A topic for discussion - comparing Ontario and Alberta

[justice4odsp]

Hi,

Given the latest turn of events in Ontario, I would like to share this
link and open up a discussion. Lots of concerns have been voiced about
what Alberta has for their disabled and I don't see it.

This report is a fairly recent one (November 2011) and the author
compared Alberta's AISH pension to Ontario's. From what I can make out,
people can work, live in relationship with someone else and not have
their cheque's affected, etc.

The title is INCOME SUPPORT FOR PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES by Ronald
Kneebone and Oksana Grynishak (from the School of Public Policy,
University of Calgary).

Here is the link, for those who are up to reading it and having some
discussion: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1940527#

I can see NOTHING bad in this report about Alberta at all. In fact,
after reading it, I felt one can only dream of how to move there.

justice4odsp

[abrowne]

That;s not quite right, justice. AISH does have some implications for spouses and the amount of

income earned in a family is capped.  

From http://www.assembly.ab.ca/lao/library/egovdocs/alhre/2001/135974.pdf

AISH Eligibility

To qualify for AISH, everything on the following list must match your situation:

The disability must be permanent.  You may not qualify for AISH if treatment for your

condition will help you to be able to work.

You must not have refused to take or look for reasonable employment for reasonable

wages.  You must not have quit work that you were capable of doing.

You must not have refused or neglected to take training, rehabilitation or medical

treatment which would help you to be able to work.

Your income and the income of your spouse must not exceed the limits allowed under

the program.

Please note

The information in this booklet serves only as a general guideline to the program.  An

AISH Administrator determines whether you qualify for AISH.

Your assets and the assets of your spouse must not exceed the limits allowed under the

program.

You must be 18 years old or older, but not eligible to receive an Old Age Security pension.

You must be a permanent resident of Alberta.

You cannot be residing in an institution such as the Michener Centre in Red Deer or an

Alberta mental hospital, since the institutions provide for all your needs.

The disability must be so severe that it substantially limits your ability to earn a living. 

Your disability must be the main factor, not your age, lack of education or lack of

available jobs.

You must claim or collect the benefit of any asset you qualify for (such as an inheritance).

Spouse means:

i) a person of the opposite sex with whom you live and to whom you are married, or

with whom you have declared a common-law relationship for any purpose

ii) with whom you have had a marital or common-law relationship and maintain a

financial inter-dependency, other than child support.

Income And How It Affects Your AISH Benefits

i) The first $200 of total income is exempt plus 25% of any amount over $200 if you are:

-  a single person

-  married or living common law, where both you and your spouse are eligible for AISH

(In this situation both you and your spouse will qualify for this exemption.)

ii)  The first $775 of total income is exempt and 25% of any amount over $775 if you are:

-  a single parent with one or more dependants

-  married or living common law, and only you are eligible for AISH

-  married or living common law, both you and your spouse are eligible for AISH

and you have children  (In this situation only one person will qualify for this

exemption, the other person will qualify under rule (i) above.)

iii) The first $400 of total income received on behalf of a dependent child is totally

exempt.  Any amount over $400 is deducted dollar for dollar from your AISH benefit.

0000

Their asset level is higher, but a spouse can still not have any meaningful retirement vehicle.

Angela

---

From: justice4odsp <justic...@gmail.com>
To: ODSP Fireside <odspfi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:23:40 PM
Subject: [odspfireside: 45707 ] A topic for discussion - comparing Ontario and Alberta

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[justice4odsp]

Okay,

I'll accept this part... I'll have to read more to see if other things in the report I shared to the link are misguided. 

However, they still got a raise, they still get more money than us, and they can work while collecting it (and keep more of what they earn).

It also seems they can live with someone else and it has less of an impact than what we have here.

I haven't done an in-depth study on this at all so I'm just sharing info that I read and trying to promote more discussion.

Oh yeah, according to what info was found by a friend of mine (in Ontario) who was thinking of moving out there and was asking a lot of questions when she was visiting (and before they found out she doesn't live in Alberta), the rules are less onerous, the money given is more, and there are more supports in the community in some other regards.

