Acoustic Guitar Recording Comparison with the 'Lyric' Microphone

[wjguitars]

I have made a comparison recording (no effects added) with my latest acoustic guitar build, see photo attachment.  This has involved recording with the 'L. R. Baggs Lyric' microphone and 'Rhodes' microphones.  I think that the 'Rhodes' microphones produced the better audio.  The 'Lyric' does need some EQ shaping and would perform well for live amplification.  I have produced a video of the comparison, see youtube link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDx2gBGITnk

I would also like to try the combination of 'K & K' pickup, or, the 'JJB Prestige GS330' acoustic pickup with the 'Lyric'.  It would be interesting to hear the results when blended through a good D. I. box preamp and then compare it with the 'K & K Trinity System'.

I be interested in hearing some comments from the forum.

Wayne

WJ Guitars

Australia

[Charles Tauber]

Wayne,

This probably wasn't what you had in mind when soliciting comments from the forum, but here goes - and I'll try to keep it as succinct as possible. 

I have a number of observations after five decades of playing primarily folk, jazz and classical guitar and four decades of making guitars. First, to the average listener, a guitar sounds like a guitar. The average listener doesn't know or care what gear is used to make the sound, record the sound or amplify the sound. Guitar players who are "into" gear are often interested in what make of guitar is being played, what model, what strings, what capo... and what equipment are used to amplify or what equipment is used to record it, but the average listener doesn't. 

Second, I've observed that most listeners, most guitar players and many luthiers have no objective criteria or methodology for assessing the response of a guitar. My observation is that most players assessing a guitar simply run through their repertoire and, based on that, either like the sound or don't. Few objectively evaluate the actual response of the instrument with the result being that the assessment is entirely based on subjective qualities - and, often, memory. Few look at objective qualities of response, including sustain, decay, onset transients, wave forms, distribution/strength of overtones and so on. Objective data does not provide a value judgement  of how "good" or "bad" a response is: the data can be used to quantify the characteristics that a specific listener determines to be "good" or "bad" tone. It allows the listener/player to identify what characteristics comprise what he or she considers to be "good" tone. Once the listener or player knows what those characteristics are, an individual instrument can then quickly be assessed to either posses the desired values of those specific characteristics or not, leading to an objective criteria and methodology for saying "I like this one" vs. "I don't like this one". Using such a methodology, I can generally determine if a guitar has the sound/response that I consider "good" in literally a minute or two. 

Third, the "naked" - unamplfied, unprocessed - sound of a guitar is one thing. The sound of a guitar that has been "put through" some kind of electrification - microphones, pickups, transducers, etc. - is another. It is similar to taking a photo of a sky versus "processing" the image in Photoshop to make the sky whatever color, tint or shade you want. If you have a preferred color of the sky, and can process the image to attain that exact color, it doesn't really matter what color the sky actually was. Similarly, it doesn't matter what the "natural" sound of a guitar is if you can get the sound you want through "processing". With sufficient processing, one can take the "natural" sound of a guitar and make it sound like anything from a train whistle to a chorus of human voices. 

Fourth, all too often players focus too heavily on "gear" and not enough on musicality and technical skill. Many players rely on the gear to make the sound their playing produces, rather than develop the skills to alter or shape the sound of their playing. For example, Segovia sounded like Segovia regardless of how he was amplified or what make or model of guitar he played: his gear didn't define his playing or what he sounded like. Certainly, "better" instruments made him sound "better", as did "better" recording equipment, but that was icing on his cake. Too many seem to confuse icing with cake.  

In summary, I'm not really sure what you are asking or what sort of comments you were expecting to solicit. Each of your recordings unmistakably sounds like a guitar. Does each recording sound different than the others? Sure, in some subtle ways. Is one recording "better" than the others? That depends upon the criteria being used to evaluate "better" and whether or not that is entirely subjective versus objective. Perhaps you were looking to identify which, if any, listeners tended to prefer more than the others?

