dynamics of a system (Universe) that contains everything. Based on the argument above, there is no dynamics (no time) about the universe that contains everything, in the first place.
Actually, it is similar to the situation of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation where someone tries to describe dynamics of the whole universe and he finds time disappears.
Best
Papers: http://www.neuroquantology.com/index.php/journal/article/view/927
Department of Macromolecular Science
Fudan University, Shanghai 200433
CHINA
Phone: 86-21-65642125
Email: li...@fudan.edu.cn
-----原始邮件-----
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发送时间:2017-01-22 23:38:15 (星期日)
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主题: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
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Diego Lucio Rapoport
Jan 24, 2017, 11:22:52 PM1/24/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, squ...@gotsky.com, Jeremy Dunning-Davies, fis, bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk, con...@howgravityworks.org
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
Good answer. What really disturbs me is the ability of the individual to construct a reality for themselvesthat is based in no factual evidence at all. What's even more disturbing is the will of some to impose theirreality on others even though the imposer knows that the reality they are imposing is false.An ignorant or illiterate can also create a false reality and impose it on others if they have a strong enoughpersonality and that is even more disturbing. Perhaps that is the true reason for Sharia Law to exist.It would appear to be a unifying set of rules that unites and controls an otherwise barbaric and chaoticmass of ignorant people that would be without discipline without it.My reality is the universe is dynamical chaos that manages to fall within parameter. For example;All Oak trees are Oaks yet, no two are ever the exactly same. No two Vidalia onions are exactly the same.No two stars are exactly the same. At CERN and Fermilab, no two collisions are exactly the same.Their efforts are a waste of time as any particles they create only last nanoseconds and then they "evaporate".The really odd thing is not one physicist at those facilities ever ask "Where did they evaporate to?"...(The only logical answer is, back to the Aether.) It's just a jobs program for physicists.What's really odd is they pat themselves on the backs and hand out Nobel Prizes for their efforts.I see the real benefit of those projects is that it's all good magnet R&D...... (For future Antimatter Containment)We probably shouldn't be upset about anything. Sometimes I consider that I am the only entity in existenceand that everything and everyone in my reality is a construct for my amusement. (Or torture lately..... LOL)(You can't enjoy the good times without a little bad.)Residing in the urban environment give me the impression that the stupid people have propagated out of control.And, every one of them has the right to exist..... and vote!....... (There's no hope for Humanity.)
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The False Elephant and the False Ego
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M.
Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Date: Fri, January 06, 2017 9:18 am
To: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com>
On Jan 4 2017 contact@howgravityworks.org wrote:> "The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)>I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some even are able to alter >others reality by their mere physical presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all >their realities would seem to be false.
REPLYThis seems to be as concise an assessment of the situation as any already presented.It is reasonable to say that individuals may have different interpretations of reality, but in itself Reality is not simply a matter of being a human construct or there would be no meaning to 'error,' 'mistake,' 'illusion,' and so on. Indeed there would be no meaning to 'truth' as opposed to untruth.Human consciousness is limited to its body. An individual is conscious only to the limits of its skin or surface. One may see a tree, or a star, or a bat - but that same individual cannot know or be conscious of what it is like to be a bat, as one recent American philosopher, Thomas Nagel, famously announced in The Philosophical Review in October 1974.A human being has direct consciousness of its body and of its thoughts, but beyond that it has only representations (signs), images, or reflections (on the mind's mirror) of the world outside its body. Human consciousness is therefore NOT the consciousness of trees, stars, bats, or anything else. It is conscious of other things beyond itsbody, but not the consciousness of those things.However, there is a consciousness of both individual human consciousness and the other things/persons of which an individual may be conscious. That universal consciousness is not only the consciousness of all Reality but also the consciousness of itself, i.e. it is self-consciousness in and for Itself. This universal self-consciousness is identical with itself as Reality, since Reality is the manifestation or expression of itself as real (being-for-other, or Otherness), while not losing its being-for-itself or self-consciousness as its ideality or Self-Concept. Here we find the true dynamic meaning of Advaita (non-duality), or the negation of dvaita (duality). Reality as the Otherness of Universal Self-consciousness is simultaneously Other (different from) yet identical (same as) universal Self consciousness being the manifest determinateness of what Self-consciousness is.To strip Universal Self-consciousness of its Reality is to abstract consciousness from its concrete Truth as Self-consciousness of Itself. In other words, it is to end up with a one-sided mental abstraction from the concrete or whole truth. There are two mistakes here: 1. not only is Universal Self-consciousness abstracted from Its own Reality, but 2. Self-consciousness is naievly reduced to consciousness which lacks the integral unity essential to it (the Self or true Ego) - what Kant called the unity of apperception.These mistakes are the result of relying on contingent irrational intuitions (instincts) without proper philosophical study or knowledge of the logical necessity that governs the internal rationality of all thought sequences or movement. Philosophers of Spirit have studied and reached rational conclusions on the nature of consciousness and its ground in Spirit. Those who ignore that body of knowledge are illiterate and can only be victimized by their own conditioned instincts. That is not how human knowledge or science advances.When an image is reflected in a mirror, the image is not considered to be the result of glass and silver of the mirror somehow acting to create the image. The image has its orgin outside of the mirror and is made of completely different stuff. A tree reflected in a lake is not made of water. A radio playing back a broadcast it has received is not producing the broadcast from itself. Each of these examples provide metaphors for how to understand the difference between a reality outside of human consciousness can be reflected within an individual's consciousness without being the product of that consciousness.At the same time Reality is not fixed in stone; it is not an inert slab or impersonal substance. It does not exist only as a reflection within human consciousness, nor as a product of human consciousness. Such ideas do not pass the examination of rational thought. The idea that Reality is Self-conscious Thinking Being in and for itself [Spirit/God] does not suffer that defect. An individual is a finite moment or instantiation of Living Reality that reflects that Reality immanently within its infinitesimal self and can interpret or misinterpret it according to the extent of its knowledge and wisdom.Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph.D.
