THE MISSING GUN
Denver Fletcher
headlines were everywhere the same, from Australia to Nigeria. This time
the shooting occurred at a university, the Appalachian Law School. As
usual, there were calls for more gun control.
Yet in this age of "gun-free school zones," one fact was missing from
virtually all the news coverage: The attack was stopped by two students who
had guns in their cars.
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/38115.htm
Tim Scrivens
Denver Fletcher <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:zHQ48.1074$ee5....@news02.tsnz.net...
Unfortunately, the three with bazookas, and the pre-schooler with the
flamethrower got there JUST too late to get the "kill".
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Cliff Pratt
shootout outside a Catawba College residence".
"The shooting wa sparked by an argument between students ... at a
campus party."
"..at least one student pulled out a gun and... began firing"
""Four other students ... were wounded in what then turned into a
shootout with security officers..."
(credits AP)
The other half of the story was about the gunning down of a man who
was in a wheelchair as a result of a shooting in the mid 80s.
Cheers,
Cliff
See the happy moron?
He doesnt give a damn.
I wish I was a moron,
By god, perhaps I am!
Denver Fletcher
news:vc2a5ucjj9ghpi6da...@4ax.com...
> "A college football player was killed and four students wounded in a
> shootout outside a Catawba College residence".
>
> "The shooting wa sparked by an argument between students ... at a
> campus party."
>
> "..at least one student pulled out a gun and... began firing"
>
> ""Four other students ... were wounded in what then turned into a
> shootout with security officers..."
>
> (credits AP)
>
> The other half of the story was about the gunning down of a man who
> was in a wheelchair as a result of a shooting in the mid 80s.
I assume there's some sort of implied point in here? Perhaps about how
nasty and evil guns are?
People kill each other Cliff. They've been doing it since long before guns
were available, and will be long after.
That isn't at issue.
The question is: Do you want them to be in a position to defend themselves
or not?
Matt Ledgerwood
> "Cliff Pratt" <enk...@cliffp.com> wrote in message
> news:vc2a5ucjj9ghpi6da...@4ax.com...
>> "A college football player was killed and four students wounded in a
>> shootout outside a Catawba College residence".
>>
>> "The shooting wa sparked by an argument between students ... at a
>> campus party."
>>
>> "..at least one student pulled out a gun and... began firing"
>>
>> ""Four other students ... were wounded in what then turned into a
>> shootout with security officers..."
>>
>> (credits AP)
>>
>> The other half of the story was about the gunning down of a man who
>> was in a wheelchair as a result of a shooting in the mid 80s.
> I assume there's some sort of implied point in here? Perhaps about how
> nasty and evil guns are?
No, about how much easier guns make it to kill other people.
> People kill each other Cliff. They've been doing it since long before guns
> were available, and will be long after.
How many times do you see stories about multiple people
being killed by someone with a knife?
> That isn't at issue.
> The question is: Do you want them to be in a position to defend themselves
> or not?
That is not the question at all. I'm not anti-gun but
I am anti the ease of which you can get guns in the
US. I don't see a problem with NZ's gun laws, they seem
very sensible, and seeing as we get very few gun related
deaths are doing their job.
Denver Fletcher
news:a34orm$37t$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> Denver Fletcher <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > "Cliff Pratt" <enk...@cliffp.com> wrote in message
> > news:vc2a5ucjj9ghpi6da...@4ax.com...
> >> "A college football player was killed and four students wounded in a
> >> shootout outside a Catawba College residence".
> >>
> >> "The shooting wa sparked by an argument between students ... at a
> >> campus party."
> >>
> >> "..at least one student pulled out a gun and... began firing"
> >>
> >> ""Four other students ... were wounded in what then turned into a
> >> shootout with security officers..."
> >>
> >> (credits AP)
> >>
> >> The other half of the story was about the gunning down of a man who
> >> was in a wheelchair as a result of a shooting in the mid 80s.
>
> > I assume there's some sort of implied point in here? Perhaps about how
> > nasty and evil guns are?
>
> No, about how much easier guns make it to kill other people.
Or to defend yourself from same. The moral of the story is that the man in
the wheel chair should've been carrying.
> > People kill each other Cliff. They've been doing it since long before
guns
> > were available, and will be long after.
>
> How many times do you see stories about multiple people
> being killed by someone with a knife?
How often do you see stories about the over 2 million defensive uses of
handguns in the US every year?
> > That isn't at issue.
>
> > The question is: Do you want them to be in a position to defend
themselves
> > or not?
