Communicating with your OW/ODSP Worker via Email

[Ron Payne]

This is an open letter to the ODSP Action Coalition members on this list.

I am presently working on a proposal to the Ontario government regarding communicating with ones OW/ODSP worker via Email.

If my memory serves me correctly the coalition has done presentations to the government before on different issues.

I do recall that Angela has inquired before re this issue to this list with no responses.

I am wondering if the collition might be willing to take a look at my proposal, research and evidence on this issues with the idea of quarterbacking this kind of thing.

I am looking for info on what might be needed and whom to send it to and such.

Does anyone on this list have any thoughts or info regarding this?

Please respond to this list or contact me offline at the email address below

Ron Payne                                                                                                                  Welfare Legal                                                                                                            Hamilton, Ontario

Email me at welfarel...@hotmail.com
welfarelegal2004(at)hotmail(dot)com

[bastetschylde]

I highly support the proposal to communicate with OW/ODSP worker via e-
mail, as a person with a hearing impairment. Although I can often
carry on a conversation over the phone, there may be important
information that I can miss so I prefer to have communication written
out if possible. I discussed this with my worker and she said it is
against the policies due to privacy issues. I asked her to bring this
issue up to her supervisor but I don't think that she did.

Perhaps if you have examples of other programs, particularly ones that
deal with pensions, which use e-mail for people to communicate with
their workers, and research on its effectiveness, that would be a good
idea to use as backup to counteract the "privacy issue" argument.
Another solution to the "privacy issue" is that ODSP can hire a
programmer to develop an unique webmail account that only clients and
workers can use - like what universities do - and universities will
not respond to any e-mails outside of accounts with that webmail
address.

I'd love to see this proposal.

-B.C.

[Darlene]

I would think you should be able to get a TTY device with the
assistance of the Ontario government. I've seen all kinds of items
about various government websites being rebuilt to make them
accessible to the visually impaired; getting a TTY device should be a
walk in the park!

[Lorene]

Count me in. I am hearing impaired. I was told by OW many years ago
that they can't use email due to privacy issues and that the computers
are not very secured. I imagine ODSP feel the same way too.

Lorene

On Mar 24, 10:03 am, bastetschylde <miladysekh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[benjer weigl]

i brought this up to the windsor office  as  well, and asked to be accomadated by email, however they sent me a letter saying that thier computer system is not set up to handle email betrween clinets and caseworkers plus the privacy issues, it would say it is a duty to accomadate under the ontraio human rights code. however the windsor office did accomadate me by now comminicating wiht me through direct mail, in that way everyting may be slower but at least it is in writing, another benefit of email would be that you could attache files if you have a scanner etc, and then email that file to the case worker  who could never claim she did not get it.
 

---

Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:33:53 +0000
Subject: [odspfireside: 35880 ] Communicating with your OW/ODSP Worker via Email
From: welfarel...@gmail.com
To: odspfi...@googlegroups.com

[katkit]

I think the "privacy issues" stem more from the fact that an email is
recorded on BOTH ends, and even if you delete it from one end, it is
still on the other end. Emails you can prove better than a phone call

[Ron Payne]

BC your worker is 100% wrong. All Ontario Disability Support Program (ODSP) and Ontario Works (OW) workers have an email address and are connected to the internet at work.

By law they must be able to communicate with certain clients via email under "Duty To Accommodate". I am sure this was made to accommodate shut-ins.

Ron Payne
Welfare Legal

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 2:03 PM, bastetschylde <milady...@gmail.com> wrote:

I highly support the proposal to communicate with OW/ODSP worker via e-mail,

-B.C.

[Lorene]

Ron, they have never made that suggestion to me. They know I am
hearing impaired and required TTY to use. Couple times, I have been
called to ODSP for review or whatever it is called to update my
records. Guess what, I show up for my appt to find there is ASL
interpreter there for me. I am thinking I never requested ASL
interpreter because I do not use ASL (American Sign Language). I don't
know how to use it to talk. It costs money to hire ASL for those
appts. In fact, I did them several times I do not require ASL over the
years. They never listened to me or misunderstand on purpose so they
can waste money. They have pay them for their requires, even if I
don't them need regardless. I have told them in the past I do not
require ASL. They never listened to me. They pulled the same trick
when I was on OW, too. They never said one word about email to me at
all. Like you said it is probably only for those who shut-ins, but not
for me, as I am able to get out and walk on my own. I remembered some
incident at the ODSP. I can't remember what it was about. The
caseworker said to me they have been trying to call me on the phone. I
said did you use TTY to call. She looked at my file and couldn't find
such information. I said if your office is calling me, I would ignore
the phone call. I said to her there should be a piece of paper
attached to the front of my file saying I am hearing impaired and how
to contact me either thru TTY, email or snail mail only. She said that
is a good idea. I don't know if that is being done or not. I even add
to there should be a P.S. attached to the paper that I do not require
ASL interpreter services at all as to save hire costs to pay for the
services.

Lorene

[Ron Payne]

Yes katkit it is also easier to prove after handing in a document and it goes missing

[Lorene]

Darlene, are you hearing impaired? Have you used a TTY to talk to
anyone? Have you actually try typing and waiting for a replay back?
Yes, they are great, but they are time consuming. A lot of other
places do not have TTY equipped in a lot of government buildings.

Anyone on ODSP can get one paid for by ODSP. Just go in to Canadian
Hearing Society (CHS) with your ODSP statement with ID number shown
and order one. CHS know me very well for so many years that I didn't
need a doctor's or audiologists's note to say I am hearing impaired.
In couple weeks, CHS will let you know it is there to pick it up at
their office. You can get a new one every 5 years. I am due for a new
TTY in couple years.

