Some Useful Advice for those who are on ODSP and will soon become a Senior

[justice4odsp]

Hi,

I've been playing catch up on some old email and I found one from
CLEONet that is very useful.

It describes in clear cut terms what you need to know if you're on ODSP
and will soon be eligible for OAS, etc. It had some interesting
surprises in there. Like, ODSP only stops if you are no longer income
eligible. It then tells you how you could become income eligible (mainly
for the extended health care benefits) if you think you're at risk that
you won't be.

Here is the link:
http://www.cleonet.ca/resource_files/1320774574ODSP&Aging.pdf

If some people are using a screen reader and these PDF files are not
accessible, please let me know. It will be easy to do a copy and paste
into an email so everyone can read it.

justice4odsp

[Lorene]

All I cay say is beware what ODSP tells those at over the age of 59,
if you get a letter from ODSP telling you to apply for OAS/CPP 2-3
months before you hit age 60. Their letter kind of threatens you if
you do not apply to fill out the application form within 2-3 months,
the ODSP will cut you off, regardless. That is what my mom got in the
letter. The month she turned 60, is when she first got OAS/CPP. Her
total income was less than $1000 at the time. This was back in 2003.
She was not eligible for Extended Health Benefits. She tried that and
the ODSP said no. I know because I was there and listened to what they
were telling my mom the reasons why which were B.S. at the time. Right
now, she gets a little over $1340 and her rent is $440 that includes
$30 for hydro. That is RGI rent amount.

Lorene

[Lorene]

I meant to add, not all those on ODSP will get the same letter age age
59. It is only certain people that get it with deceased spouses
(includes common law spouses, too) who may have or not CPP when they
worked. It is the living spouse who will be forced to apply just 3
months before they turned 60 for that according to the letter from
ODSP before they cut you off.

Take full advantage of getting dental care, drugs and eyeglasses while
on ODSP. That way they can get EHB when they do go on OAS/CPP. My mom
didn't and it was a mistake. She is the type of person who never tries
to take advantage of anything. She had to pay for her own drugs out of
her pocket from age 60 to 65. At the time when she turned 60, she was
okay for the first couple years with no health problems. Then she got
sick at 63 or so and needed medication and still continued to needed
it til age 65, so it was very expensive. At age 65, her drugs are
covered under the Ontario Drug Benefit for seniors. I know two other
people who were on ODSP and when they hit age 60, they got on OAS/CPP
and were able to get EHB so that their drugs are covered, along with
dental and eyeglasses.

Lorene

[Goldielover]

Thanks for that. Do you know if they can force you to take a private
work pension early, or is it just CPP/OAS? I have a locked in defined
benefit pension plan from a company I used to work for. It will be
the largest portion of my retirement income, but I can't collect it
unreduced until age 63. I can collect a reduced pension starting at
55 (my current age) but I'd really rather not jeopardize my entire
future like that. It would be reduced by as much as 39% if I collect
at 55, which is a pretty big hit to take. Right now, to be honest,
they know nothing about it. It is fully locked in, and fully employer
funded. They only asked me about RRSPs and other sources of funds I
could access immediately and not about any future work pensions when I
initially applied to OW, and I was under 55 when I applied.

For the rest of it, while it would be nice to keep the EHB, I suspect
I won't qualify.

On Jan 1, 8:58 am, justice4odsp <justice4o...@gmail.com> wrote:

[justice4odsp]

Lorene,

My mistake was fighting to get off medication. When I did that, I no
longer qualified for the extended health care benefits when I was
working full time. The wheelchair repairs and medical supplies didn't
add up to enough. I was told I could get CCAC to pay for the catheter
supplies, so I was cut off. Thankfully I had a good employee plan.

The policies just literally don't make sense. They are designed to
encourage one to stay as helpless as possible. The more progress you
make to adapt to your disability, the more funding and services you lose.

justice4odsp

[jbkeh]

As long as it cannot be "cashed out" as a lump sum (truly "locked-
in"), ODSP cannot 'force' you to agree to a lesser monthly pension
amount at an earlier age. If they could, ODSP would be making
everybody choose early CPP at age 60 (with a horrid reduction in
monthly CPP amounts).

