Crossdressing in NZ?
Beth T
Just found out that I'm going to be spending some time in NZ, and was
wondering what the general mood was there towards crossdressing. My
guess would be that, just as in the US, it depends on where you are.
Here in the States, most of the major cities have places
(restaurants/bars) that are accepting or at least tolerant. Then there
are the spots that cater to us, transvestites and/or drag queens.
Although I'm not gay (I'm more of the "classic" heterosexual
crossdresser), I do like to take in the occasional drag queen show too!
I'll be arriving and spending a few days in Auckland, then on to
Wellington for a few weeks, then a couple of weeks at various spots on
the South Island. For the most part, I'll be traveling with some
business associates and any "nights out" will be on the QT.
What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
Also, as to NZ customs at the airport in Auckland. What are the odds
that my baggage would be searched upon arrival or departure from
Auckland? It would be rather embarrasing, to say the least, to have my
baggage searched in front of my business partners...
Thanks for any info, and I'm really looking forward to visiting NZ (with
or without my "femme" self),
--
Beth T
be...@poboxes.com
Greg
cross dressing? is that something churches do?
Thomas Kaminski
says...
> What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
Wind, rain and beaurocrats.
>
> Also, as to NZ customs at the airport in Auckland. What are the odds
> that my baggage would be searched upon arrival or departure from
> Auckland?
Depends on what size bra you'll be wearing.
>
> Thanks for any info, and I'm really looking forward to visiting NZ (with
> or without my "femme" self),
Bring 'em on, we can't wait.
T.K.
http://new.zealand.isFun.net
--
Trolling for Auckland is like playing
Rugby for Australia. Just can't lose...
David Herkt
>
> Hello All,
>
> Just found out that I'm going to be spending some time in NZ, and was
> wondering what the general mood was there towards crossdressing.
Speaking generally, Beth, NZ is in the top three countries for
cross-dressing in the world. I have always found this interesting. The
UK is one of the other highest countries and, as you probably know, much
of NZ's European culture comes from the UK. So there is a 'tradition' of
cross-dressing, if you like. Along with this, NZ is a Polynesian country
and Polynesian cultures (especially the Pacific Island cultures) have
institutionalised features that involve males becoming feminised and
wearing the clothes of the other gender (Samoan; 'fa'afafine' and the
Tongan 'fukalaite') in a somewhat similiar way to the Native American
'berdache'.
As in most cultures NZers cross-dress for a number of resons and we too
range the gamut from the cross-dressing heterosexual male through to the
drag-queen and to the transexual. There are a number of venues for
expression of these interests, including a Cross-dresser's organisation
which meets regularly in Auckland and Wellington. There are also gay and
lesbian clubs where, as you probably know, there is a greater tolerance
of cross-dressing than in straight clubs. In Auckland there is places
like Legend which has drag shows most nights and the Caluzzi Bar which
is actually staffed by drag-queens. I'm not so sure about Wellington
venues.
However I am sure you will be able to experience at least some of these.
I have added to your list of posted groups in the hope that it might
elicit more info for you.
Your best bet is to contact Auckland and Wellington Gayline/Lesbianlines
when you arrive. Auckland in 09.303.3584 and Wellington's is
04.385.0674. Ask about the group called CD-Rom because that group may be
able to help you more with your questions. The Auckland Gayline
definitely has contact details for this group in both Auckland and
Wellington.
> Also, as to NZ customs at the airport in Auckland. What are the odds
> that my baggage would be searched upon arrival or departure from
> Auckland? It would be rather embarrasing, to say the least, to have my
> baggage searched in front of my business partners...
Well I can't answer this. Usually the searching is done away from others
and the group you come with is not usually part of your own search. You
could always courier your stuff from the US to here to be picked up at
your hotel upon arrival, that way customs searches will not involve you
or your business partners.
You could be searched upon arrival but you will not be searched upon
leaving, at least not usually. Internally there are no customs searches
involved in flying from city to city.
> Thanks for any info, and I'm really looking forward to visiting NZ (with
> or without my "femme" self)
I think you can bring her too...
D.
ta...@xtra.co.nz
>Hello All,
>
>Just found out that I'm going to be spending some time in NZ, and was
>wondering what the general mood was there towards crossdressing. My
>guess would be that, just as in the US, it depends on where you are.
>Here in the States, most of the major cities have places
>(restaurants/bars) that are accepting or at least tolerant. Then there
>are the spots that cater to us, transvestites and/or drag queens.
>Although I'm not gay (I'm more of the "classic" heterosexual
>crossdresser), I do like to take in the occasional drag queen show too!
>
>I'll be arriving and spending a few days in Auckland, then on to
>Wellington for a few weeks, then a couple of weeks at various spots on
>the South Island. For the most part, I'll be traveling with some
>business associates and any "nights out" will be on the QT.
>
>What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
Piss poor fashion sense, darling.
*****
I have a great diet. You're allowed to eat anything you want,
but you must eat it with naked fat people.-Ed Bluestone
*****
Kerry
>On 15 Mar 1999 19:23:28 PST, Beth T <be...@poboxes.com> wrote:
>
>>Hello All,
>>
>>Just found out that I'm going to be spending some time in NZ, and was
>>wondering what the general mood was there towards crossdressing. My
>>guess would be that, just as in the US, it depends on where you are.
>>Here in the States, most of the major cities have places
>>(restaurants/bars) that are accepting or at least tolerant. Then there
>>are the spots that cater to us, transvestites and/or drag queens.
>>Although I'm not gay (I'm more of the "classic" heterosexual
>>crossdresser), I do like to take in the occasional drag queen show too!