To use TTY, (for anyone who do not know what TTY or TDD stands for -
it is Teletype Device for the Deaf or Telephone Device for the Deaf)I
would have to dial 711 to talk to any Bell Relay (BRS) or Rogers Relay
(RRS) Service Operator. A conversation what I have to say, for e.g. if
I wanted to to ODSP caseworker using TTY from my home, I would have to
use the BRS or RRS to help me to do the talking for me. The operator
listens to the other party on the other line and she types it out for
me to read. It is very time consuming. I don't like typing and giving
out a lot of my private and personal information to the operator for
her to repeat to the other person on the other end. The operators have
to be careful to keep everything confidential. How do I know they are
honest and trustworthy?

So if I want to call Revenue Canada or someone, I use TTY and then
have to give my SIN out. I don't like the idea of giving that out to
the operator to tell the other person what my SIN number is. How do I
know if he or she will not give out my SIN and take out loans, etc in
my name?

The same goes for my bank debit card number given out on the phone.
How do I know that person will not copy my number and get a new card
made and withdraw money out of my account?

Yes, I do know Revenue Canada has their TTY phones. But there is
almost never anyone answer it. I would have to leave a message and
phone number for them to get back to me. They never call me back.

When I had student loans, I have to call to get an extension on
interest relief years ago every 6 months for 5 years. I call the
number with the BRS or RRS operator's help. They always ask my SIN. I
refused to give it out because of the operator doing the talking. I
just don't trust the operator no matter what. They had to use other
means, like my full name, address and phone number, next of contact or
kin number. I had no problem giving that information out, but I
refused to give them my SIN out. Yes, I could have someone, like my
mom or my husband, do the talking for me on the phone and giving out
my private information. I have no problem with that. But they need a
letter of permission or something like that with my signature that I
authorize this so and so, etc. They refused to acknowledge the letter
giving them permission for some reason. I fought over that so many
times until I was blue in my face. I used to gave them a hard time.
They were giving me a hard drive and threatening me with action too.

If I had problems with my Internet and cable, I have to call myself
from my home phone, according to their rules so that my phone number
shows up on their screen to be sure I am who I am. They would tell me
step by step what to do and how to fix the problem. It could be a very
simple problem, but may take an hour or more for me to get thru
talking using the TTY for that. It is not very simple, not like an
ordinary person with great hearing and can talk on the phone and be
done in half an hour or less after having the problem fixed. It is a
major pain and a headache sometimes for me.

Oh and by the way, people who know me as hearing impaired almost never
call me using the BRS or RRS to talk me on the TTY. Know what they
used to tell me? "I hate talking to the operator" or some other excuse
they make. My son never calls me using the TTY. But he called me this
morning from his cell phone and I was able to catch what he was saying
to me. I just became a grandmother again this morning and that he
wanted me to come over to his house on Saturday to see the new bundle
of joy. I said fine I will. He has to watch what he is saying so I can
understand what he is saying to me on the phone. He never uses email
or Facebook me. There are few certain people who call me the ones I
know and understand their voices and understand me talking back to
them, that is my mom, my cousin in Peterborough and her mom in
Campbellford, my sister in law in Hanover, the receptionist at my
dentist's office, etc.

I have to learn using short letters on the TTY like "SK" or "GA" both
mean stop keying that you are done typing or go ahead if you want the
person to talk more. If the other person is done with me, they would
have to use SK or GA too. PLS means please, WLM means welcome, TY for
thank you, or THX for thanks, PBM for problem, ILY for I love you,
etc, etc. Reason why we use short letters is to save time tying the
long way in order to get thru talking and end the phone call.

I have to add there is two features that can be done with the BRS or
RRS - VCO and I forget the other (I think it is called Voice Relay but
I could be wrong) is called that has been out for years.

VCO means Voice Carryover. That means if you can talk and the person
on the other line understands what you are saying on the phone but you
cannot hear that person replying back to you, then the BRS or RRS
types it out for you to read. If you had trouble talking, but can hear
the person talking over the receiver, you type the message to the
operator and she will talk to the other person what I typed. In order
to use of the them, you have to let the operator know so she can place
the switch before making the call. TTY also have a printing paper in
it. TTY is like size of an office adding machine with printing paper
to do add, subtracting, etc. I can turn it on to print out what we
talked on the phone, in case you want to go back over to what was
being said or you missed out something important in that conversation
when you are done talking. I have never used both features.

There is a one minor problem is that sometimes letters get all
scrambled. I have to hit the space bar several times til the letters
become clear for you to understand what is being said. It doesn't
matter if it is with BRS or RRS. Both do the same thing to me over the
years.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add that is only those for Bell Canada customers
who have Bell Canada landline, they give you 50% discount for every
long distance call you make, either using TTY or a hearing person
talks, like my husband who used to make long distance calls to talk to
his siblings, I get a discount shown on the phone bill, regardless at
any time or any day, without exceptions. My husband called his brother
who lives in BC and still does and talked for over 2 hours with him.
When I got the phone bill, the call was under $7, not bad. This was
back so many years ago. Rogers does not have that that discount for
the hearing impaired, but since I am with Rogers phone, I get 500
minutes of long distance calls free every month. The minutes does not
carry over to the next month if I didn't use up my 500 minutes. I
hardly go over the 500 minutes every month anyways.

I do know that at the ODSP London office they have TTY number but that
is only used for Employment Supports. They do have another TTY number,
but wouldn't give it to me.

That is why I require email to do most of my business. I wish ODSP
allow me to email them. I use my email and Facebook for other people
to leave me messages of any kind. I reply back to them. I rather read
the hard copy of what the person is saying so I can understand and get
it straight in my head.

Lorene

[Ron Payne]

Benjer It was you petition effort that inspired me to take on this quest. I was also inspired by Denny's post about who he knows.

