Lunix is not for home users...
Rider
"Greg Parker" <g...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:7nviqv8nt4ll74paa...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> Well as I said all along and this confirms it.
>
>
> " Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further
before
> home users will get a positive experience from the operating system,
saying
> they should choose Windows instead.
>
> Linux is seen by Microsoft as its most dangerous competitor for desktop
> operating systems, and after a number of high-profile cases where
government
> departments have switched from Windows to Linux-based systems, the OS has
been
> making some progress. However, Red Hat said that the hype around desktop
Linux
> is still mostly unfounded at the moment.
>
> Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday
that
> although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users,
home
> users should stick with Windows: "I would say that for the consumer market
> place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line," he said.
"I
> would argue that from the device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the
> other traditional functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it
is my
> view that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more."
>
>
>
> Full link
>
>
> http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5101690.html
>
>
>
I've always been of the opinion it isn't for home users. Unless the person
at home is pc savvy. But for the average home user, no good at all.
Knoppix User
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> I've always been of the opinion it isn't for home users. Unless the person
> at home is pc savvy. But for the average home user, no good at all.
>
>
But the average home user uses windows
So why all the concern ?
Yet another thread of Linux hating and Linux bashing.
Don't Bill Gates brown nose brigade have anything better to do ?
Rider
"Knoppix User" <kno...@not.here> wrote in message
news:FPfqb.5169$ws.4...@news02.tsnz.net...
I didnt say whether it was a good or bad system, just that it wasn't
suitable for the average home user. How is that 'bashing'?
It also makes a change from all the *nix people bashing other OS's LOL
Jerry
>
> I've always been of the opinion it isn't for home users. Unless the person
> at home is pc savvy. But for the average home user, no good at all.
When LM 8.1 came out I asked my (then) 11 year old daughter if she could
install it as second OS on my box.
She reckons it was a no-brainer, LM has been her OS of choice ever since.
:-)
Jerry
Rider
"Jerry" <nos...@thisbox.ta> wrote in message
news:%xhqb.9951$Mn.2...@news.xtra.co.nz...
Yes and what???
cowboyz
"techie" <no...@nospam321.invalid> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.11.06.01...@nospam321.invalid...
> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:50:22 -0600, Greg Parker wrote:
>
> >
> > Well as I said all along and this confirms it.
> >
> >
> > " Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further
> > before home users will get a positive experience from the operating
> > system, saying they should choose Windows instead.
>
> is ready, he didn't think a sufficient number of Linux applications
> would be finished-enough to make Linux ready for the consumer market for
> another two years. However there's a difference between not being ready
> for home users, and not being able to replace Windows for a great many
> home users if they happen to have a geek handy. For example, I've done
> quite a few installations of Linux and a small set of applications for
> people who just wanted a reliable, no-hassle machine for web browsing,
> email, and simple home-office chores, and have neither the need nor the
> desire to be installing new software toys and twiddling with the OS all
> the time. Such systems have proven to be significantly more reliable and
> much less hassle for both myself and the end-users than similar systems
> I've put together for people who wanted the same thing accomplished with
> Windows applications.
>
> Nontechnical home users will come last. Businesses are arriving before
> consumers because they have a narrower range of software needs, they
> have the money to fund development of high-office tools and the
> financial motivation to make that investment, they have their own
> tech-support staff so they can better live with software that needs a
> little technical expertise to install and maintain, and businesses who
> purchase large numbers of machines are in a far better position than
> individual consumers to persuade name-brand manufacturers to sell them
> Windows-less computers at a good price.
>
> Linux's entry into the home market will come when people start wanting
> to use the same software at home that they use at the office.
This is a far cry from what was being spouted 6 months ago where Linux was
taking over windows and Linux is the only OS you ever need and Linux can do
100x more than windows 1000x faster and.......................
I went there..... I'll never go back.....
AD.
> This is a far cry from what was being spouted 6 months ago where Linux was
> taking over windows and Linux is the only OS you ever need and Linux can
> do 100x more than windows 1000x faster and.......................
Not really, hardly anyone has changed what's being 'spouted'.
Linus is still saying the same thing,
Lennier is still saying the same thing,
Woger is still saying the same thing,
etc etc
You're just mixing up who said what :)
The only reason that RedHat has disparaged Linux for home users is that
they aren't trying to sell them anything anymore. It sounded like it was
aimed to hurt other distros, which wasn't that smart a move IMO.
Cheers
Anton
T.N.O.
> When LM 8.1 came out I asked my (then) 11 year old daughter if she could
> install it as second OS on my box.
> She reckons it was a no-brainer, LM has been her OS of choice ever since.
LM?
Linux Mandrake?
T.N.O.
> Yet another thread of Linux hating and Linux bashing.
Yet another Linux user who cant set his clock...
This thread isn't about Linux bashing, it is just general discussion.
harry
"T.N.O." <ne...@no.spiced.ham.here.please.dave.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3fa9ed77$1...@news.iconz.co.nz...
Its Roger Shephard flamebait, and you know it ;-)
harry
"cowboyz" <m...@here.now> wrote in message
news:bocj90$l40$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
cowboyz
>>
>>
>> This is a far cry from what was being spouted 6 months ago where
>> Linux was taking over windows and Linux is the only OS you ever need
>> and Linux can do 100x more than windows 1000x faster
>> and.......................
>>
>> I went there..... I'll never go back.....
>>
>>
>>
> But would you buy a TiVO ?
err -- probably not. why?
Warwick
mate, can you explain where you got your clock obsession from?
You are making a career out of checking the times on posts.
W
harry
"cowboyz" <m...@here.now> wrote in message
which is the next appliance boom to happen after the DVD player. TiVO is
built with Linux.
Linux isn't a substitute for Windows, as an office appliance desktop thingy,
but an increasing number of PVR and STB appliances, routers, access points
etc are using Linux as their operating systems.
I'm currently building a system based on mythtv on Linux on PXE players for
video. I'm quite happy to use Windows for what it does best, and acknowledge
what it does best, but I've got 6-8 PCs on my network at any one time, doing
what my hifi and ht stuff used to do, running a fax and print server. Most
of them would be a bit off the pace as state of the art gamers boxes, but
they are good for what they do. I use Debian for this stuff, and its like
having all the software for a huge number of projects on tap.
Windows has great fonts, its slick and shiny and easy, but it doesn't fill
all the niches.
The best of both worlds is a good way to go.
>
steve
>
> Well as I said all along and this confirms it.
>
>
> " Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further
> before home users will get a positive experience from the operating
> system, saying they should choose Windows instead.
<feed the troll>
Depends on the home user.
How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr if
required?
How many home users know how to install the WinXP patches BEFORE they
connect to the Internet?
There are many, many issues for Windows users that the "average home user"
hasn't got a blind clue about.
A person who wants Internet access and word processing and to listen to Cds
or watch DVDs will be just as happy on linux as they are on
Windows......and with a lot less hassle.
</feed the troll>
--
defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
your PC with some other operating system.
Chris Mayhew
news:63ujqv0e9qjd2d1ma...@4ax.com:
> mate, can you explain where you got your clock obsession from?
> You are making a career out of checking the times on posts.
>
> W
>
>
>
>
Apparently he was late home from the pub one day last week and his misses
threw his dinner in the rubbish bin and told him if he kept using his "my
watch must need new batteries honey" excuse she would refuse to cook at
all.
ChrisOD
<snip>
>>
>>
>
> But would you buy a TiVO ?
>
>
Think I'll stick with FreeVo
T.N.O.
> Its Roger Shephard flamebait, and you know it ;-)
Dear I say it, he's right.
T.N.O.
> mate, can you explain where you got your clock obsession from?
> You are making a career out of checking the times on posts.
Getting married soon... one of the few things I can have influence on :)
T.N.O.
> but I've got 6-8 PCs on my network at any one time, doing
> what my hifi and ht stuff used to do, running a fax and print server.
Is this economic? I mean 6-8 PC's or an actual sound system etc...
T.N.O.
