Website Pricing (Off Topic - But need help)

[Michael Green]

Hi

I'm freelance and in the past have worked with my church getting their site looked at and helping build a site for a group that is part of my church so haven't normally charged and just done it on a experience basis.

However.....

I've been approached and asked to help a print media company in Auckland who wants to update their site http://www.wentforthprint.co.nz/ yes it is quite old and from looking at the code looks to be very extensive and i'm sure using my limited css and php knowledge i could cut that down.

On to the important stuff...

I was also asked to give them an estimate to produce a similar sized site but with a bit more information. I was thinking something like that might cost around $900 to $1000 but TBH i am unsure.

Just wondering if anyone out there has any ideas at the price i'd be looking to suggest to them.

--
Cheers

Michael Green

Home: (09) 4184709
Cell: (021) 1189201
2/173 Mokoia Rd
Birkenhead
Auckland

[Hamish Campbell]

Break down the build process into tasks. Make sure you include ample
time for 'project management' (ie talking to the client), testing,
configuration and making changes at the clients request. The first
time I did this I naively thought I'd spend more time coding than
doing all the other related project tasks.

Once you think you've got a reasonable looking time budget for the
whole process, multiply everything by 1.5. Especially when you're
starting out, everything takes longer than expected and paying clients
expect more attention than charity work.

Then, figure how much you think you should get paid per hour, add GST
and there is your number.

The other thing I'd say is be VERY clear to the client on what you are
delivering. Does it include setup with the host (talking to hosts and
trying to get configurations sorted can take a chunk of time)? Does it
include a warranty period? This is a good idea, as then you have a
clear cut off point where further issues are the client's
responsibilities.

Hope this helps,
Hamish

On Nov 24, 12:25 pm, "Michael Green" <mmmgg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm freelance and in the past have worked with my church getting their site
> looked at and helping build a site for a group that is part of my church so
> haven't normally charged and just done it on a experience basis.
>
> However.....
>
> I've been approached and asked to help a print media company in Auckland who

> wants to update their sitehttp://www.wentforthprint.co.nz/yes it is quite

[Don Gould]

Hamish Campbell wrote:
> Hope this helps,
> Hamish

Couldn't have said it better if I tried... so I won't.

I don't assume MG knows how to cost his time to come up with an hourly
rate, so we'll wait for him to come back and tell us.

I'm also going to ring his customer with a quote for my services in the
morning... when I'm done, the customer will know what stuff is worth
and be happy with the quote MG gives them :) :) :)

Cheers Don

[Michael Green]

HAHA... Cheers Don and Hamish. i've actually just been preparing for exams so haven't had a chance to read. i was thinking of something like $17-20/hr but TBH like i said before i'm unsure. i should point out that as far as i know the contact information on that site is out of date!!

[Harvey Kane]

I remember when I started out, I would charge $20 per hour. And almost
everybody I spoke to in the industry would give me a massive lecture
about this. Now that my hair is a bit greyer, it's my turn.

So here goes.

Firstly, I totally understand why you want to price cheap - maybe you
are unsure of your abilities, or are aiming to please, or want to do
them a favour, or don't want to risk having your price rejected. There
are lots of reasons for pricing cheap.

Ultimately, pricing too cheaply helps nobody.

It's bad for the industry - I don't want to have to compete against
people charging $17-$20 per hour and I shouldn't have to. There is
enough demand for web developers that you can charge a bit more. Telecom
never drops their prices unless Vodafone does it (and vice versa). They
aren't fools, so why aren't web developers doing the same?

Next, it's bad for the client. They get a false expectation that the job
can be done for $X, when actually it's not a true indication of it's
value. If the job takes longer than you planned (which always happens),
then you will be cutting corners to get the job finished, which doesn't
help them. If you allow yourself a bit of breathing room, you can absorb
a certain amount of overage, and give them good service. If you ask for
more money, this is likely to be an issue.

It's bad for you - you end up being the world's busiest poor man. If the
job goes perfectly, you stand to make marginally more than a bus driver
or waiter. If the job takes longer than expected, you earn less than an
outsourced call centre worker in Bangalore but without the holiday pay.

But the worst aspect is that you build a client base who are
cost-conscious. What happens in a years time when you want to put your
prices up to something more standard like $50 or $100 or $150? You will
be forced to lose your client base who can no longer afford you, or
forced to keep doing work for them forever at the cheaper rate.
Cost-conscious clients will also take more of your time to manage,
require more in-depth quotes, and will haggle every time you give them a
price. If something goes wrong, they will make you fix it in your own
time, as they just don't have any extra money to extend the project
(regardless of what the problem is or whose fault it is). Attracting the
wrong clients early on will cripple your businness before it even gets
moving.

So, here's a better idea.

If you want to do the right thing for the client, charge them a fair
price. Ultimately if their business model doesn't support a
professionally designed website, and isn't at some stage going to
generate enough income to cover the costs, then what's the point?
(charities and churches an exception to this rule of course)

If you aren't sure of your skills, or how much to charge, then get some
help. If you quote a fair market price for the work as suggested, there
will be plenty of room in the budget to hire an experienced freelancer
to help out.

So for example (without looking at the site) - quote $2000 instead of
$1000. If they accept, pay a freelancer for 5 x 1 hour sessions to help
you get the site done. They won't be doing any coding, they will be
advising you on what to do next as the project progresses and making
sure you aren't going off on some wild tangent or getting lost in extra
requests from the client. The hard part of the job is managing the
project/client, and once you have been in business for a while you learn
some important tricks.
The client gets a better site / better managed project due to the input
of the more experienced freelancer. They don't get an unfair perception
of what it costs to get web development done. You learn a whole lot in
the process and gain confidence, and get a new industry contact. And
more importantly ,there is less risk of losing money on the job.

My 2c, having made the mistake of charging too little early on and still
dealing with the problems it causes.

Harvey.

