Re: Feedback on Gathering Ideas Process - INVITE MORE PEOPLE
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Gregory Murphy
Oct 21, 2011, 8:55:33 AM10/21/11
to occupy...@googlegroups.com, occupy-boston-f...@googlegroups.com, occupybos...@googlegroups.com
Per this comment:
"For instance if you read two Message Statements, and didn't know which
was written by an individual and which was written by a group, and agreed
that the one written by an individual was better: would you take that
opinion back when you realized that you'd chosen the less politically
correct, but better written document?"
This reasoning seems to be about language and not inclusivity. We are not conducting a writing contest.
And why the emphasis on deadlines and quick writing exercises?
Where's the emphasis on getting more voices to participate, not just those of the passionate people who are in camp?
I strongly oppose the writing contest approach - the let's see who's the best wordsmith among us approach. I find it very offensive and so, so exclusive.
I advocate for a more thoughtful inclusive approach.
Why do not we all take a deep breath, slow down and focus more of our creative energy on how to get more participation?
IDEA
Propose to the GA funds for taking out a full page ad in the B Globe and the Herald and several key community papers, inviting the people of Boston to share their thoughts and desires and demands and message with OccupyBoston. "We Are the 99% and We Need to Hear Your Voice." Maybe the ad could be designed to include writing space, i.e., ruled lines for people to write their thoughts directly on the newsprint, cut it out and mail it to OB. Of course the ad would also provide a link for people who want to submit their thoughts and desires and demands and messages, online. And the ad could publish several dates of public meetings - maybe held indoors at the Boston Public Library, or the Reggie Lewis Center, or the mosque near Ruggles, (or held at several locations) which will be warmer and hold more people. The meeting dates would present a variety of days and times to provide for the greatest participation.
(At that meeting, even given a rectangular facing the stage space layout, we could use a talking stick (i.e., microphone) methodology. Or simply, have each row of people, row by row, one by one, come on stage and present a sentence or two of what they want to say. And every person's voice is audio recorded and then transcribed.)
I like this idea - kinda just bubbled up as I was writing!
Greg Murphy
"For instance if you read two Message Statements, and didn't know which
was written by an individual and which was written by a group, and agreed
that the one written by an individual was better: would you take that
opinion back when you realized that you'd chosen the less politically
correct, but better written document?"
This reasoning seems to be about language and not inclusivity. We are not conducting a writing contest.
And why the emphasis on deadlines and quick writing exercises?
Where's the emphasis on getting more voices to participate, not just those of the passionate people who are in camp?
I strongly oppose the writing contest approach - the let's see who's the best wordsmith among us approach. I find it very offensive and so, so exclusive.
I advocate for a more thoughtful inclusive approach.
Why do not we all take a deep breath, slow down and focus more of our creative energy on how to get more participation?
IDEA
Propose to the GA funds for taking out a full page ad in the B Globe and the Herald and several key community papers, inviting the people of Boston to share their thoughts and desires and demands and message with OccupyBoston. "We Are the 99% and We Need to Hear Your Voice." Maybe the ad could be designed to include writing space, i.e., ruled lines for people to write their thoughts directly on the newsprint, cut it out and mail it to OB. Of course the ad would also provide a link for people who want to submit their thoughts and desires and demands and messages, online. And the ad could publish several dates of public meetings - maybe held indoors at the Boston Public Library, or the Reggie Lewis Center, or the mosque near Ruggles, (or held at several locations) which will be warmer and hold more people. The meeting dates would present a variety of days and times to provide for the greatest participation.
(At that meeting, even given a rectangular facing the stage space layout, we could use a talking stick (i.e., microphone) methodology. Or simply, have each row of people, row by row, one by one, come on stage and present a sentence or two of what they want to say. And every person's voice is audio recorded and then transcribed.)
I like this idea - kinda just bubbled up as I was writing!
Greg Murphy
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 6:48 AM, Aria Littlhous <ariali...@gmail.com> wrote:
Noah put so much work into his process, I'm hesitant to suggest
something so different. I have, below, but I won't push it unless
there's a lot of support..mine is so much easier...could we do both?
