changing name to OpenCamp rather than OpenEverything? in Milwaukee

[Douglas A. Whitfield]

So, I started this convo with Pete (and the world really, but only Pete responded) about changing the name from Open Everything to OpenCamp in Milwaukee.  I think it deserved more than 140 char. :)

Here's the pros and cons as I see:

PROS:
1) People immediately know what they are getting themselves into.  We didn't do it traditional Camp style in Madison, but I see no reason we couldn't do this in Milwaukee.  I think one of the issues with Madison was the limited number of people.  I also think Alnisa and I also wanted to keep the numbers small because we weren't really sure how it was going to work.  Well, again, we don't really know how this OpenCamp thing will go, but based off what happened in Madison and the events I've been to in Milwaukee, I feel I have a better idea than I did on December 5th.

2) Less zealotry. This is a perception issue. I don't think anyone involved at a high level with Open Everything is a zealot in any way.  @amandachapel called open everything naive on Twitter but when I pressed her about it, it was clear she didn't know anything about the event.  OpenEverything sounds like communism or anarchy to people.  Americans have very visceral responses to these things. 

I think specifically OpenCamp makes it sound better for Bucketworks.  Bucketworks understands camps.  The event may not be at Bucketworks, but right now, if we can get the funding, that's going to be the easiest. 

CONS:
1) Confusing people already familiar with Open Everything. I think these people are few enough it doesn't matter.  And there's no reason we can't call it Open Everything Camp but tag it as OpenCamp to save char.  One of the problems denting/tweeting open everything events is it's long.  OEmad and OEMKE are not very descriptive and don't serve as a very good place of entry.

2) Breaking with tradition.  This is similar, but the first Con is about advertising and perception.  This one is about reality.  I happen to think the *Camp idea works well...even if it is something totally separate.

3) Confusing people already familiar with OpenCamp. As far as I'm aware these have just been in Italy and France: http://barcamp.org/OpenCamp.  I think we can make it pretty clear this is not the same thing...we already space on http://openeverything.wik.is so I see no need to have space on barcamp.org. 

4) Making the event more tech oriented. If we say it's like BarCamp only for access, transparency, yadda, yadda, then maybe we get a more tech crowd.  This would be a real problem, but if true I say, we've got to start somewhere.  However, with PhotoCamp, QueerCamp and FoodCamp on the MKE schedule I really don't see how this could be a real issue.  Maybe a little, but I'd personally like to see more open source people at the MKE event than we had in Madison.  We worked hard to make it not a tech event in Madison.  We succeeded.  I think in Milwaukee we should just see what happens.  I think trying to make it non-tech is a waste of energy (though I don't think it was in Madison, because we were successful in bringing non-tech people in). 

I don't think the first three cons involve people in Milwaukee.  If we're confusing people in Paris and Milan we've done one helluva a job promoting the event.  Maybe we should make it our goal to confuse them!

I'd really like some feedback on this, particularly from anyone in Milwaukee. 

Douglas A. Whitfield

Founder Open Madison Group (OMG!)
http://twitter.com/openmadison
Co-Founder Carolina Open Source Initiative

[Pete Prodoehl]

Doug,

After reading you thoughts, I think using the name OpenCamp is fine,
as long as it's a BarCamp-like event in how it functions... In Madison
for instance, OEMAD was not open to all to attend, which is pretty
anti-BarCamp, and I assume an OpenCamp would not do that.

I was also just concerned from a branding perspective about confusion
between the two things, and worried that the "Camp" word was just
being attached for reasons of drawing more attention to it.

I'm still not sure you will get a large crowd of people who are into
"openness" of all things, but hey, it's worth trying.

Maybe it could be called "OpenCamp: An Open Everything Event" or
something, to incorporate both names?


Pete


On Feb 6, 12:05 am, "Douglas A. Whitfield" <douglas...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> So, I started this convo with Pete (and the world really, but only Pete
> responded) about changing the name from Open Everything to OpenCamp in
> Milwaukee.  I think it deserved more than 140 char. :)
>
> Here's the pros and cons as I see:

> *
> PROS:*
> 1) *People immediately know what they are getting themselves into.*  We

> didn't do it traditional Camp style in Madison, but I see no reason we
> couldn't do this in Milwaukee.  I think one of the issues with Madison was
> the limited number of people.  I also think Alnisa and I also wanted to keep
> the numbers small because we weren't really sure how it was going to work.
> Well, again, we don't really know how this OpenCamp thing will go, but based
> off what happened in Madison and the events I've been to in Milwaukee, I
> feel I have a better idea than I did on December 5th.
>

> 2) *Less zealotry.* This is a perception issue. I don't think anyone

> involved at a high level with Open Everything is a zealot in any way.
> @amandachapel called open everything naive on Twitter but when I pressed her
> about it, it was clear she didn't know anything about the event.
> OpenEverything sounds like communism or anarchy to people.  Americans have
> very visceral responses to these things.
>
> I think specifically OpenCamp makes it sound better for Bucketworks.
> Bucketworks understands camps.  The event may not be at Bucketworks, but
> right now, if we can get the funding, that's going to be the easiest.

> *
> CONS:*
> 1) *Confusing people already familiar with Open Everything.* I think these

> people are few enough it doesn't matter.  And there's no reason we can't
> call it Open Everything Camp but tag it as OpenCamp to save char.  One of
> the problems denting/tweeting open everything events is it's long.  OEmad
> and OEMKE are not very descriptive and don't serve as a very good place of
> entry.
>

> 2) *Breaking with tradition.*  This is similar, but the first Con is about

> advertising and perception.  This one is about reality.  I happen to think
> the *Camp idea works well...even if it is something totally separate.
>

> 3) *Confusing people already familiar with OpenCamp*. As far as I'm aware

> these have just been in Italy and France:http://barcamp.org/OpenCamp.  I
> think we can make it pretty clear this is not the same thing...we already

> space onhttp://openeverything.wik.isso I see no need to have space on
> barcamp.org.
>
> 4) *Making the event more tech oriented.* If we say it's like BarCamp only

> for access, transparency, yadda, yadda, then maybe we get a more tech
> crowd.  This would be a real problem, but if true I say, we've got to start
> somewhere.  However, with PhotoCamp, QueerCamp and FoodCamp on the MKE
> schedule I really don't see how this could be a real issue.  Maybe a little,
> but I'd personally like to see more open source people at the MKE event than
> we had in Madison.  We worked hard to make it not a tech event in Madison.
> We succeeded.  I think in Milwaukee we should just see what happens.  I
> think trying to make it non-tech is a waste of energy (though I don't think
> it was in Madison, because we were successful in bringing non-tech people
> in).
>
> I don't think the first three cons involve people in Milwaukee.  If we're
> confusing people in Paris and Milan we've done one helluva a job promoting
> the event.  Maybe we should make it our goal to confuse them!
>
> I'd really like some feedback on this, particularly from anyone in
> Milwaukee.
>
> Douglas A. Whitfield
>

> Founder Open Madison Group (OMG!)http://twitter.com/openmadison

[Douglas A. Whitfield]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Pete Prodoehl <ras...@gmail.com> wrote:

After reading you thoughts, I think using the name OpenCamp is fine,
as long as it's a BarCamp-like event in how it functions... In Madison
for instance, OEMAD was not open to all to attend, which is pretty
anti-BarCamp, and I assume an OpenCamp would not do that.

That's not true at all.  We had walk-ins.  What we wanted to do was not have an initial flood of techies.  We purposely did not invite people, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have come.  As it turned out, we had just about as many people as the room would hold comfortably.  We'd need a bigger space if we were to invite more people.
 

I was also just concerned from a branding perspective about confusion
between the two things, and worried that the "Camp" word was just
being attached for reasons of drawing more attention to it.

I think for the previous event that was accurate, but what I'd like to do this time is more camp like.  Specifically, I'd like four tracks; technology, NGO, content and anything goes.  Each track would operate with the plan as you go Camp idea.

Maybe it could be called "OpenCamp: An Open Everything Event" or
something, to incorporate both names?

That's a good idea.

I've pretty much soured on the idea of having it in Milwaukee though.  No one in Milwaukee is interested.  No location.  Lots of people in Madison interested.  Maybe we need another event in Madison to make an event in Milwaukee realistic.  Maybe also the event in Chicago needs to happen first.  I've already got people in Chicago interested with the idea.

