-Cosmin Visan on March 21, 2018 wrote:>Does anyone know any books or papers that try to bring mechanisms> for ESPs ? Because I think that consciousness cannot be properly>understood without accounting for ESP. And so far, I never saw any>such kind of attempt..[S.P.] I would place the horse before the cart: the phenomenon of ESP (extra sensory perception) cannot be properly understood without accounting for the mechanisms of consciousness.
.[Cosmin Visan] wrote:> There are lots of theories for consciousness out there....[S.P.] How many "theories of consciousness" do you know? Can you name, at least, one? By "theory of consciousness" I mean the explanatory framework able to show how the physical sensory signals become transformed into the elements of subjective experience. For the last 20+ years I am in search for other theorist's version of the theory of consciousness to compare our results, but still in vain.
On 21 Mar 2018, at 09:24, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:43 AM, 'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:-Cosmin Visan on March 21, 2018 wrote:>Does anyone know any books or papers that try to bring mechanisms> for ESPs ? Because I think that consciousness cannot be properly>understood without accounting for ESP. And so far, I never saw any>such kind of attempt..[S.P.] I would place the horse before the cart: the phenomenon of ESP (extra sensory perception) cannot be properly understood without accounting for the mechanisms of consciousness.Here I think its important to ask what is it that we mean by the phrase "understanding". What do we actually understand about anything? When we say that we understand Newton's laws, what do we actually mean? And do we really understand quantum mechanics? In most cases, "understanding" only means two things : familiarity and mathematical framework. Familiarity with these phenomenon and with consciousness can only be gained through certain spiritual practices well described in Patanjali Yoga Sutras and other such texts. As for mathematical framework, it seems nowhere in sight and will perhaps be this way forever..[Cosmin Visan] wrote:> There are lots of theories for consciousness out there....[S.P.] How many "theories of consciousness" do you know? Can you name, at least, one? By "theory of consciousness" I mean the explanatory framework able to show how the physical sensory signals become transformed into the elements of subjective experience. For the last 20+ years I am in search for other theorist's version of the theory of consciousness to compare our results, but still in vain.If we are again looking for a mathematical theory, there is surely none.
There are many philosophical theories, which are valuable in other ways but don't really help in any predictions.Best,Kushal.--
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Does anyone know any books or papers that try to bring mechanisms for ESPs ? Because I think that consciousness cannot be properly understood without accounting for ESP. And so far, I never saw any such kind of attempt. There are lots of theories for consciousness out there and many millions of pages written in the history of man with lots of interesting things about "normal" consciousness. But I never stumbled upon any paper that tries to bring any mechanism for ESP (for example, how can we account for precognition without dealing with temporal paradoxes? what view of time/consciousness we need to adopt in order for precognition to not be paradoxical and problematic? etc.). Anyone knows any such papers?
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On 26 Mar 2018, at 02:52, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:Bruno, I was referring to a mathematical theory of consciousness that is well accepted in the scientific community,
and there is no such theory.
People may claim many things, but it doesn't mean much till it has gone through a wide scrutiny.
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The scientific community use the mechanist hypothesis most of time, explicitly or implicitly, with the exception of those who assumes the collapse of the wave packet, but they are non longer a majority.
Yes, and Mechanism make claims testable, and somehow quantum mechanics confirms it admirably, unless we believe in the wave packet reduction, which Feynman called “collective illusion”, if I remember well.
Does anyone know any books or papers that try to bring mechanisms for ESPs ? Because I think that consciousness cannot be properly understood without accounting for ESP. And so far, I never saw any such kind of attempt. There are lots of theories for consciousness out there and many millions of pages written in the history of man with lots of interesting things about "normal" consciousness. But I never stumbled upon any paper that tries to bring any mechanism for ESP (for example, how can we account for precognition without dealing with temporal paradoxes? what view of time/consciousness we need to adopt in order for precognition to not be paradoxical and problematic? etc.). Anyone knows any such papers?
On 27 Mar 2018, at 08:50, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 10:08 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:The scientific community use the mechanist hypothesis most of time, explicitly or implicitly, with the exception of those who assumes the collapse of the wave packet, but they are non longer a majority.Are you sure that a majority of physicists no longer believe in wave packet collapse??
What other way do we have to explain so many quantum phenomenon? Particle's popping in and out of existence in a quantum field? Thats just another way of referring to the wave function collapse.
Yes, and Mechanism make claims testable, and somehow quantum mechanics confirms it admirably, unless we believe in the wave packet reduction, which Feynman called “collective illusion”, if I remember well.Can you please share any one testable claim of this meta-theory in the realm of consciousness?
Best,Kushal.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Kushal: Are you sure that a majority of physicists no longer believe in wave packet collapse??Bruno: Those who believe in it, and are serious, try hard to make sense of it, … without success, like de Broglie, or Bohm.Kushal: What other way do we have to explain so many quantum phenomenon? Particle's popping in and out of existence in a quantum field? Thats just another way of referring to the wave function collapse.Bruno: It is simpler to just not postulate the collapse, like Everett, Deutsch and others (including Paul Werbos if I understand it well).
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On 28 Mar 2018, at 18:11, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:Bruno, if you are referring to the multiverse theory,
it's not necessarily better or more sensible than wave function collapse. There are many who prefer the latter.
I still don't see any testable prediction of your theory in the realm of consciousness.
It's always possible to construct mathematical systems to align with physical models of reality.
That doesn't say anything about subjective experience which is the prime feature of consciousness.
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It is not a question of preferring a theory on another, it is a question of explains better the facts. The collapse axiom just does not make any sense to me. It is equivalent with saying that the Schroedinger equation is false for the observer, and it implies a dualism which requires highly non-mechanist axioms.
> That doesn't say anything about subjective experience which is the prime feature of consciousness.? Hmm… You might need to study my papers. It says a lot of things of the subjective experiences.
On 28 Mar 2018, at 15:40, Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com> wrote:I have often proposed that my "MQED" modification of KQED fulfills (2), and reflects an analysis of the physics of polarizers. But on this list... I have to admit thatthe new polarizer models DO entail a different KIND of "collapse", more or less a time-symmetric version of the old model, where collapse can occur from present to future, OR in the reverse direction, with some probability, where probabilities come into it because of the thermodynamics of the solid objects.
Bruno: I have no problem with what you say, although I am not sure what you mean by “different kind of collapse”. For me, Everett explanation (in his long text) is satisfying, except that he uses mechanism, which forces to obtained the wave itself from the phenomenology of self-referential arithmetic.
Best,BrunoPaul
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On 30 Mar 2018, at 20:34, Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com> wrote:On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 10:12 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:On 28 Mar 2018, at 15:40, Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com> wrote:I have often proposed that my "MQED" modification of KQED fulfills (2), and reflects an analysis of the physics of polarizers. But on this list... I have to admit thatthe new polarizer models DO entail a different KIND of "collapse", more or less a time-symmetric version of the old model, where collapse can occur from present to future, OR in the reverse direction, with some probability, where probabilities come into it because of the thermodynamics of the solid objects.Bruno: I have no problem with what you say, although I am not sure what you mean by “different kind of collapse”. For me, Everett explanation (in his long text) is satisfying, except that he uses mechanism, which forces to obtained the wave itself from the phenomenology of self-referential arithmetic.Everett's PhD thesis attempted to derive the classical measurement rules (time-forwards collapse, Born rule...) from the dynamics but was not really able to do so.
In
P. Werbos, Bell's Theorem, Many Worlds and Backwards-Time Physics: Not Just a Matter of Interpretation, International Journal of Theoretical Physics (IJTP), Volume 47, Number 11, 2862-2874, DOI: 10.1007/s10773-008-9719-9
I pointed out that of course one cannot derive a measurement rule which is asymmetric with respect to time by using or assuming only the dynamics…
but by using dynamics AND the boundary conditions provided by sources of free energy, one can derive a MODIFIED version of the measurement rules.
At first, I used to say "this is an alternative to collapse," but really, I had to admit that it is a different KIND of collapse.
To be symmetric with respect to time, it must admit a probability for a pure state coming "in" from the future and a mixed state going "out" to the past, with a local probability the same as that of going the other way. (Total probability of a scenario is a convolution of all the local probabilities in the experiment.)
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On 30 Mar 2018, at 19:02, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:It is not a question of preferring a theory on another, it is a question of explains better the facts. The collapse axiom just does not make any sense to me. It is equivalent with saying that the Schroedinger equation is false for the observer, and it implies a dualism which requires highly non-mechanist axioms.The many-worlds or multiverse idea does not make sense to many in the same way as the collapse axiom does not make sense to you. It is a question of personal preference unless we objectively establish which one of the two is right.> That doesn't say anything about subjective experience which is the prime feature of consciousness.? Hmm… You might need to study my papers. It says a lot of things of the subjective experiences.Please share any one paper of yours and point out the page/paragraph where you show how your theory leads to subjective consciousness.
Kushal.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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On 2 Apr 2018, at 20:10, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:Bruno,Where you say, """...except that he uses mechanism, which forces to obtained the wave itself from the phenomenology of self-referential arithmetic""", in particular does your phrase "self-referiential arithmetic" refer to, imply, require some sort of nested or hierarchical structure of equations, or a recursion recipe?
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On 3 Apr 2018, at 18:40, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruno,
Who are you calling no one?The stuff inside and out is just NSD ... nested structured-duality.
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Hi Ralph,
On 3 Apr 2018, at 18:40, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:Bruno,Who are you calling no one?The stuff inside and out is just NSD ... nested structured-duality.
Which stuff? What is stuff? I am very skeptical on any notion of stuff and substance. I try hard to never refer to things like that, which provably makes no sense with mechanism, but also, I have never been able to make sense of this (even without mechanism).
BrunoR
Ralph,
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Hi Ralph,
R
Ralph,
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On 6 Apr 2018, at 22:42, John Jay Kineman <john.k...@colorado.edu> wrote:Id like to contribute several points.
1. To say "there is no X" when X is an element of a theory or observation, is silly..Witt is correct, if you number it, you have given it at least relative existence.
Perhaps all it means, howeve, is to clarify, Bruno, that you do not believe in absolute stuff.
I dont either, but certainly things become real and countable from a complex and unsefined origin.
That is what begs explanation because in modern science and largely to present we have formalized it the other way around, experimenting with the idea that there is absolute substance that somehow turns complex. The experimental results are in, it is more parsimonious and explanatory to build science on a natural foundation of complexity. Then it is easy to derive both material 'stuff' and more complex and anticipatory life.
2. Math is much more difficult than numbers,
which are abstractions of natural existence. Limiting it only to numbers is appropriate for mechanisms alone, leaving out contextual causes that characterize complexity and life.
That larger view cannot be reduced to numbers without semantic residue that is actualy the essence of the complex or living system.
3. There are many kinds of knowable differences that don't pertain to differences between things, as such. They pertain to differences between types. "Things" are locally distinct objects of analysis. Local means space and time coordinate differences..i.e, event differences. There is an unbounded set of potential phase difference irrespective of locality.
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On 5 Apr 2018, at 16:33, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:Hi, Bruno,Pardon my slang of "stuff".Notice that in your storyline, part of it involves you starting out with a list of symbols: 0, +, *,s -- all of which have some structure and all of which are supposed to and do spawn recognition of their nested structured~duality -- their associated meanings and values, uses and limits, etc.
Then you pare down your description to form other nested structured~duality expressions doing comparisons (usually with the equals sign (=), or other relational symbols) representing a balance or imbalance comparing of one NSD relative to another or others. And then, it seems to me you express extended 1p, 3p, etc., associations which humans already have,
applying them as traits of features of the initial nested structured~duality [0,+.*,s]. Not to mention ~your obviously nested: s(0), s(s(0)), s(s(s(0)))... structures.
So, inside and out, these artifacts and their associations are all nested structured~duality.
Perhaps, for you, you consider such comparisons and balances of instances of NSD by instances of NSD within instances of NSD as "Mechanism", which you seem to have had a difficult time clarifying or describing to me and others as to what you mean by the term.