Right now, I think I would be more in favor of circulating a
fill-in-the -blank form* with word limits and a
deadline on when it has to be in; widely advertized and sent doubly
to
anyone who already submitted. Maybe an open house with lap tops and
assistants for people not comfortable with computers. Kind of
starting
the process over with a big "Ready, Set, Go!" and then "Stop, Time's
Up." And of course, as usual, anyone who doesn't want to do it that
way, can opt out/we can present their ideas as "Other".
*Background, Mission Statement, Values, Goals,
Objectives, Legislation, Methods, Other
This is also a great way to integrate Individual Message Statements
and present them to the community, kind of like an essay contest. The
Ideas Message Statement could be one of many.
I suggest this because I have doubts about writing by committee and I
don't believe that just because something was written by one person it
can't or shouldn't represent accurately the ideas of a large group of
people. It's great to cull everyone's ideas, but when it comes to
writing them down, there's a reason they asked Thomas Jefferson to
wield the pen.
For instance if you read two Message Statements, and didn't know which
was
written by an individual and which was written by a group, and agreed
that the one written by an individual was better: would you take that
opinion back when you realized that you'd chosen the less politically
correct, but better written document?
And so, I'd propose that when the consensus process begins that
during
at least the first round, the Message Statements be presented "blind"
with no authors names attached!!!! This will make authors feel that
they have a fair shot at being heard and encourage people to really
think about what's being said, no who's saying it or why.
Maybe Ideas could present either two or three documents with roughly
the
same information...one group written, one individually written, both
short, and then the back up data, etc, in a separate document???
justin
Oct 21, 2011, 9:11:11 AM10/21/11
to occupy_ideas
excellent idea. We need to get as many involved as we can.
Having meetings and discussions in other places will serve us well in
attracting more people who are not already involved in the movement.
I agree also that a writing contest is exclusive and not what we
are trying to accomplish here. Besides if someone thought they would
win the writing contest they would not be participating in this group.
They would simply draft a statement and propose it to the G.A.
However, i do think we want wordsmiths input..., well that's obvious,
we want anyone's input.
Having meetings and discussions in other places will serve us well in
attracting more people who are not already involved in the movement.
I agree also that a writing contest is exclusive and not what we
are trying to accomplish here. Besides if someone thought they would
win the writing contest they would not be participating in this group.
They would simply draft a statement and propose it to the G.A.
However, i do think we want wordsmiths input..., well that's obvious,
we want anyone's input.
On Oct 21, 8:55 am, Gregory Murphy <gsjmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Per this comment:
>
> "For instance if you read two Message Statements, and didn't know which
> was written by an individual and which was written by a group, and agreed
> that the one written by an individual was better: would you take that
> opinion back when you realized that you'd chosen the less politically
> correct, but better written document?"
>
> This reasoning seems to be about language and not inclusivity. We are not
> conducting a writing contest.
>
> And why the emphasis on deadlines and quick writing exercises?
>
> Where's the emphasis on getting more voices to participate, not just those
> of the passionate people who are in camp?
>
> I strongly oppose the writing contest approach - the let's see who's the
> best wordsmith among us approach. I find it very offensive and so, so
> exclusive.
>
> I advocate for a more thoughtful inclusive approach.
> *
> Per this comment:
>
> "For instance if you read two Message Statements, and didn't know which
> was written by an individual and which was written by a group, and agreed
> that the one written by an individual was better: would you take that
> opinion back when you realized that you'd chosen the less politically
> correct, but better written document?"
>
> This reasoning seems to be about language and not inclusivity. We are not
> conducting a writing contest.
>
> And why the emphasis on deadlines and quick writing exercises?
>
> Where's the emphasis on getting more voices to participate, not just those
> of the passionate people who are in camp?
>
> I strongly oppose the writing contest approach - the let's see who's the
> best wordsmith among us approach. I find it very offensive and so, so
> exclusive.
>
> I advocate for a more thoughtful inclusive approach.
> Why do not we all take a deep breath, slow down and focus more of our
> creative energy on how to get more participation?*
>
> IDEA
> Propose to the GA funds for taking out a full page ad in the B Globe and the
> Herald and several key community papers, inviting the people of Boston to
> share their thoughts and desires and demands and message with OccupyBoston.