I don't accept hearsay at face value or call a friend's opinion the gospel truth - it's the opinion shared by one person, how she understands it, and it was enough to make me curious enough to want to learn more.

That rule that social assistance recipients can't move to another province, unless they can find a sponsor or be self-sufficient for 6 months, was all that stopped her from moving out there to be with a strong friend and support... Here she has absolutely nothing (services that won't give her service unless she does nothing to help herself and is convincing enough that they MIGHT consider helping her again).

She's more able than me physically, but less able to cope due to lack of cognitive skills. And yet she can't get any help whatsoever to manage ODSP rules, get a job (or volunteer job) or get into something where she can be integrated, make friends, and be less lonely.

I worry about her because, at times, she gets very suicidal.

Alberta, to be near her friends, would have been just the right answer for her (and me). I have an aunt and 5 cousins out there who would be way more supportive than my immediate family is. The aunt suffered the same demise from her brother (my dad), as I did. She was blamed for everything that fell apart on her - her broken marriage, no child support, (because her ex was a lawyer and figured out how to avoid such responsibility),etc. I don't get these men that blame the women for everything, but that seems to be the world I was brought up in; the Conservative agenda through and through. 

All I can say is Alberta looks a lot better in many regards than Ontario. If you look at the taxation links as well, you will see Alberta taxes people a lot less, so I'm not sure how they do it.

justice4odsp

[Kaye33]

Hi Justice,

I live in Alberta now and have been on AISH for a few years here as
well as my husband. We lived on ODSP for about five years before.
Living in Alberta is like a dream in comparison.

The info. that was posted above appears to be out of date. They
have been increasing AISH a significant amount over the past four
years or so.

If you do a search on Alberta AISH you'll find the updated amounts.
Alberta's new government just increased the rates and the income
exemption. As of April this year a single person gets $1588 a month.
The first $800 of income for a single person is totally exempt. Yep,
you read right. Also, a single person can earn up to $1500 a month
and keep 50% of anything over the first $800 before income is deducted
dollar per dollar. A disabled person with working spouse can earn
$1950 in exempt income. Special diet allowance of up to $150 also may
be granted.

It is hard to get on AISH though. And the disability has to be
considered permanent. But if you qualify, it is a different world
than living on ODSP.

http://www.seniors.alberta.ca/aish/announcements.asp#20120401rates

>  From: justice4odsp <justice4o...@gmail.com>

[abrowne]

Kaye,

It is true Alberta gives individuals more, but it is much harder

to get on.  Most of the people on it now in Ontario likely would

not be eligible, as there is an element of "permanently unemployable"

in its definition, even though a recipient can work.  You can still

be an older worker with lower education, health issues caused by

poverty and be unable to work, but not meet the strict medical

criteria.  The reason I say this is because I know some folks in

Alberta, and what happens to them is they end up on welfare

for a lengthy period of time.  Also, where a person has to accept

any treatment, rehabilitation, etc. to help make them "employable"

(assuming there is a job that will hire?) ... does this mean receipt

mandates say, taking of psychiatric medication (which can be

risky for some people)?

I am a spouse, and I don't believe spouses should be affected at all.

As a result, I have NO retirement vehicle of my own and will likely

not be able to retire.  It's good to see spouses can earn more exempt,

but that still caps them.  I am self employed, but I am not familiar

with how Alberta treats self employment income... here in Ontario,

we are not allowed to hire staff, which keeps my income very low,

even if a work twelve to fifteen hours a day.  The key benefit for

AISH if BOTH spouses were eligible.

Angela  

---

From: Kaye33 <kimberly...@gmail.com>
To: ODSP Fireside <odspfi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:07:45 AM
Subject: [odspfireside: 45711 ] Re: A topic for discussion - comparing Ontario and Alberta

[Chris Carey]

Justice,

This is a good conversation. I'm glad you raised it. Its important to know how poor Canadians with disabilities are treated outside of Ontario.

I know nothing of the other provincial support programs.


Chris

[Louise]

Wowwwwwwww 1600 a month???? I am moving to alberta! What a wonderful dream. And this is the same country we are talking about? No more having to put my life in danger just to buy toothpaste and toilet paper.

