airtrain (jfk) link to subway
CPAMARV
swallowed up) into a LIRR operation, the jamaica spur (either by virtue of an
unussual switch in dirrection traveled or by extension into the hollis yard
where a loop presently exists) should be either tied into the "e" train at
archer ave, or extended up the van wyck ( I-678) and connected with the astoria
el etension that will be made into laguadia airport. This will allow one seat
travel into the city with easy same platform transfers at numerous stations!
Once the myth of the line being just an airport facility is puctured a way s/b
found to allow rockaway subway riders a 1 transfer access to jamaica without
additional fare via the new van wyck el.
Isaacshome
clientele, two different needs--airport employees will want to take
> the former for $1.50, travellers the latter for $5.00, because the A
is slow and relatively few people with bags who have just spent
> several hundred dollars on their tickets don't want to drag them to
the subway, negotiate the steps, and stand in rush hour traffic.
Philadelphia solves this problem by issuing a pass to make the R1 airport line
a zone 2 station (most employees can get on with either a regular transpass or
zone 2 pass) to pass holders, but a zone 5 station ($5) to everyone else.
Isaac Shomer
Daniel Salomon
: Philadelphia solves this problem by issuing a pass to make the R1 airport line
: a zone 2 station (most employees can get on with either a regular transpass or
: zone 2 pass) to pass holders, but a zone 5 station ($5) to everyone else.
It was worse than that, the last time I took the R1 Airport train. It's
not just Zone 5, it's Zone 5 with a peak fare during all hours. I don't
know why they didn't just put the airport in Zone 6, like Trenton, which
has a $5.00 peak and $5.00 off-peak fare.
However, it was still the cheapest way to get to thr airport, and it is
very convenient, since the train gives a quick 1-seat ride from 4 central
stations to all the terminals of the airport.
-Dan
Eddie Hi There!
Airtrain airtrain airtrain!
I have been scanning 'round the transit newsgroups and I think people
should start to realize that these primitive trains with WHEELS
are going to be phased out, Real Soon Now. (This is,after all, nearly
the 21st Century!!)
The steps between dumb nearly-steam-era tunnels & coal cars and
impulse-levitating monorails (WHICH WE CAN NOW BUILD!!) clearly
call for more elevated tracks. Monorails? Not exactly, the old
double-rails should be the best backup for magnetic transit (Usually
a train will be lifted off, but if power goes out, it would topple
off of a monorail bed, no problem with keeping the old tracks of
an 'El.)
The question is not "How do we connect raised links to a subway", but
"How do we plan to bury subways and extend the magnetic people movers"
Look at the calendar, cripes! It's 2000! Fossil feuls are OUT.
(Maybe Disney could help with design?)
Ed.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Jimmy Doughan
Paid for by business travelers and tourists. Is the airtrain going to be built to
LIRR standards, NYCTA (subway) standards or something else?
Mik
WOTPPAPER
be letting the contracts any day now for the matter transporters from midtown
Manhattan to JFK and Newark.
rein...@world.std.com
Jimmy Doughan <jd...@aol.com> wrote:
> Well, If it is doomed to fail, at least the LIRR will get a line built for free.
> Paid for by business travelers and tourists. Is the airtrain going to be built to
> LIRR standards, NYCTA (subway) standards or something else?
>
Something else entirely. Airtrain uses flanged wheels on two rails at
standard guage and gets DC power from a third rail, but that is where any
similarity ends. The Airtrain trains are fully automated and use a linear
induction motor. Each car has two electromagnetic shoes that push against
a wide strip laid in the center of the tracks. The wheels are not used
for traction and the propulsion system has no moving part. The technology
was first use for the Vancouver Skytrain. See http://
www.transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/5_2.htm for more details.
As I understand it, there is no way LIRR or NYCTA cars could negotiate
the Airtrain terminal loop at JFK.
Arnold Reinhold
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Peter Rosa
Joshua P. Hill wrote:
>
[re Airtrain fiasco]
>
> Man, people should lose their jobs over this.
>
Rest assured, no one will.
--
Peter Rosa
PR...@prodigy.net
pros...@yahoo.com
R32...@aol.com
chuck
XXjos...@mindspring.com wrote:
> On 19 Jan 2000 13:11:19 GMT, cpa...@aol.com (CPAMARV) wrote:
>
> >Rather than evetually converting the soon to fail (by design so that it
can be
> >swallowed up) into a LIRR operation, the jamaica spur (either by virtue of an
> >unussual switch in dirrection traveled or by extension into the hollis yard
> >where a loop presently exists) should be either tied into the "e" train at
> >archer ave, or extended up the van wyck ( I-678) and connected with the
astoria
> >el etension that will be made into laguadia airport. This will allow one seat
> >travel into the city with easy same platform transfers at numerous stations!
> >
> >Once the myth of the line being just an airport facility is puctured a
way s/b
> >found to allow rockaway subway riders a 1 transfer access to jamaica without
> >additional fare via the new van wyck el.
>
> Airtrain should serve both the subway and the LIRR. Two different
> clientele, two different needs--airport employees will want to take
> the former for $1.50,
Now, employees can take a free bus to the subway station. It's a nice
bus. Will airport employees get a free Airtrain ride to the A train?
Will the free bus service to the A train be abolished after Airtrain is
available (for a price?) to take employees to the A train? Why would
employees stop using a free ride on a nice bus?
> travellers the latter for $5.00, because the A
> is slow and relatively few people with bags who have just spent
> several hundred dollars on their tickets don't want to drag them to
> the subway, negotiate the steps, and stand in rush hour traffic.
If a luggage-laden passenger who refuses to take the subway is going from
JFK to somewhere else, how he will travel will depend on where he wants to
go.
If he's not going to somewhere along the Airtrain or LIRR route (for
example, if he's going to Wall Street), I guess that he won't use the
Airtrain. It is too long to take a train to LIRR, then take LIRR to
Manhattan, then take a subway or bus to Wall Street (especially in the
middle of the summer, when the subway platforms are extremely hot).
Many luggage-laden passengers for Manhattan will want to sit down, then
stay in that seat until they are in Manhattan (the famous
one-seat-to-Manhattan goal). Most of them will probably take a private
bus or van (Carey, etc.) although a few may take an MTA bus. The private
buses and vans are nice (for example, they have better airconditioning
than the LIRR), have one seat to Manhattan, and will probably charge less
than the total charge of LIRR plus Airtrain.
There is a ferry service already operating from JFK to various places on
the east side of Manhattan (for example, to Wall Street). If you're on
the deck, you can smoke (even cigars and pipes). I guess that you can
discretely drink on the ferry if you BYOB.
Airtrain will probably appeal to passengers who don't know where the
comfortable and free bus to the subway is, who don't know that comfortable
buses and vans already inexpensively provide a one-seat ride to many
places in Manhattan, who don't smoke, and who are afraid of water. Is
smoking allowed on the LIRR? Will smoking be allowed on Airtrain?
Conceivably the PA may sabotage bus service at JFK (and ask the MTA to
sabotage subway service at the subway station at the airport's perimeter)
to create demand for Airtrain.
>
> It's worth noting though that the LIRR option would provide good
> access to every subway line that passes through Manhattan;
I thought you explained above why travellers will not want to ride by
subway: "relatively few people with bags who have just spent several
hundred dollars on their tickets don't [sic] want to drag them to the
subway, negotiate the steps, and stand in rush hour traffic." If
relatively few travellers want to use the subway (which is your position),
the LIRR's access to subway lines is irrelevant. If many travellers want
to use the subway, they can now take a nice, free bus to the subway
station at the airport (Howard Beach station).
Face it: the Airtrain project is a disgrace.
In THINLY populated areas (e.g., 50 miles north of Fairbanks, Alaska),
round-the-clock mass transit would lose too much money to be profitable.
In densely populated areas (e.g., Queens and Manhattan [which is the most
densely populated county in America]) round-the-clock mass transit is
highly profitable (unless politicians destroy profitable mass transit).
There is no need or justification for Airtrain. Airtrain is the result of
political corruption: politicians causing immense inconvenience (to
people and businesses, some of which will be bankrupted, along the
Airtrain route) and spending huge amounts of government money (paid by air
travellers) to do political favors for construction companies, unions, and
other contributors.