>>
>>I'll be arriving and spending a few days in Auckland, then on to
>>Wellington for a few weeks, then a couple of weeks at various spots on
>>the South Island. For the most part, I'll be traveling with some
>>business associates and any "nights out" will be on the QT.
>>
>>What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
>
>Piss poor fashion sense, darling.
You've been to Wellington?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am not young enough to know everything.
--Oscar Wilde
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Libitina
This raises a few interesting points of how we raise our kiddies.
My daughter was putting on nail polish. Her little boy/friend (aged 4)
wanted some too. Without realising it I had already said 'Boys don't wear
nail-polish'.
Now once upon a time this *may* have been true. But, already she had
thought it through and knew I was wrong. She had seen 'funny men' on the
tele wearing dresses and makeup... mummy was wrong this time!
I simply told the little boy that it didn't go with his Thomas the Tank
Engine shirt and that he should ask his mummy about nail polish:)
--
Libitina
'Since brevity is the soul of wit, and tediousness the limbs and outward
florishes, I will be brief' -WS
daf
it will look pretty on you". Why duck-shove and put the poor kid onto his
mum?
cheers
David
Libitina
>I suggest you ask yourself why you didn't just say "sure you can have some,
>it will look pretty on you". Why duck-shove and put the poor kid onto his
>mum?
Well would it not be her responsibility for a start?
I know for a fact she would not have appreciated my polishing up her *SONS*
fingernails. I have to respect her way of how she wants to raise her
son..within reason of course. I make my views apparent, she disagrees. But
that is HER right. Children are so accepting, and I have very little
problems when it comes to my own child accepting that some men wear dresses
and lippy. Normalisation is stressed in our home. Sadly, not so in some.
Lesley Walker
How very negative of you, Thomas. Do you suffer from depression?
We also have stunning views, a beautiful harbour, Te Papa, and Courtenay
Place.
>> Also, as to NZ customs at the airport in Auckland. What are the odds
>> that my baggage would be searched upon arrival or departure from
>> Auckland?
>Depends on what size bra you'll be wearing.
And also on what shows up in the x-ray machine, I expect.
I'm no expert, having only ever done the incoming customs thing twice
(once going to Australia and again coming back), but I'm fairly sure
they will only search "suspicious characters".
One thing I would suggest to Beth, see if you can get hold of a list of
things that can't come into to the country for agricultural reasons.
Apparently this is something that often surprises visitors - but we're
very particular about keeping pests and diseases out.
As for people's attitude to cross-dressing, I'd hazard a guess that the
majority of people would think "a bit weird, but it's your life", a
small number would get freaked out totally, and some would be completely
suppportive.
[following David's example and adding another newsgroup]
ta...@xtra.co.nz
(Kerry) wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:22:36 GMT, ta...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
>
>>On 15 Mar 1999 19:23:28 PST, Beth T <be...@poboxes.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hello All,
>>>
>>>Just found out that I'm going to be spending some time in NZ, and was
>>>wondering what the general mood was there towards crossdressing. My
>>>guess would be that, just as in the US, it depends on where you are.
>>>Here in the States, most of the major cities have places
>>>(restaurants/bars) that are accepting or at least tolerant. Then there
>>>are the spots that cater to us, transvestites and/or drag queens.
>>>Although I'm not gay (I'm more of the "classic" heterosexual
>>>crossdresser), I do like to take in the occasional drag queen show too!
>>>
>>>I'll be arriving and spending a few days in Auckland, then on to
>>>Wellington for a few weeks, then a couple of weeks at various spots on
>>>the South Island. For the most part, I'll be traveling with some
>>>business associates and any "nights out" will be on the QT.
>>>
>>>What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
>>
>>Piss poor fashion sense, darling.
>
>You've been to Wellington?
>
Not yet. But if Auckland is any indication, Beth will probably be the
best dressed person in Wellington while s/he's there.
*****
It's not how you pick your nose, but where you put
the booger
*****
Lesley Walker
>Beth T wrote:
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> Just found out that I'm going to be spending some time in NZ, and was
>> wondering what the general mood was there towards crossdressing.
>
>cross-dressing in the world. I have always found this interesting. The
>UK is one of the other highest countries
Out of curiosity, what's the other one? And is this a rating of some
sort, or just one those "everyone knows..." things?
Marvin
oops. Ignore last, I just re-read it.
Marvin
Thomas Kaminski
lea...@phobos.actrix.gen.nz says...
> Thomas Kaminski wrote in message ...
> >In article <36EDCF96...@poboxes.com>, be...@poboxes.com
> >says...
> >
>
> How very negative of you, Thomas. Do you suffer from depression?
Negative? That was supposed to be humour. Aw, well, can't
expect everyone to always get it. No I don't suffer from
depression, mate. I suffer from Wellingtomitis, being from
Auckland myself and all.
> We also have stunning views, a beautiful harbour, Te Papa, and Courtenay
> Place.
...Jenny Shipley, the Porirua Triangle, more lawyers than
afternoon sun, and (do you guys still do that?) Tequila
Chasers...
> >> Also, as to NZ customs at the airport in Auckland. What are the odds
> >> that my baggage would be searched upon arrival or departure from
> >> Auckland?
> >Depends on what size bra you'll be wearing.
>
> And also on what shows up in the x-ray machine, I expect.
So bring only the plastic tools, they blow up anything
that's metal and battery powered.
> I'm no expert, having only ever done the incoming customs thing twice
> (once going to Australia and again coming back), but I'm fairly sure
> they will only search "suspicious characters".
>
> One thing I would suggest to Beth, see if you can get hold of a list of
> things that can't come into to the country for agricultural reasons.
