-Cosmin Visan on March 21, 2018 wrote:>Does anyone know any books or papers that try to bring mechanisms> for ESPs ? Because I think that consciousness cannot be properly>understood without accounting for ESP. And so far, I never saw any>such kind of attempt..[S.P.] I would place the horse before the cart: the phenomenon of ESP (extra sensory perception) cannot be properly understood without accounting for the mechanisms of consciousness.
.[Cosmin Visan] wrote:> There are lots of theories for consciousness out there....[S.P.] How many "theories of consciousness" do you know? Can you name, at least, one? By "theory of consciousness" I mean the explanatory framework able to show how the physical sensory signals become transformed into the elements of subjective experience. For the last 20+ years I am in search for other theorist's version of the theory of consciousness to compare our results, but still in vain.
On 21 Mar 2018, at 09:24, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:43 AM, 'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:-Cosmin Visan on March 21, 2018 wrote:>Does anyone know any books or papers that try to bring mechanisms> for ESPs ? Because I think that consciousness cannot be properly>understood without accounting for ESP. And so far, I never saw any>such kind of attempt..[S.P.] I would place the horse before the cart: the phenomenon of ESP (extra sensory perception) cannot be properly understood without accounting for the mechanisms of consciousness.Here I think its important to ask what is it that we mean by the phrase "understanding". What do we actually understand about anything? When we say that we understand Newton's laws, what do we actually mean? And do we really understand quantum mechanics? In most cases, "understanding" only means two things : familiarity and mathematical framework. Familiarity with these phenomenon and with consciousness can only be gained through certain spiritual practices well described in Patanjali Yoga Sutras and other such texts. As for mathematical framework, it seems nowhere in sight and will perhaps be this way forever..[Cosmin Visan] wrote:> There are lots of theories for consciousness out there....[S.P.] How many "theories of consciousness" do you know? Can you name, at least, one? By "theory of consciousness" I mean the explanatory framework able to show how the physical sensory signals become transformed into the elements of subjective experience. For the last 20+ years I am in search for other theorist's version of the theory of consciousness to compare our results, but still in vain.If we are again looking for a mathematical theory, there is surely none.
There are many philosophical theories, which are valuable in other ways but don't really help in any predictions.Best,Kushal.--
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Does anyone know any books or papers that try to bring mechanisms for ESPs ? Because I think that consciousness cannot be properly understood without accounting for ESP. And so far, I never saw any such kind of attempt. There are lots of theories for consciousness out there and many millions of pages written in the history of man with lots of interesting things about "normal" consciousness. But I never stumbled upon any paper that tries to bring any mechanism for ESP (for example, how can we account for precognition without dealing with temporal paradoxes? what view of time/consciousness we need to adopt in order for precognition to not be paradoxical and problematic? etc.). Anyone knows any such papers?
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On 26 Mar 2018, at 02:52, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:Bruno, I was referring to a mathematical theory of consciousness that is well accepted in the scientific community,
and there is no such theory.
People may claim many things, but it doesn't mean much till it has gone through a wide scrutiny.
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The scientific community use the mechanist hypothesis most of time, explicitly or implicitly, with the exception of those who assumes the collapse of the wave packet, but they are non longer a majority.
Yes, and Mechanism make claims testable, and somehow quantum mechanics confirms it admirably, unless we believe in the wave packet reduction, which Feynman called “collective illusion”, if I remember well.
Does anyone know any books or papers that try to bring mechanisms for ESPs ? Because I think that consciousness cannot be properly understood without accounting for ESP. And so far, I never saw any such kind of attempt. There are lots of theories for consciousness out there and many millions of pages written in the history of man with lots of interesting things about "normal" consciousness. But I never stumbled upon any paper that tries to bring any mechanism for ESP (for example, how can we account for precognition without dealing with temporal paradoxes? what view of time/consciousness we need to adopt in order for precognition to not be paradoxical and problematic? etc.). Anyone knows any such papers?
On 27 Mar 2018, at 08:50, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 10:08 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:The scientific community use the mechanist hypothesis most of time, explicitly or implicitly, with the exception of those who assumes the collapse of the wave packet, but they are non longer a majority.Are you sure that a majority of physicists no longer believe in wave packet collapse??
What other way do we have to explain so many quantum phenomenon? Particle's popping in and out of existence in a quantum field? Thats just another way of referring to the wave function collapse.
Yes, and Mechanism make claims testable, and somehow quantum mechanics confirms it admirably, unless we believe in the wave packet reduction, which Feynman called “collective illusion”, if I remember well.Can you please share any one testable claim of this meta-theory in the realm of consciousness?