Visit us on Facebook========================Original message appears in Sadhu sanga digest for Jan 3 - 4contact (con...@howgravityworks.org) Jan 4"The reality we accept is a human construct.”(Deepak Chopra)I have observed that people do indeed create their own reality. Some even are able to alter others reality by their mere physical presence. The problem I have with all of it is, all their realities would seem to be false.Being an electrical contractor my entire working life, I have observed the following scenario; I am working in a large commercial building with a thousand people sitting in cubicles with phones and computers.There's everyone from CEO to janitor working there also.Suddenly, "Boom" the electricity for the entire building goes out.Until I can rush to the main distribution switchgear and restore power, they all become totally useless.If the power went out permanently, they would all be sitting around candles chanting "Nam myoho renge kyo".It's actually a frightening scenario to me. Some say, "Who would want to live without electricity."
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...
[Mensaje recortado]
VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Jan 26, 2017, 5:20:21 AM1/26/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
He is not a "'guy" like you and me. A "guy' will think in terms of a "guy" only. We can't think in terms of HIM. The Issue of "Who created HIM?" is irrelevant since HE neither ever takes birth nor dies due to HIS being beyond space/time. Only those beings take birth and die which are within the ambit of space and time.
Vinod SehgalTo unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
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Oliver Manuel
Jan 26, 2017, 5:20:21 AM1/26/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Here is Kuroda's autobiography:
The mystery of conscious awareness and creative insight deepens on realizing the whole universe is
1. Composed of two forms of one fundamental particle.
- Compacted electron-proton pairs - Neutrons
- Expanded electron-proton pairs - Hydrogen atoms
2. Alive because these two forms are interchangeable.
- Neutrons become interstellar H-atoms as the universe expands
- Interstellar H-atoms will become neutrons as the universe collapses
With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Oliver Manuel <omat...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Professor Li,The concept of a single "Big Bang" arose from a logical error in Weizsacker's definition of "nuclear binding energy."That error is explained in this tribute to my research mentor, Paul Kazuo Kuroda, who recognized the mistake after Nobel Laureate F. W. Aston's lecture at the Imperial University of Tokyo on 13 June 1936:Weizsacker's error obscured neutron repulsion, the source of energy that causes the universe to expand as compacted neutrons become interstellar hydrogen atoms - followed by gravitational collapse and a decrease in entropy when neutrons have decayed away and the universe is controlled by the weak gravitational attractive force between H-atoms.I.e., one cosmic breath is ~20 Ga.Read Kuroda's autobiography or ask me if you have questions about this.With kind regards,Oliver K. Manuel
I cannot agree with you more about this. In my opinion, the big bang is only a theoretic construct but not a reality. As a theory it may explain many phenomena but not all.However, the reason why I see the big bang is not a reality is different from others. For me, if the system contains everything then it is not possible to describe it because any properties that you can describe are the relations between the system and other systems and now there is no other systems since it contains all already.The big bang is a theory that tries to describe the dynamics of a system (Universe) that contains everything. Based on the argument above, there is no dynamics (no time) about the universe that contains everything, in the first place.Actually, it is similar to the situation of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation where someone tries to describe dynamics of the whole universe and he finds time disappears.BestDr Jianfeng Li
Papers: http://www.neuroquantology.com/index.php/journal/article/view/927
Department of Macromolecular Science
Fudan University, Shanghai 200433
CHINA
Phone: 86-21-65642125
Email: li...@fudan.edu.cn
-----原始邮件-----
发件人:"Deepak Chopra" <nonlo...@chopra.com>
发送时间:2017-01-22 23:38:15 (星期日)
抄送:
主题: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
The Big Bang is a human construct every time you think about it
The key is knowledge to dive into the source of thought
2013 Costa Del Mar RoadCarlsbad, CA 92009
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Radheshyam Das <radhesh...@pamho.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 10:05:28 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
According to the ‘big bang’ theory, everything began from ‘a point of infinite temperature, infinite density, infinitesimal
size that is physically indescribable, mathematically unverifiable, beyond all conceptions of space and time.’
Many wise people have sincerely questioned, "How can a physically unrealisable, mathematically unverifiable theory be accepted as a
scientific theory? Is it not blind faith to believe everything came from a ‘big bang’? Is it not a good joke to think ‘a point’ to be the cause of all causes?
Also Encyclopaedia Britannica says, “It should be emphasized that no theory of the origin of solar system has as yet won general acceptance. All involve highly improbable assumptions.”
While athiests are using the best of their brains to give an explanation doing away with God, the theistic Scientists also have also many ways to establish the presence of a Creator beyond this Universe and its not wrong for us to have a look :
Henological (unity between parts and whole) : Look at all parts of your body; they serve the belly and belly in turn gives nourishment to all parts of body. Similarly a President of a Country is paid the taxes by population and he in turn maintains them all. All children in a School obey the Principal and he in turn arranges for their education and certificate to place them in a job. This is Singular Supreme and Plural subordinate principle found everywhere in the universe. Now we are all plural living beings, some 7 billion of us and we're getting nourishment of body, mind etc through heat and light (Sun), rains (water), grains, serials, spices (food), ayurvedic medicines (medicine) etc. Since we are plurals receiving all these favors, we are also under the rule of a Supreme. For example smoking, drinking, drugs, illicit connections etc bringforth physical and psychological sufferings, while yoga, meditation etc bringforth good health. Is it not a clear indication that someone is awarding suffering or happiness? Did we cut our facecuts? Did we choose our parents? If whole universe follows definite physical, chemical, mathematical, thermodynamic laws, how then can beauty, knowledge, strength, fame, riches, renunciation etc be arising by chance? Another observation : Symbiotic relationships involve a Supervisor above. For example, students pay fee to College and Teachers give them education, but this mutual benefit is made possible by a Principal. We pay money in a hotel and waiters serve us food; but this mutual arrangement is made because of a Hotel owner. Similarly plants supply us oxygen and we supply them CO2. Birds help Bulls/cows remove worms from their necks benefiting from mutual relationship, parents raise children and later children care for old parents, cows supply us milk and we maintain them in turn -- how can such symbiotic relationships exist without a superior who arranged for such mutual dependence?