.
dc...@mindspring.com
> There is a ferry service already operating from JFK to various places on
> the east side of Manhattan (for example, to Wall Street). If you're on
> the deck, you can smoke (even cigars and pipes). I guess that you can
> discretely drink on the ferry if you BYOB.
There is NO ferry from JFK to anywhere. There is a Delta
Shuttle-affiliated ferry from LGA's Marine Air Terminal to various points
on the East Side, which is quite expensive but not a bad ride. There
isn't an outdoor deck on the boats that NY Waterway usually uses on this
route.
> the LIRR's access to subway lines is irrelevant. If many travellers want
> to use the subway, they can now take a nice, free bus to the subway
> station at the airport (Howard Beach station).
It's not nice, but it is free. It tends to take a really long time-- I
usually make it from Manhattan to Howard Beach on the A in less time than
from the Howard Beach subway to my terminal.
- David
Bill Calamita
>
> > If many travellers want
> > to use the subway, they can now take a nice, free bus to the subway
> > station at the airport (Howard Beach station).
>
> It's not nice, but it is free. It tends to take a really long time-- I
> usually make it from Manhattan to Howard Beach on the A in less time than
> from the Howard Beach subway to my terminal.
>
> - David
I've had the same experience. I got an express to the airport, without
waiting. Then had to wait for the shuttle, which then got caught in
airport traffic.
The end result: Including wait times, the subway trip _to_ the airport
took as long as the bus trip _in_ the airport.
Bill Hough
"Joshua P. Hill" wrote:
> Well, I think you've answered your question--no bus. Airtrain could
> provide a useful service for airport employees and of course for
> people travelling between terminals at the airport if they made it
> free, as I suspect they eventually will. It's just not worth that $1.5
> billion!
Well, the PA's EIS mentioned a fare of $5.00 from either Howard Beach or
Jamaica to JFK's termianls. Thus, a trip via A train/PA shuttle bus that now
costs $1.50 will jump to $6.50, assuming that the TA fare remains at $1.50. I
think that Airtrain should be made part of "One City, One Fare" and
accept/issue MetroCard transfers. There should not be a "premimum" (read
"gouging") charged for travelling to the airport.
dc...@mindspring.com
>
> Well, the PA's EIS mentioned a fare of $5.00 from either Howard Beach or
> Jamaica to JFK's termianls. Thus, a trip via A train/PA shuttle bus that now
> costs $1.50 will jump to $6.50, assuming that the TA fare remains at $1.50. I
> think that Airtrain should be made part of "One City, One Fare" and
> accept/issue MetroCard transfers. There should not be a "premimum" (read
> "gouging") charged for travelling to the airport.
>
Charging a fare from the A station to the airport is really ridiculous,
even in the context of this whole project. It is, after all, supposed to
be the *airport* subway station. Why not call the 1/9 Cortlandt St
station Cortlandt St / Newark Penn Station. I can get off there and
transfer to the PATH for additional fare and get to Newark!
- David
Ron Newman
> In nyc.transit Bill Hough <brh...@attglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > Well, the PA's EIS mentioned a fare of $5.00 from either Howard Beach or
> > Jamaica to JFK's termianls. Thus, a trip via A train/PA shuttle bus that now
> > costs $1.50 will jump to $6.50, assuming that the TA fare remains at $1.50.
> Charging a fare from the A station to the airport is really ridiculous,
> even in the context of this whole project. It is, after all, supposed to
> be the *airport* subway station.
Indeed. People will NOT use this service if it is outrageously priced.
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/
NEW HAVEN U25B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eddie Hi There! Lowther" <eal34n...@columbia.edu.invalid>
To: <nyc.t...@list.deja.com>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: airtrain (jfk) link to subway
> Message from the Deja.com forum:
> nyc.transit
> Your subscription is set to individual email delivery
> _____________________________________________________________
> Deja.com: Before you buy.
> http://www.deja.com/
> * To modify or remove your subscription, go to
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> * Read this thread at
>
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3E
person
> chuck <reciproc...@carbide.tip.blade.net> wrote:
>
> > There is a ferry service already operating from JFK to various places on
> > the east side of Manhattan (for example, to Wall Street). If you're on
> > the deck, you can smoke (even cigars and pipes). I guess that you can
> > discretely drink on the ferry if you BYOB.
>
> There is NO ferry from JFK to anywhere.
There was one. You're right.
> There is a Delta
> Shuttle-affiliated ferry from LGA's Marine Air Terminal to various points
> on the East Side, which is quite expensive but not a bad ride.
It was a nice ride when a passenger could ride in the fresh air. It was
great to take tourists on. It was even romantic. I guess that the fresh
air deck is no longer available.
> There
> isn't an outdoor deck on the boats that NY Waterway usually uses on this
> route.
>
> > the LIRR's access to subway lines is irrelevant. If many travellers want
> > to use the subway, they can now take a nice, free bus to the subway
> > station at the airport (Howard Beach station).
>
> It's not nice, but it is free.
It's nicer than most MTA buses.
> It tends to take a really long time-- I
> usually make it from Manhattan to Howard Beach on the A in less time than
> from the Howard Beach subway to my terminal.
You're right: too much time passes between buses. The Port
Authority should put more buses on that route or allow private,
fee-charging buses to serve that route.
>
> - David
Mark Emanuele
and just skip JFK altogether 8^)
--
Mark Emanuele
President Overleaf International
PO Box 722
Holmdel, NJ 07733-0722 USA
kenneth lin
"Mark Emanuele" <n2...@home.com> wrote in message
news:38BC76C0...@home.com...
> Why not just take the train to Newark Airport (when the new station is
complete)
> and just skip JFK altogether 8^)
I suspect many will do just that! Continental Airlines would be pleased.
Kenneth Lin
rein...@world.std.com
news:38BC76C0...@home.com...
>
> Why not just take the train to Newark Airport (when the new station is
> complete) and just skip JFK altogether 8^)
>
Umm, when you get to the new Newark station, you still have to take the
monorail to get to your terminal. What is the difference between doing
that and getting on the Airtrain at Jamaica, which will take you to your
terminal at JFK?
Newark Airport will be a stop on the NEC and will get NJT service from
three directions -- that's pretty good. But Jamaica is the *hub* of the
LIRR with service from 11 directions plus two subway lines. That is
spectacular. I can't think of another location in the US where two major
transportation hubs are tightly connected in this way.
Arnold Reinhold
Joe Versaggi
> Newark Airport will be a stop on the NEC and will get NJT service from
> three directions -- that's pretty good. But Jamaica is the *hub* of the
> LIRR with service from 11 directions plus two subway lines. That is
> spectacular. I can't think of another location in the US where two major
> transportation hubs are tightly connected in this way.
>
> Arnold Reinhold
>
No one from Long Island is going to go to this "hub" in order to get to
the airport. That is why ridership is projected to be 7,000 a day, 5,000
of which are airline employees. For less than the cost of what the MTA
wants to piss away on retrofitting Jamaica station for this toy, the
Rockaway line could have been put back into service to serve the airport
and no PFC funds either except for maybe a rail terminal in the airport.
RichLaud
>Rockaway line could have been put back into service to serve the airport
That should happen but who would do so? PA will collect $$$ from its investment
in Airtrain
>No one from Long Island is going to go to this "hub" in order to get to
>the airport.
I think they will. LI traffic can be very painful. It depends on baggage, time
of day, park--and-ride accommodations at LIRR, etc.
If MTA, PANYNJ, NYTA etc were one agency we would not have these problems
richard
rein...@world.std.com
JOEM...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >
> > Newark Airport will be a stop on the NEC and will get NJT service from
> > three directions -- that's pretty good. But Jamaica is the *hub* of the
> > LIRR with service from 11 directions plus two subway lines. That is
> > spectacular. I can't think of another location in the US where two major
> > transportation hubs are tightly connected in this way.
> >
> > Arnold Reinhold
> >
>
> 5,000 of which are airline employees.
31 million airline passangers used JFK in 1998. That works out to 85,000
per day. Many of them make connections to other flights and never leave
the airport. There are 37,000 people employed at JFK. If you figure they
work an average of 4 days/week and make two trips per day, that's 42,000
trips per day. Employees are generally traveling alone, have no baggage
and go often enough to explore different options. So it is not surprising
that they will be a large fraction of the ridership for any mass transit
to the airport. Also, I think the Airtrain projections are low,
particularly with the prospect of baggage check-in at Penn station.
