Starbucks in its death throes?
-Newsman-
retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
With news of Starbucks wholesale store closures across the US and
Australia (two-thirds to close) how long can the company survive? Not
that I reckon it deserves to from its much vaunted "customer
experience" aspect.
In the current economic climate consumers are now seeking value for
money and value certainly isn't to be found at Starbucks. It never
has been. I've visited two NZ Starbucks in my time. Neither
impressed me. The store ambience was sterile and the coffee
substandard, both in terms of bean and preparation. Never again.
The demise of just one more flim-flam "image" retailer can do nothing
but good.
JohnO
... as long as it is replaced by something better. However in times
such as these it is just as likely to be replaced by a vacant lot. 5
years down the track things will pick up and up will pop a Starbucks
clone.
Me
I read an article arguing that Starbucks were a victim of their own
success. I think they have a point. Good coffee isn't special any more
- most people I know have expresso machines at home, cost per cup
about $0.20 when using premium beans - about $0.10 when using beans that
are okay - probably about the quality of what you'd get at Starbucks.
I see that some Subway franchisees in NZ are not happy campers too. Now
that's a market model that's set up to almost guarantee doom for late
entries - like a pyramid marketing scheme.
Allistar
According to my wife I'm a "coffee snob" because I like good coffee, and I
can tell the difference between beans. I avoid the big name coffee houses
for this reason - I consider a boutique cafe, especially one that only
serves coffee, to have a better quality product. Most of the big chain
stored won't even let you choose the bena your drink is made from - it's
just that stock standard, typically only mid grade bean.
--
A.
thingy
> -Newsman- wrote:
>> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet another
>> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
>>
>> With news of Starbucks wholesale store closures across the US and
>> Australia (two-thirds to close) how long can the company survive? Not
>> that I reckon it deserves to from its much vaunted "customer
>> experience" aspect.
>>
>> In the current economic climate consumers are now seeking value for
>> money and value certainly isn't to be found at Starbucks. It never
>> has been. I've visited two NZ Starbucks in my time. Neither
>> impressed me. The store ambience was sterile and the coffee
>> substandard, both in terms of bean and preparation. Never again.
>>
>> The demise of just one more flim-flam "image" retailer can do nothing
>> but good.
>
> I read an article arguing that Starbucks were a victim of their own
> success. I think they have a point. Good coffee isn't special any more
good coffee? starbucks?
> - most people I know have expresso machines at home, cost per cup about
> $0.20 when using premium beans - about $0.10 when using beans that are
> okay - probably about the quality of what you'd get at Starbucks.
exactly...
> I see that some Subway franchisees in NZ are not happy campers too. Now
> that's a market model that's set up to almost guarantee doom for late
> entries - like a pyramid marketing scheme.
oversold franchises....
I feel sorry for people who bought into these....sometimes...especially
as in the case with subway/starbucks the owner over-supplies franchises...
regards
thing
thingy
> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet another
> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
>
> With news of Starbucks wholesale store closures across the US and
> Australia (two-thirds to close) how long can the company survive? Not
> that I reckon it deserves to from its much vaunted "customer
> experience" aspect.
McCafe coffee is better...in fact its actually not to bad...
> In the current economic climate consumers are now seeking value for
> money and value certainly isn't to be found at Starbucks.
Not so sure that is translating into shopping elsewhere for coffee (ie
value for money), more like ppl are so short of cash the little luxuries
like a coffee go first.
It never
> has been. I've visited two NZ Starbucks in my time. Neither
> impressed me.
weak and watery...
The store ambience was sterile and the coffee
> substandard, both in terms of bean and preparation. Never again.
>
> The demise of just one more flim-flam "image" retailer can do nothing
> but good.
I agree...
I remember some yank, Starbucks ceo? coming over here to NZ (WTGN) and
complaining that Starbucks was not doing well because over burning of
the coffee in an over abundance of nz owned coffee shops which NZers
preferred....yeah right....market forces in operation mate....
regards
Thing
Fred
"thingy" <thi...@not.here.commy> wrote in message
news:00v9m5-...@news.vuw.ac.nz...
> -Newsman- wrote:
>> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet another
>> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
>>
>> With news of Starbucks wholesale store closures across the US and
>> Australia (two-thirds to close) how long can the company survive? Not
>> that I reckon it deserves to from its much vaunted "customer
>> experience" aspect.
>
> McCafe coffee is better...in fact its actually not to bad...
>
I quite agree.