Michael Green wrote:
> HAHA... Cheers Don and Hamish. i've actually just been preparing for
> exams so haven't had a chance to read. i was thinking of something
> like $17-20/hr but TBH like i said before i'm unsure. i should point
> out that as far as i know the contact information on that site is out
> of date!!

--

Harvey Kane

Phone. +649 950 4133
Mobile. +6421 811 951
Email. har...@harveykane.com

[Julian Melville]

> So here goes.

Very nicely said, Harvey. I wish you could mark emails as "sticky" like
you can forum posts, because that deserves to stay at the top.

Julian.

[Jochen Daum]

We could always use whois or the companies office.

HTH, Jochen

[Paul Bennett]

Great response Julian.

I currently charge $55 / hour (8 years professional experience) and fixed-price all my work.I also increase my hourly rate by around $5 every 12 months to cover inflation etc.

No one has ever complained about the hourly rate. I've had very few projects rejected on the basis of cost.

On a similar note, I priced development and hosting for a small organisation a while ago. I met with the client and he said something along the liners of:

"The hosting cost seems a bit high. We had some low cost hosting through a company in the Philippines before, but when we rang them for support they didn't speak English and couldn't help us....."

Hilarious to see in someone's face the exact moment when the "you get what you pay for" penny finally drops :)

Paul

[Kent Parker]

I would contend, rather than take the double-the-hourly-rate option
(which goes against normal market practice in terms of startups). I
would put time into nailing the specs for the job (in which case you
would end up with maybe doubling the hourly rate when you realise it
will take twice as long).

I would include in your costing for the site the following:
system analysis - this is where you put the client requirements into
data structure and data flow form and includes the phone calls and
meetings that you will have
browser compatibility - IE can take half a day or more for a single
site simply for fixes and hacks. Find out if Safari will be important
for the site.
changes in requirements - most clients change something (add 5-15%)
followup - most clients will require some follow up, because there
will always be things that happen on the live site that you can't
predict
maintenance - set a date at which your follow up ends (say 21 days
following completion of site) and offer maintenance at a hourly or
monthly rate (specify what this covers)

I recommend this approach because it helps you to be more specific in
your interactions with the client and is a better learning curve.

If you are working from home and new to the business there is nothing
wrong with working to a $17-20 hourly rate until you get confident.
Most sites are built at that kind of rate by young people working in
business firms which charge >$50 an hour because of all the
overheads. No one is going to pay you $50 an hour while you are still
learning.

[James McGlinn]

On 25/11/2008, at 11:45 AM, Kent Parker wrote:

> Most sites are built at that kind of rate by young people working in
> business firms which charge >$50 an hour because of all the
> overheads. No one is going to pay you $50 an hour while you are still
> learning.

I hear what Harvey's saying about the impact that setting
inappropriately low pricing expectations has on the industry, but Kent
has a good point too.

Depending what study you believe, there's anything from a 20:1 to 40:1
difference in productivity between novice and expert programmers. If
you recognise you're at the lower end of the scale that should be a
factor in determining your pricing.

Kind regards,
James McGlinn
__________________________________
CTO
Eventfinder Limited
Suite 106, Heards Building
2 Ruskin Street, Parnell, Auckland 1052
Phone: +649 365 2342
Mobile: +6421 633 234

james....@eventfinder.co.nz | www.eventfinder.co.nz

[Jochen Daum]

Hey James,

> Depending what study you believe, there's anything from a 20:1 to 40:1
> difference in productivity between novice and expert programmers. If
> you recognise you're at the lower end of the scale that should be a
> factor in determining your pricing.

That is much much bigger than I would have expected. Do you have any
links for such studies?

Kind Regards,

Jochen

[Stig Manning]

40:1 only applies to James.

He is a machine ;)

-Stig

[Jochen Daum]

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Stig Manning <st...@sdm.co.nz> wrote:
>
> 40:1 only applies to James.
>
> He is a machine ;)
>

I believe you, but others won't unless it can be proven

J

[James McGlinn]

Hi Jochen,

This publication claims a 10:1 difference in productivity amongst
programmers:

Sackman - Exploratory Experimental Studies Comparing Online and
Offline. Communications of the ACM pg 3-11, Jan 1968

Pragmatic Thinking & Learning by Andy Hunt (2008) cites that study,
claiming the gulf has widened since then. Hunt claims the 20:1 to
40:1 difference in productivity today.

Sorry I don't have any online references.

[Michael Green]

Cheers all who replied.

 

I think i'm heading towards this more as i am between novice and intermediate and this is most probably going to be a one off project until i get the cash together and do a course at uni, and start looking for a job.

 

To Harvey - I understand what your saying and agree that pricing to low at the start leads onto
difficulties at a future date. but i don't plan on staying in the freelance area for more than this project takes as i am looking for apprenticeships next year or payed work experience before taking on study.

[James McGlinn]

Hi Jochen,

> That is much much bigger than I would have expected. Do you have any
> links for such studies?

Here's an interesting online reference [2] for you to check out:

The original study that found huge variations in individual
programming productivity was conducted in the late 1960s by Sackman,
Erikson, and Grant (1968). They studied professional programmers with
an average of 7 years’ experience and found that the ratio of initial
coding time between the best and worst programmers was about 20 to 1;
the ratio of debugging times over 25 to 1; of program size 5 to 1; and
of program execution speed about 10 to 1. They found no relationship
between a programmer’s amount of experience and code quality or
productivity.

And a couple of quotes from [2]:

"A great lathe operator commands several times the wage of an average
lathe operator, but a great writer of software code is worth 10,000
times the price of an average software writer."
- Bill Gates

"90% of the code is written by 10% of the programmers."
- Robert C. Martin

[1] http://blogs.construx.com/blogs/stevemcc/archive/2008/03/27/productivity-variations-among-software-developers-and-teams-the-origin-of-quot-10x-quot.aspx
[2] http://www.devtopics.com/programmer-productivity-the-tenfinity-factor

[James McGlinn]

On 25/11/2008, at 12:48 PM, Stig Manning wrote:

> 40:1 only applies to James.
>
> He is a machine ;)

Haha classic - thanks for the vote of confidence Stig!

