HELP: All Data Erased From Hard Drive After Repair!
Smith
back, was stunned to find that all the data had been erased and the
operating system reinstalled. My friend says he was not given any warning by
the retailer when he took the computer in that all the data could be erased.
The retailer has advised that the repair ticket issued says that data back
up is the responsibility of the user. But I think it would have been better
if my friend had been asked to give specific written instructions about how
the repairer should deal with the data on the computer, do you agree?
My friend has also been advised that the data on the hard drive when it was
taken in for repair was not backed up by the repairer and that neither the
repairer nor the retailer will attempt to recover the lost data because it
is almost certainly irrecoverable. But, in the absence of specific authority
to erase the data, shouldn't the repairer be responsible for attempting to
recover the data?
Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is the data almost certainly
irrecoverable, even by a data recovery specialist? Should my friend be
compensated in some way for the loss of all his data? I know that my friend
had back up copies of some of his digital photos, but many of the e-mails,
word processing files etc. have been lost. The hard drive was not faulty so
my friend did not think it was of huge importance to back up all the data on
the computer before it was repaired. Thanks in advance for your thoughts on
this matter.
Michael Payne
"Smith" <Sm...@lostdata.org> wrote in message
news:46c0f44b$1...@clear.net.nz...
> Recently, a friend took in a computer for repair, and when it was received
> back, was stunned to find that all the data had been erased and the
> operating system reinstalled. My friend says he was not given any warning
> by the retailer when he took the computer in that all the data could be
> erased. The retailer has advised that the repair ticket issued says that
> data back up is the responsibility of the user. But I think it would have
> been better if my friend had been asked to give specific written
> instructions about how the repairer should deal with the data on the
> computer, do you agree?
This isnt unusual. I used to work for a large computer repair firm and this
was a daily occurance. It generally is the users responsibility to look
after their own data, but yes - totally agree - more should be done by these
companies to inform the customer that there is a chance all data can be
lost.
If you really push it they may assist with forensic data recovery.
Tony in Oz
small mobile computer repair business for several years, i may be able to
shed some light.. technically, the company that did this repair is correct,
backup of data is the responsibility of the user. HOWEVER: I used to, if a
reformat and clean install of the OS was necessary, advise the customer of
this, and ask whether he or she had backed up the data. If not, I would
offer to do it, at the usual hourly rate. They would then be asked to sign
a waiver stating that if I was doing the backup, while all care would be
taken to get everything that was required, no responsibility would be
accepted for things that were missed. And typically it would only be the "My
Documents " folder, pictures, music, and e-mails. I would stick them onto
an external medium, such as memory stick, CD or DVD, and then replace them
back in the appropriate folders when the job was done.If they were on CD or
DVD they would also get the backup copy, as a reminder to do it regularly.
Then reformat, reinstall windows, install any other programs supplied by the
customer, along with any freebie Antivirus etc they may request. Job done.
Sometimes a particular problem will be much easier to sort out with a
reformat and clean install, but solvable without taking this rather drastic
step, and in this case contact with the customer is essential. Kind of,
"well I can spend a lot more hours tracking this problem down, and fixing
it, or I can spend just a couple of hours doing a clean install, which will
also solve it. What would you prefer?" If, for instance the customer had
lost his OS disks, thereby not having a way to reinstall Windows withut
purchasing another one, then obviously its better to sort it without
formatting.
So if this is what the repair company did, I would suggest they were
either trying to save time or money by takng the action they took. It sounds
like they were a retailer as well, working on a machine which is under
warranty? If the reformat was not necesary, sounds like laziness to me.
As for the last part of the question, is the data recoverable? Hard to
say. Data recovery expets would be the ones to talk to. But I would think
after a reformat and clean install, it would be very unlikely, and if it was
possible, very expensive. Its like I stated on an earlier post. Hardware is
cheap as chips, Data, especially un-backed up data is priceless. It doesn't
matter if your hard drive is not faulty, They are a mechanical device, and
statistically, 100% of hard drives will, at some time, fail. End of story.
The first 3 rules of computing are: 1. back up 2. Backup and 3. Backup. Its
usually too late to consider backing up when the drive has failed. And
certainly back up all your necessary stuff before it goes for repair, even
if its just a check over and tune up.
Compensation. You won't get anything out of them, because they were
correct in what they say about backup being your responsibility. But they
definitely should have been communicating with the customer, if not legally,
then ethically. For interest's sake, was it a big firm, a small private
operator, or what sort of business? It is, I feel it is a lesson in
backing up for your friend. It just cannnot be stressed enough that it
should be done regularly. In fact this post is a timely reminder to me to do
mine as it hasn't been done in a while. I use exclusively digital camera,
and so don't have negatives or hard copy photos, but I have them all backed
up on DVD, which is the most reliable form of backup IMO. Hope this helps
at least a little bit, I know there's not much comfort to be had from it as
far as getting your stuff back goes. sorry bout that. next time take it
somewhere else. Small operators can be good operators, as i reckon they try
harder. Just watch out for the cowboys. Cheers
peterwn
> Recently, a friend took in a computer for repair, and when it was
> received back, was stunned to find that all the data had been erased and
> the operating system reinstalled. My friend says he was not given any
> warning by the retailer when he took the computer in that all the data
> could be erased. The retailer has advised that the repair ticket issued
> says that data back up is the responsibility of the user. But I think it
> would have been better if my friend had been asked to give specific
> written instructions about how the repairer should deal with the data on
> the computer, do you agree?
Much would turn on what precisely the repair ticket said and the precise
way the computer was accepted for repair. Other issues would be whether
the retailer was a specialist computer retailer or a general retailer
who sells computers among other things, and whether any warranty terms
apply. In particular for a warranty repair the warranty terms may allow
the repairer to restore the computer to 'as sold' - in this case there
is no respect for user data unless the purchaser contracts separately.
If the system is riddled with viruses etc, a 'clean' reinstallation may
be the only option.
One would expect that any reasonable computer sales assistant would ask
data backup when accepting the machine for repair, especially as
respecting data may well be at extra cost.
There is however a problem here. What needed to be backed-up? The
stuff in each user's 'My Documents' is easy, then an 'export' of Outlook
/ Outlook Express files (you cannot simply back these up for reasons
best known to Micro$oft), but there may be other pockets of 'user' data
in program directories, etc (the average repairer would not know all the
places to look as knowledge of each piece of software installed would be
needed. It is not in general possible to backup software - this needs
to be re-installed.
>
> My friend has also been advised that the data on the hard drive when it
> was taken in for repair was not backed up by the repairer and that
> neither the repairer nor the retailer will attempt to recover the lost
> data because it is almost certainly irrecoverable.
A significant portion at least is likely to be irrecoverable as it would
have been over-written when the system was reinstalled.
> But, in the absence
> of specific authority to erase the data, shouldn't the repairer be
> responsible for attempting to recover the data?
See above
>
> Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is the data almost certainly
> irrecoverable, even by a data recovery specialist? Should my friend be
> compensated in some way for the loss of all his data?
It would all depend on what the express and implied terms were when the
computer was accepted for repair.
Since it is accepted in the computer world that regular backups are
necessary, it could be argued that your friend contributed to the loss
by not having a reasonable backup regime in place.
David Empson
> Recently, a friend took in a computer for repair, and when it was received
> back, was stunned to find that all the data had been erased and the
> operating system reinstalled.
[...]
> Has anyone else had a similar experience?
Not personally (I would always back up as a matter of common sense
before giving my computer to someone else to fix), but I've certainly
heard of it before.
> Is the data almost certainly irrecoverable, even by a data recovery
> specialist?
It would be reasonable to expect that at least some of the data will
have been overwritten due to the system being reinstalled. Only data on
later parts of the disk is likely to be recoverable.
If the system is in roughly the same place as before, this could mean a
large proportion of the data can be saved, but if the system was
previously fragmented all over the place and the earlier part of the
disk was being used for data, then more will have been lost.
Is it even the original hard drive or the same computer? If parts were
swapped out, the data might be gone for good.
--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz
thingy
valuable you would look after it....if you are lazy and you dont....well
tough.
Smith wrote:
> Recently, a friend took in a computer for repair, and when it was
> received back, was stunned to find that all the data had been erased and
> the operating system reinstalled. My friend says he was not given any
> warning by the retailer when he took the computer in that all the data
> could be erased. The retailer has advised that the repair ticket issued
> says that data back up is the responsibility of the user.
Normal practice. catch22 here....There is now way to know the state of
the hd, a repair company could spend hours and possibly $100s recovering
data only to be told it was of no value and no that time wont be paid
for as it was not authorized.
But I think it
> would have been better if my friend had been asked to give specific
> written instructions about how the repairer should deal with the data on
> the computer, do you agree?
yes your friend should have given them specific instructions on
recovery.....Unless it was written down that data recovery should be
attempted and confirmation of the cost sought outside of that the
standard check/fix would be a hd wipe....
I have been on the shop side of this myself and in both cases no one
asked for an attempt to recover the data....in both cases there was a
tape backup unit/zip drive but the owner had not used them in many months...
I still chase my partner even now to make backups and I get
refusals...yet we lost a HD 2 years back and the grief was un-believable...
> My friend has also been advised that the data on the hard drive when it
> was taken in for repair was not backed up by the repairer and that
> neither the repairer nor the retailer will attempt to recover the lost
> data because it is almost certainly irrecoverable. But, in the absence
> of specific authority to erase the data, shouldn't the repairer be
> responsible for attempting to recover the data?
No, not IMHO. The owner of the data should take frequent backups. In any
reasonable scenario there is no way a repairer can afford the hundreds
of dollars in recovering the data unless the owner specifically asks for
and authorizes it.
> Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is the data almost certainly
> irrecoverable, even by a data recovery specialist?
If the disk simply needed a re-install of the OS then the hardware was
OK. In that case most data probably could have been recovered by
mounting the drive as a slave and copying it off....
Should my friend be
> compensated in some way for the loss of all his data?
No, not IMHO.
