Classical guitar bridge design

[redsurf57]

I was wondering if anyone ever gets creative with the bridge design on a classical guitar. I see so many cool and creative designs on steal strings but classics are always the same rectangle. Robbie says on his construction video not to mess with the bridge design since the guitar is built around it, but Would it still work if the wings were shaped a little different maybe a soft rounded end, or how about a beveled diamond shape on the ends, or Maybe pinch the sides a little . Seems like as long as the weight is right and the saddle slot and tie block is right on,  one could play with those wings a little and still stay within the tolerance so that the sound projection is spot on. I know that fuction is first but as a creative new builder I'm wanting to bend the rules a little. What do you think? If I'm treading on sacred ground here please forgive since I'm a newbe😳 Thanks aloha Bob 

[John K Larson Jr.]

You can check out Jimmy D'Aquisto's nylon crossover (https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/d-aquisto-james-l-nylon-crossover-nylon-string.html) here.

The plans are also available through GAL (https://luth.org/instrument-plans/guitar-plans/other-guitar-plans/). 

John

[JohnParchem]

go for it, here is a Richard Schneider classical. You may find that there are some that believe that the "classical" guitar design was set with Torres. You can get around those biases by calling it a Nylon string classical.  Richard Schneider was a prominent luthier. 

[jwsh...@q.com]

Bob, you are considering treading on supposed sacred ground by altering bridge design.. If you are following instructions from Robbie's course following his instructions increases the chance your guitar will sound very similar to what his guitars sound like.

I do not make classical guitars so I can not speak to changing bridge design on a classical guitar. I make parlor guitars and ukuleles. There is also a traditional following in steel string guitar and ukulele construction and design. I am not a member of that group. The traditional club  wouldn't let me in because I can not leave things alone. Oh well!

I broke tradition with my adjustable bridge, on my parlor guitars, which works perfectly and sounds amazing. Traditionalists told me it would not work. They were wrong! 

I broke tradition by using a Martin guitar style X-brace on my big body jazz ukuleles as well as a Martin style non adjustable truss rod. I also use the adjustable bridge on my ukuleles which is off the beaten path.

Since I stepped off of the traditional path my instruments have never sounded or played better! 

No need to apologize to me for treading on sacred ground. I encourage it! To quote Rolo, " YOUR GUITAR YOUR RULES". Make sure your scale and setup is correct and have fun with the rest. Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: redsurf57

Date: Tue, Apr 20, 2021 3:57 AM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Classical guitar bridge design

I was wondering if anyone ever gets creative with the bridge design on a classical guitar. I see so many cool and creative designs on steal strings but classics are always the same rectangle. Robbie says on his construction video not to mess with the bridge design since the guitar is built around it, but Would it still work if the wings were shaped a little different maybe a soft rounded end, or how about a beveled diamond shape on the ends, or Maybe pinch the sides a little . Seems like as long as the weight is right and the saddle slot and tie block is right on,  one could play with those wings a little and still stay within the tolerance so that the sound projection is spot on. I know that fuction is first but as a creative new builder I'm wanting to bend the rules a little. What do you think? If I'm treading on sacred ground here please forgive since I'm a newbe😳 Thanks aloha Bob 

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[Ronnie]

Scooter,  "Make sure your scale and setup are the best and have fun with the rest". Sounds like a T-shirt. ;-)
RW

[Trent]

I've made a few nylon string guitars with varied bridge designs:

You need to think about where the bridge footprint falls in relation to the braces in addition to weight and relative size, otherwise, I say go for it. Be creative and happy.

[Robert Hamilton]

Thanks Trent I really like the way the bridge design complement the rosett  design thanks for sharing . Can you be a little more detailed on how to determine the footprint . My top bracing is from Robbie's plan, I'm thinking of using the bridge design specks he gives but changing the wings a little. Thanks for your advice!  Bob

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On Apr 21, 2021, at 2:18 PM, Trent <tr...@paleleiguitars.com.au> wrote:

I've made a few nylon string guitars with varied bridge designs:

<F2820DE3-CEEF-4926-86EC-F5FD5320F972_1_105_c.jpeg><CEB20F60-B1B9-49FD-A17F-0EF829E85860_1_105_c.jpeg><C41AAD4D-7042-4E13-84A5-657AC60D0F19_1_105_c.jpeg><4FB47EBC-4CAD-46F9-A3BE-070104F032AC_1_105_c.jpeg>

You need to think about where the bridge footprint falls in relation to the braces in addition to weight and relative size, otherwise, I say go for it. Be creative and happy.