[Don Gould]

Harvey Kane wrote:
> I remember when I started out, I would charge $20 per hour. And almost
> everybody I spoke to in the industry would give me a massive lecture
> about this. Now that my hair is a bit greyer, it's my turn.
>
> So here goes.

MG, this post and the bunch that follow are a load of *commercial*
bollox!...

...BUT!, they're also right!

Your price should be based on a logical analysis and not "what's good
for everyone else".

This is what happens when you get a bunch of left wing, socialist Labour
unionists in a public mailing list! (opps... did I just see my self
being moderated off list?! ;) )

Ok being serious for a minute, you need to cost out your business
properly. As I hinted earlier, I suspect that you don't know how to do
that. Don't be ashamed! I didn't know how to either until my wife
showed me the documents from of CDC that told us how. It's common sense
logical stuff and yet I still didn't think to do it right, I felt like
such a dick!

I confess, prices for our company as still not right, but we do have a
better idea.

I can't remember were the instructions are or where to find them other
than ringing CDC and asking them. As you're in Akl and won't have a
clue who to talk to or even what to ask them, I'll give them a call
later this afternoon and report back to the list. I think this is stuff
that will help everyone (based on what I read today!)

I also think we should do a wiki topic on it now that we've got the new
wiki (Thanks James?)

MG you might like to help out with the wiki as a favour for us helping
you with this problem? hint hint?

Cheers Don

ps: who ever suggested whois... www.whitepages.co.nz ;)

[Don Gould]

Michael Green wrote:
> To Harvey - I understand what your saying and agree that pricing to low
> at the start leads onto
> difficulties at a future date. but i don't plan on staying in the
> freelance area for more than this project takes as i am looking for
> apprenticeships next year or payed work experience before taking on study.

With all due respect...

That position makes life harder for everyone else on this list.

I have to deal with customers every day telling me they can get a cheap
student and have to explain why this is bad. I loose that job and I end
up wasting much time. Now, the minute they mention 'student' I just
hand up.

I spend the other half of my day sorting out problems for customers who
have had a job done by a student how has moved on but left then hanging
with no support.

Often the person registers the domain name in their own name - take 3
unchargable hours for me to fix.

They host with a co and don't pass on details, password, user - normally
just can't fix this. Customer writes off hosting, we rehost and then
give them a control panel (if they are competent to drive it).

This leads me to two points for the list and you...

1. If you're going to do it at all, do it properly, please :)

2. We need to do more as a list to sub-contract these guys so they can
have some cash work but not stuff up the market at the same time. I
know some of you do this, and I know all of you care! :) I confess that
this is a lesson for me to... we don't do enough of it.

Cheers Don

[Jochen Daum]

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Don Gould <d...@bowenvale.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Michael Green wrote:
>> To Harvey - I understand what your saying and agree that pricing to low
>> at the start leads onto
>> difficulties at a future date. but i don't plan on staying in the
>> freelance area for more than this project takes as i am looking for
>> apprenticeships next year or payed work experience before taking on study.
>
> With all due respect...
>
> That position makes life harder for everyone else on this list.
>
> I have to deal with customers every day telling me they can get a cheap
> student and have to explain why this is bad. I loose that job and I end
> up wasting much time. Now, the minute they mention 'student' I just
> hand up.
>
> I spend the other half of my day sorting out problems for customers who
> have had a job done by a student how has moved on but left then hanging
> with no support.
>
> Often the person registers the domain name in their own name - take 3
> unchargable hours for me to fix.

Why is that unchargeable. Its not your fault?

>
> They host with a co and don't pass on details, password, user - normally
> just can't fix this. Customer writes off hosting, we rehost and then
> give them a control panel (if they are competent to drive it).
>
> This leads me to two points for the list and you...
>
> 1. If you're going to do it at all, do it properly, please :)
>
> 2. We need to do more as a list to sub-contract these guys so they can
> have some cash work but not stuff up the market at the same time. I
> know some of you do this, and I know all of you care! :) I confess that
> this is a lesson for me to... we don't do enough of it.
>

Quite simply put, some clients have developed up to the level of
hiring the student and some have developed further. They all need to
make these mistakes once, if we're lucky they make them hiring a
builder or plumber, but if not thats just how it is.

HTH, Jochen

[Don Gould]

Jochen Daum wrote:
>> Often the person registers the domain name in their own name - take 3
>> unchargable hours for me to fix.
>
> Why is that unchargeable. Its not your fault?

I think MG gets my point?

We all know that sometimes there's stuff that's just hard to charge and
is a result of sorting out someone elses mistake.

My point is about 'let's try to do it right, here in php land'. :) :) :)

Picking holes in my example isn't worth it, cause my examples aren't
that good :) :) :) They're easy cannon fodda

> Quite simply put, some clients have developed up to the level of
> hiring the student and some have developed further. They all need to
> make these mistakes once, if we're lucky they make them hiring a
> builder or plumber, but if not thats just how it is.

That's a really good point.

However hiring a php student also doesn't have to be that way.

There's no reason why we can't collectively grab the students by their
uni scafes and make sure they deliver a great result! :)

Cheers Don

[Don Gould]

This is why we have a wiki... :)

[Aaron Cooper]

We have a wiki?

[James McGlinn]

On 25/11/2008, at 2:33 PM, Aaron Cooper wrote:

> We have a wiki?

http://www.phpug.org.nz

Please - anyone - post something :)

[dan...@dwat.co.nz]

Hi Michael,

I am a student, and admit I don't know anything what so ever about the
prices we should be charging. Using international forums I have found that
our work is worth a lot more money than initially thought, and being a
student my time is worth a lot.

Anyway just wanted to say I charge a lot now, and customers actually land
up with a much better product and appear more willing to use me the more I
charge. The reasons are pretty self-explanatory :D

Having said that, I too dislike the way many students work and just
yesterday had problems resolving domain name issues (not the first time)
caused by a fellow student.