>
> That is not the question at all. I'm not anti-gun but
> I am anti the ease of which you can get guns in the
> US. I don't see a problem with NZ's gun laws, they seem
> very sensible, and seeing as we get very few gun related
> deaths are doing their job.
That's OK, you have a view, and you make a case for it.
Cliff Pratt
<den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>"Cliff Pratt" <enk...@cliffp.com> wrote in message
>news:vc2a5ucjj9ghpi6da...@4ax.com...
>> "A college football player was killed and four students wounded in a
>> shootout outside a Catawba College residence".
>>
>> "The shooting wa sparked by an argument between students ... at a
>> campus party."
>> "..at least one student pulled out a gun and... began firing"
>> ""Four other students ... were wounded in what then turned into a
>> shootout with security officers..."
>>
>
>I assume there's some sort of implied point in here? Perhaps about how
>nasty and evil guns are?
>
What's the matter Denver? Can't you see that it was just luck that the
softie dropped the gun. A twitch or click and it would have ended up
with one or more people with bullets in their brains.
>People kill each other Cliff. They've been doing it since long before guns
>were available, and will be long after.
>
>That isn't at issue.
>
>The question is: Do you want them to be in a position to defend themselves
>or not?
>
That's a leading question. Try asking it in a non-confrontational way.
Have you stopped beating your wife, by the way?
>> >http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/38115.htm
>
This article was written by the notorious gun nut, John R. Lott, JR.
See this:
http://www.tsra.com/LottPage.htm
The site itself is the site of the Texas State Rifle Association.
Denver Fletcher
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:04:10 +1300, "Denver Fletcher"
> <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> >"Cliff Pratt" <enk...@cliffp.com> wrote in message
> >news:vc2a5ucjj9ghpi6da...@4ax.com...
> >> "A college football player was killed and four students wounded in a
> >> shootout outside a Catawba College residence".
> >>
> >> "The shooting wa sparked by an argument between students ... at a
> >> campus party."
> >> "..at least one student pulled out a gun and... began firing"
> >> ""Four other students ... were wounded in what then turned into a
> >> shootout with security officers..."
> >
> >I assume there's some sort of implied point in here? Perhaps about how
> >nasty and evil guns are?
> >
> What's the matter Denver? Can't you see that it was just luck that the
> softie dropped the gun. A twitch or click and it would have ended up
> with one or more people with bullets in their brains.
And?
> >People kill each other Cliff. They've been doing it since long before
guns
> >were available, and will be long after.
> >
> >That isn't at issue.
> >
> >The question is: Do you want them to be in a position to defend
themselves
> >or not?
> >
> That's a leading question. Try asking it in a non-confrontational way.
> Have you stopped beating your wife, by the way?
Not even remotely similar. How about you make a point somewhere in your
posts?
> >> >http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/38115.htm
> >
> This article was written by the notorious gun nut, John R. Lott, JR.
> See this:
>
> http://www.tsra.com/LottPage.htm
>
> The site itself is the site of the Texas State Rifle Association.
And?
Non-confrontationally, does this mean anything at all about the validity of
the article or the facts referred to in it?
Tim Scrivens
> "Matt Ledgerwood" <le...@nat.matrx.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:a34orm$37t$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> > Denver Fletcher <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > How many times do you see stories about multiple people
> > being killed by someone with a knife?
>
>
> How often do you see stories about the over 2 million defensive uses of
> handguns in the US every year?
According to the US department of Stats, you are 7,000 times more likely to
shoot a family member than an intruder, with a gun kept in the house.
My mother is part-Irish, part Italian - if we had had a gun in the house
when I was growing up, I wouldn't be here.
(Just kidding, Mum, really) :-)
Denver Fletcher
news:a378c3$664$1...@hermes.nz.eds.com...
Aah, well, I can see the desirability of *some* exceptions. ;-)
Nice statistic. 7,000 times more likely than *what* ? What do you shoot a
family member with if there isn't a gun in the house? Besides, there's some
peoples family members who deserve shooting, your statistic makes no
reference to this. Intruders are 7,000 times more likely to believe you'll
shoot them than are your family members.
Tim Scrivens
Mine is a stat, yours an opinion.
The family members in the houses without guns aren't shot.
Denver Fletcher
> "Denver Fletcher" <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:kRG58.1718$ee5.1...@news02.tsnz.net...
> > > > > being killed by someone with a knife?
> > > >
> > > > How often do you see stories about the over 2 million defensive
uses
> of
> > > > handguns in the US every year?
