Personal Programming on this list?

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Trygve Reenskaug

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May 16, 2018, 7:12:17 AM5/16/18
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Hi all,
As some of you know, I have been off on another branch of DCI that I have called Personal Programming (PP).  Its target group are non-professional programmers and its technical foundation is Smalltalk's universe of objects. I have for some time been conversing with a Smalltalk programmer abut DCI and its Smalltalk implementation. He now asks me if we should continue our discussion to this list:
I also find that the website fullOO is a treasure chest to find out more about DCI.

I think you gave me input enough to  start using DCI. I saw it actually 10 years ago and I now wonder why I did buy into the idea at that time.

In case I have more questions about  BabyIDE/BabySRE/DCI  should I
post them on  object-composition (at) googlegroups.com?

Personal Programming documentation is on my home page: PP - Personal Programming on http://folk.uio.no/trygver/
--Trygve

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The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate  to achieve a goal.
Trygve Reenskaug      
mailto: try...@ifi.uio.no
Morgedalsvn. 5A       
http://folk.uio.no/trygver/
N-0378 Oslo             
http://fullOO.info
Norway                     Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27

James O Coplien

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May 16, 2018, 8:33:03 AM5/16/18
to object-co...@googlegroups.com
I would strongly recommend starting a separate discussion list. This list is to discuss ways to program by composing objects, including DCI. I think you said that your approach has no source code, so it’s hard to think of it as programming, and I think that differentiates it enough to be on its own list.

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Trygve Reenskaug

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May 18, 2018, 5:15:10 AM5/18/18
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Hi Hannes,
This answer from the list moderator puts discussions about anything Smalltalk (including BabyIDE and BabySRE) out of scope for this list. Discussions about DCI are, however, welcome.
My Best
--Trygve

James O Coplien

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May 18, 2018, 6:02:47 AM5/18/18
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Trygve,

Den 18. maj 2018 kl. 11.14 skrev Trygve Reenskaug <try...@ifi.uio.no>:

This answer from the list moderator

This list is not moderated.

The list owner is Serge Beaumont.


puts discussions about anything Smalltalk (including BabyIDE and BabySRE) out of scope for this list.

That seems to be a long way from what I said.

Trygve Reenskaug

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May 19, 2018, 11:58:23 AM5/19/18
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On 18.05.2018 12:02, James O Coplien wrote:
Trygve,

Den 18. maj 2018 kl. 11.14 skrev Trygve Reenskaug <try...@ifi.uio.no>:

This answer from the list moderator

This list is not moderated.

The list owner is Serge Beaumont.
Formally, I'm sure you are right. In practice, you appear to have the final say as to what belongs to this list.



puts discussions about anything Smalltalk (including BabyIDE and BabySRE) out of scope for this list.

That seems to be a long way from what I said.
I don't think so. I'll explain why.   The question was: "In case I have more questions about  BabyIDE/BabySRE/DCI  should I post them on  object-composition (at) googlegroups.com?"
On 16.05.2018 14:32, James O Coplien wrote:
I would strongly recommend starting a separate discussion list. This list is to discuss ways to program by composing objects, including DCI.
We are in full agreement. {BabyIDE/BabySRE/DCI} are all about composing objects and DCI.

I think you said that your approach has no source code, so it’s hard to think of it as programming, and I think that differentiates it enough to be on its own list.
The way I read you, the source code is the real differentiator. I have chosen to call the alternatives "the von Neumann model" and the "Smalltalk model". In the von Neumann model, a source code is written in some language, compiled into a (binary) program that is loaded into an empty computer and executed until it stops. Programmers can reason about the source code because it, in some sense, tells a complete story. In the Smalltalk model, there exists a universe of continuously executing objects. Programming is to muster and augment these objects and to compose the flow of messages on the fly. Some of the code that drives the execution is new and some of it is preexisting. The code is fragmented and distributed; there is no source code in closed form as in the von Neumann model.

I read you as you exclude discussions about the Smalltalk model from this list.

----------------------------------------------------------------

{BabyIDE/BabySRE/DCI} build on the Smalltalk model. They reify my original DCI paradigm that I should probably call DCI(1). The DCI discussed on this list is different in that it is based on the von Neumen model. In DCI(1), the Data are stand-alone objects that are only known by their identities and their provided interfaces. Their implementations are hidden behind their encapsulation boundaries. Data objects can be developed separately because they are stand-alone having no knowledge of how they will be used. A Data object can be an instance of a class or it can be implemented in  some other way.

The latter characteristic is important when I extend my domain to the world outside the computer.  (Kelly, TED talk,  2008) was contemplating the next 5000 days of the Web: "...that's all these computers, all these handhelds, all these cell phones, all these laptops, all these servers -- basically what we're getting out of all these connections is we're getting one machine. If there is only one machine, and our little handhelds and devices are actually just little windows into those machines, but that we're basically constructing a single, global machine." The Smalltalk model is a model of this single, global machine and DCI has much to say about instructing our little window into it.

