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John Bowes

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Feb 20, 2022, 6:04:59 PMFeb 20
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I can hear Rich lying about fake news. But there are some facts in here that support the call for the end to mandates because they're not achieving anything!

THE HAPS

The protest around parliament continues to grow. The Police say they are unable to act, the Speaker and Government do not know how to act. What is clear is Jacinda Ardern’s ‘kindness’ brand is gone, and better leadership will be needed for New Zealand to navigate the impasse.

Meanwhile David Seymour gets down to to why co-governance is incompatible with universal human rights in an interview with Audrey Young.

THE DATA

Yesterday ACT released numbers derived from the Ministry of Health website that show how many people who test positive for COVID are vaccinated, partially vaccinated, and unvaccinated. The full release with sources and calculations is reproduced below for Free Press readers, along with some commentary about the predictable tut tutting from the media and public health intelligentsia.



Vaccination rates are making little difference to infection rates under Omicron, which means it’s time to ask if the benefits of vaccine rules are still worth the costs to individuals, and social cohesion overall. Based on new evidence, it may be time to move on from Government vaccine mandates.



Taking the infection numbers of the past week by vaccination status, there is now little difference in the likelihood of a fully, partially, or unvaccinated person testing positive with Omicron. This data does not mean that vaccination is not useful or effective.



Vaccination is still your best bet for staying out of hospital, but even strongly pro-vaccine people like me have to confront what new evidence says about infection rates.



In the eight days from Friday 11-Friday 18, when Omicron cases really took off, there were 347 new unvaccinated cases, 140 new partially vaccinated cases, and 7,085 new fully vaccinated cases. These figures are not reported transparently, and have to be derived from the Ministry of Health Website (see notes below for more detail).



Of course, there are far more vaccinated than unvaccinated people, so the raw numbers do not tell the full story. For every 100,000 unvaccinated persons, 225 tested positive. For every 100,000 partially vaccinated persons, 204 tested positive, and for every 100,000 fully vaccinated 178 persons tested positive. (N.B., updated to include Saturday’s cases, these numbers are now 267, 220, and 224)



There are a number of possible explanations for why numbers between infection rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated people should appear so similar. For example, vaccinated people might be more trusting of or able to access the healthcare system, and therefore be more likely to take a test than unvaccinated people.



None of the explanations can really explain the similarity without accepting that vaccination makes a weak difference at best to whether a person tests positive for Omicron, however.



These new figures show how Omicron is changing the game, even since this time last month. On January 19, the Ministry of Health website reported half of all COVID cases up to that date had been unvaccinated and a quarter partially vaccinated. In the past week there have been 20 times more vaccinated cases than unvaccinated.



Those historical figures will be influenced by early stages of the pandemic, when nobody at all was vaccinated. However it is nearly impossible to know by how much with the data the Ministry of Health lets us have. In any event the past data does not change the reality we face now, Omicron is changing the numbers.



These figures are consistent with international evidence. Australia has similar vaccination rates to New Zealand’s but has experienced widespread Omicron outbreaks well beyond those who are vaccinated. In the UK unadjusted rates of infection show for every 100,000 vaccinated people, cases are 2-3 times more prevalent than for those with three shots (see p44 here).



It would be helpful if the Ministry of Health would start transparently publishing data for vaccination rates. At present, they update the cumulative number of vaccinated, partially vaccinated, and unvaccinated cases each day, but the number of new cases each day can only be derived by saving the data and calculating the change from day to day.



We face enormous mistrust and dissatisfaction with Government due to this kind of poor transparency that suppresses free and open debate. The Government should insist on the Ministry of Health making the data transparent, and even providing analysis so that any confounding variables can also be understood.



More importantly, it may be that Government policy needs to change direction. It is difficult to argue that there is not widespread transmission amongst vaccinated people. It seems unlikely that the 347 unvaccinated cases infected 7,085 others, around 20 each, but vaccinated people did not infect each other. This is particularly the case given vaccine mandates have largely segregated unvaccinated people from vaccinated people.



People have been led to believe for over a year that other people being vaccinated would protect them from being being infected themselves. It appears that is no longer true, or at least the effect has been dramatically weakened.



All of this leads to a simple conclusion. If there is little difference in the rates of infection and spread of Omicron between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, then what is the point of segregating them? From the opposite perspective, if segregation is increasingly costly and undesirable, what sort of difference in infection rates would we require to justify it, and is the difference between 178/100,000 and 225/100,000 enough?



It is time to weigh up the costs that vaccine requirements are placing on individuals, on workplaces, and on social cohesion, and ask whether policies that force vaccination in various settings are still worth it. The case is becoming stronger by the day that they are not as Omicron spreads between vaccinated and unvaccinated in a way it did not do with earlier variants, and policies designed to prevent unvaccinated transmission are no longer worth it. It's time to move on.



Technical notes:



This data is compiled from the following sources in the following way. Excuse the lengthy process, but it would not be necessary if the Ministry of Health simply published this data themselves.



