Theft of Water Charge- Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden Seeks Pro-Bono Assistance

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Hal Coopersmith

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Oct 19, 2024, 4:20:33 PM10/19/24
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The Mount Vernon Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden seeks pro-bono assistance in the dispute with the NYC DEP over a theft of water charge.

The Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden is located at 421 East 61st Street in Manhattan.  The museum is housed in a stone building that was originally built in 1799 as a carriage house for a large estate. In 1826, the building was converted into the Mount Vernon Hotel, a day resort for New Yorkers.   The Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden has a rich history but limited resources.

In 2019, the DEP required that work be done on the water lines that ran between the museum building and the sidewalk. At that time, a  back-flow preventer should have been installed, but was not.  According to the museum, they did not have notice to do so.  In 2022, the DEP sent a theft of water notice and bill for approximately $22,000, and a backflow preventer was installed in 2023.   Since the installation of the backflow preventer, the museum received an invoice for water charges totalling $87 for its busiest 3 month period.

The museum would like pro-bono assistance and advice contesting its $22,000 DEP charge.  Please respond to this email or reach out to the Nancy Hinkel, the museum's director, at mus...@cda1890.org
 

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Hal Coopersmith, Esq.
Coopersmith & Coopersmith PLLC
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Tel: (212) 625-8505
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Albert D'Agostino

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Oct 19, 2024, 5:03:16 PM10/19/24
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Doesn’t theft require an intentional deprivation of property from the rightful owner?

Where is the intent?

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DAVID M. LINDSEY

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Oct 20, 2024, 9:05:20 AM10/20/24
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Is not a check valve and back-flow preventer one and the same thing?   If one is or is not  installed  means that the flow of water would or would not be stoped from flowing thus controlling/stopping the flow of water in one direction. The presentment of the information on this subject seems to indicate that perhaps they are talking about a public utility water meter, not another type of devise.

DAVID M. LINDSEY

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Oct 20, 2024, 9:05:25 AM10/20/24
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This does make sense.  And what does a back flow preventer  fit in with water theft. 



On October 19, 2024, at 5:03 PM, Albert D'Agostino <aad...@gmail.com> wrote:


Doesn’t theft require an intentional deprivation of property from the rightful owner?

Where is the intent?

On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 4:20 PM Hal Coopersmith <h...@coopersmith.law> wrote:
The Mount Vernon Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden seeks pro-bono assistance in the dispute with the NYC DEP over a theft of water charge.

The Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden is located at 421 East 61st Street in Manhattan.  The museum is housed in a stone building that was originally built in 1799 as a carriage house for a large estate. In 1826, the building was converted into the Mount Vernon Hotel, a day resort for New Yorkers.   The Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden has a rich history but limited resources.

In 2019, the DEP required that work be done on the water lines that ran between the museum building and the sidewalk. At that time, a  back-flow preventer should have been installed, but was not.  According to the museum, they did not have notice to do so.  In 2022, the DEP sent a theft of water notice and bill for approximately $22,000, and a backflow preventer was installed in 2023.   Since the installation of the backflow preventer, the museum received an invoice for water charges totalling $87 for its busiest 3 month period.

The museum would like pro-bono assistance and advice contesting its $22,000 DEP charge.  Please respond to this email or reach out to the Nancy Hinkel, the museum's director, at mus...@cda1890.org
 

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Hal Coopersmith, Esq.
Coopersmith & Coopersmith PLLC
641 Lexington Avenue

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Eppa Hunton

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Oct 20, 2024, 10:27:57 AM10/20/24
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A backflow preventer has nothing to do with charges for the purchase of water from the utility. Water flows from the utility to a user under pressure. If the pressure drops it way allow water from the user to flow back to the utility line and pollute the water in the utility line. Thus, utilities require a device to prevent the backward flow of water from the user.
Hope that's helpful.
Eppa 
From: nyclar...@googlegroups.com <nyclar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of DAVID M. LINDSEY <unaliena...@uarf.us>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2024 8:53:10 AM
To: nyclar...@googlegroups.com <nyclar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [nyclarealprop] Theft of Water Charge- Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden Seeks Pro-Bono Assistance
 

Suganth Kannan

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Oct 20, 2024, 9:23:02 PM10/20/24
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To me it sounds like when they installed new waterline there was no meter put in, let alone Backflow device.
 So city thinks they stole water and come up with some formula to charge $20k

With one year of consumption record, they should be able to ask for refund with a notarized affidavit saying no intentional stealing of water happened.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 20, 2024, at 10:27 AM, Eppa Hunton <ep...@huntonlaw.com> wrote:



lfielding

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Oct 20, 2024, 9:23:08 PM10/20/24
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NYC non-profits are typically exempt from water charges.  If the non-profit has not filed a request for exemption it should be done immediately.

The bill for theft of services should be contested with the NYC DEP.  The museum  or its counsel should meet with the DEC to discuss the charge.   The grounds for a reconsideration could include:  non-profit, faulty water meter, demonstrating the amount of facilities that the museum uses - number of bathrooms, etc., using the recent bill as an estimate of prior water consumption, hours of operation and foot traffic.  At some point, the water meter should be checked to determine whether it is reflecting service to a neighbor rather than the museum.   With respect to pro bono assistance, there are many organizations that service non-profit organizations in NY and NYC.  A Google search will reveal many such groups.  


On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 4:20 PM Hal Coopersmith <h...@coopersmith.law> wrote:
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mark.r...@pondelothes.com

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Oct 20, 2024, 9:23:24 PM10/20/24
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Not just pollution – unrestricted backflow has been known to lead to bacterial contamination, e.g., Legionnaire’s disease

 

Mark S. Randall, Esq.

103 Winchester Ln

Locust Grove, VA  22508-5103

Mark.r...@pondelothes.com

Direct:  304.704.8694

Licensed:  DC, VA

Eppa Hunton

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Oct 21, 2024, 9:50:01 AM10/21/24
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Isn’t contamination with bacteria a form of pollution? 

 

 

Eppa Hunton, Esq.

Eppa Hunton PC

8401 Patterson Av., Suite 101

Henrico, VA 23229

804-747-4547

Fax 804-270-4618

ep...@huntonlaw.com

 

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences

attending too much liberty than to those

attending too small a degree of it.

Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826), to Archibald Stuart, 1791

Chuck Calvin

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Oct 21, 2024, 12:04:07 PM10/21/24
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I'm in Colorado and have no idea what local ordinances or state law in New York may say — but it seems possible to me that it is unlawful to make or use a water utility connection that is not equipped with a backflow preventer, and that water obtained unlawfully might be described as "stolen".

Chuck Calvin
Calvin Law Firm LLC
999 18th Street, Suite 3000
Denver, CO 80202-2449

Tel: +1 720.791.3245

Fax: +1 720.613.4380


From: nyclar...@googlegroups.com <nyclar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Eppa Hunton <ep...@huntonlaw.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2024 8:06 AM

Michael Troisi

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Oct 21, 2024, 9:15:20 PM10/21/24
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I am a retired New York City real estate lawyer and not equipped to take on this matter but it seems the first level of inquiry is to determine whether this is a charge or penalty for the use of water (and sewer) or a penalty for not having a backflow preventer. In my experience non-profits in New York City are not charged for water and sewer. Maybe the questioner knows the answer.

 

 

Michael E. Troisi

Attorney at Law

37 Kimberly Drive

Westhampton, NY 11977

(917) 414-5674

metr...@amtslaw.com

Robert Roth

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Oct 21, 2024, 9:15:46 PM10/21/24
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Some very interesting comments here. One would think the Colonial Dames of America would have at least a few lawyer members whom they could tap to do this work pro bono. (Do they pay a CPA to do their IRS Form 990?) I have not read any reason why they are deserving of free work other than being a non-profit organization. So are numerous other businesses who pay for legal fees.

 

For those on this list who would like an idea of what is involved, here is an outline of the New York City Department of Environmental Protection Customer Dispute Resolution Process. Basically, the steps are:

 

  1. File a written dispute with the DEP, Bureau of Customer Services;
  2. If you are not satisfied with the result, file an “initial appeal” with the DEP Deputy Commissioner;
  3. Still not happy? Then there is a “final appeal.”
  4. And then, the best part: “If you disagree with the Water Board determination, you may file an Article 78 through the NY Supreme Court within 120 days of the Water Board decision. You should contact your own attorney for information about this process.”

 

Who wants to do this work for free?

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