I don't suppose you still have that letter do you?

This is also about worker not telling the whole story so we can properly decide our next move.

I will explain more after we hear, hopefully from Angela and or Nancy and any others willing to exchange information on this issue.

Ron Payne
Welfare Legal

[wheelchairdemon]

This boggles my mind about being able to email a worker at the ODSP office.

I've never been able to do that. Many years ago, when I was on
employment supports, I could email the worker, Kate Dyne, but when she
left that was the end of the email option.

We were told the office switched to providing an internal Intranet
access only for those famous security reasons. I know the excuse is
bogus, but what do you do?

If security were a legitimate reason, then how come Human Rights, and
the Provincial MPP's and Premier's office encourage us to write them by
email only?

There are risks to using email but if it is good for one government
department and they use it because it makes things more convenient to
them, then it is good for the other departments that would make it more
convenient for us.

I'm not a fan of email for security reasons, but if that was the only
easy option available to me, I would go for it. When I bought this
computer about 5 years ago, I specifically asked for a dial up modem so
I could test web pages. I was taking a Web Production and Design
certificate course hoping to work as a web designer after I graduated,
but housing clinched that. You can't live in RGI housing and work out of
your home.

The dial up modem turned out to be a Godsend though. I use it to fax
ODSP and, last summer when I could no longer afford to pay for the
Internet, I used it to continue surfing for free on dial-up using C-dot
free. (Link: http://www.cdotfree.com/). The service doesn't throw a lot
of junk on your computer, but it does put up a lot of ads. I still use
it when I'm at the cottage, but when I'm home, I went back to the high
speed connection.

Louise

[wheelchairdemon]

Email gets caught in Spam filters. Faxes are considered legally sent if
you get one of those "success" receipts.

The catch is, if the office loses the fax, like they do all the time
here, then you can't really fight it. It is word against word and we
can't get the legal representation to counter it. Instead, to stay sane
we have to suck it up and accept the blame for the fact that they lost it.

I just went through that mess AGAIN a week ago. This despite sending the
fax and then phoning them immediately after it was sent to ask a) if
they got it and b) if they can read it. I then capture their answers on
a recorder so I can prove it later when my worker calls to give me some
excuse as to why I must send it to her again, and again, and again.

I just wish we could get the workers investigated AND, if necessary
retrained or moved on to a different department when they can't keep up.

Louise

[Bill Higgs]

They can make all the excuses they want, I have a very low opinion of ODSP
wokrers and even lower for our current government.

The truth is that correspoindance by email would put what they tell you in
writing. heaven forbid that you might be able to hold them to something a
worker told you.

If you dont belive me, at your next update review, tell your worker you want
to record the meeting or ask a worker to put something in writing and watch
them squirm. You will get the same hokey excuses of why they dont do that
either.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lorene" <sym...@yahoo.com>
To: "ODSP Fireside" <odspfi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:50 PM
Subject: [odspfireside: 35891 ] Re: Communicating with your OW/ODSP Worker
via Email

Count me in. I am hearing impaired. I was told by OW many years ago
that they can't use email due to privacy issues and that the computers
are not very secured. I imagine ODSP feel the same way too.

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5983 (20110324) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com

[Ron Payne]

Thanks for responding Lorene.

You bring up 3 exciting points to this issue.

a) The hearing impaired, which I'm sorry to say never crossed my mind.
I don't want to say much on this list until we hear from Angela or Nancy.
I can think of many reasons why OW and or ODSP worker must accommodate the hearing impaired. I will explain later.                  .

b)  TTY
This brings a brand new proposal to mind, and again, I am sorry but I will have to explain later.


c) probably only for those who are shut-ins.
This goes to the very nature of this exercise. (Why)

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:07 PM, Lorene <sym...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Ron, they have never made that suggestion to me. They know I am
hearing impaired and required TTY to use. Couple times, I have been
called to ODSP for review or whatever it is called to update my
records. Guess what, I show up for my appt to find there is ASL
interpreter there for me. 

 

Like you said it is probably only for those who shut-ins, but not

for me, as I am able to get out and walk on my own. I remembered some incident at the ODSP. I can't remember what it was about. The
caseworker said to me they have been trying to call me on the phone.

Lorene

[abrowne]

Ron,

 

When I worked in Employment Supports, communications by

email was not only welcome, but encouraged.  It was easier,

and facilitated a lot more work getting done.

 

I do accept emails from my clients, though in their retainers,

they do sign an understanding that email is not always secure

and safe, esp with potentially privileged communications.

 

That being said, I don't understand why this can't be made

accessible for those on ODSP that need to reach their workers.

Clients that work through e-mail get responded to quicker by

my office, as well there is a "paper trail" of sorts.

 

Please note that as ODSP undergoes its current "modernization"

process, and moving to a one-client/one-worker model, the

Ministry IS interested in hearing from people about how well

this is working, and there may be an opportunity to propose

something like this.

 

Angela

---

From: Ron Payne <welfarel...@gmail.com>
To: ODSP Fireside <odspfi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 5:33:53 AM
Subject: [odspfireside: 35880 ] Communicating with your OW/ODSP Worker via Email

[Ron Payne]

 Louise again more good points.
a) Employment Supports did it,

b) You are right the excuse is bogus.

Come on people give us your thoughts on this.Show that this issue is worthy of attention, our attention, the governments attention.

Ron Payne                                                                                   Welfare Legal

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:37 PM, wheelchairdemon <wheelch...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've never been able to do that. Many years ago, when I was on employment supports, I could email the worker, Kate Dyne, but when she left that was the end of the email option.

We were told the office switched to providing an internal Intranet access only for those famous security reasons. I know the excuse is bogus, but what do you do?

Louise

[Ron Payne]

Bingo
Bill you get the cigar.