Number of vaccinated, partially vaccinated, and unvaccinated cases is calculated from updates on the Ministry of Health Website COVID-19 Case Demographic page, taking previous days’ versions of the page and subtracting the number of cases for each vaccine status in previous days from the present. Previous days' figures are taken from internet archives.



On Friday 11 February (reported on Saturday 12), there had been a total of 4,443 unvaccinated cases, 2,167 partially vaccinated cases, 4,921 fully vaccinated cases, and 2,243 cases under 12 years of age, for which vaccination status is unknown. On Friday 18 February there had been a total of 4790 unvaccinated cases, 2307 partially vaccinated cases, 12,006 fully vaccinated cases, and 4645 cases under 12. Taking the differences, over the eight day period there have been 347 new unvaccinated cases, 140 new partially vaccinated cases, and 7,085 new fully vaccinated cases.



The number of people with each vaccine status is derived from this spreadsheet on the Ministry of Health website.



COVID-19 vaccination data through 15 Feb 2022 (Excel, 850 KB)



From the Sheet ‘DHBofResidenceByEthnicity’ it is possible to derive 3,986,484 fully vaccinated persons and 68,520 partially vaccinated persons, leaving 154,053 unvaccinated persons out of a total population of 4,209,057 people over 12 years of age.



Taking these numbers, 347 unvaccinated cases out of an unvaccinated population of 154,053 persons gives 225 cases per 100,000. 140 partially vaccinated cases out of a partially vaccinated population of 154,053 persons gives 204 cases per 100,000. 7,085 fully vaccinated cases out of a fully vaccinated population of 3,986,484 gives 178 cases per 100,000 people.

Rich80105

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Feb 20, 2022, 10:42:56 PMFeb 20
to
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:04:56 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
<bowes...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I can hear Rich lying about fake news. But there are some facts in here that support the call for the end to mandates because they're not achieving anything!
>
> THE HAPS

I know you did not write it John Bowes as you do not have that good a
vocabulary, but there was no reference to where it came from, so I
have not bothered to read it.


John Bowes

unread,
Feb 20, 2022, 10:51:02 PMFeb 20
to
The spelling and vocabulary lacking imbecile can only make stupid attacks against people! Rich your to useless to try sarcasm it just makes you look like a stupid fucking imbecile blindly swimming in a river of filth like the Labour party!

Unknown

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Feb 20, 2022, 10:59:36 PMFeb 20
to
Entirely standard procedure for you.
Don't read anything that you do not want to learn from.
If PM Cindy didn't say it then ignore it. Right Rich?

Rich80105

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Feb 20, 2022, 11:34:13 PMFeb 20
to
Not at all, but some posters are totally unreliable as to the veracity
of their claims.

Gordon

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Feb 20, 2022, 11:45:22 PMFeb 20
to
On 2022-02-20, John Bowes <bowes...@gmail.com> wrote:

Have you left the URL out?


> I can hear Rich lying about fake news. But there are some facts in
> here that support the call for the end to mandates because
> they're not achieving anything!
>
> THE HAPS
>
> The protest around parliament continues to grow. The Police say
> they are unable to act, the Speaker and Government do not know
> how to act.

Classic! Good wording

> What is clear is Jacinda Ardern’s ‘kindness’ brand is gone,
> and better leadership will be needed for New Zealand to navigate the impasse.
>
> Meanwhile David Seymour gets down to to why co-governance
> is incompatible with universal human rights in an interview with Audrey Young.
>
> THE DATA
>
> Yesterday ACT released numbers derived from the Ministry of Health
> website that show how many people who test positive for COVID are vaccinated,
> partially vaccinated, and unvaccinated. The full release with sources
> and calculations is reproduced below for Free Press readers, along with
> some commentary about the predictable tut tutting from the media and public health intelligentsia.
>
>
>
> Vaccination rates are making little difference to infection rates
> under Omicron,

Agreed


> which means it’s time to ask if the benefits of
> vaccine rules are still worth the costs to individuals, and
> social cohesion overall. Based on new evidence, it may be time to
> move on from Government vaccine mandates.
>
>
>
> Taking the infection numbers of the past week by vaccination status,
> there is now little difference in the likelihood of a fully, partially,
> or unvaccinated person testing positive with Omicron.

Yes, Omicron has all but pushe out Delta.

> This data does not mean that vaccination is not useful or effective.
>
True, it does decrease the severity of the disease, lowers risk of death.



>
> Vaccination is still your best bet for staying out of hospital,
> but even strongly pro-vaccine people like me have to confront what new
> evidence says about infection rates.

Hey, also about Natural Immunity. This is the target, the gold standard. Use
vaccines to lower risk of death while natural immunity is aquired.
>
>
> In the eight days from Friday 11-Friday 18, when Omicron cases really took
> off, there were 347 new unvaccinated cases, 140 new partially vaccinated
> cases, and 7,085 new fully vaccinated cases. These figures are not reported
> transparently, and have to be derived from the Ministry of Health Website
> (see notes below for more detail).