> Apparently this is something that often surprises visitors - but we're
> very particular about keeping pests and diseases out.
True. They will blast you with insecticide until you get all
dizzy. It's a typical Kiwi traditional welcome. If you are
lucky, Maori will show you a haka. Pakeha will stick fly spray
up your nose and a torch up your bottom. Just in case. We are
careful people.
T.K.
--
http://new.zealand.isFun.net
Dave Joll
>lea...@phobos.actrix.gen.nz says...
>> Thomas Kaminski wrote in message ...
>> >In article <36EDCF96...@poboxes.com>, be...@poboxes.com
>> >> What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
>> >Wind, rain and beaurocrats.
>> How very negative of you, Thomas. Do you suffer from depression?
>Negative? That was supposed to be humour.
Now you know how the rest of the country feels when we make
a joke about Auckland and some Aucklander takes it seriously...
David Herkt
It was a survey reported in nz.soc.queer last year. The original poster
wrote:
"New Zealand actually ranks about 3rd in the world for xdressers per
capita - after Britain and Scandinavia."
D.
Beagle
This is particularly amusing considering it comes from an American.
--
Thomas Beagle
tho...@sapphire.co.nz
Dave
> Now you know how the rest of the country feels when we make
> a joke about Auckland and some Aucklander takes it seriously...
Most Aucklanders are totally humorless when it comes to cracks about
their dreary city. I love winding them up about it.
Bill
regularly used, and our legal system is unsympathetic towards importers of
drugs.
Also, we are pretty strict about imports that might carry pests that could
affect our agriculture - fruit, plant material, hides, etc.
Any suspected breach of these two restrictions is likely to result in a very
full and detailed search.
Otherwise, bring plenty of $US and have fun. We value our tourism industry
and love to have visitors.......
Beth T wrote:
> <snipped>
>
> Also, as to NZ customs at the airport in Auckland. What are the odds
> that my baggage would be searched upon arrival or departure from
Beth T
> In article <36EDCF96...@poboxes.com>, be...@poboxes.com
> says...
>
> > What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
> Wind, rain and beaurocrats.
>
> >
> > Also, as to NZ customs at the airport in Auckland. What are the odds
> > that my baggage would be searched upon arrival or departure from
> > Auckland?
> Depends on what size bra you'll be wearing.
>
> >
> > Thanks for any info, and I'm really looking forward to visiting NZ (with
> > or without my "femme" self),
> Bring 'em on, we can't wait.
>
> T.K.
> http://new.zealand.isFun.net
> --
> Trolling for Auckland is like playing
> Rugby for Australia. Just can't lose...
I love it!
If this is an example of NZ humor, I KNOW I'm going to love it there!
Huggs
--
Beth T
Beth T
> Beth T wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Just found out that I'm going to be spending some time in NZ, and was
> > wondering what the general mood was there towards crossdressing.
>
> Speaking generally, Beth, NZ is in the top three countries for
> cross-dressing in the world. I have always found this interesting. The
> > Also, as to NZ customs at the airport in Auckland. What are the odds
> > that my baggage would be searched upon arrival or departure from
> > Auckland? It would be rather embarrasing, to say the least, to have my
> > baggage searched in front of my business partners...
>
> Well I can't answer this. Usually the searching is done away from others
> and the group you come with is not usually part of your own search. You
> could always courier your stuff from the US to here to be picked up at
> your hotel upon arrival, that way customs searches will not involve you
> or your business partners.
>
> You could be searched upon arrival but you will not be searched upon
> leaving, at least not usually. Internally there are no customs searches
> involved in flying from city to city.
>
>
> > Thanks for any info, and I'm really looking forward to visiting NZ (with
> > or without my "femme" self)
>
> I think you can bring her too...
>
> D.
David,
I can't thank you enough for taking the time to make such a wonderful
response! I do appreciate your effort.
The more I research this subject, the more it appears that I can be as much at
ease in NZ as I am in most places in the States. I especially can't wait to
contact the group CD-Rom. With a name like that, I know I'll feel welcome.
Thanks again for your comments and
Huggs,
Beth T
Beth T
> On 15 Mar 1999 19:23:28 PST, Beth T <be...@poboxes.com> wrote:
>
> >Hello All,
> >
> >Just found out that I'm going to be spending some time in NZ, and was
> >wondering what the general mood was there towards crossdressing. My
> >guess would be that, just as in the US, it depends on where you are.
> >Here in the States, most of the major cities have places
> >(restaurants/bars) that are accepting or at least tolerant. Then there
> >are the spots that cater to us, transvestites and/or drag queens.
> >Although I'm not gay (I'm more of the "classic" heterosexual
> >crossdresser), I do like to take in the occasional drag queen show too!
> >
> >I'll be arriving and spending a few days in Auckland, then on to
> >Wellington for a few weeks, then a couple of weeks at various spots on
> >the South Island. For the most part, I'll be traveling with some
> >business associates and any "nights out" will be on the QT.
> >
> >What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
>
> Piss poor fashion sense, darling.
Then I should blend in wonderfully!
--
Beth T
Beth T
> David Herkt <dhe...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in article
> <36EDE1...@ihug.co.nz>...
> > Tongan 'fukalaite')
> that'll be faka- something (cf whaka- : "cause to become, -ify, -ise"),
> probably -leiti (which I think is from "lady").
Say what?
--
Beth T
Beth T
>>
>> Beth T wrote:
>>
>> > <snipped>
>> >
>> > Also, as to NZ customs at the airport in Auckland. What are the odds
>> > that my baggage would be searched upon arrival or departure from
>> > Auckland? It would be rather embarrasing, to say the least, to have my
>> > baggage searched in front of my business partners...