Hopefully, if students have any common sense, they will use the wiki to
learn the correct conventions.

Daniel Weeks

[Don Gould]

James McGlinn wrote:
> On 25/11/2008, at 2:33 PM, Aaron Cooper wrote:
>
>> We have a wiki?
>
> http://www.phpug.org.nz
>
> Please - anyone - post something :)

Your wish is my command!

http://www.phpug.org.nz/index.php/Something

...ok, so I was just testing my login.

I just got a response back from T&E so I'll do a page on this issue a
bit later after I've read the stuff they sent me.

Cheers Don

[Aaron Cooper]

> http://www.phpug.org.nz
>
> Please - anyone - post something :)

Yes. This is why I asked (forgot the /s tag)

I've never seen a discussion on using it for this. And I've never read a
great post here and thought "this should go on the Wiki" either.

----- Original Message -----
From: "James McGlinn" <james....@gmail.com>
To: <nzp...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:43 PM
Subject: [phpug] Re: Website Pricing (Off Topic - But need help)


>

[Don Gould]

Aaron Cooper wrote:
>> http://www.phpug.org.nz
>>
>> Please - anyone - post something :)
>
> Yes. This is why I asked (forgot the /s tag)
>
> I've never seen a discussion on using it for this. And I've never read a
> great post here and thought "this should go on the Wiki" either.

http://www.phpug.org.nz/index.php/How_Much_Should_I_Charge

Work in progress...

Cheers Don

[Don Gould]

dan...@dwat.co.nz wrote:

> Hopefully, if students have any common sense, they will use the wiki to
> learn the correct conventions.

Yeah! Inspiration to get writting! :)

Cheers Don

[Philip Arndt]

>
Do we offer the first 20 hours free per week like other daycare
facilities too? ;-)

[Don Gould]

Philip Arndt wrote:
> Do we offer the first 20 hours free per week like other daycare
> facilities too? ;-)

If the Govt will pay me 20 hours a week at the hourly rate I'm going to
work out for MG, then I don't see why we shouldn't give students some
$PHPDayCare.

Cheers Don

[Stig Manning]

James McGlinn wrote:
>> We have a wiki?
>>
>
> http://www.phpug.org.nz
>
> Please - anyone - post something :)
>
>

Hi James,

A section (in the left hand navigation) for 'tutorials' and for 'best
practice' would be great!
Sometimes I come across some PHP awesomeness and have a great desire to
share it.

Also a directory of NZ developers / development companies would be good...

-Stig

[Michael Green]

Would be more than happy to help with the wiki.

I've been watching and reading the groups posts for about a year and a half now and it has helped me in learning some basic php and general coding etiquette.

Thanks for calling CDC can't wait for a reply. Now i can focus my attention on getting this sorted that exams are behind me..

[matt_thomson]

Hi Michael, I started freelancing after finishing my diploma earlier
this year. I started at $30 an hour, and quickly moved to $40 and then
$50 an hour. I have found that almost everyone expects to pay a
reasonable rate for a professional who contracts, just like a plumber
or an accountant, and the couple of people who did raise an eyebrow at
my rates, ended up being the most problamatic. I have also found that
$50 an hour doesn't = $2000 a week, more like $1000 as there is always
heaps of "other" stuff that is hard to account for (eg I am setting up
VMWare today and will prob fork out a few hundred for a license).

My advice is try $40-50 an hour and see what happens. I did, I had no
problems, more only regret was I didn't try it sooner.

[Don Gould]

So get busy!

Sign up a user and add the pages.

Do you know how to make new wiki pages?

Cheers Don

[Don Gould]

http://www.phpug.org.nz/index.php/How_Much_Should_I_Charge

Ok, I've put up some words and an xls.

Get busy and tear me a new one! :)

Cheers Don
Michael Green wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm freelance and in the past have worked with my church getting their
> site looked at and helping build a site for a group that is part of my
> church so haven't normally charged and just done it on a experience basis.
>
> However.....
>
> I've been approached and asked to help a print media company in Auckland
> who wants to update their site http://www.wentforthprint.co.nz/ yes it
> is quite old and from looking at the code looks to be very extensive and
> i'm sure using my limited css and php knowledge i could cut that down.
>
> On to the important stuff...
>
> I was also asked to give them an estimate to produce a similar sized
> site but with a bit more information. I was thinking something like that
> might cost around $900 to $1000 but TBH i am unsure.
>
> Just wondering if anyone out there has any ideas at the price i'd be
> looking to suggest to them.

[Philip Arndt]

ooooh xls.. that's not an open format... :-P
hehe

[Don Gould]

Philip Arndt wrote:
> ooooh xls.. that's not an open format... :-P
> hehe

Would the list admin plz have Phil removed from list...

...there's only room for one troll per list and I already go the job! ;p

Fell free to convert it to open format and upload it to the wiki server
then change the link :) Same me some data on my account.

Cheers Don

[Philip Arndt]

I, myself, don't care about it being xls. Open office reads it
fine.. :-)

[Don Gould]

Philip Arndt wrote:
> I, myself, don't care about it being xls. Open office reads it
> fine.. :-)
>

Ok... so now we know you can read it... did you find it useful?

Do you agree?

Do you see any edits?

Did I leave anything out?

Cheers Don

[Philip Arndt]

I find it a useful calculator to show newbies how expensive it
actually is to go it alone and what their 'reality' chargeout rate
should be.
However, it assumes you put all of your assets on monthly HP and
invest quite a lot in your own server environment when you can
outsource hosting and make the customer pay :-)

The one thing I will mention is that students and those inexperienced
simply can't justify charging too much if they're slow or the work
isn't up to scratch.. so encouraging this may end up with a lot of
new, unemployed PHP developers.
Either that, or some filthy rich ones :-D

I'm a bit too tired currently to review it properly.. :-) but looks
like a promising resource.

Phil

[dan...@dwat.co.nz]

Well done with the table.

You nailed it...