[Goldielover]

Thank you. Yes, it is truly locked in. I have no option to cash it
out as a lump sum. At $1702.00 a month if I collect it unreduced, it
is the most important part of my retirement planning and I really
don't want to lose it. I'll have CPP and OAS too, but don't know what
the exact figures will be as I'm nine years away from 65. CPP is
currently at $819.00, but is going down a bit each year (it was
$836.00 in 2006) as I can no longer work full time due to my
arthritis. I expect my working capacity to continue decreasing and I
will need to do the math to see if it makes financial sense to take a
reduced early CPP, but I'd much rather that be on my terms, not
theirs. OAS I could see being at least $575.00 by the time I'm 65.
Maybe more if the calls to increase it are heeded I won't qualify
for GIS or GAINS as my income will be too high, and don't think I'll
qualify for the EHB either, unless I run into some pretty catastrophic
health problems between now and then. Still, its nice to know that it
is there for if it is really needed, and that article made for some
interesting reading.

[justice4odsp]

Hi,

It's really lucky you were able to work long enough to put money aside
like that. I worked full-time for 18 months and I also worked a few
part-time jobs for the maximum hours they would give me; 15 hours per
week and no benefits.

When I was working at $12.06 per hour, I wasn't able to put much aside
because all the other costs went up an insane amount. I knew things
would go up and I accepted it, but I didn't realize I would loose
several hours of attendant care and there would be so little left over.

It made me realize that I wasn't as bad off as I thought I was on ODSP
because I live in subsidized housing.

I was working for $22,500 per year (a gold mine in my eyes) and my
subsidize rent plus hydro totalled $588. I was working for more than
minimum wage. What do others do? When you consider that, according the
Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation web site, the market rent for
a one bedroom apartment in Kingston is $804 now and we have the lowest
vacancy rate in the province, I want to know, how do people survive?
You don't see them sleeping on the streets like you do in Toronto; the
odd one, yes, but not nearly the same numbers. Maybe we have a lot of
shelters. I really don't know. I know a good number of shelters aren't,
at least weren't, wheelchair accessible, but I don't know what the case
is now.

Another thing I learned while working, was that the other employees were
saying they couldn't take on that job and afford to survive if they
didn't have a spouse, kid, parent or whomever, was running the errands,
cooking the meals, and helping them out. Hmmm. I don't have any of
that and I actually lost service to help me with disability related
things, and yet I managed. Does this mean they expect to much, or does
it mean that I am super human? I rather suspect they were expecting too
much (in comparison to what we, on social assistance, are used to). I
don't think they were expecting too much realistic wise because with
more help, they were better able to keep the stress level down. I had to
quit when a simple thing like a 60-day Access Bus strike forced me to
cut my sleep down to 4 hours per night so I would have time to get
everything done and be able to motor the 11 kms to work by power
wheelchair the next day.

I guess having so little employment experience is the price you pay if
you develop a disability at the age of 15 and because of it, are too
incapacitated to work. I am better able to work using a wheelchair,
than I ever was, on the psychiatric drugs. They slowed my head down too
much and the side-effects were incredible. I hope the newer drugs have a
lot less than the drugs like Haldol, Stellazine, Chlorpromazine, and a
few others had. Those drugs used to incapacitate me. For this reason, I
have a high level of compassion and understanding of those who have this
invisible disability and are being judged so severely in today's society.

As for what will happen when I become a senior, it worries me to think
about my eligibility to get extended health care benefits because, when
I took on the full-time job, I was told I didn't qualify because my
expenses aren't high enough. I no longer take medications at all and I
pay on average, $113 for medical supplies and $180 for wheelchair
repairs and upkeep (annual cost/12 months). I see the dentist every 8
months, as is allowed on ODSP, and I get my eyes tested when I need to,
even though I qualify for an annual test instead of a test every 2
years. If ODSP is not in the picture, I will have to come up with the
25% that is not covered by the ADP program. To replace the batteries at
a cost of $550 every few years will also be a big hit because on a low
income, it's not easy to put it aside. There's too many days when an
emergency comes up and you find you need to spend that 'mad money.'

Thankfully I've got a few years to go before I'll seriously have to
worry about it, but it does concern me.