>> >
>
> My advice re Customs is: DO NOT BRING ANY DRUGS! Drug sniffer dogs are
> regularly used, and our legal system is unsympathetic towards importers of
> drugs.
>
> Also, we are pretty strict about imports that might carry pests that could
> affect our agriculture - fruit, plant material, hides, etc.
>
> Any suspected breach of these two restrictions is likely to result in a very
> full and detailed search.
>
> Otherwise, bring plenty of $US and have fun. We value our tourism industry
> and love to have visitors.......
Bill,
Thanks for the info. I have travel extensively and have never taken the chance
of taking drugs with me. In fact, if the urge arises, I've found that there are
usually plenty to be found wherever I go.
As to the other imports, my only concern is my silicone breast forms. I can
just imagine a dog sniffing my baggage and I get searched for suspected plastic
explosives!
Other than that, I plan on having a great time in your country whether enhomme
or enfemme.
Thanks for the response!
--
Beth T
Beth T
Garth Cleland wrote:
> Hi Beth hope you have a good stay in wellington. If you're worried about
> customs just by some gear over here!
Looking forward to visiting NZ, especially Wellington. But, if I had to leave
everything at home and shop for all the things I need, I'd be spending all 3
weeks just shopping. Hmmm, not a bad idea at that. The lady in me DOES love
to shop!
> If you are in wellington check out the Evergreen coffee lounge on Vivien St
> or Barneys on Cuba Mall. Make sure you go for a stroll up Courtny place.
Thanks for the info. I'm there!
> You shouldn't get too many hasles here, but there are dickhads everywhere
Yep. And in the States, we have dickheads too!
Huggs,
Beth
ta...@xtra.co.nz
wrote:
>ta...@xtra.co.nz wrote
>>Beth T <be...@poboxes.com> wrote:
>>>What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
>>
>>Piss poor fashion sense, darling.
>
>
>This is particularly amusing considering it comes from an American.
Yeah? Well at least I know how to button a sweater properly.
Thomas Kaminski
lea...@phobos.actrix.gen.nz says...
> >> >> What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
> >> >Wind, rain and beaurocrats.
> >>
> >> How very negative of you, Thomas. Do you suffer from depression?
> >
> >Negative? That was supposed to be humour.
>
> That's what I thought, I was actually being sarcastic.
> (^^^clarification)
<sarcasm>
So you noticed...
</sarcasm>
> Someone asks for information, you respond with an unfunny joke and no
> information, so I thought sarcasm was warranted.
> (^^^serious)
<serious>
Whether the joke was "funny" is rather a matter of opinion,
don't you think? As for me responding "unappropriately", I
DID attach a footnote "Trolling for Auckland" as to avoid
any misunderstandings. You know, life is becoming a bit of
a struggle with us trolls having to justify the occassional
uncontrolled outburst of humour whith a legal indemnation.
So: My response was to a post, and thus related to it which
makes it on-topic. The inconsiderate use of humour alone
does not (yet) qualify for a public flogging, however, I
consider myself told off. I suggest all other posts of mine
with an apparent lack of seriousness and maturity be simply
ignored for the sake of bandwidth.
</serious>
> >...Jenny Shipley, the Porirua Triangle, more lawyers than
> >afternoon sun, and (do you guys still do that?) Tequila
> >Chasers...
>
> You can't blame us for Jenny, she's from Ashburton.
> (^^^flippant)
<flippant>
Iguess I bummed out on that one then. Bugger.
</flippant>
T.K.
--
http://kaminski.cjb.net
Moz (Chris Moseley)
Beth T wrote
>> that'll be faka- something (cf whaka- : "cause to become, -ify, -ise"),
>> probably -leiti (which I think is from "lady").
>
>Say what?
It's just pedants, you can ignore them and eventually it becomes just
a faint droning noise in the background.
Moz
David Herkt
NOW, Christopher, that's not quite true. Hugh came up with an
interesting but, in my opinion, false, derivation of fukaleiti, the word
Tongans apply to cross-dressers and transsexuals. My own thesis was that
it was derived as a type of pidgin from English. It isn't exactly
DRONING, its the sort of thing you note subliminally and can use over
dinner in sophisticated conversations...
Sample: [Dinner in a Wellington PR person's home]
Brian Edwards: Tongans call cross-dressers fukaleiti.
Kim Hill: I didn't know that.
Bill Ralston: I didn't either.
Paul Holmes: Well I don't know much so I didn't either. I wonder what
its derivation is?
[Brian, Kim and Bill shrug]
Chris Moseley: Well its derivation appears to be from English as in
leiti, a lady, fuka, as in 'who fucks', excuse me Kim, and so it might
mean 'a loose woman' pointing to the low esteem the Christianised
Tongans hold gender-variant individuals. But this can be seen to be
interesting and the marker for a site of cultural tension when you know
that Tonga is the site of the Annual Ms Galaxy competition, which has
runner-up competitions in Australian, NZ and California, and is the
largest transexual/cross-dresser's beauty competition in the world...
So no information is wasted, Chris, on those who are alert. And we
weren't being really boring about it either. It was just a bit of a
to-and-fro.
D.
Moz (Chris Moseley)
David Herkt wrote
>NOW, Christopher, that's not quite true.
I know. But then my first reply was "It's irrelevant etymological
esoterica promulgated by underentertained intellectuals". But then
I decided to try to keep my syllable count down... I suspect we
all treasure your entertaining posts and value your skill with words,
it's just that sometimes that skill takes a less than fascinating
turn, IMO. Speaking as a geek wha can bore people crosseyed myself,
I feel qualified (is that the right word?) to hassle you just a
little sometimes.
