View of City Hall with Times Building from Bunker Hill, 1931

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theodore barrow

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Mar 25, 2011, 12:52:41 PM3/25/11
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Hello all,

I'm an art historian working on a project about Bunker Hill and it's
depictions in art. I've come across an interesting painting, a view
of City Hall from what looks to be Fort Moore Hill from 1931 (though
dating these things can be sketchy) by (supposedly) Emil Jean Kosa
Jr. Comparing this view with similar photographs of the same subject,
I've noticed that either the "new" (2nd incarnation) LA Times Building
is shown, or the final LA Times Building (the 3rd) is shown, but never
together. My question is: was there ever a time when both buildings
were up at the same time, or is this strange wrinkle in time a choice
of the artist?

John

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Mar 25, 2011, 2:20:51 PM3/25/11
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Hi Theodore,

I haven't quite answered your question, but in looking for photos of the second and third L.A. Times buildings I came across this site which has so many interesting photos that I think everyone on this list will find something of interest:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=170279&page=136

--- On Fri, 3/25/11, theodore barrow <theodor...@gmail.com> wrote:
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theodore barrow

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Mar 25, 2011, 2:28:39 PM3/25/11
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Hi John, 

Thanks for your quick response and the link. I pore through the skyscraper forum as well and find it very helpful. I'm attaching some images if that helps.  I actually find the attribution of the painting questionable, as Kosa seems to have worked in a much more free style, although he Fort Moore Hill was definitely one of his favorite sketching spots. Any help that you can offer would be greatly appreciated, and thanks again for getting back to me.

Best,

Ted

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--
Theodore Ward Barrow
Graduate student
PhD Program in Art History
Graduate Center, City University of New York
365 Fifth Avenue, New York NY 10016
city hall 1953.jpg
city hall from bunker hill 1951.jpg
city hall from bunker hill 1951 day.jpg
kosa city hall and times building 1931.jpg

theodore barrow

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Mar 25, 2011, 2:32:08 PM3/25/11
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Oh, and I just realized that I'm not looking at the Times building but the State Building.  Could this be the old state building, and the newest times building would not have been built yet? 

Nathan Marsak

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:54:12 PM3/26/11
to offbun...@googlegroups.com, theodore barrow

Hey Theodore --

Would love to hear more about your project (I'm a Bunker Hill fan and have never, for example, viewed this Kosa painting -- granted, it's not precisely Bunker Hill, but still close enough for government work). 

I think it's a fascinating picture because it depicts the precise moment in time where, in fact, the Times building and the State Building did, in fact, share the same lot.  The State of California, before, during and after the erection of the State Building, were up in arms about the delays regarding the Times' demolition, which the State had taken from them through imminent domain.  The Times of course built their famous moderne palace across the street in a couple years later (the Kaufmann Times would be out of frame and also later than '31).  I can't comment on whether it's a Kosa or not as I'm not familiar with his hand, however:  images of the State Building during the moment in time when the Times building still stood on that corner are, for some reason, exceedingly rare.  I'm pretty damn tickled at your having shared this.

I post on that Skyscraper Page thread a bit (I go by the handle "Beaudry," 10-4) and, with your permission, may I share this image with the group?  Please feel free to say no because proprietary issues come up all the time -- but if this image is "out there" I know that there are more than a few folk on the thread who would flip over it.  As I did. 

(Oh, and should you be interested in a deeper explication of that corner in the early 30s, let me know and I can dig up some pix and newspaper articles.)

Nathan

Byron Dillon

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Mar 26, 2011, 8:38:46 PM3/26/11
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It is interesting to read all the items i.e. LA Times Bldg. but another great mystery:  Central Jr. High School located at 400 N. Hill Street.  I graduated from this Jr. High School in 1937 the very year the school closed and subsequently was leveled.  Few people know of, or obviously don't care about old Central Jr.  Many famous early Angelenos graduated from that school.  Our athletic field on top of Fort Hill was an early day cemetery where many famous Angelenos were buried.
 
Strange no information can be found regarding this wonderful old school.  
Anyone have any ideas, suggestions, thoughts about this matter!!!!!!!!
 
Is this just another  piece of early LA history that has slipped through the cracks?
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----

flo...@aol.com

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Mar 27, 2011, 10:31:21 AM3/27/11
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Hi,
 
I agree there is not much information but the History Department of Los Angeles Public Library has an early edition of the school newspaper
as well as several photographs.  These are available on line at the library's web site.  Hope this helps.
 
By the way, if memory serves, there was a military cemetery on Fort Moore Hill that was unearthed during construction of  the Board of Education building.
I'm not sure if it was the cemetery that you mention.
 
Frank

Richard Schave

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Mar 27, 2011, 12:45:30 PM3/27/11
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On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Nathan Marsak <marsa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Theodore --

Would love to hear more about your project (I'm a Bunker Hill fan and have never, for example, viewed this Kosa painting -- granted, it's not precisely Bunker Hill, but still close enough for government work). 

I think it's a fascinating picture because it depicts the precise moment in time where, in fact, the Times building and the State Building did, in fact, share the same lot.  The State of California, before, during and after the erection of the State Building, were up in arms about the delays regarding the Times' demolition, which the State had taken from them through imminent domain.  The Times of course built their famous moderne palace across the street in a couple years later (the Kaufmann Times would be out of frame and also later than '31).  I can't comment on whether it's a Kosa or not as I'm not familiar with his hand, however:  images of the State Building during the moment in time when the Times building still stood on that corner are, for some reason, exceedingly rare.  I'm pretty damn tickled at your having shared this.