Cosmological (God is cause of all causes) : My father, his father, his father.....all are living bodies; how can the source of all these living bodies be dead matter. When Dawkins brought up the point of life arising from matter, he laughed at his own proposition saying that his writing should be read like a fiction novel! (please see the reference article attached). If I am a sincere seeker of meaning and purpose of life, I will not agree to be fooled by such fiction laws that are cooked up the keep God in bay so that we humans can go on living a wanton life of eat, drink and be merry with no rhyme or rhythm to life.
Teleological (Argument from design) : Our body is a machine. Universe is a machine. First of all we can clearly show that life cannot arise from chemicals. Life has always come from life. Have you ever seen a Desktop computer uniting with a Laptop computer to produce a palmtop Computer? Only living bodies reproduce. Although some Scientists claimed that human being could be a highly developed matter, they've never practically proved any living body arising from matter till date. Even the cloning is done from two living bodies. Now to understand the presence of a Supreme God with big brain beyond the universe, we can first understand the spirit behind the body. When there is a spirit within the body, the body grows; dead matter only depreciates. Similarly when there is spirit present in a living body, the body reproduces and undergoes six changes of birth, growth, production of byproducts, maintained, dwindling and death. When spirit leaves, even a common man throws away the body of a relative understanding it to be a bag of flesh, bones, mucus, bile, stool, urine etc good for nothing. A hair on our head is decorated when body is living, but when the same hair is detached from the body and comes in food, it is considered impure. Thus the spirit is what gives meaning to our bodies. We may look at moving fishes in an aquarium or a walking girl on road. But we don't see a moving fan on the ceiling or a stationary mananquin in a clothe shop. Reason is simple. Presence of Spirit in a body makes body attractive, because spirit is beautiful. Spirit is beautiful because spirit is a part of God who is Supremely beautiful. In this way, we can come to understand the presence of a Supreme beyond the Cosmic machine, by studying our own spirits, who are beyond our bodily CNC machines.
I can say more but i want to be sensitive to your valuable time to hear these simple, logical, beautiful ways in which presence of a Supreme becomes so self-evident. I thank you all for discussing this most meaningful theme that is vital to all our lives which can open doors to our everlasting happiness, which is the very nature of spirit. Thank you very much.
Yours in service of Lord and humanity
Radheshyam das
-----Original Message-----
From: Sue De [mailto:sue...@hotmail.co.uk]
Sent: 19 January 2017 10:01 PM
To: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
God designed humans to entertain Himself and keep Himself occupied - intelligence or idiocy?
Our idiocy in spite of being given a brain keeps Him entertained, so His life is not boring. That is a definite proof of how clever God is. We all know death is certain, yet we ignore God and do not think of being in His clutch when we are dying. How amused God is watching us lusting for more and more which makes richer nations sell arms to countries where majority of people do not have enough. Worse still, all religious leaders sit by and watch, feeling very contented that they are serving God. A creator who found such an easy way to keep Himself occupied and entertained is surely to be 'wowed'.
All flying birds do not have hollow bones - shows the Creator's versatile nature. How else would early humans think of making flying objects? Heavy birds flying easily, led to the early hankering to fly.
God is versatile manifested through the diversity of creation and is also intelligent for He knew how to entertain Himself by creating us.
Mrs. Suchitra De.
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Rich Norman/Blair Neuman
Jan 26, 2017, 5:20:21 AM1/26/17
to Sungchul Ji, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, Jeremy Dunning-Davies, fis, bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk, con...@howgravityworks.org
Dear Sung:
You must be right! Jeremy, read that short bit he linked. That is a valuable distinction. Thank you, sir. Jeremy, what do you think of the deduction about Maxwell’s demon and the second law? Here, this paper will surely interest you, one from Jeremy: http://vixra.org/pdf/1610.0181v1.pdf [Another about information theory: http://vixra.org/pdf/1610.0030v1.pdf]
Paradox is not good science!
I have downloaded the three papers from Dr. Rapoport. These are somewhat technical, and will take a few days to gather.
This paper demonstrates the connection between information and biology very clearly. A beautiful isomorphism to thought itself.
I will comment on the work of Rapoport once I have read. New models of causality and evolution are both needed.
Rich Norman
On Jan 25, 2017, at 1:50 PM, Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com> wrote:Hi Diego ji,I downloaded your papers which will take me some time to read (and, I hope, digest).You used the term "negative entropy" twice in the following paragraph:
"Returning to the issue discussed by Dr Rich Norman of the validity of the second law of thermodynamics in relation to biology
where negative entropy drives systems to self-organize, I would like to comment that any non-linear thermodynamical system
actually increases to develop a singularity which is followed by the reorganization of the system through negative entropy"
I would like to call your attention to the fact that there is no "negative entropy" (which was first used by Schroedinger in 1944),since the Third Law of thermodynamics prohibits it [see my book chapter, Third Law of Thermodynamics and Schroedinger's Paradox, available at
But the concept of "negative entropy change" is perfectly valid which is associated with ordering and organization of matter.Thus, it may be convenient to define "negative entropy change" as "negentropy", although Brillouin (1889-1969) coined this termin 1953 to indicate "negative entropy" which, as pointed out above, violates the Third Law of thermodynamics and hence invalid. In other words, I amsuggesting that there are two meanings of "negentropy", old and new, of which the old meaning is invalid:Old (1953): negentropy = negative entropy (which violates the Third Law)New (2012): negentropy = negative entropy change (which is associated, often but not always, with order and organization)[S. Ji (1974) Energy and Negentropy in Enzymic Catalysis. PDF at http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Energy_and_negentropy_in_enzymic_catalysis.pdf]. .So I strongly recommend that the term "negative entropy" be replaced with "negentropy" with its new 2012 meaning, i.e., "negative entropy change",and not with its old meaning, with 1953 meaning, i.e., "negative entropy".If you have any questions or comments, please let me know.All the best.Sung
...
[Message clipped]--Sungchul Ji, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy
Rutgers University
Piscataway, N.J. 08855
609-240-4833
www.conformon.net
Anirudh Satsangi
Jan 26, 2017, 5:20:21 AM1/26/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, con...@howgravityworks.org
The question who created the ultimate creator will serve no purpose. This will also not lead anywhere. We are working in the Eternal System and we integral part of this Eternity.