> > >
> > > According to the US department of Stats, you are 7,000 times more
likely
> > to
> > > shoot a family member than an intruder, with a gun kept in the house.
> > >
> > > My mother is part-Irish, part Italian - if we had had a gun in the
house
> > > when I was growing up, I wouldn't be here.
> > >
> > > (Just kidding, Mum, really) :-)
> >
> > Aah, well, I can see the desirability of *some* exceptions. ;-)
> >
> > Nice statistic. 7,000 times more likely than *what* ? What do you shoot
a
> > family member with if there isn't a gun in the house? Besides, there's
> some
> > peoples family members who deserve shooting, your statistic makes no
> > reference to this. Intruders are 7,000 times more likely to believe
you'll
> > shoot them than are your family members.
>
> Mine is a stat, yours an opinion.
Yeah, but its a stat quoted in complete ignorance (and one might
justifiably assume, in *some* cases, deliberate obfuscation) of another
stat: your family members and acquaintances are much more likely to murder
you than strangers are.
> The family members in the houses without guns aren't shot.
"Aren't as likely to be shot by other members of the family" might be more
accurate.
And yet still would ignore those situations when you'd be entirely
justified in shooting family members.
Tim Scrivens
.
> >
> > Mine is a stat, yours an opinion.
>
>
> Yeah, but its a stat quoted in complete ignorance (and one might
> justifiably assume, in *some* cases, deliberate obfuscation) of another
> stat: your family members and acquaintances are much more likely to murder
> you than strangers are.
So WHY have a lethal weapon in the house?????
Denver Fletcher
news:RGL58.4471$Lv.5...@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Denver Fletcher <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:7EJ58.1756$ee5.1...@news02.tsnz.net...
> >
> > Yeah, but its a stat quoted in complete ignorance (and one might
> > justifiably assume, in *some* cases, deliberate obfuscation) of another
> > stat: your family members and acquaintances are much more likely to
murder
> > you than strangers are.
>
> So WHY have a lethal weapon in the house?????
Well, that particular stat holds whether there are firearms in the house or
not, so the answer to your question might have something to do with the
notion that while not having one doesn't stop them, having one might.
There are, natch, no guarantees either way. That being the case, I see no
harm in letting poeple choose for themselves.
Tim Scrivens
Myself, I see a difference between losing your temper, picking up a knife,
and chasing your nearest and dearest through the house with it, and picking
up a gun, and it's all over, Rover. At least a knife is less certainly
lethal.
Denver Fletcher
Just proves your missus should be packin too.
Cliff Pratt
Obviously it does.
Cheers,
Cliff
Tim Scrivens
> > Myself, I see a difference between losing your temper, picking up a
> knife,
> > and chasing your nearest and dearest through the house with it, and
> picking
> > up a gun, and it's all over, Rover. At least a knife is less certainly
> > lethal.
>
>
> Just proves your missus should be packin too.
Cool - double homicide!!!
Can we arm the kiddies, too, and REALLY make a family occasion of it?
Denver Fletcher
> Denver Fletcher <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:HNM58.1799$ee5.1...@news02.tsnz.net...
> > > Myself, I see a difference between losing your temper, picking up a
> > knife,
> > > and chasing your nearest and dearest through the house with it, and
> > picking
> > > up a gun, and it's all over, Rover. At least a knife is less
certainly
> > > lethal.
> >
> > Just proves your missus should be packin too.
>
> Cool - double homicide!!!
>
> Can we arm the kiddies, too, and REALLY make a family occasion of it?
If you like. I'm already reconsidering the wisdom of your mothers going
unarmed during your childhood. ;-)
Mary Rosh
Let me get this straight. The fact that a pro-gun cite provides a
link to a piece in a newspaper disqualifies the arguments made in the
newspaper. Is that right? Lott is one of the leading experts in the
world on guns. He has done the largest studies and has examined a
wide variety of different laws. Several Nobel prize winners have
praised his work and he has held positions at the University of
Chicago, Yale, Stanford, and the Wharton Business School and this is
the best that you can come up with to disqualify what he wrote? Just
look at the academics from Harvard and other prestigious universities
who have provided blurbs for the back of his book. Isn't it amazing
that what defensive gun uses that have stopped public school shootings
and bombings and other violent crimes get almost no newscoverage?
Mary Rosh
> Denver Fletcher <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:yQL58.1787$ee5.1...@news02.tsnz.net...