------------------------------

[Denny B.]

holy mackerel, are you saying AB disability is 1600 per month? I know I could do
the intelligent thing and go look it up online, but I just saw this post and have
to ask immediately.

Sheesh, I have a sister out there in Calgary; makes me think....

[Santa's Rosiest Elf]

But, what is the cost of living out there? I think it's considerably higher than here.   Also, do they have dental, eyeglasses, medical transportation coverage? Diabetic supplies, surgical supplies etc?   Rosie       -------Original Message-------

[Denny B.]

I have taken a look, a bit, into this and found a rather general
link covering Alberta Works. I think there's a link to find
disability benefits too. It appears to me that Alberta has
associated, to a degree, both it's "works" program and it's
"disability" program; I maybe wrong. None the less, it claims
that an individual can apply for assistance at 585$ month.

I can't even imagine why they would bother giving a person that
small amount of money and expect it to make a difference for anything
in any positive way.

I don't know; I think the social phobia and prejudice towards assisting
people by giving money is just simply out of hand. It seems the gov. is
just riddled with "decision making" fear when it comes to financial
assistance. This whole mentality of "oh my god, get a job" crap is
profoundly misguided. The terms "hand outs", "free money",
"welfare bum" etc. have been implanted into the social psyche far
more deeply than we think... Terms like that have arisen in a society
that's full of pissed off people who hate their jobs, feel they are worth
much more than what they get paid, are overworked etc.

Top that mind set along with the salivating capitalist Tories and we
end up with what we have now. Every man for himself.....

denny -

---

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:39:41 -0400
From: santas.ro...@gmail.com
To: odspfi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [odspfireside: 45732 ] A topic for discussion - comparing Ontario and Alberta

[justice4odsp]

Hi,

Here is a link that will show some info about rents in Calgary: http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/odpub/esub/64371/64371_2011_A01.pdf?fr=1335490557513
and here is a link that will show some info about rents in Edmonton: http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/odpub/esub/64379/64379_2011_A01.pdf?fr=1335490709889

When you open these links there's an affordability indicator graph as well (Page 7 for both Calgary and Edmonton). For those who don't know average rents in Ontario, it's not that far off what you find here based on city size, etc.

To research more, go to this link (http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/reho/index.cfm) and play - somewhere in there there are some comparative stat sheets that you'll also find are enlightening.

To find more about the cost of living in various parts of the country including the amount of inflation and on what goods, go to: http://cansim2.statcan.gc.ca/cgi-win/cnsmcgi.exe?LANG=e&ResultTemplate=CST&CORCMD=GETEXT&CORTYP=1&CORRELTYP=5&CORID=2301

Ontario just lost its credit rating after the budget vote so, unless there's a serious rethinking of policy, it's not going to be easy.  In the workshop I will be attending next week, there's one on the cost of NOT fixing things to lower the cost of poverty. I can't wait to hear what that workshop presenter has to say.

It's insane to do as Ontario is doing right now.  McGuinty should be booted out now!!!

justice4odsp

[abrowne]

Justice,

The Alberta system from what I hear and even its definition in the

page I sent the group seems to be much more difficult to get on and

seems to be based on the same criteria as CPP without having to 

pay into it.  Some people on ODSP have been able to get CPP, but

this is a minority.  They also tie a lot of their programming to the feds

as well too, such as the Disability Tax Credit.  Even if my husband 

paid into CPP, he'd never be eligible.  I know this because I have 

appealed many cases on others' behalf and many who are much, much

sicker with a clearer disability have been denied here by the CPP

Review Tribunals.  If you have a clear physical disability that is not

going away and you cannot work BECAUSE of that disability (and not

because of discrimination, lack of accessibility/transit or education, etc.)

then you *might* be eligible.   Be careful what you wish for ...

I am fearing Ontario may see Alberta's model as a good one to go with,

and those not eligible will likely be put to work and cut to OW.

I know a fellow in Alberta who cannot use his hands or stand or sit

very long and he is in pain 24/7 - he has been denied AISH.  He can't

work.  His wife is on oxygen and in a wheelchair and she gets it.

They are living on her AISH.  

Angela

---

From: justice4odsp <justic...@gmail.com>
To: odspfi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 9:34:44 PM
Subject: Re: [odspfireside: 45740 ] A topic for discussion - comparing Ontario and Alberta

I've already written to our inside source to ask for tips on how to get over the inter-provincial barriers that prevent us from moving to another province if we need to go onto their social services programs until we can get established enough to find a job. I have caring relatives out there - an aunt and her 5 children, their children, etc.  I don't have that caring family support here.

justice4odsp

[Kaye33]

Hi again,

Louise, I started an e-mail to you, but didn't get to finishing it -
I want to think more about what might be helpful in response to some
of your questions. I will post some thoughts here for now.
Hopefully this will also be a bit of help.

Angela, you have had it hard a long time. It is rough when the
working spouse gets penalized. When we lived in Ontario my husband
was denied ODSP, despite dr.'s papers in order etc. So he tried to go
back to work. He ended up in really rough shape, and in the end,
instead of getting ahead, we came away with a large overpayment which
we are still paying back several years after leaving Ontario. Here
though, my hubby does freelance work and instead of being penalized
for working, he can help support us. That goes a long way for his
esteem, and also for our quality of living.

In your case Angela, with an income exemption of $1950 for the
working spouse and $1588 for the disabled spouse that comes to about
$3500 that is guaranteed to not be garnished. You can doublecheck
that to make sure I got that correct, but I think that's the case.

In another scenario, two disabled spouses each get the rate for a
single because their files are not lumped together like in Ontario.
So a married couple with both on AISH get $1588 times 2.

So yes, Denny, yeah, it's for real. about $1600 a month.

Before the recent increase a single person was getting $1188 a
month so it was still hard for a single person. But with the recent
increase, a single person on AISH has a chance at a decent life in
Alberta. Our new premiere has expressed that basically it is a
province's responsibility to take care of its 'most vulnerable.'

Another world of difference is they increased the amount of gifts a
recipient can receive without being penalized. The limit went from
$5000 to there being NO limit.

Rosie, I don't know off hand everything. I know they have coverage
for dentist, glasses, hearing aids, and if you look at the link I
posted earlier, the rest should be outlined there I think.

Another cool thing is that they allow for AISH recipients to be out
of the province for six months instead of only one month without
penalty. So the cheque is still there every month in that timeframe
even if you're not.

When we first moved here rent was cheaper than where we had lived in
Ontario. It's gone crazy since, but still I don't personally find it
more expensive in comparison, but that is just going by general info.
(browsing online at times and watching HGTV :). What I would
suggest is if you really want to get an idea, go on the kijiji web-
site and look under real estate. Click Alberta and then go through
the different cities. Calgary is expensive, but there are smaller
cities and towns that are decent.

It is true that AISH is hard to get on, at least for me it was.
Here, when I had to appeal, I had to go for two days of questions, and
review my life story basically. Work history, disability, take a
bunch of work placement tests etc. It was really intense.

In Ontario I was granted ODSP twice the first time around. Here, it
was a fight. Like Angela posted, it can be very difficult and not
everyone will qualify.

Our experience was that we had to live on social assistance for
several months after arriving, and they made us reapply every month.
That was exhausting and very stressful.

The rental market where we landed here was nothing like where we
came from in Ontario. Here, if we waited until the next day to call
the place would always be taken. So we learned we had to act fast.
We actually were homeless because we couldn't find a rental here soon
enough early on, but a pastor and his family took us in until we found
one to move into several weeks later.

Of course, re. the details of the AISH amounts etc., it's possible I
don't have all my information perfectly correct. I'm going on what I
know by memory and experience. So if anyone wants to know for sure
what's what I would say to check out the link I posted to verify
things or make some phone calls to Alberta's reps.

And of course, I'm not advocating moving to Alberta or not. But if
you are thinking of it, having family to stay with would be very good
because it can be a fight and take time to get approved and that's IF
they decide you qualify. But for us, it was worth the fight.

Anyway, I just wanted to let people know a bit more about things in
Alberta.

Maybe Ontario will do and be better some day. I hope so!

[Colline]

Good Morning all

Since we are talking about other province's benefits, I have set a
departure date for
October 2013 to go back to BC. I have a Son out there.
Anyone have any info or links?

A hug to all
Colline

[john surphlis]

look like i'am one of those minority leaving o.d.s.p. for cpp-d it took me three trys to get and without legal aid, they abonded me, my first win was the disability tax credit back in june 2010, i just paid back o.d.s.p. it took like 55% of my retropayment, now waiting to see how much i owe ontaro works and my social housing. thanks john
 

---

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 20:08:05 -0700
From: browne...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [odspfireside: 45749 ] A topic for discussion - comparing Ontario and Alberta
To: odspfi...@googlegroups.com

[abrowne]

Kaye,

Except one thing ... my husband will likely not qualify, as

would most people (approximately 60 - 70%) of those that

currently qualify for ODSP.  Because I work in the legal

system I am basing this on my analysis of what the word

"severe" means and my experience in obtaining CPP-D

benefits for people, including those that paid into it ...

AISH does not take age, discrimination, lack of accessibility,

lack of education or anything else but *medical*.  This is

the problem.  Because whether somebody is able to work or

not has much *more* to do with everything else in addition

to the person's medical condition.  Even CPP takes some of

that into account under the Vilianni decision, but AISH will

only permit medical and extensive testing.  They do this in

the UK, and less than 30% of those undergoing this type of

testing actually qualify as being disabled.  That's probably why

Alberta can "afford" to be generous with the small group of

people that can get on it.

 

He does not qualify for the Disability Tax Credit either, or

any other definition including 'severe', but he isn't going to

be working any day soon.  ODSP has made him essentially

*my* problem, though I have nothing to do with making him

disabled or not able to work.  If I leave him, he will still continue

to be my problem because ODSP will not issue him cheques

unless he sues me for half my income.

 

Even if miraculously he would be able to do this, we would

have to be able to get to Alberta, a place where I know nobody

who would take me in as a guest as I seek housing and a job.

That would be a fortune in coins I do not have ;-)  As I said in

another post, just moving to Toronto alone when I spoke to my

real estate agent who knows our disability issues, the cost for

the move (including fixing my house up to sell, winding down

my practice -- it's going to cost ME to get rid of my business

because that is the way ODSP has set it up, etc.) is over $50K.

Let us be realistic here.  As of January 1, 2013, there will be

no more CSUMB and even if there is, the amount comes

nowhere near the amount one needs to actually move and get

there.  Also, is there a job guarantee for me? 

 

I would definitely have to live in Calgary or Edmonton because

I cannot drive.  I don't know the attitudes of employers there,

but the ones here assume you have no skills and an intelligence

level somewhat just above a chimpanzee if you don't drive.  That

is why I am stuck self employed.  The work I do is not the issue,

but the self employment is.  I know employers pay better in Alberta

especially for valued talent, but I have had little luck in getting

assistance for that the minute they ask for my driver's license.

 

I realize when you said the spouse can earn up to $1950, but again,

WHY is the spouse capped at all?  If the disabled spouse is disabled

and entitled to a pension benefit, it should have no bearing from the

working spouse's point of view.  If my husband were able to get a

good CPP cheque (which is still below AISH even at its max), my

income would have NO bearing whatsoever, nor would my income

have any bearing if he got WCB benefits or Long Term Disability

or even Employment Insurance, etc.  If he was over 65 and got OAS,

my income would only affect his GIS amount, not his OAS.

 

I don't want my income capped.  I want to be able to earn as much as

I can, as well if I am self employed to be a "real" business that hires,

fires, invests, etc. as opposed to a glorified "dog walking business"

which ODSP policy folks think we're only capable of.  I also don't

want government to touch my RRSPs.  I had to ditch all of mine so

my husband can get his benefit back when I didn't know when I will

be able to return to work.  Those qualifying for the Disability Tax

Credit get the RDSP; working spouses get nothing.  My husband, not

eligible for the DTC, like about 70% of ODSP clients ... will also

get nothing and if he dies, I will get nothing not even their piddly

death benefit from CPP-D.

 

I agree Alberta has tried to make this a positive benefit and much,

much less onerous in many ways than Ontario's, but I am at the same

time realistic.  I think it is only when the person with the disability

works, that the benefit be affected.  AISH is closer to that model, but

not close enough to refrain from restraint of trade against the spouses,

and others.  The thing that ODSP forgets about the Family Law Act is

that BOTH spouses are obligated to support one another, not just

the one way as it is now ... because all I am in my family is a wallet.

 

And this is why I am not very well much of the time lately, because

normal people wouldn't put up with this treatment.  Why should I?

As I said the married couples where both spouses are disabled do

the best under the AISH system.

 

Angela

 

You (Kaye) wrote ...

... In your case Angela, with an income exemption of $1950 for the

[abrowne]

John,

It is good you have been able to get this.  I do try to get

clients with disabilities here that would be eligible to apply

for the Disability Tax Credit, as many do meet the definition.

Most of these people are on CPP-D or something else, very

few on ODSP (although some on ODSP can get the DTC).

Angela

[Santa's Rosiest Elf]

I couldn't find anything about one bedroom rents in there, but the two bedrooms looked kinda high.   I pay $450 plus utilities for a split level 2 bedroom with private yard.   Rosie    -------Original Message-------

From: justice4odsp Date: 26/04/2012 10:57:43 PM To: odspfi...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [odspfireside: 45744 ] A topic for discussion - comparing Ontario and Alberta

[john surphlis]

i got the disability tax credit before i got onto o.d.s.p. speaking of o.d.s.p. they cashed the bankdraft i sent them after the 17th of april but no letter from them, my last letter was from april 16th, so i wonder if i'am on my own to pay for my medication for may, will check mondays' mail, i appallyed for the truillum drug plan, but that could take like 4 months to get onto, but my doctor tells me they will back payment. thanks john
 

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Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:32:09 -0700
From: browne...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [odspfireside: 45774 ] A topic for discussion - comparing Ontario and Alberta
To: odspfi...@googlegroups.com

[Denny B.]

I keep reading this acronym AISH; what does it mean I can't find out anywhere..?

[abrowne]

Alberta Income Support for the Handicapped

From: Denny B. <d_...@hotmail.com>
To: odspfi...@googlegroups.com

[Denny B.]

Thanks for the definition angela; it was driving me crazy 'cus I couldn't
figure it out using the word "disability" lol

denny -

[Justice4odsp]

Take a look at the one bedroom rental rates for Kingston in new buildings. It's over $1,000 per month. Alberta is a bit less.

That being said, getting an apartment there lough a private landlord or in part of a house, is always the best.... If you don't need an elevator, etc.

When I first have to move out of the supportive housing and into an apartment alone, I looked everywhere because I knew I couldn't afford and apartment that took something like 60% or more of my cheque per month. None of the private renters was accessible.

Boy, are you every lucky with what you've got though.

Justice4odsp

[Kaye33]

Hi Louise,

I have been thinking if there is anything I could add re. your
question about getting around provincial barriers, and beyond what I
wrote back here, I don't really have much advice. When we moved here,
we just went on faith, and didn't know to expect. We met some
merciful people along the way who helped us out basically.

I think I read that you have family in Alberta. They could be a
contact for you - that seems the best way to go to find specific
answers to your questions if you have a good relationship with them.

re. how social services works now, I don't know if you have to be a
resident for a certain amount of time or not. The name of the program
is Alberta works. If you contact them, they could tell you. Check
the link below for more info:

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/publications_resources/social_policy/sasr_2008/page12.shtml

My husband and i didn't really do things in a traditional way so I
don't really have resources I can recommend.

Salvation Army in Alberta maybe? For temporary housing or to help
you find resources and info.?

I think I read here before that you have graphic design training?
Would you be able to find some work online that you could do with that
and carry it over if you were to move out of province?

From what you say, since you think you would qualify, it sounds
worth investigating further. Go online and do a search for AISH
Alberta and maybe there will be some other links that will come up.
If you do move, you can look into a rent supplement. Last I checked
they give priority to 'emergency cases,' otherwise there is a waiting
list (I don't know how long). Their link is below:

http://www.crhc.ab.ca/programs-and-services/direct-rent-supplement-program.aspx

I hope that helps.