Thus, where you say, """...and nobody can even define the whole structure from inside, not even use any name for it""", I notice I do have and use a name for it.
Further, if you notice, I am saying that nested structured~duality (NSD) is a, or the, underlying fundamental tenet.
It is the principle you employ to create your initial list [0,+,*,s], and the same principle you employ to fashion together the subsequent levels of NSD in your instance.
I guess within your instance, your approach is to assume or hypothesize that "mechanism", or the instance of NSD that you begin with [0,+,*,s] and/or arithmetic and/or Turing constructions (which, themselves are yet other instances of NSD), are the fundamental or primitive, or whatever you call it.
But then, ~after and during your descriptive developments, nesting and recursion also emerge in various places.
Why those anomalous appearances?You apparently see it one way, I see it it another.
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Hi Ralph,
Which stuff? What is stuff? I am very skeptical on any notion of stuff and substance. I try hard to never refer to things like that, which provably makes no sense with mechanism, but also, I have never been able to make sense of this (even without mechanism).
BrunoR
Ralph,
Paul
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On 8 Apr 2018, at 21:42, John Jay Kineman <john.k...@colorado.edu> wrote:Bruno,I suppose one can begin with any assumption, but the results will not be the same.
This makes your assumption clear, and it is the root of what I could not comprehend about your approach.
There is no point in referencing Rosen in this case (our prior discussion). He was certainly a 'qualified realist' meaning that he took matter and energy to be real, but not fundamental. On that you might agree,
but not on what might be considered fundamental. For Rosen, and myself, we must consider a complex unity, that is not directly knowable, to be fundamental.
Otherwise there is no escape from the problem of conflating existence with description.
If a complex unity is taken as the foundation, then what we can know are dual aspects of that unity.
Description becomes dual and abstract in the sense that it is 'taken away' or 'out of' that real unity. So Rosen pointed out that there is nothing more abstract than a numerical measurement because it is a severe reduction of the complex reality. It also follows that such analysis -- taking nature apart into abstractions, like numbers -- is irreversible. Synthesis of those abstractions will not return the original ontology.
So, it is fine to stay in the world of numbers and to build descriptions accordingly, but it is a reductive approach that loses something fundamental.
The dual aspects of any description; structure-function, mind-body, subject-object, local-nonlocal, wave-particle, discrete-continuous, behavior-origin -- all necessary complementarities in any descriptive approach known so far, contain an implicit relation between complements. My and Rosen's fundamental reality assumption is that relation itself. Only one of the complements leads to a discrete world that can correspond with numbers.
The other complement is not discrete in space and time, so if numbers are used to describe it one cannot use those dimensions. It is a domain of overlapping potentialities or as some say qualia.
It is a modeling domain where discrete states decided by events imply continuous functions. It inverts the process of abstracting discrete states from a system. The inversion is context dependent, so there is ever complete reversibility. Hence change, hence evolution, hence expansion.
I don't know what qualia are intrinsically except they are the natural memory of events inverted into functions that could produce similar events (recall or materialization). They are the felt experience of an event taken out of locality and perhaps placed in a relativistic locality (microtubules in living beings, the surface of black holes in nature, ?).
Can that nonlocal domain be a numerical phase-space? It is inverse to discrete local existence where numbers can have meaning with regard to events in spacetime. Logically it should be a continuous domain. This is where we use numerical approximation to continuity or infinities. We may still use numbers to describe phase, but then granularity/precision does not correspond to any fundamental difference in identity, only error in description. We must assume continuous functions in nonlocal reality.
Now, if you ask me to prove that the nonlocal domain is continuous and not discrete I would have trouble, because we can only observe discrete results of it.
A difference has to be a noticeable difference. And a Planck limit seems to apply to realizations. But I believe it is the case that too implies a continuous nonlocal domain, because while any difference in the event world must be a discrete difference, the possible values given such discrete pairing are nevertheless continuous. In other words [I need to get confirmation on this] uncertainty is a definite bracket around continuous possibilities.
If that is the case, nature is not per-discretized or prescribed
until you get to discrete realization possibilities that fit into a pre-defined world. The world thus 'selects' from non-descrete possibilities, but may only be able to accept certain values that are allowed by the worldly system doing the selecting. Thus we get discrete energy, spin, etc states that correspond logically with history.
So, I would be highly skeptical of a philosophy bases on a presumed fundamental reality of numbers.
Like Ptolemy who thought circles are perfect so he based his cosmology on circles, because of the power of numerical methods we might think that numbers are perfect and thus base our cosmology on them. But it would be another Ptolemeic system, grounded in the description. In all such mistaken conflations between descriptive methods and the realism of inquiry about presumed nature, as Ive mentioned before, it is like going to a fine restaurant and eating the menu instead of the meal. Neither the numerical description nor the stuff are real by themselves. The context-content relation is our closest notion of reality today, and that approaches the idea of general consciousness.
two ontological (understand that this term also means unknowable)
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Depictions of "Auras". http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=aura&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35466521&biw=1280&bih=771&wrapid=tlif135150329084810&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=mk2OUOjmOYvM0AWYq4DoAQ
Depictions of "Subtle Body." http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&cp=11&gs_id=w&xhr=t&q=subtle+body&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35466521&biw=1280&bih=771&wrapid=tljp1351503699870020&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=NU-OUKmBC_Pa0QWQyoGQCw
Depictions of "Chakras." https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=chakras&hl=en-GB&gbv=2&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=MV9BU_blPMaxhAeBhoHYAg&ved=0CAUQ_AU
Depictions of "Planes of Existence." https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=planes+of+existence+buddhism&hl=en-GB&gbv=2&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=_A9EU-CdMKjG7AaD7IDgAg&ved=0CAUQ_AU
Depictions of Psychedelic-like "Worlds." Sometimes reports from the "other world" suggest that the colours of various beings, and objects can be more "stunning," and "more real" than anything known in the physical universe. In other words, "psychedelic-like". https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=psychedelic+art&hl=en-GB&gbv=2&tbm=isch&oq=psychedelic+art&gs_l=img.12...0.0.0.2844.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac..34.img..0.0.0.gbUOqAcVfMI
Buddhist Thangka Art Such art is meant to represent "higher states," or "worlds" of conciousness. Ofcourse, they can possibly link with "other worlds". https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tangpa+buddhist+tibetan&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=pxxpUqypGfGY1AWxwICwDg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=933#q=buddhist%20thangpa%20art&tbm=isch
Kirlian Photography. By using electricity, and using a special Kirlian "camera" (or something similiar) it is possible to artifically create what appear to be "auras", and other kinds of colourful "psychic energies". However, these are probably not "real" energies as seen by certain types of psychics. Yet, the examples of Kirlian Photography presented here are arguably a good "representation" of what they could look like without artist representations of them seen on other links of this section on Multi-Dimensional Science https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&noj=1&biw=1280&bih=770&q=kirlian%20photography&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=iPWQUc7aGsqu0QW4u4HoAw
Surrealism The "lower" psychic "realms" are said to be similar in nature to Surrealism in art https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=surrealism&safe=strict&biw=1600&bih=752&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Z_2cVYDYK_Hd7QbI8IK4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
What Dreams May Come The images are from a film, and they often depict scenery in the "afterlife" as being "extra colourful" like psychedelic experiences. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=what+dreams+may+come&safe=strict&biw=1600&bih=752&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=APicVYPwKYG9UvKPgbAL&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg#imgrc=_
Patterns Inner experiences may involve in part seeing a variety of patterns that maybe describable, semi-describable, or indeed, indescribable "altogether". https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=patterns&biw=1280&bih=930&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=MbefVdK6OIWjU4rcjrgL&ved=0CC0Q7Ak
Geometry "Other Worlds" may have a variety of geometrical shapes in "certain places". Again, they maybe describable to some extent, or indeed, "indescrible". https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=geometry&hl=en-GB&biw=1280&bih=930&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zbifVff5IcvkUty1g7AL&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
Esoteric Geometry https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=esoteric+geometry&safe=strict&biw=1680&bih=897&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIypia1OeRxwIVro_bCh2BDQe6
Leadbeater, Man Visible, and Invisible https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=leadbeater+man++visible+and+invisible&biw=1280&bih=930&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIkM3et9z2xwIVyZceCh1teguw
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On 8 Apr 2018, at 22:14, John Jay Kineman <john.k...@colorado.edu> wrote:Hi Bruno,
I tried to be as explicit about the relational complexity view as I can in the previous post. Now I copy an excerpt from your latest post to examine precisely where we differ. This excerpt id intriguing to me because in essence you are arguing that computation has all the u infinities that I ascribe to my hypothetical inverse domain, so perhaps there is nothing lost in computationalism. I consider that at least an interesting proposition.
I would t know where to begin comparing what one infinity might contain vs another, except to reason from local to nonlocal in the following way. Every mechanistic description implies a contextual information map between a natural referent and a symbol for it.
This, we at least have an infinite contextualization required to define discrete mechanisms.
Indeed one can show that mechanisms are incomplete, but how we model that incompleteness will decide if it is theoretically consistent with infinite contextualization of the information relation which we already must accept. If it is treated as uncertainty or error in the proximal system then it is not consistent with the provable proposition that contextual information is transcendent. Thus, if I were to accept your argument for computationalism,
which I would like to because I also am limited to computers, it would have to be with the qualification that we numerically represent the infinite holarchy of contextual information relations between apparent 'stuff' in structural terms, and apparent memory of 'stuff' in functional terms.
On that reasoning I would say that we have no assurance that the incompleteness of machines will 'add up' the same way as the contextualization of nature information relations.
How do the uncertainties add up to yield meaningful semantics about the missing qualia?
That to me is the problem with computationalism that is not structured on a modeling relation. Indeed my own proposed informatics approach would be computational, so I must say that I think it is possible. The question boils down to what os being modeled, the mechanism or the relation, and what is being discarded, the uncertainty or the specificity. In both cases I think it must be the latter to preserve images of natural unity.
JohnAfter Gödel, mathematicians noted that to secure the finites, all the infinities are not enough.
The universal machine is not really an explanation, despite its simplicity. It is an unknown, and all its relative incarnation are a promise of difficulties and unpredictability.
which are abstractions of natural existence. Limiting it only to numbers is appropriate for mechanisms alone, leaving out contextual causes that characterize complexity and life.
Yes, but keep in mind that this is already the case for the machine. The partial computable is a very tiny part of the arithmetical truth, and the total computable is a non definable subpart which mirror the whole truth but only partially, at least in the relative situation. The computability theory is mainly the description of layer of non-computability, and unsolvability.
Then, I don’t claim truth, but only testability of the hypothesis that we can survive with an artificial digital brain prosthesis, and then I show that quantum mechanics is quite an ally of computationalism.
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On 9 Apr 2018, at 09:28, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruno,
Where you say, """At some point, when we arithmetize arithmetic, we use number for the symbol “0”, “+” “*”, “s”, “(“ and “)". For exemple we can use odd numbers for each symbol “0” is 3, “s” is 5, “(“ is 7, “)” is 9, etc. We can use the even numbers for the infinitely many variables x, y, z, x1, y1, z1 """, all I see you doing is making up another instance of nested structured~duality.
If you take it another step, you get down to arrays of strings of one's and zeroes or to patterns of higher and lower voltages, etc. And someplace you need to have a look-up table of all your codings.
Okay. So your have nested structural codings running within nested structural codings that others set up and created.
Then what? What is the magic?
Why is it that you seem to say this can ONLY work in arithmetic even though you experience it and observe it working in atomic and molecular arrangements?
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On 14 Apr 2018, at 05:47, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:There is nothing like any arithmetic reality of universal nature. There is an arithmetic theory built on some assumptions to to define, understand and describe nature and Laws governing the nature. For example, 1 plus 1 --2 is an assumption and not a universal fact of nature since in nature 1 entity say 1 tree, 1 proton or 1 dog is never equal to another tree/proton/dog. Therefore, 1 tree plus 1 tree is never equal to 2 trees.
You may argue that number 1 has nothing to do with the existence of 1 tree/1 proton /1 dog.