And if your afraid, record it and say nothing.

Ron

[StarTears]

Ministry IS interested in hearing from people about how well this is working,

i just went through a 'how well is this working' crap with my office.  i put in a formal request for a change of worker because the worker i am assigned is on DISABILITY LEAVE.  i am constantly in flux or handing documents in regarding travel etc; i have a VERY active file.  i have had 7 different workers sign very important requests in the past 6 weeks back to me, an overpayment be issued [a mistake completely on their part] because the way they see things to be of 'best service to me' is to have someone come take over whatever is sitting on my workers desk for the day and work at it.  then someone else come do it the following day.

???thats GOOD service?? thats beneficial to me??? uhhhhhhhhh no.

the office supervisor has said that policy is NO changes. doesn't matter what cost to my health or sanity or WHATEVER, i am supposed to change how my health disability works to accomodate THEM for this completely stupid way of managing things.  i am supposed to make it work and suffer.

i'm still trying to figure out how this benefits me in any way shape or form.

star

[wheelchairdemon]

Star,

I'm in a similar position. I have a worker who makes mistakes all the
time and the onus is on me to do extra work to help her figure it out.

The cost to my health is huge as well and I'm discovering there is no
option to get another worker and there is no option to get the mistakes
investigated.

I scanned the goofed up files, hid a few names using Photoshop and put
the files online to expose the abuse. That's the only thing I can think
of doing to garner public input to hopefully speak out and help us stop it.

If you want to see them, go to:
http://wheelchairdemon.blogspot.com/2011/03/odsp-mistakes-are-endless.html

Maybe, if you have proof, you can do the same thing. If you're nervous
about sharing names and can trust me, contact me off list to get my
address and then mail the documents to me (or scan them and email them
to me). I will Photoshop out your name, and just share the story.

The more of these we can do the better.

Louise

[bastetschylde]

I just remembered two very important situations:

1. I was able to communicate via e-mail with my OW worker.

2. I was also able to communicate via e-mail with my Employment
Supports Specialist and I use e-mail with my Provider as well.

E-mail is easier for me not only due to my hearing impairment. I am
not a shut-in but I do have mental health issues that can have an
impact on my ability/desire to go outside and/or interact with people
for small periods ranging from days to weeks (the longest I have been
shut in as far as I recall is 2 months). Sometimes I require
accompaniment by a trusted person - usually if going to an unfamiliar
area. I may not be able to think and speak rationally during these
periods, especially if put on the spot (i.e., being on the phone with
my ODSP worker). With e-mail, I find it's easier to get to the point
and speak matter of factly, especially as I can revise what I'm saying
before I send anything.

I currently use an online fax system where I can scan documents to
ODSP. This is beneficial as it's preferable to appearing in person.
Documents do get lost from time to time, but in these cases, I resend.

I used to use a TTY but with my cochlear implant, I can hear better
and be able to use the phone more often. There were comments earlier
about privacy issues around using operators and that's why I would not
want to use a TTY, it takes away the "personal" even if operators are
sworn to confidentiality about content of conversations. Lorene is
right that it's time consuming even if you can use VCO.

It's just with very important calls like ODSP and businesses, I prefer
to use e-mail so I know I didn't miss out on anything important. It's
very easy to mistake certain letters and words, or miss out on dates
and so forth.

E-mail should make operations more efficient. There would be an
electronic trail and it would be less time consuming. E-mail is more
environmentally friendly.

-B.C.

P.S. I am a researcher in the social sciences, with a M.A. in
Psychology. I would be happy to offer any assistance in this vein.

[StarTears]

Maybe, if you have proof, you can do the same thing. If you're nervous about sharing names and can trust me, contact me off list to get my address and then mail the documents to me (or scan them and email them to me). I will Photoshop out your name, and just share the story.

the office manager/supervisor doesn't care about proof, its office policy no one gets a different worker.  its just a matter of they do NOT care what we are going through, they have a system that 'go live' is on a print out on their door when they enter the waiting room and now i am thinking that it isn't a long -i- its a short one in there because the workers when they leave the compound get to have a life and live; rather than a motivational 'go live' with their case files and clients in that facility.

no i am fed up with doing their jobs and getting the short end of the stick.  i'll go to the minister first before i do anything within the office again in regards to changes to my file that extreme.  afterall, its the government that says that i have to be on the system for the rest of my life.

star

[wheelchairdemon]

Star,

I couldn't care two hoots about the office staff. I know they don't care
and that's why I want to publicly expose them.

We should not be getting sick over this stuff. The workers should either
be doing their jobs, or be fired. The goal of exposing them on my Blog
is I have local people, taxpaying local people, who are game to write
letters to ask questions about government waste.

They've already written a few after seeing some of my BS, so I thought
they would keep on writing if I could show them more BS. It will take
many examples of BS for the letter writing to have a final impact, but
at least we'll be exposing it and, over time, it might lead to change.

If we do nothing, things won't change. That's guaranteed.

I am struck with how many differences appear to exist around the
province around email and people's ability to communicate with their
office worker. This shouldn't be. We live in a province and ODSP has
been fully uploaded back to their jurisdiction. The municipalities no
longer exercise control.

I'm glad people have shared notes to show the differences. It has
confirmed what I suspected all along. Others (the service providers)
keep asking me, why are you the only one (implying I am the one who's
the problem). Seeing the answers here has really helped me to know that
I'm not off beat in my observations at all.

They have to open their eyes, not us.

Good luck sorting it out.

Louise

[Ron Payne]

Bang on BC and remember mental health issues are a valid reason for "Duty to Accommodate"

Ron  Payne
Welfare Legal
Hamilton, Ontario

On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 4:37 PM, bastetschylde <milady...@gmail.com> wrote:

I just remembered two very important situations:

1. I was able to communicate via e-mail with my OW worker.

2. I was also able to communicate via e-mail with my Employment
Supports Specialist and I use e-mail with my Provider as well.