Regards
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 8:08 AM, Diego Lucio Rapoport <diego.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
Best and kind regards,God(s) produces our bodies as to cognize him (her) and organize our lives or we produce God(s).The neural networks that Freeman considered as producing the nested hierarchy may well be non-orientable (Mobius strip ) as discussed also in my work, being the case that the topographicthe case is of an hyperKlein Bottle which is non-dual and heterarchical, rather than hierarchical (or, in other terms, both), as discussed in my work retaking MacCulloch's 1945 work.through negative entropy as per my work is the case of the brain as per your work following Freeman's tradition. (You even wrote it almost identically to my own presentation!)Dear Andrew and AlexanderThank you dearly for your most striking comment that the transition of non-linear thermodynamical systems from exploding entropy to a reorganization of the system
Allow me to suggest however, that rather than a nested hierarchy (say a Matrushka) as already suggested by Freeman, which is an iterated dual logophysics,maps of vision and somatosensory systems have the Klein Bottle topology, as is also the case of genomes.I look forward to study your works and return to you.
By the way, this non-dual logophysics which integrates Outside and Inside -as is the Klein Bottle- seems to be the natural one regarding the issue whetherDiego RapoportPS Does the dimensional reduction of the olfactory phenomenology to the single radial "spherical" dimension at the olfactory bulb
indicates a projective geometry with antipodal points identified, as retaken by Freeman from earlier research?
Would that be indeed the case, then finite sections of the bulb would be Mobius strips :-) (!!)
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[Mensaje recortado]
Sungchul Ji
Jan 26, 2017, 5:20:21 AM1/26/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, squ...@gotsky.com, Jeremy Dunning-Davies, fis, bjf...@sciences.demon.co.uk, con...@howgravityworks.org
Hi Diego ji,
I downloaded your papers which will take me some time to read (and, I hope, digest).
You used the term "negative entropy" twice in the following paragraph:
"Returning to the issue discussed by Dr Rich Norman of the validity of the second law of thermodynamics in relation to biology
where negative entropy drives systems to self-organize, I would like to comment that any non-linear
where negative entropy drives systems to self-organize, I would like to comment that any non-linear
thermodynamical system
actually increases to develop a singularity which is followed by the reorganization of the system through negative entropy"
actually increases to develop a singularity which is followed by the reorganization of the system through negative entropy"
I would like to call your attention to the fact that there is no "negative entropy" (which was first used by Schroedinger in 1944),
since the Third Law of thermodynamics prohibits it [see my book chapter, Third Law of Thermodynamics and Schroedinger's Paradox, available at
But the concept of "negative entropy change" is perfectly valid which is associated with ordering and organization of matter.
Thus, it may be convenient to define "negative entropy change" as "negentropy", although Brillouin (1889-1969) coined this term
in 1953 to indicate "negative entropy" which, as pointed out above, violates the Third Law of thermodynamics and hence invalid. In other words, I am
suggesting that there are two meanings of "negentropy", old and new, of which the old meaning is invalid:
Old (1953): negentropy = negative entropy (which violates the Third Law)
New (2012): negentropy = negative entropy change (which is associated, often but not always, with order and organization)
[S. Ji (1974) Energy and Negentropy in Enzymic Catalysis. PDF at http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Energy_and_negentropy_in_enzymic_catalysis.pdf]. .
So I strongly recommend that the term "negative entropy" be replaced with "negentropy" with its new 2012 meaning, i.e., "negative entropy change",
and not with its old meaning, with 1953 meaning, i.e., "negative entropy".
If you have any questions or comments, please let me know.
All the best.
Sung
...
[Message clipped]
Sungchul Ji
Jan 26, 2017, 5:20:29 AM1/26/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Puri ji,
P: However ‘design’ as a verb is not the only way in which the word may be used. It may also be used as a noun.
S: I think it is an excellent idea to distinguish between "design" used as a verb and "design" used as noun. Not doing so may have led to the painful debates between God-believers and non-God-believers.
It seems to me that a given design (or a pattern) can have more than one designer, depending on the mind of the observer. If so, this statement would fit the triadic definition of the sign given by Peirce (1839-1914):
f g
Design as Is ---------> Design as Observed ---------> Design as Interpreted
[Firstness] [Secondness] [Thirdness] <--- Metaphysics
(Object) (Sign) (Interpretant) <--- Semiotics
[Firstness] [Secondness] [Thirdness] <--- Metaphysics
(Object) (Sign) (Interpretant) <--- Semiotics
| ^
| |
| |
|______________________________________________|
h
| |
| |
|______________________________________________|
h
Figure 1. The irreducibly triadic nature of the word "design".
f = perception; g = cognition; h = proof or grounding.
Interpretant = the effect that a sign has on the mind of the interpreter.
f = perception; g = cognition; h = proof or grounding.
Interpretant = the effect that a sign has on the mind of the interpreter.
This liberates the meaning of the phrase "an intelligent designer" from the monopoly of God-believing religious groups, since there can be more than one "intelligent designer" (in addition to, or other than, their "God"), depending on the theory or the mind of the interpreter of this phrase. For myself, I have no problem referring to the intelligent designer as "God", "Nature", "Laws of Nature", or "Universal Mind", "Brahman", "Absolute Spirit", "Dao", "Hahnahneem" (Korean for God), etc, since, regardless of which name(s) one adopts, the irreducible triadic relation (ITR) diagram remains invariant.
All the best.
Sung
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 5:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
God did not design humans; if so, he would be an idiot:Best wishesBrian J Ford
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BMP
Jan 27, 2017, 8:20:03 AM1/27/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Respected Whit Blauvelt,
The senses can not function independently of reason. It is a widespread myth that "the eyes see," etc. Seeing, hearing, and so on do not occur in the senses. They do not occur in the brain either.