> "We Are the 99% and We Need to Hear Your Voice." Maybe the ad could be
> designed to include writing space, i.e., ruled lines for people to write
> their thoughts directly on the newsprint, cut it out and mail it to OB. Of
> course the ad would also provide a link for people who want to submit their
> thoughts and desires and demands and messages, online. And the ad could
> publish several dates of public meetings - maybe held indoors at the Boston
> Public Library, or the Reggie Lewis Center, or the mosque near Ruggles, (or
> held at several locations) which will be warmer and hold more people. The
> meeting dates would present a variety of days and times to provide for the
> greatest participation.
>
> (At that meeting, even given a rectangular facing the stage space layout, we
> could use a talking stick (i.e., microphone) methodology. Or simply, have
> each row of people, row by row, one by one, come on stage and present a
> sentence or two of what they want to say. And every person's voice is audio
> recorded and then transcribed.)
>
> I like this idea - kinda just bubbled up as I was writing!
>
> Greg Murphy
>
> IDEA
> Propose to the GA funds for taking out a full page ad in the B Globe and the
> Herald and several key community papers, inviting the people of Boston to
> share their thoughts and desires and demands and message with OccupyBoston.
> "We Are the 99% and We Need to Hear Your Voice." Maybe the ad could be
> designed to include writing space, i.e., ruled lines for people to write
> their thoughts directly on the newsprint, cut it out and mail it to OB. Of
> course the ad would also provide a link for people who want to submit their
> thoughts and desires and demands and messages, online. And the ad could
> publish several dates of public meetings - maybe held indoors at the Boston
> Public Library, or the Reggie Lewis Center, or the mosque near Ruggles, (or
> held at several locations) which will be warmer and hold more people. The
> meeting dates would present a variety of days and times to provide for the
> greatest participation.
>
> (At that meeting, even given a rectangular facing the stage space layout, we
> could use a talking stick (i.e., microphone) methodology. Or simply, have
> each row of people, row by row, one by one, come on stage and present a
> sentence or two of what they want to say. And every person's voice is audio
> recorded and then transcribed.)
>
> I like this idea - kinda just bubbled up as I was writing!
>
> Greg Murphy
>
Terra Friedrichs
Oct 21, 2011, 10:06:26 AM10/21/11
to occupy...@googlegroups.com
I feel like we can do this for free. But if we're rolling in funds, then
of course, advertise.
of course, advertise.
But I feel like we should be focusing on what IS the message in this
list, and getting it
approved by GA...
IMHO.
T
--
Terra
*~*~*~*
Terra Friedrichs
978 808 7173 (cell)
978 266 2775 (desk)
978 266 2778 (home/messages)
ndmc
Oct 21, 2011, 11:19:15 AM10/21/11
to occupy_ideas
It seems like this idea represents a next step and that having this
document as an official statement of purpose included in this ad might
make it more effective. To reiterate, I believe this document, if
written effectively, will be a powerful outreach tool. It will give
people an idea of what are the broad concerns we share, what are our
shared values, and what is our process for addressing them. It should
be just specific enough to bring people into the discussion.
document as an official statement of purpose included in this ad might
make it more effective. To reiterate, I believe this document, if
written effectively, will be a powerful outreach tool. It will give
people an idea of what are the broad concerns we share, what are our
shared values, and what is our process for addressing them. It should
be just specific enough to bring people into the discussion.
Greg
Oct 21, 2011, 3:28:10 PM10/21/11
to occupy...@googlegroups.com, occupy...@googlegroups.com
Yes that was my thought - that said the Ad does need language, an invite . . .
G. S. Murphy
G. S. Murphy
ndmc
Oct 21, 2011, 3:37:17 PM10/21/11
to occupy_ideas
It seems like your perspective is that ANY statement, even one that is
not claiming to come from the entire 99% and is specifically written
to broaden participation in our movement, will alienate potential
supporters. Am I correct?
At what point do you have enough numbers?
What do you say to the people who have been here since day one and are
becoming increasingly frustrated that their voices aren't even being
acknowledged?
We are being made out by the media to be a confused and unorganized
bunch with nothing in common and nothing to show for our weeks of
encampment. While personally don't give a shit what the media says,
many people - many potential supporters and participants - interact
with us through the media. Why can't we begin to take control of our
own identity by making a bold statement of only what we know. What
brought the individuals who are currently encamped out here? what
values are essential to our movement? how do our values reflect in our
methods? These things are our strengths. this is what I want people to
know about us.