I know that my
> friend had back up copies of some of his digital photos, but many of the
> e-mails, word processing files etc. have been lost.
Should have done a backup.
The hard drive was
> not faulty so my friend did not think it was of huge importance to back
> up all the data on the computer before it was repaired. Thanks in
> advance for your thoughts on this matter.
How did you know it was not faulty hardware before it was taken in? It
could have been a failing platter....as it turns out not...it is pretty
hard to figure out the failure a low level format and re-install is the
first thing to do if its looking that bad.
You could try taking it to the small claims court but it sounds like
personal data and as such almost impossible to value....If you dont take
backups how can you claim the data is valuable? it was not worth your
time to make them so why should the repairer be socked with data
recovery or compensation?
A good techy could/should have rung you to ask just to make
sure...unless the docket is pretty clear....same techy is probably
expected to repair lots of PCs per hour so wasting time trying to
contact the owner for a straightforward case with no notes to say look
at data recovery cost....
regards
Thing
george
Send all your WP files, address books and other such data to the
external drive.
If you're using Windoze there is a reasonable backup program available
and with the wizard its easy to set up and run.
Tony in Oz
"peterwn" <pet...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:46c104b9$1...@clear.net.nz...
> / Outlook Express files (you cannot simply back these up for reasons best
> known to Micro$oft), but there may be other pockets of 'user' data in
> program directories, etc (the average repairer would
You can back up the e-mail folders C:/Documents and Settings/User name/
Local Settings/Application Data/Identities/{9A7C9A58-F257....
etc}/Microsoft/Outlook Express/then choose which folders, IE inbox, sent
items, etc to back up to your media. You can then import them straight
back into the newly reinstalled program using the import/ Messages. Note
you need to enable the showing of hidden files and folders to find these
folders.
Cheers.
Slim Jim
I find using a free standing proggie like Eudora much easier- can drag
and drop the thing and user data files from drive to drive no problem.
Smith
"Tony in Oz" <m...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:307wi.20075$4A1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
snip
> For interest's sake, was it a big firm, a small private operator, or what
> sort of business? It is, I feel it is a lesson in backing up for your
> friend. It just cannnot be stressed enough that it should be done
> regularly. In fact this post is a timely reminder to me to do mine as it
> hasn't been done in a while. I use exclusively digital camera, and so
> don't have negatives or hard copy photos, but I have them all backed up on
> DVD, which is the most reliable form of backup IMO. Hope this helps at
> least a little bit, I know there's not much comfort to be had from it as
> far as getting your stuff back goes. sorry bout that. next time take it
> somewhere else. Small operators can be good operators, as i reckon they
> try harder. Just watch out for the cowboys. Cheers
Thanks a lot Tony and the others who have replied to my post, your
information is most helpful. The retailer is a big nationwide one which
sends all computer repairs direct to the New Zealand repair agent of the
international computer manufacturer. This retail chain doesn't do any
repairs itself. The laptop was repaired under warranty. Although I know that
everyone should back up their data regularly, not all users are as computer
literate as others. I feel that my friend could have been warned by both the
retailer and the repairer that all the data could be lost when the repair
was done. As has been pointed out in this thread, some data, such as
e-mails, may not be all that easy for novice computer users to back up.
Tony in Oz
Of course they should have been in contact with the customer. But I'm
presuming now it was somewhere like Dick Smith, who don't do repairs, but
send them away, from what you just said, and the places that they send them
to will give even less of a shit about your data than the retailer, or give
a crap about contacting you. The technician that worked on it is probably
under ordrs from his boss to get the damn thing out the door as quickly as
possible, and this is how they do it. cheers.
Smith
> Much would turn on what precisely the repair ticket said and the precise
> way the computer was accepted for repair. Other issues would be whether
> the retailer was a specialist computer retailer or a general retailer who
> sells computers among other things, and whether any warranty terms apply.
> In particular for a warranty repair the warranty terms may allow the
> repairer to restore the computer to 'as sold' - in this case there is no
> respect for user data unless the purchaser contracts separately. If the
> system is riddled with viruses etc, a 'clean' reinstallation may be the
> only option.
The retailer is a general nationwide one which sells computers among lots of
other things. You make a good point about warranty terms, this is worth
looking into as the computer was repaired under warranty.
snip
> Since it is accepted in the computer world that regular backups are
> necessary, it could be argued that your friend contributed to the loss by
> not having a reasonable backup regime in place.
I am an experienced computer user who does have a reasonable external hard
drive backup regime in place. However, I wouldn't have guessed that any
repairer would automatically assume that a user had fully backed up the
computer and thus feel justified in completely wiping a hard drive without
the prior written authority from the user or the retailer. So I have learned
a lot from this thread and I hope others will too!
Smith
"thingy" <thi...@not.here.commy> wrote in message
news:92e7p4-...@news.vuw.ac.nz...
>I have seen this so many times it is just not true, if the data is valuable
>you would look after it....if you are lazy and you dont....well tough.
Ouch, surely lots of users would expect to be consulted before their
property is deleted from their computers by repairers?
>
> Smith wrote:
>> Recently, a friend took in a computer for repair, and when it was
>> received back, was stunned to find that all the data had been erased and
>> the operating system reinstalled. My friend says he was not given any
>> warning by the retailer when he took the computer in that all the data
>> could be erased. The retailer has advised that the repair ticket issued
>> says that data back up is the responsibility of the user.
>
> Normal practice. catch22 here....There is now way to know the state of the
> hd, a repair company could spend hours and possibly $100s recovering data
> only to be told it was of no value and no that time wont be paid for as it
> was not authorized.
>
> But I think it
>> would have been better if my friend had been asked to give specific
>> written instructions about how the repairer should deal with the data on
>> the computer, do you agree?
>
> yes your friend should have given them specific instructions on
> recovery.....Unless it was written down that data recovery should be
> attempted and confirmation of the cost sought outside of that the standard
> check/fix would be a hd wipe....
In my humble opinion, I think that people need to have the backup issue
specifically drawn to their attention when they take their computers in for
repair. Even relatively experienced computer users wouldn't necessarily be
expected to know that a repairer is likely to erase their hard drives
without the need for their prior written authorisation.
snip
> No, not IMHO. The owner of the data should take frequent backups. In any
> reasonable scenario there is no way a repairer can afford the hundreds of
> dollars in recovering the data unless the owner specifically asks for and
> authorizes it.
I have just talked to a dedicated computer retailer who also does their own
repairs. They told me that they never delete data from a client's hard drive
unless they receive specific authority to do so from that client. This is
the policy that I expected all repairers would adopt, and I commend all
those repairers who have this policy!
Miguel
> It would be reasonable to expect that at least some of the data will
> have been overwritten due to the system being reinstalled. Only data on
> later parts of the disk is likely to be recoverable.
>
> If the system is in roughly the same place as before, this could mean a
> large proportion of the data can be saved, but if the system was
> previously fragmented all over the place and the earlier part of the
> disk was being used for data, then more will have been lost.
>
> Is it even the original hard drive or the same computer? If parts were
> swapped out, the data might be gone for good.
Hello David...With absolute respect to both yourself and peterwn, I'd
advise the original poster to remain optimistic regarding the data
recovery as opposed to your slightly less optimistic (but possibly more
realistic) view. He/she should head on over to....
I've used Autopsy four times in the last year to recover data from
reformatted hard drives. Once with little to show for it, twice with
quite good results and once with nearly full recovery.
I'm certainly no computer guru. But the software at sleuthkit definitely
makes data recovery for the masses a reality.
The state of disk fragmentation pre-install is luck of the draw. The
contents of the swap file pre-install are also luck of the draw. The
original poster has nothing to lose by giving Autopsy a go.
Regards
Miguel
Smith
"David Empson" <dem...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote in message
news:1i2u815.5fs46f2pmhe6N%dem...@actrix.gen.nz...
But wouldn't a computer user expect to be consulted if a repairer decides
it's necessary to delete their data "for good". Sometimes, computers can
break down suddenly without warning. This happened to me once when the power
supply failed. In these circumstances, the user may not have had a chance to
have fully backed up data that had been created recently. I have taken in
computers for servicing two or three times over the years, and I never
thought to ask the repairers about whether they would want to delete all my
data. I just assumed they would preserve my data, and I guess there would be
a lot of other computer users who would also make this assumption.
Some people in this thread maintain that not all the data can be recovered
once a clean operating system reinstall has been done. The retailer agrees
and told my friend that, even if hundreds of dollars was spent on trying to
recover the data, much of it might still be lost or be unusable if
recovered. This surprises me, I thought that law enforcement agencies, for
example, could recover almost anything from a hard drive, no matter what
reformatting or physical damage the drive had sustained.
Smith
"Miguel" <migue...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f9r8m4$gv9$1...@aioe.org...
> Hello David...With absolute respect to both yourself and peterwn, I'd
> advise the original poster to remain optimistic regarding the data
> recovery as opposed to your slightly less optimistic (but possibly more
> realistic) view. He/she should head on over to....
>
> http://www.sleuthkit.org/
>
> I've used Autopsy four times in the last year to recover data from
> reformatted hard drives. Once with little to show for it, twice with
> quite good results and once with nearly full recovery.
>
> I'm certainly no computer guru. But the software at sleuthkit definitely
> makes data recovery for the masses a reality.
>
> The state of disk fragmentation pre-install is luck of the draw. The
> contents of the swap file pre-install are also luck of the draw. The
> original poster has nothing to lose by giving Autopsy a go.
Thanks Miguel, this would be worth a try.
Tony in Oz
>
> "David Empson" <dem...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote in message
> news:1i2u815.5fs46f2pmhe6N%dem...@actrix.gen.nz...
>> Smith <Sm...@lostdata.org> wrote:
>>
> But wouldn't a computer user expect to be consulted if a repairer decides
> it's necessary to delete their data "for good". Sometimes, computers can
> break down suddenly without warning. This happened to me once when the
> power supply failed.
failing, this woud not lead to a loss of data, as it does not usually entail
damage to the HDD. Soon as you replace the PSU, your good to go. About a 15
minute job. This is one of the more spectacular repairs you can do for the
inexperienced user. One minute their machine is completely dead, and quarter
of an hour later you have it up and running with no data loss. Impresses the
hell out of them!