>For less than the cost of what the MTA
> wants to piss away on retrofitting Jamaica station for this toy, the
> Rockaway line could have been put back into service to serve the airport
> and no PFC funds either except for maybe a rail terminal in the airport.
>
Two questions:
1. How are travellers going to get from your "rail terminal in the
airport" to their airline terminals? They'll have to use a bus or a
people mover. Airtrain just makes Jamaica the airport rail terminal.
2. How many trains an hour do you propose to run on the re-opened
Rockaway line? One? Two? There are at least five trains an hour each way
between Penn Station and Jamaica throught the day. The longest gap
overnight is an hour and 20 minutes at 2:30 am. You could never afford
that kind of service on the Rockaway branch.
Joe Versaggi
>
> JOEM...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> 31 million airline passangers used JFK in 1998. That works out to 85,000
> per day. Many of them make connections to other flights and never leave
> the airport. There are 37,000 people employed at JFK. If you figure they
> work an average of 4 days/week and make two trips per day, that's 42,000
> trips per day. Employees are generally traveling alone, have no baggage
> and go often enough to explore different options. So it is not surprising
> that they will be a large fraction of the ridership for any mass transit
> to the airport. Also, I think the Airtrain projections are low,
> particularly with the prospect of baggage check-in at Penn station.
Add the peak LIRR fare from NYP on a cattle train at rush hour with no
room for baggage, and $5 to ride this unmanned thing, I think their
ridership projections are right on target.
> Two questions:
>
> 1. How are travellers going to get from your "rail terminal in the
> airport" to their airline terminals? They'll have to use a bus or a
> people mover. Airtrain just makes Jamaica the airport rail terminal.
The same way as Cleveland, National Airport, Hartsfield, O'Hare. On the
Rockway line, JFK is 25 minutes to NYP. Jamaica is an unneccesary
diversion.
> 2. How many trains an hour do you propose to run on the re-opened
> Rockaway line? One? Two? There are at least five trains an hour each way
> between Penn Station and Jamaica throught the day. The longest gap
> overnight is an hour and 20 minutes at 2:30 am. You could never afford
> that kind of service on the Rockaway branch.
2 to 3 trains an hour, one seat ride, luggage bins, no stairs, no
time-wasted schlepping in Jamaica. Look at Gatwick Airport. There are
more commuter trains to it than there are Gatwick Expresses, but
non-Londoners don't take commuter trains even if they are more frequent
and cost less, and take 10 minutes longer.
Jim Guthrie
> Another possible strategy--have the Airtrain take on passengers in
> separate coaches at Jamaica. It would be a two stop ride, but a single
> one, and Airtrain passengers would be guaranteed a seat. That might
> also help ease tunnel congestion, since I assume that the Airtrain
> will run short trains; the added cars could simply travel around the
> terminal.
>
Reserve a coach for airtrain passengers at Penn Station duing the Commission
Hours? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Reserve a coach on an inbound train in the morning? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
The airtrain will work during off peak hours, but part of the
preposterousness of the scheme is the notion that passengers will find it
easy to ride to Jamaica and transfer. Figure $5.50 for the LIRR, another
$5.00 for airtrain -- and that's $10.50 one way with no seat for more than
half the trip.
Offer a discount for airtrain riders to Jamaica when the LIRR charges so
much for riders to Southeast Queens, and expect it to get past the
politicos? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Airtrain? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
Sorry, the Airtrain is another ROTFLMHO project from the folks at the PA.
Cheers,
Jim
Daniel Salomon
: Reserve a coach for airtrain passengers at Penn Station duing the Commission
: Hours? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
: Reserve a coach on an inbound train in the morning? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
In elementary school we took a trip from Long Island to the Museum of
Natural History using the LIRR, and the front car was reserved for us. If
this is possible on an occasional basis, why wouldn't it work every day?
Does "commission hours" mean the same thing as "peak"? What is the origin
of the phrase -- does it have to do with old regulations about what level
of service the LIRR has to provide during the rush?
-Dan
rein...@world.std.com
JOEM...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> rein...@world.std.com wrote:
> >
> > JOEM...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> > 31 million airline passangers used JFK in 1998. That works out to 85,000
> > per day. Many of them make connections to other flights and never leave
> > the airport. There are 37,000 people employed at JFK. If you figure they
> > work an average of 4 days/week and make two trips per day, that's 42,000
> > trips per day. Employees are generally traveling alone, have no baggage
> > and go often enough to explore different options. So it is not surprising
> > that they will be a large fraction of the ridership for any mass transit
> > to the airport. Also, I think the Airtrain projections are low,
> > particularly with the prospect of baggage check-in at Penn station.
>
> Add the peak LIRR fare from NYP on a cattle train at rush hour with no
> room for baggage, and $5 to ride this unmanned thing, I think their
> ridership projections are right on target.
$10.50 for a trip from Penn Station to JFK is a bargain. Baggage is not
an issue since you will be able to check your bags in at the new Penn
Station in the Farley PO Building. The cattle car factor will deter some
travelers, but the Van Wyck is no joy at rush hour. Watching the
Airtrains zip by overhead while stuck in traffic will convince a lot of
travelers to try them the next time.
>
> > Two questions:
> >
> > 1. How are travellers going to get from your "rail terminal in the
> > airport" to their airline terminals? They'll have to use a bus or a
> > people mover. Airtrain just makes Jamaica the airport rail terminal.
>
> The same way as Cleveland, National Airport, Hartsfield, O'Hare.
Cleveland and National are puny compared to JFK and the walk from the
National Metro stop to the terminal in bad weather was no fun last time I
tried it. Hartsfield and O'Hare both have people movers. More important,
both have much more suitable layouts for a single train station solution
than JFK. O'Hare's domestic terminal is a giant "U" with the train
station in the middle
http://www.cityofchicago.org/Aviation/OHare/Concessions/T1-3concess.html.
(If you are going to the O'Hare's International terminal, be prepared to
shlep your bags from the train station to the people mover.) Hartsfield
is laid out in an "I" formation, with the check-in terminals at on end
along with the train station: http://www.atlanta-airport.com/6frame.html.
> On the Rockway line, JFK is 25 minutes to NYP. Jamaica is an
> unneccesary diversion.
NYP to Jamaica is 18 - 22 minutes and trains are more frequent than you
could afford on the Rockaway line. As for the stop at Jamaica being "an
unnecessary diversion," there are a lot more people living on Long Island
than in Manhattan. (6.9 million vs. 1.6 million). Many of them ride the
LIRR through Jamaica every weekday. Also, I suspect few people who work
at JFK live in Manhattan and airport workers represent 1/3 to 1/2 of the
trips to the Airport by my estimate. The Jamaica stop adds a whole new
market for little, if any, added travel time.
>
> > 2. How many trains an hour do you propose to run on the re-opened
> > Rockaway line? One? Two? There are at least five trains an hour each way
> > between Penn Station and Jamaica throught the day. The longest gap
> > overnight is an hour and 20 minutes at 2:30 am. You could never afford
> > that kind of service on the Rockaway branch.
>
> 2 to 3 trains an hour, one seat ride, luggage bins, no stairs, no
> time-wasted schlepping in Jamaica. Look at Gatwick Airport. There are
> more commuter trains to it than there are Gatwick Expresses, but
> non-Londoners don't take commuter trains even if they are more frequent
> and cost less, and take 10 minutes longer.
>
For a lot less money than it would cost to run 2-3 trains an hour
throughout the day on the Rockaway line, you can run 2-3 extra trains an
hour between NYP and Jamaica during rush hours. The rest of the time
Airtrain takes advantage of ample reverse commute capacity. Those extra
trains, with cars reserved for Airtrain passengers, could be run at a
profit. A one way trip on the Gatwick Express is $16 second class, $25
first class.
David J. Greenberger
> $10.50 for a trip from Penn Station to JFK is a bargain.
$10.50 for a trip from Penn Station to JFK is $9.00 too expensive.
Remember "one city one fare"? There should be a way to get from Penn
Station to JFK for a single $1.50 fare. There is now: the A train to
the free Port Authority shuttle bus. The replacement for the shuttle
bus, even from the Howard Beach A station, will not be free. That is
unacceptable.