It's for this reason that I keep applying for government jobs. If I get
one, I'll only have to work a few years before I'll be set with a good
pension plan. The applications are in and I keep renewing and updating
my status so they know I'm still interested. I just wish I'd get a bite
or, better yet, an acknowledgment that they're even bothering to look at
me. I have so little work history and so little ability to be flexible,
they're probably just passing me by. They'll know roughly how old I am
by what's written on my resume, unfortunately.

justice4odsp

[jbkeh]

I cannot think how early CPP would have any benefit - you simply
reduce ODSP's payments at a horrendous cost to you. Conversely, if you
can obtain CPP-D now, it benefits ODSP but does not impact your CPP at
65 (in fact, it should slightly increase it).

[Goldielover]

jbkeh, the reason why it may benefit me to collect CPP early is that
it is decreasing yearly due to low income. Also, many financial
planners actually recommend it - something to do with life expectancy
and break even points, I think. No firm decision yet anyways - the
minimum age I would consider is 63, and I've another seven years to
go. I will need to choose between ODSP plus EHB for two years,
bearing in mind my daughter will most likely be on her own so ODSP
would be as a single, or taking my work pension (1702.00) plus a 12%
reduced CPP, which would be about $721.00 for a total income for those
two years of about $2423.00 before tax per month. OAS isn't a factor
as it wouldn't kick in until 65. I would probably get some of the tax
paid back at the end of the year. Even with the reduced CPP and
paying tax, that's a difference of several hundred dollars a month for
two years. A reduced CPP would cost me about $98.00 a month for life,
and that's what I need to balance against the two year gain. My mind
is boggling a bit over the calculations.

Justice, I consider myself extremely fortunate compared to many who
have been disabled for many years. I worked in the insurance industry
for almost thirty years, which is where the company pension comes from
(completely employer paid - it was a non-contributory plan). I was
laid off in 2006 and had trouble finding anything comparable due to
age and the economy. I eventually took a physical part time type of
job in 2009 which I continue to this day, but the arthritis is making
it very difficult to continue, and my days there are very numbered.
Indeed, one of the only reasons I have been able to keep going for as
long as I have is that it is very close and I don't need to take
public transit, not even go outside to get there. I am not capable of
handling rush hour Toronto buses, but am not quite disabled enough to
qualify for Wheel Trans. In any event, it is not reliable enough for
work. I am not stable on ice or snow, so am rather housebound during
bad weather, which also limits my employment options. I also consider
myself fortunate that I have no mental health issues - from what I can
tell those people seem to get the worst of it. And the biggest thing
that will help me through the next few years of relative poverty is
knowing that there is light at the end of the tunnel and that I will
not be poor forever.

[abrowne]

That's more than many get working.  I will be working until

I am dead because I was never lucky enough to get into a job

that had these kinds of benefits.   The maximum public pension

probably won't even cover my housing.

A

---

From: Goldielover <fio...@hotmail.com>
To: ODSP Fireside <odspfi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 3:00:12 PM
Subject: [odspfireside: 42552 ] Re: Some Useful Advice for those who are on ODSP and will soon become a Senior

.  I will need to choose between ODSP plus EHB for two years,

[Goldielover]

It will actually be around $3000.00 a month at age 65 with OAS.
Obviously no GIS or GAINS, but still well under the amount where they
start clawing back OAS. And yes, I was lucky. I never knew what I
wanted to do when I left school, and didn't even have a complete grade
twelve. I was twenty years old and on welfare, and took a minimum
wage job as a file clerk in an insurance company. There was room to
move upwards, and years later I ended up as a senior claims examiner.
I was in the industry until age fifty, and all but three years were
with the same company. I don't think too many younger people today
would have that kind of opportunity. These days it is difficult to
even get through the door without at least a college degree, and
people no longer tend to stay for years with the same company. It
just goes to show where life can take you,and that one should never
take anything for granted, though. I started out on welfare, and
thirty six years later am right back there again.

And yes, the public pensions are too low. While some progress has
been made with poverty among seniors, more needs to be done. I think
we will see more and more of this issue coming up, as my generation
heads into retirement. So many have lost their jobs and savings due
to the economy, and not all had decent company pensions. Likewise
senior health care. That's outright scary. The long term care system
is woefully inadequate, and the stress on that system is going to be
almost unimaginable unless something is done to fix it. Already
horror stories are hitting the press, and I expect to see more and
more of those.

