Article on troubles of the No. 4 train
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
the IRT Seventh Avenue Express (No. 4) train. Ain't doing too good.
See: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/nyregion/22delays.html?ref=nyregion
Door holding was cited as one of the causes. For goodness sakes,
they've known about this since August Belmont was in short pants and
they still haven't resolved it?
Put a bunch of uniformed cops on the platforms. The next guy or girl
who tries to hold open a door gets pulled off the train and written up
for illegal interference with subway operations, with the same penalty
as jumping the turnstile. Rotate the cops throughout the system. The
word will go out real quick. The fine revenue will pay the cost of
the cops.
The exceptions would be holding the door for a handicapped person,
mother with baby, or on lines with headways longer than 10 minutes.
Bolwerk
> The NYT had a detailed article, plus charts, on the many troubles of
> the IRT Seventh Avenue Express (No. 4) train. Ain't doing too good.
Not to nitpick, but the 4 runs on the Lexington Avenue Express. :-p
Hopefully the SAS will solve some of this. I'd be nice if future
expansions concentrated on bringing people directly to Midtown, rather
than up and down the trunk lines.
> See: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/nyregion/22delays.html?ref=nyregion
>
> Door holding was cited as one of the causes. For goodness sakes,
> they've known about this since August Belmont was in short pants and
> they still haven't resolved it?
>
> Put a bunch of uniformed cops on the platforms. The next guy or girl
> who tries to hold open a door gets pulled off the train and written up
> for illegal interference with subway operations, with the same penalty
> as jumping the turnstile. Rotate the cops throughout the system. The
> word will go out real quick. The fine revenue will pay the cost of
> the cops.
I'm not sure that holding doors is even something that they fine you for.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > The NYT had a detailed article, plus charts, on the many troubles of
> > the IRT Seventh Avenue Express (No. 4) train. Ain't doing too good.
>
> Not to nitpick, but the 4 runs on the Lexington Avenue Express. :-p
You're not nitpicking, that's a serious error. Sorry about that and
thanks for the correction.
> I'm not sure that holding doors is even something that they fine you for.
AFAIK, no instructional (beyond perhaps a carcard or two) or
enforcement action is taken against door holding.
J.R.Guthrie
>AFAIK, no instructional (beyond perhaps a carcard or two) or
>enforcement action is taken against door holding.
Sometimes the conductor threatens to call the cops at 59th street --
especially when people boarding an R see an N coming and hold the doors for
their neighbors while the conductor is yelling to "let go of the doors."
It's even more fun when one set of doors has already closed while the other
set is held open -- and people from the entire N train sprint for the open
doors while the conductor is yelling about not opening the doors and
threatening to call the cops.
And then there's the conductor on the N who sees what's going on and refuses
to open his doors -- resulting in a stand-off.
Cheers,
Jim Guthrie
Peter T. Daniels
> On Jul 22, 8:09 pm, Bolwerk <n...@way.org2> wrote:
>
> > > The NYT had a detailed article, plus charts, on the many troubles of
> > > the IRT Seventh Avenue Express (No. 4) train. Ain't doing too good.
>
> > Not to nitpick, but the 4 runs on the Lexington Avenue Express. :-p
>
> You're not nitpicking, that's a serious error. Sorry about that and
> thanks for the correction.
So is the problem on the Seventh Avenue line or on the Lexington
Avenue line?
Anna.Ma...@gmail.com
>
> So is the problem on the Seventh Avenue line or on the Lexington
> Avenue line?
Did you want the group to read the NYT article to you aloud?
Bolwerk
Why call the cops? It would be more appropriate to call the fire
department, and had have them hose anyone who does that. It would stop
happening very quickly. ;)
J.R.Guthrie
>
> Why call the cops? It would be more appropriate to call the fire
> department, and had have them hose anyone who does that. It would stop
> happening very quickly. ;)
Why call the cops when there are already a bunch on the platform thinking
it's all kinda funny, given the circumstances of the R train.