Sure, there can be more expensive "premium" services (like the NYCT
express buses and the late JFK Express), but as long as JFK is in NYC,
there really needs to be a service for $1.50.
--
David J. Greenberger
Department of Computer Science, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Joe Versaggi
You can annoy passengers once in a while during rush hour by shortening
a consist or reserving a car or two. Do it everyday, and irate commuters
will get it into Newsday.
Joe Versaggi
> Gimme a break! You've completely misunderstood my proposal. I am
> talking about an airtrain coach, leaving JFK and travelling all the
> way to Penn Station via Jamaica, not a change at Jamaica to an LIRR
> coach, which as my many posts on the subject have made clear I
> consider.as ridiculous as you do. In this particular scenario, the
> Airtrain would carry some extra cars around JFK. At Jamaica, it would
> pick up LIRR transfers in those extra cars. The stop and the trip down
> the Van Wyck would add only a few minutes to the trip, and would be
> economically justified if they permitted shorter headways by making
> better use of the tunnels during peak hours and reducing staffing
> requirements during non-peak hours (because the JFK-Van Wyck will be
> automated). Admission to the Airtrain section would be by
> turnstyle--it's ridiculous to pay a conductor to collect a $5 fare--so
> there would be no conflict between Airtrain and LIRR passengers.
>
An "airtrain coach" is a linear induction vehicle requiring a 4th rail
and is completely incomaptible with anything in MTA-land. The vehicle is
not FRA compliant either. The Airtrain itself will be a 2-car train with
sloped ends and no gangways. The tracks at Jamaica will face east and
thru running from Penn Station will not be possible, nor will there be
any track connections, because it will not, nor ever will be, an
FRA-compliant railroad.
Daniel Salomon
: An "airtrain coach" is a linear induction vehicle requiring a 4th rail
: and is completely incomaptible with anything in MTA-land. The vehicle is
: not FRA compliant either. The Airtrain itself will be a 2-car train with
: sloped ends and no gangways. The tracks at Jamaica will face east and
: thru running from Penn Station will not be possible, nor will there be
: any track connections, because it will not, nor ever will be, an
: FRA-compliant railroad.
Why not? Is there some reason why a vehicle with FRA crash protection
that could also navigate the sharp turns of the JFK terminals part of the
route can't be designed?
-Dan
Joe Versaggi
The Bombardier vehicle will not be FRA compliant, that is a given.
Linear induction vehicles can't run on the LIRR either. You are reading
into the PA propogranda. The PA wants to build something useless for the
its employees to use. They will do nothing to undermine their parking
revenues.
Alexander Nobler Cohen
> Sure, there can be more expensive "premium" services (like the NYCT
> express buses and the late JFK Express), but as long as JFK is in NYC,
> there really needs to be a service for $1.50.
Presumably the Q3, Q10, and B15 will still run, if you really want to go
as cheaply as possible.
Airtrain plus subway will cost $6.50 -- the same as Subway + PATH +
Airlink (presently one of the cheaper ways to get to EWR)
Alex
David J. Greenberger
> Presumably the Q3, Q10, and B15 will still run, if you really want to
> go as cheaply as possible.
Granted -- I should have expected that someone would point out that
connection. But the Airtrain is being priced as a premium service while
not actually providing a premium service. Travelers from anywhere in
Manhattan other than Penn Station itself will have to take 1-3 subways
to get to Penn Station, LIRR to Jamaica, and Airtrain itself, or 1-3
subways directly to Jamaica or Howard Beach and the Airtrain from there.
At best -- if the passenger starts at an E station and doesn't mind
taking one of the most crowded subway lines in the city all the way to
Jamaica -- that's one transfer and a cost of $6.50 for service not
significantly better than what's currently available for $1.50.
> Airtrain plus subway will cost $6.50 -- the same as Subway + PATH +
> Airlink (presently one of the cheaper ways to get to EWR)
But JFK is in NYC while EWR is in another state. And PATH serves
multiple stations in Manhattan while the LIRR only serves one, so PATH
riders are less likely to need to take a subway as well. And isn't
there a local bus that's cheaper than Airlink?
CPAMARV
(penn station or grandcentral via the new link) misses the point as people will
first have to get to and from that station.
As I have proposed previously, the Van Wyk el should be extended (either via a
reverse move at jamaica or preferably eliminating it completely) up the van
wyck, having a stop at the usta which would provide easyconnections to both the
LIRR (as opposed to jamaica madness) and the #7 flushing IRT) unto Laguadia,
tying into the extended astoria el.
With the 63rd tunnel having the potential to relieve the 60th street tunnel of
the bdwy bmt bound qns blvd trains, our jfk to the city line could have full
use of the 60th street tunnel. Given such stops as 60th/lex, times square,
herald square, etc the line would provide the access that is really needed.
Waivers regarding the off airport use of the airport tax is the political
hurdle that would need to be over come. Dual mode cars due to PA stupidity in
design are the acheivable engineering challenge.
Jamaica/Qns Blvd IND access could be added by either:
*having every other train go to jamaica
*having a jamaica reverse move
*running every other train onto the Qns blvd line via the Kew Gardens Yards
*having a Kew Gardens Yards transfer by extending the local trains one stop
into a yard transter only station
Jim Guthrie
>
> Gimme a break! You've completely misunderstood my proposal. I am
> talking about an airtrain coach, leaving JFK and travelling all the
> way to Penn Station via Jamaica, not a change at Jamaica to an LIRR
> coach, which as my many posts on the subject have made clear I
> consider.as ridiculous as you do. In this particular scenario, the
> Airtrain would carry some extra cars around JFK. At Jamaica, it would
> pick up LIRR transfers in those extra cars. The stop and the trip down
Make LIRR people change trains at Jamaica so Airlink can take Penn Station
tunnel/track slots?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA again.
Even if we assume FRA compliance, copatibility and all the rest, many Long
Islanders are already annoyed that the promised "dual mode" service is not,
after all, going to be "just like electrifying all the way to Port
Jeferson." And the limnited slots available devoted to the PA?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
It is politically untenable under any foreseeable circumstance.
> the Van Wyck would add only a few minutes to the trip, and would be
> economically justified if they permitted shorter headways by making
> better use of the tunnels during peak hours and reducing staffing
> requirements during non-peak hours (because the JFK-Van Wyck will be
> automated). Admission to the Airtrain section would be by
> turnstyle--it's ridiculous to pay a conductor to collect a $5 fare--so
> there would be no conflict between Airtrain and LIRR passengers.
>
Well -- that's not such a big difference from now. In the busy commission
hours, conductors and assistant conductors etc. often fail to even attempt a
lift. Adding turnstyles might annoy the freeloaders, though.
I should add that there are always Jamaica-NYP passengers who carry one
ways, figuring they'll only get collected once every few weeks -- making the
LIRR both cheaper and faster than the E downstairs <g>. Thesame goes for Kew
Gardens and Forest Hills. Passenger counts and ticket counts are far lower
than local ridership; there are afternoon trains making the two stops that
regularly have 30-40 passengers detrain, carrying only a one way "Just in
Case."
The classic is when some extra board collector who's something of an eager
beaver does try a lift -- working through sometime after Woodside, with one
helpful Firest Hills Commuter making the ul;timate cacrifice -- taking 5-6
minutes to find the correct change (nickle by nickle) until time runs out as
the doors have to be opened.
In any case -- this is the LIRR we're talking about, not some logical,
well-managed, high enthusiasm & high employee-morale transportation
operation like BN/Metra <g>.
Cheers,
Jim
Alexander Nobler Cohen
> Make LIRR people change trains at Jamaica so Airlink can take Penn Station
> tunnel/track slots?
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA again.
There will be many more slots available once the LIRR-63 St.-Grand Central
connection opens (some years from now...)
Alex
Jim Guthrie
>
> There will be many more slots available once the LIRR-63 St.-Grand Central
> connection opens (some years from now...)
>
MN trains from the North? NJT won't need East River Slots because there,
perhaps won't be any growth on that side?
There will be no one seat rides to JFK until and unless entirely new
infrastructure is built (and I'm including the Rockaway Branch as "new
infrastructure" here.