The eye, for instance, cannot see beauty or a landscape. There is no mind in the organ of the eyeball for interpreting such things. The lens focuses light upon the retina which when stimulated by a photon emits an electron or current sent to the optic nerve. There is nothing in the eyeball corresponding to the function of interpreting the electrical events trigered by the retina. The optic nerve is also considered simply a transfer relay medium to the occipital lobe of the brain. The electrical neuronal activity in the brain is incredibly imagined by materialistic scientists as producing images or thoughts of the objects projected on the retina. This is another myth. There is nothing in Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism that suggests that electromagnetic currents or fields produce thought or other similar phenomena. Rather just the opposite is the case: electricity and magnetism are concepts or thoughts, i.e. produced by thought. It is the conclusion of reason that the unmediated instantiations of such general concepts are what is experienced as actual or real electricity and magnetism.
In a dead body the eye is not able to see anything, even though it may be fullly intact along with the optic nerve and brain, because the soul has left the body. Sensing occurs in the soul, not the body. The eye of a dead body may be transplanted to the body of a living patient and then seeing is possible because the soul has not left the patient.
It is the soul that sees, feels, thinks, wills, and reasons. Even though one's attention may shift to different phases of consciousness - whether perceptual, judgmental or rational, the soul's reasoning is the active and determining principle.
The example of a robot with a photoelectric tube sensor, provides an illustration. The sensor detects a photon from the environment of the robot, and the electrical current from the phototube is fed to wires leading to a programmed computer where it is processed to activate a servo--motor that drives the robot to react in a particular way according to the input from the sensor. It is the computer program that interprets the electrical signal, not the sensor. The sensor can do nothing on its own because its function is limited to a simple mechanical stimulus response. It makes no judgement and issues no commands on its own.
Thus it is not the senses that can see a beautiful landscape. Beauty is determined by the mind as the coherence of the content (in whatever form it may be immediately present) with the Idea of the Absolute which inheres in every soul as a reflection. Just as many pots of water can reflect the Sun on its surface - the reflection is not the Sun itself, and not the universe, a new age fatuity that unfortunately is being propagated by some to the unwise. Collectively we form the spirit of the times, or Zeitgeist, but the finite soul is more like the reflected image of the Whole, just as a mirror or countless mirrors bear the image of the original which they reflect.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute
To: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2017 4:05 PM
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2017 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] The False Elephant and the False Ego
VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Jan 27, 2017, 8:20:03 AM1/27/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Respected Dr Sungji and Dr Puri.
You wrote: "I think it is an excellent idea to distinguish between "design" used as a verb and "design" used as noun. Not doing so may have led to the painful debates between God-believers and non-God-believers".
"This liberates the meaning of the phrase "an intelligent designer" from the monopoly of God-believing religious groups, since there can be more than one "intelligent designer" (in addition to, or other than, their "God"), depending on the theory or the mind of the interpreter of this phrase. For myself, I have no problem referring to the intelligent designer as "God", "Nature", "Laws of Nature", or "Universal Mind", "Brahman", "Absolute Spirit", "Dao", "Hahnahneem" (Korean for God), etc, since, regardless of which name(s) one adopts, the irreducible triadic relation (ITR) diagram remains invariant"
Whether "design" is used as a verb or noun does not affect substantially the status of a conscious intelligent "being" required for the creation of the universe. If "design" is used as a verb, need for an external conscious being arises for activating and chartering the course of the creation of the universe from inert Fundamental Prakriti. Status of conscious and intelligent Brahman or Purushaa is in no way having Fundamental status of inert Prakriti or nature. Both can have ultimate fundamental and absolute status without one being exclusive to other.
If "design" is used as a noun, then absolute and fundamental intelligent "being" should transform itself and unfold as the inert nature or Prakriti. Here nature is internal to absolute intelligent consciousness.
In either of the above cases, we can't get rid of the clutches of a conscious being having innate intelligence. We human beings are prone to use the words "conscious" and "intelligence" for the absolute conscious "being" in the same sense and on the same cast as being used locally for us due to our inability to cross over our local consciousness and intelligence and have a glimpse of consciousness and intelligence of absolute conscious "being". But a Yogi/Sage/Saint can also have a glimpse of the global consciousness and may be the intelligence of absolute conscious being since his ultimate objective is to get rid of the clutches of local consciousness and intelligence. Global and abstract consciousness of the absolute conscious being is not "knowable" thru local consciousness and intelligence but by getting rid of their clutches. This makes a single but a great difference between a Yogi/Sage/Saint having had realization and a Philosopher/Scientist/Thinker.
If you will use the words Laws of Nature or Nature or universal Mind for intelligent designer, all these words will be replaced by a " conscious intelligent being" since no Law or Mind can exist or take birth on its own without some manifested consciousness.This is at least we observe in the worldly technological and non-technological systems.
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
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Diego Lucio Rapoport
Jan 27, 2017, 8:20:03 AM1/27/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, fis, con...@howgravityworks.org
Dear Anirudh
Your comment about who created God points out to selfreference and heteroreference as ontopoietic principles.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Diego Lucio Rapoport
Jan 27, 2017, 8:20:03 AM1/27/17
to Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, squ...@gotsky.com, Jeremy Dunning-Davies, fis, Brian J Ford, con...@howgravityworks.org
Dear Andrew and Alexander,
Thank you for your reply and interest.elaborates on the non-dual logic of the entheological experience.