The IoT is exploding. Even our local newspapers have long and fairly technical articles about smart homes, smart cities, smart cars...   There is a high commercial pressure for launching new solutions quickly. The complexity of the emerging single, global machine is unprecedented. Worse is better. With its billions of unreliable parts connected in unknown ways, safety and security will challenge both theoreticians and practitioners for many years to come. (Jim, we have discussed one of the challenges; how to handle the threats from an object that plays multiple roles in multiple Contexts).

I target {BabyIDE/BabySRE/DCI} at giving people control their of their window into the single, global machine.


James O Coplien

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May 19, 2018, 12:03:27 PM5/19/18
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Den 19. maj 2018 kl. 17.58 skrev Trygve Reenskaug <try...@ifi.uio.no>:

I read you as you exclude discussions about the Smalltalk model from this list. 

Read me as you like, but it is not what I said, not what I choose to infer, and is a statement I view as beside the point. You are welcome to act or not on what you felt you read, and to support it with any rationalization you choose.

Greg Young

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May 19, 2018, 12:28:37 PM5/19/18
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Have you considered that this is the main reason that DCI is not moving towards the mainstream? You are now attacking Trygve?


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Trygve Reenskaug

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May 19, 2018, 12:56:05 PM5/19/18
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No, no, no. I'm not attacking anybody or anything. I'm merely trying to understand the differences between trygve and BabyIDE. Each has its own value. They have different target audiences and different target computers. If trygve is not moving towards mainstream, it would be due to lack of manpower to do the necessary work. The foundation is there for anybody who wants to  build on it. I'm 87 and have taken the liberty of following my original DCI dream. I can't see how that in any way can hinder the success of trygve and I can't see why I should be blamed for anything.
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Greg Young

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May 19, 2018, 12:58:12 PM5/19/18
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i did not imply that you were.I apologize if you read it that way.

On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 11:56 PM, Trygve Reenskaug <try...@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
No, no, no. I'm not attacking anybody or anything. I'm merely trying to understand the differences between trygve and BabyIDE. Each has its own value. They have different target audiences and different target computers. If trygve is not moving towards mainstream, it would be due to lack of manpower to do the necessary work. The foundation is there for anybody who wants to  build on it. I'm 87 and have taken the liberty of following my original DCI dream. I can't see how that in any way can hinder the success of trygve and I can't see why I should be blamed for anything.


On 19.05.2018 18:28, Greg Young wrote:
Have you considered that this is the main reason that DCI is not moving towards the mainstream? You are now attacking Trygve?

On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 11:03 PM, James O Coplien <jcop...@gmail.com> wrote:


Den 19. maj 2018 kl. 17.58 skrev Trygve Reenskaug <try...@ifi.uio.no>:

I read you as you exclude discussions about the Smalltalk model from this list. 

Read me as you like, but it is not what I said, not what I choose to infer, and is a statement I view as beside the point. You are welcome to act or not on what you felt you read, and to support it with any rationalization you choose.
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The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate  to achieve a goal.
Trygve Reenskaug      
mailto: try...@ifi.uio.no


Morgedalsvn. 5A       
http://folk.uio.no/trygver/
N-0378 Oslo             
http://fullOO.info
Norway                     Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27

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Matthew Browne

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May 20, 2018, 12:41:26 PM5/20/18
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Trygve, just to make it extra clear, Greg's comment was directed at Cope.

Sent from my Android phone

On Sat, May 19, 2018, 12:58 PM Greg Young <gregor...@gmail.com> wrote:
i did not imply that you were.I apologize if you read it that way.
On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 11:56 PM, Trygve Reenskaug <try...@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
No, no, no. I'm not attacking anybody or anything. I'm merely trying to understand the differences between trygve and BabyIDE. Each has its own value. They have different target audiences and different target computers. If trygve is not moving towards mainstream, it would be due to lack of manpower to do the necessary work. The foundation is there for anybody who wants to  build on it. I'm 87 and have taken the liberty of following my original DCI dream. I can't see how that in any way can hinder the success of trygve and I can't see why I should be blamed for anything.


On 19.05.2018 18:28, Greg Young wrote:
Have you considered that this is the main reason that DCI is not moving towards the mainstream? You are now attacking Trygve?

On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 11:03 PM, James O Coplien <jcop...@gmail.com> wrote:


Den 19. maj 2018 kl. 17.58 skrev Trygve Reenskaug <try...@ifi.uio.no>:

I read you as you exclude discussions about the Smalltalk model from this list. 

Read me as you like, but it is not what I said, not what I choose to infer, and is a statement I view as beside the point. You are welcome to act or not on what you felt you read, and to support it with any rationalization you choose.
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The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate  to achieve a goal.
Trygve Reenskaug      
mailto: try...@ifi.uio.no
Morgedalsvn. 5A       
http://folk.uio.no/trygver/
N-0378 Oslo             
http://fullOO.info
Norway                     Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27

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