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Kushal: Are you sure that a majority of physicists no longer believe in wave packet collapse??Bruno: Those who believe in it, and are serious, try hard to make sense of it, … without success, like de Broglie, or Bohm.Kushal: What other way do we have to explain so many quantum phenomenon? Particle's popping in and out of existence in a quantum field? Thats just another way of referring to the wave function collapse.Bruno: It is simpler to just not postulate the collapse, like Everett, Deutsch and others (including Paul Werbos if I understand it well).
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On 28 Mar 2018, at 18:11, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:Bruno, if you are referring to the multiverse theory,
it's not necessarily better or more sensible than wave function collapse. There are many who prefer the latter.
I still don't see any testable prediction of your theory in the realm of consciousness.
It's always possible to construct mathematical systems to align with physical models of reality.
That doesn't say anything about subjective experience which is the prime feature of consciousness.
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It is not a question of preferring a theory on another, it is a question of explains better the facts. The collapse axiom just does not make any sense to me. It is equivalent with saying that the Schroedinger equation is false for the observer, and it implies a dualism which requires highly non-mechanist axioms.
> That doesn't say anything about subjective experience which is the prime feature of consciousness.? Hmm… You might need to study my papers. It says a lot of things of the subjective experiences.
On 28 Mar 2018, at 15:40, Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com> wrote:I have often proposed that my "MQED" modification of KQED fulfills (2), and reflects an analysis of the physics of polarizers. But on this list... I have to admit thatthe new polarizer models DO entail a different KIND of "collapse", more or less a time-symmetric version of the old model, where collapse can occur from present to future, OR in the reverse direction, with some probability, where probabilities come into it because of the thermodynamics of the solid objects.
Bruno: I have no problem with what you say, although I am not sure what you mean by “different kind of collapse”. For me, Everett explanation (in his long text) is satisfying, except that he uses mechanism, which forces to obtained the wave itself from the phenomenology of self-referential arithmetic.
Best,BrunoPaul
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On 30 Mar 2018, at 20:34, Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com> wrote:On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 10:12 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:On 28 Mar 2018, at 15:40, Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com> wrote:I have often proposed that my "MQED" modification of KQED fulfills (2), and reflects an analysis of the physics of polarizers. But on this list... I have to admit thatthe new polarizer models DO entail a different KIND of "collapse", more or less a time-symmetric version of the old model, where collapse can occur from present to future, OR in the reverse direction, with some probability, where probabilities come into it because of the thermodynamics of the solid objects.Bruno: I have no problem with what you say, although I am not sure what you mean by “different kind of collapse”. For me, Everett explanation (in his long text) is satisfying, except that he uses mechanism, which forces to obtained the wave itself from the phenomenology of self-referential arithmetic.Everett's PhD thesis attempted to derive the classical measurement rules (time-forwards collapse, Born rule...) from the dynamics but was not really able to do so.
In
P. Werbos, Bell's Theorem, Many Worlds and Backwards-Time Physics: Not Just a Matter of Interpretation, International Journal of Theoretical Physics (IJTP), Volume 47, Number 11, 2862-2874, DOI: 10.1007/s10773-008-9719-9
I pointed out that of course one cannot derive a measurement rule which is asymmetric with respect to time by using or assuming only the dynamics…
but by using dynamics AND the boundary conditions provided by sources of free energy, one can derive a MODIFIED version of the measurement rules.
At first, I used to say "this is an alternative to collapse," but really, I had to admit that it is a different KIND of collapse.
To be symmetric with respect to time, it must admit a probability for a pure state coming "in" from the future and a mixed state going "out" to the past, with a local probability the same as that of going the other way. (Total probability of a scenario is a convolution of all the local probabilities in the experiment.)
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On 30 Mar 2018, at 19:02, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:It is not a question of preferring a theory on another, it is a question of explains better the facts. The collapse axiom just does not make any sense to me. It is equivalent with saying that the Schroedinger equation is false for the observer, and it implies a dualism which requires highly non-mechanist axioms.The many-worlds or multiverse idea does not make sense to many in the same way as the collapse axiom does not make sense to you. It is a question of personal preference unless we objectively establish which one of the two is right.> That doesn't say anything about subjective experience which is the prime feature of consciousness.? Hmm… You might need to study my papers. It says a lot of things of the subjective experiences.Please share any one paper of yours and point out the page/paragraph where you show how your theory leads to subjective consciousness.
Kushal.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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On 2 Apr 2018, at 20:10, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:Bruno,Where you say, """...except that he uses mechanism, which forces to obtained the wave itself from the phenomenology of self-referential arithmetic""", in particular does your phrase "self-referiential arithmetic" refer to, imply, require some sort of nested or hierarchical structure of equations, or a recursion recipe?
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On 3 Apr 2018, at 18:40, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruno,
Who are you calling no one?The stuff inside and out is just NSD ... nested structured-duality.
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