Nathan:


I find  it amusing that you refer to the lot which once held the 2nd and 3rd LA Times building as being taken by imminent domain from the Chandler family.  Of it was, but not the in the way that normal people have their private property seized by local authorities, rather in a more complex and modern attitude which sees it as what is good for the State is good for everyone.  An attitude which in 1929 or 1930 looks ahead two decades to more enlightened post war times once federal legalisation exists for the creation of Community Redevelopment Agencies, entities which are so wonderfully suited to foster the goals of a handful of wealthy property owners and local taxing authorities.

Harry Chandler was integral to the creation of the "Northern Downtown Development Project" (quotes my own as I can't remember the official name of the 2 decade campaign) which included Union Station, the State Building and Terminal Annex.  He was greatly over paid in the "seizure" of his land on that corner, and eventually sent the rubble to Christine Sterling's "China City" gates near Ord & Alameda.

Compare and contrast Chandler's use of imminent domain for northern downtown and the entire Owens River Valley water campaign with post war CRA projects downtown and you have an interesting delineation of the problem spaces surrounding both pre-war private/public development downtown and the Bunker Hill Redevelopment Project in '59. 
 
I remain,

Richard

I post on that Skyscraper Page thread a bit (I go by the handle "Beaudry," 10-4) and, with your permission, may I share this image with the group?  Please feel free to say no because proprietary issues come up all the time -- but if this image is "out there" I know that there are more than a few folk on the thread who would flip over it.  As I did. 

(Oh, and should you be interested in a deeper explication of that corner in the early 30s, let me know and I can dig up some pix and newspaper articles.)

I accept your offer and eagerly await a zipped attachment to this list.

Nathan Marsak

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Mar 27, 2011, 6:04:06 PM3/27/11
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Ricardo, I agree completely, it is a complex story.  Appreciate your elucidation.  (Don't know how to "zip" a file so when I poke around and find stuff I'm afraid it'll just be attachments of the garden variety!) 

Kim Cooper

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Mar 28, 2011, 12:08:33 AM3/28/11
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Unfortunately, Google Groups no longer supports storing documents within groups, which is how we used to share photos and text files. Please see the link below for other alternatives:


For those of you using gmail or other Google account, the simplest option would be to create a Google Doc at the link below, and share it with this group.


best regards,
Kim
Esotouric, bus adventures into the secret heart of LA
http://www.esotouric.com

Richard Schave

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Mar 28, 2011, 12:11:34 AM3/28/11
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Nathan:

send me the articles off list and I will post them on a google site URL for the list to find.

Richard

gsjansen

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Apr 1, 2011, 2:04:06 PM4/1/11
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Hi Ted,

as i am new to this page, i haven't quite figured out how to post
images as slickly as you have done. However, i am a regular
contributer on the noirish los angeles thread at the skyscraper page
forums. i posted some images showing the old times building and the
state building sharing the same site, (albeit the state building is
under construction in most the photographs), but the 1st photo i found
is quite interesting, as it is the exact same location of the
perspective of the Kosa painting.........i mean identical, plop the
state building in, and it's a photograph of the painting.

anyway, you can view the images here

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=5225113&postcount=3454


On Mar 25, 2:28 pm, theodore barrow <theodore.bar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for your quick response and the link. I pore through the skyscraper
> forum as well and find it very helpful. I'm attaching some images if that
> helps.  I actually find the attribution of the painting questionable, as
> Kosa seems to have worked in a much more free style, although he Fort Moore
> Hill was definitely one of his favorite sketching spots. Any help that you
> can offer would be greatly appreciated, and thanks again for getting back to
> me.
>
> Best,
>
> Ted
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 2:20 PM, John <fix...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> > Hi Theodore,
>
> > I haven't quite answered your question, but in looking for photos of the
> > second and third L.A. Times buildings I came across this site which has so
> > many interesting photos that I think everyone on this list will find
> > something of interest:
>
> >http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=170279&page=136
>
> > --- On *Fri, 3/25/11, theodore barrow <theodore.bar...@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> > From: theodore barrow <theodore.bar...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: View of City Hall with Times Building from Bunker Hill, 1931
> > To: "offbunkerhill" <offbun...@googlegroups.com>
> > Date: Friday, March 25, 2011, 9:52 AM
>
> > Hello all,
>
> > I'm an art historian working on a project about Bunker Hill and it's
> > depictions in art.  I've come across an interesting painting, a view
> > of City Hall from what looks to be Fort Moore Hill from 1931 (though
> > dating these things can be sketchy) by (supposedly) Emil Jean Kosa
> > Jr.  Comparing this view with similar photographs of the same subject,
> > I've noticed that either the "new" (2nd incarnation) LA Times Building
> > is shown, or the final LA Times Building (the 3rd) is shown, but never
> > together.  My question is: was there ever a time when both buildings
> > were up at the same time, or is this strange wrinkle in time a choice
> > of the artist?
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "offbunkerhill" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to offbun...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=offbun...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to offbunkerhill+
> > unsub...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=unsub...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/offbunkerhill?hl=en.
>
> >  --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "offbunkerhill" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to offbun...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > offbunkerhil...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/offbunkerhill?hl=en.
>
> --
> Theodore Ward Barrow
> Graduate student
> PhD Program in Art History
> Graduate Center, City University of New York
> 365 Fifth Avenue, New York NY 10016
>
>  city hall 1953.jpg
> 126KViewDownload
>
>  city hall from bunker hill 1951.jpg
> 242KViewDownload
>
>  city hall from bunker hill 1951 day.jpg
> 399KViewDownload
>
>  kosa city hall and times building 1931.jpg
> 297KViewDownload
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