On Jan 3, 7:19 pm, abrowne <browne200...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> That's more than many get working.  I will be working until
> I am dead because I was never lucky enough to get into a job
> that had these kinds of benefits.   The maximum public pension
> probably won't even cover my housing.
> A
>
> ________________________________

>  From: Goldielover <fion...@hotmail.com>

[abrowne]

Goldielover,

My case was bad timing.  I lived on my own since 16 and always

worked since I was 12.  However, I had no job opportunities that

would give me a job for life, with benefits, retirement, etc.  My

tenure was often based on how much money I got for the organization.

I was GOOD at this work and many years I made a LOT of money,

but I entered these types of jobs because after high school/college, the

"good jobs" with lifelong opportunities for progression were not there -- 

it was also a recession and they were only going to hire back people

who had already been laid off.  Then I went to school and kept right

on going to school for 10 1/2 years only to see another recession 

with employers of the "good jobs" holding the attitude that they will

only hire on those that were laid off ... I remember one time being

quite vocal asking how do I become somebody who had already

been laid off there, so I can have a chance at a future?

So, it was either the world of low wage, go nowhere jobs, or the

cut throat world of competitive contracts that I entered into.  I did

the contracts, because after 10 1/2 yrs university, I am not working

for McDonald's.  Getting into these positions was very tough, but

my job titles over the years included Executive Director, Organizational

Development Consultant, National Director, Provincial Coordinator,

Policy Consultant, and so on, all contract positions that paid very well,

but with few benefits and only for a few years each (as my work was 

primarily cleaning house in some of these jobs).  When my son was born, 

we were very well off - had a semi-private room at the hospital, 

where I had to stay for two weeks pre-delivery and one week post

for complications ... I literally made enough money in one of my 

biweekly pays to cover all of my bills, plus a full months of groceries

and then some ... I paid off my student loans (over $60K), did an RRSP,

but then then all of this was lost when I had to deal with a workplace 

bully in a subsequent job (which could have paid me for life and gave

me a pension), which left me broke, sick and without my driver's license.

I rallied enough at the time to do self-employment and make good

money doing both legal practice and employment supports/

business consulting, which brought me an okay lifestyle, though 

more stressful as any self-employment is, but when the employment

supports dropped off and prior to the changes in early 2006 they were 

to get rid of some providers (because they did not want small

businesses that were not exclusively doing this and not having

other employment related income), so I was dropped ... and my 

income doing other work was insufficient.  This went on long enough

where my husband had to do rapid reinstatement to ODSP, so there

goes my RRSPs, there goes my savings, there goes a whole lot of

things, which is very difficult to describe.  My health has taken a very

bad turn as a result of all of this, but I have to keep working.

I sincerely worry about the very low income of public pensions,

a maximum of $1,350 doesn't cut it.  My husband does not have

enough CPP credits to give me additional survivor benefits, so

he will die leaving me with the funeral costs to cover on my own.

He is several years older than me, so the chances of him dying

before me are very high and his health is way worse than mine.

Also, the only way I get extras is by working ... By not working, 

and just living on my husband's ODSP would be insufficient to

support my family.  I feel badly for those that have to do this, as

the amount is just simply not enough to maintain a healthy life.

But why did I have to scrap all of my RRSPs?  Why did I have to

scrap my savings?  And today, as most of you are familiar,even 

though it is my husband that is disabled on ODSP, I get stuck with

the same rules for self-employment as he would, and as a result,

you really cannot run a business and become self-sufficient, esp.

with a family to support.  My husband has developed kidney failure,

and nobody seems to know why he's having so many problems ...

he has a specialist that keeps putting him on different pills to no

avail, and I worry about this ... he worries about someday going

on dialysis.  I hope it never gets there.

So, by the time I hit my "golden years", I will have no retirement 

cushion at all because I am not allowed to build and grow my

business so that it can be sold as a transferable asset (or

even just keep it, retire and live off dividends) because the

business' value has to be kept low and not being permitted

employees substantially decreases the net value of the 

business in any sale, whether by asset or by shares.  To give

you a hint, a colleague of mine in the GTA area just sold his

practice, a turn key operation, for over $300,000 ... (he had 

two 1/2 full time employees) ... If I sold mine, I might get the value 

of desks, used computers, books, etc. but will have to almost 

pay somebody to take over the files that may not be concluded.