As i saidhave said, I think we should reach out the the diversity of
voices that are already involved - the people at camp who haven't
contributed yet, the people at OTH this evening, the virtual occupy
boston movement. We need to reflect the full diversity of our
movement. But we can't sit around while people become frustrated and
leave, while the medial poisons our public image, while the country
and world lose interest.
We should speak and speak boldly, but only of what we know.
On Oct 21, 3:15 pm, Allison Nevitt <asnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps Greg can clarify, but I thought his suggestion was meant as a way to
> garner a broader range of perspectives in the crafting of the message.
>
> - Allison
> <http://BostonLyme.blogspot.com>
>
> <http://www.circlesknitting.com/>
> Una at DailyKos
> <http://www.dailykos.com/user/UnaSpenser><http://bostonlyme.blogspot.com/>
>
> <http://kossacksnetworking.ning.com>
not claiming to come from the entire 99% and is specifically written
to broaden participation in our movement, will alienate potential
supporters. Am I correct?
At what point do you have enough numbers?
What do you say to the people who have been here since day one and are
becoming increasingly frustrated that their voices aren't even being
acknowledged?
We are being made out by the media to be a confused and unorganized
bunch with nothing in common and nothing to show for our weeks of
encampment. While personally don't give a shit what the media says,
many people - many potential supporters and participants - interact
with us through the media. Why can't we begin to take control of our
own identity by making a bold statement of only what we know. What
brought the individuals who are currently encamped out here? what
values are essential to our movement? how do our values reflect in our
methods? These things are our strengths. this is what I want people to
know about us.
As i saidhave said, I think we should reach out the the diversity of
voices that are already involved - the people at camp who haven't
contributed yet, the people at OTH this evening, the virtual occupy
boston movement. We need to reflect the full diversity of our
movement. But we can't sit around while people become frustrated and
leave, while the medial poisons our public image, while the country
and world lose interest.
We should speak and speak boldly, but only of what we know.
On Oct 21, 3:15 pm, Allison Nevitt <asnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps Greg can clarify, but I thought his suggestion was meant as a way to
> garner a broader range of perspectives in the crafting of the message.
>
> - Allison
>
> <http://www.circlesknitting.com/>
> Una at DailyKos
> <http://www.dailykos.com/user/UnaSpenser><http://bostonlyme.blogspot.com/>
>
> <http://kossacksnetworking.ning.com>
Terra Friedrichs
Oct 21, 2011, 3:50:38 PM10/21/11
to occupy...@googlegroups.com
I participated in a town-wide consensus building project last year. And
what we did
was make a list of the communities, get a commitment from someone in each
community to be "the rep", then we checked off that each step had been
taken.
The outreach included publishing in that community's printed and online
media,
in-person meetings, and some phone interviews with key reps, like teachers,
church leaders, etc.
what we did
was make a list of the communities, get a commitment from someone in each
community to be "the rep", then we checked off that each step had been
taken.
The outreach included publishing in that community's printed and online
media,
in-person meetings, and some phone interviews with key reps, like teachers,
church leaders, etc.
After we had the list, we set a deadline, and everyone worked to it.
Then we had an open vote for the product...it was a visioning statement,
actually.
Who was the one that brought up inclusion as an issue? Maybe they
should put
together a list of the communities? and we can add to it. I'll make a
page on
the wiki, if you want...
T
Allison Nevitt
Oct 21, 2011, 3:56:22 PM10/21/11
to occupy...@googlegroups.com
First, I don't care what the corporate media says.
Second, I think a statement that is focused on the idea of building the solidarity of the 99% so that we can work together to demand real democracy would be awesome. Just stay away from naming specific issues or framing any solutions other than the need to see our common need to work together.
Second, I think a statement that is focused on the idea of building the solidarity of the 99% so that we can work together to demand real democracy would be awesome. Just stay away from naming specific issues or framing any solutions other than the need to see our common need to work together.
circles knitting
UnaMuses (still under construction, this is a consolidation of my writings. Still migrating work over. Thank you for your patience.)