In these circumstances, the user may not have had a chance to
> have fully backed up data that had been created recently. I have taken in
> computers for servicing two or three times over the years, and I never
> thought to ask the repairers about whether they would want to delete all
> my data.
Its not a matter of them wanting to delete all your data. In some cases
the data is not recoverable anyway, or not easily recoverable. Or sometimes
its a matter of them not giving a crap about your data. You are the only
person that gives as much of a dan about it, so it is your responsibility to
back it up. By all means get hold of the data recovery experts. if you are
in Auckland, One that comes to mind is Computer Forensics.
I just assumed they would preserve my data,
ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME, as the geeks are apt to say.
and I guess there would be
> a lot of other computer users who would also make this assumption.
>
> Some people in this thread maintain that not all the data can be recovered
> once a clean operating system reinstall has been done. The retailer agrees
> and told my friend that, even if hundreds of dollars was spent on trying
> to recover the data, much of it might still be lost or be unusable if
> recovered.
He is dead right, for reasons explained elsewhere in this thread. What was
replaced on the machine? Is it the same HDD it went in with? If they have
replaced the drive, then your data won't ever have been on it so there will
be nothing to recover.
This surprises me, I thought that law enforcement agencies, for
> example, could recover almost anything from a hard drive, no matter what
> reformatting or physical damage the drive had sustained.
Yes law enforcement can recover more than the average person, but they can
only do the same as outfits like Computer Forensics. They will dismantle a
drive and read bits and pieces and fragments of it and try and put it all
together, but I repeat, this is COSTLY and TIME CONSUMING. Unless the data
is absolutely critical and irreplaceable, will be out of most peoples
financial reach. When a file is deleted, all it does is kill the reference
to it, so it becomes invisible, and makes the area on the drive that it was
taking up available for over writing. Once that space has been overwritten,
it will be impossible to recover the data, even by Forensics. A good
"shredding program will delete files and overwrite the space they took up 5
or more times, to ensure the data will not be recovered.
>
bustabraincell
<gho...@yabadabado.cnn wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 04:24:11 GMT, "Tony in Oz" <m...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >"Smith" <Sm...@lostdata.org> wrote in message
> >news:46c126d6$1...@clear.net.nz...
>
> >>news:1i2u815.5fs46f2pmhe6N%dem...@actrix.gen.nz...
> >>> Smith <Sm...@lostdata.org> wrote:
>
> >> But wouldn't a computer user expect to be consulted if a repairer decides
> >> it's necessary to delete their data "for good". Sometimes, computers can
> >> break down suddenly without warning. This happened to me once when the
> >> power supply failed.
> > Assuming you are talking about the Power Suply unit in the computer
> >failing, this woud not lead to a loss of data,
>
>From my experiance, Australian Feds are pretty accomplished at
retrieving your data, but they are very slow, and sometimes just not
worth it!
Nicolaas Hawkins
in <news:0uc2c31kpc26j0qep...@4ax.com>:
> Yes Idiots can only think that the way to fix a PC is to format the hard drive, I have never done
> that in my life....
Never fixed a PC in your life? Why does that have a ring of
believability?
>
> By law they must warn the customer, so now you can sue the..
More of your special kind of bullshit, Quote or cite the relevant law.
You can't.
Tony in Oz
"Greg House" <gho...@yabadabado.cnn> wrote in message >> Assuming you are
>>failing, this woud not lead to a loss of data,
>
>
>
> is working.
>
Thats nit picking Greg. Note I said "usually". I have replaced many many
PSUs and not once has it caused damage to any files. Yes theoretically it
could, as could a power surge or cut when the machine is reading or
writing.
Mark Robinson
Much as I hate to agree with Woger,
Crimes Act 1961:
> [250Damaging or interfering with computer system
> (1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years who intentionally or recklessly destroys, damages, or alters any computer system if he or she knows or ought to know that danger to life is likely to result.
> (2)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who intentionally or recklessly, and without authorisation, knowing that he or she is not authorised, or being reckless as to whether or not he or she is authorised,—
> (a)damages, deletes, modifies, or otherwise interferes with or impairs any data or software in any computer system; or
> (b)causes any data or software in any computer system to be damaged, deleted, modified, or otherwise interfered with or impaired; or
> (c)causes any computer system to—
> (i)fail; or
> (ii)deny service to any authorised users.]
> [252Accessing computer system without authorisation
> (1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years who intentionally accesses, directly or indirectly, any computer system without authorisation, knowing that he or she is not authorised to access that computer system, or being reckless as to whether or not he or she is authorised to access that computer system.
> (2)To avoid doubt, subsection (1) does not apply if a person who is authorised to access a computer system accesses that computer system for a purpose other than the one for which that person was given access.
> (3)To avoid doubt, subsection (1) does not apply if access to a computer system is gained by a law enforcement agency—
> (a)under the execution of an interception warrantor search warrant; or
> (b)under the authority of any Act or rule of the common law.]
> [269Intentional damage
> (1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years who intentionally or recklessly destroys or damages any property if he or she knows or ought to know that danger to life is likely to result.
> (2)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who—
> (a)intentionally or recklessly, and without claim of right, destroys or damages any property in which that person has no interest; or
> (b)intentionally or recklessly, and without claim of right, destroys or damages any property with intent to obtain any benefit, or with intent to cause loss to any other person.
> (3)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who intentionally destroys or damages any property with reckless disregard for the safety of any other property.]
So, unless the person doing the work knows without doubt that the customer has
explicitly authorised the destruction of the data they are looking at 7 years
in jail.
Further, the representation that the original existing data on the disk is
'almost certainly irrecoverable' is false. Such data is almost certainly
recoverable. This deception used to coerce acceptance of the contract renders
the contract invalid and clears the way for prosecution under the provisions
above and civil action for damages.
It's worth making a phone call before you format a customer's drive.
Tony in Oz
"Nicolaas Hawkins" <grump...@t.large> wrote in message
news:12a21oayooe0u$.dlg@nrph.xnet.nz...
I wasn't even going to bother responding to that particular piece of
bullshit Nicolaas.... the PC repair industry is completely unregulated in
NZ
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<gho...@yabadabado.cnn wrote:
> Yes Idiots can only think that the way to fix a PC is to format the hard
> drive...
Well, if they're running Dimdows, a full reinstall is often the only way to
solve problems, isn't it?
But if all your user data was on a separate partition, not the same as the
OS partition, then it wouldn't all have been lost in the reinstall. You can
do that with reasonable operating systems. But I guess not with Dimdows...
Bruce Sinclair
>Some people in this thread maintain that not all the data can be recovered
>once a clean operating system reinstall has been done. The retailer agrees
>and told my friend that, even if hundreds of dollars was spent on trying to
>recover the data, much of it might still be lost or be unusable if
>recovered. This surprises me, I thought that law enforcement agencies, for
>example, could recover almost anything from a hard drive, no matter what
>reformatting or physical damage the drive had sustained.
Depends on how it's done IIRC. A 'deleted' file just has it's pointer
deleted (meaning you can't find it) and the data areas marked as 'free'. The
data is still there (or mostly :) ) - until you write something over it.
There is a wipeout option in some systems that actively writes zeros to file
locations, making the data very hard to recover. This is what you'd expect
businesses etc to use if they were selling or giving away their old
computers for example.
I can't imagine any computer servicer wiping the disk before reinstalling,
so as David suggested (again IIRC) there may well be some data still there.
A question - if the email address book is recoverable, is there anything
else major actually stored on email ? There shouldn't be ... but I do know
some people that leave important files in there. Not clever IMO. :)
I wouldn't think the actual emails themselves worth the bother.
Bruce Sinclair
(snip)
>It's worth making a phone call before you format a customer's drive.
.. for no other reasons than to keep the customer on side and wanting to
return in the future. Bad form that company.
Now, say who it is so we can avoid them ... another reason ... hmmm. :)
Gordon
Really? Whatever!
Well I have done it for many moons. Data on another drive letter, as MS windows
calls it. The problem is that the user has to understand the concept and the
programmes have to be told about where you want the data. Not the default.
Nicolaas Hawkins
<use...@blackhole.zl2tod.net> wrote in
<news:46C13FCE...@blackhole.zl2tod.net>:
> Much as I hate to agree with Woger,
>
> Crimes Act 1961:
>> [250Damaging or interfering with computer system
>> (1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years who intentionally or recklessly destroys, damages, or alters any computer system if he or she knows or ought to know that danger to life is likely to result.
>> (2)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who intentionally or recklessly, and without authorisation, knowing that he or she is not authorised, or being reckless as to whether or not he or she is authorised,?
>> (a)damages, deletes, modifies, or otherwise interferes with or impairs any data or software in any computer system; or
>> (b)causes any data or software in any computer system to be damaged, deleted, modified, or otherwise interfered with or impaired; or
>> (c)causes any computer system to?
>> (i)fail; or
>> (ii)deny service to any authorised users.]
>
>> [252Accessing computer system without authorisation
>> (1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years who intentionally accesses, directly or indirectly, any computer system without authorisation, knowing that he or she is not authorised to access that computer system, or being reckless as to whether or not he or she is authorised to access that computer system.
>> (2)To avoid doubt, subsection (1) does not apply if a person who is authorised to access a computer system accesses that computer system for a purpose other than the one for which that person was given access.
>> (3)To avoid doubt, subsection (1) does not apply if access to a computer system is gained by a law enforcement agency?
>> (a)under the execution of an interception warrantor search warrant; or
>> (b)under the authority of any Act or rule of the common law.]
>
>> [269Intentional damage
>> (1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years who intentionally or recklessly destroys or damages any property if he or she knows or ought to know that danger to life is likely to result.
>> (2)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who?
>> (a)intentionally or recklessly, and without claim of right, destroys or damages any property in which that person has no interest; or
>> (b)intentionally or recklessly, and without claim of right, destroys or damages any property with intent to obtain any benefit, or with intent to cause loss to any other person.
>> (3)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who intentionally destroys or damages any property with reckless disregard for the safety of any other property.]
>
> So, unless the person doing the work knows without doubt that the customer has
> explicitly authorised the destruction of the data they are looking at 7 years
> in jail.
>
> Further, the representation that the original existing data on the disk is
> 'almost certainly irrecoverable' is false. Such data is almost certainly
> recoverable. This deception used to coerce acceptance of the contract renders
> the contract invalid and clears the way for prosecution under the provisions
> above and civil action for damages.
>
> It's worth making a phone call before you format a customer's drive.
I certainly concur with your view that communicating with the owner and
obtaining explicit authorisation would have a lot to recommend it, even if
only from the "cover your ass" viewpoint.
I believe it could be argued successfully, however, that implicit in the
contract entered into when the owner leaves the computer with the
serviceman/company to be repaired, is the owner's consent for the
serviceman/company or its agents (etc) to access or otherwise deal with
any data which may be on the system unless explicitly agreed to the
contrary [in which case I would expect the serviceman/company to refuse
the job]
I would further suggest that intentionality (is that a word?) or
recklessness in this context would be difficult to prove - the moreso if
the serviceman/company were to state that reasonable efforts were made to
do so (not so, though, in this case, it seems).
--
Nicolaas.
... There's always a lot to be thankful for if you take time to look for
it. For example, I am sitting here thinking how nice it is that wrinkles
don't hurt.
Tony in Oz
"Mark Robinson" <use...@blackhole.zl2tod.net> wrote in message
news:46C13FCE...@blackhole.zl2tod.net...
It may be recoverable. Or it may not. or it may be partially
recoverable. But is it worthwhile trying, given the likely cost of doing so?
It is a simple matter for the customer to back up his or her data. Much
simpler and cheaper. i fail to understand whats hard about this concept. And
yes, as I stated, I always enquired about the status of the data back up,
and included it as part of the job if necessary. I would say the company
dealing with the OP's computer would have it all stitched up in the
fineprint. it would be Acer or HP or some such company.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> On 2007-08-14, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand>
> wrote:
>> In message <0uc2c31kpc26j0qep...@4ax.com>, Greg House
>><gho...@yabadabado.cnn wrote:
>>
>>> Yes Idiots can only think that the way to fix a PC is to format the hard
>>> drive...
>>
>> Well, if they're running Dimdows, a full reinstall is often the only way
>> to solve problems, isn't it?
>>
>> But if all your user data was on a separate partition, not the same as
>> the OS partition, then it wouldn't all have been lost in the reinstall.
>> You can do that with reasonable operating systems. But I guess not with
>> Dimdows...
>
> Well I have done it for many moons. Data on another drive letter, as MS
> windows calls it. The problem is that the user has to understand the
> concept and the programmes have to be told about where you want the data.
> Not the default.
One problem is with Windows there is a separate drive letter involved, with
Linux there isn't. I imagine there are lots of lazy Windows programmers who
assume that pathnames always begin with C:, and get upset if they have to
run from anywhere else.
Also in Linux all your normal applications run as a non-privileged user. If
you're logged in as username "fred", then the only place you can write to
is "/home/fred" (and subdirectories thereof), so the programs you run have
no choice about where they save their stuff.
Richard
> Recently, a friend took in a computer for repair, and when it was
> received back, was stunned to find that all the data had been erased and
> the operating system reinstalled. My friend says he was not given any
> warning by the retailer when he took the computer in that all the data
> could be erased. The retailer has advised that the repair ticket issued
> says that data back up is the responsibility of the user. But I think it
> would have been better if my friend had been asked to give specific
> written instructions about how the repairer should deal with the data on
> the computer, do you agree?
>
> My friend has also been advised that the data on the hard drive when it
> was taken in for repair was not backed up by the repairer and that
> neither the repairer nor the retailer will attempt to recover the lost
> data because it is almost certainly irrecoverable. But, in the absence
> of specific authority to erase the data, shouldn't the repairer be
> responsible for attempting to recover the data?
>
> Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is the data almost certainly
> irrecoverable, even by a data recovery specialist? Should my friend be
> compensated in some way for the loss of all his data? I know that my
> friend had back up copies of some of his digital photos, but many of the
> e-mails, word processing files etc. have been lost. The hard drive was
> not faulty so my friend did not think it was of huge importance to back
> up all the data on the computer before it was repaired. Thanks in
> advance for your thoughts on this matter.
If it was important, he would have it backed up, clearly the lost data
was not important, so re-download the screensavers and move along...
I think that expecting to get the data back is foolish, how would you
know you were going to get the same machine back again?
I know of at least 2 companies that send computers back without the
harddrives since they have no idea what happens to them when they are
being serviced. Perhaps your friend should do that next time?
Richard
> Some people in this thread maintain that not all the data can be
> recovered once a clean operating system reinstall has been done. The
> retailer agrees and told my friend that, even if hundreds of dollars was
> spent on trying to recover the data, much of it might still be lost or
> be unusable if recovered. This surprises me, I thought that law
> enforcement agencies, for example, could recover almost anything from a
> hard drive, no matter what reformatting or physical damage the drive had
> sustained.
You have being watching too much CSI - with modern platters, if
somethings owerwritten, its pretty much a gonner, since the data density
is so tight the old mfm drive era tricks of slightly running off the
track and similar dont work.
Squiggle
> One problem is with Windows there is a separate drive letter involved, with
> Linux there isn't. I imagine there are lots of lazy Windows programmers who
> assume that pathnames always begin with C:, and get upset if they have to
> run from anywhere else.
Yes, you are imagining things again.
Even old legacy DOS apps dont usually have a problem with being
installed on D:, E: or where ever. Just a case of choosing a different
drive/directory at install time usually.
Bobs
>
> There is however a problem here. What needed to be backed-up? The
> stuff in each user's 'My Documents' is easy, then an 'export' of Outlook
> / Outlook Express files (you cannot simply back these up for reasons
> best known to Micro$oft)
Easily backed up. I used to do it at my old job all the time.
Bobs
Easily done at install time you cretin. You must really suck at IT
Richard
However a lot dont look for the proper locations for the user directory
or program files.
You just have to look at the number of non-english windows machines that
end up with a program files directory on the C drive when some arrogent
usually american programmer decides that the world does things their
way. Same for date formats.
Smith
"Gordon" <flas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5id07tF...@mid.individual.net...
As a matter of interest, my friend's hard drive was partitioned into two
separate areas, described as C and D. All the data on both C and D was
deleted. I'm not sure why they had to delete the data on D as well as C.
Daniel Parker
> > Recently, a friend took in a computer for repair, and when it was received
> > back, was stunned to find that all the data had been erased and the
> > operating system reinstalled. My friend says he was not given any warning
> > by the retailer when he took the computer in that all the data could be
> > erased. The retailer has advised that the repair ticket issued says that
> > data back up is the responsibility of the user. But I think it would have
> > been better if my friend had been asked to give specific written
> > instructions about how the repairer should deal with the data on the
> > computer, do you agree?
My company does computer repairs.. and this is what the client agrees to
when they send in their machine for servicing.
"I understand that During the course of a repair, it is possible that
software or data on your hard disk may be erased. We cannot
overemphasize the importance of backing up your hard disk before sending
your product to us for service. We disclaim responsibility for all loss,
corruption, or damage to software applications, data, or any information
stored in any product sent to us for service. *YOU* are responsible for
your data."
While we dont usually just nuke data from the hard disk, if the machine
is under warranty, and the failure is hard disk related, the drive is
replaced and the client never gets to see it again, as we send it back
to the manufacturer for a credit.
If the machine has a software fault, then we don't deem that to be a
warranty job anyway, so we would contact the client with options at that
point.
I'm not sure how much clearer we could be than getting the client to
agree to the statement above. Thoughts?
Daniel
Enkidu
Cheers,
Cliff
--
Have you ever noticed that if something is advertised as 'amusing' or
'hilarious', it usually isn't?
Ross
wrote:
>I thought that law enforcement agencies, for
>example, could recover almost anything from a hard drive, no matter what
>reformatting or physical damage the drive had sustained.
No. If you wipe your file allocation tables on a heavily fragmented
hard drive, then getting back a large file is like doing the largest
jigsaw puzzle ever invented.
If you write random data over the whole drive (even once), then it is
impossible to recover anything. (despite an old urban myth that said
otherwise).
Ross
I've had a bad power-supply kill a HDD. Then it killed it's
replacement a week or so later.
Richard
Only if your dumb enough to use fat, ntfs is much better at giving you
usable recovered files.
In the old old days, they could recover stuff by adjusting the tracking
of the heads of the hdd since they were mechanical and didn't always hit
the same place so the rewrite may have left some usable traces of the
old at the edges. Thats wasted space and you can be sure that a modern
drive is pushing the boundaries of physics to store all it can on there,
making recovery virtually impossible.
What you have to watch for is the remapped sectors, if a sector dies and
the drive uses a spare in its place, there is no erasing of the
defective one, and there could be enough of a jpeg left in it to get you
in trouble.
Smith
"Richard" <ri...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:46c152f5$1...@news.orcon.net.nz...
> If it was important, he would have it backed up, clearly the lost data was
> not important, so re-download the screensavers and move along...
>
> I think that expecting to get the data back is foolish, how would you know
> you were going to get the same machine back again?
>
> I know of at least 2 companies that send computers back without the
> harddrives since they have no idea what happens to them when they are
> being serviced. Perhaps your friend should do that next time?
I wonder how many people back up their e-mails every day or their word
processing files on to CDs, DVDs or an external hard drive. Now I would
expect anyone in business to do this, but there are huge numbers of
individuals who also use computers who wouldn't keep to a strict backing up
schedule. Even when you take a computer in for servicing, I bet a lot of
individuals wouldn't even think that they should try and back up word
processing files and e-mails before taking the computer in. They certainly
wouldn't expect a repair company to get rid of all their data, after all, it
is their legal property.
But in this instance, I'm told that the conditions on the receipt issued for
the repair of the computer say that data back up is the responsibility of
the owner and that the owner should have read this ticket and stopped the
servicing going ahead if the computer had not been backed up properly.
However, in this case, I think it would have helped my friend if the
retailer had drawn my friend's attention to this condition on the ticket and
asked whether the data on the computer had been backed up.
Smith
"Daniel Parker" <ju...@totallymac.com> wrote in message
news:junk-1D59A3.2...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
Do you require the client to sign a piece of paper with these conditions on
it? I know that some computer repairers think this issue is important enough
to ask the client to agree in writing to such terms. If you just issue a
receipt for servicing with a lot of fine print on it, I don't think this is
as good IMHO as requiring the customer to accept such terms in writing. I
commend your company for having such a clear policy on this issue.
Jason Rumney
> My company does computer repairs.. and this is what the client agrees to
> when they send in their machine for servicing.
Computer use is no longer limited to technical users, many of the
users today probably don't even know what a backup is, or they may
attempt a backup without knowing what they're doing and end up with a
backup of their Program Files directory, or the shortcuts in their
Start Menu even. Computer repair shops should offer a backup, at least
as an additional service - say $10 to back up the PC before starting
work, $50 if the user needs anything restored or wants the backup kept
for longer than a month (in this case, might as well just burn it to
DVDs and give them a copy). If the hard-drive is dead, it can't be
helped, but the standard repair procedure for any software problem
these days seems to be to reinstall Windows, and I have even heard of
this being done when people send their PC in for a memory upgrade or
similar non-problem. Obliterating the user's data as part of the
standard procedure should not be considered acceptable.
bustabraincell
I recommend employing the Australian Federal Police for file
retrieval....they are slow, but thourough
Daniel Parker
wrote:
> > "I understand that During the course of a repair, it is possible that
> > software or data on your hard disk may be erased. We cannot
> > overemphasize the importance of backing up your hard disk before sending
> > your product to us for service. We disclaim responsibility for all loss,
> > corruption, or damage to software applications, data, or any information
> > stored in any product sent to us for service. *YOU* are responsible for
> > your data."
> >
>
> Do you require the client to sign a piece of paper with these conditions on
> it? I know that some computer repairers think this issue is important enough
> to ask the client to agree in writing to such terms. If you just issue a
> receipt for servicing with a lot of fine print on it, I don't think this is
> as good IMHO as requiring the customer to accept such terms in writing. I
> commend your company for having such a clear policy on this issue.
No we don't, as our service forms are online web pages. (We send the
client packaging for their repair etc)
As our form will not allow the user to submit a service request prior to
agreeing to the statement above, there can never be a situation where we
send out packaging for a job without it being agreed to beforehand.
Not ideal, but as we never see the client face to face anyway, having
some random signature on a piece of paper wouldn't help us anyway, as we
couldn't identify that the clients child didn't sign it etc.
We do try to make it clear.. as in the long run, it will cause us less
grief.
Daniel
Richard
Well, emails I download to 2 different computers via imap, and there is
also the server storage. When I move things off to local folders, I back
those up to dvd-r before deleting off the server, so there is always 2
copys of everything.
Sent items is a bit more difficult. I move those onto a folder on the
server if I want to keep it.
I am more worried about my data on the computer then the loss of it, who
knows what those geeks are looking for on there, saved passwords, etc...
all too much of a worry to send to someone into that sort of thing.
bustabraincell
> Smith wrote:
>
> > "Richard" <r...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
if you have bin collecting kiddie-porn, dont worry, you are already
fucked, there will be a cell booked for you at Paremoremo, for your
sake (and for the sake of the kids, i hope you havent.
David Empson
> "David Empson" <dem...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote in message
> news:1i2u815.5fs46f2pmhe6N%dem...@actrix.gen.nz...
> > Is it even the original hard drive or the same computer? If parts were
> > swapped out, the data might be gone for good.
>
> But wouldn't a computer user expect to be consulted if a repairer decides
> it's necessary to delete their data "for good".
I quite agree.
The safety of the user's data should be of primary concern to the
repairer, and any danger to that data should be dealt with by
communicating with the owner before anything might happen to it.
Unfortunately this doesn't happen in all cases.
Some might have a small print warning in the repair contract that any
data loss isn't their responsibility.
> Some people in this thread maintain that not all the data can be recovered
> once a clean operating system reinstall has been done.
It depends on whereabouts on the disk the data was located.
If you are very lucky and all the important data was located toward the
end of the disk, then with the right software, it may be possible to
recover nearly all of it, though with a lot of cleanup work required
(e.g. it might not be able to recover the names or directory structure
for many files, only their content).
It is more likely that some of the data will have been overwritten and
not be recoverable short of spending thousands of dollars.
I agree with other posters. Don't panic yet. Try to find a good data
recovery tool for your operating system and you may find you get enough
back that the rest isn't worth pursuing.
In the meantime, it is important to stop using that drive. Anything else
done with it is likely to overwrite more data. You will probably need a
second hard drive to boot from and to store recovered data.
> The retailer agrees and told my friend that, even if hundreds of dollars
> was spent on trying to recover the data, much of it might still be lost or
> be unusable if recovered. This surprises me, I thought that law
> enforcement agencies, for example, could recover almost anything from a
> hard drive, no matter what reformatting or physical damage the drive had
> sustained.
Yes, in principle.
If the drive has just been "formatted", the data could all be intact
(but not visible), as formatting typically only rewrites the directory
information (setting up a new empty directory). The data can be
recovered to varying degrees of success using software which can search
the drive for deleted files.
If the data on the drive has been overwritten, e.g. by reinstalling
system software, then the recovery task is much harder. The files that
were not overwritten might be partly or completely recoverable using the
same tools as above.
Anything which has been overwritten can only be recovered by dismantling
the hard drive and using an electron scanning microscope to measure the
slight magnetic residue of data which was overwritten. This is a very
expensive operation and may not be 100% successful. The more times the
data has been overwritten, the harder it will be to read it back again.
--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz
Liam Greenwood
> My company does computer repairs.. and this is what the client agrees to
> when they send in their machine for servicing.
>
> "I understand that During the course of a repair, it is possible that
> software or data on your hard disk may be erased. We cannot
> overemphasize the importance of backing up your hard disk before sending
> your product to us for service. We disclaim responsibility for all loss,
> corruption, or damage to software applications, data, or any information
> stored in any product sent to us for service. *YOU* are responsible for
> your data."
>
and as a first option, format your hard drive - even if you bring it
in because of a sticky key and there is nothing wrong with the
disk'. Which is how most of the 'repair' shops around here seem to
operate.
Cheers, Liam
Smith
snip
> If the drive has just been "formatted", the data could all be intact
> (but not visible), as formatting typically only rewrites the directory
> information (setting up a new empty directory). The data can be
> recovered to varying degrees of success using software which can search
> the drive for deleted files.
>
> If the data on the drive has been overwritten, e.g. by reinstalling
> system software, then the recovery task is much harder. The files that
> were not overwritten might be partly or completely recoverable using the
> same tools as above.
>
> Anything which has been overwritten can only be recovered by dismantling
> the hard drive and using an electron scanning microscope to measure the
> slight magnetic residue of data which was overwritten. This is a very
> expensive operation and may not be 100% successful. The more times the
> data has been overwritten, the harder it will be to read it back again.
Thanks a lot David for this interesting information. What puzzles me about
this case is that the service people also deleted all the data from the D
partition of the drive, which is especially set aside for data. I can't
understand why it was necessary to do this. I thought you could do a clean
operating system reinstall by just working on the C partition of the hard
drive. This makes me wonder whether a new hard drive was installed, but
there would be no logical reason to do this, there was nothing wrong with
the old hard drive.
george
> "David Empson" <demp...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote in message
They probably just put a windoze disk in, pushed Setup and wandered
off for a cuppa.
I always told customers who relied upon their computor systems to
install RAID arrays
thingy
>
> "thingy" <thi...@not.here.commy> wrote in message
> news:92e7p4-...@news.vuw.ac.nz...
>> I have seen this so many times it is just not true, if the data is
>> valuable you would look after it....if you are lazy and you
>> dont....well tough.
>
> Ouch, surely lots of users would expect to be consulted before their
> property is deleted from their computers by repairers?
From experience I have found that most users dont want to pay so you
waste time trying to contact them. Trying to get data off a buggered
harddrive can run to 2~3+ hours of work, so $200~300 in labour....If you
had clearly specified that data recovery was needed then yes you would
have a good case....at least in so far as getting the job for free
because they made a mess of it...
BUT again and this is un-escapable, if the data was valuable it should
have been backed up, no ifs no buts IMHO. I am sorry but I have long
given up sympathy for anyone who fails to back up their valuable data
and relies on a single point of failure ie a hd with no
redundancy...even my partner is too lazy and she lost her Mac hd 2 years
ago and screamed murder....so should know better...
>> Smith wrote:
>>> Recently, a friend took in a computer for repair, and when it was
>>> received back, was stunned to find that all the data had been erased
>>> and the operating system reinstalled. My friend says he was not given
>>> any warning by the retailer when he took the computer in that all the
>>> data could be erased. The retailer has advised that the repair ticket
>>> issued says that data back up is the responsibility of the user.
>>
>> Normal practice. catch22 here....There is now way to know the state of
>> the hd, a repair company could spend hours and possibly $100s
>> recovering data only to be told it was of no value and no that time
>> wont be paid for as it was not authorized.
>>
>> But I think it
>>> would have been better if my friend had been asked to give specific
>>> written instructions about how the repairer should deal with the data
>>> on the computer, do you agree?
>>
>> yes your friend should have given them specific instructions on
>> recovery.....Unless it was written down that data recovery should be
>> attempted and confirmation of the cost sought outside of that the
>> standard check/fix would be a hd wipe....
>
> In my humble opinion, I think that people need to have the backup issue
> specifically drawn to their attention when they take their computers in
> for repair. Even relatively experienced computer users wouldn't
> necessarily be expected to know that a repairer is likely to erase their
> hard drives without the need for their prior written authorisation.
>
> snip
>
>> No, not IMHO. The owner of the data should take frequent backups. In
>> any reasonable scenario there is no way a repairer can afford the
>> hundreds of dollars in recovering the data unless the owner
>> specifically asks for and authorizes it.
>
> I have just talked to a dedicated computer retailer who also does their
> own repairs. They told me that they never delete data from a client's
> hard drive unless they receive specific authority to do so from that
> client. This is the policy that I expected all repairers would adopt,
> and I commend all those repairers who have this policy!
Fair enough, but the other retailer also had a clear policy, the data
was the owners responsibility, especially if it is a warrantee
claim?...the repairer probably gets a small fixed fee and that's all and
the business owner probably expects the techy to do so many repairs per
hour....kinda catch22.
Still, make regular backups and use these to repair next time, or
clearley state that data recovery is requested, even cross out the term
data is the owners responsibility at the same time. I am all for
personal experience and learning from this, you have gone out and
researched so are aware of some issues and pitfalls if this ever happens
again, most people dont even go that far......
I'd even suggest a raided pair of disks if your motherboard has RAID
capability.
Also this policy does not protect you from a dead/dying hd though....it
just means that if the OS is broken an effort is made to get the data
off...if you want to pay for it.
regards
Thing
SteveM
> Recently, a friend took in a computer for repair, and when it was
> received back, was stunned to find that all the data had been erased
> and the operating system reinstalled. My friend says he was not given
> any warning by the retailer when he took the computer in that all the
> data could be erased. The retailer has advised that the repair ticket
> issued says that data back up is the responsibility of the user. But I
> think it would have been better if my friend had been asked to give
> specific written instructions about how the repairer should deal with
> the data on the computer, do you agree?
>
> My friend has also been advised that the data on the hard drive when
> it was taken in for repair was not backed up by the repairer and that
> neither the repairer nor the retailer will attempt to recover the lost
> data because it is almost certainly irrecoverable. But, in the absence
> of specific authority to erase the data, shouldn't the repairer be
> responsible for attempting to recover the data?
>
> Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is the data almost certainly
> irrecoverable, even by a data recovery specialist? Should my friend be
> compensated in some way for the loss of all his data? I know that my
> friend had back up copies of some of his digital photos, but many of
> the e-mails, word processing files etc. have been lost. The hard drive
> was not faulty so my friend did not think it was of huge importance to
> back up all the data on the computer before it was repaired. Thanks in
> advance for your thoughts on this matter.
>
>
>
>
I used to work part time for Acer doing warranty repair work and I aways
tried to get customer data off regardless of the official stance of Acer
to just reimage machines when the OS was borked, or when the drive was
failing and was replaced.
However this got me into trouble (kind of) once. I worked on a laptop
with a failing drive, only a few bad sectors, so I copied off all the
data I could find. Install new HDD and reimaged with the factory image
for that machine. Partitioned the drive into C: and D: and put all his
data on D: (too much to put on a DVD) for him to copy back to where he
wanted it.
Customer picks it up later that day, extreemly happy, especially because
I did not charge him for the data recovery work.
Two days later he comes back in asking for a copy of his backup. For
space and privacy reasons we don't keep customers data any longer than
necessary so my copy was gone, and the old hard drive was already on
its' way back to Seagate in Singapore for warranty.
Anyhow, this guy had decided to reformat his drive for some reason and
deleted everything, including all his university work.
He jumps up and down, ranting and raving, asking why we did not still
have his data backup and then demanded we somehow get Seagate to find the
old drive in the shipment we sent back (100's and 100's of drives)
and send it back to him.
Needless to say we were not able to do this.
Well, he made phonecalls, sent letters and worked his way up the chain
with no luck and eventually resigned himself that he had f**d-up and
dropped it.
I must have lost over a days work time due to the drama it caused me
internally.
SteveM
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> One problem is with Windows there is a separate drive letter involved,
>> with Linux there isn't. I imagine there are lots of lazy Windows
>> programmers who assume that pathnames always begin with C:, and get upset
>> if they have to run from anywhere else.
>
> Even old legacy DOS apps dont usually have a problem with being
> installed on D:, E: or where ever. Just a case of choosing a different
> drive/directory at install time usually.
Even that may not help, because the Dimdows Registry would still be kept on
the OS partition, and that is full of important user settings. So even
though you try separate things onto another partition, you will still
suffer major data and settings lossage if you have to wipe and reinstall
Dimdows.
>> Also in Linux all your normal applications run as a non-privileged user.
>> If you're logged in as username "fred", then the only place you can write
>> to is "/home/fred" (and subdirectories thereof), so the programs you run
>> have no choice about where they save their stuff.
Still seems like the Dimdows way of doing things is a poor substitute for
the Linux way.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Still, make regular backups and use these to repair next time...
>
> I'd even suggest a raided pair of disks if your motherboard has RAID
> capability.
RAID is not a substitute for backups.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
wrote:
> I always told customers who relied upon their computor systems to
> install RAID arrays
RAID is not a substitute for backups.
Smith
"SteveM" <sd...@ihugyou.co.nz> wrote in message
news:Xns998D600C8D8CAsd...@203.109.252.31...
> I used to work part time for Acer doing warranty repair work and I aways
> tried to get customer data off regardless of the official stance of Acer
> to just reimage machines when the OS was borked, or when the drive was
> failing and was replaced.
A most interesting story, thanks Steve. What I can't understand is why the
"official stance" of such computer companies doesn't include ensuring they
have written authority from their clients for the removal of their data.
Surely this isn't too much to ask and some retailers and repairers already
do this. After all, the data is legally the property of the computer owner.
Perhaps the circumstances decsribed in this thread would make a good "Fair
Go" TV story?
Smith
"thingy" <thi...@not.here.commy> wrote in message
> From experience I have found that most users dont want to pay so you waste
> time trying to contact them. Trying to get data off a buggered harddrive
> can run to 2~3+ hours of work, so $200~300 in labour....If you had clearly
> specified that data recovery was needed then yes you would have a good
> case....at least in so far as getting the job for free because they made a
> mess of it...
You wouldn't need to contact them if the repairer / retailer had a form that
the user had to sign which clearly gave the service people the authority to
delete data if they needed to.
> BUT again and this is un-escapable, if the data was valuable it should
> have been backed up, no ifs no buts IMHO. I am sorry but I have long given
> up sympathy for anyone who fails to back up their valuable data and relies
> on a single point of failure ie a hd with no redundancy...even my partner
> is too lazy and she lost her Mac hd 2 years ago and screamed murder....so
> should know better...
Although I have always meticulously backed up data day by day, I do have a
lot of sympathy for new computer users who haven't yet learned all the
"tricks of the trade". Let's look at this problem in another way. Say you
take in a pair of trousers to a drycleaner and later realise that you had a
valuable document or some cash in the pockets. Now how would you feel when
you get your trousers back to find that your valuable document and cash have
gone for good. So you complain and are told that trousers can't be
drycleaned with things in their pockets, so the drycleaners just toss out
without reference to the owners everything they find. The same sort of thing
happened to my friend's computer. Look, computer data is your legal
property, just as the cash and documents are in the drycleaning story. So
the drycleaning ticket probably says that the owner is liable for any damage
or loss that may happen while the trousers are in for cleaning. But if there
isn't a legal responsibility, surely there is a moral responsibility to do
the decent thing and contact people before you destroy their valuable
property!
Roger Dewhurst
"Enkidu" <enkid...@com.cliffp.com> wrote in message
news:46c16842$1...@news2.actrix.gen.nz...
> Daniel Parker wrote:
>>> "Smith" <Sm...@lostdata.org> wrote in message
>>> news:46c0f44b$1...@clear.net.nz...
>>
>> I'm not sure how much clearer we could be than getting the client to
>> agree to the statement above. Thoughts?
>>
> Add "We may scan your hard drive for porn". That should do it.
I took my computer in for repair and when it was returned I found some porn
in it that was not there when I took it in! Pictures of transexuals are not
my cup of tea. Surely a prudent person would keep any illegal material on
removeable disks.
R
Roger Dewhurst
"Jason Rumney" <jason...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1187084941....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Does re-intallation of Windows wipe the data?
R
>
Roger Dewhurst
"bustabraincell" <bustabr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1187086979.9...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Is a file recoverable if it has been deleted and the drive subsequently
defragmented?
R
>
Tony in Oz
"Roger Dewhurst" <dewh...@wave.co.nz> wrote in message
news:f9tmp1$h9p$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
install, which does not format the drive, but replaces missing or corrupt
Operating system files, or if its a "clean install" which means formatting
the drive (to a "clean" state) and doing a full install.
Cheers
Tony in Oz
>
> Is a file recoverable if it has been deleted and the drive subsequently
> defragmented?
>
> R
>>
>
>
Lets say you are working in your garden for a weekend, you got lots to
do, so you use the tools, one after the other, spades, forks, shears,
snippers, mowers, etc. when you are finished with each one, you throw it
back in the shed, just anywhere in the shed, and grab the next one. A few
weekends later, of the same activity, you look at your shed and Go, damn
this place is a mess. Its gonna take me ages to find that spade, because its
not where it belongs. So you tidy up the shed, and put everything back in
its rightful place, so you can find things quickly and easily.
This is what your computer does with your hard disk. Its working flat
out, so when its finished with a file or part of a file, it chucks it back
on the disk, but possibly not where it belongs. After a while, the disk is
very untidy, not much is where its meant to be, and we call that
'fragmented. When you "defragment" your drive, you are "cleaning out the
shed" and putting everything back where it belongs so the system can find it
again more quickly and easily. this is why defragmenting **can** speed up
your sytem. But only if a fragmented drive is why it slowed down.
It should, TMWOT, not make any difference whether a file is recoverable
or not, as a file becomes unrecoverable after the disc space it was living
on is overwritten. , rather than just moved. Of course it would be better
for file recovery to not use the drive at all, but remove it from the
computer, and mount it in a second machine as a slave to try and recover
anything off it.
SteveM
If the customer brought the machine into us directly our booking-in sheet
had the disclaimer regarding the backup of data etc, that others have
mentioned before, and they had to sign as being read etc, and it was
pointed out to them as well, so they did not have much to stand on.
However a lot of work came in through Noel lemons and tricky dickys etc
so we had no control over what was said to the customer. However these
retailers were /are well aware of this requirement and should advise the
customer in the same way....(Yeah right I hear you say......)
SteveM
Charlie G
<< snip>>
>
>
> While we dont usually just nuke data from the hard disk, if the machine
> is under warranty, and the failure is hard disk related, the drive is
> replaced and the client never gets to see it again, as we send it back
> to the manufacturer for a credit.
>
Hmmmm
My backups are usually current, so I'm not too worried about loosing
data, but having my data sent to other people firms, especially unknown
IT firms, many of whom are none to concerned with privacy is an issue.
So If my computer I purchased from you crashes while under warranty and
it is a hard disk fault, you'll replace the disk & send my old disk off
to someone else, with my data still intact...
Hope you don't have my bank, WINZ etc as your customers.
How do you cope with the Privacy Act implications. Do you tell people
you may well forward their information on to other people?
Tony in Oz
"Greg House" <gho...@yabadabado.cnn> wrote in message
news:4d35c35t7emfp4tli...@4ax.com...
>
> I wish people here read up on how to manage computers.
>
>
> You delete the Windows Directory and the Common Files one..
>
> A lot of the software I use can be run again as its not in the registry.
>
>
>
> Also XP allows to do a clean install over the Top Not a Repair one..
>
>
>
>
>
>
Again, your nit picking. I speak in general terms. You are jumping in
and putting your spoke in with technicalities. A clean install is just
that. A clean install. Wipes out all files and folders, and formats the
drive. You can do itt in XP without making the format a separate operation,
as it was with win 98. personally if it was my machine, and I ws going to
all that trouble, I'd just do the completer format and start from scratch,
its a good way of wiping out all the programs that you don't actually use,
specially if your a bit of a hoarder like me. then you can just reinstall
the ones you do use into a fresh system.
Charlie G
>
><<snip>>
> "tricks of the trade". Let's look at this problem in another way. Say
> you take in a pair of trousers to a drycleaner and later realise that
> you had a valuable document or some cash in the pockets. Now how would
> you feel when you get your trousers back to find that your valuable
> document and cash have gone for good. So you complain and are told that
> trousers can't be drycleaned with things in their pockets, so the
> drycleaners just toss out without reference to the owners everything
> they find. The same sort of thing happened to my friend's computer.
> Look, computer data is your legal property, just as the cash and
> documents are in the drycleaning story. So the drycleaning ticket
> probably says that the owner is liable for any damage or loss that may
> happen while the trousers are in for cleaning. But if there isn't a
> legal responsibility, surely there is a moral responsibility to do the
> decent thing and contact people before you destroy their valuable property!
>
In this case though the OP said the problem wasn't with the disk drive.
Surely a more appropriate analogy would be taking your car into have a
radiator fixed and on return finding they had thrown out your briefcase
full of papers from the boot.
Given the legal obligation is to do the job with reasonable care and
skill, the question must be, was it reasonable in the circumstances to
delete all the data in both partitions. without further warning. That
in turn would depend on what was wrong, what was needed to fix the
problem and what the customer was told would be done.
If the computer was not used for business purposes, the repair would
appear covered by the Consumer Guarantees Act, and so any disclaimers,
waivers etc may well not apply. I'm not sure I would like to argue the
repairers point of view in the Disputes Tribunal or Court.
Daniel Parker
Charlie G <bonn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> So If my computer I purchased from you crashes while under warranty and
> it is a hard disk fault, you'll replace the disk & send my old disk off
> to someone else, with my data still intact...
Correct. If we don't, we don't get paid by the manufacturer to do the
repair. At the end of the day, we need to get the machine repaired.
If the client *REALLY* wanted their drive back, we could do it as a non
warranty repair, and charge them for the replacement drive & labour.
In the past 15 Years, this has happened once, and probably been asked
about approx 20 times. Due to the costs involved, most people dont
bother once they fine out that the drives don't just get thrown out, and
we need to return them to get paid.
> Hope you don't have my bank, WINZ etc as your customers.
>
> How do you cope with the Privacy Act implications. Do you tell people
> you may well forward their information on to other people?
Its never come up. Ever. Once a drive leaves us, it heads back to the
manufacturer. With the volumes of drives they are dealing with, I doubt
anyone is ever going to take a look at the contents of the drive. While
I can only talk for my company, I think you will find that all 'Under
Warranty' drives follow the same process.
Daniel
Squiggle
> In message <46c1...@news01.wxnz.net>, Squiggle wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> One problem is with Windows there is a separate drive letter involved,
>>> with Linux there isn't. I imagine there are lots of lazy Windows
>>> programmers who assume that pathnames always begin with C:, and get upset
>>> if they have to run from anywhere else.
>> Even old legacy DOS apps dont usually have a problem with being
>> installed on D:, E: or where ever. Just a case of choosing a different
>> drive/directory at install time usually.
>
> Even that may not help, because the Dimdows Registry would still be kept on
> the OS partition, and that is full of important user settings. So even
> though you try separate things onto another partition, you will still
> suffer major data and settings lossage if you have to wipe and reinstall
> Dimdows.
>
Data loss? No, User data is not stored in the registry, same as user
data in linux is not stored in /etc.
Some settings may be lost but nothing that a little time won't remedy.
Losing the registry in windows is roughly equivalent to losing /etc &
/boot in linux. No user data should be lost, but still a bit of a pain
in the butt to reconfigure/reinstall everything.
El Chippy
Smith
In the case referred to in this thread, the retailer argues that, although
my friend may not have had any verbal advice from the sales person about how
important it is to back up data before a computer is left for repair, the
fine print on the receipt issued makes it clear that the end user is
responsible for backing up data and that the retailer will not be held
responsible if the repairer wipes all the data from the hard drive.
Similarly, a train ticket will probably have printed on it that the carrier
cannot be held responsible for any damages when people are injured if the
train crashes etc.
Now, in the case of a train ticket, I think the disclaimer on the ticket is
adequate, so travellers don't need to have this condition pointed out to
them personally every time they buy a train ticket. But, with a computer,
I'm quite sure there are many computer owners who are not aware that
repairers routinely wipe data off hard drives, even when the hard drives
themselves are not faulty. Therefore, I think that computer owners should be
asked to actually sign a piece of paper that says they have been made aware
that data may be lost when a computer is repaired and that they accept full
responsibility for backing up the data on the computer. In these
circumstances, I'm sure that quite a few computer users would take the
computer away and do a thorough job of backing up data before resubmitting
the computer for repair. I know that all computer owners should routinely do
this, but we have to take into account that not all users are as experienced
as most of the people who are discussing this issue in this newsgroup.
I think the written declaration approach is becoming even more important now
that most people own digital cameras and stand to lose all their valuable
pics if they have not been backed up. Digital movie cameras are now
available that record directly to memory sticks, so with such cameras, the
permanent record of movies is likely to be kept on the hard drive of a
computer. To many people, the loss of data from their computers can be a
most horrific experience, so I think repairers should have specific written
authority from users before they delete any data from their hard drives.
Smith
"Daniel Parker" <ju...@totallymac.com> wrote in message
news:junk-063805.1...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
The more I follow this discussion, the more I'm coming to the viewpoint
that, when possible, users might as well format their hard drives themselves
before they send in their computers for repairs. This would give them the
privacy they require and it also forces them to properly back up their data.
I think I'll follow this approach next time my computer needs repairs!
Jerry
Not likely, the defrag will probably write another file over it at one
time or another.
Jerry
>
> "David Empson" <dem...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote in message
> snip
>
>> If the drive has just been "formatted", the data could all be intact
>> (but not visible), as formatting typically only rewrites the directory
>> information (setting up a new empty directory). The data can be
>> recovered to varying degrees of success using software which can search
>> the drive for deleted files.
>>
>> If the data on the drive has been overwritten, e.g. by reinstalling
>> system software, then the recovery task is much harder. The files that
>> were not overwritten might be partly or completely recoverable using the
>> same tools as above.
>>
>> Anything which has been overwritten can only be recovered by dismantling
>> the hard drive and using an electron scanning microscope to measure the
>> slight magnetic residue of data which was overwritten. This is a very
>> expensive operation and may not be 100% successful. The more times the
>> data has been overwritten, the harder it will be to read it back again.
>
> Thanks a lot David for this interesting information. What puzzles me
> data. I can't understand why it was necessary to do this. I thought you
> could do a clean operating system reinstall by just working on the C
> partition of the hard drive. This makes me wonder whether a new hard
> drive was installed, but there would be no logical reason to do this,
> there was nothing wrong with the old hard drive.
What brand of computer is this? Some format everything in sight when
you do a format recovery. I've had an HP even format a second drive.
Now I always unplug a second drive and do the HP recovery. Visual are
the repair agents for HP/Compaq and NEC/Packard Bell and they usually
tell the customer if they are going to format the drive, and quote for a
recovery. Where I agree that data backup is a user responsibility, I
always tell a customer if I need to format.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> In message <46c1...@news01.wxnz.net>, Squiggle wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> One problem is with Windows there is a separate drive letter involved,
>>>> with Linux there isn't. I imagine there are lots of lazy Windows
>>>> programmers who assume that pathnames always begin with C:, and get
>>>> upset if they have to run from anywhere else.
>
>>> Even old legacy DOS apps dont usually have a problem with being
>>> installed on D:, E: or where ever. Just a case of choosing a different
>>> drive/directory at install time usually.
>>
>> Even that may not help, because the Dimdows Registry would still be kept
>> on the OS partition, and that is full of important user settings. So even
>> though you try separate things onto another partition, you will still
>> suffer major data and settings lossage if you have to wipe and reinstall
>> Dimdows.
>>
>
> Data loss? No, User data is not stored in the registry, same as user
> data in linux is not stored in /etc.
Windows applications can and will store data wherever they like. Since they
can write to the Registry, they will use it to store data.
In Linux, /etc is not user-writable, which prevents that kind of thing.
> Some settings may be lost but nothing that a little time won't remedy.
>
> Losing the registry in windows is roughly equivalent to losing /etc &
> /boot in linux. No user data should be lost, but still a bit of a pain
> in the butt to reconfigure/reinstall everything.
Except that you can back up /etc and selectively restore parts of it
afterwards. How do you restore selected Registry entries after a Windows
reinstallation?
Squiggle
> In message <46c2b30a$1...@news01.wxnz.net>, Squiggle wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> In message <46c1...@news01.wxnz.net>, Squiggle wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> One problem is with Windows there is a separate drive letter involved,
>>>>> with Linux there isn't. I imagine there are lots of lazy Windows
>>>>> programmers who assume that pathnames always begin with C:, and get
>>>>> upset if they have to run from anywhere else.
>>>> Even old legacy DOS apps dont usually have a problem with being
>>>> installed on D:, E: or where ever. Just a case of choosing a different
>>>> drive/directory at install time usually.
>>> Even that may not help, because the Dimdows Registry would still be kept
>>> on the OS partition, and that is full of important user settings. So even
>>> though you try separate things onto another partition, you will still
>>> suffer major data and settings lossage if you have to wipe and reinstall
>>> Dimdows.
>>>
>> Data loss? No, User data is not stored in the registry, same as user
>> data in linux is not stored in /etc.
>
> Windows applications can and will store data wherever they like. Since they
> can write to the Registry, they will use it to store data.
I'm yet to see a document, music file, email or any other user data in
the registry.
But i'm sure you can provide an example to back up your assertion.
>
>> Some settings may be lost but nothing that a little time won't remedy.
>>
>> Losing the registry in windows is roughly equivalent to losing /etc &
>> /boot in linux. No user data should be lost, but still a bit of a pain
>> in the butt to reconfigure/reinstall everything.
>
> Except that you can back up /etc and selectively restore parts of it
> afterwards. How do you restore selected Registry entries after a Windows
> reinstallation?
Open the .reg you exported as part of the backup procedure in any text
editor, cut'n'paste whichever keys you want into a new text file with a
.reg extension. right click on the new file, select merge.
Then again, why not just copy the whole system partition from your
backups and be done with it. Why reinstall fresh instead of restoring
from your backups? That is the point of backing up your OS isn't it, so
you dont have to do a time consuming application by application reinstall.
thingy
uh....the context is both sentences....I never suggested Raid only was....
It guards against a hd failure, but given that it appears that in this
case an OS re-install fixed it, Raid would not have helped as the
logical partition would have been corrupt...
If it was me and linux / OSX I'd write a script via cron to backup
automagically to a second HD or NFS mount rather than RAID
myself....which (NFS mount) when I can afford a 300gig HD is what I will
do for my partner's MAC.....maybe even a 400....
regards
Thing
Enkidu
the EULA. It almost qualifies him for nomination as a net kook.
Cheers,
Cliff
--
Have you ever noticed that if something is advertised as 'amusing' or
'hilarious', it usually isn't?
Tony in Oz
"Greg House" <gho...@yabadabado.cnn> wrote in > In my opinion most PC
repairers as just Cow Boy with no real technical backing with Bad hap[bits
> and no STANDARDS..
>
>
That would be the most arrogant statement I have read in some time on
this NG. Do you know/ Have you met most PC repairers in NZ have you? Qualify
your statement. Its a bit like saying "In my opinion most people called
Greg House are arrogant Tossers who haven't got a clue. " Grow up.
Bruce Sinclair
.. and particularly given that this is apparently the most common 'fix'
applied by the industry. Scary really :)
Tony in Oz
"Greg House" <gho...@yabadabado.cnn> wrote in message > I am a Fully Trained
Main Frame Computer Engineer and have worked with a Number of computer
> companies, so Little Boy I do know what I am on about..
>
> Been in the trade it would seem from your Juvenile comments, a lot longer
> than you.
>
> So little boy go play with you Kangaroos..
>
And you are probably about 12 years old. Or 45 years old and living at home
with Mummy. You obviously communicate with machines better than with humans.
Fuck off you Twat.
EMB
> companies, so Little Boy I do know what I am on about..
>
> Been in the trade it would seem from your Juvenile comments, a lot longer than you.
You are no longer in the mainframe trade Roger and haven't been for years.
Additionally it seems beyond your limited mental capacity to understand
that there is a significant differnce between vaping the customer data
off a mainframe (and probably bringing a sizeable organisation to it's
knees) and repairing a PC in a cost-effective manner (and losing a few
files of no significant monetary value belonging to one individual).
If data is of significant worth it should be backed up regularly - HDD
crashes are a fairly common occurrence with the same net outcome as a
reformat. In the absence of a backup regime any data loss really is the
responsibility of the client - as an ex-mainframe engineer you should be
fully aware of this.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Lawrence believes that taking a backup of your Windows system violates
> the EULA. It almost qualifies him for nomination as a net kook.
... if it wasn't for the fact that nobody has yet succeeded in proving me
wrong.
Nicolaas Hawkins
<news:46c3...@news01.wxnz.net>:
I was going to comment that being a fully trained steam traction engineer
does not automatically qualify one as an aviation mechanic.
--
Nicolaas.
... People don't care how much you know - until they know how much you
care.
Nicolaas Hawkins
<l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in
<news:fa0jlt$mli$2...@lust.ihug.co.nz>:
Why would anybody bother?
--
Nicolaas.
... Originality is the art of concealing your sources.
Warwick
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:36:50 GMT, "Tony in Oz" <m...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>
> I am a Fully Trained Main Frame Computer Engineer and have worked with a Number of computer
> companies, so Little Boy I do know what I am on about..
>
> Been in the trade it would seem from your Juvenile comments, a lot longer than you.
>
> So little boy go play with you Kangaroos..
And I thought you were the laughing stock of nz.comp. Aren't
you the one they call 'Woger' ?
--
cheers
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:29:02 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in
> <news:fa0jlt$mli$2...@lust.ihug.co.nz>:
>
>> In message <46c3...@news2.actrix.gen.nz>, Enkidu wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence believes that taking a backup of your Windows system violates
>>> the EULA. It almost qualifies him for nomination as a net kook.
>>
>> ... if it wasn't for the fact that nobody has yet succeeded in proving me
>> wrong.
>
> Why would anybody bother?
Because otherwise I get to continue to claim that I'm right.
Squiggle
You could claim the moon is made of blue cheese and the earth is falt if
you want, doesn't mean anyone in here is going to pay any heed to it.
And i'm still waiting for that example of a program that stores user
data in the registry.
El Chippy.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
A few minutes of Googling found this
<http://www.pcsupportadvisor.com/windows_registry_tutorial_page2.htm>:
The last of the first- level sub- keys in HKEY_ CURRENT_ USER is easily
the largest. It is named Software, and it is one of the two parts of the
registry specifically intended for use by applications (the other is
also named Software, and is in HKEY_ LOCAL_ MACHINE).
Immediately below HKEY_ CURRENT_ USER\ Software, there is a key for
each vendor which has applications installed on the computer. This in
turn contains a key for each of the vendor's installed applications and,
in some cases, a further sub- key for each installed version of the
application. Beyond that, the content of each key is for the vendor to
decide. Typically, they contain user preferences, histories and the
like.
As an example, my own registry includes a key named HKEY_ CURRENT_ USER\
Software\ JASC\ PaintShop Pro 5, which in turn contains 43 sub- keys. As
well as my preferences for PaintShop Pro, these store the position and
state of every toolbar and window, a recently- used file list, the
recent locations for opening and saving each of the file types, and
quite a lot more. This is an unusually large example most applications
don't store as much as this.
Although HKEY_ CURRENT_ USER\ Software is mainly intended for third-
party vendors, Microsoft also has a presence there. The key includes
sub-keys for each installed Microsoft application (for example, HKEY_
CURRENT_ USER\ Software\ Microsoft\ Office\ 8.0\ PowerPoint) and also
for Windows itself (HKEY_ CURRENT_ USER\ Software\ Microsoft\ Windows\
CurrentVersion) . The latter holds user- specific settings for the
Windows applets, Internet Explorer, Task Manager and other components.
In Windows NT, there are some additional first- level keys below HKEY_
CURRENT_ USER. They include Console (settings for the Command Prompt
window), Environment (environment variables read at logon) and Unicode
(references to applications that support Unicode).
As you can see, there's quite a lot of stuff there you can lose.
>>> Some settings may be lost but nothing that a little time won't remedy.
>>>
>>> Losing the registry in windows is roughly equivalent to losing /etc &
>>> /boot in linux. No user data should be lost, but still a bit of a pain
>>> in the butt to reconfigure/reinstall everything.
>>
>> Except that you can back up /etc and selectively restore parts of it
>> afterwards. How do you restore selected Registry entries after a Windows
>> reinstallation?
>
>
> Open the .reg you exported as part of the backup procedure in any text
> editor, cut'n'paste whichever keys you want into a new text file with a
> .reg extension. right click on the new file, select merge.
It's a bit more fiddly than that
<http://freepctech.com/pc/002/Windows_registry_faq.shtml>: you have to get
the key paths exactly right. It's all just more opportunities to screw
things up.
> Then again, why not just copy the whole system partition from your
> backups and be done with it. Why reinstall fresh instead of restoring
> from your backups? That is the point of backing up your OS isn't it, so
> you dont have to do a time consuming application by application reinstall.
1) This thread is precisely about what happens to user data if you have to
reinstall Windows for any reason, and
2) Backing up your Windows installation violates the XP Home EULA.