>Hugh came up with an interesting but, in my opinion, false,
>derivation of fukaleiti, the word Tongans apply to cross-dressers
Arrrrgghh! You're doing it again. Stop it, stop it. I'm perilously
close to learning things here. If you don't stop I may end up a
Labour party supporter. And that would be terrible :)
Moz
Adele
> > > Tongan 'fukalaite')
> > that'll be faka- something (cf whaka- : "cause to become, -ify,
> -ise"),
> > probably -leiti (which I think is from "lady").
>
> woman... Most of the Tongans I know treat as such but then again when
> was the native respondent worth anything is matters of complexity....
>
> (Just teasing, OK? About the native respondent bit. The derivation is,
> I believe, a true one)
>
I reckon Hugh's right on the origins and you are right about current
usage. The origin is almost certainly a combination of the Polynesian
causal prefix (to make or do [as/like]) faka, fa'a, whaka (all dialectal
variations) plus an English gainword "leiti" (lady). It's just a
slightly anglicised formation of the same expression as fa'afafine,
whakawahine etc.
Increased familiarity with English has made it sound like "fuck a lady".
I heard that as a result the fakaleiti now prefer to be called just
"leiti".
I think the Hawaiian ones are called "mahu", does anyone know the
derivation of this one?
Adele
Welcome
http://homex.s-one.net.sg/member/loosl/
Colin Francis
>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:52:16 +1300, "Beagle" <tho...@sapphire.co.nz>
>wrote:
>
>>ta...@xtra.co.nz wrote
>>>Beth T <be...@poboxes.com> wrote:
>>>>What can I expect, especially in Wellington?
>>>
>>>Piss poor fashion sense, darling.
>>
>>
>>This is particularly amusing considering it comes from an American.
>
>Yeah? Well at least I know how to button a sweater properly.
Oh.. They gave you lessons on that in the US did they ?
** Col **
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
Sama...@manawatu.gen.nz
wrote:
Snip
>As in most cultures NZers cross-dress for a number of resons and we too
>range the gamut from the cross-dressing heterosexual male through to the
>drag-queen and to the transexual.
Oh gee, David, if I didn't know what you were trying to say, then I'd
have to take exception to that sentence. Hell, I might even have had
to get pedantic :)
The gamut to which you refer is presumably that of the diversity of
cross- gender expression and behavior. And whilst it might be argued
that Ts'ty is a form of cross-gendered expression, that rather depends
on whether one is using the PC definition of gender or it's real
meaning. Neverthless, personally, I'd rather that you didn't mention
crossdressing and Transsexuality in the same sentence, as Ts'ity has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with xdressing.
Samantha
ta...@xtra.co.nz
wrote:
Obviously you missed the Karen Walker reference.
*****
The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced;
the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled.
Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't
want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of
living on public assistance.-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 55 B.C.
*****
Lesley Walker
>
>Sample: [Dinner in a Wellington PR person's home]
>
>Brian Edwards: Tongans call cross-dressers fukaleiti.
>
>Kim Hill: I didn't know that.
>
>Bill Ralston: I didn't either.
>
>Paul Holmes: Well I don't know much so I didn't either. I wonder what
>its derivation is?
>
>[Brian, Kim and Bill shrug]
Nobody invited Max Cryer, huh?
Lesley Walker
>
>I reckon Hugh's right on the origins and you are right about current
>usage. The origin is almost certainly a combination of the Polynesian
>causal prefix (to make or do [as/like]) faka, fa'a, whaka (all
dialectal
>variations) plus an English gainword "leiti" (lady). It's just a
>slightly anglicised formation of the same expression as fa'afafine,
>whakawahine etc.
I'm intrigued. If transsexualism is part and parcel of various Pacific
Island cultures, as I had inferred from the small pieces of information
I have heard thus far, how come the word for it is partially derived
from English? There should be a wholly Polynesian word for it, I would
have thought. Or was it introduced by the English, along with religion
and all the other stuff?
Lesley Walker
>don't you think?
Agreed. Maybe I'm too picky, but I really think the "wind and
politicians" jokes have been done to death.
>As for me responding "unappropriately", I
>DID attach a footnote "Trolling for Auckland" as to avoid
Sorry, I think my troll detector was malfunctioning that day.
>consider myself told off. I suggest all other posts of mine
>with an apparent lack of seriousness and maturity be simply
>ignored for the sake of bandwidth.
Nah, just find some funnier jokes.
Example follows (okay, not the BEST example for various reasons, but
anyway...):
The last four U.S. Presidents are caught in a tornado, and off they spin
to the Land of Oz. After enduring trials and tribulations, they finally
make it to The Emerald City and come before the Great Wizard.
"WHAT BRINGS YOU BEFORE THE GREAT WIZARD? WHAT DO YOU WANT?"
Jimmy Carter steps forward timidly. "I had a terrible time with Iran, so
I've come for some courage."
"NO PROBLEM," says the Wizard, "WHO IS NEXT?"
Ronald Reagan steps forward. "Well... well... well... I need a brain."
"DONE," says the Wizard. "WHO COMES NEXT BEFORE THE GREAT WIZARD?"
Up steps George Bush sadly. "I'm told by the American people that I need
a heart."
"I'VE HEARD IT'S TRUE," says the Wizard. "CONSIDER IT DONE."
Then there is a great silence. Bill Clinton is just standing there,
looking around, but doesn't say a word.
Irritated, the Wizard finally asks, "WHAT BRINGS YOU TO THE EMERALD
CITY?"
"Is Dorothy around?"