My point has been that without some discrete objects be it a tree or a proton or a dog AND a conscious mind/consciousness, none of the numbers 1 or 2 can arise or exist at all.
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
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----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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>>>> --
>>>> ----------------------------
>>>> Fifth International Conference
>>>> Science and Scientist - 2017
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>>>> ----------------------------
>>>> Fifth International Conference
>>>> Science and Scientist - 2017
>>>> August 18—19, 2017
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>>>
>>> --
>>> ----------------------------
>>> Fifth International Conference
>>> Science and Scientist - 2017
>>> August 18—19, 2017
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>>> ----------------------------
>>> Fifth International Conference
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>>
>> --
>> ----------------------------
>> Fifth International Conference
>> Science and Scientist - 2017
>> August 18—19, 2017
>> Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
>> http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
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>> ----------------------------
>> Fifth International Conference
>> Science and Scientist - 2017
>> August 18—19, 2017
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> ----------------------------
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> --
> ----------------------------
> Fifth International Conference
> Science and Scientist - 2017
> August 18—19, 2017
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> http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
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--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
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Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
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JK: That to me is the problem with computationalism that is not structured on a modeling relation. Indeed my own proposed informatics approach would be computational, so I must say that I think it is possible. The question boils down to what os being modeled, the mechanism or the relation, and what is being discarded, the uncertainty or the specificity. In both cases I think it must be the latter to preserve images of natural unity.BM: I am not sure why we would have to discard except perhaps the person identity specificity. It is not easy to translate what you say in the language of a universal machine. Maybe I just don’t know yet, but I can’t say that, as it is a bit to much vague. Maybe you could elaborate a bit here. Or ask me other precision so that you would be helped in that task.Best,Bruno
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On 14 Apr 2018, at 15:24, John Jay Kineman <john.k...@colorado.edu> wrote:Bruno, I think you have to give up this argument for numbers as a disembodied primary reality - it is untenable.
We cannot even discuss it without natural realizations such as the physical system carrying this email.
When you refer to the symbol '0' or any other, you have written it - that is the only way it can be known and the only way to test its reality.
Hence only the relation between the idea and its common measurability - a natural referent - can be taken as primary.
The argument for the primacy of numbers does not hold up philosophically or mathematically. It is obviously false to claim that 1+1=2 is syntactically true and general.
I gave a simple demonstration before. It is true only under the restricted and unnatural assumption that all semantic referents are discrete.
One banana plus one banana adds to two bananas. Banaba plus apple ads to two fruit. Banaba plus house = ? So you get to reducing all natural referents to "things" to make simple addition true.
The you claim that nature is only things so your simplification is all that is needed.
It is entirely tautological.
Even mathematics is more than numbers.
Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that semantics cannot be removed from mathematics without making it incomplete.
That is as solid a fact about reality as we have in any domain. So you have to give up this idea that numbers are primary if you want to make any sense at all.
The best shot at something primary with our current knowledge is the relation between logical symbols and natural manifestations of those symbols - that relation itself can be taken as fundamental, not either side of it alone.
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On 14 Apr 2018, at 14:19, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruno,
First, even though I am ignorant in it, I agree that mathematics is a neat and powerful language.
Moreover, I can imagine that the ~thing or universal expression that you are talking about looks or ~is intensely ~real or ~valid or ~universal and ~obvious, etc., to you.
And, you may be correct or on a helpful track, but we, or many members of your audience, are just too ignorant.
Or, as in my case, I've travelled a different path and stumbled upon my own favorite instance of nested structured~duality, that, for a variety of self-less,selfish and ecologically sound reasons I like to repeat and market. Also, I favor my instance because, to me, the storyline grows sort of by itself, once I pick a particular structure and one or more (a set) of dualities.
I seem to hear that you feel that occurs within your storyline also.
As an "outsider" to your storyline, and if you think back to your studies w/ E.coli, where you took the mathematical route, I continued on peering into the aerobic and anaerobic microbiological complexities, there are things that you assert as obvious or foundational, that I read differently.For instance, where you write: """It seems to me that 2+2=4 is more universal, and clearly true than anything about nature, """, notice that "It seems to me" is already equally or more ~universal, clearly true also, or ~valid than 2+2=4.
Yes, if we want to humor you or go along with the mesmerization, the 2+2=4 is agreeable, but even at that, now we need to drill down into what "being agreeable" or "agreed upon" is and/or means.In my storyline, whether I protein-fold out two fingers on each hand and then silently count and repeat the taught vocalization (hoping to say the correct answer), I visualize forming, or actually, re-forming some type of internal representation, say, in some hydrogen-bond stack (that links through protein-folding to influence expressions. Moreover, since, as you request, the inquiry is on agreement between individual humans, the agreeing individuals sort of have to have similar internal representations and conditionings, common shared language, signaling skills and available energy, etc..
So, while you may want to escape the messy complexity of our mostly carbon-water-based nested structural coding,
the only way to do it is through denial or dissociation or something similar, maybe like idealization or going all in on arithmetic realism.
But, as soon as you inquire about getting agreement, the can of worms is free all over the lab bench and beyond. Minimally ~you have invoked or activated nested structure -- riding on the likely rare agreement on mathematic-like relations between our first person and third person (group agreement) perspectives. Internally, of course, this so-called mathematics also goes by the name of stoichiometry, and in aerobic creatures links with the messy nested structural coding within aerobic respiration, that, after a fashion provides energy and protein-folding for an expression.Also, where you suggest 2+2 = 4 is universal, FWIW, I notice for that specific expression there is only the one instance and what you are talking more about is more like there is very broad agreement, you know, because we have most all learned and conditioned our protein-folding within the 3-R's, etc.
Where you focus on the broad agreement on numbers and arithmetic, I have the impression that "everyone" more agrees on the fact that while they breathe they are alive. This seems more universal, to me, since it includes pre-school children and perhaps folks with dyscalculia.
That leads into the seemingly messy entanglements of what you seem to think is the only alternative: material realism or physicalism, which you stepped away from when you opted to study math rather than microbiology.
However, the messy problem is the one that confronts us so we might just as well consider it.Thus we get the informative generalization: reality, the physical and mental realms, and including mathematical expressions, is nested structured~duality.
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On 9 Apr 2018, at 09:28, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruno,
Where you say, """At some point, when we arithmetize arithmetic, we use number for the symbol “0”, “+” “*”, “s”, “(“ and “)". For exemple we can use odd numbers for each symbol “0” is 3, “s” is 5, “(“ is 7, “)” is 9, etc. We can use the even numbers for the infinitely many variables x, y, z, x1, y1, z1 """, all I see you doing is making up another instance of nested structured~duality.
So what?
You could go at any congress, and tell all speakers, “all I see is that you make noise with your mouth”.
And you seem to not even try to explain what you mean by “nested structured-duality”. As far as I have an idea, I do agree with they are everywhere, but the goal is to understand what they are, where they come from, etc.
And the “NSD” you saw in this context can be used to progress toward the understanding that we need not to assume more than elementary arithmetic, on which every schoolboy agree, and usually their parents to.
If you take it another step, you get down to arrays of strings of one's and zeroes or to patterns of higher and lower voltages, etc. And someplace you need to have a look-up table of all your codings.You missed the point. By the coding above, I was illustrating the principle used to show that the elementary arithmetic *reality* (not to confuse with any theory *of* arithmetic) is enough for that purpose. The true relations in arithmetic encodes all the look-up tables, or programs, and their relations.
Okay. So your have nested structural codings running within nested structural codings that others set up and created.Not quite, that others have discovered in arithmetic, before still others implemented-incarnated them in the physical world. But with mechanism we bet, or we were inspired by Nature. I discovered computer science first in the bacteria Escherichia Coli, and just before becoming a biologiste, I discovered that this extraordinary thing I saw in the bacteria, was accomplished by simple number relations. So I decide to study Mathematics and Logic instead.
Then what? What is the magic?The Universal Turing Church Post Kleene Number. Especially the Gödel-Löbian one, which are the universal numbers which knows that they are Universal Numbers (and all the drastic consequences of that).It does not matter to choose very elementary arithmetic, or any system, for the deep theological conclusions.They are unknown which invites themselves to the debate, when if you look inward, you can recognise yourself.They are pearls which mimics all other pearls, and they define a realm of coherent dreams, some transfinitely long, in some sense.
Why is it that you seem to say this can ONLY work in arithmetic even though you experience it and observe it working in atomic and molecular arrangements?It works in all universal number/machine/programs/combinators/…If you dislike the numbers, I could use as well the combinators. It is very easy. K is a combinator, S is a combinator, and then you can combine them so that if x is a combinator, and y is a combinator, then (x y) is a combinator, written xy to avoid to much parenthesis. So, you can enumarate the combinators by they length + alphabetical order: K, S, KK, KS, SK, SS, KKK, K(KK), KKS, K(KS), etc. Note that K(KS) abbreviates the combinators.What are the combinators does not matter, as it should for elementary concepts. Raymond Smullyan seemed to believe they are birds in an magical forests. You might read “How to mock a Mocking Bird” to have the gist of what is a Turing universal <whatever>.Keep in mind I am a scientist, and the digital mechanist hypothesis, at the least, provides the mathematical, indeed arithmetical theory and theories to get precise enough to be testable.
We agree on the nested structure. Any compact two dimensional universal dovetailing has to be infinitely nested, like the Mandelbrot set:Bruno
On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 5 Apr 2018, at 16:33, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:Hi, Bruno,Pardon my slang of "stuff".Notice that in your storyline, part of it involves you starting out with a list of symbols: 0, +, *,s -- all of which have some structure and all of which are supposed to and do spawn recognition of their nested structured~duality -- their associated meanings and values, uses and limits, etc.Not at all. At some point, when we arithmetize arithmetic, we use number for the symbol “0”, “+” “*”, “s”, “(“ and “)". For exemple we can use odd numbers for each symbol “0” is 3, “s” is 5, “(“ is 7, “)” is 9, etc. We can use the even numbers for the infinitely many variables x, y, z, x1, y1, z1Then by the fundamental theorem of arithmetic, which says that all numbers have a *unique* ordered prime decomposition, we can translate in arithmetic a sequence of symbols like "s(0)” by, using the association given above: (2^5) *( 3^7) * (5^3) *(7^9). Here the exposed 2, 3, 5, 7, are the ordered prime numbers.As I said, I assume only classical logic (intutionistic would also work, but it is more tedious, and the theology is made artificially weirder) and the axioms:
0 ≠ s(x)s(x) = s(y) -> x = yx = 0 v Ey(x = s(y))x+0 = xx+s(y) = s(x+y)x*0=0x*s(y)=(x*y)+x
Hi Ralph,
On 3 Apr 2018, at 18:40, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruno,
Who are you calling no one?The stuff inside and out is just NSD ... nested structured-duality.
Which stuff? What is stuff? I am very skeptical on any notion of stuff and substance. I try hard to never refer to things like that, which provably makes no sense with mechanism, but also, I have never been able to make sense of this (even without mechanism).Bruno
R
On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 4:45 AM Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
Ralph,
On 2 Apr 2018, at 20:10, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruno,
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On 14 Apr 2018, at 14:19, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruno,
First, even though I am ignorant in it, I agree that mathematics is a neat and powerful language.
I disagree. Mathematics is not a language at all. You might confuse mathematics and mathematical theories, which of course use some language, but it is always English or Natural language, like in all domain. But the mathematical reality is independent of the language used, and of the theories made to study it.
Moreover, I can imagine that the ~thing or universal expression that you are talking about looks or ~is intensely ~real or ~valid or ~universal and ~obvious, etc., to you.It is not obvious at all. It asks a lot of work to get some familiarity. It is counter-intuitive.
And, you may be correct or on a helpful track, but we, or many members of your audience, are just too ignorant.Or perhaps not enough ignorant. People talks often like if they knew something, like if they knew that there is a primary physical reality. But why? How could they know that? ...