> Apparently he was late home from the pub one day last week and his misses
> threw his dinner in the rubbish bin and told him if he kept using his "my
> watch must need new batteries honey" excuse she would refuse to cook at
> all.
nice, but I do all the cooking in our household... Im well trained
and better at it :)
harry
Yeah, quite a lot of it is free, courtesy of Windows users thar have no use
for a PC that doesn't run their latest toy games.
harry
"ChrisOD" <Dont.Send...@anywhere.at.all> wrote in message
news:3faa23c3$1...@news.orcon.net.nz...
They are both Linux
harry
"Chris Mayhew" <n...@e.male> wrote in message
news:Xns942BE5FA...@202.20.93.13...
"Dinners in the dog !" :o)
T.N.O.
>>>but I've got 6-8 PCs on my network at any one time, doing
>>>what my hifi and ht stuff used to do, running a fax and print server.
>>Is this economic? I mean 6-8 PC's or an actual sound system etc...
> Yeah, quite a lot of it is free, courtesy of Windows users thar have no use
> for a PC that doesn't run their latest toy games.
I see... but does it do it better than your sound system etc used to do?
T.N.O.
>>Apparently he was late home from the pub one day last week and his misses
>>threw his dinner in the rubbish bin and told him if he kept using his "my
>>watch must need new batteries honey" excuse she would refuse to cook at
>>all.
> "Dinners in the dog !" :o)
Two cats, but they don't eat real food, only those crappy little biscuits
harry
> harry wrote:
> > Its Roger Shephard flamebait, and you know it ;-)
>
> Dear I say it, he's right.
You don't even know me.
No wonder you have AI bots hitting on you !
Try "Dare"
Linux doesn't make a Windows desktop, buy a one of those if you want.
Linux doesn't make a Macintosh buy one of those if you want.
Windows doesn't make a Linux box, make one of those if you want.
Its so simple that you probably won't ever get it.
T.N.O.
> You don't even know me.
> No wonder you have AI bots hitting on you !
> Try "Dare"
heh, thanks :)
> Linux doesn't make a Windows desktop, buy a one of those if you want.
> Linux doesn't make a Macintosh buy one of those if you want.
> Windows doesn't make a Linux box, make one of those if you want.
> Its so simple that you probably won't ever get it.
nah, I get it, I just like to wind people up as and when they deserve
it... most in here are easily done.
Jerry
Why are you using my name?
Jerry :)
Craig Sutton
"Greg Parker" <g...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:7kujqvsa5ec8p78bu...@4ax.com...
>
Get lost yourself Nosey Parker
harry
It sounds really good and it can do things that regular hifi bits can't,
like stream different playlists to different places, and shuffle enormous
playlists by albums or songs, and play streams. I've got several laptops
that no one wants anymore because of their limited memory and small disks,
and they make the ultimate remote control. It all works together courtesy of
rdp rdesktop vnc samba ssh, some quality soundcards, some very average PCs.
Heres a good place to start
http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/products/story/0,24330,3528621,00.html
Kitchen PC is next.
Jerry
>
> Why are you using my name?
>
> Jerry :)
It´s who I am.
Jerry© ;-)
Max Burke
>> "T.N.O." <ne...@no.spiced.ham.here.please.dave.net.nz> wrote in message
>>> Knoppix User wrote:
>>> Yet another thread of Linux hating and Linux bashing.
>> Yet another Linux user who cant set his clock...
>> This thread isn't about Linux bashing, it is just general discussion.
> Its Roger Shephard flamebait, and you know it ;-)
So ignore the 'roger shepard' bit and concentrate on subject... ;-)
The future of open source......
By combining Linux with a GNOME or KDE interface and the open-source Mozilla
browser, there's room to compete with Microsoft by selling inexpensive
computers used only for basic tasks.
Redhat Chief Executive Matthew Szulik.........
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-938685.html
--
mlvburke@#%&*.net.nz
Replace the obvious with paradise to email me.
See Found Images at:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke/
Max Burke
>> Greg Parker allegedly said:
>> Well as I said all along and this confirms it.
>> " Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature
>> further before home users will get a positive experience from the
>> operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead.
> <feed the troll>
> Depends on the home user.
EXACTLY.....
What is the common denominator for the home user again????
> How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr if
> required?
How many *need to?*
OTOH
How many home users can install and setup Linux on a 'clean' HD..
> How many home users know how to install the WinXP patches BEFORE they
> connect to the Internet?
You actually NEED to connect to the internet to install them Steve; Once
connected the default is automatic download followed by an OS request to
install.
> There are many, many issues for Windows users that the "average home
> user" hasn't got a blind clue about.
OTOH.
There are many, many issues for ordinary computer users that make OSS/Linux
not suitable for the "average home user."
> A person who wants Internet access and word processing and to listen
> to Cds or watch DVDs will be just as happy on linux as they are on
> Windows......and with a lot less hassle.
ROTFLOL......
You're claiming ordinary home users cant handle the relative (as compared to
Linux) simplicity of Windows, but want us to believe they'll have no
problems at all with the complexity of installing, updating and maintaining
Linux?
The future of open source......
By combining Linux with a GNOME or KDE interface and the open-source Mozilla
browser, there's room to compete with Microsoft by selling inexpensive
computers used only for basic tasks.
Redhat Chief Executive Matthew Szulik.........
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-938685.html
I see Dick Smith have reduced to clear their low cost Linux powered
computers; It would seem that they didn't get the 'market support' so many
in this news group claimed they would get by having an alternative choice to
the defacto standard of Microsoft OS installed computers.
Allistar
> Greg Parker wrote:
>
>> Well as I said all along and this confirms it.
>>
>>
>> " Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further
>> before home users will get a positive experience from the operating
>> system, saying they should choose Windows instead.
>>
>
> ... but haven't they already done that?
> Don't home users already choose Windows instead?
"Choose" isn't the word i'd use. When was the last time you bought a PC and
had a choice in what operating system was installed (and I don't just mean
different flavours of Windows, I mean REAL choice)?
> Bye RedHat!
Allistar.
Allistar
> Knoppix User wrote:
>> Yet another thread of Linux hating and Linux bashing.
>
> Yet another Linux user who cant set his clock...
>
> This thread isn't about Linux bashing, it is just general discussion.
Just look at the thread subject and tell me it isn't Linux bashing.
Allistar.
harry
"Max Burke" <mlvburke@%$%#@.nz> wrote in message
news:U3zqb.5334$ws.5...@news02.tsnz.net...
> > harry scribbled:
>
> >> "T.N.O." <ne...@no.spiced.ham.here.please.dave.net.nz> wrote in message
>
> >>> Knoppix User wrote:
> >>> Yet another thread of Linux hating and Linux bashing.
>
> >> Yet another Linux user who cant set his clock...
> >> This thread isn't about Linux bashing, it is just general discussion.
>
> > Its Roger Shephard flamebait, and you know it ;-)
>
> So ignore the 'roger shepard' bit and concentrate on subject... ;-)
>
> The future of open source......
> By combining Linux with a GNOME or KDE interface and the open-source
Mozilla
> browser, there's room to compete with Microsoft by selling inexpensive
> computers used only for basic tasks.
> Redhat Chief Executive Matthew Szulik.........
> http://news.com.com/2100-1001-938685.html
>
Sure, Thats what computers running Microsoft are, " inexpensive computers
used for basic tasks"
Thats what the average home user does, thats why they are called "basic
tasks"
Jerry
it looks like one of us is talking to himself.
Jerry
Jerry
>
> LM?
>
> Linux Mandrake?
>
Yup
Jerry©
steve
>> steve scribbled:
>
>>> Greg Parker allegedly said:
>
>>> Well as I said all along and this confirms it.
>>> " Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature
>>> further before home users will get a positive experience from the
>>> operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead.
>
>> <feed the troll>
>> Depends on the home user.
>
> EXACTLY.....
> What is the common denominator for the home user again????
They're at home?
>> How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr if
>> required?
>
> How many *need to?*
They all need to sooner or later....though many limp along with broken
functionality becasue they don't even realise they need to.....
> OTOH
> How many home users can install and setup Linux on a 'clean' HD..
Or Windows........with the added hassle of product activation....and tough
luck if you want to switch machines.
Buy which ever one you want preloaded. Smaller PC vendors exist in the main
centres at least who will sell you a system with Linux preloaded.
>> How many home users know how to install the WinXP patches BEFORE they
>> connect to the Internet?