[Alnisa Allgood]

I feel like I should address this, just because it keeps coming up,
and really is just wrong.

One, the Open Everything: A Conversation event wasn't a BarCamp,
FooCamp, a conference, or workshop, or any of that. It wasn't planned
as such. It was planned as a conversation between diverse communities
on what issues in the 'open arena' are of interest and why.

Two the event was open to anyone who wanted to attend, but we had a
limit on the number of people who could attend. That limit was there
for a number of reasons: (a) the event was a conversation not a
conference, (b) food needed to be ordered in advance and numbers where
important, and (c) room size. Though admittedly, item c was directly
influence by a and b. I didn't want a room that would hold no more
than 50 people, because my target attendance goal was 25-30 people,
which was met.

Which goes back to item a). I was planning a 'conversation' having a
good dialog with more than 50 people is damn hard, even with skilled
moderators and leaders. I felt 25-30 was manageable at my skill level,
50 doable if we got overflow; above that and the events a wash. The
crowds there, but any benefit of the conversation is gone.

The event could only be seen as anti-BarCamp if it was trying to be a
BarCamp. This wasn't an un-conference event. It wasn't even a
conference.

But I think the real issue, was the fact that I requested that the
first few weeks of organizing be spent doing target identification and
solicitation (I can't say marketing, because it really wasn't). One
targeting audiences doesn't make an event less open, it just
acknowledges that some communities won't participate without direct
interference. It was my decision not to target the Web608, Web414, and
BarCamp crowds. I made the decision for a number of reasons, but the
biggest being the communities are way to insular for what I wanted the
conversation to be. My goal was to bring in new players to the
conversation, but also new communities.

We had bloggers, professors, librarians, entrepreneurs, lawyers,
nonprofits, and journalist interested. We even had some artists,
government workers, etc. who showed interest but couldn't make it. In
all honesty, the diversity, despite efforts, was surprising, because
seemingly some of the areas I spent little time, had far more interest
than I would have assumed; and that doesn't even get into the people I
hadn't even thought about, that just showed up.

Taking the time to reassure people that it wasn't just another techie
event, that they should send their CTO, IT person or accidental techie
to was well worth the effort, from my perspective. I wanted to know
what issues of open really interest people: government, art, blogging,
and funding were massive standouts. I wanted to see how far these
interest/issues diverge from those of the nonprofit sector (both not a
lot and a great deal), and I wanted to gauge interest in further
activities (a good deal of interest).

We split the events in two because of different agendas. Doug would
have been fine with and as you can see is leaning towards a BarCamp
like large event. I wanted to shake the rafters and see, talk, and
engage those who are typically missing from BarCamp like events. So
two different events. Both perfectly fine under the banner of 'open'.

For the first event, we did targeted solicitation for participation,
followed by general announcements and flyers; as opposed to just
flyers and general announcements. So 'open' invitations.

But my thoughts are, really, even if it was invitation only, what's
the big deal. Numerous events on open government, data portability,
transparency, etc. are invitation only. For certain types of
discussions its better to have the people who can push the discussion,
policies, or the technology ahead than it is to have an event with
everyone where nothing measurable is accomplished. There's room for
the array.

Alnisa

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Pete Prodoehl <ras...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

--
......................

Alnisa Allgood
Executive Director
Nonprofit Tech
t. 608.241.3616
e. aln...@nonprofit-tech.org

[Douglas A. Whitfield]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Alnisa Allgood <allg...@gmail.com> wrote:

It was my decision not to target the Web608, Web414, and
BarCamp crowds. I made the decision for a number of reasons, but the
biggest being the communities are way to insular for what I wanted the
conversation to be. My goal was to bring in new players to the
conversation, but also new communities.

 
Alnisa and I certainly agreed on this part. 

Taking the time to reassure people that it wasn't just another techie
event, that they should send their CTO, IT person or accidental techie
to was well worth the effort, from my perspective.

I think she left out a "not" here, if that makes it more clear for people.