David Herkt
> The gamut to which you refer is presumably that of the diversity of
> cross- gender expression and behavior. And whilst it might be argued
> that Ts'ty is a form of cross-gendered expression, that rather depends
> on whether one is using the PC definition of gender or it's real
> meaning. Neverthless, personally, I'd rather that you didn't mention
> crossdressing and Transsexuality in the same sentence, as Ts'ity has
> absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with xdressing.
My phrasing in the original was a little off. And even talking about
X-dressing can be a minefield. Practically, however, on a very, very
basic level, as in a person with a certain objectively-defined physical
gender wearing clothing defined as belonging to a person of another
physical gender, all the instances I orriginally mentioned can be
defined as X-fdressing. However this physical phenomenon is has many
widely differing causes. I certainly agree with you that just x-dressing
is completely different from transsexuality. I also know that linking
the two together is not good for either transsexuals or X-dressers.
I know x-dressers who are such heterosexual males that wearing women's
clothing is the ultimate turn-on. I know men who wear woman's clothing
because it allows them to have sexual contact with other men in a way
they find appropriate. So even in the phenomenon of x-dressing there are
almost completely opposite reasons for doing so. It means it is hard for
people to deal with it intelligently and linking these two things with a
completely different concept like transsexuality is just even more
confusing.
Have I got my foot out of my mouth or have I just put it in further?
D.
Sama...@manawatu.gen.nz
wrote:
>Have I got my foot out of my mouth or have I just put it in further?
*Grin* No, I dont think that you have put your fine foot in any
further.
I agree with you that cross-gender variance is a minefield. In fact
sex and gender are extremely complex constructions, although western
cultural hegemony would have us believe differently.
Samantha
Hongi Carter
<sim...@the.net.nz> wrote:
>
>David Herkt wrote in message <36F407...@ihug.co.nz>...
>>
>
>>Practically, however, on a very, very
>>basic level, as in a person with a certain objectively-defined physical
>>gender wearing clothing defined as belonging to a person of another
>>physical gender,
>
>Is the concept 'gender' the same as the concept 'sex'? I have always taken
>the words to means different things. I thought 'sex' was the physical,
>material, bodily construction. I thought 'gender' was something somehow
>more complicated, involving the way the person interacts sexually with
>others, along with a load of stuff about personal identity and place in the
>world and so on. Don't want to get to heavily philosophical here, but you,
>David, seem to be saying that 'gender' is a physical thing. Now I am all
>confused. :(
>
Cut the crap, fellas. Crossdressing is boys dressing up in giirls'
clothing and vice versa.
Gender - classification of the 2 sexes and sexlessness .... male,
female and neuter.
Sex - male, female or hermaphrodite
Beth T
Simon Pleasants wrote:
> Hongi Carter wrote in message <36f6de64...@news.netaccess.co.nz>...
> >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:03:46 +1200, "Simon Pleasants"
> ><sim...@the.net.nz> wrote:
> (snip)
>
> >>Is the concept 'gender' the same as the concept 'sex'? I have always
> taken
> >>the words to means different things. I thought 'sex' was the physical,
> >>material, bodily construction. I thought 'gender' was something somehow
> >>more complicated, involving the way the person interacts sexually with
> >>others, along with a load of stuff about personal identity and place in
> the
> >>world and so on. Don't want to get to heavily philosophical here, but
> you,
> >>David, seem to be saying that 'gender' is a physical thing. Now I am all
> >>confused. :(
> >>
> >Cut the crap, fellas. Crossdressing is boys dressing up in giirls'
> >clothing and vice versa.
> >
> >Gender - classification of the 2 sexes and sexlessness .... male,
> >female and neuter.
> >
> >Sex - male, female or hermaphrodite
>
> Hongi, I don't think you have the 'gender' thing correct.
>
> Gender, I am pretty sure, is the social construction of male/female
> identity which is distinguished from sex, the biologically-based
> distinction between men and women. Gender is both a set of ideas and a
> principle of social organisation. Gender is also an idiom for talking about
> the relationship between nature and culture. Therefore, using the concept
> 'gender,' we are able to look at the characteristics associated with
> 'male-ness' and 'female-ness' and understand how though they give the
> impression of being based on biology, they are in fact culturally
> constructed and variable.
Simon,
I believe you have hit on something here. I would have to mostly agree with
your definition, with one refinement. Your statement
> they are in fact culturally
> constructed and variable.
would be more accurately phrased "they are in fact for the most part
biologicaly, and to a certain extent culturally..." I am convinced that I did
not choose to be, nor was there any specific influence on me, to become a
crossdresser. It has taken a long time for me to find my place on the gender
spectrum, but I've found it and am comfortable.
Huggs,
Beth
Simon Pleasants
>Practically, however, on a very, very
>basic level, as in a person with a certain objectively-defined physical
>gender wearing clothing defined as belonging to a person of another
>physical gender,
Is the concept 'gender' the same as the concept 'sex'? I have always taken
the words to means different things. I thought 'sex' was the physical,
material, bodily construction. I thought 'gender' was something somehow
more complicated, involving the way the person interacts sexually with
others, along with a load of stuff about personal identity and place in the
world and so on. Don't want to get to heavily philosophical here, but you,
David, seem to be saying that 'gender' is a physical thing. Now I am all
confused. :(
Simon Pleasants
Adele
>
> Adele wrote in message <36F164CA...@clear.net.nz>...
> >
> >I reckon Hugh's right on the origins and you are right about current
> >usage. The origin is almost certainly a combination of the Polynesian
> >causal prefix (to make or do [as/like]) faka, fa'a, whaka (all
> dialectal
> >variations) plus an English gainword "leiti" (lady). It's just a
> >slightly anglicised formation of the same expression as fa'afafine,
> >whakawahine etc.
>
> I'm intrigued. If transsexualism is part and parcel of various
> Pacific Island cultures, as I had inferred from the small pieces of
> information I have heard thus far, how come the word for it is partially >derived from English? There should be a wholly Polynesian word for it, I
> would have thought.
fa'afafine is a wholly indigenous term. as is whakawahine etc. I assume
the Tongan's substituted "leiti" for their indigenous word for women
because English words had become popular.
Adele
Simon Pleasants
Hongi Carter wrote in message <36f6de64...@news.netaccess.co.nz>...
>On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:03:46 +1200, "Simon Pleasants"
><sim...@the.net.nz> wrote:
(snip)
>>Is the concept 'gender' the same as the concept 'sex'? I have always
taken
>>the words to means different things. I thought 'sex' was the physical,
>>material, bodily construction. I thought 'gender' was something somehow
>>more complicated, involving the way the person interacts sexually with
>>others, along with a load of stuff about personal identity and place in
the
>>world and so on. Don't want to get to heavily philosophical here, but
you,
>>David, seem to be saying that 'gender' is a physical thing. Now I am all
>>confused. :(
>>
Simon Pleasants
valle...@my-dejanews.com
"Simon Pleasants" <sim...@the.net.nz> wrote:
> >(Hongi Carter wrote): Cut the crap, fellas. Crossdressing is boys dressing
>>up in giirls'
> >clothing and vice versa.
> >
> >Gender - classification of the 2 sexes and sexlessness .... male,
> >female and neuter.
> >
> >Sex - male, female or hermaphrodite
>
> Hongi, I don't think you have the 'gender' thing correct.
>
> Gender, I am pretty sure, is the social construction of male/female
> identity which is distinguished from sex, the biologically-based
> distinction between men and women. Gender is both a set of ideas and a
> principle of social organisation. Gender is also an idiom for talking about
> the relationship between nature and culture. Therefore, using the concept
> 'gender,' we are able to look at the characteristics associated with
> 'male-ness' and 'female-ness' and understand how though they give the
> impression of being based on biology, they are in fact culturally
> constructed and variable.
>
I agree with you Simon, and think this is pretty widely established as a basic
distinction as helpful for talking about such things.
cf. Gayle Rubins writing about "the sex/gender system" circa mid '70s.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Lesley Walker
>
>fa'afafine is a wholly indigenous term. as is whakawahine etc. I assume
>the Tongan's substituted "leiti" for their indigenous word for women
>because English words had become popular.
Sounds plausible - thanks for the explanation.
Sama...@manawatu.gen.nz
<sim...@the.net.nz> wrote:
>Hongi, I don't think you have the 'gender' thing correct.
>
>Gender, I am pretty sure, is the social construction of male/female
>identity which is distinguished from sex, the biologically-based
>distinction between men and women. Gender is both a set of ideas and a
>principle of social organisation. Gender is also an idiom for talking about
>the relationship between nature and culture. Therefore, using the concept
>'gender,' we are able to look at the characteristics associated with
>'male-ness' and 'female-ness' and understand how though they give the
>impression of being based on biology, they are in fact culturally
>constructed and variable.
>
>
Hongi's egregious conclusion aside, and not withstanding some
specious comment to date; I'd like to point out that both gender and
sex are extremely complex concepts.
Historically, gender has denoted the psychological and socio-cultural
designates of maleness and femaleness; whereas 'sex' denoted ones
physical embodiment as male or female. Somewhere along the line we
became "politically correct" and sex appears to have been re-defined
as designating the physical actions of "making love." Accordingly all
those official forms have now replaced 'Sex' (male- female) with
'Gender' (male-female).
However, sex and gender are frequently used synonymously, such that
there remains considerable confusion as to the difference between the
two concepts. This confusion is readily evident in the social science
literature where it has become traditional for an author to define
their exact meaning of the terms from the outset. Nevertheless, the
problems don't stop there!
If gender designates physical embodiment, and sex refers to bonkin'
etc, then there should not be too much confusion, and the concepts of
gender role and gender identity can stand on their own. On the other
hand, if gender is a global term that subsumes gender role and gender
identity, then the issues become more complex.
Gender role refers to behaviour socially scripted as appropriate to a
man or a woman. Hence it is a social construction. Gender identity
denotes ones sense of self as a man or a woman. A plethora of research
indicates that gender identity has a biological diathesis -it is not a
social construction. Accordingly, gender identity cannot be subsumed
under the term gender when gender is used to designate psychological
and socio-cultural differences across a supposed dichotomy .
One can really complicate matters when introducing causality, as in
sex typed or gender typed behaviour - so I wont!
Samantha
Anthony Lawless
Carter) wrote:
>Cut the crap, fellas. Crossdressing is boys dressing up in giirls'
>clothing and vice versa.
Uh... Hongi? Who decided what was "boys and girls clothing" in the
first place? Once you start wondering about *that*, you start
wondering about whether "gender" is useful at all.
http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~norway/lawless.htm
"Just between us, I think it's time for us to realise
The spaces in between leave room for you and I to grow."
Adele
>
> would be more accurately phrased "they are in fact for the most part
> biologicaly, and to a certain extent culturally..." I am convinced
> that I did
> not choose to be, nor was there any specific influence on me, to
> become a crossdresser. It has taken a long time for me to find my >place on the gender spectrum, but I've found it and am comfortable.
>
Hi Beth,
Just because something has become intrinsic to oneself does not mean
that it was not socially/culturally determined. I think the
cross-cultural data on gender and gender roles (and also the crossing
and mixing of aspects of gender) shows a terrific amount of diversity.
Different cultures and societies organise things quite differently and
all feel that they are quite inevitable and natural.
A lot of people seem to feel that they're only entitled to be who they
are if it's biologically determined. But really, I think it shouldn't
matter.
Adele
David Herkt
> Just because something has become intrinsic to oneself does not mean
> that it was not socially/culturally determined. I think the
> cross-cultural data on gender and gender roles (and also the crossing
> and mixing of aspects of gender) shows a terrific amount of diversity.
> Different cultures and societies organise things quite differently and
> all feel that they are quite inevitable and natural.
>
> A lot of people seem to feel that they're only entitled to be who they
> are if it's biologically determined. But really, I think it shouldn't
> matter.
Yes, you said it, Adele. I have found myself infuriated with the whole
recent gay gene debate along with all those possible differing
structures in the hypothalamus. I also find it odd that many queer
people somehow use these arguments to vindicate who they are. For me the
whole essential structure behind these arguments, that gender preference
is this immutable thing and gay is different from straight, is enough to
invalidate the whole argument for starters.
To be honest I see those who cling to a fixed identity preference to be
rigid and possibly psycologically disturbed individuals. Sure its
possible to know one has a preference but it is a fool who considers
that this preference is the whole world and it is always going to be the
whole world for the duration of their lives. Open up anyone's life and
you find gender-smearing. I always like to ask people have they ever had
an experience at twilight where you see a person and think they are hot
and then as one gets closer there is that sudden thought, "Oh my God,
they're the wrong gender." Now which has more authenticity, the feeling
of desire or the thought that the person is the wrong gender?
So for me, something culturally constructed like the demarcated
divisions of gender-preference have got nothing to do with biology.
And look at it this way, we survived the hormone theory, we survived the
behaviourists and aversion therapy, we survived the psycological
disorder thing... And we'll doubtless survive the gay geners.
D.
Sama...@manawatu.gen.nz
>I believe you have hit on something here. I would have to mostly agree with
>your definition, with one refinement. Your statement
>
>> they are in fact culturally
>> constructed and variable.
>
>would be more accurately phrased "they are in fact for the most part
>biologicaly, and to a certain extent culturally..." I am convinced that I did
>not choose to be, nor was there any specific influence on me, to become a
>crossdresser. It has taken a long time for me to find my place on the gender
>spectrum, but I've found it and am comfortable.
Beth,
I'm intrigued as to how you can 'fit' crossdressing to a biological
etiology.
I agree with Adele's opinion that biology shouldn't matter. I also
agree David in that the "it's not my fault, I was born this way"
argument serves no one, and is of questionable function as a defense
against negative social response for both Queer and Transsexual.
Having said that I wouldn't dismiss outright the possibility of an
inutero event underpinning the development of Transsexuality at least.
Whilst developmental and psychoanalytic theories don't hold up across
the board, there is a wealth of anecdotal data from Intersexed and
Transsexual histories, and some empiricial evidence, highly suggestive
of a biological predicate. However, the very nature of crossdressing
would seem to negate the possibility of any of these biological
predicates factoring in crossdressing.
As to biological theories of queer - that's way outside my knowledge.
I have spoken to a good number of people who self- identify as
xdressers while undertaking my doctoral studies, and this is the first
time that I have heard an essentialist argument put forward. Do you
have time to share your view?
Samantha
Adele
> Yes, you said it, Adele. I have found myself infuriated with the whole
> recent gay gene debate along with all those possible differing
> structures in the hypothalamus. I also find it odd that many queer
> people somehow use these arguments to vindicate who they are. For me
> the whole essential structure behind these arguments, that gender
> preference is this immutable thing and gay is different from straight, is >enough to invalidate the whole argument for starters.
>
Biological determinism seems to be perenially popular among all sorts of
groups, you end up with some pretty interesting bedfellows, racists and
sexists for instance. The media doesn't help because it constantly
reports as an absolute conclusion and a nifty headline what is often a
preliminary finding, or a suggestive case study, or a complex scenario
that they can't be bothered reporting. Newspapers never seem to report
back when follow up studies do not confirm the initial hypothesis.
Biological determinism appeals to a lot of people because it appears to
refute the anti-queer argument that homosexuality is "unnatural". But I
think that is to suppose that the anti-queer statement of this kind are
more rational than they really are. Western heterosexual societies
actually have no interest what is natural - just look at the cosmetic
surgery industry for one example. I suspect that anti-queers, if they
thought they could do it, would surgically remove what they don't like.
And I reckon even anti-abortion groups would have second thoughts if
they thought they could do a foetal gene test.
Adele
Adele
>
> Beth,
>
> I'm intrigued as to how you can 'fit' crossdressing to a biological
> etiology.
>
heck Samantha,
I'm going to have to look up "etiology" in the dictionary now.
I don't want to pre-empt Beth but ...
I would guess that a plausible explanation is that aspects of
personality may be biologically determined and it may be that if a
society prevents men from expressing parts of their personality that are
thought to be feminine then they will have to find some way to express a
feminine identity so that they can express these aspects of their
personality.
So you could say that there's a biological basis for cross-dressing in
that regard but it is society that has categorised and even enforced
certain traits as masculine and feminine.
Just a guess. I don't know anything about how biology relates to
personality traits.
Adele
David Cahill
consider anything different from one's own set of morals / ethics /
cultural values as not odd, repulsive or bad with little consideration
for another set of values, etc.
--
Sincerely,
David.
(Wellington NZ)
icq#25038981
* Jacquin's Postulate on Democratic Government:
No man's life, liberty or property are safe while parliament is in
session.