I wanted to be cheeky and add something but as it is, that is not
possible. :D

Daniel Weeks

[Dick Vlaanderen]

Hi Matt

Do you know that VMWare has a free virtualisation product, called VMware Server 2. Here is the url: https://www.vmware.com/freedownload/login.php?product=server20

Dick

[matt_thomson]

It doesn't look like that does what VMWare workstation will do?, I
want to run 3x versions of windows on my desktop for IE6/7/8, hosting
different localhosts is a secondary thing I will prob do but not
vital,

Matt.

On Nov 26, 2:12 am, "Dick Vlaanderen" <d...@multitask.co.nz> wrote:
> Hi Matt
> Do you know that VMWare has a free virtualisation product, called VMware
> Server 2. Here is the url:https://www.vmware.com/freedownload/login.php?product=server20
>
> Dick
>

[Chris Hope]

You can do all that with VMWare Server. It's almost got the same
capabilities as VMWare Workstation but can't play sound in the VM and
I think v1 doesn't support USB2, but I have a feeling v2 does. I've
used Workstation, Server v1 and Server v2, although I couldn't seem to
get the web browser interface to v2 working for some reason. I prefer
the console based system that v1 has so have been using that for the
past year. (I used to use a Linux box and had a licensed version of
Workstation on that, but you can't use the same license for a
different host OS).


2008/11/26 matt_thomson <mthom...@gmail.com>:

--
Chris Hope
The Electric Toolbox Ltd

Email: ch...@electrictoolbox.com
Web: www.electrictoolbox.com
Phone: +64 9 522 9531
Mobile: +64 21 866 529

[matt_thomson]

Thanks I think you just saved me $300.

On Nov 26, 7:58 am, "Chris Hope" <ph...@electrictoolbox.com> wrote:
> You can do all that with VMWare Server. It's almost got the same
> capabilities as VMWare Workstation but can't play sound in the VM and
> I think v1 doesn't support USB2, but I have a feeling v2 does. I've
> used Workstation, Server v1 and Server v2, although I couldn't seem to
> get the web browser interface to v2 working for some reason. I prefer
> the console based system that v1 has so have been using that for the
> past year. (I used to use a Linux box and had a licensed version of
> Workstation on that, but you can't use the same license for a
> different host OS).
>

> 2008/11/26 matt_thomson <mthomso...@gmail.com>:

[James McGlinn]

Hi Stig,

> A section (in the left hand navigation) for 'tutorials' and for 'best
> practice' would be great!
> Sometimes I come across some PHP awesomeness and have a great desire
> to
> share it.

I've added stub pages for those - anyone who wants to contribute, feel
free.

As it's a wiki anyone can add pages, update the homepage, whatever you
guys think is useful.

[Gold]

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On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:03 PM, Don Gould wrote:
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Done. It's hosted on mine. I've added it following your link.

--
Regards
Gold
Evolved Development +64 21 248-4653
http://evolved.net.nz/ go...@evolved.net.nz

[Kent Parker]

I've looked at the wiki...

Interesting costing system Don, but hardly of much relevance to a
student. It's of very little relevance to me either and I've been
full time freelancer for 8 months. Because I'm not charging $70 an
hour I spend 40 hours a week on billable work. It's been several
months since I've had to seek work and I am full up until February at
least.

If you are spending 20 hours a week seeking potential work then that
is a sure sign you are charging too much.

Because I work from home, petrol and rent are irrelevant. IRD
wouldn't let me even if I tried to include rent as a business
expense. At least half those items are totally irrelevant to
freelancers and apply only to software houses.

The normal market process is that freelancer starts off with a
competitive rate because they have less overheads. If freelancer
succeeds and gets reputation then freelancer becomes established
business, employs staff and charges more on the basis of reputation/
brand.

Don't want to spoil your fun but this costing is too much too soon for
any newbie.

[Gold]

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On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:35 PM, Don Gould wrote:
>
> Philip Arndt wrote:
>> I, myself, don't care about it being xls. Open office reads it
>> fine.. :-)
>>
> Ok... so now we know you can read it... did you find it useful?

I found it useful. Cheers Don.

> Do you agree?

I found the cost of some things quite above what I would consider to
be the norm.

$1k for software?? You run microsoft don't you. :)

- From the point of view of someone starting out there are a hell of a
lot of cost cuts that could be made here.

These are the suggestions that I would recommend for someone starting out;
Skip the Server System. There's plenty of places you can host without
the need for your own servers.
Printer. I've been running a paperless office for over a year now.
It's possible to do it.
Software. My total bill for software since I started: $0. Percentage
of legit software in the office: 100%
Telephone: You don't need one. Stick with the mobile.
Mobile Broadband for customer presentations: There's plenty of free
wireless now.
Data Projector for presentations and training: Presentations, yes; but
what are you presenting? Training, no. Sit them in front of a
keyboard for training.
Car: Everything you do is online. You don't need one.
Marketing and Sales Costs: Word of mouth recommendations may increase
the Entertainment budget, but not nearly as much as this field.

Just as a side note; a reasonable number of my clients aren't even in
the same city so things like presentations/training/car are
superfluou. More often than not I tend to avoid presentations too. If
I have to sell myself like that then I'm not that interested, but
that's just me. If a potential client is considering my services and
pretty diagrams and arm waving is going to cause them to pick me I'm
not interested in them at all.
- --

Regards
Gold
Evolved Development +64 21 248-4653
http://evolved.net.nz/ go...@evolved.net.nz

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[Philip Arndt]

>
> Because I work from home, petrol and rent are irrelevant. IRD
> wouldn't let me even if I tried to include rent as a business
> expense. At least half those items are totally irrelevant to
> freelancers and apply only to software houses.

You can actually rent your office to your "business".. it's just a
percentage of your overheads for your house (power,mortgage/rent, etc)
-- I think my office is about 5% of my house..
I can't use my office space for any other purpose so therefore it's a
part of your house that the "business" should rent
You can also claim half your phone line and if you have to travel to
clients there's a per km rate for expenses.