> > "Tim Scrivens" <scri...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> > news:RGL58.4471$Lv.5...@news.xtra.co.nz...
> > > Denver Fletcher <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> > > news:7EJ58.1756$ee5.1...@news02.tsnz.net...
> > > > > Mine is a stat, yours an opinion.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, but its a stat quoted in complete ignorance (and one might
> > > > justifiably assume, in *some* cases, deliberate obfuscation) of
> another
> > > > stat: your family members and acquaintances are much more likely to
> murder
> > > > you than strangers are.
> > >
> > > So WHY have a lethal weapon in the house?????
> >
> >
> > Well, that particular stat holds whether there are firearms in the house
> or
> > not, so the answer to your question might have something to do with the
> > notion that while not having one doesn't stop them, having one might.
> >
> > There are, natch, no guarantees either way. That being the case, I see no
> > harm in letting poeple choose for themselves.
>
> Myself, I see a difference between losing your temper, picking up a knife,
> and chasing your nearest and dearest through the house with it, and picking
> up a gun, and it's all over, Rover. At least a knife is less certainly
> lethal.
>
A kinfe is less lethal and it is also less of a defense. As a woman,
who weighs 114 lbs, what am I supposed to do if I am confronted by a
200 lbs. man? Guns make it easier to kill people, but they also make
it easier for people to defend themselves and save lives. The
question is what is the net effect and the research by Lott and others
is that guns save many more lives than they cost. As this story so
vividly illustrates, the media just doesn't like to report these
cases.
Tim Scrivens
Mary Rosh <mary...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:23fa92fe.02013...@posting.google.com...
> A kinfe is less lethal and it is also less of a defense. As a woman,
> who weighs 114 lbs, what am I supposed to do if I am confronted by a
> 200 lbs. man? Guns make it easier to kill people, but they also make
> it easier for people to defend themselves and save lives. The
> question is what is the net effect and the research by Lott and others
> is that guns save many more lives than they cost. As this story so
> vividly illustrates, the media just doesn't like to report these
> cases.
I suggest you run away - at 200 lb, he is overweight.....
I guess it depends on whether you think killing someone in an argument is OK
or not.
John Cawston
Now, if she'd had a gun a couple of minutes before conception, or maybe just
after the rabbit test...
JC
Brian Dooley
>"Tim Scrivens" <tim.sc...@nz.eds.com> wrote in message
>news:a378c3$664$1...@hermes.nz.eds.com...
>> "Denver Fletcher" <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
>> news:4Xl58.1482$ee5.1...@news02.tsnz.net...
>> > "Matt Ledgerwood" <le...@nat.matrx.co.nz> wrote in message
>> > news:a34orm$37t$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>> > > Denver Fletcher <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> > > How many times do you see stories about multiple people
>> > > being killed by someone with a knife?
>> >
>> > How often do you see stories about the over 2 million defensive uses of
>> > handguns in the US every year?
That's equivalent to nearly 30,000 pa in NZ.
You are surely not implying that there are that many offenses pa
in NZ which would warrant general availability of handguns.
Or are you implying that we would have that many if handguns
*were* readily available?
How many such instances are there anyway?
There's a Planet site which reports about seven incidents
involving guns per day, ie about 2.5K per year, so you're looking
at 10 times as many.
Brian Dooley
Wellington New Zealand
Brian Dooley
Denver, the most likely firearm you are likely to meet here is a
sawn-off rifle or shotgun. If it's a rifle you're up against and
if you were to go for a concealed pistol, either in the home or
outside, you might have a show, but if it's a shotgun they will
be scraping you up with a shovel.
Good luck.
Denver Fletcher
news:davh5usv27tfur2ag...@4ax.com...
So its quite some time since you've been allowed out at night is it, Master
Dooley?
Mary Rosh
> Mary Rosh <mary...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:23fa92fe.02013...@posting.google.com...
> > A kinfe is less lethal and it is also less of a defense. As a woman,
> > who weighs 114 lbs, what am I supposed to do if I am confronted by a
> > 200 lbs. man? Guns make it easier to kill people, but they also make
> > it easier for people to defend themselves and save lives. The
> > question is what is the net effect and the research by Lott and others
> > is that guns save many more lives than they cost. As this story so
> > vividly illustrates, the media just doesn't like to report these
> > cases.
>
> I suggest you run away - at 200 lb, he is overweight.....
>
> I guess it depends on whether you think killing someone in an argument is OK
> or not.
