GIANTS in the Albany NY Pine Bush

[Nan Wilson]

I’ve not been in Albany except briefly, but this past Saturday I checked my wafer ash and I found 5 Giant Swallowtail eggs…I’d say a few days along. There were no eggs on it before this. The question is, what are the Giants doing coming so late in the summer. It has happened in the past and I ended up raising them. After I release them where do they go? It seems that their northern flight isn’t working very well. We need to tag them!….nan

[rick cavasin]

Hi Nan, 

I've seen a few flying around Eastern Ontario recently.  There have also been a fair number of recent reports on iNaturalist, both of adults and larvae at various stages of development.  It does seem as though eggs laid now might not have time to reach pupation before the frosts come, but I don't know what the time frame is for development of the larvae.  I think that as long as the larvae have time to pupate before the leaves fall off their host plants, they'll be fine. I guess there are going to be some eggs that are laid too late in the season, and those won't make it.  For those that do, the pupae will overwinter.  Again, some might not make it through the winter - depending on the temperatures.  This probably explains why the spring flight in much of Ontario seems to be rather small compared to the summer flight.

Cheers, Rick

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 21:11, Nan Wilson <nlwi...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

I’ve not been in Albany except briefly, but this past Saturday I checked my wafer ash and I found 5 Giant Swallowtail eggs…I’d say a few days along. There were no eggs on it before this. The question is, what are the Giants doing coming so late in the summer. It has happened in the past and I ended up raising them. After I release them where do they go? It seems that their northern flight isn’t working very well. We need to tag them!….nan

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[Nan Wilson]

Hi Renee, thanks for the info! I don’t know if this Giant is from Kingston - why head north?  I do know my wafer ash is a big attractor and a few years ago I would start getting eggs earlier in the year. Now it’s late August even September. The mysteries of the giant are yet to be revealed…..

On Aug 31, 2023, at 9:50 AM, Renee Davis <rjdbi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Nan,

I have had 6 Giants this year so far. The North Jersey group complained that there were not so many this year, but I've had many more reports here in Sullivan County, than I usually get. I know there is a breeding colony in the Kingston area and when I did my big year, I found them in northern NY in May. I think that is a breeding colony too as I found them two years in a row in the same area, same time. I hope your's make it and form another colony!

Renee Davis 

On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 9:11 PM Nan Wilson <nlwi...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

I’ve not been in Albany except briefly, but this past Saturday I checked my wafer ash and I found 5 Giant Swallowtail eggs…I’d say a few days along. There were no eggs on it before this. The question is, what are the Giants doing coming so late in the summer. It has happened in the past and I ended up raising them. After I release them where do they go? It seems that their northern flight isn’t working very well. We need to tag them!….nan

[Meena Madhav Haribal]

Nan and Rick, 

I just looked up Inaturalist to see when our Giant Swallowtails are recorded. https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?page=2&place_id=1082&subview=table&taxon_id=85024 Most of our records are in August and  September with a few early records. I too remember seeing them later in the season. I should keep look out for them in yard. 

Looking forward to seeing one this year!

Cheers

Meena

Observations Eastern Giant Swallowtail from Tompkins County, US, NY www.inaturalist.org

Meena Haribal

Ithaca NY 14850

42.429007,-76.47111

http://meenaharibal.blogspot.com/

Dragonfly book sample pages:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1ngrZelDNo5QnFDMl9BdVNlLXc

Road Trip to Africa Book Preview https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KsoxFFcMNSck8y_qpxNHqefq4iL-VSSS/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

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From: nyl...@googlegroups.com <nyl...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Nan Wilson <nlwi...@rochester.rr.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2023 10:13 AM
To: nyl...@googlegroups.com <nyl...@googlegroups.com>; mas...@googlegroups.com <mas...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [nyleps] GIANTS in the Albany NY Pine Bush

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/NYleps/61C17EE1-2EB3-4866-8F93-1119B55E143C%40rochester.rr.com.

[rick cavasin]

Perhaps I should have been clearer - we have had breeding populations in Eastern Ontario ever since about 2012.  We see them regularly here in Ottawa. The jury is still out as to whether or not the pupae can survive the Ottawa winter - we tend to see relatively few in Spring.  They COULD be ones that have flown up from further south - like the Kingston/Belleville/Frontenac area, where they are generally more abundant.   Later in summer, they are quite abundant all over Eastern Ontario, thanks to Prickly Ash being fairly common.   

As to the question "why head north?" - well, why do any butterflies head north??   I guess it's just a natural tendency of some species to disperse from areas of higher population density.   Many of the species we see late in the season here in Ontario have no hope of breeding or surviving the winter, yet we see them regularly.  Over the longer term, climate changes.   Species that disperse regularly will be able to exploit niches that open up as the climate varies.  We've had Question Marks migrating into Ontario forever.  Until recently, there was little evidence that they could survive the winter.  Over the past decade or so, we've had a number of reports of winter form Question Marks in SW Ontario in early spring, which suggests that they have managed to overwinter successfully.

My impression is that with Insects, it's a numbers game.  They keep flying north, year after year, in apparently suicidal attempts to extend their range.  Sooner or later, it pays off.  

[rc...@nyc.rr.com]

I’m in kind of a rush, but to be quick, evidence seems to be (1) yes, cresphontes is extending its range north in its habitat zone, esp. with north-creeping range of Hop Tree (presumably climate-indiced). But the recent appearance of Giants in NE in recent years, after long absence, seems to have been fed from Great Lakes populations to the west, less so (if at all) from SE US populations.

 

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/868125v1.full

 

I always like to note that the recent influx is not unprecedented:

 

“A prolonged incursion of the Giant Swallowtail into the northeast took place in the 1870’s and 1880’s, amply chronicled by Scudder and other nineteenth century entomologists.  In 1874 it was found in Rye, New York, where it survived for several years, and then it was noticed and captured in New Haven, Connecticut in 1875. Later in the 1870’s, it was common in the vicinity of Berlin, Connecticut. In the 1880’s it persisted for several years in some upstate New York locations, and even in the Montreal area (Scudder 1889: 1340). In the early 20^th century, it was reported regularly in Connecticut (O’Donnell et al., 2007; 3 specimens in Yale Peabody Museum from the 1940’s).”

 

https://www.butterfliesofmassachusetts.net/giant-swt.htm

 

Darn bugs, who can figure them out?

 

Rick Cech

 

From: nyl...@googlegroups.com <nyl...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of rick cavasin
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2023 12:39 PM
To: nyl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [nyleps] GIANTS in the Albany NY Pine Bush

 

Perhaps I should have been clearer - we have had breeding populations in Eastern Ontario ever since about 2012.  We see them regularly here in Ottawa. The jury is still out as to whether or not the pupae can survive the Ottawa winter - we tend to see relatively few in Spring.  They COULD be ones that have flown up from further south - like the Kingston/Belleville/Frontenac area, where they are generally more abundant.   Later in summer, they are quite abundant all over Eastern Ontario, thanks to Prickly Ash being fairly common.   

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/NYleps/CADKh%3DmhuC8c2XjoxYkXyKZ0f1ZSqEnrAFZGtLehu2us70rsJ-g%40mail.gmail.com.

[rick cavasin]

I generated this map in the Ontario Butterfly Atlas which may be illustrative.  It colour codes "square" according to the year of the first record ever for the square.  Red squares had records before 2001.  Yellow squares had their first ever observation reported between 2001 and 2011.  Green squares had their first ever report in 2012 or later:

https://www.ontarioinsects.org/atlas/index.html?Sort=57&area2=squaresCounties&records=all&name=all&year=n&redYear=2000&greenYear=2012&myZoom=6&Lat=46.49&Long=-79.19

For Eastern Ontario (the area that's largely green), the host plant is Prickly Ash.  Wafer Ash is found in Southern Ontario, but it's fairly rare up here.

[Steven Daniel]

Hi Nan and all,

To add to this discussion it is interesting to see that in 1974 Shapiro (Butterflies and Skippers of New York State)  stated that giant swallowtails were: “ Frequent on the Ontario plain.  Occasional in the Hudson Valley, breeding sporadically.  Erratic on the Coastal Plain, not recorded as breeding in this century.” Below is his dot map - I believe the dots represent collection records over the many decades prior.

Hop tree (wafer ash), Ptelea trifoliata, is considered a rare native species  in NY, where (other than plantings of it, and occasional escapes from cultivation) it naturally occurs only on the Lake Erie lowlands.   So any breeding giant swallowtails in NY away from Lake Erie are presumably using prickly ash (or the occasional populations of hop trees that have escaped from cultivation (several places in southeastern NY, according to the NY Flora Atlas.)  Or other garden plants in the citrus family.   Prickly ash (Zanthoxylum americanum)  is the only native host plant in  NY away from Lake Erie.  Throughout its extensive range, giant swallowtails use a variety of species as host plants, but, as far as I know, all host plants for it throughout its range are in the citrus family (Rutaceae).

It is interesting at some point after Shapiro published his work in 1974, giant swallowtails apparently got extremely scarce throughout NY.   I am not aware of  any reports of giant swallowtails in the 90’s in the Rochester area anyway. I believe the first report in the Rochester area was around 2000 or 2001 - they gradually built up population in western and central NY through the first decade of the 2000’s. It seems most likely they were immigrating coming from areas to the west/southwest of NY.   In Northern NY (St. Lawrence and Jefferson Counties,, they began to be seen more commonly around 2010 and have been regular breeders here since then, as they are in eastern Ontario.  

I saw quite a few adults on the wing this August in northern NY, but few in the first brood, which fits with what Rick has noticed in eastern Ontario.   Nan - I don’t think you should worry.  I would expect most of eggs laid now should hatch within a week or two of being laid, and the caterpillars will likely have pupated early or mid-October, which should be fine for overwintering unless we have an unexpected hard freeze by then.   

Steven Daniel

Edwards, NY

from Shapiro (1974), Butterflies and Skippers of New York State

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[Meena Madhav Haribal]

Hi all, 

A few years ago, Bob Dirig did a study of Giant Swallowtails on Prickly ash in Ithaca area with a student in Fall. They did overwinter as pupae. He may be able to shed more light on these. I think he is on this list.

Hoping one will visit my yard today!

Meena 

Meena Haribal

Ithaca NY 14850

42.429007,-76.47111

http://meenaharibal.blogspot.com/

Dragonfly book sample pages:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1ngrZelDNo5QnFDMl9BdVNlLXc

Road Trip to Africa Book Preview https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KsoxFFcMNSck8y_qpxNHqefq4iL-VSSS/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

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From: nyl...@googlegroups.com <nyl...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steven Daniel <nat...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2023 10:08 PM
To: New York Leps <nyl...@googlegroups.com>

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[rick cavasin]

Here's a link to Bob's paper:

https://bioone.org/journals/the-journal-of-the-lepidopterists-society/volume-65/issue-2/lepi.v65i2.a4/The-Role-of-Environmental-Factors-in-the-Northeastern-Range-Expansion/10.18473/lepi.v65i2.a4.full

I've read that in the past, and from a layman's perspective, it makes sense.  Recent research conducted by folks here in Ottawa appear to contradict his hypothesis, but for various reasons, I don't put much faith in those results.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/NYleps/BL0PR04MB5009DAB76EC1C91D92735B6A8EE4A%40BL0PR04MB5009.namprd04.prod.outlook.com.