So, in retirement, I will end up having to pay my own dental,

my own extended health, etc. beyond the drug plan.  And if I am

unfortunate enough to need assistive devices, end up with a bill

for 25% that I would have no money for.  If I am not able to live

in my own home, which is the goal of most people, I would die

first before being put in a nursing home.

And because I will likely still have a mortgage, I will have to

continue working, not necessarily by choice, but by force, as I

would otherwise not have a home.  Elder poverty is going to 

become more and more of a reality as more people under 55

today retire.  My mother retired from the civil service and earns

over $3,500 a month, plus she rents out properties.

I don't even talk to her because she spends most of her money

on cosmetic surgery, travel, renovating her property, new cars

(paid cash), etc.  I have nothing in common with her.  She came

into the workforce just when the civil service under Trudeau was

expanding and there were ads in the paper for people to go write

exams and of course, she scored very high and got the pick of

jobs.  Unfortunate for her though is that she retired on a disability

and ended work at about 50 years old and a lot of her money

goes to health related items as well.  But at least, she can pay 

for these things.

But still because I will never enjoy that type of retirement, despite

working 80 hours a week, she thinks quite a bit less of me,

and lets me know, which is why we don't communicate.

A

---

From: Goldielover <fio...@hotmail.com>
To: ODSP Fireside <odspfi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 11:42:09 PM
Subject: [odspfireside: 42560 ] Re: Some Useful Advice for those who are on ODSP and will soon become a Senior

It will actually be around $3000.00 a month at age 65 with OAS.
Obviously no GIS or GAINS, but still well under the amount where they

start clawing back OAS.  And yes, I was lucky. ...

[Lorene]

Whoa! Thanks for telling your story, Angela. You and your mother are
not close. I am so sorry. I just can't imagine how you deal with it,
with your work, health problems, your ailing husband and your 2
children still growing up, mortgage, no benefits, no pension, etc.

My gosh, I don't know where I would have be at when it comes to my
mother who was always there for me and support me, no matter what. We
are close. The more older I get, the more I learn from her. The longer
she lives, the more she remembers more stories to tell me from the
past. I appreciated her very much. I wished my dad was still alive. He
has been gone 18 years this month, after being hit by a drunk driver
and was in coma for 4 and half years (he never woke up at all) til the
day he died on my birthday, which is coming in less than 2 weeks.
However I don't care for his second wife but I do care for my 2 half
brothers and 1 half sister. We don't talk, many lovely thanks to my
stepmother.

Lorene

>  From: Goldielover <fion...@hotmail.com>

[Lorene]

I am curious and confused at the same time when it comes to RRSP.
After my husband passed away in 2001, he left RRSP to me. It was close
to $7,000. ODSP knew this and told me that I had to keep the asset
level at $5,000 and under. So I had to withdraw some money out of the
RRSP to do this. ODSP told me I would be cut off for few months I
didn't do this. I made sure to lock in the RRSP. I used the money to
pay down the bills plus a gravestone for my husband's grave. I had to
save the receipts to show where the money went to and hand in to
satisfy the caseworkers.

After reading few posts on Fireside that certain people have RRSP
locked in. Some had more money locked in and some others less. I am
curious with this question "Does the rule not apply to a maximum of
$5,000 (for a single person) in savings, RRSP, mutual funds, etc, not
apply?"

What about if you are at age 65, you go on to OAS/CPP and take out
RRSP and you are officially off ODSP. Can the ODSP step in touch you
for overpayment?

Lorene

On Jan 2, 3:24 pm, jbkeh <j...@teksavvy.com> wrote:

[justice4odsp]

Angela,

Thank you SO much for sharing. You have no idea how reading this all in one spot sheds things in a different light. I want to call a truce and APOLOGIZE strongly for making comments about the negative (no vehicle and other things) and your judgements about the members with harsh statements all the time. I only get antsy about those and defend them, because I too, can be a bull-in-a-china shop and reply in a way that is considered far to blunt and misses my meaning entirely.

Hearing the negative was bringing me down and I have vowed to never give up, so I unfortunately did the human thing.. figured I could judge what I perceived as your choice to stay trapped, and say things that weren't as empathetic as they should be.