Charles   

[wjguitars]

Thanks Charles for your comments.  I agree that it is a personal choice for musicians choosing a guitar and type of amplification to suit their application.  I have been building acoustic guitars for around 10 years, playing guitars for around 45 years, and sound engineering both live and studio recordings for 30 years.  The acoustic guitar pickup systems have been evolving over many years now and currently, with tech knowledge improvements there is a vast range of equipment to choose from that provide high quality sound.  Personally, I don't like the piezo under saddle pickup systems and prefer the sound quality of a microphone.  I accept that other type of pickup systems have a role to avoid feedback issues that may be a problem when playing on stage with a band of musicians.   However, the ability to blend a microphone with a pickup  does has some acceptable advantages.

I also agree that the average listen is not aware of the technical factors and just what to enjoy the musicians performance.  Often I am asked by musicians who are looking for ways to improve their sound amplification quality with their acoustic guitar to achieve a more natural sound and ask what would I recommend.   At the end of the day the player needs to listen and play a guitar with a pickup that appeals to them for amplification.

I was interested in discussion on the forum regarding experience and preference with acoustic guitar pickup systems for installation in a acoustic guitar, be it steel string or classical.

Best Regards

Wayne 

[barry...@gmail.com]

Hi Wayne!

I have similar experience to you but only about 25 years on guitar (love and studio). I also have 54 years on saxes!

Regarding your pickup questions - I’m not much help since I’m looking for similar solutions. 

In my most recent build I’m using a Mi-Si trio which combines a Baggs under the saddle and a MEM’s mic. I adjust for predominantly microphone, but for full band I run more of the transducer.

Doing that, I get the “quacking” which I’m able to process back out pretty favorably with a Fishman Platinum Stage box. One neat feature of the Mi-Si unit is no battery! It uses a super capacitor - plug it in to electric for 1 minute and I get about 6 hours of play time!

I talked to JJB about using their pickups and they thought it would work to eliminate the Baggs transducer - but I chickened out since soldering is not my forte!

I do wonder if anyone has tried the K & K or JJB transducers in locations other than the saddle. I’m thinking this would enhance the natural guitar sound and eliminate the brittleness.

The only problem with experimentation is the time involved for each minute change.

In His Name - 

Barry

On Dec 23, 2022, at 3:41 PM, wjguitars <wjgu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Charles for your comments.  I agree that it is a personal choice for musicians choosing a guitar and type of amplification to suit their application.  I have been building acoustic guitars for around 10 years, playing guitars for around 45 years, and sound engineering both live and studio recordings for 30 years.  The acoustic guitar pickup systems have been evolving over many years now and currently, with tech knowledge improvements there is a vast range of equipment to choose from that provide high quality sound.  Personally, I don't like the piezo under saddle pickup systems and prefer the sound quality of a microphone.  I accept that other type of pickup systems have a role to avoid feedback issues that may be a problem when playing on stage with a band of musicians.   However, the ability to blend a microphone with a pickup  does has some acceptable advantages.

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[Wayne Johnson]

Thanks Barry for your comments on Mic / transducers issues.  At this I have not purchased a 'K & K' or similar to try out yet.  I am handy with the soldering iron and I know it is feasible to open up the L. R. Baggs Lyric jack output and it can be reorganised to connect a K & K output to the sleeve tab on the jack mounted plug and the Lyric  to the tip connection.  Then use a stereo jack cable to send the Lyric and the K & K to a two channel preamp to operate each output either independently, or blended together.  When I have some spare dollars available I will undertake this experiment to see how effectively this may work.  Hopefully, this setup would cover most amplification aspects for live performance be it solo with more mic with a natural sound and less transducer, or with a band with more transducer and less mic to avoid spill and feedback issues.

Best Regards

Wayne

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[skywa...@gmail.com]

I am very impressed with the LR Baggs Anthem.  Has a bridgeplate mic and and undersaddle transducer that can be mixed in the pre (which sits slightly recessed at the soundhole).  The only issue (pretty minor) is that the guitar's soundhole brace can't be over about 4 or 5 mm high or the preamp won't sit flush.  (Easy enough on a new build, but you might have to shave a brace in an existing guitar).  I very much like the sound.  I've found the undersaddle transducer sounds better than the Fishman or Martin, and the mic is really nice sounding.  Baggs also makes a Tayloresque version of the Anthem that mounts into the rim and has a few additional features.  Bought one, but haven't tried it out in a guitar yet.