I append a work setting down some basic philosophical considerations (Analecta Husserliana, 2014) which are further ellaborated in my recent trilogy
Looking forward to communicate,Greetings from Patagonia
Diego
2017-01-26 6:22 GMT-03:00 Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science <andrew.fi...@bm-science.com>:
Dear Diego,
Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments. We are not mathematicians neither physicists, therefore some advanced concepts are not easy to follow, but we will try to look at your work in relation to your comments :)
In the end of your message you have referred to the dilemma of God… It sounds similar to our paper: “Is our brain hardwired to produce God or is our brain hardwired to perceive God? A systematic review on the role of the brain in mediating religious experience.” This paper is outside the physics domain and also does not touch explicitly ‘information’, - it discusses the empirical evidence about the neural constituents of religious experience and analyse it critically. For those who might be interested, please have a look here: http://www.bm-science.com/team/art56.pdf
Greetings,
A&A
From: Diego Lucio Rapoport [mailto:diego.rapoport@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 25 January, 2017 04:38
To: Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science
Cc: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com; squ...@gotsky.com; Jeremy Dunning-Davies; fis; Brian J Ford; con...@howgravityworks.org
Subject: Re: [Fis] [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Dear Andrew and Alexander
Best and kind regards,
John Jay Kineman
Jan 27, 2017, 8:20:03 AM1/27/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Many respects to you and this forum,
I would like to say that Im not a big fan of Peirce, but to 'correct' the view from my perspective one should add a fourth. I then align the categories in terms of four causes, as in vedic quadrants which I believe translate into
Aristotle's four causes, and in so doing provide deeper meaning and organization thab Aristotle realized. When that is done, 'design' is indeed taken as a noun and associates with formal cause. The designer is the whole cycle of causation (centered by systemic
identity, or self) so only reaches God in the largest system, which actually is beyond analysis because it is an infinity. Final cause is proximally a prior condition that enters into systemic context, acts as an exemplar and exists in Akash as a model the
output of which is design (appears as natural law). Design does not directly govern the material, however, a modern confusion. Design governs the dynamics that produce the material and thus structure. Such a cycle works in category theory and li algebras.
cheers, john
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BMP
Jan 27, 2017, 8:20:11 AM1/27/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Respected Sungchul Ji
There are two orders by which a thing may be known:
1. ordo cognoscendi
In the order of cognition or experience, a thing is known by how it first appears to us. Knowing things in this way is called phenomenal knowledge. Another way to refer to it is practical knowledge. Thus when we pick up a book the first thing we see is that it is made up of paper pages with marks or signs on them that are called letters of an alphabet. These letters form words, which in turn form paragraphs, chapters and the whole book. The message or meaning results from reading the book as a whole.
2. order essendi
In the order of logical or ontological understanding we don't start with our experience, we start with what we think might be the ground of the experience - with what may have caused the experience or appearance of things. We can call this noumenal knowledge. So the cause of a book, for example, might be imagined to be from an explosion in a primordial soup of alphabetical letters, or gradual evolution of the book in a process of condensation and some kind of natural selection, or some intelligent agent produced it from an idea in his/her mind.
Looking further into Peirce's idea of firstness, it may be shown that it does not refer to noumenal reality but phenomenal appearance. In other words it is not first in accord with ordo essendi or ontology, As a pragmatist Pierce thought of things in a practical way according to the way they first appear to us in our experience or ordo cognoscendi, and then relate our experience (for us) to the object (for itself) as a secondness stemming from our first experience.
A sign represents something or some object. Thus Pierce calls it a representamen or firstness - that which represents something else. The most significant point is the implication of 'representing' something else. The noumenal does not represent anything except itself, i.e. a thing in itself. Thus it is not a representamen or sign. Thus the noumenal is the object or what the sign represents and as such is secondness or object. The meaning or relation of the first two moments is thirdness. It is the law or universality that combines the first two moments. Thus for example, you observe a light in the sky at different times during the year. This data is firstness or what appears to you in experience. You infer that this implies either a self-luminous star or light-reflecting object that is moving. You then formulate a mathematical law that fits the trajectory - this is the thirdness from the perspective of ordo cognoscendi.
Here are some direct quotes from Pierce on firstness to validate this if you are not convinced:
"...the quality of what we are immediately conscious of, which is no fiction, is Firstness." [Part 1 of 3rd draught of 3rd Lecture | CP (Collected Papers) 1.343]
"The typical ideas of firstness are qualities of feeling, or mere appearances." [1904 | Letters to Lady Welby | CP 8.329]
A table from one of his personal articles describing the relation of the three moments had this entry:
- - - Firstness - - - - -- - Secondness - - Thirdness
qualities of phenomena/ actual facts/ laws (and thoughts)
Thus the Design as observed (the phenomenal) is Firstness or sign, then the object this sign refers to is Secondness. What is perceived is the sign, not the Design as it is. The actual object has to be thought (metaphysics) or inferred from the mere appearance of it (what you call cognition). Thirdness is the conception in which these two are united or brought into agreement.
Sincerely,
Bhakti Madhava Puri, Ph. D.
From: Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics hype ...
Serge Patlavskiy
Jan 28, 2017, 7:04:09 AM1/28/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
-
Bhakti Madhava Puri on Jan 27, 2017 wrote:
>The senses can not function independently of reason. It is a
>widespread myth that "the eyes see," etc. Seeing, hearing, and
>so on do not occur in the senses.
[S.P.] In my reply to Vinod Sehgal on October 14, 2016 I wrote:
"My explanatory framework holds that our consciousness processes either the physical (sensory) signal, or the formerly memorized element of knowledge, and, in result, constructs a new element of knowledge. To the point, from the fact that there is a physical (sensory) signal does not follow that we will necessarily have a new knowledge yet.
It is our consciousness that decides on a one-by-one basis whether to transform the given physical (sensory) signal into new knowledge, or not. So, we may be looking at something (there may be the physical sensory signals sent by our eyes in the form of electric impulses along the neuronal paths to the brain), but seeing nothing. Also, we may be looking at nothing (the physical sensory signals are totally absent), but seeing something (we deal here with a case of visual hallucination).
So, for me, there is nothing like "conscious signal", but physical (sensory) signal -- the element of Noumenal Reality. Our consciousness may (or may not) transform this physical (sensory) signal into new element of knowledge for us, or into new element of our personal version of Phenomenal Reality."
Best,
Serge Patlavskiy
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 2:29 PM
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Anirudh Satsangi
Jan 28, 2017, 7:04:15 AM1/28/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, fis, con...@howgravityworks.org
Dear Diego
Thank you very much for responding to my views.
Warm regards
Anirudh
Diego Lucio Rapoport
Jan 28, 2017, 7:04:15 AM1/28/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, squ...@gotsky.com, Jeremy Dunning-Davies, fis, Brian J Ford, con...@howgravityworks.org
Dear Sung Ji,
I agree with your qualifications. Whether the non-linear system is thermodynamical or not, its evolution blowing up to infinity with itsInformation Theory. I chose to call it an ontopoietic phase, to remark its non-dual logophysical basis.