[Gold]

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On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Don Gould wrote:
> ps: who ever suggested whois... www.whitepages.co.nz ;)

Yeah, because _everyone_ is in the whitepages.

Most of the people I know and businesses I deal with don't qualify to
be listed...

- --
Regards
Gold
Evolved Development +64 21 248-4653
http://evolved.net.nz/ go...@evolved.net.nz

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[Julian Melville]

> Because I work from home, petrol and rent are irrelevant. IRD
> wouldn't let me even if I tried to include rent as a business
> expense.

If you have a company (and frankly why wouldn't you?) and the registered
business address is your home address, then rent and other associated
expenses are absolutely a legitimate cost of doing business.

You measure up and document what percentage of your house is occupied by
the business and it pays the appropriate share of rent, power etc. This
is the way we've been doing it for a couple of years under instructions
from the accountant.

Cheers,

Julian.

[James McGlinn]

On 26/11/2008, at 9:23 AM, Kent Parker wrote:

> Because I work from home, petrol and rent are irrelevant. IRD
> wouldn't let me even if I tried to include rent as a business
> expense.

As others have mentioned you can charge your business rent. I believe
it's up to 15% of the total floorspace (and hence monthly opex).
Again, check with your accountant before actioning anything you hear
on this list, but I think this can include part of 'communal' areas
(hallways) used to access 'facilities' (toilet, kitchen, etc).

[Hamish Campbell]

To back up Julian & Phillip - this is totally normal and the IRD
provides advice on how to calculate the expenses you can claim while
operating a business from home.

http://www.ird.govt.nz/business-income-tax/expenses/homebus-exp/

Perhaps a good link for the wiki.

Cheers,
Hamish

[Kent Parker]

Thanks Julian and Philip,

I wasn't aware that IRD was that amenable to such an accommodation.
I'm due to see an accountant soon so he can help me sort that out.
I've always maintained that your accountant should be able to pay for
themselves by the tax they can avoid for you.

On Nov 26, 9:45 am, Julian Melville <jul...@tiddly-pom.com> wrote:

[Aaron Cooper]

This one comes up every couple of months, so I've colated a bunch of RTE's
that have been mentioned on the list during those discussions..

Will work on details, features and links soon.

Feel free to add to it

http://www.phpug.org.nz/index.php/Rich_Text_Editor_For_PHP

Aaron

[James McGlinn]

On 26/11/2008, at 10:42 AM, Aaron Cooper wrote:

> This one comes up every couple of months, so I've colated a bunch of
> RTE's
> that have been mentioned on the list during those discussions..
>
> Will work on details, features and links soon.
>
> Feel free to add to it
>
> http://www.phpug.org.nz/index.php/Rich_Text_Editor_For_PHP

Great, thanks Aaron.

I've put a link on the homepage to that resource too.

[Damien]

It would be cool to add Ratings or Votes next to each editor
And everyone on the list that has time and experience with each, could give their favourite editors Votes

Id vote up FCKeditor just from experience of using it

Maybe even some suggested editors to use for different scenarios:
Open Source development = editor here
Quick Fast implementation = editor here

Cheers,
Damien

Ph: (07) 838 3775
Fax: (07) 838 3775
Email: dam...@tech1.co.nz

James McGlinn wrote:

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3635 (20081124) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com



  

[Aaron Cooper]

This is probably best served and mananged by a "Pros and Cons" section for each editor. Members can add to it as they find issues, and remove from it as each product matures.

 

I only really put it up so the next time the question arises, the same list isn't collated by a dozen UG posts. Someone can just link to the page.

 

Aaron

----- Original Message -----

From: Damien

To: nzp...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:04 AM

Subject: [phpug] Re: Website Pricing (Off Topic - But need help) - http://www.phpug.org.nz/index.php/How_Much_Should_I_Charge

[Don Gould]

Gold wrote:
>
> Done. It's hosted on mine. I've added it following your link.
>

In true closed source form, I have updated the XLS. It now has
superiour features that I suspect your tools won't be able to deal with.

I have also included more support tools and information for the benefit
of the whole closed sources community... err I mean global user base.

Cheers Don

[Don Gould]

Hamish Campbell wrote:
> To back up Julian & Phillip - this is totally normal and the IRD
> provides advice on how to calculate the expenses you can claim while
> operating a business from home.
>
> http://www.ird.govt.nz/business-income-tax/expenses/homebus-exp/
>
> Perhaps a good link for the wiki.

Agreed, good find. Added.

Cheers Don

[Don Gould]

Kent Parker wrote:
> I wasn't aware that IRD was that amenable to such an accommodation.

Common comment from people in small business.

> I've always maintained that your accountant should be able to pay for
> themselves by the tax they can avoid for you.

Hummm... it's not about tax evadtion or avoidance. It's simply about
claiming deductions that you're entitled to.

...in fact, the whole process is actually about driving economic activity.

eg. Knowing that you can claim the cost of entertainment (or part of)
means that you're more likely to do some entertaining. Even if it's
just shouting some customers at beer at the pub.

From a tax point of view, this pays off for the IRD. They will collect
some GST on your consumption (as you can't claim that bit) and you're
putting money in to a different industry.

However you're also likely to talk about business which may result in
everyone doing more business. It really is win, win, win.

If your customer buys you a beer then they can claim it as a supplier
entertainment.

2 beers (so you can still drive home) and half of it is tax deductible.

Cheers Don

[Don Gould]

James McGlinn wrote:
> As others have mentioned you can charge your business rent. I believe
> it's up to 15% of the total floorspace (and hence monthly opex).

Last year we claimed 33% of our rent back. Our business actually took
almost 60% of our flat by the time we moved out.

> Again, check with your accountant before actioning anything you hear
> on this list,

+1. If you're not confident then check with an expert.

You can also get free small business advise from a Small Business
Advisor at the IRD. We have used their services extensivly.

Anyone who wants and IRD contact in Chc is welcome to contact me off list.