>
> You actually NEED to connect to the internet to install them Steve; Once
> connected the default is automatic download followed by an OS request to
> install.
I know. That's very problem I'm referring to. They need to connect to get
the patches to protect their systems from the worms that will likely infect
their system before that can downbload the patches.
How many know that?
>> There are many, many issues for Windows users that the "average home
>> user" hasn't got a blind clue about.
>
> OTOH.
> There are many, many issues for ordinary computer users that make
> OSS/Linux not suitable for the "average home user."
*sigh*....this is just the usual word-play from you...and meaning is
secondary, I guess.
...ANY issue you don't have a blind clue about potentially renders your
system inappropriate for the home user....if you come across it.
Once you come across it, whether it is Windows or Linux hardly matters.
We've been here before you and I. I do wish you could learn to be more
honest in discussing these things....
>> A person who wants Internet access and word processing and to listen
>> to Cds or watch DVDs will be just as happy on linux as they are on
>> Windows......and with a lot less hassle.
>
> ROTFLOL......
> You're claiming ordinary home users cant handle the relative (as compared
> to Linux) simplicity of Windows, but want us to believe they'll have no
> problems at all with the complexity of installing, updating and
> maintaining Linux?
You clearly know very little of modern Linux.
Do "up2date" or "apt-get" or "emerge <software name>" mean anything to you?
Perhaps it is time you had a refresher.
> The future of open source......
> By combining Linux with a GNOME or KDE interface and the open-source
> Mozilla browser, there's room to compete with Microsoft by selling
> inexpensive computers used only for basic tasks.
> Redhat Chief Executive Matthew Szulik.........
> http://news.com.com/2100-1001-938685.html
Szulik is wrong. I've used Linux daily for over 4 years now. It plays 9and
writes) my CDs, DVDs, displays TV, records programs, does whatever I need
it to do on the Internet. It even runs MS Office just fine if I want it
to....though I prefer to use Open Office.
> I see Dick Smith have reduced to clear their low cost Linux powered
> computers; It would seem that they didn't get the 'market support' so many
> in this news group claimed they would get by having an alternative choice
> to the defacto standard of Microsoft OS installed computers.
The guy who designed that line of products left the company and there was no
one to replace him.
The machines sold just fine.
Chris Wilkinson
Greg Parker wrote:
>
Who? Is this a real name?
> Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that
> although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home
> users should stick with Windows: "I would say that for the consumer market
> place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line," he said. "I
> would argue that from the device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the
> other traditional functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it is my
> view that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more."
Redhat are a business (no shit sherlock!), and this move by them is just a
focus on their corporate/enterprise business unit.
He appears to generalise a little in stating that Windows is 'right' for the
consumer desktop market. For sure some people would struggle with a linux
install, but many of them would also struggle with a Windows one. For him to
try lumping home users into one 'hat' just tells me that no longer does he
wish to provide core resources to the desktop market, since that one is not
profitable. Thats fine, there are plenty of other linux distros that supply
a consumer friendly (read free) version. Device driver support is improving,
and the software provided to consumers improves rapidly. I think his statement
that 2 years will see the ease-of-use of Linux approach or equal that of Windows
to be a valid one. As to replacing Windows on the average consumer desktop, that
would be a bit pie-in-the-sky to predict upon, but I think as Linux continues
to make inroads in that arena look to radical changes at Microsoft that reflect
that linux will become a true competitor at home as well...
Kind regards,
Chris Wilkinson, Christchurch.
harry
"Chris Wilkinson" <mrbl...@snap.net.nz> wrote in message
news:10681711...@kyle.snap.net.nz...
Its worth reading the original Register article
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/33766.html
"The natural, cheap-shot 'have you stopped beating your wife yet' question
for Szulik was: 'You're saying all these people who go down to the store
looking for an alternative should buy Windows?' So we asked it, largely for
the personal entertainment value of watching him desperately swimming for
the shore. We certainly didn't intend to use it to construct an entirely
unfair hit-magnet Linux-screamer story. Some people, however, are not so
particular. Plus they steal other people's questions - watch it, kid."
This is Red Hats point of view, its an admission that they are best leaving
consumers to downstream products like Lycoris Xandros and Lindows who are
repackaging mainstream distros.
Keeping track of camcorders, mp3 portables cameras and the like is a
different business. Microsoft has entirely different divisions handling home
and enterprise product lines too.
Apple is having the most success with the digital hub for your home consumer
approach, and hot on the heels of iPOD, and iTunes I've just recently
spotted HomePOD
http://www.gloolabs.com/customer.php
Nice !
Max Burke
>> Max Burke allegedly said:
>>> steve scribbled:
>>>> Greg Parker allegedly said:
>>>> Well as I said all along and this confirms it.
>>>> " Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature
>>>> further before home users will get a positive experience from the
>>>> operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead.
> Depends on the home user.
>> EXACTLY.....
>> What is the common denominator for the home user again????
> They're at home?
Using a computer with *Windows installed*
>>> How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr
>>> if required?
>> How many *need to?*
> They all need to sooner or later....
No they dont.
> though many limp along with broken
> functionality becasue they don't even realise they need to.....
Such as?
>> OTOH
>> How many home users can install and setup Linux on a 'clean' HD..
> Or Windows........
It's real easy to install Windows, you apparently being the exception.....
> with the added hassle of product activation....
There's nothing wrong with product activation either as a concept to protect
Microsoft's products and IP or as part of the install process for the end
user.....
> and
> tough luck if you want to switch machines.
Retail versions can be switched to another machine; You cant install on more
than one computer at a time.
OEM versions are for the computer the OEM installs it on only.
Why do YOU have a problem with that Steve?
> Buy which ever one you want preloaded. Smaller PC vendors exist in
> the main centres at least who will sell you a system with Linux
> preloaded.
Of course they do......
> How many home users know how to install the WinXP patches BEFORE
> they connect to the Internet?
>> You actually NEED to connect to the internet to install them Steve;
>> Once connected the default is automatic download followed by an OS
>> request to install.
> I know. That's very problem I'm referring to.
It's not a problem Steve.
> They need to connect to
> get the patches to protect their systems from the worms that will
> likely infect their system before that can downbload the patches.
No they wont; Firewall and antivirus software installed before going on
line.... What a *concept*
> How many know that?
Not enough......
> There are many, many issues for Windows users that the "average home
> user" hasn't got a blind clue about.
>> OTOH.
>> There are many, many issues for ordinary computer users that make
>> OSS/Linux not suitable for the "average home user."
> *sigh*....this is just the usual word-play from you...and meaning is
> secondary, I guess.
Just copying your 'word play' Steve. Are you saying I cant copy your lead
here?
> ...ANY issue you don't have a blind clue about potentially renders
> your system inappropriate for the home user....if you come across it.
For ANY OS. Windows, Linux, etc, etc, etc.......
> Once you come across it, whether it is Windows or Linux hardly
> matters.
EXACTLY. Perhaps you'll now explain why you are so obsessed about
Microsoft and so defensive about OSS/Linux when it's pointed out it's no
different from Windows in this 'situation'.......
Then again, dont bother, I've heard it all before......
> We've been here before you and I. I do wish you could learn to be more
> honest in discussing these things....
After you Steve......
> A person who wants Internet access and word processing and to listen
> to Cds or watch DVDs will be just as happy on linux as they are on
> Windows......and with a lot less hassle.
>> ROTFLOL......
>> You're claiming ordinary home users cant handle the relative (as
>> compared to Linux) simplicity of Windows, but want us to believe
>> they'll have no problems at all with the complexity of installing,
>> updating and maintaining Linux?
> You clearly know very little of modern Linux.
I clearly know it's not a simple as you're claiming it is....
> Do "up2date" or "apt-get" or "emerge <software name>" mean anything
> to you?
Yes. It's what Linux users have to do to when they *go online* to get their
OS patched.....
It's the Linux equivalent of a Windows user going online and getting the
latest updates, with the notable difference that the Windows user doesn't
have to manually type in the request to update and patch.....
In this age of high powered, multimedia enabled GUI computer operating
systems, it's amazing that some still insist the command line, and editing
configuration files, is the better option to install, run, and update an
operating system, and is a preferred requirement when using a computer....
> Perhaps it is time you had a refresher.