The best plan I can think of remains abandoning the idea of the LIRR running
to GCT -- but rather add subway capacity, a new line on the LIRR right of
way and 63rd St Tunnel, with across-the-platform connections, subway down to
the airport (and the Rockaways) via the Rockaway Beach Branch, conversion of
the Atlantic Branch (Valley Stream to Flatbush) as subway connecting to
Second Ave -- and then heading to the Bronx on both Dyre and NH Right of
way.
Give it Cab signals and 60 mph running, and you have something do-able.
Cheers,
Jim
Alexander Nobler Cohen
> Alex wrote:
> >
> > There will be many more slots available once the LIRR-63 St.-Grand Central
> > connection opens (some years from now...)
> >
> Oh? They've absolutely given up the idea of more through service to LI? No
> MN trains from the North? NJT won't need East River Slots because there,
> perhaps won't be any growth on that side?
None of that could happen under your plan, either (abandoning the LIRR-GCT
idea, and extending the subway system instead). Anyway, 4 Airtrains an
hour would hardly fill up the 63rd St. tunnel. There will still be plenty
of capacity for more LIRR trains.
It sounds like you're against any kind of dedicated airport service. The
advantage of a dedicated airport service, however, is that you could have
comfy padded seats and luggage racks aboard the trains, and the route
would be nice and easy to use for tourists (they wouldn't have to worry
about getting off at the wrong stop, etc.)
Alex
Thomas P. Grommell
And isn't there a local bus that's cheaper than Airlink?
>--
Yes there is! Came in to Newark on Monday night, and by mistake, took
Newark's No. 62 bus instead of Airlink. It cost only $1. Seemed to take the
same amount of time as Airlink, the only difference being that it did not
have luggage racks, as it is a normal city bus--perfect for travelers with
minimal luggage.
By the way, came in from Atlanta, where I rode the MARTA subway to and from
the airport. MARTA does not cover Atlanta the way NY's subway covers the
four boroughs, but God, MARTA was convenient for me. Took it right in from
(northern suburb) Buckhead through downtown to the airport. Raced through
clogged traffic like a hot knife through butter.
A few steps from the Airport station, there was a Delta desk where they got
me on an earlier flight in minutes. MARTA fare: $1.50 each way. Highly
recommended if you're traveling to Atlanta, and it goes where you wish to
go. God, I wish we had a service such as this to any one of our three
airports.
Mark Mentovai
>>the Atlantic Branch (Valley Stream to Flatbush) as subway connecting to
>>Second Ave
>
>That's not even part of NYC, and you propose running NYC Transit
>trains out to there? For what?
It'll never happen anyway. It would mean that NYCT and the LIRR would
need to share not only right of way but tracks. That's an FRA no-no.
Mark
Joe Versaggi
>
> None of that could happen under your plan, either (abandoning the LIRR-GCT
> idea, and extending the subway system instead). Anyway, 4 Airtrains an
> hour would hardly fill up the 63rd St. tunnel. There will still be plenty
> of capacity for more LIRR trains.
>
> It sounds like you're against any kind of dedicated airport service. The
> advantage of a dedicated airport service, however, is that you could have
> comfy padded seats and luggage racks aboard the trains, and the route
> would be nice and easy to use for tourists (they wouldn't have to worry
> about getting off at the wrong stop, etc.)
>
> Alex
Dedicated Airport trains can run on the Rockaway line, and it could have
been done for $150 million.
Frank Schifano
Peter T. Daniels
City transit systems reach into the suburbs all over the world. What's
wrong with that?
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Paul Matus
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:38C789...@worldnet.att.net...
The New York CIty Transit Authority is a public benefit corporation created
by the State of New York for the benefit of New York City. Its right-of-way
is owned by the City of New York. At present it cannot operate outside of
the City.
Daniel Salomon
: The New York CIty Transit Authority is a public benefit corporation created
: by the State of New York for the benefit of New York City. Its right-of-way
: is owned by the City of New York. At present it cannot operate outside of
: the City.
But NYC Transit buses currently *do* operate outside the City, to the
Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream, the area that was mentioned in the
original posting (the Q5 and Q85).
There are a few other technical exceptions. The Q46 goes on Lakeville
Road, which is maintained by Nassau County, for the last block of its
route. I don't know if there are any stops there. The Q36 runs on
Jamaica Avenue/Jericho Turnpike, and the City line runs down the middle of
the street.
Also, the Q113, a NYCDOT franchised route, goes to Far Rockaway all the
way through the Five Towns area of Nassau County.
These are exceptions, though, and the City Line does tend to be a wall
when it comes to most local transit service.
-Dan
Paul Matus
"Daniel Salomon" <dsal...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:8a91sc$4eu$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
IIRC, The Green Acres required a special exception because so many Queens
residents wanted to be able to shop there, and dropping folks off at Hook
Creek Parkway to walk the rest of the way was kind of nasty.
Private companies holding city franchiess are not covered by the Authorities
Law which created NYCTA. Suburban bus lines operating into Queens (now taken
over by MSBA) also require city franchises.
Joe Versaggi
>
> On Thu, 09 Mar 2000 01:36:05 GMT, Joe Versaggi
> <JOEM...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Dedicated Airport trains can run on the Rockaway line, and it could have
> >been done for $150 million.
>
> Rockaway line would require knew infrastructure, I imagine that with
> the Van Wyck connection in place it will be cheaper to run the one
> seat Airtrains via Jamaica.
>
It needs tree cutting, some new fill, new track/ballast/signals, and a
new overpass over the Montauk branch in Glendale. That's a fraction of
the cost of building Airtain, disrupting the Van Wyck, and all the
neighborhood streets.
Paul Matus
"Joe Versaggi" <JOEM...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:38C81EA6...@worldnet.att.net...
All irrelevant.
The way the law is written, PA will pay for Airtrain. PA will not pay for a
service on the former Rockaway Line.
Really the end of the story. Not the first time in history that inferior
solutions trumped superior ones because of the where the money is.
Peter Rosa
Joe Versaggi wrote:
[re LIRR Rockaway line]
>
> It needs tree cutting, some new fill, new track/ballast/signals, and a
> new overpass over the Montauk branch in Glendale. That's a fraction of
> the cost of building Airtain, disrupting the Van Wyck, and all the
> neighborhood streets.
I'm going on the Subtalk walking tour of the line this Sunday. That
should give me some idea of the right-of-way's current condition.
--
Peter Rosa
PR...@prodigy.net
pros...@yahoo.com
R32...@aol.com
Peter Rosa
Joshua P. Hill wrote:
>
> Anyway, if capacity on the LIRR between Jamaica and the tunnels is an
> issue, it seems to me that the most economical solution is to improve
> the situation at Atlantic Avenue and provide an attractive alternative
> to Penn and GCT for people headed downtown.
One quick and easy way is to resume the former practice of charging less
money for travel into Atlantic Avenue vs. Penn Station.
Peter Rosa
Joe Versaggi wrote:
>
> Peter Rosa wrote:
> >
> > I'm going on the Subtalk walking tour of the line this Sunday. That
> > should give me some idea of the right-of-way's current condition.
> >
>
> I hope for your sake the deer ticks or poisin ivy aren't out. Hope you
> report back. Don't step on the 3rd rail now.
If you don't hear from me by, say, Tuesday afternoon, send out the St.
Bernard with a cask of brandy ... or is that for mountain rescue?
Joe Versaggi
>
> "Joe Versaggi" <JOEM...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:38C81EA6...@worldnet.att.net...
> > new overpass over the Montauk branch in Glendale. That's a fraction of
> > the cost of building Airtain, disrupting the Van Wyck, and all the
> > neighborhood streets.
>
>
> The way the law is written, PA will pay for Airtrain. PA will not pay for a
> service on the former Rockaway Line.
>
> Really the end of the story. Not the first time in history that inferior
> solutions trumped superior ones because of the where the money is.
PA will not pay $215 million in simply refurbishing Jamaica Station for
Airtrain, the MTA-LIRR will. That is in excess of refurbishing the
entire Rockaway line. The PA also threatened airlines who opposed
Airtrain to not assist in refurbishing their terminals. The PA could
have paid for Rockaway line stations in the airport from the PFC, but
they would not.
Joe Versaggi
>
> Joe Versaggi wrote:
>
> [re LIRR Rockaway line]
>
> >
> > new overpass over the Montauk branch in Glendale. That's a fraction of
> > the cost of building Airtain, disrupting the Van Wyck, and all the
> > neighborhood streets.