Agreed, we have been on about this have we not Willy.
>
> Of course, there are far more vaccinated than unvaccinated people, so the
> raw numbers do not tell the full story. For every 100,000 unvaccinated persons,
> 225 tested positive. For every 100,000 partially vaccinated persons,
> 204 tested positive, and for every 100,000 fully vaccinated 178 persons
> tested positive. (N.B., updated to include Saturday’s cases, these numbers
> are now 267, 220, and 224)
>
Interesting figures
>
> There are a number of possible explanations for why numbers between
> infection rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated people should appear so similar.

Surely this shows that the vaccines are next to useless at stopping
infection. The rates are the same, or near enough.


>For example, vaccinated people might be more trusting of or able to access the
> healthcare system, and therefore be more likely to take a test than unvaccinated people.
>
> None of the explanations can really explain the similarity without accepting
> that vaccination makes a weak difference at best to whether a person tests
> positive for Omicron, however.
>
Well as it is all Omicron a positive test will be Omicron. However we know
what is meant.

>
> These new figures show how Omicron is changing the game, even since this
> time last month. On January 19, the Ministry of Health website reported
> half of all COVID cases up to that date had been unvaccinated and a
> quarter partially vaccinated. In the past week there have been 20 times
> more vaccinated cases than unvaccinated.
>
>
>
> Those historical figures will be influenced by early stages of the pandemic,
> when nobody at all was vaccinated. However it is nearly impossible to know by
> how much with the data the Ministry of Health lets us have.

The people of NZ have paid for it to be collected, why can not we see it.
The whole lot in raw form. Follow the science yes.

> In any event the past data does not change the reality we face now,
> Omicron is changing the numbers.

Yes Sir re.
>

>
> These figures are consistent with international evidence. Australia
> has similar vaccination rates to New Zealand’s but has experienced >
> widespread Omicron outbreaks well beyond those who are vaccinated.

Of course this is the case. Omicron just infects very well.

> In the UK unadjusted rates of infection show for every 100,000
> vaccinated people, cases are 2-3 times more prevalent than for those with three shots (see p44 here).
>
>
>
> It would be helpful if the Ministry of Health would start
> transparently publishing data for vaccination rates.
> At present, they update the cumulative number of vaccinated,
> partially vaccinated, and unvaccinated cases each day, but
> the number of new cases each day can only be derived by
> saving the data and calculating the change from day to day.
>
The history data is lacking. I have found this annoying at times.
>
>
> We face enormous mistrust and dissatisfaction with Government
> due to this kind of poor transparency that suppresses free
> and open debate. The Government should insist on the Ministry
> of Health making the data transparent, and even providing
> analysis so that any confounding variables can also be understood.
>
Agree totally. All the data, in it raw form released in a timely manner. Yes
please.
>
> More importantly, it may be that Government policy needs
> to change direction. It is difficult to argue that there is
> not widespread transmission amongst vaccinated people.

I think that no one is now claiming that the vaccines do a good job of
preventing Omicron infection. The lowering risk of death remains.

> It seems unlikely that the 347 unvaccinated cases infected 7,085 others,
> around 20 each, but vaccinated people did not infect each other.
> This is particularly the case given vaccine mandates have largely
> segregated unvaccinated people from vaccinated people.

In certain area, conditions. Unvaccinated people are allowed to mingle.
>
> People have been led to believe for over a year that other people
> being vaccinated would protect them from being being infected themselves.
> It appears that is no longer true, or at least the effect has been
> dramatically weakened.
>
> All of this leads to a simple conclusion. If there is little difference
> in the rates of infection and spread of Omicron between vaccinated
> and unvaccinated people, then what is the point of segregating them?
> From the opposite perspective, if segregation is increasingly costly
> and undesirable, what sort of difference in infection rates would we
> require to justify it, and is the difference between 178/100,000
> and 225/100,000 enough?
>
All a bit irrelevant as Omicron is sweeping over the masses, vaxed or
unvaxed, infection happens to both.

> It is time to weigh up the costs that vaccine requirements are placing
> on individuals, on workplaces, and on social cohesion, and ask whether
> policies that force vaccination in various settings are still worth it.
> The case is becoming stronger by the day that they are not as Omicron
> spreads between vaccinated and unvaccinated in a way it did not do
> with earlier variants, and policies designed to prevent unvaccinated
> transmission are no longer worth it. It's time to move on.
>
Some would say a long time ago.

John Bowes

unread,
Feb 21, 2022, 12:49:16 AMFeb 21
to
Speaking for yourself again Rich. Well done in identifying one of your less salubrious habits. But not surprising for someone like you bathing in the Labour parties river of filth...

John Bowes

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Feb 21, 2022, 12:52:27 AMFeb 21
to
On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 5:45:22 PM UTC+13, Gordon wrote:
> On 2022-02-20, John Bowes <bowes...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Have you left the URL out?

No! I get ACTs e-mails along with several others from political parties. The Labour ones are always good for a laugh but never worth posting their fake news to give others a giggle :)

Unknown

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Feb 21, 2022, 1:12:25 AMFeb 21
to
Yes you are that.

jaouad zarrabi

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Oct 4, 2022, 6:44:10 PMOct 4
to
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