The stuff I'm uncovering is very different and, in a sense, tragic. It's also very liberating. 

For the first time ever, I really truly and strongly believe that in far too many cases, attitudes, bad timing, and the lack of an ability to listen long enough to get an understanding of what's really going on, has seriously disabled us... all of us.

In my case it was rouge doctors over-prescribing meds and causing far too many physical and mental ailments.  Some of them finally got their comeuppance when they lost their license to practice medicine, but that doesn't bring back all the life I wasted locked up, restrained, and drugged to death in the mental health system.

Your story is different, but I know very clearly about the massive change that took place in Employment Supports in 2006. I was within a hairs breath of getting a job as a web designer. I had to learn one more skill, was willing to teach myself, and had an agreement from the employer I was doing a job placement with, to mentor me, but the restructuring forced me to close my file, give up, suck up the loss of buying software on a line of credit that wasn't covered by ODSP (thinking I could pay it back when I started working), and having to wait 1 full year to start over.

The good ones that used to work for ODSP were let go and the next one that I got stuck with, wrote to my employer (the call centre) and told them I was being a sissy about the Access Bus issue - that they could make me work whatever shift they want because a wheelchair is no more limiting than a parent having to worry about finding child care for their kid. 

When I wrote her a long respectful letter to educate her on why there was a big difference between the 2 scenarios, she went to ODSP, told them I was impossible to work with, and then closed my file.

The employer, by this point, decided they could no longer talk to me - that she was the authority on what I needed for disability accommodation - and changed the time of my shift to something that was impossible to manage. ... and you all know the rest of the story.

The McGuinty government, in my opinion, has done far more damage than Mike Harris ever did to people who have a disability and were already fully qualified and declared to be permanently disabled under the old FBA program. I'm narrowing this comment down on purpose because I can't speak with authority on the damage Mike Harris did to those who were not on FBA or who were declared partially disabled.

Anyway, Angela, I really appreciate you sharing. When I know more about a person, I can understand them better. Please forgive me for being so harsh in the past.

justice4odsp (Louise - revealing this to give the human face to my reply)

[Goldielover]

I disagree with the way they treat earnings by a spouse. Its a shame
there isn't an option to pay the beneficiary as a single individual,
and leave the spouse's (or child's ) earnings alone. I don't quite
know how they'd deal with the asset amounts, though. There'd still
have to be a couple or family benefit option as well, of course. It
also seems unfair that RRSPs have to go, especially when governments
are trying to encourage people to save for their retirement. Maybe an
option to lock them in until age 65, or off the ODSP, whichever comes
first would be fairer. I also had to liquidate my RRSPs before I
qualified for OW. I sold my house, but that wasn't totally as a
result of my job loss. I am single and couldn't handle the yard
work. The stairs were also becoming difficult. I will eventually
live in my own place again, but this time it will be a condo. That is
the other area where I know I am extremely fortunate. There will
eventually be an inheritance from my mother that should be enough to
enable me to buy a condo mortgage free. She is currently 96 years
old, and living in an extended care facility attached to a hospital
out in BC. She is happy there, she has a ground floor private room
looking out into the garden, and the nurse in charge is actually my
cousin who has always been very fond of her. I hope she's with us for
quite awhile yet, but realistically I know that at 96 anything can
happen. She's actually fairly healthy, in spite of having had a major
stroke at 87 they said she wouldn't recover from and sent her to
palliative care. She proved them wrong, and four months later was
walking again and living at home, where she stayed for another five
years. I hope I do as well in my old age, but I somehow doubt it. My
arthritis is actually worse than hers, and she's forty years older
than I am.

On Jan 4, 2:42 am, abrowne <browne200...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>  From: Goldielover <fion...@hotmail.com>

[jbkeh]

RRSPs are not pensions, but rather a means for saving (that's the "S")
money by deferring the taxes on it until you retire (and then use the
savings to purchase an 'annuity' which will provide monthly payments).
Very few RRSPs are structured to be truly "locked-in" so that it is
impossible to withdraw money from it before retirement age, but rather
provide an "incentive" to leave it alone by charging extreme financial
"penalties" for early withdrawal. ODSP doesn't care - if you can close
out the RRSP, you are required to do so, no matter the cost to you,
until your non-exempt assets are below the maximum allowed for your
Benefit Unit.