>
Joe Versaggi
>
> Joe Versaggi wrote:
> >
>
> > >
> > > I'm going on the Subtalk walking tour of the line this Sunday. That
> > > should give me some idea of the right-of-way's current condition.
> > >
> >
> > I hope for your sake the deer ticks or poisin ivy aren't out. Hope you
> > report back. Don't step on the 3rd rail now.
>
> Bernard with a cask of brandy ... or is that for mountain rescue?
>
> --
Paul Matus
A beagle has an amazing nose, but it helps a lot if you're a rabbit.
Alexander Nobler Cohen
> The more I think about it, the more i wonder why they can't convert
> the Atlantic Avenue branch to mass transit, juice up some subway cars
> with comfotable seats, and run them straight through from Jamaica to
> lower Manhattan to avoid the extra transfer. Once in the City they
> would just continue in regular subway service, so there would be no
> effect on the capacity of the lines involved. It could also serve as
> skip-stop superexpress service in Brooklyn.
Yes, good idea, but which subway line to fit with "comfortable" (i.e.
BIG, capacity-reducing) seats? It would have to be a relatively uncrowded
line, that serves Lower Manhattan. Maybe the R? The M could be rerouted
to Bay Ridge and run at all times.
Or the Atlantic line could run from Jamaica to Chambers St. via the
Montague tunnel and Nassau line and end there. Then you wouldn't have to
screw around with the subway system much, although the Montague tunnel
might get kinda crowded (might have to eliminate M service to Brooklyn
altogether).
The actual track connection from the Atlantic branch to the subways might
be kinda tricky, no?
Alex
Peter Schleifer
>
> Or the Atlantic line could run from Jamaica to Chambers St. via the
> Montague tunnel and Nassau line and end there. Then you wouldn't have to
> screw around with the subway system much, although the Montague tunnel
> might get kinda crowded (might have to eliminate M service to Brooklyn
> altogether).
All you have to do is fully reopen the Manhattan Bridge. Then you get
the N out of the Montague Tunnel and have room for another line.
> The actual track connection from the Atlantic branch to the subways might
> be kinda tricky, no?
Nothing that couldn't be remedied given a sufficient amount of cash.
--
Peter Schleifer
"Ignorance is easy and you get it for free"
rein...@world.std.com
JOEM...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
...
>
> PA will not pay $215 million in simply refurbishing Jamaica Station for
> Airtrain, the MTA-LIRR will. That is in excess of refurbishing the
> entire Rockaway line. The PA also threatened airlines who opposed
> Airtrain to not assist in refurbishing their terminals. The PA could
> have paid for Rockaway line stations in the airport from the PFC, but
> they would not.
>
My understanding is that the PA *is* paying for refurbishing Jamaica
Station. That money is coming out of the PA's capital funds. The rest of
the Airtrain project is being paid for by the $3/head Passenger Facility
Charge. The airlines would not let PFC moiney be used to pay for the
Jamaica station fixup.
Hhere is what the PA web site www.panynj.com says in its Airtrain FAQ:
>"3. Is it true that no state or federal taxes go toward the funding of AirTrain?
> Yes. The light-rail system will be paid for through a combination of revenue from an existing $3 surcharge on departing passengers under the Passenger Facility Charge (PFC) program, and Port Authority funds. No tax dollars will fund the project. Construction costs will be covered by PFC and Port Authority capital funds. Once the system is operating, it will pay for itself. Operating revenues are expected to exceed operating costs."
I am also curious about the basis of your claim that $215 million would
have been enough to refurbish the entire Rockaway line. Was a formal cost
estimate ever made?
Arnold Reinhold
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
rein...@world.std.com
meetings, traveling on Acela Regional train 131, which left on time at
6:15 am. The train was led by electric locomotives 945 and 911 followed 6
coaches, a cafe car and a business class car. Private car Caritas was
parked on an adjacent track. My coach was nearly empty; not that many
people boarded at South Station.
The coaches are refurbished Amfleet units, Electric outlets at every seat
made my laptop happy. The toilets are much nicer, but I wonder if they
will have trouble with the sliding doors. The car down was too cool (I
at least know to bring a sweater), coming back it was a bit to warm. The
Public Address systems still do not work reliably. The Café car sports a
new menu, including a tasty Thai Chicken Wrap sandwich.
After we left, just past the platforms, I saw a section of track riddled
with hoses and buried pipes, many covered with ice. The ground under the
tracks is being frozen solid in preparation for Big Dig work. It is
always sad to see all the abandoned sidings along the right of way. There
were 3 active freight customers (judged by freight cars on the siding) on
the west side of the track between Back Bay and Rote 128.
We arrived at Route 128 station at 6:34. While a few more passengers had
gotten on at Back Bay, most of Train 131's passengers from the Boston
area boarded at 128. Route 128 is Amtrak's secret weapon in the
forthcoming battle with the Airline shuttles. It is 15 minutes closer to
New York and much more convenient than Logan airport for most people in
the southern and western suburbs of Boston. The new parking garage will
be cheaper than parking at Logan, even at the new $10 per day rate for
over 14 hours.
I explored the 128 station a couple of days earlier when I picked up my
tickets. The station is bright and shiny-new, but sterile. Some artwork
would help. The MBTA ticket machines are on the third floor, near the
bridge that takes commuters to the inbound platform. The Amtrak ticket
booth and waiting area are on the ground floor. The waiting room is
spacious, with floor to ceiling glass walls that face the tracks. The new
platforms are complete and are open for 2/3 of their length.
There is a strip of land between the station building and the westbound
platform that is clearly designed to accommodate a third track in the
future. For now you can go out a door from the waiting room, cross the
track-to-be and go up few stairs or a ramp to the westbound platform. If
the third track is ever built, Amtrak passengers will have to go up the
escalators or elevator, cross the bridge and down to what will be the
center platform. There was no sign of a car rental franchise, something I
think is vital, though part of the waiting room is marked as a "business
area" on the floor plans near the fire alarm.
Near Providence, many of the new catenary support poles have been tagged
with graffiti, some alarmingly high up. We arrived at Providence at 6:57.
Many more passengers boarded and the train became quite full, tho I did
not have to give up the seat next to mine. We stopped for construction
near Cranston for a couple of minutes after leaving Providence.
At 7:53 we stopped at New London. New Haven arrival was 8:42. The track
construction around New Haven seems pretty much complete, but the
approach to New Haven was still quite slow. The one clear indication that
this trip was different: "Ladies and Gentlemen we are approaching New
Haven station. Do not get off the train at New Haven, as we will only be
here for a few minutes. Not even enough time to smoke a cigarette."
South of New Haven I noticed very little ROW fencing until we got closer
the New York. It is always interesting to me that the parking lots at all
the commuter rail stations are nearly full on weekdays. Near Bridgeport,
there is heavy construction on I-95. This massive work plus the Big Dig
makes you realize haw short-changed the rail lines have been.
We had to wait for a few minutes at New Rochelle before being switched to
the Hells Gate line. The condition of the ROW after that is very ugly,
with lots of garbage, tires and rubble strewn along the side of the
track. A cleanup would do much to make the ride more enjoyable,
We also stopped briefly in Sunnyside, Queens. I saw NYA loco 261. We
entered the tunnel at 10:05 and arrived at Penn Station at 10:10 -- on
time - 3 hours and 55 minutes from Boston.
I walked to my lunch meeting at 54th Street and Third Avenue, stopping at
Grand Central Terminal which was along the way. The renovated station is
quite spectacular. I took the new Northeast Passageway that runs along
the tracks and exits at 48th Street and Park Avenue. This simple
improvement must save commuters an enormous amount of time.
Airtrain
After lunch I had a few hours to kill before a dinner appointment, so I
decided to explore the venues for the controversial Airtrain that will
link Jamaica Station on the LIRR with Kennedy Airport. I went to the
subway station at 53rd St and 3 Ave., which is located in the City Corp
building, purchased an all day Metro card from a vending machine for $4
using my credit card at 2:29, and got on an E train at 2:37. I arrived at
Sutphin Blvd - Archer Ave stop at 3:04. The subway station is new and
attractive. An escalator takes you up to the street under the massive
LIRR station. You can then take stairs to one of the four (?) platforms.