Bobs
If you want fast food coffee - you're best to go to McCafe which makes
better stuff than Starbucks.
sam
People don't go to Starbucks for great coffee, they go for Grande thingo
branded product coffee based products. I've had decently prepared
espresso at Starbucks, not stellar, but the beans are OK, the grind was
right, the tamp was right, the machine was a mint La Marzocco, but the
competition is pretty daunting in Wellington. There are plenty
speciality roasters like Fuel, Mojo, Supreme, Havana, that deliver, set
up your machine, train your staff, its hard for a global franchise to
match that quality control.
Next you will be telling us Dominos and McDonalds and Burger King and
KFC are in danger of going out of business.
-Newsman-
>-Newsman- wrote:
>> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet another
>> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
>>
>> With news of Starbucks wholesale store closures across the US and
>> Australia (two-thirds to close) how long can the company survive? Not
>> that I reckon it deserves to from its much vaunted "customer
>> experience" aspect.
>>
>> In the current economic climate consumers are now seeking value for
>> money and value certainly isn't to be found at Starbucks. It never
>> has been. I've visited two NZ Starbucks in my time. Neither
>> impressed me. The store ambience was sterile and the coffee
>> substandard, both in terms of bean and preparation. Never again.
>>
>> The demise of just one more flim-flam "image" retailer can do nothing
>> but good.
>
(snip)
>
>Next you will be telling us Dominos and McDonalds and Burger King and
>KFC are in danger of going out of business.
Really? 20/20 foresight?
You already know I'm only relaying news of Starbuck's current
difficulties, not speculating on the potential fortunes of other
fast-food companies.
Fred
"sam" <s...@green.eggs> wrote in message news:4892538d$1...@clear.net.nz...
McDonalds won't. Don't know much about Dominoes or Burger King, but I
wouldn't hold my breath for KFC; they seem to struggle to make a profit.
sam
All you are telling us is that US mall franchises follow boom and bust
cycles.
-Newsman-
But Starbucks is notable for its vaulting hubris, its later entry into
the market and its potential early demise. Worth noting that more
than two thirds of the stores now to be closed opened since the start
of 2006, with the largest number having opened during last year.
Sounds rather like poor market analysis and forecasting to me.
As for some of the others you mention, who can say, but I do wonder
about Subway. There's a disgusting smell emanating from the entrances
of three outlets I occasionally pass by suggesting a nauseous mixture
of fresh baked bread and vomit. Couldn't be more off-putting if they
tried.
sam
Sounds like an indicator of the US economy tanking to me, people trying
to keep their houses etc.
They made espresso a fashion fad for a while, but Americans still mostly
drink drip filter machine coffee from huge urns, like conference coffee.
Starbucks and their imitators mainly achieved their popularity in the
malls with huge $5 coffee based smoothies.
But its only coffee after all.
Like real beer its best made by enthusiasts
Me
> Me wrote:
>> -Newsman- wrote:
>>> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet another
>>> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
>>>
>>> With news of Starbucks wholesale store closures across the US and
>>> Australia (two-thirds to close) how long can the company survive? Not
>>> that I reckon it deserves to from its much vaunted "customer
>>> experience" aspect.
>>>
>>> In the current economic climate consumers are now seeking value for
>>> money and value certainly isn't to be found at Starbucks. It never
>>> has been. I've visited two NZ Starbucks in my time. Neither
>>> impressed me. The store ambience was sterile and the coffee
>>> substandard, both in terms of bean and preparation. Never again.
>>>
>>> The demise of just one more flim-flam "image" retailer can do nothing
>>> but good.
>>
>> I read an article arguing that Starbucks were a victim of their own
>> success. I think they have a point. Good coffee isn't special any more
>
> good coffee? starbucks?
a rating of drek/good/great/excellent, Starbucks can make it to good.
>
>> - most people I know have expresso machines at home, cost per cup
>> about $0.20 when using premium beans - about $0.10 when using beans
>> that are okay - probably about the quality of what you'd get at
>> Starbucks.
>
> exactly...
days. A tad slow as the steamer gets going, but what's a 10 second
delay when you save $4 and you're not serving 300 a day?
>
>> I see that some Subway franchisees in NZ are not happy campers too.
>> Now that's a market model that's set up to almost guarantee doom for
>> late entries - like a pyramid marketing scheme.
>
> oversold franchises....
>
> I feel sorry for people who bought into these....sometimes...especially
> as in the case with subway/starbucks the owner over-supplies franchises...