E-mail is easier for me not only due to my hearing impairment. I am
not a shut-in but I do have mental health issues that can have an
impact on my ability/desire to go outside and/or interact with people
for small periods ranging from days to weeks (the longest I have been shut in as far as I recall is 2 months).

I currently use an online fax system where I can scan documents to
ODSP. This is beneficial as it's preferable to appearing in person.
Documents do get lost from time to time, but in these cases, I resend.

[StarTears]

I couldn't care two hoots about the office staff. I know they don't care and that's why I want to publicly expose them.

We should not be getting sick over this stuff. The workers should either be doing their jobs, or be fired.  The goal of exposing them on my Blog is I have local people, taxpaying local people, who are game to write letters to ask questions about government waste.

If we do nothing, things won't change. That's guaranteed.

no louise you are absolutely not alone, its just in my situation they very purposefully left out everything in the redemption letter with the overpayment just stating that it is no longer there and has been deemed paid in full- aka it looks like they forgave it rather than doing their job.  all the stuff with the switching of worker has been verbal, the office supervisor refused to even SEE me and speak to me directly regarding this.  just sent the new receptionist out with a little sticky note with her 'verdict' on it.

its not that i am not willing to expose them for what crap they are doing by all means, i have quite a few advocates in my area that are very good friends, its that the general public does not care for one and two i believe i am going to be fighting a much larger battle on housing for all ontario folks shortly.  i need to build a little strength for that before i take on the ODSP system again....april is a very tough month for me and i am already mentally shutting down for it so i dunno how i am going to manage all this that is upcoming already.

i feel right now like i am babbling and have no path.

star 

[wheelchairdemon]

Hi Ron,

I'm about to challenge one of those on Tuesday; a human rights challenge
related to the emergency department refusing me medical treatment for a
physical condition because they decided that, because the case was
chronic (related to my disability), I could wait 4 months to see the
specialist. They also decided that, because I had once been treated for
a mental illness (8 years earlier), that I was mentally ill again and
they decided to call a psychiatrist, not a urologist.

I eventually left without treatment for either condition. The bladder
infection then had to fester, and cause me an incredible amount of pain
for another 4 weeks before it was treated.

Meanwhile I was working full time and couldn't take a day off work
because work insisted I had to have a doctors letter to prove it. I was
sweating like a pig, had blood in my urine, had back pain that was
beyond belief, had spent the previous 3 weeks trying to get the bladder
infection treated, and was getting nowhere.

My own doctor would not see me for 3 weeks, after I phoned him to make
an appointment, the after hours clinic was good - they started to treat
- but then the culture showed I needed to be switched to a different
antibiotic. They called me and left a message to this effect, and then
told me to contact my doctor for follow up. They couldn't find the
report, refused to call the after-hours clinic (because it would be
embarrassing if I was lying and there was no report) and then corrupted
another sample I left with them a week later. They left it in the fridge
too long. When the results came back as inconclusive, they said they
wouldn't treat.

I finally talked my doctor into faxing a prescription to the pharmacy
for something else (by taking a good guess about what the infection
would be sensitive to) and then went over to the pharmacy to collect it.
Guess what? The fax never made it. I have no idea if the pharmacy just
misplaced it or the doctors office failed to send it. All I know is I
had to enter week 4 with a raging infection, pain that was getting
worse, and an obligation to keep going to work or be fired if I couldn't
get the doctor's letter.

Desperate, I hopped on the train on the weekend and went to another city
and another emerge. No go. The room was packed with cases that were
more urgent than mine so I had to give up and catch the last train back
to Kingston so I could be back at work the next day.

With this kind of lead history to my appointment in emerge, and the
doctor taking time to listen to this whole story, how on earth could the
doctor decide I was mentally ill? Throughout the appointment I kept
asking for treatment or a doctor's letter so I could take time off work
and recover.

Anyway, that is the case - the stigmatization and labelling of a person
as a rationale to deny treatment in the emergency room. They supposedly
are not set up to treat long standing problems that are related to one
having a disability. That's why they would not treat the bladder infection.

I wonder how they rationalize treating a long standing alleged mental
illness instead?

Wish me luck.

Louise

[Ron Payne]

Excellent idea Star

Next time you say "'ll go to the minister first", post online, the ministers email address so others will have a quick link so they can do the same.
Hon. Madeleine Meilleur, Minister of Community & Social Services,
mmeill...@liberal.ola.org

They will soon get the hint..And tell them I sent you

Ron Payne
Welfare Legal
Hamilton, Ontario

[StarTears]

Excellent idea Star

Next time you say "'ll go to the minister first", post online, the ministers email address so others will have a quick link so they can do the same.
Hon. Madeleine Meilleur, Minister of Community & Social Services,
mmeill...@liberal.ola.org

They will soon get the hint..And tell them I sent you

Ron Payne
Welfare Legal
Hamilton, Ontario

oh ron they absolutely PANIC when you tell them that you have copies stamped by the office of EVERYTHING and that you will rather see them in SBT than deal any further with what bs they are putting  you through.  the office is terrified of being investigated i fully know that.  they will push whatever you want through by showing up with 10 people protesting outside.  magically necessary funds for say a new temper-pedic bed that i need [$1000] will be approved as a medical necessity shortly because i will show up at the office with a group of 10 people willing to stand outside and protest for equal medical rights.  -if i have to draw that line in the sand.

its happened several times in the past for a few people that were told no and they were far less organized than i am and the statement was made of 'well then tomorrow we will come back with a group to lobby outside the office until a decision is made right away as per the urgency of the matter'....nothing was done by the following day so my dear friends showed up with 20 advocates and protested outside.  decision was made in less than 20 minutes rather than 2 weeks.

i am just so sick of the whole thing.  as the sentiments go.  however, thank you for your name drop as well.  i got a few that i can drop but never do..one is the best city councillor we have not to mention one of the most longstanding.  

star

[wheelchairdemon]

Star,

I just confirmed it today through a lawyer, who went out of her way to
ask another lawyer to make sure, that YOU CAN RECORD THEM!