> but I think this can include part of 'communal' areas
> (hallways) used to access 'facilities' (toilet, kitchen, etc).

I suspect you're right. We've never gone that far. We've stuck to the
bits that the business equipment is in. This year I will be claiming
part of my new $10,000 lounge suit ;) (jk)

Cheers Don

[Don Gould]

Kent Parker wrote:
> Interesting costing system Don, but hardly of much relevance to a
> student.

It's all relevant and especially to students.

As as student, if you one day want to move on to doing programming as a
full time job, you'll want to understand this stuff.

> It's of very little relevance to me either and I've been
> full time freelancer for 8 months. Because I'm not charging $70 an
> hour I spend 40 hours a week on billable work. It's been several
> months since I've had to seek work and I am full up until February at
> least.

Ok, that comment just suggests to me that you didn't understand the
purpose of the template, hence I've updated it with some colour and more
info.

In your case you should put your own numbers in. If you can get 40
hours billable and still put some time back in to FLOSS development and
community support that's great!

> If you are spending 20 hours a week seeking potential work then that
> is a sure sign you are charging too much.

It could also suggest that you want a better quality of work life. You
don't want to have to code hard out all day every day for 8 hours a day
but still want to make a reasonable wage - would you call $55k unreasonable?

>
> Because I work from home, petrol and rent are irrelevant.

Wrong.

Petrol to visit your clients and suppliers is relevant.

Rent is tax deductable.

>IRD
> wouldn't let me even if I tried to include rent as a business
> expense.

Wrong - we claimed 30% last year alone.

> At least half those items are totally irrelevant to
> freelancers and apply only to software houses.

Wrong - other than the data projector, I claimed all of those last year.

>
> The normal market process is that freelancer starts off with a
> competitive rate because they have less overheads. If freelancer
> succeeds and gets reputation then freelancer becomes established
> business, employs staff and charges more on the basis of reputation/
> brand.

Perhaps on your moon :) I've spent years doing freelance stuff and
don't currently have plans to employ staff though I do use contractors.

> Don't want to spoil your fun

No fun spoiled at all. :)

You're views are very welcomed here... though I don't agree with you,
think you're just wrong on some counts, you've raised some really good
points and highlighted that I failed to explain my point well in the
first instance.

Spoiling the fun would have been to just ignore my error!

> but this costing is too much too soon for
> any newbie.

If this costing is to much for a newbi who is wanting to be a good PHP
programmer then, with respect, I suggest they go off and get a job at KMart.

You may not recall, but the orginal post was about how much to charge.
Most people responded with comments centered around charging a market
rate so as not to disturb the market.

I responded by saying that answer is unacceptable. It's, in part, not
ok because the current market rate may be being set by a large player
who has a reason to drive market prices down.

The correct answer to the question is to cost out what you should be
charging then work from there.

Cheers Don

[Don Gould]

Julian Melville wrote:
> If you have a company (and frankly why wouldn't you?) and the registered
> business address is your home address, then rent and other associated
> expenses are absolutely a legitimate cost of doing business.

You don't need to have a company.

If you operate under your own name, you are a sole trader.

If you operate from home then you can claim even if you don't have a
limited co, partnership, association, or other legal entity.

> You measure up and document what percentage of your house is occupied by
> the business and it pays the appropriate share of rent,

Correct.

power etc.

Wrong.

You have to be able to justify the percentage of use. The power use is
not based on the percentage of space your laptop takes up on your desk.

In the case of power I claim quite a bit because my servers and printers
use a truck load.

Cheers Don

[Don Gould]

Gold wrote:
> I found it useful. Cheers Don.

You're welcome.

>> Do you agree?
>
> I found the cost of some things quite above what I would consider to
> be the norm.

Humm.... number of people seemed to miss the point that it's a template.
You just adjust the numbers to your own needs.

> $1k for software?? You run microsoft don't you. :)

...errr... As a Microsoft DEV I would have set that figure at ~$5k, not
1k. MSDN isn't free and is annual.

I wondered if anyone would pick up on that though....

FLOSS dev's still have to eat. If you want a customisation then you may
choose to pay for it to be done. I've made an allowance for PHP
programmers who want to give something back to the project maintainers
directly.

> - From the point of view of someone starting out there are a hell of a
> lot of cost cuts that could be made here.

Again, the purpose is to help you work our that you *should* be charging
rather than just charging based on what the market is currently charging.

I agree. As a student there are things that you may choose not to
factor in.

For example, you may already have a computer for study, so you don't
feel the need to factor it in.

However, even as a student you still have to pay tax on the money you
earn doing your programming for your part time job. If you work for
KMart then you can't claim any of the cost of your computer back against
your tax. If you do a contract job for someone, you can.

> These are the suggestions that I would recommend for someone starting out;

> Skip the Server System.

>There's plenty of places you can host without
> the need for your own servers.

As a contractor I always had about 3 servers. 1 to store files on, two
others for building up test platfroms - sand box machines.

Yes, today you can do more and more of this on your own laptop with
visualisation.

You'll also note that I put in quite a large allowance for hardware,
high that most of us probablly even spend these days. I know my last
laptop was sub 2k.

> Printer. I've been running a paperless office for over a year now.

You'll notice I didn't include a PDA in the list. A PDA is a 'must
have' for some people. Perhaps you need to test your sites on it.
Perhaps you need to demonstrate to people.

The point is, to caculate your cost, put in what you need. :)

> Software. My total bill for software since I started: $0. Percentage
> of legit software in the office: 100%

I'm guessing this means you give nothing back to GNU foundation to help
support their work - air travel for Richard is still not free... or is it?

> Telephone: You don't need one. Stick with the mobile.

100%, but if you do have one and you use it, you're entitled to claim.

> Mobile Broadband for customer presentations: There's plenty of free
> wireless now.

Yip, you can trim your costs down by leaving out things you don't feel
you'll need.

You can also choose to accept $35k as an income.

> Data Projector for presentations and training: Presentations, yes; but
> what are you presenting?

Yip, a 'nice to have' for some people, and required for others, but
justifying your laser pointer without one could be hard!

You need a $5k projector to justify a $5 toy!!!

> Training, no. Sit them in front of a
> keyboard for training.

Good luck if your training/presenting 40 people on the busineses new web
site features.

> Car: Everything you do is online. You don't need one.

True. You can order your next PC online, no need to go to Dicksmith to
browser.

> Marketing and Sales Costs: Word of mouth recommendations may increase
> the Entertainment budget, but not nearly as much as this field.

I've always found, the more you spend in this field, the more you earn.
It's up to you.

> If a potential client is considering my services and
> pretty diagrams and arm waving is going to cause them to pick me I'm
> not interested in them at all.

Each to his own. :)

Personally, if all I have to do to get customers is wave my arms then
I'm not to unhappy about that.

Cheers Don

[Philip Arndt]

> eg. Knowing that you can claim the cost of entertainment (or part of)
> means that you're more likely to do some entertaining. Even if it's
> just shouting some customers at beer at the pub.
>
> From a tax point of view, this pays off for the IRD. They will
> collect
> some GST on your consumption (as you can't claim that bit) and you're
> putting money in to a different industry.

Sorry, why can't you claim the GST on that, if you're registered? Not
being tricky I honestly want to know.
Surely you could run a tab and get them to print out a tax invoice for
you.. must be common practice for pubs.

[Don Gould]

Philip Arndt wrote:
> Sorry, why can't you claim the GST on that, if you're registered? Not
> being tricky I honestly want to know.
> Surely you could run a tab and get them to print out a tax invoice for
> you.. must be common practice for pubs.

IIRC you can claim half of entertainment costs.

So, yes, say you run up $100 at the bar, you can claim back the GST on
half, ie $50. You can also put $44.44 in as an expense (ie, exc GST
amount).

The consideration here is FBT. Fringe Benefit Tax.

What the IRD is attempting to avoid is, you and I just taking each other
to the pub each week and taking turns at paying, then putting the whole
lot down as business expense. (AIUI that did actually used to happen)
That's just simply not fair and reasonable. The objective of the rule
is to encrouge you to do entertainment to drive more business, not just
take out your mates for drinking games.

HTH

Cheers Don

[Julian Melville]

> In the case of power I claim quite a bit because my servers and printers
> use a truck load.

Interesting, will have to look into that. Although as the coffee machine
runs all the time and has a 1.6 kW draw when the element's on it might
beat the servers :)

Julian.

[Don Gould]

Coffee is a hard one. See my post about entertainment.

You can't claim your lunch because you do have to eat anyway.

However there are rules about meal break allowance after working a
number of hours.

Now some of us here work many tens of hours a week, yet we don't claim
entitlements that someone working for a meat works would get as a matter
of 'right'.

I did see the :) following your comment, but as much as you gest it is
actually a very valid and quite important point.

I might have suggested that we should shut this topic down because it's
really OT for OSS and PHP, yet I don't feel it is.

All to often we don't pay enough attention to the bigger picture of what
we're trying to do with OSS and its impact on our world.

Cheers Don

[Don Gould]

See: http://www.phpug.org.nz/index.php/How_Much_Should_I_Charge

I have just added a process chart to outline processes that need to be
considered in a costing.

Feel free to tear it apart!

Also if anyone have a link to Dave Lane's T&C doc that they'd like to
repost I think we should include it in the same part of the wiki.

Cheers Don

[Kent Parker]

Hi Don,

That's all good info. I won't argue with you Don. It's definitely
given me something to think about before my first visit to the
accountant

[Chris Burgess]

Don Gould wrote:
> Also if anyone have a link to Dave Lane's T&C doc that they'd like to
> repost I think we should include it in the same part of the wiki.
>

I created a new page with a link to Egressive's document, so that we
benefit from updates to the copy hosted by Egressive, and we can add
other references in the Wiki page as they come to light.

http://www.phpug.org.nz/index.php/Business_Terms_and_Conditions

I'd be interested in engaging with other members on producing some other
documents in a similar vein - eg SLA, website privacy policies, etc etc.
Any other requests?

[Don Gould]

Don Gould wrote:
> I can't remember were the instructions are or where to find them other
> than ringing CDC and asking them. As you're in Akl and won't have a
> clue who to talk to or even what to ask them, I'll give them a call
> later this afternoon and report back to the list. I think this is stuff
> that will help everyone (based on what I read today!)

Man this is proving to be harder than it should be!

CDC didn't have documents - http://www.cdc.org.nz/

They have a hard copy of a big document from NZTE

http://www.nzte.govt.nz/

I rang both.

NZTE are going to see what they have but suspect it's not an open lic
that they can publish on line... hummm.

So I'm going to wait to see what they do and if they can't then I'll
write something under CC lic.

Cheers Don

[Vivian Chandra]

Hi everyone,

We re-launched a new look for our website yesterday (Thanks Berend!! You
rock!!)

And I guess you guys can give us some opinions on what I'm doing wrong with
Drupal! Haha...

Check it out here: www.amnesty.org.nz

Vivian

[Nicolaas Thiemen Francken - Sunny Side Up]

2008/11/27 Vivian Chandra <li...@sparkweb.co.nz>

Hey Vivian

Looks great. Worthy cause. Only thing I would recommend is to highlight the current page in the menu(s) by simply using the overstate.  This provides a bit of visual feedback to the visitor.

Cheers

Nicolaas

 

Vivian

[Berend de Boer]

>>>>> ""Nicolaas" == "Nicolaas Thiemen Francken <- Sunny Side Up" <nfra...@gmail.com>> writes:

"Nicolaas> Hey Vivian Looks great. Worthy cause. Only thing I would
"Nicolaas> recommend is to highlight the current page in the menu(s)
"Nicolaas> by simply using the overstate. This provides a bit of
"Nicolaas> visual feedback to the visitor.

Highlight the active page you mean?

--
Cheers,

Berend de Boer

[Berend de Boer]