Keeping up with Sproutcore
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Bob Spryn
Apr 19, 2010, 5:28:53 PM4/19/10
to Cappuccino & Objective-J
Those guys are doing some pretty cool stuff. The touch api is just
fantastic looking... a game changer I think. Cappuccino looking to
keep pace with the touch stuff?
Love Cappuccino, wondering if the bigger sproutcore team might make it
hard to keep the same pace.
Thoughts?
Bob
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fantastic looking... a game changer I think. Cappuccino looking to
keep pace with the touch stuff?
Love Cappuccino, wondering if the bigger sproutcore team might make it
hard to keep the same pace.
Thoughts?
Bob
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Brad Hutchins
Apr 19, 2010, 5:33:03 PM4/19/10
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Sprout Core?
I am not particularly impressed with Mobile Me (I believe it is Sprout Core). With Objective-J mirroring Objective-C I would think Apple would want to back these guys up.
Randy Luecke
Apr 19, 2010, 7:16:14 PM4/19/10
to Cappuccino & Objective-J
My thoughts:
The sproutcore guys have done good work on their touch stuff… It's
really nothing new though, they've been working on it for quite some
time. Greenhouse, their interface builder, is not impressive at all…
it doesn't really do anything.
I think most developers will first opt for what they are use to.
iPhone and Mac developers are use to Cocoa. Sproutcore touts
themselves as being Cocoa on the web, yet they diverge from the cocoa
API whenever possible. They're really nothing more than a MVC with
their own API.
Sproutcore is controlled by many Apple employees now, and almost no
one outside of the core sproutcore team (a la Apple) as shipped an app
using sproutcore. If we look at Cappuccino TimeTable, Mockingbird,
Observer, EnStore, Almost.At, and various other apps still in the
works were all done by people outside of 280 North.
We should look at what can be done with the frameworks. Cappuccino
provides a beautiful UI for developers, which is particularly helpful
when you don't have money to hire a designer. Even Ace 2.0 is still
REALLY ugly IMO.
Neither open source project provides great documentation, but since
Cappuccino follows cocoa so closely you really can get most of what
you want simply by looking at the very nice cocoa documentation.
Cappuccino also provides some amazing tools like nib2cib and objective-
j is perhaps one of the best languages out there. Some would rather
write CSS and OOP javascript, I like classes and the abstraction Capp
provides.
Personally I hate messing with CSS, and I hate having to run a ruby
server to do any development.
But, Francisco demo a little bit of what is happening with
Cappuccino's touch stuff (which is not 100% public) expect more in the
coming weeks.
The sproutcore guys have done good work on their touch stuff… It's
really nothing new though, they've been working on it for quite some
time. Greenhouse, their interface builder, is not impressive at all…
it doesn't really do anything.
I think most developers will first opt for what they are use to.
iPhone and Mac developers are use to Cocoa. Sproutcore touts
themselves as being Cocoa on the web, yet they diverge from the cocoa
API whenever possible. They're really nothing more than a MVC with
their own API.
Sproutcore is controlled by many Apple employees now, and almost no
one outside of the core sproutcore team (a la Apple) as shipped an app
using sproutcore. If we look at Cappuccino TimeTable, Mockingbird,
Observer, EnStore, Almost.At, and various other apps still in the
works were all done by people outside of 280 North.
We should look at what can be done with the frameworks. Cappuccino
provides a beautiful UI for developers, which is particularly helpful
when you don't have money to hire a designer. Even Ace 2.0 is still
REALLY ugly IMO.
Neither open source project provides great documentation, but since
Cappuccino follows cocoa so closely you really can get most of what
you want simply by looking at the very nice cocoa documentation.
Cappuccino also provides some amazing tools like nib2cib and objective-
j is perhaps one of the best languages out there. Some would rather
write CSS and OOP javascript, I like classes and the abstraction Capp
provides.
Personally I hate messing with CSS, and I hate having to run a ruby
server to do any development.
But, Francisco demo a little bit of what is happening with
Cappuccino's touch stuff (which is not 100% public) expect more in the
coming weeks.
Bob Spryn
Apr 19, 2010, 7:17:45 PM4/19/10
to Cappuccino & Objective-J
Check out http://touch.sproutcore.com/hedwig/ on an iPad (if you
happen to have one available.)
On Apr 19, 3:33 pm, Brad Hutchins <oshyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sprout Core?
>
> I am not particularly impressed with Mobile Me (I believe it is Sprout
> Core). With Objective-J mirroring Objective-C I would think Apple would
> want to back these guys up.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Bob Spryn <bobsp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Those guys are doing some pretty cool stuff. The touch api is just
> > fantastic looking... a game changer I think. Cappuccino looking to
> > keep pace with the touch stuff?
>
> > Love Cappuccino, wondering if the bigger sproutcore team might make it
> > hard to keep the same pace.
>
> > Thoughts?
>
> > Bob
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Cappuccino & Objective-J" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to objec...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > objectivej+...@googlegroups.com<objectivej%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou ps.com>
> > .
happen to have one available.)
On Apr 19, 3:33 pm, Brad Hutchins <oshyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sprout Core?
>
> I am not particularly impressed with Mobile Me (I believe it is Sprout
> Core). With Objective-J mirroring Objective-C I would think Apple would
> want to back these guys up.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Bob Spryn <bobsp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Those guys are doing some pretty cool stuff. The touch api is just
> > fantastic looking... a game changer I think. Cappuccino looking to
> > keep pace with the touch stuff?
>
> > Love Cappuccino, wondering if the bigger sproutcore team might make it
> > hard to keep the same pace.
>
> > Thoughts?
>
> > Bob
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Cappuccino & Objective-J" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to objec...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/objectivej?hl=en.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cappuccino & Objective-J" group.
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> >http://groups.google.com/group/objectivej?hl=en.
>
> --
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Brad Hutchins
Apr 19, 2010, 7:24:21 PM4/19/10
to objec...@googlegroups.com
I know you said not 100% public... But is there a Demo online of Cappucino touch
Randy Luecke
Apr 19, 2010, 9:05:29 PM4/19/10
to Cappuccino & Objective-J
No, 280 hasn't posted their JSConf demo anywhere yet.
I don't want to say too much about it. It's their announcement to
make.
> > objectivej+...@googlegroups.com<objectivej%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou ps.com>
> > .
> > .
I don't want to say too much about it. It's their announcement to
make.
> > .
> > --
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> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> > .
Brad Hutchins
Apr 19, 2010, 9:23:14 PM4/19/10
to objec...@googlegroups.com
Roger that... But if I look at the sprout core one will I get the idea behind it and just imagine OB-J and Capp instead?
Ross Boucher
Apr 20, 2010, 2:51:44 PM4/20/10
to objec...@googlegroups.com
A few things to keep in mind: the touch API is exposed at the javascript level. Bringing it up to the Cappuccino level (or the sproutcore level) is really almost no work at all. In fact, I've already written the code. It should be making its way into the master branch sometime this week.
I don't believe that the iPad, in the short term, is a game changer. So long as it remains the only viable touchscreen tablet device, people writing apps for it should really be asking themselves how to make the best app possible, and right now that's using Cocoa Touch. Want to do something with motion events? Or the user's photo library? Want to send an email through iPad? The list of functionality that Apple has not (and probably will not) expose to the web continues to grow.
On the other hand, I think there probably will be quality competition, and thats when things are going to get interesting. The web will almost certainly be a strong part of that competition, which will benefit everyone. And at that point, one of the huge advantages Cappuccino will have is offering the tens of thousands of existing Cocoa Touch developers a clear way to transition to new platforms and even share code and resources across those platforms.
We've already been investigating the iPad ecosystem, and have a lot of great work in the pipeline, which we talked about at JSConf. The ability to use the objective-j debugging tools alone can double your productivity. We've also built a tool for recording user sessions on the device and playing them back in a more capable browser with a full debugger. And we've added automatic support for HTML5 manifests to Cappuccino which will make installing the apps on the home screen a breeze.
You'll notice that all of these features also make Cappuccino better on the desktop web. Rather than focus on once device from one company, we're continuing to improve Cappuccino across the board. This has been and will continue to be our strategy moving forward. Right now, I think everyone else is playing catch up. Whether that's trying to match the beauty of our Aristo theme, trying to rush out a visual interface tool, or even just trying to keep up with the extremely fast growth of our great community: we're one of the most followed and forked projects on Github.
Time to get back to work. Hope that helps clear up where we think we are, and where we're heading.
-Ross
I don't believe that the iPad, in the short term, is a game changer. So long as it remains the only viable touchscreen tablet device, people writing apps for it should really be asking themselves how to make the best app possible, and right now that's using Cocoa Touch. Want to do something with motion events? Or the user's photo library? Want to send an email through iPad? The list of functionality that Apple has not (and probably will not) expose to the web continues to grow.
On the other hand, I think there probably will be quality competition, and thats when things are going to get interesting. The web will almost certainly be a strong part of that competition, which will benefit everyone. And at that point, one of the huge advantages Cappuccino will have is offering the tens of thousands of existing Cocoa Touch developers a clear way to transition to new platforms and even share code and resources across those platforms.
We've already been investigating the iPad ecosystem, and have a lot of great work in the pipeline, which we talked about at JSConf. The ability to use the objective-j debugging tools alone can double your productivity. We've also built a tool for recording user sessions on the device and playing them back in a more capable browser with a full debugger. And we've added automatic support for HTML5 manifests to Cappuccino which will make installing the apps on the home screen a breeze.
You'll notice that all of these features also make Cappuccino better on the desktop web. Rather than focus on once device from one company, we're continuing to improve Cappuccino across the board. This has been and will continue to be our strategy moving forward. Right now, I think everyone else is playing catch up. Whether that's trying to match the beauty of our Aristo theme, trying to rush out a visual interface tool, or even just trying to keep up with the extremely fast growth of our great community: we're one of the most followed and forked projects on Github.
Time to get back to work. Hope that helps clear up where we think we are, and where we're heading.
-Ross
Bob Spryn
Apr 20, 2010, 10:32:19 PM4/20/10
to Cappuccino & Objective-J
Thanks for the thoughts Ross. All good stuff.
Best,
Bob
On Apr 20, 12:51 pm, Ross Boucher <rbouc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A few things to keep in mind: the touch API is exposed at the javascript level. Bringing it up to the Cappuccino level (or the sproutcore level) is really almost no work at all. In fact, I've already written the code. It should be making its way into the master branch sometime this week.
>
> I don't believe that the iPad, in the short term, is a game changer. So long as it remains the only viable touchscreen tablet device, people writing apps for it should really be asking themselves how to make the best app possible, and right now that's using Cocoa Touch. Want to do something with motion events? Or the user's photo library? Want to send an email through iPad? The list of functionality that Apple has not (and probably will not) expose to the web continues to grow.
>
> On the other hand, I think there probably will be quality competition, and thats when things are going to get interesting. The web will almost certainly be a strong part of that competition, which will benefit everyone. And at that point, one of the huge advantages Cappuccino will have is offering the tens of thousands of existing Cocoa Touch developers a clear way to transition to new platforms and even share code and resources across those platforms.
>
> We've already been investigating the iPad ecosystem, and have a lot of great work in the pipeline, which we talked about at JSConf. The ability to use the objective-j debugging tools alone can double your productivity. We've also built a tool for recording user sessions on the device and playing them back in a more capable browser with a full debugger. And we've added automatic support for HTML5 manifests to Cappuccino which will make installing the apps on the home screen a breeze.
>
> You'll notice that all of these features also make Cappuccino better on the desktop web. Rather than focus on once device from one company, we're continuing to improve Cappuccino across the board. This has been and will continue to be our strategy moving forward. Right now, I think everyone else is playing catch up. Whether that's trying to match the beauty of our Aristo theme, trying to rush out a visual interface tool, or even just trying to keep up with the extremely fast growth of our great community: we're one of the most followed and forked projects on Github.
>
> Time to get back to work. Hope that helps clear up where we think we are, and where we're heading.
>
> -Ross
>
> On Apr 19, 2010, at 2:28 PM, Bob Spryn wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Those guys are doing some pretty cool stuff. The touch api is just
> > fantastic looking... a game changer I think. Cappuccino looking to
> > keep pace with the touch stuff?
>
> > Love Cappuccino, wondering if the bigger sproutcore team might make it
> > hard to keep the same pace.
>
> > Thoughts?
>
> > Bob
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cappuccino & Objective-J" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to objec...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to objectivej+...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/objectivej?hl=en.
Best,
Bob
On Apr 20, 12:51 pm, Ross Boucher <rbouc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A few things to keep in mind: the touch API is exposed at the javascript level. Bringing it up to the Cappuccino level (or the sproutcore level) is really almost no work at all. In fact, I've already written the code. It should be making its way into the master branch sometime this week.
>
> I don't believe that the iPad, in the short term, is a game changer. So long as it remains the only viable touchscreen tablet device, people writing apps for it should really be asking themselves how to make the best app possible, and right now that's using Cocoa Touch. Want to do something with motion events? Or the user's photo library? Want to send an email through iPad? The list of functionality that Apple has not (and probably will not) expose to the web continues to grow.
>
> On the other hand, I think there probably will be quality competition, and thats when things are going to get interesting. The web will almost certainly be a strong part of that competition, which will benefit everyone. And at that point, one of the huge advantages Cappuccino will have is offering the tens of thousands of existing Cocoa Touch developers a clear way to transition to new platforms and even share code and resources across those platforms.
>
> We've already been investigating the iPad ecosystem, and have a lot of great work in the pipeline, which we talked about at JSConf. The ability to use the objective-j debugging tools alone can double your productivity. We've also built a tool for recording user sessions on the device and playing them back in a more capable browser with a full debugger. And we've added automatic support for HTML5 manifests to Cappuccino which will make installing the apps on the home screen a breeze.
>
> You'll notice that all of these features also make Cappuccino better on the desktop web. Rather than focus on once device from one company, we're continuing to improve Cappuccino across the board. This has been and will continue to be our strategy moving forward. Right now, I think everyone else is playing catch up. Whether that's trying to match the beauty of our Aristo theme, trying to rush out a visual interface tool, or even just trying to keep up with the extremely fast growth of our great community: we're one of the most followed and forked projects on Github.
>
> Time to get back to work. Hope that helps clear up where we think we are, and where we're heading.
>
> -Ross
>
> On Apr 19, 2010, at 2:28 PM, Bob Spryn wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Those guys are doing some pretty cool stuff. The touch api is just
> > fantastic looking... a game changer I think. Cappuccino looking to
> > keep pace with the touch stuff?
>
> > Love Cappuccino, wondering if the bigger sproutcore team might make it
> > hard to keep the same pace.
>
> > Thoughts?
>
> > Bob
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cappuccino & Objective-J" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to objec...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to objectivej+...@googlegroups.com.
>
> --
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> --
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Bob Spryn
Apr 20, 2010, 10:40:06 PM4/20/10
to Cappuccino & Objective-J
I would disagree on one point though, I believe the iPad will be a
game changer. :) But maybe you meant real short term. It'll take a
couple years for it to have the same impact the iPhone did.
I think exposing the touch event api's that webkit has in a Obj-J
fashion would be awesome. At the very least then we can more easily
build the scrolling panels ala the sproutcore demo and the gmail ipad
UI.
Thanks again,
Bob
game changer. :) But maybe you meant real short term. It'll take a
couple years for it to have the same impact the iPhone did.
I think exposing the touch event api's that webkit has in a Obj-J
fashion would be awesome. At the very least then we can more easily
build the scrolling panels ala the sproutcore demo and the gmail ipad
UI.
Thanks again,
Bob
Ross Boucher
Apr 20, 2010, 10:42:14 PM4/20/10
to objec...@googlegroups.com
I'm not necessarily saying anything about the iPad's success or failure, just that I don't believe it will be tied at all to the web, unless a viable competitor emerges. Apple hasn't been shy about telling the world that CocoaTouch should be the one true way to build apps.
Gerard Iglesias
Apr 21, 2010, 1:13:49 AM4/21/10
to objec...@googlegroups.com, objec...@googlegroups.com
It is certain that Apple want people exploit And valorize the platform itself, and that it could not fit our own agenda...
I am sorry to think that it is not a bad thing and that cross platform application tend to go the low common features set way
Gerard
Envoyé de mon iPhone
I am sorry to think that it is not a bad thing and that cross platform application tend to go the low common features set way
Gerard
Envoyé de mon iPhone
Bob Spryn
Apr 21, 2010, 2:41:08 AM4/21/10
to Cappuccino & Objective-J
I wouldn't agree with that either. Sproutcore is essentially working
from inside of Apple, and Apple has been advancing webkit like crazy.
I would like to think that Objective-C apps are a bit of a stopgap
until the native stuff can catch up in performance. Obviously there
are a bunch of things that can only be produced (well) as a native app
like 3d games, etc. But there's plenty that be done via the web, and
hopefully more to come.
Remember Steve didn't originally lean towards the native SDK. There
has to be some of that still floating around there.
I think the iPad is already spurring a new category of device, as many
are purported to be following.
from inside of Apple, and Apple has been advancing webkit like crazy.
I would like to think that Objective-C apps are a bit of a stopgap
until the native stuff can catch up in performance. Obviously there
are a bunch of things that can only be produced (well) as a native app
like 3d games, etc. But there's plenty that be done via the web, and
hopefully more to come.
Remember Steve didn't originally lean towards the native SDK. There
has to be some of that still floating around there.
I think the iPad is already spurring a new category of device, as many
are purported to be following.
Randy Luecke
Apr 21, 2010, 11:42:34 AM4/21/10
to Cappuccino & Objective-J
You'll notice that the touch part of webkit is all very proprietary.
Lets not give Apple too much credit for WebKit.
Lets not give Apple too much credit for WebKit.
Bob Spryn
Apr 21, 2010, 4:08:18 PM4/21/10
to Cappuccino & Objective-J
The proprietary -webkit pieces don't explain to me why we shouldn't
give Apple some credit for webkit. Aren't those, in fact, how webkit
pushes the envelope while not breaking standards compliance?
Also keep in mind that Javascript is one of the approved 'native'
languages for writing iPhone applications.
give Apple some credit for webkit. Aren't those, in fact, how webkit
pushes the envelope while not breaking standards compliance?
Also keep in mind that Javascript is one of the approved 'native'
languages for writing iPhone applications.
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