Freehand Bending - Wet or Dry(ish)?

[Ted Dodds]

Hello everyone - I am about ready to bend the sides of my first SS acoustic guitar. My only previous experience was with the sides of a concert ukulele (Honduran mahogany). I was happy with the results for a first-ever effort.

The guitar sides are East Indian rosewood at 0.085" thick. As I did with the uke I'll be using a heated pipe. I do not own a bending mold and heating blanket combo.

Two of my reference books suggest soaking the rosewood in hot water before bending. By contrast, Robbie O's freehand bending videos have him working with dry wood, apart from a wet rag at the waist. He is very persuasive!

As a newcomer, I would welcome your suggestions based on what's worked - or not worked - for you in the past. 

By the way, thanks again to everyone who weighed in on my rosette question the other week. You really helped me out. It's all installed (using super-thin CA glue), flush trimmed, and the sound hole cut. All without incident. It ain't perfect, but then again, neither am I ;) 

...Ted

[Greg Robinson]

Hi Ted, 

If you were successful and happy with the results of your ukulele sides, then it sounds like you’re on the right track. 

I soaked the sides of my first guitar prior to hand-bending them, and realized after-the-fact that it was likely overkill. I am currently working on guitar #7, and have become a believer in spritzing a little water as needed using a spray bottle plus a wet paper towel or rag, and going *v e r y  s l o w l y* until every contour is just right. 

I would also say (for the sake of anyone else who might be using a bending iron for the first time):  Make sure it's hot enough! My first iron did not quite get hot enough, and made the job go a lot longer than it has on subsequent projects (after I’d gotten a better iron). It also gave me a lesson in crack repair of the figured wood I’d decided to use. It all turned out fine, though! It sounds like your heated pipe gets plenty hot, though. 

Greg 

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[Jim Gammon]

Ted, just bent my first set of sides and did the first dry and the second wiping down the wood first and adding more water every time I went back to the iron. 

I had the least amount of scorching with the water. My sides are about as thick as yours and are also Indian Rosewood. I also had less cracking.

Again, this is my very first set I have ever bent and I, too, am using a homemade pipe rather than a mold. I kept a small container with about a cup of water in it to dip my rag in. I did not use the rag on the wood when bending. 

Results of dry bend we’re good, but the side where I wiped (not sipping, just wet) went much better. 

Hope this helps. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2022, at 9:04 PM, Greg Robinson <g.h.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Ted, 

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[JohnParchem]

I like to bend hot and use the heat to plasticize the wood. The wood will not get as hot if the iron is turning the soaked water into steam. This is especially true with figured wood. EIR is pretty bendable so either method will work. Turing water into steam takes a bunch of energy.  I do spritz the wood as it seems to help transfer the heat into the wood. 

[Paul McEvoy]

Side question.  What are you guys using to heat your bending pipes?

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[René B. Peña]

Here’s my hand bending set-up.

I bend with a silicone heating

blanket and mold but almost always need to do a little touchup afterward. I always spritz the sides before and during.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/CAP6VTpUEgVVY0k-NXmSJFxywstAd86iL0Hi4G9627Cp0%3DXROaA%40mail.gmail.com.

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Right is right, and wrong ain't right!
But,
close enuf is good enuf!

[Eric Schenk]

So far all my bending has been with hot pipe variations, both electric and gas torch. I prefer electric because I don't like having to avoid the output of the torch.

I just got a bender setup though, so I'm going to be asking questions about bending wood the other way soon enough I expect :)

Like John I've found dry bending at high temperature, with just a light spritz, works best. Rosewood bends pretty easily. Ebony not so much. Spruce is hit and miss, and usually I'm trying to bend a fairly thick piece when I am bending spruce.

One additional trick I've done for really thick pieces is to apply heat from both sides using a flat iron and a bending iron, but it's tricky to do this. I'm basically using the flat iron to push the wood around the curved iron as it goes plastic. If you do this too early, you will crack it.

For really thick pieces soaking can help, I theorize because it speeds heat transfer to the center of the piece, but I also find it locks the shape fairly quickly once you steam away the water, so if I get the bend wrong it ends up being very hard to adjust / tweak.

Also, in my experience, for some woods, getting it really wet just invites it to fall apart. Highly figured wood comes to mind.

[Joe Shuter]

Rene, I noticed your flip up light next to your roll of paper towels. I have one of those on my bench as well. Really great to pin point where you need light. I also have one with an extendable goose neck that works well also. It is brighter than the smaller one. Scooter

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------ Original message------

From: René B. Peña

Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2022 7:58 AM

To: obrien...@googlegroups.com;

Cc:

Subject:Re: Freehand Bending - Wet or Dry(ish)?

Here’s my hand bending set-up.

I bend with a silicone heating

blanket and mold but almost always need to do a little touchup afterward. I always spritz the sides before and during.

On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 8:28 AM Paul McEvoy <paulmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Side question.  What are you guys using to heat your bending pipes?

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[Ramon Tristani]

Here’s some handy info for when you bend with a bender

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/p7rrfji4iag5cpcd1tvqkhdc.1644603813162%40email.lge.com.

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Thank you,
Ramon E. Tristani

[Ted Dodds]

Paul, 

FWIW I use a hardware store propane torch. My setup is nowhere near as elegant as René's and my pipe is vertical. 

The pipe is something I cut from a corner fence post from a decommissioned tennis court. It's just under 3" diameter. Round. I'd love to figure our how to make it an oval shape but haven't figured that out. I stuff a small wad of aluminum foil in the top end, allowing space for some of the hot gas to escape. And I have one of those quirky PTC surface thermometers held to the top of the pipe with a tiny magnet. 

As you can see, I rushed to assemble the jig and split the MDF in a couple of places. I'm hoping that having a flat surface will help me bend without twisting. 

Forgive me, that's probably TMI. ...Ted

[Ted Dodds]

Ramon,

Thanks for posting this table. Lots of good information there.

May I ask if you can clarify some of the column headings? Specifically, what does it mean when the Difficulty Range is blank; what does the blank centre column mean; and what do the time ranges in the Soak/Heat Blanket column mean? 

Perhaps this is all blindingly obvious but I'm not quite grasping some of the data points.

Many thanks...Ted

[Joe Shuter]

Ed, is your pipe galvanized? Galvanized pipe heated to a certain temperature off gasses cyanide gas which is poisonous. Personally, having worked around galvanized pipe and tubing in the construction industry I would not use galvanized material to heat for a bending pipe. As far as getting your pipe oval you might jack up the heavy end of a truck and let it down with a hydraulic jack on top of your pipe. That might work. You could look for some one with a hydraulic press to squeeze it oval for you. Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: Ted Dodds

Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2022 5:04 PM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Re: Freehand Bending - Wet or Dry(ish)?

Paul, 

FWIW I use a hardware store propane torch. My setup is nowhere near as elegant as René's and my pipe is vertical. 

The pipe is something I cut from a corner fence post from a decommissioned tennis court. It's just under 3" diameter. Round. I'd love to figure our how to make it an oval shape but haven't figured that out. I stuff a small wad of aluminum foil in the top end, allowing space for some of the hot gas to escape. And I have one of those quirky PTC surface thermometers held to the top of the pipe with a tiny magnet. 

As you can see, I rushed to assemble the jig and split the MDF in a couple of places. I'm hoping that having a flat surface will help me bend without twisting. 

Forgive me, that's probably TMI. ...Ted

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[Paul McEvoy]

Now I'm going to have to find a tennis court....

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[Rich]

I have to throw the BS flag on galvanized pipe giving off cyanide gas. Not true. It can fume zinc above 392 degrees F. which may cause some minor problems. 
Rich

[Ramon Tristani]

I wouldn’t call zinc fumes problems “minor”. Zinc fumes are very toxic. Don’t use galvanized pipes for this. Seriously. 

https://www.bucket-outlet.com/Is-Galvanized-Steel-Toxic.htm#:~:text=Zinc%20fumes%20are%20set%20free,fumes%20accumulate%20in%20the%20food.&text=In%20long-term%2C%20continuous%20exposure,to%20the%20American%20Galvanizers%20Association.

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[Louis Katzenberger]

I was a welder.

Cutting or welding on galvanized pipe without fresh supplied air will lock your lungs up.

I would say try it if you don’t believe me, but that would be irresponsible.

Many years later I have COPD.

Doc said that and smoking for a few years really set me back.

Why chance it? I was told , but I didn’t want to be a panzy.

Louie 

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[René B. Peña]

A friend of mine, when he was a Navy Sea Bee hated a CPO he worked for and when that chief asked by friend to build him a bbq grill he happily did, out of galvanized steel.

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[joe]

Rich, not wanting to be contentious I remember the last time someone said they were going to be using galvanized pipe for a bending pipe. I posted a comment about the dangers of using galvanized pipe in connection with heating it up. I recall at that time you threw up the BS flag basically undermining my safety comment. I wonder why?  My comment was meant to be a constructive, hopefully eye opening bit of information that might save some one health problems. My comment was not to spread BS just the opposite. 

Where did you get your information that seemingly gives the OK to use galvanized pipe for heating? When I worked in the oil fields in Wyoming and Colorado as a certified electrical welder we all had to attend safety meetings. In those safety meeting it was stressed that welding galvanized metal produced cyanide gas which is poisonous. We were issued special breathing apparatus to help us stay safe while heating up galvanized pipe and brackets. As a machinist we were alerted to the dangers of the smoke coming off of galvanized pipe while machining it. If it was not a danger to breath heated galvanized metal I do not think the companies would have wasted the time in safety meetings. It was an OSHA required or they could shut down the work site.

For clarification, zinc cyanide is a white powder used in the galvanization of metals. It is used in the electroplating process of galvanizing metals. Zinc cyanide, Zn(CN12) is present in the galvanization of metals and is surely off gassed as it is heated sufficiently. 

To say that using galvanized pipe has no safety concerns is, in my opinion BS which is an abbreviation for bad science! 

I stress that everyone does their own due diligence to research any thing that has safety concerns and not take anyones word for it. 

Scooter 

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[Ted Dodds]

I really appreciate Scooter raising the health and safety question related to heating galvanized pipe. I somehow thought it was made of aluminum, but when I consider its original purpose it seems far more likely that it is galvanized steel.

From a bit of Googling I found multiple references to galvanized steel emitting zinc fumes when heated above 392F. My pipe may not get that hot so it *might* not be a problem, but why risk my health when there are safe alternatives? 

LMI's heating blanket and temperature controller make an attractive option. (I am pretty confident I can make my own Fox style bending form.) However, after currency exchange (US-CAN), duty, and shipping, it would be getting close to $600. I'm not a cheapskate but as I am in my 70th year I probably have a limited number of guitars to build, so I'm trying not to over invest in highly specialized equipment.

Perhaps the best alternative is to find a non-galvanized pipe of similar diameter. LMII sells an aluminum pipe (round, not oval) or I can probably find one locally. In any event, my side bending adventures are on temporary pause.

Thank again to everyone for weighing in on this topic. It has been very instructive...Ted

[Rich]

Exhaust extensions sold at auto stores work well and come in a lot of shapes and sizes.

Rich

[Kevin Sjostrand]

Hi Ted

I'm on my phone and can't seem to post on the forum for some reason, but getting emails.

I just wanted to chime in and say my pipe is 3" thick wall aluminum. I got it very cheap as it was a cut off, from a pipe supply house. I bought a $12 electric bbq starter, squeezed it down a bit so it wood fit inside. I put a reostat switch on it but found I'd use it full heat anyway. I made 6 guitars with it, a variety of woods. Works great. I'd put a cotton rag on the pipe keeping it damp, and bend over that spot. Sides and binding. I put it on metal legs, bent althread that wad easy to install and mounted it to a board so its portable. This is mounted horizontal which makes bending easy while sitting down. 3" is a little big for the tight waist on an OM or smaller so I have another 2" pipe for that. Too small for the bbq starter to fit inside so I used the propane torch.

I have sense built my own Fox style bender using light bulbs at first which do work....gets over 300 degrees, but a few years ago I built a controller and got a Chinese blanket which made bends go really fast. 5 minutes start to finish. Really the best way to go.

Copper pipe I hear works really well but is more expensive. My 2" pipe is black pipe and heats up well....but will/does rust so you have to deal with that.

I recommend the binding g machine. Fun to build. Also the controller I built is like LMI's and it cost me about $70 to build.

Hope my experience helps you and others.

Kevin

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[bleak]

Is aluminized steel hazardous when heated?

[Kevin Sjostrand]

Don't know

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[Rich]

I normally wouldn’t respond to a post like this but I feel like I’m being made out to be the evil advice giver. I would first like to respond to the welding anecdotes. Is equating welding temperatures of 800° up to several thousand degrees to wood bending temperatures really fair? You know if you heat teflon to ~600° it gives off dangerous molecules. So we don’t do that. If we heat wood to 400-500° F. it will ignite. Rene has his heating tube mounted on a wood platform. Dangerous? Not likely but certainly possible and burns are much worse than metal fume fever.The article about the dangers of zinc really didn’t talk about metal fume fever very much and did’t say how serious it is. It was interesting but not very conclusive.

Most zink plating is done by dipping. Some is done by electroplating and some is done by Zinc cyanide plating. This means that the Zinc anode gives off Zn ions that migrate to the steel cathode and the cyanide ions migrate to the anode. There is no cyanide in the final coating.

Galvanized sheet metal is used in gas fireplace inserts, furnace ducts, and hundreds of other heat related things. If it is used in an outdoor barbecue, the heat (400-800°)would cause the zinc coat to disintegrate and rust but wouldn't cause metal fume fever. That went up in the smoke.

In conclusion. If Scooter can show us one legitimate scientific article that says galvanized metal gives off cyanide i will retract all that I’ve said. He brought it up so the burden of proof is on him. If you use reasonable wood bending temperatures, then using galvanized metal is perfectly safe. Like he said. Look it up.

Rich

[Joe Shuter]

Aluminum when heated gives off aluminum oxide smoke.Research it! Much research has claimed you shouldn't cook with aluminum cookware.  If I was of a mind to use a pipe for bending it would be a cold rolled seamless alloy steel pipe. Scooter

[Joe Shuter]

Rich, the purpose of my original comment about using galvanized pipe for a heating pipe was not to offend your ego and make you feel like the "evil advice giver". 

The purpose of my comment was to share with others the possible dangers of using galvanized pipe for a heating pipe. My comment is based on about fifty years of working in the machine tool industry, the oil industry, the welding industry as well as other jobs that dealt with galvanized pipe including the chain link fence industry. On one job in Wyoming I was the night EMT on a very large oil processing plant run by Chevron. In Rifle, Colorado I was a certified welder at a oil shale processing plant. On both of these OSHA controlled job sites they strongly stressed the dangers of off gassing from zinc cyanide present in galvanized pipe and brackets. I hardly think they would have made such a big deal of it if it wasn't a possible health risk. 

There are many, many sites on the internet I personally have researched and I found not one of them supporting your point if view.

It is obvious to me that you seem to have a problem with me personally or you would have required others that had warnings about galvanized pipe to share the "burden of proof" you assessed solely on me. Bottom line is I am under no "burden of proof" to prove anything anyone including you! I give my honest hearted comments to members of this forum in the hope it will enrich their building pursuits and life in general. It is unfortunate that you seemed to take my comments personally. I apologize if your feelings were hurt.That was never my intent.

I have tried to be a positive contributor to this forum and will continue to do so. My intent is never to demean only to share my experiences.

As stated in the rules of this forum it is time to agree to disagree and move on!

SCOOTER

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: 'Rich' via Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum

Date: Sat, Feb 12, 2022 5:10 PM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Re: Freehand Bending - Wet or Dry(ish)?

I normally wouldn’t respond to a post like this but I feel like I’m being made out to be the evil advice giver. I would first like to respond to the welding anecdotes. Is equating welding temperatures of 800° up to several thousand degrees to wood bending temperatures really fair? You know if you heat teflon to ~600° it gives off dangerous molecules. So we don’t do that. If we heat wood to 400-500° F. it will ignite. Rene has his heating tube mounted on a wood platform. Dangerous? Not likely but certainly possible and burns are much worse than metal fume fever.The article about the dangers of zinc really didn’t talk about metal fume fever very much and did’t say how serious it is. It was interesting but not very conclusive.

Most zink plating is done by dipping. Some is done by electroplating and some is done by Zinc cyanide plating. This means that the Zinc anode gives off Zn ions that migrate to the steel cathode and the cyanide ions migrate to the anode. There is no cyanide in the final coating.

Galvanized sheet metal is used in gas fireplace inserts, furnace ducts, and hundreds of other heat related things. If it is used in an outdoor barbecue, the heat (400-800°)would cause the zinc coat to disintegrate and rust but wouldn't cause metal fume fever. That went up in the smoke.

In conclusion. If Scooter can show us one legitimate scientific article that says galvanized metal gives off cyanide i will retract all that I’ve said. He brought it up so the burden of proof is on him. If you use reasonable wood bending temperatures, then using galvanized metal is perfectly safe. Like he said. Look it up.

Rich

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 4:05:36 PM UTC-7 kevinsj...@gmail.com wrote:

Don't know

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 2:02 PM bleak <cest....@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/46453c4a-70cc-4597-9178-caa648b32d7fn%40googlegroups.com.

[Ramon Tristani]

I don’t think anyone needs to provide a scientific article to demonstrate this. Google it. That information is readily available. I’m sorry, but it was bad advise and there is nothing wrong with saying “oops, I didn’t know”. We have all been guilty of issuing bad advise from time to time. We’ve all had to be humble enough to recognize it and not double down on things. It’s ok!

One purpose of discussion is to provide facts as well as learn them. 390°F is sufficient for galvanized pipes to give off toxic fumes that are plain bad for you. That’s a fact. Google it. Aluminum pipe or even steel pipe is readily available, and so are plenty of cheap bending irons, not just Stewmac’s. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/tpbfebt7v6og999c1m9011r7.1644714756167%40email.lge.com.

[Joe Shuter]

Rich's idea of using a steel exhaust extension for a bending pipe is pretty good. You could probably lay it on the drive way, put a 2x4 on top of it and smack it with a large hammer to make it oval. Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: 'Rich' via Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum

Date: Sat, Feb 12, 2022 1:05 PM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Re: Freehand Bending - Wet or Dry(ish)?

[Ramon Tristani]

Yep, that would work quite fine indeed!

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[Rich]

One Legitimate resource. I checked OSHA site and no information.

Rich

[Roger Sorensen]

This is an interesting feud!!    I don’t perceive that heating up a piece of galvanized pipe would produce zinc cyanide; there would need to be cyanide present to make that combination, although there is such a thing as zinc cyanide, and it is used in the process of electroplating, but, as far as I understand not in the normal hot-dip process.  I would think that, more logically, you might make some zinc oxide, which is equally bad. (But who cares? Bad is still bad!)   I am not convinced that the temperatures involved in bending a piece of wood would create poisonous gases, but maybe if you overheat the pipe it could.   They say that 392 F degrees is the maximum safe temperature and that probably includes a safety factor so you don’t accidently go too high.

And yeah welding on galvanized pipe is not good for you or the weld. You will both suffer.

 

In quality circles, it is sometimes necessary to verify the amount of zinc coating that has been applied.   One intuitively would think that you can just weigh it, but it is more accurate to remove the zinc and weigh it separately.   That is done by soaking the zinc coated product in vinegar. Sometimes the zinc is stubborn and you need a stronger acid, so muriatic acid will also work but is kind of nasty to use and you need better safety precautions.  Both are readily available. It would not be smart to use an aluminum pot to do this in because the acid will dissolve it also.  But if you want your aluminum pots to be nice and clean, vinegar will do the job. 

 

If you need to weld something, you might be able to braze the joint with Super Alloy 1 which works in lower temperatures and you can also use a grinder to grind away the zinc at the location where the weld is planned. 

 

But yes, be careful around the galvanized metal. It can make you sick or sicker.

 

By the way, I have been restoring a fire-damaged 1951 ES-175 and some of the parts are rusty from the water from putting out the fire.  I found that if I mix salt and vinegar together, it will clean up the rusty parts pretty well. After the salt/vinegar, soak in some water/baking soda to kill the acid in the vinegar.  They say that lemon juice and salt will also work, but I prefer to save those ingredients for making margaritas.

 

 

R

 

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From: obrien...@googlegroups.com <obrien...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ramon Tristani <raytr...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 8:49:59 PM
To: obrien...@googlegroups.com <obrien...@googlegroups.com>

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[joe]

Roger. one time I found an antique spoke shave so rusted it was a crusty mess. I used the process called reverse electrolysis to completely remove all of the rust and grime with no damage to the different parts of the spoke shave. That might be a method of removing rust from vintage guitar parts.  Scooter

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[Rich]

OSHA must have changed their stance on zink cyanide dangers in galvanized  steel.

https://www.osha.gov/welding-cutting-brazing/standards

https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA_FS-3647_Welding.pdf

Rich