UnaMuses (still under construction, this is a consolidation of my writings. Still migrating work over. Thank you for your patience.)
Roslinhood - for residents of micro-neighborhoods in Roslindale
Jubilee Massachusetts- breaking the chains of debt
Jubilee Massachusetts- breaking the chains of debt
Terra Friedrichs
Oct 21, 2011, 4:01:15 PM10/21/11
to occupy...@googlegroups.com
+1
ndmc
Oct 21, 2011, 4:12:18 PM10/21/11
to occupy_ideas
I think Terra's idea is great. We need to put together a list of the
communities and specifically reach out to each.
Allison, I believe I do understand your desire to remain position-
less. I think our primary mission as a movement should be outreach at
this point. but what about the other side of the coin. There is a real
risk that if we don't figure out what unites us, we never will and we
will begin to disassemble before we have a chance to grow. The 99%
slogan can only take us so far! Is it not possible to reaffirm our
identity, the things we all care about, without scaring people off or
alienating certain groups?
This is what we need to figure out.
Perhaps it won't be possible until we can look at the data and we
start to put words to the page.
On Oct 21, 3:56 pm, Allison Nevitt <asnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First, I don't care what the corporate media says.
>
> Second, I think a statement that is focused on the idea of building the
> solidarity of the 99% so that we can work together to demand real democracy
> would be awesome. Just stay away from naming specific issues or framing any
> solutions other than the need to see our common need to work together.
>
> <http://BostonLyme.blogspot.com>
> circles knitting <http://www.circlesknitting.com/>
> UnaMuses <http://www.unaspenser.com/> (still under construction, this is a
> Roslindale
> Jubilee Massachusetts <http://jubileema.org/>- breaking the chains of
> debt<http://www.dailykos.com/user/UnaSpenser>
> ...
>
> read more »
communities and specifically reach out to each.
Allison, I believe I do understand your desire to remain position-
less. I think our primary mission as a movement should be outreach at
this point. but what about the other side of the coin. There is a real
risk that if we don't figure out what unites us, we never will and we
will begin to disassemble before we have a chance to grow. The 99%
slogan can only take us so far! Is it not possible to reaffirm our
identity, the things we all care about, without scaring people off or
alienating certain groups?
This is what we need to figure out.
Perhaps it won't be possible until we can look at the data and we
start to put words to the page.
On Oct 21, 3:56 pm, Allison Nevitt <asnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First, I don't care what the corporate media says.
>
> Second, I think a statement that is focused on the idea of building the
> solidarity of the 99% so that we can work together to demand real democracy
> would be awesome. Just stay away from naming specific issues or framing any
> solutions other than the need to see our common need to work together.
>
> circles knitting <http://www.circlesknitting.com/>
> UnaMuses <http://www.unaspenser.com/> (still under construction, this is a
> consolidation of my writings. Still migrating work over. Thank you for your
> patience.)
> Roslinhood <http://roslinhood.org> - for residents of micro-neighborhoods in
> patience.)
> Roslindale
> Jubilee Massachusetts <http://jubileema.org/>- breaking the chains of
> debt<http://www.dailykos.com/user/UnaSpenser>
>
> read more »
Eli Gottlieb
Oct 21, 2011, 4:12:51 PM10/21/11
to occupy_ideas
Oh, we have things to show for our encampment. Eric Cantor said there
was too much income inequality. He's a bloody Republican and the most
capitalist of capitalists in Congress, the leader of the Tea Party
Caucus... and we've got him dancing to OUR tune!
was too much income inequality. He's a bloody Republican and the most
capitalist of capitalists in Congress, the leader of the Tea Party
Caucus... and we've got him dancing to OUR tune!
Terra Friedrichs
Oct 21, 2011, 4:15:07 PM10/21/11
to occupy...@googlegroups.com
I'll start the list:
International Communities (do we want to name them to make sure they are
all addressed)
People w/disabilities (how specific?)
Urban/Rural/Suburban (ha...we're covered there, I suspect)
Less Educated/Educated (ditto)
Ages
Families/Singles
Homes/Homeless
how's that? add to it and send it back...
t
>> read more �
Terra Friedrichs
Oct 21, 2011, 4:15:55 PM10/21/11
to occupy...@googlegroups.com
I'm telling you! I've been doing this for over 30 years. And the past
couple months, has
been a MAJOR turning point in the receptivity of some hard line Repubs
that I stalk around
asking, "ok, how about if I word it like this".
couple months, has
been a MAJOR turning point in the receptivity of some hard line Repubs
that I stalk around
asking, "ok, how about if I word it like this".