Best regards
DiegoTo unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
Whit Blauvelt
Jan 28, 2017, 7:04:15 AM1/28/17
to 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.
Dear Dr. Bhakti Madhava Puri,
Thank you for your eloquent explanation, with which I largely agree. I
believe our apparent disagreement is because we are using the label of "the
senses" for concepts which are not the same. The sense of vision, in my
usage, is not just the sensory organ, the eyes. Rather it is the eyes plus
the large proportion of the brain which is most active when visual input or
visual imagination is engaged. And if there is soul beyond the brain (which
I suspect, but am less than totally sure), then a portion of that is
involved too. So the visual sense is the whole of organ-brain-soul involved
with that which we perceive and imagine in visual terms.
Similarly the auditory sense is not just the ears, but at the same time
associated areas of brain and soul. As the alchemists said, "As above, so
below."
Then there is what the philosophers of the Scottish Enlightment called the
"common sense" -- which is where the several senses are brought together and
something larger is emergent. This use of the term "the senses" that I favor
is that of the Scotts. My concern then is that there are times when we
operate so that the senses do not come together but are held apart, so
"common sense" as the Scotts used that term does not so much emerge, and our
souls are not expressed in a unified or coherent way. (This is not to be
confused with the current popular use of the term "common sense," where it
means something like "what the common people think.)"
When people see conflict between "reason" (which is largely built around
auditory language for most of us) and "imagination" (which is largely built
around vision), my suspicion -- indeed my own experience -- is that this
fracture is a failure to achieve the Scotts' "common sense" -- and so a
failure to coherently manifest the soul.
Best regards,
Whit
> ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
> To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
Thank you for your eloquent explanation, with which I largely agree. I
believe our apparent disagreement is because we are using the label of "the
senses" for concepts which are not the same. The sense of vision, in my
usage, is not just the sensory organ, the eyes. Rather it is the eyes plus
the large proportion of the brain which is most active when visual input or
visual imagination is engaged. And if there is soul beyond the brain (which
I suspect, but am less than totally sure), then a portion of that is
involved too. So the visual sense is the whole of organ-brain-soul involved
with that which we perceive and imagine in visual terms.
Similarly the auditory sense is not just the ears, but at the same time
associated areas of brain and soul. As the alchemists said, "As above, so
below."
Then there is what the philosophers of the Scottish Enlightment called the
"common sense" -- which is where the several senses are brought together and
something larger is emergent. This use of the term "the senses" that I favor
is that of the Scotts. My concern then is that there are times when we
operate so that the senses do not come together but are held apart, so
"common sense" as the Scotts used that term does not so much emerge, and our
souls are not expressed in a unified or coherent way. (This is not to be
confused with the current popular use of the term "common sense," where it
means something like "what the common people think.)"
When people see conflict between "reason" (which is largely built around
auditory language for most of us) and "imagination" (which is largely built
around vision), my suspicion -- indeed my own experience -- is that this
fracture is a failure to achieve the Scotts' "common sense" -- and so a
failure to coherently manifest the soul.
Best regards,
Whit
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Diego Lucio Rapoport
Jan 28, 2017, 7:04:16 AM1/28/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, Sungchul Ji, Jeremy Dunning-Davies, Brian J Ford, con...@howgravityworks.org, Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science
Dear Rich,
Thank you for your interest for my work, which -allow me to disagree- is highly conceptual rather than "technical" as you put it.nor stochastic differential equations amply used by Walter Freeman in his modeling of brain functioning, but it further requires what
Piaget called the most elementary forms of cognition, topology. For all technical instruments in reading them, it is recommended to use
1. a ball,
2. a pair of scissors,
3, (plastic) glue
4. two colured sided sheets of papers
and, voila, we are all set.
A plastic self is also highly needed.
A plastic self is also highly needed.
Looking forward to communicate.
Best wishes
Diego
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Rich Norman/Blair Neuman
Jan 28, 2017, 7:05:23 AM1/28/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Greetings all:
I can offer some substantial support for the existence of Rutherford’s neutron. Neutrons have indeed been produced from an arc of current in hydrogen gas by Santilli.
Diego Lucio Rapoport
Jan 30, 2017, 5:45:06 AM1/30/17
to Rich Norman/Blair Neuman, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, Sungchul Ji, Andrew Fingelkurts / BM-Science, Jeremy Dunning-Davies
Dear Rich,
Thank you for your comments which I will ponder and you have my commitment for reading the material you have sent me. (However I should inform you that I am hyperoverloaded with very pressing issues, so I have very little time if any but to deal with them. Yet, you have my interest for sure).
I read the most important work by Elio Conte and his collaborations with Andrei Khrennikov, Joseph Zbilut and others time ago,
As for the compounding of time advocated by Santilli, actually non-linear time (timespace for Heidegger), you will find in Part I of my trilogy that the development of conchoids studied in the model of Chris Illert -the only model that managed to reproduce their development and shows that compounding of time is the case of conchoids which Illert suggested it should be understood as a Mobius strip. And this is what the cyclical destruction of non-linear systems which develop singularities recreate themselves through such kind of loops (see Part I, please); in particular this is the case of non-linear thermodynamical systems, with the growth of entropy with the production of a singularity is followed by negentropical recreation.
So Shiva's cyclical dance of creation and destruction is about non-orientability, the Mobius strip and Klein Bottle, surmounting the Exterior/Interior divide so accurately criticised by Wittgenstein.
Certainly the usual one-directedness of linear causality is over-ruled. This is already the case of music perception, the visual and somatosensory systems, and functionally, the unity of action and perception, which i discuss in my trilogy
As said already, topology for its cognitive primitivity takes the role of creator, midwife and manifested creature, and still lurking and operating the imaginal domain (I quote here psychoanalyst Jacques Lacan, not without a grimace; I very much prefer the millenary Persian tradition and Henri Corbin's report of it) . I see, today, no need for Santilli's Hypermathematics, nor naturality in its bringing into the formal.
representations. It does not capture the non-orientable topology, unless you put it into the very definition of the hyper-unit !!!
Your discussion on multifractality is the issue! I will take time to return on this.