Perhaps it's time you stopped being so obsessive about anything and
everything that interests you.....
>> The future of open source......
>> By combining Linux with a GNOME or KDE interface and the open-source
>> Mozilla browser, there's room to compete with Microsoft by selling
>> inexpensive computers used only for basic tasks.
>> Redhat Chief Executive Matthew Szulik.........
>> http://news.com.com/2100-1001-938685.html
> Szulik is wrong. I've used Linux daily for over 4 years now. It plays
> 9and writes) my CDs, DVDs, displays TV, records programs, does
> whatever I need it to do on the Internet. It even runs MS Office just
> fine if I want it to....though I prefer to use Open Office.
As far as his vision of the future of Linux is concerned, maybe.... But he
is the CEO of Redhat Steve. He does have an influence on the future of
Linux, and he's now saying it's NOT for home users.
>> I see Dick Smith have reduced to clear their low cost Linux powered
>> computers; It would seem that they didn't get the 'market support'
>> so many in this news group claimed they would get by having an
>> alternative choice to the defacto standard of Microsoft OS installed
>> computers.
> The guy who designed that line of products left the company and there
> was no one to replace him.
You're kidding right? RIGHT.
If these Linux based computers had been profitable then Dick Smith would
still be listing them as a *profitable* product line.
They tested the market for an alternative to selling Microsoft based
computers and found that the market doesn't exist. They didn't get the
customer support that so many in this newsgroup claimed they would, and
decided to discontinue selling them.
As to you claiming that there was only one person in the company that knew
anything about Linux........ ;-)
> The machines sold just fine.
They didn't very many [any?] of them even with them being cheap......
That's why they're now a 'to clear' item....
Grandiose claims about open source/Linux that don't match reality do no
service to Linux, free software, or anyone in search of truth.
ZDnet.com
Fran
> I see Dick Smith have reduced to clear their low cost Linux powered
> computers; It would seem that they didn't get the 'market support' so many
> in this news group claimed they would get by having an alternative choice
> to the defacto standard of Microsoft OS installed computers.
>
I had a client get one of those Terminator units and before I could get
around and install Win98 their 11 year old daughter had it set up for
internet and e-mail with the preinstalled linux.
Damn kids :)
Fran
:):):)
Fran
> I'm quite happy to use Windows for what it does best, and
> acknowledge what it does best, but I've got 6-8 PCs on my network at any
> one time, doing what my hifi and ht stuff used to do, running a fax and
> print server.
Wow, I wish my hifi did that :)
Fran
:):):)
Fran
>
> It's real easy to install Windows, you apparently being the exception.....
>
>> with the added hassle of product activation....
>
> There's nothing wrong with product activation either as a concept to
> protect Microsoft's products and IP or as part of the install process for
> the end user.....
>
Product Activation is fine - for the home user who does it once and then
never sees it again.
For people who see it regularly it gets a bit.... tedious.
Fran
:):):)
steve
Same with my 10 year old.
She especially likes "Tux Racer".
She had WinSE on her PC, but when she saw all the games included on Linux,
she asked me to install it. I set it up so she could dual boot....because I
know she also likes to play "Croc". :-)
steve
>> steve scribbled:
>
>>> Max Burke allegedly said:
>
>>>> steve scribbled:
>
>>>>> Greg Parker allegedly said:
>>>>> Well as I said all along and this confirms it.
>>>>> " Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature
>>>>> further before home users will get a positive experience from the
>>>>> operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead.
>
>> Depends on the home user.
>
>>> EXACTLY.....
>>> What is the common denominator for the home user again????
>
>> They're at home?
>
> Using a computer with *Windows installed*
Or Mac OS or Linux....sorry to disturb your mono-culture prejudices.
>>>> How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr
>>>> if required?
>
>>> How many *need to?*
>
>> They all need to sooner or later....
>
> No they dont.
I spend enough time supporting my neighbours to know you're engaging in your
usual arrogance - denying my experience in favour of your unsupportable
assertions....like all home users use Windows and people who use Windows
will never need to use regedit.....despite every neighbour within 100
metres of here having to do exactly that within the past 12 months at some
point.
But you deny every experience I have.....in favour of your own prejudices.
I'll leave you here. You're a waste of time as usual.
cowboyz
>>>>> How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr
>>>>> if required?
>>
>>>> How many *need to?*
>>
>>> They all need to sooner or later....
>>
>> No they dont.
>
> I spend enough time supporting my neighbours to know you're engaging
> in your usual arrogance - denying my experience in favour of your
> unsupportable assertions....like all home users use Windows and
> people who use Windows will never need to use regedit.....despite
> every neighbour within 100 metres of here having to do exactly that
> within the past 12 months at some point.
>
> But you deny every experience I have.....in favour of your own
> prejudices.
>
> I'll leave you here. You're a waste of time as usual.
I'll join for fun, I have been using windows since win95 the only reason
I have used regedit is to make a reghack for various projects. Why are your
average users using regedit again?
Enkidu
probably because they caught a virus.
Cheers,
Cliff
--
The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
that the conspiracy is working.
Max Burke
Why? It takes about five minutes to activate over the 'net......
Max Burke
>> Max Burke allegedly said:
> Depends on the home user.
>>>> EXACTLY.....
>>>> What is the common denominator for the home user again????
> They're at home?
>> Using a computer with *Windows installed*
> Or Mac OS
> or Linux....
3 - 5%.....
> sorry to disturb your mono-culture prejudices.
If I was as obsessive as you Steve, then you'd have a point. I'm not. You
dont.
> How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr
> if required?
>>>> How many *need to?*
> They all need to sooner or later....
>> No they dont.
> I spend enough time supporting my neighbours to know you're engaging
> in your usual arrogance
No, I'm just pointing out that your 'anecdotal' claims are not the norm;
they're more the obsessive rantings of a 'so called' OSS/Linux advocate.
> - denying my experience in favour of your
> unsupportable assertions....
Well gee, when my anecdotal experience is mostly the opposite of yours WRT
what windows users do with their computers who is right? You? Or me?
Or is it that it's not a case of right or wrong, but rather a case of you
insisting that anything outside of your anti Microsoft obsessions just cant
be true because it's not what you want to believe?
> like all home users use Windows and
> people who use Windows will never need to use regedit.....
Who said *never* Steve. YOU did.
> despite
> every neighbour within 100 metres of here having to do exactly that
> within the past 12 months at some point.
See above WRT to your anecdotal claims being the norm for you and your
beliefs.
> But you deny every experience I have.....
If YOU say so Steve. I have no doubt when you 'maintain, your 'neighbours'
computers you deliberately hack the registry to fix what YOU think needs
fixing......
> in favour of your own
> prejudices.
I dont think that way Steve. That's how *YOU* think.
They're computer OS'es Steve. Software. Computer code. That's ALL
Why you have to use words like prejudices in relation to computer code
shows me that YOU think like that far more than I ever do or could....
The majority in this forum is pretty much agreed that you have a significant
'problem' with reality when it comes to things like computers, the OS'es
that run on them, and how they're used by users....
> I'll leave you here. You're a waste of time as usual.
IOW you've been called again on you obsessiveness and dont like it......
;-)
Anyone who tells you, or tries to convince you that their favourite
operating
system is somehow immune to market forces, human error, and plain malice, is
doing both you and the operating system they espouse a disservice.
http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20030124S0013/5
pete
> On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 17:40:27 +1300, Fran <sp...@mobilecomputing.co.nz>
wrote:
Nothing to do with the operaing system - merely an incompetent repair shop
RecylerMan
I have been using linux since 1998 that is 4 years my first install
slackware 4 worked but I had no clue on how to use it :( about a week
later I had xwindow working I have been toying with it since then probly
done the most tinkering with Slackware used the Mandrake the most I
installed REDHAT9 three monts ago that is NOT ment for home uce the
install took twice as long as a mandrake install had problems with the
bootloder would not boot did the RTFM and found out they were using OLD
conventions for booting <grrr> fixed with in 30 mins just getting
arround redhat at the moment mite do a cleen install of it again bare
minimum so I can build in it what I want or might do the same with
mandrake or maby slackware... my server firewall is another story it was
up for over one year before hardware fault killed it bad hard drive
sector (old 3.5 GIG HD) with Knoppix recoverd 99% of the data I wanted
to keep the 1% was on one of my backups it the new server has been
running sweet as 56 days and counting the server is running a red hat
varient called e-smith I just wish I had a gruntier cpu and more ram for
it or could splash out and buy a old PII or PIII system. as 64meg ram
and a P166 is just only fase enough for what I am doing it was once a
P90 and then a p133
any one got a intell pentium 200 the one before MMX?
--
RecylerMan ICQ 22245595
Mail to :- l i n u x u s r AT i h u g DOT c o DOT n z
The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse always gets the cheese
cowboyz
You need to edit the registry if you get a virus?
Jerry
How else are you going to remove the entry the virus puts in the
registry? You often do need to edit the registry for a virus.
Jerry
cowboyz
run a virus killer that will delete the entries for you. You do not have to
use regedit at all.
My god... do I sound like Woger? Look what your doin too me.....
harry
"pete" <fif...@hot-shot.com> wrote in message
news:5SKqb.5493$ws.5...@news02.tsnz.net...
> > My Boss brought one it went belly up yesterday, 2 weeks for a repair..
>
> Nothing to do with the operaing system - merely an incompetent repair shop
>
The DSE Terminator is an ASUS Terminator barebones product.
http://www.asus.com.tw/desktop/termk7/overview.htm
Enkidu
Some of the removal procedures specify that you remove stuff from the
registry which restarts the thing every time. Then reboot and run the
removal tool. Generally the older virus fixes would recommend this.
The point was that the virus stopped the removal process from running.
harry
An ASUS computer, sold by DSE
Jerry
Woger Junior? Hey, you can't blame me for that....
Jerry (the real Jerry)
Disco Stu
> Rider wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I've always been of the opinion it isn't for home users. Unless the
>> person
>> at home is pc savvy. But for the average home user, no good at all.
>>
>>
>
> But the average home user uses windows
> So why all the concern ?
> Yet another thread of Linux hating and Linux bashing.
>
Gotta say, I was very impressed with Lindows.
It asked me NO questions during the demo install and configured
EVERYTHING including my Winmodem. It also automaticly detected and
installed the drivers for the couple of USB devices I attached.
If Linlows was free, I'll be running it on my laptop right now.
Jerry
<g...@nospam.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 13:26:37 +1300, Jerry <sto...@paradise.nospam.net.nz>
>I thought that was a Cat..?
The cat is Tom
the real Jerry
pete
"RecylerMan" <l_i_n_u_...@ihug.c0.nz> wrote in message
news:bogp0v$omc$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Yeah, me. Its running Mitel SME for my home lan.
pete
"harry" <x...@xx.xx> wrote in message
news:RxWqb.5585$ws.5...@news02.tsnz.net...
regardless of who its made by, the operating system is not the reason it
takes two weeks to repair hardware
>
>
pete
"Disco Stu" <stu@springfield_dance_studio.com> wrote in message
news:10682543...@morannon.wetafx.co.nz...
You'd pay for MS Windows, but not for Lindows? Why is that?
cowboyz
"Jerry" <sto...@paradise.nospam.net.nz> wrote in message
news:a0eoqvgpip7cuofer...@4ax.com...
Great... something to aspire to... Hmmm. can you aspire downwards?
Gordon
> Gotta say, I was very impressed with Lindows.
>
> It asked me NO questions during the demo install and configured
> EVERYTHING including my Winmodem. It also automaticly detected and
> installed the drivers for the couple of USB devices I attached.
>
> If Linlows was free, I'll be running it on my laptop right now.
So what are you running on your laptop? Does it have a price attached?
The Penguin is happy with people requiring a cost for the use of software,
many people still miss the irony of this. ;-)
geoffm
wrote:
>Why? It takes about five minutes to activate over the 'net......
anyway, there are a squillion cracks for it if you want to avoid the
hassle...
Geoff
T.N.O.
>>This thread isn't about Linux bashing, it is just general discussion.
> Just look at the thread subject and tell me it isn't Linux bashing.
The subject line is the general ideas from the original link posted...
which can also be described as the "subject", wow, hard isn't it.
T.N.O.
>>LM?
>>Linux Mandrake?
> Yup
Isn't it Mandrake Linux? either way, doesnt matter.
T.N.O.
>>>How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr if
>>>required?
>>How many *need to?*
> They all need to sooner or later....though many limp along with broken
> functionality becasue they don't even realise they need to.....
And using Linux will suddenly educate them to a level where they are
happy editing config files? Doubt it.
>>You actually NEED to connect to the internet to install them Steve; Once
>>connected the default is automatic download followed by an OS request to
>>install.
> I know. That's very problem I'm referring to. They need to connect to get
> the patches to protect their systems from the worms that will likely infect
> their system before that can downbload the patches.
> How many know that?
Same problem with any Linux distro. Both have updates, both updates
*can* be downloaded beforehand.
> We've been here before you and I. I do wish you could learn to be more
> honest in discussing these things....
I can be honest about these things, both have advantages and
dis-advantages... when Linux has more adv, and less dis-adv than
windows, I'll switch, at the moment, it doesn't(note that this is for
me, not speaking for anyone else.)
> You clearly know very little of modern Linux.
> Do "up2date" or "apt-get" or "emerge <software name>" mean anything to you?
To me they mean the way to keep a linux box up to date, but so does
windowsupdate.com there is just a small matter of getting un-educated
users to use them.
> The machines sold just fine.
Really, the dunedin office said they sold 5... and they were on the
shelf for a long time.
T.N.O.
> She had WinSE on her PC,
Windows Second Edition? Windows 2? :)
T.N.O.
>>I'll join for fun, I have been using windows since win95 the only reason
>>I have used regedit is to make a reghack for various projects. Why are your
>>average users using regedit again?
> probably because they caught a virus.
IME, Home users don't fix their own virus infections, they get a shop or
geek friend to do it.
Why would they(shop or Geek friend) need to go into the registry for a
virus? download the util to get rid of it.
T.N.O.
> Why? It takes about five minutes to activate over the 'net......
I think 5 is an overstatement, it took me about 2, including the dialup
time.
Chris Wilkinson
Max Burke wrote:
>>steve scribbled:
>
>>Do "up2date" or "apt-get" or "emerge <software name>" mean anything
>>to you?
>
>
> Yes. It's what Linux users have to do to when they *go online* to get their
> OS patched.....
Some linux users choose to patch their system almost daily. Others like me
simply use the OS as a launchpad for the apps we use. In the latter case I
have found no need to patch a single thing on my Mandrake system since it
was installed. Those users on Windows systems who haven't at a minimum
installed a security patch, will run the risk of virii/worms/trojans etc...
> In this age of high powered, multimedia enabled GUI computer operating
> systems, it's amazing that some still insist the command line, and editing
> configuration files, is the better option to install, run, and update an
> operating system, and is a preferred requirement when using a computer....
Tinkering helps you understand the thing better, but it isn't 'necessary'
unless you are compiling hours-old CVS code. I'm happy to wait a few days
or weeks for a binary RPM to be made, and then download/install in one
hit with GUI based tools under Mandrake...
> As far as his vision of the future of Linux is concerned, maybe.... But he
> is the CEO of Redhat Steve. He does have an influence on the future of
> Linux, and he's now saying it's NOT for home users.
So we should all remove our Mandrake, Lycoris, Lindows, SuSe, and other
home oriented distros and install WindowsXP as soon as possible? I find
what he says is far too black and white. Home users who are a wee bit
computer savvy will have few troubles with Mandrake or any other distro,
with the improved installers and package management these systems now
carry...
>>The guy who designed that line of products left the company and there
>>was no one to replace him.
I'd like to see evidence of this....
> You're kidding right? RIGHT.
The guy who 'designed' those products did not do his homework. I own
a DSE Terminator Linux system, but if it wasn't for the fact I'm already
relatively computer savvy I'd have steered clear of it based on how little
the DSE staff knew about it...
Its now upgraded with a mid-range nVidia card, more RAM, and I've installed
software that allows DRM-free Windows Media 9 playback and Quicktime 6
en/de-coding. A video sampling card would make this a kick-ass digital
video workstation using free software I can download with a few clicks
of the mouse...
> If these Linux based computers had been profitable then Dick Smith would
> still be listing them as a *profitable* product line.
The problem I saw was volume. $1100 I payed for a system with 19" screen,
which would be a quite slim margin. They'd need to shift many to make a
decent dollar. Good on them for trying though...
As the Redhat CEO says, the Linux desktop is still maturing. Within a few
years I think his prediction will hold true, since ease-of-use is already
approaching Windows standard on day-to-day stuff with distros like Lindows...
harry
> steve wrote:
>>>>How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr if
>>>>required?
>
>>>How many *need to?*
>
>> They all need to sooner or later....though many limp along with broken
>> functionality becasue they don't even realise they need to.....
>
> And using Linux will suddenly educate them to a level where they are
> happy editing config files? Doubt it.
How a consumer Linux distribution is implemented affects whether they would
have to edit config files.
For the average user of Lindows/Lycoris/Xandros there is no need.
I have just installed Knoppix using the knoppix-installer scripts "install
like knoppix" option. I can take that HD and stick it in another PC and it
autoconfigures and sets up just like the CD version.
I can't see any reason to go into /etc
OTOH people who routinely remote administer servers don't bother with the
GUI tools.
This inspires Linux bashers to claim that Linux needs knowledge of command
line stuff and heavy editing.
If you want to do something only slightly off the Windows path, like dual
boot 98SE and XP for some games compatability, you will also find yourself
opening a command console for bootcfg, its there because its useful, not to
be a pain in the arse so you can denigrate its use in another system and
context.
>>>You actually NEED to connect to the internet to install them Steve; Once
>>>connected the default is automatic download followed by an OS request to
>>>install.
>
>> I know. That's very problem I'm referring to. They need to connect to get
>> the patches to protect their systems from the worms that will likely
>> infect their system before that can downbload the patches.
>> How many know that?
>
> Same problem with any Linux distro. Both have updates, both updates
> *can* be downloaded beforehand.
>
>> We've been here before you and I. I do wish you could learn to be more
>> honest in discussing these things....
>
> I can be honest about these things, both have advantages and
> dis-advantages... when Linux has more adv, and less dis-adv than
> windows, I'll switch, at the moment, it doesn't(note that this is for
> me, not speaking for anyone else.)
That will never happen, because your yardstick is Windows
Users with only one Windows home PC for peer to peer piracy of Windows
software and playing their latest Windows games are never likely to see any
advantages. Thats called "lock-in"
But if they use a router from someone like linksys or buy a TiVo PVR, they
are using the same linux kernel and open source software that you can use
to implement those devices from generic x86 hardware.
The hardware is cheap, but Windows isn't a great option, unless you have
free access to Corporate Edition or loadsamoney.
>
>> You clearly know very little of modern Linux.
>> Do "up2date" or "apt-get" or "emerge <software name>" mean anything to
>> you?
>
> To me they mean the way to keep a linux box up to date, but so does
> windowsupdate.com there is just a small matter of getting un-educated
> users to use them.
They are far more comprehensive than windowsupdate, they allow you to
install and maintain a current version of every application in the
distribution
>
>> The machines sold just fine.
>
> Really, the dunedin office said they sold 5... and they were on the
> shelf for a long time.
And those probably ended up with pirated Windows on them.
If I was buying an off the shelf ready to use PC, it would be a Dell laptop
or an Apple one, its easy, you open the box, throw out the gherkin and
eat. :-)
harry
En francais "Linux Mandrake", "Linux Chapeau Rouge" etc
;-)
Its a Big World.
Cheetah
> How many *need to?*
> OTOH
> How many home users can install and setup Linux on a 'clean' HD..
First of all, a Home User need not go through an install process at all. How
many users install Windows XP? Hardly any because it comes preinstalled
with their PC.
However, mt experience of Linux installs of Red Hat and Mandrake have been
better than Windows. The first time I tried to install Windows XP on a
machine the install 'blue screened' - actually it just reset, as MS changed
the behavior from BSOD to automatic reset.
> OTOH.
> There are many, many issues for ordinary computer users that make
> OSS/Linux not suitable for the "average home user."
There are a few. I think that most games are specifically for Windows.
Childrens educational software is almost exclusivly Windows based. There
are also issues around the vast array of devices that the consumer market
supports. In this sense Red Hat were right - as a consumer OS Linux doesn't
have the same polish. It is also deficient in some application areas.
> You're claiming ordinary home users cant handle the relative (as compared
> to Linux) simplicity of Windows, but want us to believe they'll have no
> problems at all with the complexity of installing, updating and
> maintaining Linux?
The thing is that keeping Linux up to date isn't difficult anymore. Windows
has a update facility for its core systems - things supplied with the OS.
Linux has a package management system which can keep everything installed
up to date at the click of a button.
> The future of open source......
> By combining Linux with a GNOME or KDE interface and the open-source
> Mozilla browser, there's room to compete with Microsoft by selling
> inexpensive computers used only for basic tasks.
> Redhat Chief Executive Matthew Szulik.........
> http://news.com.com/2100-1001-938685.html
While I appreciate that there is some truth to this I think it hides the
strengths of desktop Linux. I believe the problem for Red Hat was that
Destop Linux doesn't earn them money - and that the consumer market is much
tougher than the business market in terms of the flexibility that has to be
offered.
Linux is doing well in areas such as thin client computing, which can be put
to use in schools and business. It doesn't mean you can just chuck out the
Windows boxes and install Linux - Linux isn't a drop in Windows
replacement. However, with good management of the migration process a
business can reap the benefits of a infrastructure that won't ever be tied
to a single vendor again.
> I see Dick Smith have reduced to clear their low cost Linux powered
> computers; It would seem that they didn't get the 'market support' so many
> in this news group claimed they would get by having an alternative choice
> to the defacto standard of Microsoft OS installed computers.
Being somewhat involved with that I'm somewhat dissapointed - but not
unexpectedly so. The NZOSS strategy had deliberatly avoided the consumer
market. I don't mean desktops - as I said Linux is working well for many
organisations. The issues are not just technology related - its more to do
with peoples expectations - what they are used to.
Linux looks like Windows not because Windows is so amazing, but because
Windows is what people know.
However, saying the "Desktop" is not ready just isn't true. I have been
using a Linux desktop since - well about two years now. I also use XP - and
to be honest I don't find there is any difference in terms of using them.
I do admit to being frustrated when trying to do basic stuff on XP and
having to download the tools, when they come standard with Linux.
Regards,
Peter
Cheetah
> My Boss brought one it went belly up yesterday, 2 weeks for a repair..
This is what I feared. The problem is that they were aiming for these
machines to be cheap. Not only did that mean using a 'free as in beer' OS,
but also using comparitivly cheap machines. They were 1100 Mhz machines -
much lower than the comparible machines in store from other vendors.
The problem as I saw it was that Linux would be associated with cheap,
unreliable computers - and I think this is a case in point.
The problem was an issue with a quality of the computers. I'm not saying
that heaps are breaking down - I have had mine running a server for almost
a year non-stop. The thing is that the *look* cheap, and use the cheapest
components.
Now if what you want is a cheap PC thats okay - but most people given the
choice will opt to spend a little more and get a 'good' machine.
harry
So you don't think they should be able to.
Why not encourage people to be motivated and enterprising.
All you are suggesting is that they take their PC out of use, and take it to
someone who looks up the virus definition on the web and followed the step
by step instructions then invoices you or drinks all your beer (or Red
Bull) !
Its there to be used, just like the far more easily readable and commented
text files which fulfil the same function, (but never get changed
maliciously by viruses trojans and java) in Linux are ther to be used.
T.N.O.
>>>>>How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr if
>>>>>required?
>>>>How many *need to?*
>>>They all need to sooner or later....though many limp along with broken
>>>functionality becasue they don't even realise they need to.....
>>And using Linux will suddenly educate them to a level where they are
>>happy editing config files? Doubt it.
sniped some good points.
> I can't see any reason to go into /etc
I was comparing it more to the comment about registry tinkering... home
users dont need to, so it was pointless to bring it up, should have been
more clear.
> If you want to do something only slightly off the Windows path, like dual
> boot 98SE and XP for some games compatability, you will also find yourself
> opening a command console for bootcfg, its there because its useful, not to
> be a pain in the arse so you can denigrate its use in another system and
> context.
If you mean for choosing between XP and 98, you can do it from the
"comfort" of a gui.
>>I can be honest about these things, both have advantages and
>>dis-advantages... when Linux has more adv, and less dis-adv than
>>windows, I'll switch, at the moment, it doesn't(note that this is for
>>me, not speaking for anyone else.)
> That will never happen, because your yardstick is Windows
> Users with only one Windows home PC for peer to peer piracy of Windows
> software and playing their latest Windows games are never likely to see any
> advantages. Thats called "lock-in"
Im not your typical home user... multi-boot on this machine, and a few
spare machines, running my favourite distros to tinker.
>>>Do "up2date" or "apt-get" or "emerge <software name>" mean anything to
>>>you?
>>To me they mean the way to keep a linux box up to date, but so does
>>windowsupdate.com there is just a small matter of getting un-educated
>>users to use them.
> They are far more comprehensive than windowsupdate, they allow you to
> install and maintain a current version of every application in the
> distribution
Same theory though... they apply the important patches, still doesnt
make jo bloggs average any more likely to use them.
T.N.O.
> So you don't think they should be able to.
didnt say that, and everyone *can* if they choose to, edit config files,
registry files etc, it is their choice.
> Why not encourage people to be motivated and enterprising.
Because IMO, *most* homes users would break their PC's... if they have a
spare one that doesnt have anything on it of importance, sure, go ahead,
learn what the config files do, but if you break it, be sure it doesnt
matter.
> All you are suggesting is that they take their PC out of use, and take it to
> someone who looks up the virus definition on the web and followed the step
> by step instructions then invoices you or drinks all your beer (or Red
> Bull) !
If it is above the home users knowledge, then yes, this is all good.
harry
"Lennier" <notan...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.11.08.22.37.12.176867@TRACKER...
>
> I didn't find RedHat difficult to install - not the last 4-5 releases, and
> most definitely not the last 2 releases.
>
> The only time I tried to install Mandrake was version 7 or so, and it
> didn't automatically detect my hardware and I didn't know enough to get
> around that.
>
> Things have changed, and I now use RedHat.
>
> Altho' how things will change now that Fedora is the project that RedHat
> is based upon I do not know.
>
> Lennier
>
It is exactly the same, Fedora uses anaconda and kudzu, two of Red Hat's
excellent contributions.
http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/anaconda-installer/
http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/additional-projects/kudzu/
harry
"T.N.O." <ne...@no.spiced.ham.here.please.dave.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3fad...@news.iconz.co.nz...
> harry wrote:
> >>>>>How many home users would know how to regedit the Windows registyr if
> >>>>>required?
>
> >>>>How many *need to?*
>
> >>>They all need to sooner or later....though many limp along with broken
> >>>functionality becasue they don't even realise they need to.....
>
> >>And using Linux will suddenly educate them to a level where they are
> >>happy editing config files? Doubt it.
>
> sniped some good points.
>
> > I can't see any reason to go into /etc
>
> I was comparing it more to the comment about registry tinkering... home
> users dont need to, so it was pointless to bring it up, should have been
> more clear.
If they need to, then they can, just like with Linux, you are quite right,
just like Linux, there are GUI options, but not all the options are
available from the GUI.
There are lots of things that Windows implements better than Linux, but the
registry isn't one of them IMHO
>
> > If you want to do something only slightly off the Windows path, like
dual
> > boot 98SE and XP for some games compatability, you will also find
yourself
> > opening a command console for bootcfg, its there because its useful, not
to
> > be a pain in the arse so you can denigrate its use in another system and
> > context.
>
> If you mean for choosing between XP and 98, you can do it from the
> "comfort" of a gui.
And if you then want to remove the option from your bootloader, which GUI
option do you use ?
>
> >>I can be honest about these things, both have advantages and
> >>dis-advantages... when Linux has more adv, and less dis-adv than
> >>windows, I'll switch, at the moment, it doesn't(note that this is for
> >>me, not speaking for anyone else.)
>
> > That will never happen, because your yardstick is Windows
> > Users with only one Windows home PC for peer to peer piracy of Windows
> > software and playing their latest Windows games are never likely to see
any
> > advantages. Thats called "lock-in"
>
> Im not your typical home user... multi-boot on this machine, and a few
> spare machines, running my favourite distros to tinker.
It makes you a bit patronising and dismissive of other home users, but thats
geeks for you.
>
> >>>Do "up2date" or "apt-get" or "emerge <software name>" mean anything to
> >>>you?
>
> >>To me they mean the way to keep a linux box up to date, but so does
> >>windowsupdate.com there is just a small matter of getting un-educated
> >>users to use them.
>
> > They are far more comprehensive than windowsupdate, they allow you to
> > install and maintain a current version of every application in the
> > distribution
>
> Same theory though... they apply the important patches, still doesnt
> make jo bloggs average any more likely to use them.
Not even slightly the same, if Windows update installed the latest version
of Dreamweaver, that would be more like it.
For a Lindows user, thats how they get all of their "Click and Go software
harry
"Lennier" <notan...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 14:07:41 +1300, harry wrote:
>
> >> Altho' how things will change now that Fedora is the project that
RedHat
> >> is based upon I do not know.
> >
> > excellent contributions.
>
>
> Anybody know when Fedora will be releasing "RedHat 10"?
>
> Lennier
>
No such thing anymore
T.N.O.
> There are lots of things that Windows implements better than Linux, but the
> registry isn't one of them IMHO
Very valid point.
> And if you then want to remove the option from your bootloader, which GUI
> option do you use ?
I dont, I edit grub.conf, or whatever it is called, I don't edit it that
much, and I don't boot into Linux that much on this machine. :)
>>Im not your typical home user... multi-boot on this machine, and a few
>>spare machines, running my favourite distros to tinker.
> It makes you a bit patronising and dismissive of other home users, but thats
> geeks for you.
yep, patronising I am.
> Not even slightly the same, if Windows update installed the latest version
> of Dreamweaver, that would be more like it.
> For a Lindows user, thats how they get all of their "Click and Go software
Up2date serves that shit too? hmm, ok. Havent looked into it that much.
harry
> harry wrote:
> > There are lots of things that Windows implements better than Linux, but
the
> > registry isn't one of them IMHO
>
> Very valid point.
>
> > And if you then want to remove the option from your bootloader, which
GUI
> > option do you use ?
>
> I dont, I edit grub.conf, or whatever it is called, I don't edit it that
> much, and I don't boot into Linux that much on this machine. :)
>
Nope
We are talking about Windows users and NT bootloader.
Try again
command prompt, not GUI
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;289022&sd=tech
Adding an Operating System
At the command prompt, type:
bootcfg /copy /d Operating System Description /ID#
Where Operating System Description is a text description (e.g. Windows XP
Home Edition), and where # specifies the boot entry ID in the operating
systems section of the BOOT.INI file from which the copy has to be made.
back to the top
Removing an Operating System
At the command prompt, type:
bootcfg /delete /ID#
Where # specifies the boot entry ID that you want to be deleted from the
operating systems section of the BOOT.INI file (e.g. 2 for the second
Operating system that is listed.
back to the top
Setting the Default Operating System
At the command prompt, type:
bootcfg /default /ID#
Where # specifies the boot entry id in the operating systems section of the
BOOT.INI file to be made the default operating system.
back to the top
Setting the Time Out
At the command prompt, type: bootcfg /timeout# Where # specifies the time in
seconds after which default operating system will be loaded.
back to the top
Open the Boot.ini File to Verify Changes
1.. Right-click My Computer, and then click Properties.
-or-
In Control Panel, start the Performance and Maintenance tool, and then
click System.
2.. On the Advanced tab, click Settings under Startup and Recovery.
3.. Under System Startup, click Edit.
T.N.O.
>>>And if you then want to remove the option from your bootloader, which
> GUI
>>>option do you use ?
>>I dont, I edit grub.conf, or whatever it is called, I don't edit it that
>>much, and I don't boot into Linux that much on this machine. :)
> Nope
> We are talking about Windows users and NT bootloader.
ummm, no we're not, you asked(emphisis added) "if *you* then want to
remove the option from *your* bootloader"
Personally, I edit grub.conf or whatever it's called.
AD.
>> Do "up2date" or "apt-get" or "emerge <software name>" mean anything to
>> you?
>
> Yes. It's what Linux users have to do to when they *go online* to get
> their OS patched.....
Or to get new software installed or removed. Well except for the RedHat
one.
>
> It's the Linux equivalent of a Windows user going online and getting the
> latest updates, with the notable difference that the Windows user doesn't
> have to manually type in the request to update and patch.....
Redhat has a great big throbbing red exclamation mark in the system tray
when updates are available. Clicking this takes you to a GUI to update all
the distro software on the machine as well. You can have certain apps put
on an 'ignore' list as well - web designers wanting to keep IE5.x on their
machines would appreciate that feature in Windows Update.
Whereas Windows Update only does the base OS and a few things like
browsers or media players. You then have to use Office Update for Office
stuff. And other apps or servers need their own separate manual updates.
And then all the non MS stuff also needs to be kept track of separately.
And this is better how?
> In this age of high powered, multimedia enabled GUI computer operating
> systems, it's amazing that some still insist the command line, and editing
> configuration files, is the better option to install, run, and update an
> operating system, and is a preferred requirement when using a computer....
In a couple of seconds typing I can upgrade all the software on my
machine. You don't understand why I'd prefer that? You'd prefer to remove
choice of interface?
Why then is MS putting lots of effort into Longhorn command line shells,
XML config files for IIS etc etc? Maybe you should point out their
delusion to them?
GUIs are not the be all and end all of interfaces. They are good for some
things, but not so good for others.
Max, the best way to counter ignorant zealotry isn't by sending
more ignorant zealotry back the other way.
Cheers
Anton
harry
> harry wrote:
> >>>And if you then want to remove the option from your bootloader, which
> > GUI
> >>>option do you use ?
>
> >>I dont, I edit grub.conf, or whatever it is called, I don't edit it that
> >>much, and I don't boot into Linux that much on this machine. :)
>
> > Nope
> > We are talking about Windows users and NT bootloader.
>
> ummm, no we're not, you asked(emphisis added) "if *you* then want to
> remove the option from *your* bootloader"
Woohoo, got me there, that really took the wind out of my sails !
>
> Personally, I edit grub.conf or whatever it's called.
(Available as a GUI option in various Linux distributions.)
T.N.O.
> Whereas Windows Update only does the base OS and a few things like
> browsers or media players. You then have to use Office Update for Office
> stuff. And other apps or servers need their own separate manual updates.
> And then all the non MS stuff also needs to be kept track of separately.
> And this is better how?
If windows update did the updates for everything, it would be called a
"single point of failure", or "abusing their market position to control
updates" or "they are just trying to control your computer"
Ms can't win on this front... there will soon be a microsoftupdate.com
site anyway, I read that somewhere so that will cover all MS software.
Anyway, differing opinions, none of us are going to agree on anything here.
T.N.O.
>>>We are talking about Windows users and NT bootloader.
>>ummm, no we're not, you asked(emphisis added) "if *you* then want to
>>remove the option from *your* bootloader"
> Woohoo, got me there, that really took the wind out of my sails !
Good to hear :)
>>Personally, I edit grub.conf or whatever it's called.
> (Available as a GUI option in various Linux distributions.)
yeah I know, but I prefer the command line for this sort of work, but to
bring it back to home users... they probably wouldn't be editing it, or
making these sort of changes to a bootloader. :)
harry
Why else would anyone _but_ a home user be dual booting ?
T.N.O.
> Why else would anyone _but_ a home user be dual booting ?
Dont know, could be any number of reasons, but my mum dual boots win2k
and 98se, 98se is for some picky software that wont run on 2k, some
family try shit.
T.N.O.
^^^^ tree :)
Cheetah
> You'd pay for MS Windows, but not for Lindows? Why is that?
I can't speak for others, but I know I have paid for Linux. I have paid for
it so that those putting together professional distributions are supported.
The reason I am happy to pay is because the software has value (use value),
and I don't want to be a freeloader. Remember, its "free" as in "freedom" -
I know that I will never again be forced into a path simply because its the
current flavour being forced down your throat by a major vendor.
Can you say OLE, DCOM, .NET, ... What about word processors - new feature
bloat that is not building in new services so that they can justify the
upgrade.
The point is that MS are driven by their need to make ever inceasing
profits, and not the best interests of their users. I don't believe this
has always been the case. I thought W95 was actually quite good (at the
time - when its not connected to the internet) and MS seemed to be quite
geniune about creating the product to meet user needs. However sometime
after that the users needs and MS diverged - so that now we are being
forced into needless upgrades, and therefore hardware upgrades - just to
stay up to date and supported.
Other reasons include:
- proven stability. Linux has been stable as a rock since I started using it
in 1999.
- security. Over the time I have been using Linux most of the people I know
who still run Windows have been hit at least once my a virus.
A low price is probably the least important reason I use Linux.
Allistar
> Allistar wrote:
>>>This thread isn't about Linux bashing, it is just general discussion.
>
>> Just look at the thread subject and tell me it isn't Linux bashing.
>
> The subject line is the general ideas from the original link posted...
> which can also be described as the "subject", wow, hard isn't it.
And look at how "Linux" is spelt. Wow, hard isn't it?
Peter
>> Dont know, could be any number of reasons, but my mum dual boots win2k
>> and 98se, 98se is for some picky software that wont run on 2k, some
>> family try shit.
> ^^^^ tree :)
see if she would like to step up to Legacy, it is a free download for the
standard edition (fully functional) and a few $$ for the delux edition
(more bells and whistles). Very popular among genealogists who use
Windows.
http://www.legacyfamilytree.com/
You can buy the delux edition (with a real printed manual) from Beehive
books in NZ ...
http://www.beehivebooks.co.nz/
HTH
Peter
cowboyz
> pete wrote:
>
>> You'd pay for MS Windows, but not for Lindows? Why is that?
>
> I can't speak for others, but I know I have paid for Linux. I have
> paid for it so that those putting together professional distributions
> are supported.
>
> The reason I am happy to pay is because the software has value (use
> value), and I don't want to be a freeloader. Remember, its "free" as
> in "freedom" - I know that I will never again be forced into a path
> simply because its the current flavour being forced down your throat
> by a major vendor.
>
> Can you say OLE, DCOM, .NET, ... What about word processors - new
> feature bloat that is not building in new services so that they can
> justify the upgrade.
>
> The point is that MS are driven by their need to make ever inceasing
> profits, and not the best interests of their users.
This is where you do not make sense. It *is* in the best interest of MS to
meet the needs of their users. It is the same as the stupidity of
"McDonalds made me fat" argument.
>I don't believe
> this has always been the case. I thought W95 was actually quite good
> (at the time - when its not connected to the internet) and MS seemed
> to be quite geniune about creating the product to meet user needs.
> However sometime after that the users needs and MS diverged - so that
> now we are being forced into needless upgrades, and therefore
> hardware upgrades - just to stay up to date and supported.
No one is being *forced* to do anything. Lets say you have a business and
running "X" software on win98. You brought the machine 3 years ago and set
it up. Win98 has just been put on the "lacking support" list. So that
means you've had 3 years to workout all problems and get things running as
they should. If you have then there is no need for furthur support. If
you haven't then too fucking bad. You had plenty of time.
The home user support is totally beside the point. IME home users *never*
contact MS for support. They post to newsgroups/msg boards and talk to
friends and family.
Business machines I have seen running (IME) have dedicated software to do
the job that is required. If the machines can run that software on day 1
they will also run that software on day 1209912.
>
> Other reasons include:
> - proven stability. Linux has been stable as a rock since I started
> using it in 1999.
> - security. Over the time I have been using Linux most of the people
> I know who still run Windows have been hit at least once my a virus.
Blaster (worm/virus) is the only one I have seen since my first x86 PC using
win95. It was repaired in 10 mins. I very often play around/repair
fuckups/ admin networks for quite a few friends and family and have never
seen a virus b4 the blaster. Some people are just unlucky (or stupid)
>
> A low price is probably the least important reason I use Linux.
I charge $50/hour. I work out that the time I spent on Linux it cost me
$3200 in time. AND I am back on windows!! (which cost me $400)