I have a hard drive loaded with recordings from severe cases like this;
and yes, I have experienced something almost identical to this. Maybe
it's time to upload the files and share. Hmm... I'm thinking.

You may not feel up to it at the moment and I totally get that. Take a
breather and recover. It's not worth it to get sick.

We'll hold the mantle. I'm about to write the Minister about my own
mess as well.

Take care.

Louise

[StarTears]

I just confirmed it today through a lawyer, who went out of her way to ask another lawyer to make sure, that YOU CAN RECORD THEM!

I have a hard drive loaded with recordings from severe cases like this; and yes, I have experienced something almost identical to this. Maybe it's time to upload the files and share.  Hmm... I'm thinking.

oh i knew that already [about the recording thing] and i have an iphone so i could very easily do that.  thats why they send out their lacky's so they are not on recordings now.  the tricky part is having the people identify themselves for a recording because they are NOT obligated to do that in person.  on the phone they are obligated to say who they are and where they are calling from.  tricky bit of floor there, deceptively flat.

april is just...when my daughter was stillborn in 2004.  its tough to muddle through still as can be expected.  i still have a lot of other things on my plate and they happen to be in this month and i am just emotionally all over the place so its hard to focus plus my diabetes being all over the place coupled with stress making it worse its just ugh.  then the election news and more and more...makes me want to isolate and do nothing rather than everything. i'm sure many can relate to that overwhelmed by not too much and all too much feeling.

suppose i should go eat something and drink a whole lot of water, i feel dehydrated.

star

[Ron Payne]

And another good point Loise.

The service providers.

Millions upon million of dollars are given to providers to help us each and every year. Some do good work and others, ... well that is a topic for another day. They have offices and paid staff. What have they done on this issue. They email workers all the time to help clients of theirs. Why haven't they picked up the ball on this issue.

What do you think of us emailing our workers. Come on now, I know the answer. Respond to this post an tell us what you think. I know many of you and I offer you this opportunity to speak up.

Ron Payne
Welfare Legal
Hamilton, Ontario. 

On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 7:50 PM, wheelchairdemon <wheelch...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

If we do nothing, things won't change. That's guaranteed.

I'm glad people have shared notes to show the differences. It has confirmed what I suspected all along.  Others (the service providers) keep asking me, why are you the only one (implying I am the one who's the problem). Seeing the answers here has really helped me to know that I'm not off beat in my observations at all.

Louise

[Ron Payne]

Certainly good luck Louise and you leave me wondering how much of this kind of thing Marsha went through before she passed.

I know the Ministry monitors this list and hope someone might care to comment on the original subject.

Communicating with your OW/ODSP Worker via Email

Ron Payne
Welfare Legal
Hamilton, Ontario

On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 2:12 AM, wheelchairdemon <wheelch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Ron,

[benjer weigl]

I requested that of the Windsor Odsp office, they can only accomadte me by snail mail(might be slow but at least its in writing) same excuse as others get, our computer system is not set up to handle email between workers and clients. and the privacy issue. if i find that letter i know its in my file ill post part of it here.

---

[wheelchairdemon]

Benjer,

Super idea to get and share the letter from the ODSP office in Windsor. 

I haven't got the rules in writing about email yet but I'll try to get them.

Generally they will never write a response, or initial or stamp my version of a receipt.  I've tried to get them to do this when I've had a meeting with them. During the meeting I will jot down notes about the conversation and then at the end of it, I ask them to read them over and if they're accurate, initial or stamp it.  No go. They'll read the notes and verbally say they're accurate, but they won't sign or initial it because they're either not allowed to sign things, or my notes are subjective.  That's exactly why I want them to sign. I want them to make sure I understood them correctly, and then I want them to sign the paper so I have the comfort of knowing I understood them correctly so I can then go out and get what they need and have the comfort of knowing I won't be wasting my time.  It costs me a lot of time and money on bus fare when I misunderstand their direction.

The same thing goes for putting a question in writing and asking them to reply in writing. They will answer the question but only by phone or by mailing me a form letter.  It's really funny when they send you a form letter that, not only doesn't answer the question, but also is dated for the day after you receive it in your mailbox at home.  It is obvious nobody is paying attention.

It is for this reason that I figured out another way to make sure I understood them correctly and cover my butt.  I now record the conversations. The recorder could be my MP3 player, cell phone, Audacity, a free sound editing program on my computer, or a hand held device.  If the message lands on my answering machine, I record it with my MP3 player to keep a record of it before I delete it. I later transcribe it into text.  If the reply comes by phone, I always answer by speaker phone (because the phone is too flat and I hate accidentally hanging up on someone), and I record it.

I don't like doing this because I feel so dirty and underhanded, but at times I get really depressed to the point of losing hope because I can never seem to do things right for ODSP.  If they make a mistake, then I am accountable and that infuriates me to no end. 

If can't get them to sign anything or give a fair and accurate reply in writing so I can reference later it make sure I am doing what is expected of me, then I am going to protect myself.

My goal is to protect my health, retain my dignity, and move forward ideally to, once again get off ODSP.  I also want to enjoy life, not get sick and lose hope because of a bureaucratic system that's gone so horribly wrong. The intent of ODSP, when the program was created, was to separate it from social services so people with disabilities can have their rights protected. Mike Harris, the man we love to hate, did that.  If you don't believe me, read this:

The Ontario Disability Support Program Act, 1997 provides a separate income and employment support program for eligible persons with disabilities. It removes persons with disabilities from the welfare system and provides them with assistance that recognizes their unique needs. (source: Preamble of the Ontarian's With Disabilities Act, 2001: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_01o32_e.htm)

The program had flaws when it was created and it definitely needed to be tweaked and fixed up, but unfortunately it never happened. I was impressed when ODSP replaced FBA (Family Benefits Allowance) because then I could get coverage to buy medical supplies, pay for medical transportation, get full coverage to buy a wheelchair, and there was no penalty for the family or friends to give you money within, what is now, the $6,000 per year asset amount. Family, friends, or a trust fund, can now allow you to receive unlimited amounts to cover the cost of disability related expenses as long as it can be clearly illustrated that it is needed. This means, if I needed to rent a wheelchair, I could be given the money to pay for it and not be penalized by ODSP. On FBA, I had to pay $75/mth to rent one, and then save enough money to pay the 25% over and above the 75% amount that the Assistive Devices Program would pay to buy a wheelchair.  FBA was clawing back the money my mom was paying for the wheelchair so she had to go underground to make sure I could survive. I had just been kicked out of supportive housing, was paying full rent, had no support in my home, was new to a wheelchair, and FBA was determined to kill me.

I just share this brief educational so you know what Disability used to be like and what the intent was when ODSP was created.

We, as people with disabilities, have a right to be free of bullying, harassment, and emotional abuse, so until something is corrected in the ODSP offices, then we must do what we can to protect ourselves.

For me, that means recording the conversation. I should add that the recordings can work really well in their favour as well. There have been times when I have had too much on my plate, so I am more forgetful; my concentration is down.  If I run into an incident where I discover I might have remembered things wrong, I play back the recording. In fact, I do this all the time BEFORE I point fingers at the ODSP office and say they are the ones in the wrong. 

If I discover I inadvertently missed something because, after all, I'm a human, then I will say with conviction, oops, I was wrong and then apologize. I have no problem owning every one of my own mistakes. I do, however, have a huge problem with others trying to hold me responsible for the mistakes of others. Those are out of my control and I can't force ODSP, or anyone else for that matter, to do things right the first time.

It absolutely made my day when the lawyer confirmed it was NOT illegal to record the conversations that I am taking part in.

Now it's time to creatively, and fairly, expose more of the problem to the right people. I already know my MPP's office won't listen, so I'll find somewhere else to play them.

Louise

[Ron Payne]

Benjer

Did you ask them recently or are you referring to a while ago?

Has anyone asked then to accommodate recently?

Still waiting for comments from the service providers on this list.

What do you think of workers duty to accommodate clients?

Malcolm53 what are your thoughts on this issue?

jbkeh What do you think of this issue and what are in related directives?

On Monday some on this list should ask workers to accommodate them and get email address and let us know what happens.

You might explain why you have the need and then let us know.

Ron Payne
Welfare Legal
Hamilton, Ontario

Have any of you contacted any ODSP worker via Email?

[benjer weigl]

Hey Ron Yep Please see my attachments. The one attachment  I like is the Regional Director just put it in writing on the one attachment which I highlighted that you can ask for an internal review of ANY DECISION

so if you want a a new case worker and they say no I would ask for an internal review,

I also had CERA (centre for equality rights and accomdation) for a presentation to my fellow tenants.

He said that if they cant accomadate one way, they have to accomdate with the next best option as was my understanding. So Odsp could no accomadate by email. so they had to chose the next option regular mail, which is fine with me as everything is put in writing.

---

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 00:34:49 +0000
Subject: Re: [odspfireside: 35985 ] Communicating with your OW/ODSP Worker via Email
From: welfarel...@gmail.com
To: odspfi...@googlegroups.com

Benjer

roups.com

[benjer weigl]

In total agreement. I try and put my experinece in breif. 

Told them of exempt assest, 

They tell me even though I sent in directives as proff that they decide if is exempt assest, 

they ask for paper to prove existence of exempt assest,

I give them proff of exempt asseest,

 Now they ask for more papers to prove exempt assest(existence of)

Now paper which they asked for as proff whic was given them is not good enought

Now they ask for another paper and on same letter they ask for this other paper caseworker quotes section that would put my file oh hold(casue Im single_) so case worker without even giving me time or clairying to my level of understanding what was needed. alread formed bias and premidated(in my opinion to cut me)

I get paper that eventually they clairfy(after they put me on hold, and yelling at the top my lungs in writing to everyone I could)

Finally paper is good enought

And they say what i told them in the first place

Your assesst is an exempt assest thierfore it wont affect your eligibilty(um it did when you put me on hold)

So bascially What I told at the very beginnning with proff , they agreed with( after they put through of month of hell for no good reason over bacially a mute point of an exempt assest)

My disaility also  prevents me from working, so I am also on odsp permentely until the senior age.

Theres absolutely no reason to put me threw what they did. So now this is the 3rd mistake in a row my new case worker has made( The letter said where most of  us got new case workers it was to improve customer service, yeah right , they made it even worse, )

They also ignore requests when they quote a section and I write them, back asking them to put down the exact pharse verbatim. They never do

---

[Ron Payne]

Ha Ha Ha You made my day.

Benjer Do you see what he didn't say!

He didn't say that ministry workers don't have email address because they do.

He didn't say that ministry workers computers are not hooked up to the internet because they are.

Did you see what CERA didn't say!

They didn't say what has to happen first, before the can legally go with option number 2 that they give.

Ask them and report back to this thread.