The area under the station is scruffy and poorly lit. There is also a
small waiting room and ticket office that is much nicer with access to
the tracks.
The Jamaica LIRR station is quite impressive. There are few stations in
North America where you can view as extensive a sea of tracks from either
end of the platform. The complex is about on the same scale as South
Station in Boston. There are 8 station tracks at Jamaica and several more
tracks on either side of the station, presumably for storage, though only
three trains were stored there. There is plenty of room to add the
Airtrain tracks and station
One feature of the station that amazed me was a passenger crossing at
grade at the east end of the platforms. There were no "Authorized
personnel only" signs in view. This seems a dangerous anachronism,
especially with third rail electrification, though I can imagine that
there is not enough overpass capacity at rush hour.
The neighborhood has lots of low rise street front stores and many people
shopping. There are a few office buildings but they all seemed to be
governments offices -- NYC Finance Department, Social Security
Administration, etc. It will be interesting to see if Airtrain makes
this neighborhood more attractive for private offices. Eight minutes to
JFK plus all the commuter rail you can eat could attract a lot of jobs to
this neighborhood. We'll see if NYC politics lets that happen.
I purchased an off-peak ride to Penn Station for $3.75 at the ticket
window. The vending machine wouldn't read my credit card. The 4:06 train
had quite a few passengers so I had to take a rear facing seat to get a
window.
There has been a fair amount of discussion on the nyc.transit news group
regarding whether travelers to JFK would find conditions on the LIRR to
Jamaica acceptable, particularly at rush hour. One poster referred to
"Cattle car conditions." Since I still had time to kill, I decided to
see for myself, and hung around the platforms from 4:45 to 6:20.
What I saw on a normal Wednesday evening rush, was busy to be sure, but
hardly deserved Cattle Car status. It was nothing like the subway at rush
hour. Most trains were in the station for 10 to 13 minutes before
departure. After about 5:30 there were small knots of people waiting for
each train before it came into the station, but most passengers arrived
after the train was in. A few trains had shorter boarding time periods.
The worst I saw was the 5:59 to Babylon. It came in at 5:53 and by then
the knots of people had grown quite large (people seem to know where the
doors will be). While I could not observe every platform, only a few
trains seemed to fit this pattern. And even so, all the people who were
at the platform when the train arrived got seats. Standees were mostly
people who dashed to the train in the last few minutes and dashed to the
train. (a few people seemed to prefer standing since there were seats
available when they boarded.) . 6 pm seem to be the peak of the rush,
though I could not observe after 6:20.
Another important observation, I think, is that most commuters entered
the platforms from the east (7th avenue). Airtrain baggage check-in will
be at the new Penn Station in the Farley Post office so presumably these
passengers will enter from the west (8th Avenue) end. This will be a lot
less hectic.
A key factor in the success of Airtrain will be some kind of system to
send Airtrain passengers to the optimal LIRR train. This will generally
not be the very next departure for Jamaica. Since there are 10 trains per
hour between Penn Station and Jamaica during evening rush hour, it may
make sense to send Airtrain passenger to a train selected so that they
will arrive at the platform 8 or so minutes before departure. This will
insure that they get seats. It may also make sense to skip the most
crowded departures and the locals all together.
On the other hand, there is no doubt that a portion of the Manhattan to
JFK market will never be willing to deal with crowds of commuters,
however modest. They will consider nothing less than rail cars exclusive
for airport passengers. How much public funds should be expended to
indulge them is a fair question. A privately financed Jamaica shuttle
might do very well.
Another interesting possibility would be a new extra-fare, extra-
amenities subway run from Howard Beach to Jamaica, running on the "A" and
"E" routes, say, every half hour. Both ends would terminate at Airtrain
stations. Passengers from Manhattan north of roughly 42nd street would
prefer the train to Stuphin Blvd. Passengers south of say Chambers street
would head to Howard Beach. Passengers who board in between would take
the next train in either direction. Passengers who just miss their
preferred train could still take the next train in the other direction.
Back to Boston
Returning to Boston I rode Amtrak 131 Acela Regional led by electric
locos 936 and 952. We left Penn Station from track 10 on time at 8:35 am
and arrived at South Station at 12:40, six minutes late. Diesel 245 was
then coupled to the head end to push the train out of the station.
The Lake Shore Ltd. was on Track 11 Lead by Genesis 83 and F40(?) 313,
followed by 2 Amfleet coaches, a Café/Dinette car, Viewliner 62008 and 3
express cars. Caritas was also still parked at the station.
One big pain going from South Station to the MBTA Red Line has been the
"hump" in the passageway where you have to go up 5 steps and then down
another flight. I saw new entrance to the Red Line being prepared that
avoids the hump. It looks like it will be open soon. At Harvard Square,
I took the #73 trackless trolley home for an all electric ride from New
York.
Daniel Salomon
: One feature of the station that amazed me was a passenger crossing at
: grade at the east end of the platforms. There were no "Authorized
: personnel only" signs in view. This seems a dangerous anachronism,
: especially with third rail electrification, though I can imagine that
: there is not enough overpass capacity at rush hour.
That crossing at the east end of Jamaica is not intended for passengers,
AFAIK. I've never seen any passengers using it, and overpass capacity has
not been a major problem. They even built a new overpass during the
renovation a few years back, in order to provide elevator access to each
platform. Are there even stairs down to that crossing, or is it just
ladders? I think it's clear that they are for employees only even if
there is no sign.
-Dan
rein...@world.std.com
Daniel Salomon <dsal...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
> rein...@world.std.com wrote:
> : One feature of the station that amazed me was a passenger crossing at
> : grade at the east end of the platforms. There were no "Authorized
> : personnel only" signs in view. This seems a dangerous anachronism,
> : especially with third rail electrification, though I can imagine that
> : there is not enough overpass capacity at rush hour.
>
> AFAIK. I've never seen any passengers using it, and overpass capacity has
> not been a major problem. They even built a new overpass during the
> renovation a few years back, in order to provide elevator access to each
> platform. Are there even stairs down to that crossing, or is it just
> ladders? I think it's clear that they are for employees only even if
> there is no sign.
>
There were stairs at the end of the platforms and a nice walkway across
the tracks. I did see a couple of people use the crossing. They could
have been employees, I suppose.
You may be right that most passengers understand it's not for them, but
if that is the case, LIRR should put up signs and chains. If the risk of
someone getting killed isn't convincing, the field day the lawyers would
have should be.
Dave Snowden
>In article <8amaod$q9g$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
>Daniel Salomon <dsal...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>> rein...@world.std.com wrote:
>> : One feature of the station that amazed me was a passenger crossing at
>> : grade at the east end of the platforms. There were no "Authorized
>> : personnel only" signs in view. This seems a dangerous anachronism,
>> : especially with third rail electrification, though I can imagine that
>> : there is not enough overpass capacity at rush hour.
>>
>> That crossing at the east end of Jamaica is not intended for passengers,
>> AFAIK. I've never seen any passengers using it, and overpass capacity has
>> not been a major problem. They even built a new overpass during the
>> renovation a few years back, in order to provide elevator access to each
>> platform. Are there even stairs down to that crossing, or is it just
>> ladders? I think it's clear that they are for employees only even if
>> there is no sign.
>>
>
>There were stairs at the end of the platforms and a nice walkway across
>the tracks. I did see a couple of people use the crossing. They could
>have been employees, I suppose.
>
>You may be right that most passengers understand it's not for them, but
>if that is the case, LIRR should put up signs and chains. If the risk of
>someone getting killed isn't convincing, the field day the lawyers would
>have should be.
The way Jamaica works is that the trains arrive on the 2 outside
platforms using all three tracks and the changing passengers just walk
thru the train on track 2 or track 7 to get to their train. The middle
platform (tracks 4 & 5) are not used that much and everyone is used to
taking the first thing they come to which is either the overpass or
the subway.
=============================
Redondo Beach, California
USA
wa...@murray.fordham.edu
Yes.
> of the phrase -- does it have to do with old regulations about what level
> of service the LIRR has to provide during the rush?
IIRC, it refers to the times when the Transit Commission required reduced
fares.
Michael Wares
wa...@fordham.edu
Bill Heitner
Airtran question...from what I read on the website....its an automated
system and
will operate 24 hrs a day....to jamaica. and Broad Channel....I
believe there is little or no service between 1 & 5 am..to penn
sta...on the LIRR...so who would want to wait there all nite??