[wjguitars]

In addition to the Acoustic Steel String 'Guitar Recording Comparison' youtube video I have produced another youtube of the audio track of the 'L. R. Baggs Lyric' microphone with enhancement and effects.  See link Below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfbvcSR1oUI&t=0s

These improvements support the use of the 'L. R. Baggs Lyric' microphone for both live performance and recording using a suitable D. I. box with good quality EQ. control and adding reverb with a compressor certainly helps to achieve high quality audio.  In some live band situations a sound hole 'feedback buster' may help to avoid feedback issues.

Wayne

[wjguitars]

Sorry about this.

 

Please disregard previous post. I have revised the video due to the previous video overall length being too long and had the wrong audio track.  The edited video is now shorter with the long blank ending removed and enhancement tools used are now shown throughout the revised video with the correct audio track.  See new link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRllrlRuEW4

Wayne

[Don Parker]

Wayne--

First, Happy New Year!  I have been playing for 45 years, tinkering with live sound and recording for about 42 of those years, and building guitars (off and on, moving slowly due to other responsibilities) for about 25 years.  I've tried lots and lots of acoustic guitar pickups over those four decades.  I find the Lyric (particularly combined with a Venue preamp, also from LR Baggs) to be a really good sounding system, and I would not hesitate to recommend that combination to anyone who wants their live sound to be more like the sound of an acoustic guitar.  To me, under saddle transducers (USTs) inherently sound so different from an acoustic guitar that one has to work really, really hard to make them sound more like an acoustic guitar, and rarely succeed.  But, they are great at fighting feedback, so lots of people use them.  I think contact transducers (like the K&K) are a step up from the USTs.  Sometime in 2023, I am going to tinker with a commercially available modeling system based on contact transducers, but I'm not ready to comment on it yet, because I have not had personal experience with it yet, but the samples I have heard sound really good.

I personally believe that acoustic guitarists have been too willing to ditch microphones for live performance and use pickups instead.  If one is in a band setting with drums, electric bass and electric guitars, then yes, a pickup is a necessity.  If one is in a group setting without those sources of noise, but the environment is generally inhospitable to microphones, then I can see the value in choosing a pickup over a microphone; fair enough.  But I see all sorts of acoustic guitarists choose to amplify with a pickup instead of microphones even when the use of a microphone would be ideal in their setting, and it saddens me.  In my opinion, a microphone sounds soooooo much better.  That's why the Lyric appeals to me, because it is essentially a microphone that has been tweaked for doing its job from inside the guitar.  Between a Lyric and a decent external microphone, for sound quality, the external microphone wins with my ears, 100% of the time.  But the Lyric is more practical in "microphone inhospitable" environments, for sure.

One thing to watch for with the Lyric is that, since it is a microphone, feedback can be an issue quicker than it would be for USTs.  Again, feedback prevention is the main valid reason for picking a UST over the other options.  It certainly isn't sound quality (again, in my opinion).

Good luck with the search for great amplified sound!

--Don

[Wayne Johnson]

Thanks Don for your comments on microphones and pickups for acoustic guitars.  You have covered the major factors very well.  I am planning to try out the combination of a K & K pickup with the Lyric with the ability to run independently or blended together.  Hopefully, this type of setup would cover most live performance requirements.  For a loud band setting let the K & K be used to avoid feedback or, use the Lyric to suit other types of music settings to achieve the more natural acoustic guitar sound.  Other blending combinations would be available making this type of setup more versatile.  If inner ear monitoring is used on stage then this may help to minimise feedback issues. 

I understand that the K & K can be connected directly to the sleeve terminal of the Lyrics jack output and then use a stereo jack cable to run both signals to a suitable preamp to control the EQ and Volume levels either independently or blended together.  Installing the Lyric and the K & K would be easier to do before glueing the back on when building a guitar.  Hope to try this out soon on a new guitar build.   (This setup would be similar to the K & K Trinity package that is available).

Thanks again for your input that is valued.  Happy New Year!

Wayne 

 

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