If the R ran with some consistency including not being delayed behind an
almost-empty M at 36th that has to wait for two D trains to go by, I don't
think people would be particularly angry enough to be altruistic and have
pity on their neighbors.
AFAIK, the R and the N have pretty much the same rush hour TPHs, but that
doesn't mean that Ns don't keep dumping passengers at 59th without any R
coming by. A lot of things can happen between Continental and 59th --
including clear demonstrations of the old maxim that "Late trains get
later."
Cheers,
Jim Guthrie
Peter T. Daniels
Now how would that work?
No, I want a correction to the original slip to be made.
It's certainly not interesting enough to bother to go to the NYT site
to read about.
Bolwerk
It is indeed a beautiful day in the neighborhood for the little
shuttle. On Monday, it was named the most on-time train in the
subway system by New York City Transit. In the 12 months that
ended in May, the shuttle arrived at its stations on time an
average of 99.7 percent of the time, according to transit
figures. By comparison, major lines like the No. 4 train were on
time only 79.7 percent.
Well, this is amusing. Perhaps everything would be great if the MTA
just broke everything up into tiny little shuttles.
Steven M. O'Neill
Also, it's pretty important to stay on schedule when half the line is
single-track.
--
Steven O'Neill ste...@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Geez, I was about to post this reference, but you beat my post by 4
minutes.
Interesting article. The kid described it as "it's pretty".
Single track line. I presume it is well protected by trip stops in
case a motorman runs a red signal.
Isn't one of the terminals on this line the location of a horrible
wreck (Malbone St/Empire Blvd) years ago? I presume they have time
signals on that approach as well.
The last time I saw this line, many years ago, an employee stood at
the exit and gave out and collected a tiny ticket (like the kind in a
bakery) that still said "BMT" on it. It was for use as a transfer to
the subway below. I understand they've enclosed that transfer spot so
such paper transfers aren't necessary anymore.
But the line was completely covered in graffit and looked pretty bad.
At that time it was a nasty neighborhood.
Anyone know what the area is like today?
Bolwerk
Aye. Perhaps that's another retrograde solution to the problems on the
4 Train. ;)
Joseph D. Korman
At least the don't need the railroad rule that essentially says that:
a late eastbound train on a single track line does not have to wait for
the westbound train that is to be made up of the same equipment.
--
-------------------------------------------------
| Joseph D. Korman |
| mailto:re...@thejoekorner.com |
| Visit The JoeKorNer at |
| http://www.thejoekorner.com |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| The light at the end of the tunnel ... |
| may be a train going the other way! |
| Brooklyn Tech Grads build things that work!('66)|
|-------------------------------------------------|
| All outgoing E-mail is scanned by NAV |
-------------------------------------------------
Bolwerk
> On Jul 23, 1:37 pm, Bolwerk <n...@way.org2> wrote:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/nyregion/24shuttle.html
>>
>> It is indeed a beautiful day in the neighborhood for the little
>> shuttle. On Monday, it was named the most on-time train in the
>> subway system by New York City Transit. In the 12 months that
>> ended in May, the shuttle arrived at its stations on time an
>> average of 99.7 percent of the time, according to transit
>> figures. By comparison, major lines like the No. 4 train were on
>> time only 79.7 percent.
>>
>> Well, this is amusing. Perhaps everything would be great if the MTA
>> just broke everything up into tiny little shuttles.
>
> Geez, I was about to post this reference, but you beat my post by 4
> minutes.
>
> Interesting article. The kid described it as "it's pretty".
>
> Single track line. I presume it is well protected by trip stops in
> case a motorman runs a red signal.
>
> Isn't one of the terminals on this line the location of a horrible
> wreck (Malbone St/Empire Blvd) years ago? I presume they have time
> signals on that approach as well.
Yep
> The last time I saw this line, many years ago, an employee stood at
> the exit and gave out and collected a tiny ticket (like the kind in a
> bakery) that still said "BMT" on it. It was for use as a transfer to
> the subway below. I understand they've enclosed that transfer spot so
> such paper transfers aren't necessary anymore.
>
> But the line was completely covered in graffit and looked pretty bad.
> At that time it was a nasty neighborhood.
> Anyone know what the area is like today?
It's not so bad nowadays. I think it's still rather poor (this is the
Crown Heights & BedStuy area), but it's changing somewhat. Crime may
still be an issue, and there are tensions between the Hassidic Jews and
the blacks.
The stations are generally in good shape. I last used it last year, and
my impression was that the service was pretty good. It doesn't really
take you anywhere, but IMHO it's one of the best lines for touring on
the whole system.
Joseph D. Korman
Yes, but I witnessed a delay a few months ago. The train was in Park
Place and someone held one door for a friend. The T/O kept asking them
to let go, but he was ignored. Finally passenger let go and the door
wouldn't close. I tried to pull it closed from the outside, but it
wouldn't budge. The T/O had to open the door motor panel to get it to
close. That contributed to the 0.3% late trains.
Steven M. O'Neill
>Interesting article. The kid described it as "it's pretty".
>
>Single track line. I presume it is well protected by trip stops in
>case a motorman runs a red signal.
>
>Isn't one of the terminals on this line the location of a horrible
>wreck (Malbone St/Empire Blvd) years ago? I presume they have time
>signals on that approach as well.
>
>The last time I saw this line, many years ago, an employee stood at
>the exit and gave out and collected a tiny ticket (like the kind in a
>bakery) that still said "BMT" on it. It was for use as a transfer to
>the subway below. I understand they've enclosed that transfer spot so
>such paper transfers aren't necessary anymore.
>
>But the line was completely covered in graffit and looked pretty bad.
>At that time it was a nasty neighborhood.
>Anyone know what the area is like today?
Here's a great page about the Shuttle with lots of pictures.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Franklin%20Ave%20station/franklin.html
It says that the track where the wreck occurred is not used for
revenue service.
Bolwerk
> Steven M. O'Neill wrote:
>
>> Bolwerk <n...@way.org2> wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/nyregion/24shuttle.html
>>>
>>> It is indeed a beautiful day in the neighborhood for the little
>>> shuttle. On Monday, it was named the most on-time train in the
>>> subway system by New York City Transit. In the 12 months that
>>> ended in May, the shuttle arrived at its stations on time an
>>> average of 99.7 percent of the time, according to transit
>>> figures. By comparison, major lines like the No. 4 train were on
>>> time only 79.7 percent.
>>>
>>> Well, this is amusing. Perhaps everything would be great if the MTA
>>> just broke everything up into tiny little shuttles.
>>
>>
>> Also, it's pretty important to stay on schedule when half the line is
>> single-track.
>>
>
> At least the don't need the railroad rule that essentially says that:
>
> a late eastbound train on a single track line does not have to wait for
> the westbound train that is to be made up of the same equipment.
What was the purpose of the single-tracking anyway? It was dual-track
until recently, right? It seems to me that single-tracking is making a
bet that ridership will NEVER grow significantly again. Did they
reserve part of the ROW in case they ever need to go back to two tracks?
Agent_C
<joe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Yes, but I witnessed a delay a few months ago. The train was in Park
>Place and someone held one door for a friend. The T/O kept asking them
>to let go, but he was ignored. Finally passenger let go and the door
>wouldn't close. I tried to pull it closed from the outside, but it
>wouldn't budge. The T/O had to open the door motor panel to get it to
>close. That contributed to the 0.3% late trains.
And in all the years I've been riding the subway (more than 40), I've
never seen anyone punished for this behavior.
The TA should play hardball with the NYPD and demand some organized
enforcement. For example, at least one night a week, I see the 'daily
surge' in operation at the Bowling Green station; one cop every 50
feet or so on the platform. This could be used as a model for issuing
summons for subway delay infractions.
Start out with an educational campaign, so nobody can say they weren't
warned; and then after a certain date, issue $50 summonses to people
that hold the doors at rush hour.
A_C
Joseph D. Korman
Probably money. It's double track from just north of PP to just north
of Botanic Garden. That's just enough room for the two trains to pass
each other.
I'm not sure if they planned for expansion, though there appears to be
room at Park Place to put in a second track, though the platform access
would cross a second track. Also part of the wheelchair ramp are about
where the second track would be.
You can see the space in this shot:
http://www.thejoekorner.com/scripted-photo-display.shtm?http://www.thejoekorner.com/photos/nyctbmt/franklinshuttle/7152_21.gif^BMT%20Franklin%20Shuttle%20Park%20Place
I think the heavy riding is only during the school year for a few high
schools along the line.
Joseph D. Korman
True, imagine what the OTP would be if the trains could run without
passengers! :-) Seriously, a good part of the delays and 100% of the
litter are caused by the passengers.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Start out with an educational campaign, so nobody can say they weren't
> warned; and then after a certain date, issue $50 summonses to people
> that hold the doors at rush hour.
Agreed! Holding doors happens throughout the system and adds several
minutes to the total run time of a train over a long route. That's a
big waste of money for crew time and equipment utilization.
Bolwerk
> Agent_C wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:57:30 -0400, "Joseph D. Korman"
>> <joe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Yes, but I witnessed a delay a few months ago. The train was in Park
>>> Place and someone held one door for a friend. The T/O kept asking
>>> them to let go, but he was ignored. Finally passenger let go and the
>>> door wouldn't close. I tried to pull it closed from the outside, but
>>> it wouldn't budge. The T/O had to open the door motor panel to get
>>> it to close. That contributed to the 0.3% late trains.
>>
>>
>> And in all the years I've been riding the subway (more than 40), I've
>> never seen anyone punished for this behavior.
>>
>> The TA should play hardball with the NYPD and demand some organized
>> enforcement. For example, at least one night a week, I see the 'daily
>> surge' in operation at the Bowling Green station; one cop every 50
>> feet or so on the platform. This could be used as a model for issuing
>> summons for subway delay infractions.
>> Start out with an educational campaign, so nobody can say they weren't
>> warned; and then after a certain date, issue $50 summonses to people
>> that hold the doors at rush hour.
>>
>> A_C
>
> True, imagine what the OTP would be if the trains could run without
> passengers! :-) Seriously, a good part of the delays and 100% of the
> litter are caused by the passengers.
I never understood why they don't raise fines for littering drastically.
I'm cool with a lot of things: drinking in public, nudity in public,
cursing, smoking, whatever. But littering really is the height of
disgusting, and it actually screws the environment up more than anything
short of dumping toxic chemicals (and keep in mind, there's some overlap).
Agent_C
>Agreed! Holding doors happens throughout the system and adds several
>minutes to the total run time of a train over a long route. That's a
>big waste of money for crew time and equipment utilization.
Yes, but that's not the worst of it... On a line like the 4/5 with 2
minute headways at rush hour, it causes bunching in very short order.
A_C
Bolwerk
> On Jul 23, 1:37 pm, Bolwerk <n...@way.org2> wrote:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/nyregion/24shuttle.html
>>
>> It is indeed a beautiful day in the neighborhood for the little
>> shuttle. On Monday, it was named the most on-time train in the
>> subway system by New York City Transit. In the 12 months that
>> ended in May, the shuttle arrived at its stations on time an
>> average of 99.7 percent of the time, according to transit
>> figures. By comparison, major lines like the No. 4 train were on
>> time only 79.7 percent.
>>
>> Well, this is amusing. Perhaps everything would be great if the MTA
>> just broke everything up into tiny little shuttles.
>
> Geez, I was about to post this reference, but you beat my post by 4
> minutes.
How much did I beat you by this time?
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/07/24/nyregion/20080724SHUTTLE_index.html
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Infinity. I didn't know about it. Thanks for the reference.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/07/24/nyregion/20080724SHUTTLE_...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -