http://gumbyframework.com/
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Aaauuugh! More cool stuff to absorb! Thanks for these references, folks. Pure sure looks like it could save some time, and the grid and skinning generators it links to are awesome.
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Wow, a very sweeping statement!
If you are going to be so critical of someone else's work, I suggest you provide more substance to your argument and demonstrate your css mastery with examples of how you would approach things - this may give a little weight to your argument, because at present you sound like a troll.
�
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On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 5:16 PM, GUERAS Arnaud <arna...@gmail.com> wrote:
Cascade Framework is not a good framework, because it has been made by a people who doesn't have a good skill in CSS, it's very obvious to see that :�A small example :�
/* micro clearfix (using technique from http://nicolasgallagher.com/micro-clearfix-hack) */
figcaption,div:after,main:after,article:after,aside:after,details:after,figcaption:after,figure:after,footer:after,header:after,hgroup:after,nav:after,section:after,pre:after,.nav:after,.nav a:after,.width-fill:after,.width-fit img:after,blockquote small:after,address:after,.nav ul:after,.nav li:after {
� � clear:both;
}
div:before,div:after,main:before,main:after,article:before,article:after,aside:before,aside:after,details:before,details:after,figcaption:before,figcaption:after,figure:before,figure:after,footer:before,footer:after,header:before,header:after,hgroup:before,hgroup:after,nav:before,nav:after,section:before,section:after,pre:before,pre:after,.nav:before,.nav:after,.nav a:before,.nav a:after,.width-fill:before,.width-fill:after,.width-fit img:before,.width-fit img:after,blockquote small:before,blockquote small:after,address:before,address:after,.nav ul:before,.nav ul:after,.nav li:before,.nav li:after {
� � content:" "; display:table;}
Here the clearfix is added on EVERY BLOCK ELEMENT, it's completely crazy, by using this, you SLOW the browser when rendering CSS because he render :after on all block elements and some link elements.
Sometime it's bery usefull to not have the clearfix on a DIV because we want to use the margin collapse or we want to use the fact that the container doesn't contains it's floatted children, etc...
The Cascade Framework, is only a simple COPY PASTE of everything that we can found on the internet without any knowledge of what things does
Le mercredi 20 novembre 2013 04:27:43 UTC+1, John Slegers a �crit�:You might want to check out a framework I created a while ago :�Cascade Framework.
Cascade Framework is based on OOCSS, is highly modular, is very lightweight and has a total�separation of decorative styles and structural styles.
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On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Arnaud Guéras <arna...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll be back with a lot of example that show that the fact to add a clearfix or activate the haslayout (for IE) on every block element on a page is not a good thing
I can't let a framework the this kind of thing. Just activate the clearfix/haslayout (for IE) only if you need it, not everywhere.
This clearfix activate a pseudo Block Formatting context on all block element, it's not a good thing because :
It breaks the margin-collapse : http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/box.html#collapsing-margins
It breaks the fact a container of floated element doesn't contains it's element (it has a zero height if all it's children are floated)
<div class="hello">
<div class="floated">1</div>
<div class="floated">2</div>
</div>
.floated {
float:left;
}
.hello height is zero in this example
It can be usefull if you want to use this usage of the box (sorry I'm french and my english is not good).
I just want the author of cascade framework look a little bit more at this.
Le 20/11/13 07:21, Dan Humphrey a écrit :
Wow, a very sweeping statement!If you are going to be so critical of someone else's work, I suggest you provide more substance to your argument and demonstrate your css mastery with examples of how you would approach things - this may give a little weight to your argument, because at present you sound like a troll.
—
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On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 5:16 PM, GUERAS Arnaud <arna...@gmail.com> wrote:
Cascade Framework is not a good framework, because it has been made by a people who doesn't have a good skill in CSS, it's very obvious to see that :
A small example :
/* micro clearfix (using technique from http://nicolasgallagher.com/micro-clearfix-hack) */figcaption,div:after,main:after,article:after,aside:after,details:after,figcaption:after,figure:after,footer:after,header:after,hgroup:after,nav:after,section:after,pre:after,.nav:after,.nav a:after,.width-fill:after,.width-fit img:after,blockquote small:after,address:after,.nav ul:after,.nav li:after {
clear:both;}div:before,div:after,main:before,main:after,article:before,article:after,aside:before,aside:after,details:before,details:after,figcaption:before,figcaption:after,figure:before,figure:after,footer:before,footer:after,header:before,header:after,hgroup:before,hgroup:after,nav:before,nav:after,section:before,section:after,pre:before,pre:after,.nav:before,.nav:after,.nav a:before,.nav a:after,.width-fill:before,.width-fill:after,.width-fit img:before,.width-fit img:after,blockquote small:before,blockquote small:after,address:before,address:after,.nav ul:before,.nav ul:after,.nav li:before,.nav li:after {
content:" "; display:table;}
Here the clearfix is added on EVERY BLOCK ELEMENT, it's completely crazy, by using this, you SLOW the browser when rendering CSS because he render :after on all block elements and some link elements.
Sometime it's bery usefull to not have the clearfix on a DIV because we want to use the margin collapse or we want to use the fact that the container doesn't contains it's floatted children, etc...The Cascade Framework, is only a simple COPY PASTE of everything that we can found on the internet without any knowledge of what things does
Le mercredi 20 novembre 2013 04:27:43 UTC+1, John Slegers a écrit :You might want to check out a framework I created a while ago : Cascade Framework.Cascade Framework is based on OOCSS, is highly modular, is very lightweight and has a total separation of decorative styles and structural styles.
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Here the clearfix is added on EVERY BLOCK ELEMENT, it's completely crazy, by using this, you SLOW the browser when rendering CSS because he render :after on all block elements and some link elements.
Your English is fine - better than my French.
Maybe you don't mean it to come across this way, but your first post was very attacking.
I don't know the author of the framework, or use the framework in question, but in general, I find people more receptive of criticism and willing to take advice with a little more humility.��
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On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Arnaud Gu�ras <arna...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll be back with a lot of example that show that the fact to add a clearfix or activate the haslayout (for IE) on every block element on a page is not a good thing
I can't let a framework the this kind of thing. Just activate the clearfix/haslayout (for IE) only if you need it, not everywhere.
This clearfix activate a pseudo Block Formatting context on all block element, it's not a good thing because :
It breaks the margin-collapse : http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/box.html#collapsing-margins
It breaks the fact a container of floated element doesn't contains it's element (it has a zero height if all it's children are floated)
<div class="hello">
��� <div class="floated">1</div>
�� <div class="floated">2</div>
</div>
.floated {
�� float:left;
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 5:16 PM, GUERAS Arnaud <arna...@gmail.com> wrote:Here the clearfix is added on EVERY BLOCK ELEMENT, it's completely crazy, by using this, you SLOW the browser when rendering CSS because he render :after on all block elements and some link elements.I wonder how much traffic a site needs to get before the performance difference you claim would actually be noticeable...I've been using Cascade Framework on a couple of sites and haven't noticed any slowness.
Perhaps you missed the line "check out a framework I created" in John's post here...I agree with Dan, your post was very attacking. It would have been good for your post to be less harsh in any case, but especially in a direct response to the author of the framework.
Please do let us all know in more detail how you think the framework could be improved -- I'm all for people expressing their opinions openly -- but please try to do so in a way that doesn't come off as a personal attack on the framework's author.
On 11/20/13 2:14 AM, Dan Humphrey wrote:
Your English is fine - better than my French.
Maybe you don't mean it to come across this way, but your first post was very attacking.
I don't know the author of the framework, or use the framework in question, but in general, I find people more receptive of criticism and willing to take advice with a little more humility.
—
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On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Arnaud Guéras <arna...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll be back with a lot of example that show that the fact to add a clearfix or activate the haslayout (for IE) on every block element on a page is not a good thing
I can't let a framework the this kind of thing. Just activate the clearfix/haslayout (for IE) only if you need it, not everywhere.
This clearfix activate a pseudo Block Formatting context on all block element, it's not a good thing because :
It breaks the margin-collapse : http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/box.html#collapsing-margins
It breaks the fact a container of floated element doesn't contains it's element (it has a zero height if all it's children are floated)
<div class="hello">
<div class="floated">1</div>
<div class="floated">2</div>
</div>
.floated {
float:left;
}
.hello height is zero in this example
It can be usefull if you want to use this usage of the box (sorry I'm french and my english is not good).
I just want the author of cascade framework look a little bit more at this.
--
I wonder how much traffic a site needs to get before the performance difference you claim would actually be noticeable...I've been using Cascade Framework on a couple of sites and haven't noticed any slowness.
Can you clarify this statement "how much traffic a site needs to get before the performance difference you claim would actually be noticeable".I guess I'm trying to get a sense of whether the performance disadvantages of having haslayout activated for every block-level element would ever matter for a small to medium sized website, which are generally the websites I deal with, or whether it would only matter for large websites like Facebook, Microsoft, NYTimes and other major newspapers, etc.
The main reasons Microsoft gives for the fact that not all elements have a layout by default are “performance and simplicity.” If all elements had a layout by default, a detrimental effect on performance and memory usage would result.(source: http://reference.sitepoint.com/css/haslayout)
I believe the widths are also adjusted down for IE7 to take into account border-box not working.
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Matthew Browne <mbro...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi John, et al.,
I stand by what I've said, but I do think GUERAS Arnaud brought up an important issue with regard to Cascade Framework.
I just found some relevant background on the hasLayout property here:
The main reasons Microsoft gives for the fact that not all elements have a layout by default are �performance and simplicity.� If all elements had a layout by default, a detrimental effect on performance and memory usage would result.
(source: http://reference.sitepoint.com/css/haslayout)
GUERAS, I hope the messages about your criticism being a bit harsh didn't discourage you from sharing the examples you mentioned - I meant only to encourage a respectful tone - but in any case it seems you're right that if optimal rendering performance is a high priority, then Cascade Framework's global clearfix approach may be problematic.
The difference in rendering performance is very small as far as I can tell, but I'm sure for some sites those extra milliseconds could be important.
John, I wonder if it might be useful to have the global clearfix be an optional feature of the framework. That might mean that your "semantic grid" feature would only be possible with the global clearfix version, I'm not sure, but as far as the rest of the framework is concerned it seems like the need for a global clearfix could be easily avoided by introducing a "row" class, which would do the clearfix. So for example, instead of the grid classes the way you have them now, in the non-global-clearfix version it could be something like this:
<div class="row">
��� <div class="col width-1of2">left</div>
��� <div class="col width-1of2">right</div>
</div>
I posted earlier with more details about how this could be accomplished:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/object-oriented-css/f8a6IgwSk1A/pAtQMM2ww8AJ
I coded that up before I checked out the new version of the OOCSS framework...now that I checked that out I see it's very similar. The only thing I don't understand is that in the new version of OOCSS, it talks about using the .lastCol class for compatibility with IE7, and yet border-box sizing is used throughout the new OOCSS which would seem to make support for IE7 questionable across the whole framework...IE7 has a very small market share now (less than 2%) but it would be nice to know that entire layouts wouldn't be completely broken due to columns that are slightly too wide being forced to the next line. Probably a subject for another post.
Anyhow, if anyone has further comments or suggestions about this, I'd be interested to hear them and I imagine John would be too.
On 11/20/13 9:17 AM, Matthew Browne wrote:
Can you clarify this statement "how much traffic a site needs to get before the performance difference you claim would actually be noticeable".I guess I'm trying to get a sense of whether the performance disadvantages of having haslayout activated for every block-level element would ever matter for a small to medium sized website, which are generally the websites I deal with, or whether it would only matter for large websites like Facebook, Microsoft, NYTimes and other major newspapers, etc.
I framed the question that way because if a site is loading quickly to begin with, the very slight delay in rendering time isn't likely to make much of a difference, whereas if you're already struggling with load times (e.g. on a very high-traffic site), every millisecond would be more important. But now that I think about it, I realize that there are some less trafficked websites for which rendering time might also be critically important (e.g. Javascript-heavy apps with a longer initial load time).
It sounds like Arnaud has some valid criticisms and I'd like to hear them...I'm not suggesting that anyone's opinion should be suppressed, just that we should stick to the facts and criticisms of the techniques themselves, and avoiding assumptions about the author personally - it seems like John put a lot of thought into the framework and was not careless about it at all, even if mistakes were made. But I don't mean to be overly touchy about this; it was more of a cautionary note.
On 11/20/13 9:09 AM, Lars Olof Berg (Gmail) wrote:
20 nov 2013 kl. 13:52 skrev Matthew Browne <mbro...@gmail.com>:
I wonder how much traffic a site needs to get before the performance difference you claim would actually be noticeable...I've been using Cascade Framework on a couple of sites and haven't noticed any slowness.
I don't think this is performance regarding _traffic_, it's more likely to be performance regarding _rendering_ in the browser.
As a related side note: yesterday I came across an interesting article written by Paul Lewis�and�Paul Irish covering how browsers renders the page�http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/speed/high-performance-animations/�and which CSS properties that are cheap respectively expensive.
-- lars olof
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