T
Allison Nevitt
Oct 21, 2011, 4:37:26 PM10/21/11
to occupy...@googlegroups.com
Perhaps, if we're careful about wording it in "this is what we see as our common ground and we want to know what you see", it might work. If we can zone in on what created the 99/1 split in very broad terms such as: we no longer experience democracy, what we have is feudalism. (though not those words because they won't resonate.)
I just read a piece from a published author, long-time activist and early organizer of Occupy Wall St. It's very interesting as he tries to peg what is different about this movement which has made it successful. All revolutions, historically, are charged by educated youth who can't get sustainable work. This one is no exception. From Iran, to Egypt and Libya and Spain and Greece, there is this common factor. Still, most don't gain any mainstream momentum. What fuels the momentum here may be the core issue which binds the 99%. Here is what he came up with:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/20/1028539/-On-Playing-by-the-Rules:-The-Strange-Success-of-OccupyWallStreet
So, that's what he sees. But, again, he's a white male of a certain prominence. Is that what will feel like a common cause to other communities? It's very hard to know. So, I think we need to keep it as broad as possible. It needs a feeling of "we know that we're in this together, so let's come together".
Just my humble opinion. One of many.
- Allison
I just read a piece from a published author, long-time activist and early organizer of Occupy Wall St. It's very interesting as he tries to peg what is different about this movement which has made it successful. All revolutions, historically, are charged by educated youth who can't get sustainable work. This one is no exception. From Iran, to Egypt and Libya and Spain and Greece, there is this common factor. Still, most don't gain any mainstream momentum. What fuels the momentum here may be the core issue which binds the 99%. Here is what he came up with:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/20/1028539/-On-Playing-by-the-Rules:-The-Strange-Success-of-OccupyWallStreet
"For all the endless statistical data available on every aspect of our economic system, I have been unable to find any economist who can tell me how much of an average American’s annual income, let alone life income, ends up being appropriated by the financial industries in the form of interest payments, fees, penalties, and service charges. Still, given the fact that interest payments alone takes up between 15-17% of household income,[1] a figure that does not include student loans, and that penalty fees on bank and credit card accounts can often double the amount one would otherwise pay, it would not be at all surprising if at least one dollar out of every five an American earns over the course of her lifetime is now likely to end up in Wall Street’s coffers in one way or another. The percentage may well be approaching the amount the average American will pay in taxes. In fact, for the least affluent Americans, it has probably long since overtaken it."
So, that's what he sees. But, again, he's a white male of a certain prominence. Is that what will feel like a common cause to other communities? It's very hard to know. So, I think we need to keep it as broad as possible. It needs a feeling of "we know that we're in this together, so let's come together".
Just my humble opinion. One of many.
- Allison
circles knitting
UnaMuses (still under construction, this is a consolidation of my writings. Still migrating work over. Thank you for your patience.)
UnaMuses (still under construction, this is a consolidation of my writings. Still migrating work over. Thank you for your patience.)
Roslinhood - for residents of micro-neighborhoods in Roslindale
Jubilee Massachusetts- breaking the chains of debt
Jubilee Massachusetts- breaking the chains of debt
Allison Nevitt
Oct 21, 2011, 4:39:34 PM10/21/11
to occupy...@googlegroups.com
absolutely. this movement has forced the public dialogue to focus on jobs when the powers that be were throwing up everything they could to avoid it. The media can deride us all they want, but our inherent message that the Wall St/Government alliance is corrupt and destroying us is very clear.
- Allison
- Allison
circles knitting
UnaMuses (still under construction, this is a consolidation of my writings. Still migrating work over. Thank you for your patience.)
UnaMuses (still under construction, this is a consolidation of my writings. Still migrating work over. Thank you for your patience.)
Roslinhood - for residents of micro-neighborhoods in Roslindale
Jubilee Massachusetts- breaking the chains of debt
Jubilee Massachusetts- breaking the chains of debt
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