Regarding  Peter Steckenreiter's statementicy about  privacy, ( Give me 10 minutes and I'll respond as I am sick and need to re group)

Ron Payne
Welfare Legal
Hamilton, Ontario

On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 2:16 PM, benjer weigl <ben....@sympatico.ca> wrote:

Hey Ron Yep Please see my attachments. The one attachment  I like is the Regional Director just put it in writing on the one attachment which I highlighted that you can ask for an internal review of ANY DECISION

I also had CERA (centre for equality rights and accomdation)

He said that if they cant accomadate one way, they have to accomdate with the next best option as was my understanding. So Odsp could no accomadate by email. so they had to chose the next option regular mail, which is fine with me as everything is put in writing.

---

[Ron Payne]

Dear Minister Madeleine Meilleu

I send you this email through an online group I am a member of. It's name is ODSP Fireside.
https://groups.google.com/group/odspfireside/topics?hl=en

It is a group of 1200+ members. Please keep in mind that these members all have10 friends and also those friend have 10 more friends etc. etc.. Minister you get my point don't you.

On March  22 2011 I sent you an email regarding "Duty to Accommodate' and my workers name and email address.

Minister I relinquish my right to privacy and would you kindly respond to that email through this list, as I have not received a response from you as of this date.

Ron Payne

[Ron Payne]

I just sent a copy of this thread out to some people I know.

Hopefully and maybe they might find the time and get back.

Peter Archibald McMaster University

Dr. Margret Little Queens University

Lorne Sossin  Osgoode Hall Law School

Ernie Lightman  University of Toronto

Andrew Mitchell University of Toronto

Janet Mosher Osgoode Hall Law School

Ron Payne

Welfare Legal

Hamilton, Ontario

[Ron Payne]

Duty to Accommodate

Take a look at this from the Ministries web site.

http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/en/mcss/publications/accessibilityplan09/statuscsraccplan09.aspx

What do you think?

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Ron Payne <welfarel...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is an open letter to the ODSP Action Coalition members on this list.

[Ron Payne]

You did not accommodate my disability Minister and I hold you and yours accountable. You think this is a game and your wrong.

I am calling 911 as I am sick.

Ron Payne

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ron Payne <welfarel...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:33 AM
Subject: Communicating with your OW/ODSP Worker via Email
To: ODSP Fireside <odspfi...@googlegroups.com>


This is an open letter to the ODSP Action Coalition members on this list.

I am presently working on a proposal to the Ontario government regarding communicating with ones OW/ODSP worker via Email.

If my memory serves me correctly the coalition has done presentations to the government before on different issues.

I do recall that Angela has inquired before re this issue to this list with no responses.

I am wondering if the collition might be willing to take a look at my proposal, research and evidence on this issues with the idea of quarterbacking this kind of thing.

I am looking for info on what might be needed and whom to send it to and such.

Does anyone on this list have any thoughts or info regarding this?

Please respond to this list or contact me offline at the email address below

Ron Payne                                                                                                                  Welfare Legal                                                                                                            Hamilton, Ontario

Email me at welfarel...@hotmail.com
welfarelegal2004(at)hotmail(dot)com

[benjer weigl]

I think its a load of hoey from my own personal experience,one day to train for customer service or whatever , unless i read that part wrong. and another part where there actualy doing a pilot project where email is being done
clarify please if I misread anything.

go to this link 

http://www.sbt.gov.on.ca/AssetFactory.aspx?did=148

and look at 

Table 10                                                        

Tribunal Decisions Where Appellant Represented 

2009 - 2010

65 percent of appeals were granted while only 29 percent were denied.

Thats a lot of errors on the case workers part. 65 percent, wondering what 2010 to 2011 will say

when ever its done ,maybe the auditor general should have looked at this as well

---

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:34:11 +0100
Subject: [odspfireside: 36061 ] Re: Communicating with your OW/ODSP Worker via Email
From: welfarel...@gmail.com
To: odspfi...@googlegroups.com

[bastetschylde]

I told my Service Provider about the e-mail prohibition problem and
she agrees with me that it is an issue. On top of that, she has not
found ODSP to be receptive to the needs of people with disabilities
herself, as even when she does her workshops on broadening
accessibility of various programs designed by ODSP (the name escapes
me - it's related to employment and the acronyms for various
disabilities with "positive traits" ... like Dependable Eloquent
Professional Reliable Empathic Sensitive Self-starter Independent
Organized Nice ... ), ODSP flat out refuses to take her up on her
suggestions.

So ODSP refuses to take reasonable and necessary accommodation
suggestions from both clients AND service providers? Obviously, there
is a limited understanding of what it means to have a disability or
multiple exceptionalities the higher the rank in ODSP.

This really stinks of "Old Boys Club"...

I said I want to be a policy analyst for ODSP and make changes from
within to improve all our lives. (And ODSP doesn't have a "if you're a
client, you can't work with us" rule! :D...).

-B.C.

[Ron Payne]

On April 1st received a response regarding the email I sent to the Minister of CSS and Duty to Accommodate.

It was from ODSP in Hamilton.They told me to phone them.

It seems everyone in the Hamilton area, that I know got a similar one as well. Read it very carefuly and respond back.

Anyone on this list, from Hamilton get one as well?

Guess this is the Liberals response to Duty to Accommodate.

Chris I sent this regarding one of your posts but it was rejected

You have describe me well in your few posts.

I add to your list slurred speech, blurred  vision, not being able to eat and blood pressure taken on the way to the hospital at 245 over 111 which has been documented when I walk 50 yards

Another group that will pick up the slack I started in 2009.

Join it.and talk away

http://groups.google.com/group/bad-faith-in-owodsp?hl=en

Hello Princes still waiting for you to respond offline

Ron Payne
Welfare legal
Hamilton, Ontario

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Ron Payne <welfarel...@gmail.com> wrote: