DOVER SAMUELS stood down
Aaron Bhatnagar
<c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his
> ministerial
> responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
> Mr. Samuels has stood down after a letter about the matter was sent to
> the Prime
> Minister’s Department yesterday. Radio New Zealand is reporting that
> ACT leader
> Richard Prebble has also written a letter to the PM in relation to the
> allegations. Mr. Prebble is making no comment at this time.
> According to reports police investigated the allegations last year but no
> charges were laid.
I'm reluctant to comment until he has told his side of the story, but
does the Labour Party not screen it's candidates before election time?
AB
Brian
I'm also making no comment on the actual allegations against Dover,
while they are simply allegations. Allegations are very easy to
make. They are serious, whether he is guilty or innocent, and should
be treated seriously.
Note it's not possible to screen anyone against the possibility of
false allegations of sexual misconduct.
Brian
Aaron Bhatnagar
> >I'm reluctant to comment until he has told his side of the story, but
> >does the Labour Party not screen it's candidates before election time?
>
>
> I'm also making no comment on the actual allegations against Dover,
> while they are simply allegations. Allegations are very easy to
> make. They are serious, whether he is guilty or innocent, and should
> be treated seriously.
>
> Note it's not possible to screen anyone against the possibility of
> false allegations of sexual misconduct.
>
>
> Brian
That's true about false allegations, but I note that Mr Samuels has
stood down from his post - it does look ominous.
AB
Klaatu
>Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his ministerial
>responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
>Mr. Samuels has stood down after a letter about the matter was sent to the Prime
>Minister's Department yesterday. Radio New Zealand is reporting that ACT leader
>Richard Prebble has also written a letter to the PM in relation to the
>allegations. Mr. Prebble is making no comment at this time.
>According to reports police investigated the allegations last year but no
>charges were laid.
Before leaping to conclusions, look who is making the allegations.
Richard Prebble.
Who ran a baseless campaign against John Tamihere for six months,
calling in the Serious Fraud Office and the police to investigate
allegations by Prebble that were found to be utterly without
foundation.
Prebble's constant Maori bashing in the name of seeking the redneck
vote is utterly repugnant IMO.
Wait and see what comes of this before judging Samuels, who has almost
as many enemies in the Labour Party as Tamihere has, and for much the
same reasons -- both oppose Maori dependency on the state.
Which ironically one would have thought Prebble would admire them for.
--
Gort! Klaatu barada nikto!
lfc
Aaron Bhatnagar wrote in message ...
I'm not one to make comments about allegations but I thought he looked like
a right sleaze bucket hanging all over Helen Clarke on election night.
Yucko. Not that I'm making a coment though.
lfc
KIWINEWS
"Col" <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:RjFQOeC64PBrEX...@4ax.com...
> gort@nowhereDIE*SPAMMERcom (Klaatu) wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >Before leaping to conclusions, look who is making the allegations.
> >
>
involved a
> year ago. Lets see if Dover is a sleazeball or not in court.
> --
> *Col*
Prebble sent a letter to the PM, and the Police. The allegations stem back
14 years, and regard the age of a woman Samuels is alleged to have had sex
with.
As I always say, demand a birth certificate first :-).
However, any allegations coming from Prebble that relate to a Maori MP, have
to be at least questionable to start with.
Trevor.
E. Scrooge
<8ipdh3$k0g$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
Anything that Prebble would have to say, would have to be questionable.
E. Scrooge
...Tom
>14 years, and regard the age of a woman Samuels is alleged to have had sex
>with.
Now why does that not surprise me in the least. My level of respect
for Prebble continues to plummet. His complete lack of grace in the
Tamihere affair was gutless. If this current affair turns out to be no
more than irrelevant muck raking in the hope of stirring up trouble,
then it will be about time for Prebble to take a long hard look at
himself, unless of course his party has the sense to do it first.
...Tom
KIWINEWS
"...Tom" <to...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:n2f0ls4dcstqv0rf1...@4ax.com...
From some reading between the lines over the last few months, I think there
is ACT - and then there is Richard Prebble, the two seem to be separating
rapidly.
Trevor.
Peter
aaron@_deletemehere_bhatnagar.co.nz pontificates...
>
[snip]
>
>
>I'm reluctant to comment until he has told his side of the story, but
>does the Labour Party not screen it's candidates before election time?
>
Same could be said about ACT with regard to a certain Manawatu candidate who
has now apparently skipped the country following GST related charges being
laid.
Peter
DPF
news:aaron-7A5A45....@news.clear.net.nz...
> > >does the Labour Party not screen it's candidates before election time?
> >
> >
> > while they are simply allegations. Allegations are very easy to
> > make. They are serious, whether he is guilty or innocent, and should
> > be treated seriously.
> >
> > Note it's not possible to screen anyone against the possibility of
> > false allegations of sexual misconduct.
> >
>
> stood down from his post - it does look ominous.
I don't think anyone should pre judge merely on the basis he has stood down.
That is the appropriate thing to do with allegations this serious IMO.
I am rather surprised that the allegations were first raised with his party
leader in January though and not investigated thorougly.
DPF
Aaron Bhatnagar
wrote:
>
> Same could be said about ACT with regard to a certain Manawatu candidate
> who
> has now apparently skipped the country following GST related charges
> being
> laid.
>
> Peter
>
Err, I think you mean NZ First candidate Suzanne Bruce, who has left for
Australia with her partner, following allegations of GST fraud and
cruelty to animals. If this is the case, I suggest you withdraw the word
ACT and replace it with NZ First, and work harder at getting simple
facts right.
Regards
AB
Sheitan
KIWINEWS <edi...@kiwinews.co.nz> wrote in message
news:8ipf17$k9v$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
The impression I get is of two factions - one set of idealogues, who want to
keep the party centred around Kerr's ideas, and one set of populists,
centred around Hide, who want to increase votes, particularly in areas like
hard criminal policy and anti-Treaty settlement policy (or the appearance of
it - to get the "yeah lets vote Prebs, he'll sort them Maori buggers out"
mob).
Whether this is true or not remains to be seen.
- Sheitan
pip...@xtra.co.nz
> Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his
ministerial
> responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
Am I a weirdo?????
I am just NOT interested in other peoples sex lives....
Mark Todd..then a politician...really who cares??????
What they do behind closed doors is their business....as long as it does not
harm others..
We are really starting to get like those tabloid sleezy newspapers/reporters
in
the UK....
Thought we were a bit more enlightened.....maybe not..
Pip
Hippo
>From some reading between the lines over the last few months, I think there
>is ACT - and then there is Richard Prebble, the two seem to be separating
>rapidly.
The debate might well begin: Who woud replace Prebble? They're a pretty
strange lot.
Russell Brown
>
> KIWINEWS <edi...@kiwinews.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:8ipf17$k9v$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
> >
> > "...Tom" <to...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> > news:n2f0ls4dcstqv0rf1...@4ax.com...
> > > in reply to "KIWINEWS" <edi...@kiwinews.co.nz>
> > > >Prebble sent a letter to the PM, and the Police. The allegations stem
> > back
> > > >14 years, and regard the age of a woman Samuels is alleged to have had
> > sex
> > > >with.
> > >
> > > Now why does that not surprise me in the least. My level of respect
> > > for Prebble continues to plummet. His complete lack of grace in the
> > > Tamihere affair was gutless. If this current affair turns out to be no
> > > more than irrelevant muck raking in the hope of stirring up trouble,
> > > then it will be about time for Prebble to take a long hard look at
> > > himself, unless of course his party has the sense to do it first.
> > >
> > > ...Tom
> >
> there
> > is ACT - and then there is Richard Prebble, the two seem to be separating
> > rapidly.
> >
>
> keep the party centred around Kerr's ideas, and one set of populists,
> centred around Hide, who want to increase votes, particularly in areas like
> hard criminal policy and anti-Treaty settlement policy (or the appearance of
> it - to get the "yeah lets vote Prebs, he'll sort them Maori buggers out"
> mob).
>
> Whether this is true or not remains to be seen.
It's hardly a secret - it was the main issue at Act's last party
conference. Douglas is horrified by oafs like Hide.
This latest smear is classic Prebble. Just as in the Tamihere case, it's
not *him* that's making these terrible allegations - he's just passing
on the concerns of some citizens. And if there proves to be nothing in
it, then, hey, it's not his fault ...
Cheers,
RB
Doc Holiday
"...Tom" <to...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:n2f0ls4dcstqv0rf1...@4ax.com...
> in reply to "KIWINEWS" <edi...@kiwinews.co.nz>
> >Prebble sent a letter to the PM, and the Police. The allegations stem
back
> >14 years, and regard the age of a woman Samuels is alleged to have had
sex
> >with.
>
> Now why does that not surprise me in the least. My level of respect
> for Prebble continues to plummet. His complete lack of grace in the
> Tamihere affair was gutless. If this current affair turns out to be no
> more than irrelevant muck raking in the hope of stirring up trouble,
> then it will be about time for Prebble to take a long hard look at
> himself, unless of course his party has the sense to do it first.
>
> ...Tom
Well said Tom
Aaron Bhatnagar
<sheit...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > From some reading between the lines over the last few months, I think
> there
> > is ACT - and then there is Richard Prebble, the two seem to be
> > separating
> > rapidly.
> >
>
> The impression I get is of two factions - one set of idealogues, who want
> to
> keep the party centred around Kerr's ideas, and one set of populists,
> centred around Hide, who want to increase votes, particularly in areas
> like
> hard criminal policy and anti-Treaty settlement policy (or the appearance
> of
> it - to get the "yeah lets vote Prebs, he'll sort them Maori buggers out"
> mob).
>
> Whether this is true or not remains to be seen.
Not quite. There were tensions between two groups at the last ACT
internal party elections on issues of organisation and the party
constitution. Issues such as ACT's list selection, electorate and
divisonal organisation and how policy is created and submitted by
members were discussed, debated and argued over. Since the last
election, a review committee, chaired by Ruth Richardson has made
recommendations to the ACT Board, which were accepted by them for voting
on at the next ACT conference by the members.
There is actually little difference within the party on policy issues,
aside from the fact that on some issues (like super) some members are
more conservative and push for policies embracing compulsion (like Sir
Roger Douglas), compared to more liberal thinkers who advocate voluntary
opt-in policies, which was championed by Doug Myers and Rodney Hide at
the last conference.
Both groups are idealists and can be considered policy wonks. Preb's
himself could be classified as a pragmatist.
Regards
AB
Dave Joll
>That's true about false allegations, but I note that Mr Samuels has
>stood down from his post - it does look ominous.
Probably has more to do with the source of the allegations -
a politician who is not unknown for this sort of nonsense
and who earlier this year was trying to discredit another
prominent Maori MP in a similar manner. That came to
nothing either... one wonders what a politician has to do
to be "misleading the House"...
Brian M. Harmer
>
>Col <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
>news:RxNQORH2X=hUEExUkLq...@4ax.com...
>> Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his
>ministerial
>> responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
>
>Am I a weirdo?????
>I am just NOT interested in other peoples sex lives....
>Mark Todd..then a politician...really who cares??????
>What they do behind closed doors is their business....as long as it does not
>harm others..
Ummm ... there is a slight difference in that in this case the
allegation appears to involve sex with someone below the legal age.
If that turns out to be true, then he is no different to Bert Potter.
I am inclined to believe (or hope) he is innocent, and hope I am not
proved wrong.
--
Brian M. Harmer
http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~bharmer/
Brian Sandle
: The Alliance don't do any screening oobviously. What about the festering
: droitwich that posts in this group. ?
Droit = right & wic has a connection to wise.
I think she does very well casting light in newsgroups which have a
number of posters working full time to fill with junk. They are doing
that to disempower the group by making serious people stop reading.
And when I have heard Janice on the radio she has come across very well.
Evad Rehtona
> Same could be said about ACT with regard to a certain Manawatu candidate who
> has now apparently skipped the country following GST related charges being
> laid.
You ignorant fuckwit.
The candidate you are talking about is from your own favourite New
Zealand Last, the "Warrior Princess" Suzanne Bruce who came from nowhere
to replace sitting NZ Last candidates on the list.
Winston First, the party opposing tax fraud, whose star new candidate
bolted from NZ after being charged with multiple counts of GST fraud and
other charges.
I really can't imagine how you could have got something as well
publicised as this so wrong. Let alone blame it on ACT.
Anthony Mersey
wrote:
>KIWINEWS wrote in message <8ipf17$k9v$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
>
>>From some reading between the lines over the last few months, I think there
>>is ACT - and then there is Richard Prebble, the two seem to be separating
>>rapidly.
>
>
>The debate might well begin: Who woud replace Prebble? They're a pretty
>strange lot.
ACT must be wondering whether Prebble is a liability or an asset.
His blatant red necking might be bringing in some support but his
history of party hopping and involvement in Rogernomics would not be
winning over many. The NZ voter is tired of politicians like
Prebble.
********************************************************************
National and 13 Years of New Right failure: A bitter legacy for NZ
of excessive privilege for a very few; a culture of near corruption,
extravagance, and incompetence.
harry
My understanding is that all Prebble has done is write a letter
to Clark about this as he does on many other issues. I think
the letter refers to allegations being made by informants of
Prebble. I don't see how you could interpret any of this as
misleading the house. I also wonder why it has been brought
up that these allegations are another display of married-to-a
solomon-islander Prebble's "racism". All he has done is write
a letter to the PM regarding allegations about a member of
cabinet. If people want to make it a race issue that is their
own problem.
(harry)
Sarns
<pip...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:zkY35.2560$lE26.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
[snip]
> Am I a weirdo?????
> I am just NOT interested in other peoples sex lives....
> Mark Todd..then a politician...really who cares??????
I guess with Samuels it's the fact that she was meant to be underage when he was
having sex with her..
Sarns
KIWINEWS
"Brian M. Harmer" <brian....@vuw.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:84o0ls4satct7cedj...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:24:07 +1200, <pip...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >
> >Col <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> >news:RxNQORH2X=hUEExUkLq...@4ax.com...
> >> Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his
> >ministerial
> >> responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
> >
> >I am just NOT interested in other peoples sex lives....
> >Mark Todd..then a politician...really who cares??????
not
> >harm others..
>
> Ummm ... there is a slight difference in that in this case the
> allegation appears to involve sex with someone below the legal age.
> If that turns out to be true, then he is no different to Bert Potter.
>
> I am inclined to believe (or hope) he is innocent, and hope I am not
> proved wrong.
>
After hearing the family's spokesman say " .......as far as she
remembers......." he said that at least two or three times. If she had sex
with Samuels, and an abortion, before the age of 16, surely she would have
documents, firm evidence, witnesses to the abortion, etc... s. Not just "
as far as she remembers....".
Time will tell. But I think there is more to this that we haven't heard.
One interesting part to be fully heard yet is how the reputable trustworthy
Mother, has just finished a lengthy prison term.
Trevor.
David Wardley
haven't heard.
> One interesting part to be fully heard yet is how the reputable
trustworthy
> Mother, has just finished a lengthy prison term.
>
> Trevor.
I don't know anything about this one yet, - but if how to make
money can't be learned in prison I guess it can't be learned
anywhere....other than parliament I guess....
Dave
Simon Pleasants
> >The debate might well begin: Who woud replace Prebble? They're a pretty
> >strange lot.
> ACT must be wondering whether Prebble is a liability or an asset.
> His blatant red necking might be bringing in some support but his
> history of party hopping and involvement in Rogernomics would not be
> winning over many. The NZ voter is tired of politicians like
> Prebble.
I think Prebbs made a serious political mistake doing this grubby little
deed himself.
A cleverer politician would -- like Thatcher did in the 80's in Britain --
have enlisted the services of a suitably zealous lieutenant. Such as Hide.
Pug
> >
> > the
> > allegation appears to involve sex with someone below the legal age.
>
> remembers......." he said that at least two or three times. If she had sex
> with Samuels, and an abortion, before the age of 16, surely she would have
> documents, firm evidence, witnesses
Moral of the story: Take a lawyer with you wherever you go.
Simon Pleasants
> That isn't really possible, Prebble is the ACT party. Nothing happens
> without his greasy little fingers being in the pie.
They're going to have to roll him some time. Act suffers from a classic
managerial problem of the organiasation that has grown to the stage where
real delegation has to occur -- or it won't grow any further. If the
parliamentary party is to stand any chance of expansion, either Prebble has
to let go, or the rest have top get rid of him.
Owen McShane
>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:24:07 +1200, <pip...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >
> >Col <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
> >news:RxNQORH2X=hUEExUkLq...@4ax.com...
> >> Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his
> >ministerial
> >> responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
> >
> >Am I a weirdo?????
> >I am just NOT interested in other peoples sex lives....
> >Mark Todd..then a politician...really who cares??????
> >What they do behind closed doors is their business....as long as it does not
> >harm others..
>
> allegation appears to involve sex with someone below the legal age.
Really? When I was a late teenage I am sure I tried to bonk girls of
fifteen and the reason I couldn't was usually because they were so
damned good looking and mature that they were being bonked by older and
more attractive than teenage me.
If every man who bonked a teenager twenty years ago is going to be
charged with "serious sexual offenses" we had better start building a
hell of a lot of gaols.
This looks more like a case of blackmail to me. And Helen Clarke has
outwitted Preb who is starting to look like the stupid republicans
chasing Clinton. The new puritans can huff and puff all they like but
people secretly admire sexually active folk andthey all know that people
who are successful in politics have "charisma" which is newspeak for
"sex appeal."
And whatever happened to the statute of limitations?
> I am inclined to believe (or hope) he is innocent, and hope I am not
> proved wrong.
>
> --
> Brian M. Harmer
> http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~bharmer/
--
Owen McShane
Kaiwaka, Northland, New Zealand.
Publisher of Straight Thinking Magazine
Owen McShane
>
> KIWINEWS <edi...@kiwinews.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:8ipv1p$o9a$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
> > >
> > > allegation appears to involve sex with someone below the legal age.
> >
> > remembers......." he said that at least two or three times. If she had sex
> > with Samuels, and an abortion, before the age of 16, surely she would have
> > documents, firm evidence, witnesses
>
> Moral of the story: Take a lawyer with you wherever you go.
man.
David Murray
Aaron Bhatnagar wrote:
> In article <RxNQORH2X=hUEExUkLq...@4ax.com>, Col
> <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his
> > ministerial
> > responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
> > Mr. Samuels has stood down after a letter about the matter was sent to
> > the Prime
> > Minister’s Department yesterday. Radio New Zealand is reporting that
> > ACT leader
> > Richard Prebble has also written a letter to the PM in relation to the
> > allegations. Mr. Prebble is making no comment at this time.
> > According to reports police investigated the allegations last year but no
> > charges were laid.
>
> I'm reluctant to comment until he has told his side of the story, but
> does the Labour Party not screen it's candidates before election time?
>
> AB
I was in the Public Parliamentary Gallery this afternoon (along with what
seemed like half of wellington) when Dover Samuels made his personal statement
to the House.
In his statement he said that he himself asked to be releaved of ministerial
duties while those allegations (actually made by Richard Prebble!) were being
investigated. Mr Samuels said that he himself had forwarded the letter
containing the allegations to the police for investigation - which he said was
the propper place for those allegations in the first place, rather than via
letter to the PM.
He spoke with such a tone and such posture and such force, and such conviction
that I am inclined to believe his emphatic and forceful and complete rejection
of those allegations whatever they were - I just happened to be in Parliament
at the time!
TTFN
D.
--
"Some minds need to be cultivated, others ploughed under."
Owen McShane
>
> In article <39501dba...@news.wave.co.nz>, bri...@wave.co.nz wrote:
>
> > >I'm reluctant to comment until he has told his side of the story, but
> > >does the Labour Party not screen it's candidates before election time?
> >
> >
> > while they are simply allegations. Allegations are very easy to
> > make. They are serious, whether he is guilty or innocent, and should
> > be treated seriously.
> >
> > Note it's not possible to screen anyone against the possibility of
> > false allegations of sexual misconduct.
> >
> >
>
> That's true about false allegations, but I note that Mr Samuels has
> stood down from his post - it does look ominous.
>
It looks ominour for Prebble who is starting to look like the stupid
republicans who took on Clinton. This new puritanism offends me. Is
there a grown man on this group who did not desperately want to bonk a
fifteen year old in his youth or even when grown. Girls are reaching
puberty as early as 8 and eleven is becoming the norm. Heaps of them are
sexually active as hell be the time they are thirteen. They could fool
me and in many cases I would be delighted to be fooled.
Soon if you want you son to go into politics you will have to castrate
him.
Denver Fletcher
news:3950275...@nntp.iprolink.co.nz...
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:59:48 +1200, Col <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:
>
> >Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his
ministerial
> >responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
> >Mr. Samuels has stood down after a letter about the matter was sent
to the Prime
> >Minister's Department yesterday. Radio New Zealand is reporting
that ACT leader
> >Richard Prebble has also written a letter to the PM in relation to
the
> >According to reports police investigated the allegations last year
but no
> >charges were laid.
>
>
>
>
> Richard Prebble.
>
> Who ran a baseless campaign against John Tamihere for six months,
> calling in the Serious Fraud Office and the police to investigate
> allegations by Prebble that were found to be utterly without
> foundation.
>
> Prebble's constant Maori bashing in the name of seeking the redneck
> vote is utterly repugnant IMO.
>
> Wait and see what comes of this before judging Samuels, who has
almost
> as many enemies in the Labour Party as Tamihere has, and for much
the
> same reasons -- both oppose Maori dependency on the state.
>
> Which ironically one would have thought Prebble would admire them
for.
Possibly Mr Prebble is quite rightly offended by these peoples ripping
off the system while claiming to be working for the bettrerment of
"their people" (a phrase which in itself reveals their skin color
based preferences, but no matter).
As I recall Mr Tamihere was NOT exonerated the judge simply said it
was beyond his jurisdiction. Let's just see how this one turns out
before we decide who's kidding who, eh?
CHEERS, Denver
Brian M. Harmer
<omcs...@wk.planet.gen.nz> wrote:
>Brian M. Harmer wrote:
>> Ummm ... there is a slight difference in that in this case the
>> allegation appears to involve sex with someone below the legal age.
>> If that turns out to be true, then he is no different to Bert Potter.
>If every man who bonked a teenager twenty years ago is going to be
>charged with "serious sexual offenses" we had better start building a
>hell of a lot of gaols.
Perhaps ... but he was allegedly 44 and she was (allegedly) 15.
That is, as I suggested before, heading into Centrepoint territoy.
>This looks more like a case of blackmail to me.
That I agree with.
>And Helen Clarke has
>outwitted Preb who is starting to look like the stupid republicans
>chasing Clinton.
That too.
>The new puritans can huff and puff all they like but
>people secretly admire sexually active folk andthey all know that people
>who are successful in politics have "charisma" which is newspeak for
>"sex appeal."
Sorry, we part company there. I see nothing charismatic or admirable
in middle aged men taking advantage of very young girls. Randy is not
the same as virile. (Of course this has yet to be proven in the case
in question).
>And whatever happened to the statute of limitations?
I am pretty certain it does not apply to any criminal proceeding.
See what you make of it:
http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/reprint/text/1950/an/065.html
Aaron Bhatnagar
<davidrmur...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> He spoke with such a tone and such posture and such force, and such
> conviction
> that I am inclined to believe his emphatic and forceful and complete
> rejection
> of those allegations whatever they were - I just happened to be in
> Parliament
> at the time!
>
> TTFN
> D.
You mean like "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms Lewinsky!"
AB
Owen McShane
>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:59:48 +1200, Col <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his ministerial
> >responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
> >Mr. Samuels has stood down after a letter about the matter was sent to the Prime
> >Minister's Department yesterday. Radio New Zealand is reporting that ACT leader
> >Richard Prebble has also written a letter to the PM in relation to the
> >According to reports police investigated the allegations last year but no
> >charges were laid.
>
> Before leaping to conclusions, look who is making the allegations.
>
> Richard Prebble.
>
> Who ran a baseless campaign against John Tamihere for six months,
> calling in the Serious Fraud Office and the police to investigate
> allegations by Prebble that were found to be utterly without
> foundation.
>
> Prebble's constant Maori bashing in the name of seeking the redneck
> vote is utterly repugnant IMO.
>
> Wait and see what comes of this before judging Samuels, who has almost
> as many enemies in the Labour Party as Tamihere has, and for much the
> same reasons -- both oppose Maori dependency on the state.
>
> Which ironically one would have thought Prebble would admire them for.
>
> Gort! Klaatu barada nikto!
I agree. Prebble has blown it with this one.
Samuels is one of the best of the Maori MPs and it looks like a case of
blackmail and extortion to me more than a "serious sexual offence."
Remember Jerry Lee Lewis?
Owen McShane
absolute diversion and Helen Clarke has totally outplayed him by
agreeing to let Dover stand down. She is right. There is no target to
shoot at. At least it has taken the heat of Todd and his horse.
Owen McShane
>
> <pip...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:zkY35.2560$lE26.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>
> [snip]
>
> > I am just NOT interested in other peoples sex lives....
> > Mark Todd..then a politician...really who cares??????
>
> having sex with her..
>
> Sarns
have fooled me.
Newsman
>
><pip...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:zkY35.2560$lE26.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>
>[snip]
>
>> Am I a weirdo?????
>> I am just NOT interested in other peoples sex lives....
>> Mark Todd..then a politician...really who cares??????
>
>
>I guess with Samuels it's the fact that she was meant to be underage when he was
>having sex with her..
On the Holmes show this evening it was stated that the girl was born
in 1968 and that the alleged offence had taken place in 1984. But
Helen Clark followed that up by divulging that Samuels had told her
that an alleged abortion had taken place in 1986.
In a momentary lapse of my customary gustatory rigour I perforce
partook of an emergency Burger King 'BK Chicken Meal' last evening, at
Burger King Lambton Quay.
I was surprised to see at a table across from me one Rodney Hide who
was engaged in quiet discourse with a blond-haired lady whose age I
would have put at between 30 and 35. They got up and left, dumping
their respective tray debris in the trash bins as they went. Their
seeming dispositions towards each other suggested a business-type
meeting of some sort.
One wonders...
Newsman
Idiot/Savant
>Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his ministerial
>responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
>Mr. Samuels has stood down after a letter about the matter was sent to the Prime
>Minister’s Department yesterday. Radio New Zealand is reporting that ACT leader
>Richard Prebble has also written a letter to the PM in relation to the
>allegations. Mr. Prebble is making no comment at this time.
And so Paula Jones-style politics comes to NZ. Bankrolled of
course by ACT.
--
Idiot/Savant http://homepages.flat.net.nz/~mfn-0056/
Not ideologically pure
Daniel Silva
news:39508E...@wk.planet.gen.nz...
> It looks ominour for Prebble who is starting to look like the stupid
> republicans who took on Clinton. This new puritanism offends me. Is
> there a grown man on this group who did not desperately want to bonk a
> fifteen year old in his youth or even when grown.
I am about the same age as Samuels was when this incident was alleged to
have happened. I can assure you that I have no desire to bonk a fifteen year
old child.
> Girls are reaching
> puberty as early as 8 and eleven is becoming the norm. Heaps of them are
> sexually active as hell be the time they are thirteen. They could fool
> me and in many cases I would be delighted to be fooled.
> Soon if you want you son to go into politics you will have to castrate
> him.
And if you got near one of my daughters, I would have been delighted to give
you a hand with that task.
No, I have no time for political puritans either. But, if anyone is coming
out of this looking very foolish, it is Helen Clark, who was happy to hush
it up when she first learned of the facts, but did not hesitate to dump her
Minister as soon as she got wind that the little secret was about to go
public.
Peter
aa...@surnamegoeshere.co.nz pontificates...
>
[snip]
>>
>
>Err, I think you mean NZ First candidate Suzanne Bruce, who has left for
>Australia with her partner, following allegations of GST fraud and
>cruelty to animals. If this is the case, I suggest you withdraw the word
>ACT and replace it with NZ First, and work harder at getting simple
>facts right.
>
I withdraw and apologise - my memory must have slipped a cog.
Peter
Peter Metcalfe
brian....@vuw.ac.nz says...
It does for certain minor offenses for which one cannot
be charged more than six months after the fact.
In some cases, the Bill of Rights does give similar protection
including one notorious rape case.
--Peter Metcalfe
Aaron Bhatnagar
new...@paridise.net.nz (Newsman) wrote:
> >
> >I guess with Samuels it's the fact that she was meant to be underage
> >when he was
> >having sex with her..
>
> On the Holmes show this evening it was stated that the girl was born
> in 1968 and that the alleged offence had taken place in 1984. But
> Helen Clark followed that up by divulging that Samuels had told her
> that an alleged abortion had taken place in 1986.
>
> In a momentary lapse of my customary gustatory rigour I perforce
> partook of an emergency Burger King 'BK Chicken Meal' last evening, at
> Burger King Lambton Quay.
>
> I was surprised to see at a table across from me one Rodney Hide who
> was engaged in quiet discourse with a blond-haired lady whose age I
> would have put at between 30 and 35. They got up and left, dumping
> their respective tray debris in the trash bins as they went. Their
> seeming dispositions towards each other suggested a business-type
> meeting of some sort.
>
> One wonders...
>
> Newsman
What are you wondering then Newsman?
AB
Aaron Bhatnagar
wrote:
> >Err, I think you mean NZ First candidate Suzanne Bruce, who has left for
> >Australia with her partner, following allegations of GST fraud and
> >cruelty to animals. If this is the case, I suggest you withdraw the word
> >ACT and replace it with NZ First, and work harder at getting simple
> >facts right.
> >
>
> I withdraw and apologise - my memory must have slipped a cog.
>
> Peter
Apology accepted - the poster will move on to the next topic...
AB
tsja...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>
>Who ran a baseless campaign against John Tamihere for six months,
>calling in the Serious Fraud Office and the police to investigate
>allegations by Prebble that were found to be utterly without
>foundation.
>
>--
>Gort! Klaatu barada nikto!
I can remember when this John Tamihere said my brother David is
innocent.
mr.scebe
Klaatu <gort@nowhereDIE*SPAMMERcom> wrote in message
news:3950275...@nntp.iprolink.co.nz...
> Prebble's constant Maori bashing in the name of seeking the redneck
> vote is utterly repugnant IMO.
>
Have to agree with your sentiment. It was the one thing that stopped me from
giving ACT my party vote at the last election.
--
Mr Scebe
"I don't want New Zealanders waking up each morning wondering what mad, new
initiative the government will inflict on them next." ~ Helen Clarke 8/5/99
David Wardley
Owen McShane <omcs...@wk.planet.gen.nz> wrote in message
snip
> Soon if you want you son to go into politics you will have to
castrate
> him.
> --
Now you're talking.
Rgds
mr.scebe
> Am I a weirdo?????
I don't know you so i can't comment. Ask a friend :)
> I am just NOT interested in other peoples sex lives....
> Mark Todd..then a politician...really who cares??????
I don't care about his sex life, but if the drug allegations are true then
it has an impact on his selection for the Olympics.
Sarns
[snip]
> Time will tell. But I think there is more to this that we haven't heard.
> One interesting part to be fully heard yet is how the reputable trustworthy
> Mother, has just finished a lengthy prison term.
.
I guess it depends what the mother was in for huh..... and whether she was in prison
for something untrustworthy or because of a series of other events.... assuming is a
very dangerous thing newsman
Sarns
anzacis
become our first President.
"Idiot/Savant" <id...@not-flat.net.nz> wrote in message
news:395091c6...@news.flat.net.nz...
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:59:48 +1200, Col <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his
ministerial
> >responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
> >Mr. Samuels has stood down after a letter about the matter was sent to
the Prime
Brian Sandle
: Sarns wrote:
:>
:> <pip...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:zkY35.2560$lE26.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
:>
:> [snip]
:>
:> > Am I a weirdo?????
:> > I am just NOT interested in other peoples sex lives....
:> > Mark Todd..then a politician...really who cares??????
:>
:> having sex with her..
:>
:> Sarns
: YOu mean there are no underage girls having sex out there? You could
: have fooled me.
Do you think that what import sex has had has changed over the years?
Nowdays, possibly because of artificial light, some aspects of sexual
maturity have arrived at an earlier age.
harry
> Is there a grown man on this group who did not desperately want to bonk a
> fifteen year old in his youth or even when grown.
Hmmm, there's no question mark here, but I personally
wouldn't consider touching a 15 year old (even if I wasn't
attached). I think it's sick actually.
(harry)
Roger
>Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his ministerial
>responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
On the same day as the Labour Government STUFFED the West Coast with
the banning of rimu logging, bringing economic hard ship to thousands
and upsetting the social balance of and already depressed area,
we have a Minister Resign for allegedly having a nookie 14 yrs ago.
Roger
Newsman
?
Please check your attributions.
As for "assuming" as you put it, what about...
>I guess with Samuels it's the fact that she was meant to be underage when he was
>having sex with her..
>
>Sarns
>
Eh?
Please now explain the difference between "guess" and "assume" in the
context of the above extract of your post.
Newsman
khayward
>
>
>After hearing the family's spokesman say " .......as far as she
>remembers......." he said that at least two or three times. If
she had sex
>with Samuels, and an abortion, before the age of 16, surely she
would have
>documents, firm evidence, witnesses to the abortion, etc... s.
Not just "
>as far as she remembers....".
Well, yes...if the abortion took place in NZ. As far as I can
remember, abortions, where the mother's health (mental or
physical) was in danger, were legal in NZ fourteen years ago. If
she had a legal abortion, there certainly would be medical
records and witnesses. Her parents/guardians would have also had
to givewritten permission or she would have had to have gone to
court. Even if she went to Australia, there should still be
records.
Karen Hayward
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
khayward
>"Anthony Mersey"
>
>I think Prebbs made a serious political mistake doing this
grubby little
>deed himself.
I seem to recall that Prebble has a long history of smearing
other politicians, especially those of a different race/colour.
Doesn't quite fit when you consider that Prebble's wife is an
Islander...Samoan, I think.
khayward
>I am pretty certain it does not apply to any criminal
proceeding.
>
I think that may depend on the severity of the crime and whether
there was a complaint laid, investigation started or court
proceedings started or completed.
The statue of limitations does not apply in regards to murder. As
far as rape and other sexual crimes are concerned...I recall a
case in Wellington, where the offender/s fled to Australia. One
returned very close to the expiration of seven years. He was
never prosecuted as by that time his alleged victim was married
and pregnant. I remember that the statute of limitations was
mentioned in this case....as apparently the offender had not been
charged before he fled the country.
khayward
>On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:33:56 +1200, Owen McShane
>>And whatever happened to the statute of limitations?
>I am pretty certain it does not apply to any criminal
proceeding.
Again this comes from memory (which can be faulty!) but I think
that the statue of limitations does not apply, in crimes of
a sexual nature, when the victim was a minor at the time of the
offense.
Roger
>Standing down is not resigning Roger and the Gov't stuffed the West coast some
>months ago.
The West Coast Deal was signed yesterday.
Resign / Step down you are splitting a very thin straw.
The alleged nookie is a convenient way for Clark to get a new
Minister.
Roger
> COL
>
>Although we modern persons tend to take our electric
>lights, radios, mixers, etc., for granted, hundreds
>of years ago people did not have any of these things,
>which is just as well because there was no place to
>plug them in.
FinalJustyce
"Scooter" <sco...@tipnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:jn22ls8ssu4curqj6...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:45:15 +1200, Owen McShane
> <omcs...@wk.planet.gen.nz> wrote:
>
>
> >I agree. Prebble has blown it with this one.
> >Samuels is one of the best of the Maori MPs and it looks like a case of
> >blackmail and extortion to me more than a "serious sexual offence."
> >Remember Jerry Lee Lewis?
>
> Didn't he have a 13 year old wife who happened to be his cousin, neither
of
> which was illegal in his home state, West Virginia?
Think she may have been 14 when married. Some of the southern states allow
14 yr olds to marry with parental permission.
Diane
FinalJustyce
"Scooter" <sco...@tipnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:l032lscgtgdj9clec...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:56:26 +1200, Brian M. Harmer
> <brian....@vuw.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:33:56 +1200, Owen McShane
> ><omcs...@wk.planet.gen.nz> wrote:
>
> >>And whatever happened to the statute of limitations?
> >I am pretty certain it does not apply to any criminal proceeding.
>
> I believe there is a statute of limitations on everything apart from
> murder.
>
I am unfamiliar with the statute of limitations for NZ, however, here in the
US, statute of limitations usually doesn't start running when a child is
involved until that child has reached legal majority (18 over here). In
some instances, delayed discovery comes into play, and can hold off the
statute of limitations--usually used in cases of incest/child molestation
that is blocked by victim until well into adulthood.
Diane
Brian
<davidrmur...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>No. It's just that there was something (je ne se qua - I can't spell in
>french!) about his tone of voice, his posture, etc, (which one rarely sees
>in a politician who is telling a load of lies) which, along with the fact
>that he himself asked in the police to investigate those accusations, led
>me to conclude that he may have been slandered. But this is just my
>reading of the situation that I saw in the House this afternoon :o)
One of the greatest tragedies of too many sexual abuse cases, is that
jurors have mistaken beliefs such as you have : that "truth" can be
determined by "tone of voice", "posture", or maybe even the tarot
cards.
In a crime that our society deems does not require corroborating
evidence to secure a conviction, "guilt" or "innocence" can be simply
determined on the acting abilities of the complainant and the
defendent ...... Can she cry convincingly? Can he speak in a
"believable" voice?
A terrible way to determine justice.
Brian
Brian
<kiwibyrd...@juno.com.invalid> wrote:
>Brian M. Harmer <brian....@vuw.ac.nz> wrote:
>>On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:33:56 +1200, Owen McShane
>>>And whatever happened to the statute of limitations?
>>I am pretty certain it does not apply to any criminal
>proceeding.
>
>Again this comes from memory (which can be faulty!) but I think
>that the statue of limitations does not apply, in crimes of
>a sexual nature, when the victim was a minor at the time of the
>offense.
No statute of limitations.
I happen to agree with this premise, but I also think that the judge
should have the power to dismiss the case, if the passing of time, and
loss of evidence, witnesses etc, would make prosecution grossly unfair
to the defendent.
Brian
Brian
wrote:
>On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:56:26 +1200, Brian M. Harmer
><brian....@vuw.ac.nz> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:33:56 +1200, Owen McShane
>><omcs...@wk.planet.gen.nz> wrote:
>
>>>And whatever happened to the statute of limitations?
>>I am pretty certain it does not apply to any criminal proceeding.
>
>I believe there is a statute of limitations on everything apart from
>murder.
>
No
Brian
Klaatu
You believe incorrectly.
The only "statute of limitations" is on civil matters such as tax
evasion.
Surely you have noticed the procession of adult women (and their
ACC-funded therapists) in the courts claiming they were raped or
molested as very young children?
The allegations against Dover Samuels seem to be another kind of
gold-digging. It is reported that the woman's "uncle" attempted to get
money from Dover but was told to go away. So he went to Prebble.
Robert Howard
Aaron Bhatnagar <aaron@_deletemehere_bhatnagar.co.nz> wrote in article
<aaron-ACD79D....@news.clear.net.nz>...
>
> I'm reluctant to comment until he has told his side of the story, but
> does the Labour Party not screen it's candidates before election time?
I don't think much of Dover Samuels as a person. What he admits to is bad
enough. He admits to getting a 17 year old girl pregnant and giving her an
abortion when he was 44. While that might not be illegal it is very poor
behaviour. Ask any parent with a 17 year old daughter.
I think Helen Clark should ask for and accept his resignation. My comment
is not political and would apply to any member of parliament.
Bob Howard.
Robert Howard
Col <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in article
<gntQObtIz8xQVCwZ+FseLcKl=g=Y...@4ax.com>...
>
> Helen Clark was told last year by the complainent and she was assured by
Samuals
> it was not correct. She accepted that.
That is politically normal. The biggest sin a member of parliament can
commit is to lie to parliament and to his leader. The leader always assumes
the member is telling the truth. If the member lies he is automatically
out.
Bob Howard.
Robert Howard
...Tom <to...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in article
<stc1ls89ujfl45ehd...@4ax.com>...
> >
> >Hmmm, there's no question mark here, but I personally
> >wouldn't consider touching a 15 year old (even if I wasn't
> >attached). I think it's sick actually.
>
> What about a 15 year who looked and acted 18 - 20 and pretended to be
> that age?
>
> I certainly know I wouldn't have a clue what age young women were
> between 15 and say 22. Could you pick if showed a series of photos?
I have never wanted to touch any girl young enough to be my daughter. I
don't believe a 15 year old girl would fool a 40+ man over a period of
time.
Bob Howard.
R Molony
>Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his ministerial
>responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
Some of Mr Prebbles Sponsors use false allegations of sexual
misconduct as part of their normal trading practices. Is this merely
one of those incidents. Remembering that these perpetrators are well
able to pay for false witnesses.
If any of those sponsors wish to deny my allegations please do so in a
public forum.
Bob
Kerry
<kiwibyrd...@juno.com.invalid> wrote:
>"Simon Pleasants" <simonpsp...@the.net.nz> wrote:
>>"Anthony Mersey"
>>
>>I think Prebbs made a serious political mistake doing this
>grubby little
>>deed himself.
>
>I seem to recall that Prebble has a long history of smearing
>other politicians, especially those of a different race/colour.
>
>Doesn't quite fit when you consider that Prebble's wife is an
>Islander...Samoan, I think.
Solomon islander
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brevity is the soul of lingerie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kerry
<omcs...@wk.planet.gen.nz> wrote:
>Brian Sandle wrote:
>>
>> In nz.politics Owen McShane <omcs...@wk.planet.gen.nz> wrote:
>> : Sarns wrote:
>> :>
>> :> <pip...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:zkY35.2560$lE26.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>> :>
>> :> [snip]
>> :>
>> :> > Am I a weirdo?????
>> :> > I am just NOT interested in other peoples sex lives....
>> :> > Mark Todd..then a politician...really who cares??????
>> :>
>> :> I guess with Samuels it's the fact that she was meant to be underage when he was
>> :> having sex with her..
>> :>
>> :> Sarns
>> : YOu mean there are no underage girls having sex out there? You could
>> : have fooled me.
>>
>> Do you think that what import sex has had has changed over the years?
>>
>> Nowdays, possibly because of artificial light, some aspects of sexual
>> maturity have arrived at an earlier age.
>The has just been a major study which shows that on average young women
>are reaching puberty much earlier than a generation ago and that
>something like only one in 150 eight your old girls would be maturing
>now it is something like one in *. My numbers may be wrong but the trend
>was of that order. Someone pointed out that many young women are having
>sex today younger than the age when their mothers reached puberty.
There is a trend towards earlier puberty in females. Almost all the
studies suggest the reasons are nutritional, in many parts of the
world modern agriculture lead to more continuous supplies of food.
Young women living in countries where there is a shortage of food tend
to later puberty, in more aflluent countries, earlier puberty.
(warmer countries earlier, colder countries later is much less
significant than food)
If it was light the boys would be getting younger too, and they don,t
appear to be. (takes less food to nourish a spermatazoon than a
foetus)
Robert Howard
R Molony <mo...@ww.co.nz> wrote in article
<3951128...@news.ww.co.nz>...
> Col <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his
ministerial
> >responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
>
> Some of Mr Prebbles Sponsors use false allegations of sexual
> misconduct as part of their normal trading practices.
The information you appear to have could allow aggrieved parties to sue
Richard Prebble and his sponsors for large sums of money. There might even
be evidence for criminal prosecution. I will look forward to your next post
listing your allegations - or are your allegations equally false?
Bob Howard.
Idiot/Savant
>>Was Dover married at the time that this relationship with the young girl
>>happened?
>>
> What difference does that make ?
Some people are still hung-up about adultery.
Hell, some people are hung-up about fornication.
FinalJustyce
Owen wrote:> > > >I agree. Prebble has blown it with this one.
> > > >Samuels is one of the best of the Maori MPs and it looks like a case
of
> > > >blackmail and extortion to me more than a "serious sexual offence."
> > > >Remember Jerry Lee Lewis?
> > >
Scooter wrote:> > > Didn't he have a 13 year old wife who happened to be his
cousin, neither
> > of
> > > which was illegal in his home state, West Virginia?
> >
I wrote:> > Think she may have been 14 when married. Some of the southern
states allow
> > 14 yr olds to marry with parental permission.
> >
Owen wrote> That's it but it was interesting how it drove the UK media into
a frenzy
> and I think his concerts were cancelled etc. IT was the beginning of the
> end of his carreer at that time.
> --
I can honestly say I don't remember much about Jerry Lee Lewis, except for
the fact that he married his young cousin, and that she was one of several
wives that he has had. And that he was old enough to be her father at the
time of the marriage. The scary part, IMO, is that 14 yr olds can legally
marry with permission. After all, isn't that the age when they are supposed
to be just starting dating?
Diane
KaTnDaHaT
>Could be, it's just a reflection of the current "values" of our
>society. We accept things these days, that would not have been
>acceptable 14 or 20 years ago.
Mnnn and if you go back 80 years or more then it was perfectly
acceptable to be 44 and have a wife even of 16-17 yrs old.
I guess it really depends on where you stand and look from.
khayward
>
>khayward <kiwibyrd...@juno.com.invalid> wrote in message
>news:2fed96f0...@usw-ex0104-026.remarq.com...
>> "Simon Pleasants" <simonpsp...@the.net.nz> wrote:
>> >"Anthony Mersey"
>> >
>> >I think Prebbs made a serious political mistake doing this
>> grubby little
>> >deed himself.
>>
>> I seem to recall that Prebble has a long history of smearing
>> other politicians, especially those of a different
race/colour.
>>
>> Doesn't quite fit when you consider that Prebble's wife is an
>> Islander...Samoan, I think.
>
quite
>ironic, because I remember he was almost moved to tears when he
was talking
>about the indigenous Fijians, after the latest coup attempt in
Fiji.
>
>cheers,
>
His first wife was Fijian...his second is a Soloman Islander,
from what others have said. He's always struck me as rather a
racist idiot.
khayward
>On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:54:12 -0700, khayward
><kiwibyrd...@juno.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>I am pretty certain it does not apply to any criminal
>>proceeding.
>>
>>that the statue of limitations does not apply, in crimes of
>>a sexual nature, when the victim was a minor at the time of the
>>offense.
>
>
>No statute of limitations.
Is that just for sexual offences where the victim was a minor or
for all sexual offences?
I have this feeling that it only applies to the former and not
the latter. I think that the times that I assisted with
collecting evidence from adult sexual assault victims, that the
evidence was only kept for a certain length of time.
>
>I happen to agree with this premise, but I also think that the
judge
>should have the power to dismiss the case, if the passing of
time, and
>loss of evidence, witnesses etc, would make prosecution grossly
unfair
>to the defendent.
>
I agree with you there.
khayward
>
>"khayward" <kiwibyrd...@juno.com.invalid> wrote in message
Doctors
>surgery for a check up, then "next thing she was having an
abortion." ...
>
>Umm, yeah, right, sure.
>
Seems rather dodgy. If it was a legal abortion then there should
be records...if it wasn't, then heads should roll.
khayward
>
>Brian Sandle <bsa...@southern.co.nz> wrote in message
>[snip]
>
>> From the interview it seemed that Dover had arranged, maybe
taken the
>> girl to an abortion and that she may not have realised what
was happening
>> until the process was about taking place, acccording to what
had been
>> represented. That seems somewhat dubious to me. Is imagination
working as
>> to who would be the father?
>
>
>That's what was said on tv last night also... he took her to the
clinic...filled in
>all the papers and she went in and didn't realise it was for an
abortion.
>
Something definitely smells rotten in the State of Denmark!!
You don't just go to an abortion clinic , fill out the papers
and trot off and have an abortion...it's a little more
complicated than that!!
...Tom
>> Is there a grown man on this group who did not desperately want to bonk a
>> fifteen year old in his youth or even when grown.
>
>Hmmm, there's no question mark here, but I personally
>wouldn't consider touching a 15 year old (even if I wasn't
>attached). I think it's sick actually.
What about a 15 year who looked and acted 18 - 20 and pretended to be
that age?
I certainly know I wouldn't have a clue what age young women were
between 15 and say 22. Could you pick if showed a series of photos?
We are talking about what appears to be a consensual ongoing
relationship where only the debate seems to be over which side of the
line the young woman was, with all of this happening 14 years ago. In
many countries in the world they could have married and no one would
have batted an eye.
I wouldn't consider Mr Samuels actions particularly savoury
personally, but there is a world of difference between his case, even
if the allegations were true, and someone like Bert Potter
...tom
T A R T
khayward <kiwibyrd...@juno.com.invalid> wrote in message
> "Simon Pleasants" <simonpsp...@the.net.nz> wrote:
> >"Anthony Mersey"
> >
> >I think Prebbs made a serious political mistake doing this
> grubby little
> >deed himself.
>
> I seem to recall that Prebble has a long history of smearing
> other politicians, especially those of a different race/colour.
>
> Doesn't quite fit when you consider that Prebble's wife is an
> Islander...Samoan, I think.
Indigenous Fijian? Or maybe that was his last wife. It is indeed quite
ironic, because I remember he was almost moved to tears when he was talking
about the indigenous Fijians, after the latest coup attempt in Fiji.
cheers,
T A R T
Brian Sandle
: Brian Sandle <bsa...@southern.co.nz> wrote:
:>Do you think that what import sex has had has changed over the years?
: Imported sex. Gee .
Yes well we had someone speaking of tourism as being not too far from
prostitution for some in more recent years. We want Newz Ild to be more
than a cheap commodity economy in which you are fighting to live don't we?
:>Nowdays, possibly because of artificial light, some aspects of sexual
:>maturity have arrived at an earlier age.
: What the hell has artificial light to do with maturity. You OK are ya Brian. ?
Physical sexual maturity has been occuring earlier since artificial light
has been in use and the apparent day has been longer. Mammals are quite
controlled by light, even coats change colour.
: COL
: Although we modern persons tend to take our electric
: lights, radios, mixers, etc., for granted, hundreds
: of years ago people did not have any of these things,
: which is just as well because there was no place to
: plug them in.
Which reminds of the early vacuum cleaner salesperson who went to a farm
house and spilled a whole lot of dirt on to the carpet to demonstrate.
They forget to check if the house were connected to power.
Another problem is having appliances designed for a different voltage
from what you have. Perhaps the things stay in the cupboard till they get
used as children's toys.
Or maybe an analogy is the computer hardware without decent software.
David Murray
Aaron Bhatnagar wrote:
> In article <39508B06...@yahoo.com>, David Murray
> <davidrmur...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > He spoke with such a tone and such posture and such force, and such
> > conviction
> > that I am inclined to believe his emphatic and forceful and complete
> > rejection
> > of those allegations whatever they were - I just happened to be in
> > Parliament
> > at the time!
> >
> > TTFN
> > D.
>
> You mean like "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms Lewinsky!"
>
> AB
No. It's just that there was something (je ne se qua - I can't spell in
french!) about his tone of voice, his posture, etc, (which one rarely sees
in a politician who is telling a load of lies) which, along with the fact
that he himself asked in the police to investigate those accusations, led
me to conclude that he may have been slandered. But this is just my
reading of the situation that I saw in the House this afternoon :o)
TTFN
D.
--
Ellen Degeneres: "Hate is a blatant absence of Love."
Aaron Bhatnagar
<davidrmur...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > You mean like "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms Lewinsky!"
> >
> > AB
>
> No. It's just that there was something (je ne se qua - I can't spell in
> french!) about his tone of voice, his posture, etc, (which one rarely sees
> in a politician who is telling a load of lies) which, along with the fact
> that he himself asked in the police to investigate those accusations, led
> me to conclude that he may have been slandered. But this is just my
> reading of the situation that I saw in the House this afternoon :o)
>
> TTFN
> D.
Hmmm - I am reminded of the old joke, most told of Richard Nixon.
"When Nixon wiggles his finger at you, that's when he tells the truth.
When Nixon waves his hands around, that's when he's telling the truth.
When Nixon opens his mouth, that's when you know he is lying."
There is also a distant possibility that Prebble and Samuels are both
telling the truth - that Prebble knows that the girl was underage, and
that Samuels believed that the girl was over the age of consent. Samuels
could still "be telling the truth" if this was the case.
AB
Aaron Bhatnagar
<kiwibyrd...@juno.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> Doesn't quite fit when you consider that Prebble's wife is an
> Islander...Samoan, I think.
>
> Karen Hayward
Doreen Prebble is Solomon Islander, actually. She is the honorary consul
to the Solomons here in NZ. His previous wife was Fijian, BTW.
Sarns
> In nz.politics Col <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> : Brian Sandle <bsa...@southern.co.nz> wrote:
>
> :>Do you think that what import sex has had has changed over the years?
>
> : Imported sex. Gee .
>
> Yes well we had someone speaking of tourism as being not too far from
> prostitution for some in more recent years. We want Newz Ild to be more
> than a cheap commodity economy in which you are fighting to live don't we?
>
>
> :>Nowdays, possibly because of artificial light, some aspects of sexual
> :>maturity have arrived at an earlier age.
>
> : What the hell has artificial light to do with maturity. You OK are ya Brian. ?
>
> Physical sexual maturity has been occuring earlier since artificial light
> has been in use and the apparent day has been longer. Mammals are quite
> controlled by light, even coats change colour.
In the Samuels situation, he knew the girls family...he knew her age
Sarndra
Sarns
Newsman <new...@paridise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3950b19e...@news.paradise.net.nz...
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:30:17 +1200, "Sarns" <su...@inet.net.nz> wrote:
>
> >
> >KIWINEWS <edi...@kiwinews.co.nz> wrote in message
> >news:8ipv1p$o9a$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> Time will tell. But I think there is more to this that we haven't heard.
> >> One interesting part to be fully heard yet is how the reputable trustworthy
> >> Mother, has just finished a lengthy prison term.
> >.
> >
> >I guess it depends what the mother was in for huh..... and whether she was in
prison
> >for something untrustworthy or because of a series of other events.... assuming is
a
> >very dangerous thing newsman
>
> ?
>
> Please check your attributions.
>
> As for "assuming" as you put it, what about...
>
> >I guess with Samuels it's the fact that she was meant to be underage when he was
> >having sex with her..
> >
> >Sarns
> >
>
>
> Please now explain the difference between "guess" and "assume" in the
> context of the above extract of your post.
>
> Newsman
Your post read that because the mother had been in prison she wasn't trustworthy (you
write it with sarcasm)....you don't know the family circumstances that were between
the mother and daughter and so therefore don't assume she was a bad mother....
Sarndra
Sarns
khayward <kiwibyrd...@juno.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2fed96f0...@usw-ex0104-026.remarq.com...
> "Simon Pleasants" <simonpsp...@the.net.nz> wrote:
> >"Anthony Mersey"
> >
> >I think Prebbs made a serious political mistake doing this
> grubby little
> >deed himself.
>
> I seem to recall that Prebble has a long history of smearing
> other politicians, especially those of a different race/colour.
>
> Islander...Samoan, I think.
>
> Karen Hayward
I don't think this one is race based...it think it's solely a bit of dirt and he's
using it....as all politicians seem to do these days...no integrity at all....
Sarndra
Aaron Bhatnagar
Howard" <rho...@thenet.co.nz> wrote:
> > I'm reluctant to comment until he has told his side of the story, but
> > does the Labour Party not screen it's candidates before election time?
>
> I don't think much of Dover Samuels as a person. What he admits to is bad
> enough. He admits to getting a 17 year old girl pregnant and giving her an
> abortion when he was 44. While that might not be illegal it is very poor
> behaviour. Ask any parent with a 17 year old daughter.
>
> I think Helen Clark should ask for and accept his resignation. My comment
> is not political and would apply to any member of parliament.
>
> Bob Howard.
Was Dover married at the time that this relationship with the young girl
happened?
AB
KIWINEWS
"Sarns" <su...@inet.net.nz> wrote in message
news:96161861...@kyle.inet.net.nz...
Actually that was my post Sarns, not Newsman.
(you
> write it with sarcasm)....you don't know the family circumstances that
were between
> the mother and daughter and so therefore don't assume she was a bad
mother....
>
> Sarndra
Im sure any woman in jail has to be a good Mother. *chokes*. However,
sarcasm aside, it is quite true we shouldn't judge her because she was in
jail, maybe she is a great Mother...
What I would like to be able to understand though, is why the Mother and
Uncle first went to Dover, asking for money ( allegedly ), then when they
got no as an answer, they went to Prebble?
But then money does make up for sexual impropriety .... or at least that's
what the Mother and Uncle seem to be implying.
Trevor.
KIWINEWS
"khayward" <kiwibyrd...@juno.com.invalid> wrote in message
> "KIWINEWS" <edi...@kiwinews.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> >
> >After hearing the family's spokesman say " .......as far as she
> >remembers......." he said that at least two or three times. If
> she had sex
> >with Samuels, and an abortion, before the age of 16, surely she
> would have
> >documents, firm evidence, witnesses to the abortion, etc... s.
> Not just "
> >as far as she remembers....".
>
> Well, yes...if the abortion took place in NZ. As far as I can
> remember, abortions, where the mother's health (mental or
> physical) was in danger, were legal in NZ fourteen years ago. If
> she had a legal abortion, there certainly would be medical
> records and witnesses. Her parents/guardians would have also had
> to givewritten permission or she would have had to have gone to
> court. Even if she went to Australia, there should still be
> records.
>
> Karen Hayward
But Karen, according to the 'Uncle', she thought she was in a Doctors
surgery for a check up, then "next thing she was having an abortion." ...
Umm, yeah, right, sure.
Trevor.
fran...@nospam.ihug.co.nz
> This latest smear is classic Prebble. Just as in the Tamihere case, it's
> not *him* that's making these terrible allegations - he's just passing
> on the concerns of some citizens. And if there proves to be nothing in
> it, then, hey, it's not his fault ...
Not to mention that the 'concerned citizens' wanted Samuels to set up a
'trust fund'. When he wouldn't, they started sending letters. Am I the
only one to smell blackmail?
Even if it is all true, Samuels and Prebble aren't the only sleazeballs
involved.
Frank.
Aaron Bhatnagar
wrote:
> >Maori Affairs Minister Dover Samuels has been stood down from his
> >ministerial
> >responsibilities following allegations of sexual misconduct.
>
> Some of Mr Prebbles Sponsors use false allegations of sexual
> misconduct as part of their normal trading practices. Is this merely
> one of those incidents. Remembering that these perpetrators are well
> able to pay for false witnesses.
> If any of those sponsors wish to deny my allegations please do so in a
> public forum.
Yes please. Tell me, which of Richard Prebble's "sponsors" use false
allegations of sexual misconduct? Which false witnesses? Please tell me
of the incidents also.
AB
fran...@nospam.ihug.co.nz
> It will surely depend on the age of the girl in 1984
Yes... which confuses me. NEITHER side has come up with a definitive
statement of the girl's age at the time.
It seems to me that it would have been very easy for Dover Samuels to
get a copy of her birth certificate and prove that there was no
illegality. In which case there's no problem. Conversely, it would have
been very easy for Richard Prebble to get a copy of her birth
certificate to prove his case.
Why has neither side come up with this most basic, definitive piece of
evidence?
Frank.
KIWINEWS
"Roger" <cath...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:39510dde...@news.ihug.co.nz...
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:41:35 +1200, Col <c.fr...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
<snip>
.
>
> Resign / Step down you are splitting a very thin straw.
> The alleged nookie is a convenient way for Clark to get a new
> Minister.
>
> Roger
He stepped down by his own accord, and it is temporary until after the
police investigation - which he asked for.
Hardly done to get Clark a new Minister.
Trevor.
KIWINEWS
Yes Sarndra, and he says she was 16 - a7.
Trevor.
Russell Brown
>
> "KIWINEWS" <edi...@kiwinews.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> >
> >After hearing the family's spokesman say " .......as far as she
> >remembers......." he said that at least two or three times. If
> she had sex
> >with Samuels, and an abortion, before the age of 16, surely she
> would have
> >documents, firm evidence, witnesses to the abortion, etc... s.
> Not just "
> >as far as she remembers....".
>
> Well, yes...if the abortion took place in NZ. As far as I can
> remember, abortions, where the mother's health (mental or
> physical) was in danger, were legal in NZ fourteen years ago. If
> she had a legal abortion, there certainly would be medical
> records and witnesses. Her parents/guardians would have also had
> to givewritten permission or she would have had to have gone to
> court. Even if she went to Australia, there should still be
> records.
>
This is the element of the story related by the "uncle" that I find
impossible to swallow. We were invited to believe last night that a 45
year old man was able to take a 17 (or 15, whichever) year old girl to a
public hospital, sign all the forms and have her put on the operating
table without her even *knowing* she was having an abortion. Sorry, but
the abortion law just doesn't work that way. Where were the certifying
consultants?
And then, allegedly, she had no medical follow-up, despite suffering a
haemorrhage and subsequent infection, which rendered her sterile -
leading to the blackmail, er, sorry, claim for compensation ...
I don't think so.
Cheers,
RB