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[JohnParchem]

Look to where the braces and bridge  overlap and maintain that in your design. Trevor  Gore argues the value of shortening the wings.   In general when you change the design you should have a feeling for what is form and what is function. The classical bridge is mostly function over form. Rounding or tapering the wings have no significant functional issues I can see.  I am less sure of the beveled diamond shape as there are a bunch of ways I can imagine a bridge with that description.

[Trent]

From memory, Robbie's plan has 7 fan braces of which the original bridge's footprint crosses 5 out of the 7 (fans 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6). So for your design, you should also make sure it crosses these 5 braces at the same place.  If you want to shorten the wings on your bridge, for example, make sure you do not shorten them so much that the bridge only crosses fan brace 3, 4 and 5, instead ensure they cross 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. I hope that makes sense...

[Robert Hamilton]

Ok , good explaining I understand. Thanks for the help aloha Bob  

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On Apr 22, 2021, at 12:58 PM, Trent <tr...@paleleiguitars.com.au> wrote:

From memory, Robbie's plan has 7 fan braces of which the original bridge's footprint crosses 5 out of the 7 (fans 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6). So for your design, you should also make sure it crosses these 5 braces at the same place.  If you want to shorten the wings on your bridge, for example, make sure you do not shorten them so much that the bridge only crosses fan brace 3, 4 and 5, instead ensure they cross 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. I hope that makes sense...

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[romsmith]

Guilty as charged. 

Personally, I really do not like the classical "brick" tie block shape. Also, they are a real pain (and waste of time unless CNC'd) to make, and Gore, Jannson and others (Mottola? Dickens?) over the last 40 years or so claimed that the wings are too long for their own good. Furthermore, changing the bridge shape can cut its weight by up to 6g!

So by copying a 200-year-old design I would be building something that is inefficient, time-consuming and that is not pleasing to me personally. 

That's just not how I roll.

Since I don't build "classical" classicals, I just changed the shape. My "official" excuse is that I can cut the bridge weight from ~24g down to 11g and get better-than-traditional stiffness by using CF laminate. Making a traditionally shaped bridge out of CF laminate if considered to be torture and is banned under the Geneva convention (CF eats blade edges in seconds, making even the toughest men cry), so I get away with the modern shape.

[Note, 11g is pretty extreme, so if you are putting that on a traditional classical soundboard designed for 24g bridges, without fully understanding the consequences, you might run into trouble.]

As far as the players' reaction, I get anything from "Wow that looks cool" to completely unreasonable snobbism that I somehow do not understand the intricacies of classical guitar design and tradition, therefore my guitars cannot possibly be good enough even to try them. Once the players try the guitars and see what a difference ~12g of bridge mass makes on the right soundboard, the looks of the bridge no longer matter, even if they do not fall in love with them at first sight.

To be honest, the "snobs" wouldn't buy my guitar anyway, because the label is not famous enough, but they are not my target customers.

I'm with scoot - back in the days traditions existed to pass the wisdom from generation to generation. These days, in many cases they just hold you back. Imagine coming to a dentist or to a surgeon who would tell you that he only uses the tools and techniques that existed in the 18th century. You'd break the land speed record running out of the hospital. So why are so many luthiers stuck in the prehistoric times? I don't know.

[jwsh...@q.com]

Roman, I love the color schemes on your instruments. Very warm and earthy! Your sacrilegious bridges look very nice! 

Sometimes I match my bridge design to my head stock design. It usually requires more work than the standard cookie cutter bridge designs but adds a lot of symmetry and uniqueness to the build.

Quite frankly, after looking at a lot of classical classical guitars I,  personally,  find very little to set them apart from all of the other cookie cutter classical guitars out there.

My opinion on why a lot of builders are, as you mentioned, stuck in prehistoric times is due to the fact that few people lead and most people follow. I don't have a problem with folks exercising their right to follow. I don't have a problem with folks exercising their right and ability to lead. What ever turns your crank is a personal choice worthy of respect. 

There are both kinds of builders on this forum. Followers as well as builders that aren't locked in time. Go back through the forum archives. You can look at the builds and tell who's who!

I think I might quit building instruments if every one of my builds basically looked the same! What's the saying: variety is the spice of life. Scooter 

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[ogarrido]

I love prehistoric bridges. 

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[romsmith]

Some of them do look nice...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anji_Bridge#/media/File:Zhaozhou_Bridge.jpg