We split the events in two because of different agendas. Doug would
have been fine with and as you can see is leaning towards a BarCamp
like large event. I wanted to shake the rafters and see, talk, and
engage those who are typically missing from BarCamp like events. So
two different events. Both perfectly fine under the banner of 'open'.

I think this is the key.  The first event was a success by just about any measure, but all along the plan was to do something larger in the spring.  What I'm now thinking about is smaller than what I had originally envisioned, but will still be a larger event. 

I should also be clear that while Alnisa is very focused on Madison, I am very interested in growing Open Everything globally.  That's why I'm trying to get events in Sweden, Twin Cities, Chicago and...eventually...Milwaukee.  Until I see some buy-in from some people in Milwaukee though, I think it is going to be too much effort.  Perhaps I'll re-evaluate after we do another Madison event.  Perhaps some MKE people will come and be energized.  That's my hope!

[Dan Knauss]

I don't see a problem with "Open Everything" beyond it being a bit
vague--something you can fix by having a really clear tagline or
slogan and other good "what you're about" writing.

The "Camp" part makes immediate sense to everyone used to the camp
format and camp culture. But as you say this is a move in the "tech"
direction. I am interested in your potential to reach a wider than
tech audience. Doing a camp in Madison--state capital, university hub,
important but dying newspapers--where government, journalism,
education and "everything else" (reading from your Deki site) comes
last and is most vague alongside stuff about Ubuntu suggests you're
missing opportunities.

Some camp stuff--like running a live audience chat feed behind
speakers--just won't work with a bigger, non-techy audience.

There is a lot being done in Milwaukee city gov and NGOs, UWM with GIS
and public/social data. Some of this uses open source systems, or an
increasingly open approach to data sources. The Journal-Sentinel has a
specially tasked reporter who is a database specialist. Many people
working in the city gov are aware of changes afoot with transparency
and civic participation relative to online data dissemination and
interactive systems. Milwaukee is ahead of a lot of cities with what
they're doing and planning to do. A lot of people in local gov or in
marketing or PR (and increasingly web stuff) have journalistic
backgrounds. The traditional media at least should be interested in
all things web and definitely in tools with no to low costs. You could
cast the net widely and find a wide variety of people interested in
"open stuff."


On Feb 10, 3:10 pm, "Douglas A. Whitfield" <douglas...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Douglas A. Whitfield]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Dan Knauss <d...@newlocalmedia.com> wrote:

Doing a camp in Madison--state capital, university hub,
important but dying newspapers--where government, journalism,
education and "everything else" (reading from your Deki site) comes
last and is most vague alongside stuff about Ubuntu suggests you're
missing opportunities.

How do you suggest we break it up?  We've already got the rooms booked.  We discussed this on the Madison list, and it's just impossible to cover "everything" in a day long event and we feel some guidance is necessary.  If it makes it better to put the "Everything Else" (or whatever we rename it) first, that's fine.  The event we had on December 6th purposefully had a very weak technology component.  I'd personally (as Co-President of MadLUG) like this to change.  We purposefully did not market to technical people last time because of the concern of this becoming another tech event.  This time, however, I feel we should reach out to that audience.  When we discussed the NGO section being also the society section, that brings in a *ton* of the everything else.  Society is pretty frickin' broad.

There are tons of educational and governmental issues in the "content" section.  Any sort of government data I think falls under "access" which could fall under content.  Perhaps we don't need an "Anything Goes" section and we can just cram whatever into the four main sections.  I find it hard to believe there's much that could fall outside of technology, content or society if you define those broadly.

The key is to balance giving people guidelines without limiting people.  Unfortunately, most in our society are used to restrictions and roadblocks.

Thanks for charging the list with some fresh energy Dan!

[Dan Knauss]

Do you have any speakers/session leaders representing journalism, government, and education? Could organize around them.

I'd have to look at it more closely, but I wasn't suggesting you ought to change an already solidified schedule and plan. Just an idea for down the road.

 

Dan Knauss

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/danknauss
New Local Media :: www.newlocalmedia.com
Twitter: @newlocalmedia

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[Douglas A. Whitfield]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Dan Knauss <d...@newlocalmedia.com> wrote:

Do you have any speakers/session leaders representing journalism, government, and education? Could organize around them.