>
>
>
Do you really think that most women can out run you typical criminal,
a man between say 18 and 24 years of age? Even if I am not wearing
heels, I don't think that there are many men that I could outrun,
especially over a short distance. Unfortunately, women are not as fast
as men on average.
As to me suggesting that I would kill someone over an argument, that
is not a serious response. You obviously don't know what it is to be
seriously threatened by someone who is much stronger than you are. If
a criminal wanted to rape me or beat me or kill me, those are the
cases that I am talking about. I work very late some nights. The
security will only take me to the parking structure, though I
frequently beg for them to go in with me and sometimes I am
successful. What about my being at home alone? What am I supposed to
do then if someone breaks in?
Denver Fletcher
Lie down and spread em, Mary, and hope its only rape they're after. The
Police will provide a nice lady Constable to make you a cup of tea
afterwards. The sick anti-gun mantra is "don't antagonise them" and you'll
be OK. In spite of it being absolutely bullshit, it's still the best they
can do.
Of course, we've all just had a huge example of where that appeasement
mentality leads to (as if WW2 wasn't enough).
Tim Scrivens
We were talking about guns in the home. Bringing in all this other stuff
is, of course, a strawman, and I am supposed to feel deeply sorry for you.
I don't. It looks to me like you have instinctively gone for the most
lethal response possible. What are the chances, in your dark carpark, of
drawing a gun, and having it taken off you, and used against you? After
all, you are both less strong, and less fast than this mythical criminal.
So now, you are in a worse situation than before.
And again, statistics prove that you are several thousand times more likely
to kill a family member than an intruder. If you don't like your family
enough for that, that is entirely your business.
Brian Dooley
On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:06:17 +1300, "Denver Fletcher"
<den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
snip---
>So its quite some time since you've been allowed out at night is it, Master
>Dooley?
>
What kind of firearm do you usually meet up with?
A bazooka?
Denver Fletcher
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:06:17 +1300, "Denver Fletcher"
> <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> snip---
>
> >So its quite some time since you've been allowed out at night is it,
Master
> >Dooley?
> >
> What kind of firearm do you usually meet up with?
>
> A bazooka?
Not at all, but it's been a long time since I've seen a shotgun abroad in
the city, day or night. OTOH, the airport police have been wearing handguns
for a long time, and the criminals likewise find them relatively easy to
come by.
I know of people who carry them as a matter of course.
Geoff M
<scri...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>Myself, I see a difference between losing your temper, picking up a knife,
>and chasing your nearest and dearest through the house with it, and picking
>up a gun, and it's all over, Rover. At least a knife is less certainly
>lethal.
And you do this often? Good thing you don't have a gun then.
on the other hand, those of us who can manage to control our tempers
a little better than you don't have any problems like this. BTW, it is
not necessary to have a dead body to have a "defensive gun usage" -
Kleck's study showed 99.8% (more or less, not having the book to hand
and to lazy to look it up) of DGUs did not invilve a fatality. In the
vast majority of cases, no shots were fired.
Geoff
Brian Dooley
On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:13:58 +1300, "Denver Fletcher"
<den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>"Brian Dooley" <bri...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
>news:hrrl5u0jrdk6lquab...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:06:17 +1300, "Denver Fletcher"
>> <den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> snip---
>>
>> >So its quite some time since you've been allowed out at night is it,
>Master
>> >Dooley?
>> >
>> What kind of firearm do you usually meet up with?
>>
>> A bazooka?
>
>
>Not at all, but it's been a long time since I've seen a shotgun abroad in
>the city, day or night. OTOH, the airport police have been wearing handguns
>for a long time, and the criminals likewise find them relatively easy to
>come by.
>
>I know of people who carry them as a matter of course.
>
So do I, but that doesn't mean that I know them personally, or
even know who they are.
What do *you* mean?
Denver Fletcher
I know *some* of them personally, (i.e. know who they are), and I know *of*
many others. By many I mean to say, in the region of 20 to 30 that I know
of, and I do assume that more exist, since the culture and means of earning
money which they inhabit is far more prevalent than just those which I have
direct knowledge of or association with.
Tim Scrivens
Geoff M <ge...@ihug.co.nz.DELETE_THIS_PART> wrote in message
news:40an5uoqlp73800h1...@4ax.com...
Cheap, smartarse comment.
Sorry, you have disqualified yourself.
FOAD.
Brian Dooley
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 11:45:59 +1300, "Denver Fletcher"
<den...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Are you then implying that there are (say) some hundreds of
people around Wellington who habitually carry illegal concealed
pistols and that you personally know some of them?