Diego
2017-01-28 16:28 GMT-03:00 Rich Norman/Blair Neuman <squ...@gotsky.com>:
Dear Diego:You have my word, I will look it over in the next few days. I will read yours if you read mine. I am distracted, and working feverishly on a new and disturbing project regarding cancer. But I will read. You see, I am looking for a partner in crime. I will explain.First…Two pretty pennies tossed into future’s well:An approach to intra-related universal and conscious processes.An answer to paradox in quantum theory which preserves observed effects.The two together, demonstrate the neuroanatomical and proposed physical/informational basis of gravitation and quantum superluminal aspects, and that––leads to a new model of evolution. Here is where I have run into trouble.To explain biological evolution, Santilli is correct in ascribing necessary import to 4 temporal directionalities, which by my view are compoundings, not really time moving backward. Wheeler’s delayed choice has been run, and wave function collapse into the past demonstrated. The effect is the same as would be created in time moving backward, so the formalism works. But that is false, as all energy releasing process are non reversible. If you care, here is my view on the new evidence of a ten second lead time evidenced in biological systems via involuntary measures (EEG, HR, etc) as a compounding. http://media.wix.com/ugd/cf8614_1bc1bcb65cb94d57819d7f7357d03855.pdfPAA, evidence of future events in biological systems before their occurrence has been shown over and over (request papers). That is the olast additional directionality (along with the Wheeler), from future to present, before the event has arrived. This permits the correct mathematical formalism to be created for biological systemic evolution as demonstrated in sea shells: Hyper-mathematics.The reason I will read your papers is to aid my search for someone to help complete the formalism for the following idea. Ask and I will relay the equations to be doubly represented in the adjusted time series so as to reform the principle of causality within multifractals to include future influence, and permit a functional new mathematics of evolution. I require assistance. This may simplify complex multifractal calculations improving accuracy of neural network modeling and weather prediction alike!We have found that every single neuron in the connectome, and so the connectome itself of C-elegans is multifractal. Ask for paper. This neuronal mass, ~300 neurons is the mass for self-direction and evolutionary process increase, according to Penrose. The full measure of temporal contact must be added to make it work. All multifractal.I need someone who can assist in modifying the formalism, to create a new evolutionary model, perhaps with extended applications to turbulent systems. I will read your work as it involves singularities and evolving systems. The superpositions below, are as link two above, formalism used to represent a non probabilistic informational allocation. I am glad I need only a bit of tape and string to comprehend your work, as I am just a feeble-minded drummer obsessed with biology and physics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRJGENHgezk Here is a bit of the idea, very simply put:What if multifractal systems, are the correct evolutionary paradigm? A sort of quantum Lamarckism. The multifractal spectra, think of them, as superpositions.
Morphofunctional and evolutionary profiles:
The singularity spectrum in multifractal systems quantifies the degree of nonlinearity in the processes. For a linear fractal process the output singularities will have the same properties regardless of initial conditions or dynamic forces. In contrast, nonlinear fractal processes will generate outputs with different properties that depend on the input conditions and/or history of the system. That is, the output of the system over time will display different types of singularities, meaning: the system evolves and adapts. In this way, the form and related function of the system interactively evolve. Over time: the complexity of modern anatomy results, and that, must be multifractal as well, as it is also evolutionarily adaptive over time, highly complex and comes of the same process.Now the retrocausal fun!
As a fractal system becomes more and more complex, it is less easy to predict the outcomes. A bit of quantum theory and music theory may get to something. What if instead of a complex system defining a future outcome, the simple (constrained) future outcome, defined the complex system? What if it worked in reverse, as wave function collapse from the future into the present? Then it is simple.
Think of music theory, which is very simple compared to quantum theory. The chords are derived from modes and keys, from sub-groupings of the 12 notes. Certain chords are useful under a soloist who may choose one melody based on one such grouping or another. Add all of the derivative modes and keys up, and define the basis of the chord, and support the melody to be selected. Let's say, 9 notes. Now, I have theory, which has produced the correct result, whereby, one can use the hidden notes, the illegal notes which can not be played, the three wrong ones, to define the same structure.
Note how the choice of the three simple notes, is CONSTRAINED, selected from, by the more complex nine which are known.
Now, think of a fractal system, a multifractal system. It is very complex! However, if we look at it backward, and understand that there is clear evidence of the FUTURE presenting in the present, as in PAA, we may hypothesize: retrocausal influence from future to present, the three notes, select the complex state outcome. These are a future superposition, a small set of possible futures, a piece of multifractal spectra, which past states and complexity have constrained, selected from the entire of all possibility. The nine notes (present complex state), select the three (future possibilities/multifractal-spectra/distortions). Then the three, resolve the state. The present complexity thereby resolved, through retrocausal collapse from future to present. As the Wheeler delayed choice (which has been run), but from future to present.
So the idea is: Complex fractal states evolve by way of past/present constraint which limits retrocausal selectivity. Complex fractal states do not select future states, constrained future states, retrocausally define complex systems.
"All complex things, are but future simplicities."
Rich Norman
On Jan 27, 2017, at 5:08 AM, Diego Lucio Rapoport <diego.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
Not only it has no equations at all, so the hundreds of hours the basic maths that biologists take are somewhat not requiredDear Rich,Thank you for your interest for my work, which -allow me to disagree- is highly conceptual rather than "technical" as you put it.
nor stochastic differential equations amply used by Walter Freeman in his modeling of brain functioning, but it further requires whatPiaget called the most elementary forms of cognition, topology. For all technical instruments in reading them, it is recommended to use1. a ball,2. a pair of scissors,3, (plastic) glue4. two colured sided sheets of papersand, voila, we are all set.
A plastic self is also highly needed.
Looking forward to communicate.
Best wishes
Diego
Dear Sung:You must be right! Jeremy, read that short bit he linked. That is a valuable distinction. Thank you, sir. Jeremy, what do you think of the deduction about Maxwell’s demon and the second law? Here, this paper will surelyinterest you, one from Jeremy: http://vixra.org/pdf/1610.0181v1.pdf [Another about information theory: http://vixra.org/pdf/1610.0030v1.pdf]
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