There aren't any speakers.  It really depends on what you are calling journalism, government and education.  I wrote my master's paper on an education topic and Alnisa works with the Dane County Elections board. Does that count as education and government?  There was a lot of talk about journalism at the event in Madison, but it wasn't at all planned that way.  Right now I'm working on getting the word out about my presentation on Open Everything on March 17th and after than I'll work on OpenCamp.

I'd have to look at it more closely, but I wasn't suggesting you ought to change an already solidified schedule and plan. Just an idea for down the road.

It's a camp, there's not a solidified schedule or plan.

[Dan Knauss]

Sure, that's education and government.

I saw reference to "conversations" and "leaders" -- not too far off from
"speakers."

A really unstructured format can be an obstacle with people who are squarely
in the "professional" or "academic" world, but these are exactly the people
who make decisions on what becomes "open" in a lot of cases.

I've thought about this before, but it came to me the other day as I found
out about tcamp09 as it was ending. No press coverage on the first 2 pages
of google search results. The more attentive journalists I know who are hip
to this kind of thing didn't know about it. It also looked like tcamp didn't
have significant participation from anyone representing "government," and
this was in DC. So it concerns me that the whole "camp" culture may be
creating an inherent obstacle to actually talking and building relationships
with decisionmakers. To some extent, uncurbed nerdism in its native
environment is like oil to the water of corporate and bureaucrat
suit-wearing culture.

How have you dealt with that sort of thing? Unconferences definitely need
some pre-explaining for some folks.

The UWM CIO comes to mind as another for the "hit-em-up" list. I don't know
him, but I see him on twitter all the time. He's probably cool with camps.

I'm totally pushing my own interest here--bridging the tech/professional
gap--but please don’t take it personally and push back on it if that doesn’t
really fit with your vision.

-----Original Message-----
From: oe...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oe...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Douglas A. Whitfield
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 5:39 PM
To: oe...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: changing name to OpenCamp rather than OpenEverything? in
Milwaukee

[Dan Knauss]

By the way, I don’t know if any of you were tuned into tcamp, but I followed
some of the #tcamp09 talk on Twitter and noticed that @tcamp had very few
followers, and many of its key members had their feeds locked. Any ideas as
to why???

[Douglas A. Whitfield]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Dan Knauss <d...@newlocalmedia.com> wrote:

How have you dealt with that sort of thing? Unconferences definitely need
some pre-explaining for some folks.

Well, the December event wasn't a *Camp. We were very cautious about sending out mass invites because we didn't want techies taking over.  You have to realize that the Madison Open Everything was the first in the US, so there's not really a programmatic way to do this.  When Madison does OpenCamp on April 18th, it will be the first such event in the **world**.  NYC is likely having their event the same day as the event in Madison, but Milwaukee could be in the same league as NYC, Berlin, Hong Kong and London, and I think that's a pretty good place to be.

I think I'd personally be ok with a more tech oriented event in MKE *as long as* we have it in mind that the next one wouldn't be.  If we need it to be a tech event to get a critical mass, then I think that's fine.  Again, I can't really do a lot with this right now.  However, I am planning on being in Milwaukee for the LUG meeting on the 14th if anybody wants to talk about this in person.

[Douglas A. Whitfield]

I personally have mine locked because I work for a closed source company and I advocate FOSS.  I watch what I say on e-mail lists and such, but Twitter is more-or-less uncensored.  I have an open identi.ca feed at http://identi.ca/douglasawh

My guess is they did not do a good job promoting themselves on why they have so few followers.  They don't have a feed on identi.ca, which is sad.  OEMKE does...I don't know about OEMad, but I started the OEMKE feed after OEMad.  It's becoming a bit much to handle all the different accounts.

Right now I'm struggling with Adobe AIR on x64 (TweetDeck, Twhirl), but once I get that figured out, I'll certainly follow @tcamp for next time.

Douglas A. Whitfield

Co-President Madison Linux User Group
http://madisonlinux.org/

Founder Open Madison Group (OMG!)
http://twitter.com/openmadison

[Dan Knauss]

Saturday Mar. 14 at the MCTS building, 1pm?
 
 

Dan Knauss

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/danknauss
New Local Media :: www.newlocalmedia.com
Twitter: @newlocalmedia

-----Original Message-----
From: oe...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oe...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Douglas A. Whitfield
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:11 PM
To: oe...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: changing name to OpenCamp rather than OpenEverything? in Milwaukee

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[Douglas A. Whitfield]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Dan Knauss <d...@newlocalmedia.com> wrote:

Saturday Mar. 14 at the MCTS building, 1pm?

March meeting isn't up on the website yet, but yep: http://www.milwaukeelug.org/NextMeeting

[Dan Knauss]

I might be able to attend that. Same long weekend as the conference for the Great Lakes Urban Exchange. You might want to go to some of this; there are workshops on organizing, advocacy, and community journalism which invariably means the web. (pass around to anyone who might be interested.)

GLUE Conference 2009

Speakers and workshops on best practices, ideas, and inspiration for the revitalization of our cities and our states.

Richard Longworth (Chicago Council on Global Affairs, author of Caught in the Middle: America's Heartland in the Age of Globalism) and Carol Coletta (CEOs for Cities, SmartCity Radio) are two of the speakers.

Recent agenda additions include site visits to the Menomonee Valley, Great Lakes Water Institute, and an art walk in the Third/Fifth Ward; a presentation from T4America Midwest Regional Organizer Kristin Purdy; a presentation about how to fund transit without raising taxes by Dave Wetzel, and more.

http://glueconference2009.wordpress.com/agenda/

Tickets are available to two dinner sessions (Sprecher and Trocadero) to Milwaukee residents who are unable to participate in the entire conference. Find out details about the sessions and how to register here:

http://glueconference2009.wordpress.com/2009/03/03/milwaukeeans-join-us-for-dinner/

 

-----Original Message-----
From: oe...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oe...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Douglas A. Whitfield
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:56 PM
To: oe...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: changing name to OpenCamp rather than OpenEverything? in Milwaukee

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Dan Knauss <d...@newlocalmedia.com> wrote:

Saturday Mar. 14 at the MCTS building, 1pm?

March meeting isn't up on the website yet, but yep: http://www.milwaukeelug.org/NextMeeting

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[Alnisa Allgood]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Dan Knauss <d...@newlocalmedia.com> wrote:
>
>
> By the way, I don’t know if any of you were tuned into tcamp, but I followed
> some of the #tcamp09 talk on Twitter and noticed that @tcamp had very few
> followers, and many of its key members had their feeds locked. Any ideas as
> to why???
>

Hi Dan-

To the best of my knowledge, Transparency Camp just had a tweet tag
#tcamp09 the user @tcamp has nothing to do with Transparency Camp.
Or he could, but he's not an organizer. The Sunlight Foundation
organized the event, and if I recall it filled up pretty rapidly. But
the weather was bad in DC that weekend, so who knows how attendance
was. But in terms of organizing, they did well. I think when it was
first announced, I heard over 150 people had registered. I don't know
what the max on space was, and I can't remember if they were
publishing the attendance list. But they raised over $8,000 to cover
expenses, so people were contributing if they were coming.

Sunlight has it's own Twitter account:
http://twitter.com/SunFoundation but it's really just a news feed,
that don't communicate much through it. Though they send info and talk
occasionally on the Progressive Exchange listserv. If you want session
notes go to: http://barcamp.pbwiki.com/Tcamp-Sessions

But yeah, a number of events, instead of setting up brand new Twitter
accounts, just claim a Twitter tag, that people agree to use when
posting, that way you can follow the conversation through a RSS feed,
via Twitter Search, or using the HashTags site.

But they had some big hitters, or at least people who I consider
influential in the world of open, like Chris Messina who does tons of
Open ID, and related work, Josh Tauberer who's back in data filters
for government data pretty much run every open government related
site, especially those funded through Sunlight, I think I even saw a
congressman or two.

[Dan Knauss]

Thanks, that's all good to know.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: oe...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oe...@googlegroups.com]

> --

> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.

> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.7/1982 - Release
> Date: 3/3/2009 4:09 PM

>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.

> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.7/1982 - Release
> Date: 3/3/2009 4:09 PM

>

--
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The Professional version does not have this message

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.7/1982 - Release Date: 3/3/2009
4:09 PM