Classical tuning machine conundrum

[David Smith]

I have a 1971 Contreras that that needs new tuning machines. The spacing is 36mm instead of 35mm. 35mm machines almost work but are very stiff of the 1,3,4, and 6 strings to turn. Finding 36mm spacing with the correct style is difficult. The Schiller Lyra Grand Tune machines are perfect except for the spacing.

Any thoughts?

Regards,

David

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[JohnParchem]

You can buy 6 individual classical tuners.

[David Smith]

That was Schaller’s recommendation as well. You are in good company. There is also Rodger’s tuning machines but that will run about $1000.

 

Thanks for the thought.

David

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[JohnParchem]

I used the individual  Schertler Classical Guitar Tuning Keys, Way less than $1000. I liked them looks and function. 

[Neill S Morgan]

I think this is related—anyone know how I can buy 7 classical tuners? Or, Do I have to buy 7 sets of 6 and make six 7-string guitars to use them all?

Neill 

On Jun 19, 2024, at 3:53 PM, JohnParchem <johnp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I used the individual  Schertler Classical Guitar Tuning Keys, Way less than $1000. I liked them looks and function. 

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[David Smith]

So, the problem is a little more interesting. It turns out that the spacing of the holes is actually spot on at 35mm. The problem is that the Schaller Lyra Grand Tune machines with the Deluxe rollers have a 10mm bearing on the end. If this is in a hole that is larger than 10mm (i.e. 10.3mm  such as might be drilled for rollers without bearings) then the roller shafter flex and binds the gear when turning. I diagnosed this by removing the tuning machines and then pressing on the rollers similar to what happens when there is tension on the strings. The rollers have side to side play in them resulting in the gears binding. With no string pressure the tuning machines work great. With string pressure, they bind.

 

So, it seems my choice is to go with a set of tuners that does not have bearings or to plug the end of the holes in the headstock and re-drill for exactly 10mm (so the bearing end of the roller is captured with no play). I have seen some recommendations to try to build up the hole for a roller using CA glue and wood dust and then re-drill the hole. Has anyone had to do something similar to this? I see no need to do the outer holes in the slotted head stock – only the inner ones.

 

Regards

David

[Paul McEvoy]

Seems like plugging would be the way to go.  I think that is a hair raising repair and you need to be fully in control as far as tear out, splitting and blow out.  Very easy to crack the headstock. 

I recently had to do something like this and did indeed put a crack in the headstock.  Fixed it but it isn’t a nice feeling.  

Going forward I would like have a hand operated drill to do this.  The power drill can really grab.  

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Paul McEvoy
207-699-9526

[Paul McEvoy]

Der Jung makes a nice set of single tuning machines btw.  They are available from classicaltuners.com 

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Paul McEvoy
207-699-9526

[Doug Shaker]

Could you not line the hole with veneer and then sand it to the appropriate thickness? Much lower pucker factor. 

Doug Shaker

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Paul McEvoy
207-699-9526

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[David Smith]

Interesting idea. Probably a great one. Let me consider it.

 

The original problem I have been solving is that the Fustero tuners that are on the Contreras have excessive were on the rollers from the strings – deep groves. I bought the Schaller tuners to replace the Fustero since the hole pattern and size was a good match (Lyra style and length). These worked but have the binding problem I have been fighting.

 

I had the bright idea last night to try and replace the roller on the Fustero with rollers from a set of Gotoh tuners. The screw hole in the rollers of the two tuners are different. This led to replacing the gear as well. So, I now have some Fustero tuners that have Goto gears and rollers that seem to work. The advantage of this is that the stability of the rollers with regard to string tension is controlled by the roller to headplate junction as opposed to the bearing to headstock using the Schaller.

 

My conclusions are:

1. The Schaller with deluxe rollers are great tuners but require a very exact 10mm hole for the bearing end of the roller.
2. The Schaller do not provide any mechanism to tighten or adjust the roller to headplate – they are designed to move a little which results in binding if the bearing is not well captured.
3. Replacing tuners on old guitars can be a pain…

 

Anyway, I think I have a solution I am going to try that does not require any plugging. If it does not work, then plugging/veneering is next.

 

I really like this guitar, which is the only reason I am spending so much time.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

Regards

David

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[Paul McEvoy]

Saying it again but Zebulon is incredibly helpful.  An amazing classical builder who sells and supports tuners.  Just reminding everyone that he is a great resource. 

https://classicalguitartuners.com/

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[valvetone]

Hello all

Dave Galea here, electric guitar builder in Montreal, Canada. First time posting in this fine group, much respect to all you acoustic luthiers (one day I will build a hand carved archtop!)

My suggestion for the classical tuning machine conundrum is to employ a machinists' trick by adding a couple of turns of invisible scotch tape to the bearings. This can be precisely fitted by selectively peeling off short lengths until a slip fit is achieved. The amount of tape is very minor and will not bind since the bearing will rotate correctly. I realise this is far from a traditional solution, but then Torres did not have the option of bearings either!

Best,

Dave Galea

GaleaGuitars

MTL,Canada

[Jeff Brown]

Der Jung makes individual tuners - I've heard good things about them and got 10 of them for a 10-string I'm building. You can get them in an 3even or odd number, with the odd one either right or left side. They're inexpensive, and look nicely made, with roller bearings no less. Available here:

https://classicalguitartuners.com/der-jung-tuners/

 

 

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[Paul McEvoy]

These are the Der Jung singles.  

Classicalguitartuners.com will sell you singles or a set of 7.    He's great.  

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[Neill S Morgan]

Thanks! That’s what I was looking for.

Neill

On Jun 21, 2024, at 2:35 PM, Paul McEvoy <paulmc...@gmail.com> wrote:



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