Or, as in my case, I've travelled a different path and stumbled upon my own favorite instance of nested structured~duality, that, for a variety of self-less,selfish and ecologically sound reasons I like to repeat and market. Also, I favor my instance because, to me, the storyline grows sort of by itself, once I pick a particular structure and one or more (a set) of dualities.But you fail on the pedagogical issue.I am a simple mind. I do science because I appreciate its methodology: staring from clear assumption on which every good willing people agree, and from facts we agree on, and trying to explain the facts from the assumption. But in metaphysics, better to be neutral and not provide the answer at the start.
I seem to hear that you feel that occurs within your storyline also.I started from biology and especially molecular genetics, and then, when I realise that elementary arithmetic already emulates the fascinating biological notion of selves, I get the point that mathematics is more fundamental than physics, and that the appearances of the physical was more easy to explain to a universal machine/number than the contrary.
As an "outsider" to your storyline, and if you think back to your studies w/ E.coli, where you took the mathematical route, I continued on peering into the aerobic and anaerobic microbiological complexities, there are things that you assert as obvious or foundational, that I read differently.For instance, where you write: """It seems to me that 2+2=4 is more universal, and clearly true than anything about nature, """, notice that "It seems to me" is already equally or more ~universal, clearly true also, or ~valid than 2+2=4.People argues since a long time on even the meaning of terms like “seem” or “me”. Not on 2+2=4 (when they understand what we are talking about, like in primary school).
Yes, if we want to humor you or go along with the mesmerization, the 2+2=4 is agreeable, but even at that, now we need to drill down into what "being agreeable" or "agreed upon" is and/or means.In my storyline, whether I protein-fold out two fingers on each hand and then silently count and repeat the taught vocalization (hoping to say the correct answer), I visualize forming, or actually, re-forming some type of internal representation, say, in some hydrogen-bond stack (that links through protein-folding to influence expressions. Moreover, since, as you request, the inquiry is on agreement between individual humans, the agreeing individuals sort of have to have similar internal representations and conditionings, common shared language, signaling skills and available energy, etc..Yes, no problem. But biology is not metaphysics. When I studied biology, I was neutral if my life was a material happenings or not. That was the question I wanted to analyse, and eventually, it was clear that if the biological intuition for mechanism is founded, then ultimately the fundamental reality is immaterial. Mechanism leads to an immaterialist monism.
So, while you may want to escape the messy complexity of our mostly carbon-water-based nested structural coding,I don’t want to escape it. I want to explain it, and based it on more serious facts that observation and extrapolation.
the only way to do it is through denial or dissociation or something similar, maybe like idealization or going all in on arithmetic realism.You need to see that it is a consequence of mechanism, my working hypothesis. I don’t claim any truth: I just count the evidences for this or that theory. If physics was still classical, or discrete, I would claim that the evidences are against mechanism and for materialism, but physics appears to confirm mechanism.
But, as soon as you inquire about getting agreement, the can of worms is free all over the lab bench and beyond. Minimally ~you have invoked or activated nested structure -- riding on the likely rare agreement on mathematic-like relations between our first person and third person (group agreement) perspectives. Internally, of course, this so-called mathematics also goes by the name of stoichiometry, and in aerobic creatures links with the messy nested structural coding within aerobic respiration, that, after a fashion provides energy and protein-folding for an expression.Also, where you suggest 2+2 = 4 is universal, FWIW, I notice for that specific expression there is only the one instance and what you are talking more about is more like there is very broad agreement, you know, because we have most all learned and conditioned our protein-folding within the 3-R's, etc.I gave the whole theory: classical logic +
0 ≠ s(x)s(x) = s(y) -> x = yx = 0 v Ey(x = s(y))x+0 = xx+s(y) = s(x+y)x*0=0x*s(y)=(x*y)+x
And, eventually nothing else (beyond the invariance of my consciousness for a digital brain transplant).
Where you focus on the broad agreement on numbers and arithmetic, I have the impression that "everyone" more agrees on the fact that while they breathe they are alive. This seems more universal, to me, since it includes pre-school children and perhaps folks with dyscalculia.Breathing is explained from the numbers (and mechanism). Without mechanism, breathing is pure mystery.Like some others, you confuse the assumption at the meta level of a theory with the theory itself. To explain group theory you need shall and blackboard, but shall and blackboard are not part of the theory of group. On the contrary, we explained how a shark work by using group theory/chemistry.
That leads into the seemingly messy entanglements of what you seem to think is the only alternative: material realism or physicalism, which you stepped away from when you opted to study math rather than microbiology.I remains silent on what I think or believe. I just say that there are more evidence for immaterialism than for materialism.
However, the messy problem is the one that confronts us so we might just as well consider it.Thus we get the informative generalization: reality, the physical and mental realms, and including mathematical expressions, is nested structured~duality.That is a theorem in the mechanist theory, so you should not be unhappy with this. If your nested structure is primitive then you need to explain what they are in a language that everybody can understand, which actually includes the digital machines/numbers.Bruno
Think about it.
On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 3:29 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 14 Apr 2018, at 05:47, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:There is nothing like any arithmetic reality of universal nature. There is an arithmetic theory built on some assumptions to to define, understand and describe nature and Laws governing the nature. For example, 1 plus 1 --2 is an assumption and not a universal fact of nature since in nature 1 entity say 1 tree, 1 proton or 1 dog is never equal to another tree/proton/dog. Therefore, 1 tree plus 1 tree is never equal to 2 trees.It seems to me that 2+2=4 is more universal, and clearly true than anything about nature, which is complex and does not seems at it is, and explained with much more mathematical assumptions, like quantum field, complex numbers, etc.
You may argue that number 1 has nothing to do with the existence of 1 tree/1 proton /1 dog.Yes. I cannot sincerely doubt about the number 1.I cannot conceive waking up and stopping to believe in the number one.But I can conceive waking up, and stopping to believe in tree or in protons.My point has been that without some discrete objects be it a tree or a proton or a dog AND a conscious mind/consciousness, none of the numbers 1 or 2 can arise or exist at all.They do not need to arise. They do not need to exist physically. I have no problem seeing them as eternal idea in the mind of the cosmic consciousness, but with the mechanist assumption, there is a sort of mathematical miracle, as we can listen to the numbers and get the point that they are confronted to a cosmic consciousness and a matter illusion problem, very much like us, and without any other assumption that we can derive “it exists x such that x + 4 = 7” from 3 + 4 = 7.Then we have the quantum mechanics confimation of the most startling consequence of compuationalism, which tends to make me finding plausible that it could be true.The universal consciousness is a quite important concept, and matter too, but to assume them is like staring from the answer, and cannot convince me of anything. I have to start from what everybody agree. I doubt that you disagree with statement like 3+4=7, or 3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2 and its first order logical consequence, like it exists x, y and z such that x^2 + y^2 = z^2. Such triplet (x, y z) are the Pythagorean triples, and were discovered more that 5000 years ago, and have been rediscovered iindependently by others. Similarly nobody has ever found a solution to x^3 + y^3 = z^3, and that absence has been completely proved by Fermat. Then it took 300 years to figure out, by a sophisticated reasoning that for any n bigger than 2 x^n + y^n = z^n has no solutions (except the trivial one (0, 0, 0). But even without the solutions, we are all convinced that either the solution exist, or does not exist, whatever x, y, z represents as long as they obey to a very little set of rules on which we all agree, again, independently of any conception we can have on matter, or on consciousness. Then, consciousness and matter can be explained by relations of that kind, and it put might on both physics, and the discourse of the mystic. And all this can be shown to be necessary if we bet that there is no magic operating in the brain.Bruno
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
On Friday, April 13, 2018, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
> On 9 Apr 2018, at 09:28, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bruno,
> Where you say, """At some point, when we arithmetize arithmetic, we use number for the symbol “0”, “+” “*”, “s”, “(“ and “)". For exemple we can use odd numbers for each symbol “0” is 3, “s” is 5, “(“ is 7, “)” is 9, etc. We can use the even numbers for the infinitely many variables x, y, z, x1, y1, z1 """, all I see you doing is making up another instance of nested structured~duality.
>
> So what?
> You could go at any congress, and tell all speakers, “all I see is that you make noise with your mouth”.
> And you seem to not even try to explain what you mean by “nested structured-duality”. As far as I have an idea, I do agree with they are everywhere, but the goal is to understand what they are, where they come from, etc.
> And the “NSD” you saw in this context can be used to progress toward the understanding that we need not to assume more than elementary arithmetic, on which every schoolboy agree, and usually their parents to.
>
>
>
> If you take it another step, you get down to arrays of strings of one's and zeroes or to patterns of higher and lower voltages, etc. And someplace you need to have a look-up table of all your codings.
>
> You missed the point. By the coding above, I was illustrating the principle used to show that the elementary arithmetic *reality* (not to confuse with any theory *of* arithmetic) is enough for that purpose. The true relations in arithmetic encodes all the look-up tables, or programs, and their relations.
>
>
>
> Okay. So your have nested structural codings running within nested structural codings that others set up and created.
>
> Not quite, that others have discovered in arithmetic, before still others implemented-incarnated them in the physical world. But with mechanism we bet, or we were inspired by Nature. I discovered computer science first in the bacteria Escherichia Coli, and just before becoming a biologiste, I discovered that this extraordinary thing I saw in the bacteria, was accomplished by simple number relations. So I decide to study Mathematics and Logic instead.
>
>
>
> Then what? What is the magic?
>
> The Universal Turing Church Post Kleene Number. Especially the Gödel-Löbian one, which are the universal numbers which knows that they are Universal Numbers (and all the drastic consequences of that).
> It does not matter to choose very elementary arithmetic, or any system, for the deep theological conclusions.
> They are unknown which invites themselves to the debate, when if you look inward, you can recognise yourself.
> They are pearls which mimics all other pearls, and they define a realm of coherent dreams, some transfinitely long, in some sense.
>
> Why is it that you seem to say this can ONLY work in arithmetic even though you experience it and observe it working in atomic and molecular arrangements?
>
> It works in all universal number/machine/programs/combinators/…
> If you dislike the numbers, I could use as well the combinators. It is very easy. K is a combinator, S is a combinator, and then you can combine them so that if x is a combinator, and y is a combinator, then (x y) is a combinator, written xy to avoid to much parenthesis. So, you can enumarate the combinators by they length + alphabetical order: K, S, KK, KS, SK, SS, KKK, K(KK), KKS, K(KS), etc. Note that K(KS) abbreviates the combinators.
> What are the combinators does not matter, as it should for elementary concepts. Raymond Smullyan seemed to believe they are birds in an magical forests. You might read “How to mock a Mocking Bird” to have the gist of what is a Turing universal <whatever>.
> Keep in mind I am a scientist, and the digital mechanist hypothesis, at the least, provides the mathematical, indeed arithmetical theory and theories to get precise enough to be testable.
> We agree on the nested structure. Any compact two dimensional universal dovetailing has to be infinitely nested, like the Mandelbrot set:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIEG0DRMZCE
> Bruno
>
>
>
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On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 3:29 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 14 Apr 2018, at 05:47, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:There is nothing like any arithmetic reality of universal nature. There is an arithmetic theory built on some assumptions to to define, understand and describe nature and Laws governing the nature. For example, 1 plus 1 --2 is an assumption and not a universal fact of nature since in nature 1 entity say 1 tree, 1 proton or 1 dog is never equal to another tree/proton/dog. Therefore, 1 tree plus 1 tree is never equal to 2 trees.It seems to me that 2+2=4 is more universal, and clearly true than anything about nature, which is complex and does not seems at it is, and explained with much more mathematical assumptions, like quantum field, complex numbers, etc.
You may argue that number 1 has nothing to do with the existence of 1 tree/1 proton /1 dog.Yes. I cannot sincerely doubt about the number 1.I cannot conceive waking up and stopping to believe in the number one.But I can conceive waking up, and stopping to believe in tree or in protons.My point has been that without some discrete objects be it a tree or a proton or a dog AND a conscious mind/consciousness, none of the numbers 1 or 2 can arise or exist at all.They do not need to arise. They do not need to exist physically. I have no problem seeing them as eternal idea in the mind of the cosmic consciousness, but with the mechanist assumption, there is a sort of mathematical miracle, as we can listen to the numbers and get the point that they are confronted to a cosmic consciousness and a matter illusion problem, very much like us, and without any other assumption that we can derive “it exists x such that x + 4 = 7” from 3 + 4 = 7.Then we have the quantum mechanics confimation of the most startling consequence of compuationalism, which tends to make me finding plausible that it could be true.The universal consciousness is a quite important concept, and matter too, but to assume them is like staring from the answer, and cannot convince me of anything. I have to start from what everybody agree. I doubt that you disagree with statement like 3+4=7, or 3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2 and its first order logical consequence, like it exists x, y and z such that x^2 + y^2 = z^2. Such triplet (x, y z) are the Pythagorean triples, and were discovered more that 5000 years ago, and have been rediscovered iindependently by others. Similarly nobody has ever found a solution to x^3 + y^3 = z^3, and that absence has been completely proved by Fermat. Then it took 300 years to figure out, by a sophisticated reasoning that for any n bigger than 2 x^n + y^n = z^n has no solutions (except the trivial one (0, 0, 0). But even without the solutions, we are all convinced that either the solution exist, or does not exist, whatever x, y, z represents as long as they obey to a very little set of rules on which we all agree, again, independently of any conception we can have on matter, or on consciousness. Then, consciousness and matter can be explained by relations of that kind, and it put might on both physics, and the discourse of the mystic. And all this can be shown to be necessary if we bet that there is no magic operating in the brain.Bruno
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
On Friday, April 13, 2018, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
> On 9 Apr 2018, at 09:28, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bruno,
> Where you say, """At some point, when we arithmetize arithmetic, we use number for the symbol “0”, “+” “*”, “s”, “(“ and “)". For exemple we can use odd numbers for each symbol “0” is 3, “s” is 5, “(“ is 7, “)” is 9, etc. We can use the even numbers for the infinitely many variables x, y, z, x1, y1, z1 """, all I see you doing is making up another instance of nested structured~duality.
>
> So what?
> You could go at any congress, and tell all speakers, “all I see is that you make noise with your mouth”.
> And you seem to not even try to explain what you mean by “nested structured-duality”. As far as I have an idea, I do agree with they are everywhere, but the goal is to understand what they are, where they come from, etc.
> And the “NSD” you saw in this context can be used to progress toward the understanding that we need not to assume more than elementary arithmetic, on which every schoolboy agree, and usually their parents to.
>
>
>
> If you take it another step, you get down to arrays of strings of one's and zeroes or to patterns of higher and lower voltages, etc. And someplace you need to have a look-up table of all your codings.
>
> You missed the point. By the coding above, I was illustrating the principle used to show that the elementary arithmetic *reality* (not to confuse with any theory *of* arithmetic) is enough for that purpose. The true relations in arithmetic encodes all the look-up tables, or programs, and their relations.
>
>
>
> Okay. So your have nested structural codings running within nested structural codings that others set up and created.
>
> Not quite, that others have discovered in arithmetic, before still others implemented-incarnated them in the physical world. But with mechanism we bet, or we were inspired by Nature. I discovered computer science first in the bacteria Escherichia Coli, and just before becoming a biologiste, I discovered that this extraordinary thing I saw in the bacteria, was accomplished by simple number relations. So I decide to study Mathematics and Logic instead.
>
>
>
> Then what? What is the magic?
>
> The Universal Turing Church Post Kleene Number. Especially the Gödel-Löbian one, which are the universal numbers which knows that they are Universal Numbers (and all the drastic consequences of that).
> It does not matter to choose very elementary arithmetic, or any system, for the deep theological conclusions.
> They are unknown which invites themselves to the debate, when if you look inward, you can recognise yourself.
> They are pearls which mimics all other pearls, and they define a realm of coherent dreams, some transfinitely long, in some sense.
>
> Why is it that you seem to say this can ONLY work in arithmetic even though you experience it and observe it working in atomic and molecular arrangements?
>
> It works in all universal number/machine/programs/combinators/…
> If you dislike the numbers, I could use as well the combinators. It is very easy. K is a combinator, S is a combinator, and then you can combine them so that if x is a combinator, and y is a combinator, then (x y) is a combinator, written xy to avoid to much parenthesis. So, you can enumarate the combinators by they length + alphabetical order: K, S, KK, KS, SK, SS, KKK, K(KK), KKS, K(KS), etc. Note that K(KS) abbreviates the combinators.
> What are the combinators does not matter, as it should for elementary concepts. Raymond Smullyan seemed to believe they are birds in an magical forests. You might read “How to mock a Mocking Bird” to have the gist of what is a Turing universal <whatever>.
> Keep in mind I am a scientist, and the digital mechanist hypothesis, at the least, provides the mathematical, indeed arithmetical theory and theories to get precise enough to be testable.
> We agree on the nested structure. Any compact two dimensional universal dovetailing has to be infinitely nested, like the Mandelbrot set:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIEG0DRMZCE
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
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On 15 Apr 2018, at 22:31, john.kineman <john.k...@colorado.edu> wrote:Bruno, referencing your last comment, it is not vague. Very precise question. In a modeling relation there are information relations between a formal system and its referent (Rosen called it a natural system, but I won't say that since you are discarding nature).
Clearly any formal system is about something - it cannot exist alone,
although I sense that you try to get that result from your arguments against "stuff". The question is not if there is "something" the symbolic, mathematical, numerical, or formal system is about, the question at hand is if that "stuff" is fundamental as it was taken to be in modern, classical physics. We agree that it is not. You then argue that the numbers are fundamental, which to me is an equal and opposite error.
What is this desire to peg one side or the other of an obvious relation as fundamental?
So, I'm not asking about this, I'm informing you that it is a relation and that it makes more sense epistemologically to peg the relation as fundamental.
Then consciousness is easily associated with the relation - the information coding between objects and subjects, so consciousness is fundamental. QED.
If there is a question for you to answer about this, it is why in any stretch of logic you would want to call this a mechanism, which is the one thing it is provably not.
If you model the relation and consider that fundamental, it can produce images (models) of mechanisms and also complex living systems.
Mechanism cannot model the important aspect of a complex or living system,
which is precisely this information relation; it models a reduced aspect.
And then, as I interpret your arguments, you tautologically assume that nature must be nothing more than this reduction, plus unknowability.
But if you reify the relation itself, what mechanism must represent as uncertainty and unknowability (or an infinite regress of mechanisms), can be modeled directly - the relation between a defining context and that which it defines, not restricted to mechanism.
Indeed, that schema consists of many mechanistic models, but they are contained in contextual models, and the relation between context and mechanism is not itself mechanistic. Thus you preserve true complexity and still get to write mechanistic descriptions. But of course if you do not assume a nature that has more to it than mechanisms,
then mechanisms are sufficient for everything you are looking at because you are not looking at everything.
We have done this for centuries. I don't mean to be personally challenging here - all systems of description may have tremendous value so I wouldn't deem to attack the formalism you have created or its presumed value -- it is only the claim that it is the best approach possible or that it somehow achieves some completeness.
Another point I'll throw in just to make myself a better target, I think the computational approach you describe must result in materialism if its foundation is numbers; it just hasn't been carried out to its logical result yet. That is my impression.
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On 16 Apr 2018, at 16:00, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruno,
So what? So what?! That's a good question. Thanks.My impression on the "So what?", is that before, or say, during the wrangling in a paradigm shift or transition, you know, when some individual scribbles out the suitably transcended expression, the individual, or several different individuals, need to forge/form the different, more general expression or model -- different from ~prior ones -- but also helpful in diagnosing the anomalous one(s). Me noticing and expressing that reality is nested structured~duality is an instance of that type of contribution. Previously we had no name (okay, perhaps just in our western linguistic community, but maybe also in the entire global affair) for the underlying principle. Now, we do.
So we end up with a handy universal generalization that we get to use as another tool, mostly in analysis and comparisons.
For instance, where you write (elsewhere) : """It seems to me that 2+2=4 is more universal, and clearly true than anything about nature, "”"
the "it seems to me" part is a rather gangly, equally large instance of nested structured~duality making a idealized and, I think, dissociated or abstracted reference about the "2+2 = 4" instance of NSD. Without the tool, I might fall for the mesmerization and follow the breadcrumbs not noticing it is front-loaded. Yes, yes, 2+2 = 4, but what manners of molecular and energetic transactions are also involved in "agreeing..." and expressing agreement (or inhibiting critical thinking)?
Minimally, in a re-clarification of "It seems to me...(and everyone in the audience must surely agree...)", I believe you would have to reference some large masses of arithmetic for yourself and each of the individuals, and another large collection of arithmetic representing or providing as "agreements", etc.,
and in that you likely would also need to admit that say, the teachings of arithmetic from one generation of individuals DO get nested into the nested structural coding of subsequent generations of individuals which also emerge from their ecological, biological and genetic, in utero priors. That gets messy and cross-links
with a lot of ~physical stuff.
And in that approach, which I think your storyline leaves as "an exercise for the student”,
AFTER they buy into the far distant possible success of some sort of substitution at some sort level of substitution level, I think it is rather clear that what you are really proposing is symbolizing the various features and aspects of reality just in abstract mathematical terms —
more or less like a call-out for arithmetic realism.
That effort is probably fine for you or any one else to do, but from my perspective, applying the tool of NSD,
I notice that since you don't acknowledge the underlying general principle of nested structured~duality explicitly,
it runs wild and rampant within your storyline and, in essence, reveals the contradictions that are rather naturally embedded in your slightly off-base storyline.
You jump back and forth from inherited ancient physical to/from metaphysical levels and then, after a long lull, herein point at alleged "substitution levels" and yet even though you and your storyline apparently are dependent on there being such inherent nested structure, ~you don't formally acknowledge the underlying principle.
Like a fish swimming in water, you don't see the nested structure or the nested structured~duality as fundamental.
It's too familiar or too general for you to see.
Plus, the underlying general principle has already given the xyz-cube/subjective-objective instance which comes along with the many shiny number objects and computational relationships, in which your digital mechanistic storyline is deeply immersed.That is, you make no explicit provision or acknowledgement of the operable underlying general principle in your tenets and storyline. That is, you leave the underlying general principle among the unknowns even though you are obviously invoking it and depending upon it.
I get that within the dominant cube/subjective-objective instance your approach seems pretty rational: if or since the tiny chunks of matter are proving elusive, well, just erase ontology and hypothesize a purely mathematical representation/fabric -- particularly if you can ignore of deny the nesting and recursion and various wave-particle rerpesentations.An alternative is to go back to the well and switch mathematical foundations. Pull the five ways to align four rod magnets along radii of tetrahedron out of the hat and participants instantly gets analog math that yields physical intuition on variable mass density multiple states, a look and feel model of our and our enfolding environment's sp^3 hybridized bonding pattern, along with a rather clear *feel* for the underlying general principle of nested structured~duality.Then one can look back and observe that the underlying general principle is actually objective -- a repeating pattern. Pick a structure; pick a duality; nest things outward to their limits. Thus we have cube/subjective-objective; Tao/yin-yang; Tetrahedron/attraction-repulsion (attraction +- nested spin); digital substitution at some (nested) substitution level, etc.Within the prevailing cube/subjective-objective paradigm boundary, perhaps your storyline works out -- humans create human-like substitution products or mutations --- more instances of nested structured~duality. But why not introduce the underlying general principle and then try to cooperate with it? Why not change scientific paradigms?This not to say your mathematical expressions that you contribute and contribute to, are flawed or not helpful. They are just incomplete, not the complete story, and in many ways, not a good broad spectrum approximation to foster the types of intuition (physical, emotional, etc.,). In addition to the unreasonable effective of abstract mathematics, there are also other ways to skin a cat, even Schrodinger's cat/dead-live.The underlying general principle of nested structured~duality makes that clear. In addition to doing ditigal substitutions on brains, another option is just to change tenets of our "working" paradigm. For those who can grasp it, NSD is just a simple, terse approximation which allows ~seeing reality, not just as tiny chunks of matter, or as just stacks of numbers, but as something different and perhaps new, as the underlying common denominator. Considering nested structured~duality leads to ~seeing reality as nested structural coding -- of reality as nested fields within nested fields -- and that prompts for people appreciating, let's say, multidimensional resonance. Yes, it has digital and analog and computational-like representations, but it is not just one of those alone.
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On 16 Apr 2018, at 19:11, Whit Blauvelt <wh...@csmind.com> wrote:On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 11:05:57AM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 14 Apr 2018, at 15:24, John Jay Kineman <john.k...@colorado.edu>
wrote:
We cannot even discuss it without natural realizations such as the physical
system carrying this email.
That is right, but that does not prove that those natural realisation are
material. It could be like a video-game, given that those video game exist in
arithmetic.
Bruno,
On the one hand, you propose a proof that IF a basically functionalist
substitution of parts for organs procedure preserves consciousness THEN
Aristotelian materialistic physics fails. So where most functionalists are
physicalists, you're not. That's a fascinating, and unusual -- perhaps
entirely orginal -- stance.
On the other, you now bring in the "How do we know we're not in a
simulation" discussion that, to be sure, many functionalists are fascinated
by. Yet the video games as-we-know-them exist on physical substrates.
Something has to hold or contain and provide pathways for the numbers, and
constrain their interactions and iterations.
Now, Turing theory holds that the same routines can be instantantiated upon
many different substraits -- thus allowing the sort of substitution of quite
different parts beneath the same functional routines, as you posit. But you
seem to claim that math can _also_ be implemented, instantiated on a void
substrate.
That may have no more problem, logically, than physicalist claims that
matter emerges from breaks in the symmetry of the void. So in that sense it
doesn't tilt the argument against your anti-physicalist claims. Each stance
has the same apparent shortcoming -- explaining the void as a substrate for
a lawful, emergent realm.
Yet, given the shared assumption, why should we presume math takes priority,
is as it were the first to emerge from the void?
It may be that whatever
first emerges, to be lawful, has to include mathmaticalization among its key
attributes. If so math is in any case essential. But why should you suppose
it should be uniquely so? Why not co-essential with other attributes of the
first-emerged?
Best,
Whit
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Hi Ralph,
On 16 Apr 2018, at 16:00, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:Bruno,So what? So what?! That's a good question. Thanks.My impression on the "So what?", is that before, or say, during the wrangling in a paradigm shift or transition, you know, when some individual scribbles out the suitably transcended expression, the individual, or several different individuals, need to forge/form the different, more general expression or model -- different from ~prior ones -- but also helpful in diagnosing the anomalous one(s). Me noticing and expressing that reality is nested structured~duality is an instance of that type of contribution. Previously we had no name (okay, perhaps just in our western linguistic community, but maybe also in the entire global affair) for the underlying principle. Now, we do.You lost me here. I am a simple mind Ralph.
So we end up with a handy universal generalization that we get to use as another tool, mostly in analysis and comparisons.For instance, where you write (elsewhere) : """It seems to me that 2+2=4 is more universal, and clearly true than anything about nature, "”"Yes, Because there a few things between me and 456, say. I have never see people disagreeing on 456, where people disagree on most object in the mundane life. I know, or so I believe, the number 456. But I don’t know what is a chair. Yes, it is nested structured duality, but some will say it is a collection of singularities in a continuous complex quantum field, other will say that it is a set in a model of ZF, other will tell me it is figment in the mind of a sleepy god, and perhaps some of those views are true simulataneously, but then to explain all this on a serious base, we must start from agreeing on some thing, and most people agree on 456, even if they disagree on its role in metaphysics, but that is not important, as the metaphysics is driven by the metaphysical assumption that we can survive with a digital brain.
To define digital, we need to assume that everyone agree on each of the following idea, which I hope you understand and believe: it is only a technical sum up of what we learn in high school(*).(*). Classical logic +0 ≠ s(x)s(x) = s(y) -> x = yx = 0 v Ey(x = s(y))x+0 = xx+s(y) = s(x+y)x*0=0x*s(y)=(x*y)+xMost adult believes in this, but some can doubt because they don’t understand the notation. Here s is the successors, and for example“x + s(y) = s(x + y) means the same than x + (y + 1) = (x + y) + 1. It provides even a rule to compute the addition of the two numbers.
Now the beauty is that by using just those principle + the usual induction axioms,
we get a notion of “a number believe in the axiom above”, and the interesting things happens when we ask that numbers what he thinks about all that.
It is a long and tedious part, but once we get the idea, we can go quicker and quicker, with the assurance that we don’t introduce any more assumption that those above.
I can do that with another language, and without numbers, also, like with the combinators, and then the axioms are even shorter to describe, as it is simply((K x) y) = x(((S x) y) z) = ((x z) (y z))You would be a kid on the SK planet, and I would be your math teacher, I would ask you to compute ((K K) K). It is very easy, by the application of the first axiom ((K x) y) = x, with x = K and y = K, you see that ((K K) K) is K.
I could have used the Turing machine, which are finite set of quadruples aBCd with a and d in an alphabet for internal configurations, and B and C in an alphabet of symbols. aBCd means if I am in state a, and see B on the tape, then I overwrite C and I put myself in configuration d. That leads to the original definition of computations.
They seem different, but they can mimic each others, the numbers could mimic a combinators mimicking a Turing machine, and they do that all the “time”, out of time, in the arithmetical reality.
the "it seems to me" part is a rather gangly, equally large instance of nested structured~duality making a idealized and, I think, dissociated or abstracted reference about the "2+2 = 4" instance of NSD. Without the tool, I might fall for the mesmerization and follow the breadcrumbs not noticing it is front-loaded. Yes, yes, 2+2 = 4, but what manners of molecular and energetic transactions are also involved in "agreeing..." and expressing agreement (or inhibiting critical thinking)?You seem to want to solve the conundrum before we put some precise piece of the puzzle on the table, so that we see the holes we still have to explain.
And I still don’t know what you mean by nested duality structure. You need to explain it in a language that the scientists can understand. So is it the language of physics, biology, metaphysics, mathematics, etc. What are you assuming.
Minimally, in a re-clarification of "It seems to me...(and everyone in the audience must surely agree...)", I believe you would have to reference some large masses of arithmetic for yourself and each of the individuals, and another large collection of arithmetic representing or providing as "agreements", etc.,Arithmetic is not important as such a priori. The key notion will be provability and computability, and the nuances impose by the incompleteness theorems.
That is the advantage of the cmputationalist hypothesis: there is already an extraordinary developed theory concerning the digital numbers/machine/combinators, etc.Of course it is bad news for those who dislike studying mathematics.
But the relation between mathematics and theology run deeper. It is only the “modern” who lost the traditional links. The boring God/Non-God debate hide the original question, which is about which if more fundamental: physics or mathematics, or theology? The idea is that one, the ontology, explains better the two others, phenomenologically.
and in that you likely would also need to admit that say, the teachings of arithmetic from one generation of individuals DO get nested into the nested structural coding of subsequent generations of individuals which also emerge from their ecological, biological and genetic, in utero priors. That gets messy and cross-linksI would say structured and nested!
But that is what already happens in your laptop. There are many layers of universality between the transistor boolean configuration, which is a physical universal number/combinators/Turing-machine, and the machine language, then C++, then higher level up to your mail application.
with a lot of ~physical stuff.Yes, apparently, and ultimately: necessary apparently: space/time/energy/field/quantum analytical mathematics appears as the mathematical border of the mind of the universal machine/number/combinators/…In a precise way so that we can compare the physics in the mind of the universal entity, and the physics outside. The difference measures our degree of non computationalism (or being failed by normal daemon, like our descendent income account, but that is newly possible).
And in that approach, which I think your storyline leaves as "an exercise for the student”,?I solve all the exercises that even one student cannot do. So ask, but I am not sure you really want to.
AFTER they buy into the far distant possible success of some sort of substitution at some sort level of substitution level, I think it is rather clear that what you are really proposing is symbolizing the various features and aspects of reality just in abstract mathematical terms —Not really. I start from an assumption believe by many people: mechanism: the brain is only a natural physical universal numbers/computers/intepreter/combinators/… That obeys a mathematics, well described in many books. May fetich bible is Kleene’s “Introduction to Metamathematics”, but I have many others.Then I reason, and I do it in two ways:By thought experiences, so that even kids can get the points,By translating the whole problems in arithmetic using Gödel’s technics. Here I benefit from a wonderful theorem, due to Solovay, which gives the vey notion of believer to get a full neoplatonic theology, which includes the physics, in relation with what physics has to be, which again can be understood intuitively with the thought experiences.more or less like a call-out for arithmetic realism.In my context, it was just to avoid ultra-finitism. I assume less than any scientists, except some mathematical logiciens, but even them use strong logic to study vey weak logical system. Or if someone believe only in addition, or in abelian group. There are rich and complex non Turing universal mathematical structure, but we live in a reality where they exist, even if only locally hereby, but I have never heard of parents taking back their kids from school when they are taught that there is no bigger natural number.I assume very few things. Less than most scientists and philosophers. During the thought experience, we can stay neutral on the nature of the physical reality, which is of course assumed, if only as decor for the reasoning.I do not work at a level where we can agree or disagree. Only at a level where we can understand or do not understand.
That effort is probably fine for you or any one else to do, but from my perspective, applying the tool of NSD,That you keep undefined. Three words is not a theory.
I notice that since you don't acknowledge the underlying general principle of nested structured~duality explicitly,This is weird.it runs wild and rampant within your storyline and, in essence, reveals the contradictions that are rather naturally embedded in your slightly off-base storyline.?You jump back and forth from inherited ancient physical to/from metaphysical levels and then, after a long lull, herein point at alleged "substitution levels" and yet even though you and your storyline apparently are dependent on there being such inherent nested structure, ~you don't formally acknowledge the underlying principle.It is because it is like sets, or numbers. They are everywhere, and thus are not interesting as they explains too much things. I prefer to go top-down, from some hypothesis which makes sense for many people (who sometimes believe it without knowing), and get a surprising consequence, i.e. surprising for the believer in Aristotle primitive matter: it vanishes, like ether and phlogiston.
Like a fish swimming in water, you don't see the nested structure or the nested structured~duality as fundamental.Fundamental it can be. I will see. But it cannot be a primitive thing, or you have to be able to define it in some language (like first or second order logic: that can be done for all math, economy, laws and physics) and then, if it is not computable, explains the role of the non computable parts.
t's too familiar or too general for you to see.I cannot say without more precisions on it. Sometimes it makes me thing of category theory, most the times it makes me thing of recursion: the mother of all finite and infinite testings in computer science.
Plus, the underlying general principle has already given the xyz-cube/subjective-objective instance which comes along with the many shiny number objects and computational relationships, in which your digital mechanistic storyline is deeply immersed.That is, you make no explicit provision or acknowledgement of the operable underlying general principle in your tenets and storyline. That is, you leave the underlying general principle among the unknowns even though you are obviously invoking it and depending upon it.That is not correct. I put *all* the cards on the table. And I use cards known by all people in each field that we have to cross. Now, not so much people knows simultaneously even just the base of quantum physics, mathematical logic, and platonic metaphysics/philosophy/theology.
Yet, all my definition are the standard one, in each filed crossed. That is why it has been a PhD in Computer Science.
I get that within the dominant cube/subjective-objective instance your approach seems pretty rational: if or since the tiny chunks of matter are proving elusive, well, just erase ontology and hypothesize a purely mathematical representation/fabric -- particularly if you can ignore of deny the nesting and recursion and various wave-particle rerpesentations.An alternative is to go back to the well and switch mathematical foundations. Pull the five ways to align four rod magnets along radii of tetrahedron out of the hat and participants instantly gets analog math that yields physical intuition on variable mass density multiple states, a look and feel model of our and our enfolding environment's sp^3 hybridized bonding pattern, along with a rather clear *feel* for the underlying general principle of nested structured~duality.Then one can look back and observe that the underlying general principle is actually objective -- a repeating pattern. Pick a structure; pick a duality; nest things outward to their limits. Thus we have cube/subjective-objective; Tao/yin-yang; Tetrahedron/attraction-repulsion (attraction +- nested spin); digital substitution at some (nested) substitution level, etc.Within the prevailing cube/subjective-objective paradigm boundary, perhaps your storyline works out -- humans create human-like substitution products or mutations --- more instances of nested structured~duality. But why not introduce the underlying general principle and then try to cooperate with it? Why not change scientific paradigms?This not to say your mathematical expressions that you contribute and contribute to, are flawed or not helpful. They are just incomplete, not the complete story, and in many ways, not a good broad spectrum approximation to foster the types of intuition (physical, emotional, etc.,). In addition to the unreasonable effective of abstract mathematics, there are also other ways to skin a cat, even Schrodinger's cat/dead-live.The underlying general principle of nested structured~duality makes that clear. In addition to doing ditigal substitutions on brains, another option is just to change tenets of our "working" paradigm. For those who can grasp it, NSD is just a simple, terse approximation which allows ~seeing reality, not just as tiny chunks of matter, or as just stacks of numbers, but as something different and perhaps new, as the underlying common denominator. Considering nested structured~duality leads to ~seeing reality as nested structural coding -- of reality as nested fields within nested fields -- and that prompts for people appreciating, let's say, multidimensional resonance. Yes, it has digital and analog and computational-like representations, but it is not just one of those alone.It is not a final thing. In the deep “soccer” play between Aristotle and Plato, it is just that Plato win the last match.
And understanding what is the universal machine (the big discovery of Babbage-Post-Turing-Church-Kleene of last century, a mathematical discovery) the Pythagorean get reason and tools to proceed.
Bruno
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Knowledge is not a product of hyper-intellectual imagination. Knowledge is that which distinguishes reality from illusion for the benefit of all. — Bhagavat Purana 1.1.2 describes this as the highest truth.[1]
“The human understanding is no dry light, but receives an infusion from the will and affections; whence proceed sciences which may be called “sciences as one would.” For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes. Therefore he rejects difficult things from impatience of research; sober things, because they narrow hope; the deeper things of nature, from superstition; the light of experience, from arrogance and pride, lest his mind should seem to be occupied with things mean and transitory; things not commonly believed, out of deference to the opinion of the vulgar. Numberless in short are the ways, and sometimes imperceptible, in which the affections color and infect the understanding.” — Francis Bacon, Novum Organon (1620)
Modern science as it is practiced today is blind to the role of the conceptual framework/form that determines the particularities/material content inseparable from their form, and thus deals with mere abstractions or half-truths instead of the concrete reality or organic whole.
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Namaste.Forgive us Paul, but we pray you may consider taking a more Quaker-like, friendly and accommodating look at this. We are not talking about stereotypes, slurs or religion.It is not enough to give a knee-jerk verbal condemnation of anyone who tries to critically explain the abstract nature of modern science. We may at least try to examine the reasoning behind it. Perhaps you are not familiar with the plethora of philosophical studies of modern science that have come to a similar conclusion about the nature of modern science.
If first-hand observation is the foundation of all foundations concerning our conscious experiences, formations of meaning, understanding and explanations of universal phenomena, and if these have to be coupled with our sharing of all the above with each other and acceptance of the common ones in order to fulfill the tenets of Science, then we do have a case for 'personal science'.
Obviously, we do not yet know of ways in which one entity can go through the exact same conscious experiences of another or more. Are there, or have there been, exceptions to this condition, any at all?
On 24 Apr 2018, at 15:22, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Ralph Frost wrote:>"Mechanism is the belief that natural wholes (principally living things) are like complicated machines or artifacts, >composed of parts lacking any intrinsic relationship to each other. Thus, the source of an apparent thing's activities i>s not the whole itself, but its parts or an external influence on the parts.”
BMP: This seems to nicely point out the difference between the modern mechanistic idea of atomic/molecular matter and Aristotle's [as well as Hegel's and others] inclusion of the conceptual thinking that necessarily constitutes what we call an organism, because empirical intuition or analysis excludes the conceptual contribution involved in recognizing an organism qua organism. Aristotle's insight into 'final cause' is what Hegel and others recognize as the Concept that is invoked when recognizing an organism as an implicit unity of different members or an individual.The next step in a progressive scientific revolution has to come to terms with the role of conceptions in a scientific understanding of things. Concepts involve the activity of thinking, and without comprehending that active nature of what we call 'things' or 'stuff' we cannot properly conceive actuality - which is essentially active and not the abstract petrified particles (particulars) which are only instantaneous moments of the actual.
Sincerely,Bhakti Madhava Puri
From: Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] What is "stuff"?
Bruno,Is "Computationalism is the view that intelligent behavior is causally explained by computations performed by the agent's cognitive system (or brain).1 In roughly equivalent terms, computationalism says that cognition is com- putation.", what you mean by the term 'computationalism'?If not, can you clarify, please?Also, "Mechanism is the belief that natural wholes (principally living things) are like complicated machines or artifacts, composed of parts lacking any intrinsic relationship to each other. Thus, the source of an apparent thing's activities is not the whole itself, but its parts or an external influence on the parts."Or, if not these, how is it that you define your terms in your experimental design, your instance of nested structured~duality?Thanks.Best regards,Ralph Frost, Ph.D.Changing the scientific paradigm.
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----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
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Dear Paul and other friends,Namaste. The use of terms like 'sweeping assertions' and presumptions of how i would act are inappropriate, wholly inapplicable to me and contrary to evidence. Some simple rules of exchange for this list have been set forth, namely humility, tolerance, and respect toward others. This is expected of everyone including myself. Kindly let us remain faithful to that.
It may be that you are unfamiliar with Kant or unable to follow the logic here,
Dear Paul and friendsNamaste.Concerning the exchange:BMP It may be that you are unfamiliar with Kant or unable to follow the logic here,PW: As for logic, the contradiction between the two previous paragraphs should be obvious to anyone.Reply:You are mistaken. There is no disrespect intended at all. The word 'may' in my sentence indicates a query
Thank you for your observations, Puri Maharajaji. Isn't it true that we are searching for 'commonality' of truth through both modes, viz., 'I that is We', and 'We that is I'? Even then, don't we have a case for 'personal Science', a integrated set of direct conscious
experiences that only each individual has access to and goes through completely exclusive of others? Commonality can then be had if and only if the individually experienced truths are shared, experimented with by others individually, verified and accepted.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/1488403016.1520556.1524818333096%40mail.yahoo.com.
-B.M. Puri Maharaja on April 24, 2018 wrote:>Einstein also admonished,>>“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”
[S.P.] But what about the idea/concept/principle of irreducible complexity? Is there a counterpart of this idea in Vedanta?
.For me, "everything" consists of the systems. But, a system (like the atom, the living organism, the society, the galaxy, etc.), to function, must be irreducibly complex, but not "be made as simple as possible"..
On 25 Apr 2018, at 16:58, Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:The statements that I inserted in quotes in my post about Mechanism and Computationalism are not my words or understanding (because I am still seeking a description of Mechanism as Bruno uses it), but those statements were from Googling for "mechanism philosophy", etc. I should have made note of that.
RalphOn Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 9:22 AM, 'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:Ralph Frost wrote:>"Mechanism is the belief that natural wholes (principally living things) are like complicated machines or artifacts, >composed of parts lacking any intrinsic relationship to each other.
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Bhakti Madhava Puri on April 28, 2018 wrote:>The teachings of the great philosophers, East and West, are>already accepted by many..[S.P.] Did these "great philosophers" solve the problem of consciousness? No? Then I have no interest in their views. I, myself, am a self-sufficient thinker. I produce a new knowledge which cannot be found in the libraries. I do have my own original solution and I see the sense of discussing anything only with other thinkers who also have got their solutions. If I use the concept of the Earth as a globe, I have no interest to discuss the ideas like "the flat Earth". I have no interest to publish my papers, say, in the Journal of Consciousness Studies or to participate in Tucson Conferences where people are discussing/complaining why they cannot solve what they call the "hard problem of consciousness"..So, I have constructed the Applied ADC Theory (for details, scroll this thread down). Being an applied theory itself, it can be tested/falsified. This is what I take an interest in, and what I would like to discuss. The Applied ADC Theory predicts that whatever intellectual product a subject of cognitive activity constructs, it will necessary be of one of four possible levels -- of the D-level, GS-level, AT-level, or MT-level..For example, if you formulate an assertion that there is a pillar in Delhi of 7.21 m high made of 99,9...% iron and that it is rust-resistant, you create the D-level intellectual product: you describe the object and provide the raw experimental findings -- the results of measurements and chemical analyses..If you say that there are other iron poles and other artefacts in India and throughout the World with similar physical/chemical properties, and you hypothesize that, maybe, there was a very technologically developed tradition of metal manufacturing two millennia ago, you, thereby, create the GS-level intellectual product: you consider many objects, generalize and systematize the collected data and formulate a certain hypothesis based on the available firmly established facts. By the way, the same facts may be generalized and systematized in different ways, so that we may have much differing hypotheses..If you say that the pillars and other artefacts of such physical properties can be produced only in the oxygen-free environment (say, in outer space), you, thereby, create the AT-level intellectual product: you explain something and predict something. To test your statement, we would have to move the steel-making plant into space and to try to produce the iron of certain purity..If you say that you believe that the pillar of Dehli and similar artefacts were produced by the gods from Sirius, you, thereby, create the MT-level intellectual product: you just announce your beliefs/suppositions/postulates/axioms, which, by definition, require no proofs -- the others may either adopt your beliefs or reject them..So, to test/falsify my Applied ADC Theory, you have to formulate an assertion which would not belong to any of the mentioned above four levels of intellectual products. But, if you fail to formulate such an assertion, this would mean that my Applied ADC Theory is true..Best,Serge Patlavskiy
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2018 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] What is "stuff"?
Dear Serge,Namaste. In two places in your reply to me you mention:> If you are the subject of cognitive activity and your consciousness produces intellectual productsand> if you use your consciousness to form your version of Phenomenal Reality (as a model of Noumenal Reality or a picture of the outer world), then you are already ON MY FIELD.ReplyHere, the difference between playing fields is clearly visible to me, but invisible to you.You are operating within the field of cognitive activity and consciousness, while unconscious of the fact that 'you' are behind all that. The use of the possessive pronoun 'your' as in 'your consciousness produces' - a distinction is made between consciousness and the possessor of it. As soon as the idea that 'you use your consciousness to form' consciousness becomes the instrument of 'you' and not the producer of intellectual products.Thus your game is played only on the field of consciousness. The field I am playing in has consciousness only as a subdomain and is a field that extends beyond that to the 'you' and higher that is well beyond 'you' and 'us' and consciousness. That is inconceivable to you right now, but I suggest that if you are willing to study the works of Kant and Hegel you may be able to get a glimpse of the field that lies beyond your dreams. [You may have heard of the Field of Dreams, but there is a field beyond that.]The teachings of the great philosophers, East and West, are already accepted by many. What you are doing is very admirable, interesting and at least presented in an original way. If you want to be accepted more widely, it would probably be a good idea to study what others before you have already understood about the philosophy of Mind and Spirit, and try to find the correlation between their language and yours. That may help not only to bring your ideas more in line with what many are already familiar, and therefore make it much more understandable, but perhaps even get you beyond that stage.Good wishes.Respectfully,Bhakti Madhava Puri
From: "'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
From: "'BMP' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] What is "stuff"?
Dear Serge,Namaste. When Planck 'complained' to the classical physicists, complacent with their electric light bulbs, that energy was not continuous little could they realize that such a 'complaint' would revolutionize science and technology the way it has in the last century. Today quantum scientists feeling complacent with their light emitting diodes (LEDs) may be disturbed by the'complaint' thatmodern science has failed to consider the role of the concept that the scientist contributes to the objects of science. This too is a common sense but revolutionary idea whose consequences will change science and society in ways that are imaginable today.You have been presenting your 'solution' for a considerable amount of time here and in other forums. Yet you have been able to convince no one. You insist that others play your game on your turf without an ability to understand the ideas of others. As I have explained to you before in our exchanges, we are on different playing fields. If someone insists on only playing hockey on a hockey rink, and wants to challenge another playing soccer on a soccer field, it cannot be done while remaining in the hockey rink. One may think hockey's is the only game in town, but it's not.Your comments regarding the Hungarian understanding of the word namaste is certainly related to the Sanskrit meaning of the term. From a book composed by Srila B.R. Sridhardeva Goswami, and translated into English entitled Prapanna-jivanamrita, subtitled Positive and Progressive Immortality, we find the following:The cause of the tangible reality of surrender is expounded in theStandard Codes of Religion (Smrti) –"The syllable ma means 'self-asserting ego' (the misconceptionof considering oneself to be a 'doer'), and the syllable na indicates itsprevention. Thus, the act of offering obeisances (namah) nullifies theofferer's independence. The soul is naturally subordinate to theAlmighty, his intrinsic nature and innate function being servitude tothe Supreme Lord. Therefore, all actions performed thinking, 'I amthe doer,' should be utterly abandoned." -- Padma PuranaRespectfully,B Madhava Puri
From: "'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
To: "Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2018 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] What is "stuff"?
-Bhakti Madhava Puri on April 24, 2018 wrote:>Career scientists are often unwilling to even look at this philosophical>development objectively, making them not only blind but ignorant>(ignoring it). The verbose elocution of their formal mathematical and> one-sided conceptions of scientific materialism, however, fails to>address what those who without prejudice see and understand what is> going on in the light of reason..[S.P.] Indeed, the "verbose elocution" is the exact phrase to talk to Paul Werbos. :-).Jokes apart, but I see a more serious problem here. Suppose, there are the persons who spend their evenings without electric light and only complain: "How bad it is to stay without electricity! We cannot read books in evenings, and we cannot switch on TV or computers". But, when an engineer comes and says that he has got a solution (in the form of diesel generator and incandescent lamps), the persons reply: "Or, no! This solution is too complex for us. You are using so many new terms and you talk about the principles that we are unable to comprehend! We would prefer to stay without electricity and continue complaining.".Yes, many modern-day philosophers complain that the objective science fails to address the subjective realm. But, when I come and say that I have got a solution (in the form of a specially developed meta-theory), the people prefer to ignore this solution and continue complaining that objective science only accepts materialism and ignores the subjective realm..With respect,Serge Patlavskiy.PS. It looks curious, but the word "Namaste", or "na-ma(s)-te", or "na-mas(h)-te", if being translated from Ukrainian language, verbally means "Here you are!", or "I am (or, it is) at your disposal".
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----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
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Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Dear SergeMy statement would be: "Often, when in a quiet place, and I retreat deep into myself, I have an experience which is beyond my power to explain accurately in words; the closest I can get is that I experience a sense of pure love which is infinite and eternal".It seems that you are not interested in this,
-
Bhakti Madhava Puri on April 28, 2018 wrote:>The teachings of the great philosophers, East and West, are>already accepted by many..[S.P.] Did these "great philosophers" solve the problem of consciousness? No? Then I have no interest in their views. I, myself, am a self-sufficient thinker. I produce a new knowledge which cannot be found in the libraries. I do have my own original solution and I see the sense of discussing anything only with other thinkers who also have got their solutions. If I use the concept of the Earth as a globe, I have no interest to discuss the ideas like "the flat Earth". I have no interest to publish my papers, say, in the Journal of Consciousness Studies or to participate in Tucson Conferences where people are discussing/complaining why they cannot solve what they call the "hard problem of consciousness"..So, I have constructed the Applied ADC Theory (for details, scroll this thread down). Being an applied theory itself, it can be tested/falsified. This is what I take an interest in, and what I would like to discuss. The Applied ADC Theory predicts that whatever intellectual product a subject of cognitive activity constructs, it will necessary be of one of four possible levels -- of the D-level, GS-level, AT-level, or MT-level..For example, if you formulate an assertion that there is a pillar in Delhi of 7.21 m high made of 99,9...% iron and that it is rust-resistant, you create the D-level intellectual product: you describe the object and provide the raw experimental findings -- the results of measurements and chemical analyses..If you say that there are other iron poles and other artefacts in India and throughout the World with similar physical/chemical properties, and you hypothesize that, maybe, there was a very technologically developed tradition of metal manufacturing two millennia ago, you, thereby, create the GS-level intellectual product: you consider many objects, generalize and systematize the collected data and formulate a certain hypothesis based on the available firmly established facts. By the way, the same facts may be generalized and systematized in different ways, so that we may have much differing hypotheses..If you say that the pillars and other artefacts of such physical properties can be produced only in the oxygen-free environment (say, in outer space), you, thereby, create the AT-level intellectual product: you explain something and predict something. To test your statement, we would have to move the steel-making plant into space and to try to produce the iron of certain purity..
If you say that you believe that the pillar of Dehli and similar artefacts were produced by the gods from Sirius, you, thereby, create the MT-level intellectual product: you just announce your beliefs/suppositions/ postulates/axioms, which, by definition, require no proofs -- the others may either adopt your beliefs or reject them.
-
Joan Walton <joanwa...@gmail.com> on April 30, 2018 wrote:> It seems that you are not interested in this, because it is a personal> experience....[S.P.] I have addressed this question yet in my reply to Whit Blauvelt on February 28, 2018 where I wrote:" There is no sense in discussing privately experienced consciousness-related phenomena. The case is that when being expressed in words, the good deal of important info stays unuttered. Therefore I prefer to discuss the question of how to construct a theory which would account for these phenomena." (for details, see this post attached below)..I ground my personal version of the applied theory of consciousness on my privately experiencing consciousness-related phenomena. I have addressed the difference between the bottom-up and top-down approaches yet in my reply to Paul Werbos on January 17, 2018 (see it attached too)..[Joan Walton] wrote:>It seems to me that if you are interested only in talking to people>about your particular theory....[S.P.] It is shocking to which extent my ideas are being misinterpreted! I said that I take an interest to communicate with people (thinkers, theorists) who do have their own solutions in the field of consciousness studies. I take an interest to compare my solution with the solutions of other theorists. I take an interest to discuss whether the suggested solutions possess a sufficient explanatory and predictive power. So, what is wrong with my approach?.Thanks for your reply,Serge Patlavskiy
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] What is "stuff"?
Dear SergeMy statement would be: "Often, when in a quiet place, and I retreat deep into myself, I have an experience which is beyond my power to explain accurately in words; the closest I can get is that I experience a sense of pure love which is infinite and eternal".It seems that you are not interested in this, because it is a personal experience (which I know many others share so there is an intersubjective validation of it); but because I cannot articulate it intellectually in a way that others can 'objectively' prove / disprove, it does not fit into one of your four categories? Or it may be that it is your 4th category, because of your insistence on intellectual proof?It is the choice of each of us as to what they accept as valid knowledge. For me, the experience I have described, and the tacit knowledge that provides for me in relation to the nature of reality (and indeed what it tells me about the nature of consciousness which is a great interest of mine), is far more powerful and real, and in research terms, a significant source of useful data, than any intellectual explanation or analysis of that experience ( though that also does have a place).It seems to me that if you are interested only in talking to people about your particular theory, you are missing out on a hugely rich and rewarding dimension of life. I don't accept that you have achieved any useful solution at all. Hence our lack of interest in talking to each other is presumably mutual.Best wishesJoan
On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:54 AM, 'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> wrote:-Bhakti Madhava Puri on April 28, 2018 wrote:>The teachings of the great philosophers, East and West, are>already accepted by many..[S.P.] Did these "great philosophers" solve the problem of consciousness? No? Then I have no interest in their views. I, myself, am a self-sufficient thinker. I produce a new knowledge which cannot be found in the libraries. I do have my own original solution and I see the sense of discussing anything only with other thinkers who also have got their solutions. If I use the concept of the Earth as a globe, I have no interest to discuss the ideas like "the flat Earth". I have no interest to publish my papers, say, in the Journal of Consciousness Studies or to participate in Tucson Conferences where people are discussing/complaining why they cannot solve what they call the "hard problem of consciousness"..So, I have constructed the Applied ADC Theory (for details, scroll this thread down). Being an applied theory itself, it can be tested/falsified. This is what I take an interest in, and what I would like to discuss. The Applied ADC Theory predicts that whatever intellectual product a subject of cognitive activity constructs, it will necessary be of one of four possible levels -- of the D-level, GS-level, AT-level, or MT-level..For example, if you formulate an assertion that there is a pillar in Delhi of 7.21 m high made of 99,9...% iron and that it is rust-resistant, you create the D-level intellectual product: you describe the object and provide the raw experimental findings -- the results of measurements and chemical analyses..If you say that there are other iron poles and other artefacts in India and throughout the World with similar physical/chemical properties, and you hypothesize that, maybe, there was a very technologically developed tradition of metal manufacturing two millennia ago, you, thereby, create the GS-level intellectual product: you consider many objects, generalize and systematize the collected data and formulate a certain hypothesis based on the available firmly established facts. By the way, the same facts may be generalized and systematized in different ways, so that we may have much differing hypotheses..If you say that the pillars and other artefacts of such physical properties can be produced only in the oxygen-free environment (say, in outer space), you, thereby, create the AT-level intellectual product: you explain something and predict something. To test your statement, we would have to move the steel-making plant into space and to try to produce the iron of certain purity..If you say that you believe that the pillar of Dehli and similar artefacts were produced by the gods from Sirius, you, thereby, create the MT-level intellectual product: you just announce your beliefs/suppositions/ postulates/axioms, which, by definition, require no proofs -- the others may either adopt your beliefs or reject them..So, to test/falsify my Applied ADC Theory, you have to formulate an assertion which would not belong to any of the mentioned above four levels of intellectual products. But, if you fail to formulate such an assertion, this would mean that my Applied ADC Theory is true..Best,Serge Patlavskiy
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Bhakti Madhava Puri on April 28, 2018 wrote:>The teachings of the great philosophers, East and West, are>already accepted by many..[S.P.] Did these "great philosophers" solve the problem of consciousness? No? Then I have no interest in their views. I, myself, am a self-sufficient thinker. I produce a new knowledge which cannot be found in the libraries. I do have my own original solution and I see the sense of discussing anything only with other thinkers who also have got their solutions. If I use the concept of the Earth as a globe, I have no interest to discuss the ideas like "the flat Earth". I have no interest to publish my papers, say, in the Journal of Consciousness Studies or to participate in Tucson Conferences where people are discussing/complaining why they cannot solve what they call the "hard problem of consciousness"..So, I have constructed the Applied ADC Theory (for details, scroll this thread down). Being an applied theory itself, it can be tested/falsified. This is what I take an interest in, and what I would like to discuss. The Applied ADC Theory predicts that whatever intellectual product a subject of cognitive activity constructs, it will necessary be of one of four possible levels -- of the D-level, GS-level, AT-level, or MT-level..For example, if you formulate an assertion that there is a pillar in Delhi of 7.21 m high made of 99,9...% iron and that it is rust-resistant, you create the D-level intellectual product: you describe the object and provide the raw experimental findings -- the results of measurements and chemical analyses..If you say that there are other iron poles and other artefacts in India and throughout the World with similar physical/chemical properties, and you hypothesize that, maybe, there was a very technologically developed tradition of metal manufacturing two millennia ago, you, thereby, create the GS-level intellectual product: you consider many objects, generalize and systematize the collected data and formulate a certain hypothesis based on the available firmly established facts. By the way, the same facts may be generalized and systematized in different ways, so that we may have much differing hypotheses..If you say that the pillars and other artefacts of such physical properties can be produced only in the oxygen-free environment (say, in outer space), you, thereby, create the AT-level intellectual product: you explain something and predict something. To test your statement, we would have to move the steel-making plant into space and to try to produce the iron of certain purity..
If you say that you believe that the pillar of Dehli and similar artefacts were produced by the gods from Sirius, you, thereby, create the MT-level intellectual product: you just announce your beliefs/suppositions/ postulates/axioms, which, by definition, require no proofs -- the others may either adopt your beliefs or reject them.