>
to have more outlets in their area than any other fast food chain. If
one other fast food chain did that, then either the system breaks down,
or the fate of the universe is no longer a mystery.
Me
looking for a proliferation of the stereotypical KFC eater in an area
where there isn't one, and you can't lose.
KFC was still absent in continental europe last time I was there. I
don't think it's because they won't eat crap there - McD's seems to do
just fine. Most likely the price of chicken - which if it keeps going
up will probably have little impact on sales here - most of the
customers probably can't count anyway.
thingy
I think 9 bar is enough....trademe has them for $100 dunno if they are
any good I admit, but the reviews seem OK....my old steam driven one
still works, when it goes i will get a better one...
regards
thing
Robert Howard
"-Newsman-" <sla...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:48923d30....@news.clear.net.nz...
Starbucks is not in it's death throws here. It's profits have increased. It
has 44 stores down 2 on last year. They appear to be due to such things as
leases running out. It can be that there is more competition in Australia
and the US than there is here.
""
Starbucks Coffee
Starbucks delivered the eighteenth consecutive quarter of sales growth,
increasing 1.4% on the prior year to $7.7 million, despite a reduced number
of stores. Same store growth was 6.7%.
Successful retail promotions such as the "Good Coffee Day" reinforced the
continued positive underlying growth in the beverage business.
Store numbers remained at 44, two down on prior year with last year's
closures for lease end reasons. ""
Mind you I am saying nothing about the quality of it's coffee. I don't drink
coffee.
Bob Howard.
Fred
"Robert Howard" <rfho...@slingshot.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1217557735.546473@ftpsrv1...
>
> "-Newsman-" <sla...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:48923d30....@news.clear.net.nz...
>> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet another
>> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
> It has 44 stores down 2 on last year. They appear to be due to such things
> as leases running out. It can be that there is more competition in
> Australia and the US than there is here.
>
> ""
> Starbucks Coffee
>
> Starbucks delivered the eighteenth consecutive quarter of sales growth,
> increasing 1.4% on the prior year to $7.7 million, despite a reduced
> number of stores. Same store growth was 6.7%.
>
> Successful retail promotions such as the "Good Coffee Day" reinforced the
> continued positive underlying growth in the beverage business.
>
> Store numbers remained at 44, two down on prior year with last year's
> closures for lease end reasons. ""
Not renewing a lease is invariably because business is losing money. I think
you'll see a fair few more close as their leases come up for renewal. An
increase of 6.7% means nothing. It's profit that drives a business. When you
read burble like 'continued positive underlying growth' you know there's a
problem. (They'll call it an issue)
-Newsman-
<rfho...@slingshot.co.nz> wrote:
>
>"-Newsman-" <sla...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:48923d30....@news.clear.net.nz...
>> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet another
>> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
(snip)
>>
>> The demise of just one more flim-flam "image" retailer can do nothing
>> but good.
>
>Starbucks is not in it's death throws...
*Throws?* See header, for Christ's sake.
Fred
But it goes so well with it's!
thingy
I think on balance losing Starbucks is all positive....I hope they leave
NZ as well.
regards
thing
Warwick
apparently they do alright here, they look as if they do
too. But 6 bucks a flat white is way OTT.
--
cheers
-Newsman-
Then simply have nothing to do with the outfit. In fact, on that one
point alone, why would anyone with a working brain pay 6 bucks for a
coffee? Ever? Or is it the truth that the NZ clientele is actually
*that* thick?
Matty F
> On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:36:36 +1200, "Robert Howard"
>
>
> >"-Newsman-" <slay...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:48923d30....@news.clear.net.nz...
> >> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet another
> >> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
>
> (snip)
>
>
>
> >> The demise of just one more flim-flam "image" retailer can do nothing
> >> but good.
>
> >Starbucks is not in it's death throws...
>
> *Throws?* See header, for Christ's sake.
"It's OK, he's Australian." - (if you ever saw Crocodile Dundee)
Robert Howard
Well they are not Australian are they. What else would you expect?
Bob Howard.
I LOVE IT!
>
>> -Newsman- wrote:
>>> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet
>>> another
>>> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
Sounds more like you had your hands in your pants.
sam
The outlets I have seen, Willis St, Lambton Quay and Courtney Place all
seem to be doing extremely well.
anonk
> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet another
> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
>
> Australia (two-thirds to close) how long can the company survive? Not
> that I reckon it deserves to from its much vaunted "customer
> experience" aspect.
>
> In the current economic climate consumers are now seeking value for
> money and value certainly isn't to be found at Starbucks. It never
> has been. I've visited two NZ Starbucks in my time. Neither
> impressed me. The store ambience was sterile and the coffee
> substandard, both in terms of bean and preparation. Never again.
Coffee? It's a milk shop. The coffee's only a condiment. Going to
Starbucks for coffee is like going to McDonald's for salt and pepper.
anonk
> I remember some yank, Starbucks ceo? coming over here to NZ (WTGN) and
> complaining that Starbucks was not doing well because over burning of
> the coffee in an over abundance of nz owned coffee shops which NZers
> preferred....yeah right....market forces in operation mate....
They've confessed that they always burnt their coffee in the US in the
name of customer preference, and are reforming their roasting experts to
roast, not burn.
But he's also right, most espresso beans in New Zealand are very, very
dark compared with what you'd find in Italy. New Zealand espresso is
made to a different ideal.
So's New Zealand cappuccino.
anonk
From my perspective, places like Starbucks are useful when you're in
unfamiliar territory and want at least ONE thing that'll turn out as you
think it will. There comes a point in travel when a moment of
familiarity is worth much more than high quality. Starbucks is fairly
consistent the world over, more so than McDonalds.
anonk
> On , , Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:06:38 +1200, Re: Starbucks in its
> I went into one recently and sked for a double ristretto. The
> coffee maker just stared at me with his mouth open.
> I asked for the manager and he told me they only catered to
> average customers.
> Imagine not knowing how to do a double ristretto.
>
How is that a speciality coffee? Maybe you'd have had more luck by
switching completely into Italian and hoping for some good old kiwi
hospitality to ask what that meant and how to make it justa lika mama.
Warwick
> On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 18:30:56 +1200, Warwick <no...@nowhere.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> [21 quoted lines suppressed]
>
> Then simply have nothing to do with the outfit. In fact, on that one
> point alone, why would anyone with a working brain pay 6 bucks for a
> coffee? Ever? Or is it the truth that the NZ clientele is actuallyI
> *that* thick?
I am not a big fan of Starbucks, but I do drink a lot of
espresso. The flat white grande (grond-aye I hate that
pretentious nonsense, like McD's Fill-aye of fish) actually
drinks like a six dollar coffee. Its big, and gnarly too if
you get the extra shots. It is not a total rip.
There's a couple of whys. I like to meet people at Starbucks
because they have bloody good furniture. The other is time.
Us townies don't fuck around for hours taking breaks like
those country boys (daffyd etc). Whatevers closest and
doesn't have a queue wins.
--
cheers
Miche
<09827f44-0d6c-490b...@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
Bobs <mcau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you want fast food coffee - you're best to go to McCafe which makes
> better stuff than Starbucks.
That's not difficult, though.
Miche
--
Electricians do it in three phases
Miche
thingy <thi...@not.here.commy> wrote:
> I remember some yank, Starbucks ceo? coming over here to NZ (WTGN) and
> complaining that Starbucks was not doing well because over burning of
> the coffee in an over abundance of nz owned coffee shops which NZers
> preferred....yeah right....market forces in operation mate....
How amusing -- the most common complaint my American friends have about
Starbucks is that they burn their beans.
EMB
> The outlets I have seen, Willis St, Lambton Quay and Courtney Place all
> seem to be doing extremely well.
Just because a business has a constant stream of clients and is selling
goods constantly doesn't mean it is making a profit.
The last restaurant I was involved with reached break even point after
about 3 months with customer numbers at about the maximum level we could
cope with easily. At this point we raised prices 10% - monetary turnover
grew by the same amount showing that the customer numbers had stayed
static. Suddenly the shareholders were getting a return of 20% on their
investment with only a very small change in actual turnover. I believe
Starbucks are in a similar position, but their coffee is already
expensive so they do not have the option of raising prices to increase
profitability.
Fred
"EMB" <emb...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:48937ae9$1...@news01.wxnz.net...
Starbucks has around 44 stores in NZ and last year lost an average of 11000
+ per store. Although the total loss of 500,000 migtht be able to be reduced
by dumping the worst performers it's more likely this year could be higher
as disposable income is generally tighter. You can buy shares in owner RBD,
but I wouldn't.
sam
If you've been backpacking through Asia and you come across a Starbucks
in Singapore you'll forget that you are a double ristretto triple wanker
and go "Excellent !"
Just like if you are stranded in buttfuck nowhere New Plymouth or
Wangavegas, you aren't going to go searching for the little speciality
roaster the only the locals know about or take a chance on a bitter weak
gas station rippoff, you are going to look for that Starbucks sign.
Bobs
Shitbucks has 20 stores in Auckland - every one I've seen seems to be a
ghost shop. No one inside at all. They can't be making money. Especially
with their terrible fucking coffee. My dead granny makes better coffee
sam
> sam wrote:
>> The outlets I have seen, Willis St, Lambton Quay and Courtney Place
>> all seem to be doing extremely well.
>
> Just because a business has a constant stream of clients and is selling
> goods constantly doesn't mean it is making a profit.
>
Their problem is the locations they have in the provinces where there is
no urban life, just tumbleweeds after 5pm
I LOVE IT!
> On , , Fri, 1 Aug 2008 22:16:44 +1200, Re: Starbucks in its
> death
> They aren't called the family jewels for nothing and having a
> turd burglar like you trying to move up in the criminal stakes
> makes my flesh creep.
That's wonderful news. But your flesh creeping surely comes
naturally to you though.
anonk
> On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 11:11:35 +1200, sam wrote:
>
>>> From my perspective, places like Starbucks are useful when you're in
>>> unfamiliar territory and want at least ONE thing that'll turn out as
>>> you think it will. There comes a point in travel when a moment of
>>> familiarity is worth much more than high quality. Starbucks is fairly
>>> consistent the world over, more so than McDonalds.
>>>
>> Exactly
>> If you've been backpacking through Asia and you come across a Starbucks
>> in Singapore you'll forget that you are a double ristretto triple wanker
>> and go "Excellent !"
>> Just like if you are stranded in buttfuck nowhere New Plymouth or
>> Wangavegas, you aren't going to go searching for the little speciality
>> roaster the only the locals know about or take a chance on a bitter weak
>> gas station rippoff, you are going to look for that Starbucks sign.
>
The point is that you know this in advance.
I am not always in the mood to check out a dozen cafés hoping that one
of them will sell what their menu promises. At least with Starbucks you
have a good idea in advance of which particular kind of crap you're getting.
Lukagain Cos ThistleBounce
wrote:
Good point. I'm off the opinion that amongst the first businesses to
suffer in this worsening economic climate will be the cafes & coffee
houses. Would be interesting to learn what the $takings are at Caffe
L'Affare, Mojos etc are...... last month this year vs last month last
year..??
-Newsman-
wrote:
Rather like TVNZ's news.
EMB
> EMB wrote:
>> sam wrote:
>>> The outlets I have seen, Willis St, Lambton Quay and Courtney Place
>>> all seem to be doing extremely well.
>>
>> Just because a business has a constant stream of clients and is
>> selling goods constantly doesn't mean it is making a profit.
>>
> Its a fairly good indicator in the case of those locations.
It's an awful indicator in their urban locations - they are paying
astronomial rents (and in the case of Westfield owned premises a
proportion of their turnover) that make profitability unlikely. Such
high cost locations are loss leaders that are merely to enhance their
profile and keep them in the public eye. The overall enterprise will
rely on making a return from the locations with a lower fixed cost
structure.
> Their problem is the locations they have in the provinces where there is
> no urban life, just tumbleweeds after 5pm
The majority of their urban stores are not open much after 5pm either.
anonk
> On Fri, 01 Aug 2008 23:17:39 -0400, anonk wrote:
>
>>> I aint going to do that - Starbucks is shite!
>> The point is that you know this in advance.
>>
>> I am not always in the mood to check out a dozen cafés hoping that one
>> of them will sell what their menu promises. At least with Starbucks you
>> have a good idea in advance of which particular kind of crap you're
>> getting.
>
> than go and have something again that I already know is shite.
Maybe you've got more stamina and faith when you travel. In some of the
places where I end up, you look around and just know that your chances
are miserable especially around the end of a hard week of work and bad food.
anonk
> Friom its very inception, I always felt Starbucks was yet another
> retail outfit peddling style rather than substance.
>
> Australia (two-thirds to close) how long can the company survive? Not
> that I reckon it deserves to from its much vaunted "customer
> experience" aspect.
Something about the Starbucks customer experience:
This is my last week around NYC for a while. The next stop has better
coffee by far. It has Starbucks but also a couple of other chains that
actually make you an espresso when you ask for one.