They also expect 30% of riders..to be JFK employees..., the balance
obviously travelers...But to be dragging Luggage/Kids.etc..to the
LIRR/then Airtrans..will be a hassle..and the Business Traveler will
be in a Cab or Limo on their expense acct....so who will be on
it...IMO..??
kenneth lin
"Bill Heitner" <ams...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> Airtran question...from what I read on the website....its an automated
> system and
> will operate 24 hrs a day....to jamaica. and Broad Channel....I
> believe there is little or no service between 1 & 5 am..to penn
> sta...on the LIRR...so who would want to wait there all nite??
Don't forget, there is also E and J train service from Sutphin Blvd to
various points in New York City.
> They also expect 30% of riders..to be JFK employees..., the balance
> obviously travelers...But to be dragging Luggage/Kids.etc..to the
> LIRR/then Airtrans..will be a hassle..and the Business Traveler will
> be in a Cab or Limo on their expense acct....so who will be on
> it...IMO..??
Not everyone who travels does so encumbered with lots of luggage. Not all
business travelers are on expense accounts, and even those who are may value
a more reliable trip time, free from the vagaries of expressway traffic.
Kenneth Lin
dc...@mindspring.com
: Airtran question...from what I read on the website....its an automated
: system and
: will operate 24 hrs a day....to jamaica. and Broad Channel....I
: believe there is little or no service between 1 & 5 am..to penn
: sta...on the LIRR...so who would want to wait there all nite??
The LIRR does still have service. I think there's a long gap around 3am,
but otherwise there are at least a couple trains each hour running between
Manhattan/Brooklyn and Jamaica all night long. Not sure that anyone will
be using Airtrain to Jamaica at that hour anyway, though.
- David
Joseph Brennan
>> Does "commission hours" mean the same thing as "peak"? What is the origin
>fares.
When the elevated fare was 10 cents in the 19th C, the Board of Rapid
Transit Railroad Commissioners required the companies to run a service
of trains for workmen at 5 cents, during what we would call rush
hours. The companies decided to make it simple and run all trains at
5 cents during those hours, so they were the "commission hours".
Prices gradually dropped from 1865 to 1910, a long period of deflation
that is hard to believe for anyone alive today! In the late 1880's,
the Manhattan Railway company voluntarily dropped the fare to 5 cents
at all times. Ridership increased and profits soared. This ended the
actual meaning of commission hours, but the phrase stuck.
Now there may be another supporting origin, but here I am recalling
something read years ago. Around London, it often seemed to be the
workmen's neighborhoods that were torn apart by railroad construction,
and the railroads were required by some commission to relocate the
workmen elsewhere on the line and offer a service of trains at a very
cheap fare during... commission hours.
Joe Brennan Columbia University in the City of New York
bre...@columbia.edu ("affiliation shown for identification only")
http://www.cc.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/
rein...@world.std.com
I flew into JFK at 11:30 pm Sunday night on a flight from Frankfurt that
had been delayed 8 hours (which was good becuase otherwise I would not
have gotten home at all thast day, since it let me make a connection that
replaced my flight thru England, canceled due to an air traffic control
computer crash. Flying is sooo dependable...).
There was a long wait for taxis, so I took a gypsy cab for $30. He got
stuck for half an hour in a midnight traffic jam at the entrance to the
LIE. I was kicking myself for not having told him to take me to Jamaica
station.
Watching the Airtrain ramps under construction, reminded me how great it
will be to have a dependable way to get to get to to and from JFK -- even
that late at night. I predict Airtrain will exceed ridership projections
by a substantial amount.
Michael Hamm
(bus/train/monorail/whatever) from the station directly to the terminals?
Michael Hamm | NB: This e-mail address will be active
BA, Math, Sept. '00 | not much longer than three months.
msh...@nyu.edu | Info in this spot as available.
http://www.crosswinds.net/~msh210/
David J. Greenberger
> What's wrong with the A train to JFK and a to-be-built shuttle
> (bus/train/monorail/whatever) from the station directly to the
> terminals?
That to-be-built shuttle bus has already been built, and is free (which
its AirTrain replacement won't be, or so I've heard).
--
David J. Greenberger
Department of Computer Science, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Thor Lancelot Simon
David J. Greenberger <gren...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Michael Hamm <msh...@nyu.edu> writes:
>
>> What's wrong with the A train to JFK and a to-be-built shuttle
>> (bus/train/monorail/whatever) from the station directly to the
>> terminals?
>
>That to-be-built shuttle bus has already been built, and is free (which
>its AirTrain replacement won't be, or so I've heard).
And it completly sucks. It's one damned shuttle bus for the parking lot
and half of the terminals (another bus hits the lot and the other half
of the terminals). Service is infrequent in the extreme, and the route
is so long that to get to one's flight can take 30 minutes! They've
managed to make a reasonably transit-accessible airport totally awful by
mis-routing and mis-scheduling the buses to such an extent that it seems
deliberate.
Which leaves me little reason to think their shiny expensive train will
be any better...
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"
Daniel Salomon
run 24 hours.
-Dan
David J. Greenberger
> In article <s0tzoog...@csil-sunb38.cs.uiuc.edu>,
> David J. Greenberger <gren...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> >That to-be-built shuttle bus has already been built, and is free (which
> >its AirTrain replacement won't be, or so I've heard).
>
> And it completly sucks. It's one damned shuttle bus for the parking
> lot and half of the terminals (another bus hits the lot and the other
> half of the terminals). Service is infrequent in the extreme, and the
> route is so long that to get to one's flight can take 30 minutes!
> They've managed to make a reasonably transit-accessible airport
> totally awful by mis-routing and mis-scheduling the buses to such an
> extent that it seems deliberate.
No argument here. But the AirTrain from Howard Beach will cost $5, or
so I gather from reports in this newsgroup. So the widely advertised
subway route to JFK will undergo a 333% price hike. One would hope
service is improved 333%! (Yes, I do realize there are standard bus
routes to the airport that will still cost the standard fare -- assuming
the AirTrain folks don't kick them out.)
Peter Rosa
Michael Hamm wrote:
>
> What's wrong with the A train to JFK and a to-be-built shuttle
> (bus/train/monorail/whatever) from the station directly to the terminals?
terminals to the Howard Beach/JFK stop. While that's better than no
train at all, it is less than optimal because the A train (1) takes a
long time to get into Midtown and (2) has no facilities for luggage. In
addition, going from Manhattan to the airport via that route adds the
Lefferts Boulevard complication (no matter how well signed, some airport
travelers are bound to wonder why the conductor's annoucing "last stop"
and the station signs read Lefferts Boulevard).
Thor Lancelot Simon
>
>> David J. Greenberger <gren...@uiuc.edu> wrote, in part:
>> >> What's wrong with the A train to JFK and a to-be-built shuttle
>> >> (bus/train/monorail/whatever) from the station directly to the
>> >> terminals?
>> >
>>
>> made to this group in the past. I meant a direct line from platform to
>> each terminal.
>
>The long, stair-laden walk is only on the Rockaway-bound side. The
>Manhattan-bound platform is adjacent to the bus stop.
Um, I'd just like to point out that I'm usually in a lot more of a hurry
when I'm going *to* catch a flight than when coming *from* getting off
one.
David Ng
Currently, as far as I know, the A trains run local in Brooklyn late nights and weekends.
Peter Rosa <PR...@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:39501C...@prodigy.net...
>
> Michael Hamm wrote:
> >
> > What's wrong with the A train to JFK and a to-be-built shuttle
> > (bus/train/monorail/whatever) from the station directly to the terminals?
>
Daniel Salomon
over an hour from the terminal to the subway station.
-Dan
David J. Greenberger <gren...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
: No argument here. But the AirTrain from Howard Beach will cost $5, or
Michael Hamm
>> (bus/train/monorail/whatever) from the station directly to the
>> terminals?
>
... past two sets of steps from the plat, if we are to believe posts made
to this group in the past. I meant a direct line from platform to each
terminal.
Michael Hamm | NB: This e-mail address will be active
David J. Greenberger
> David J. Greenberger <gren...@uiuc.edu> wrote, in part:
> >> What's wrong with the A train to JFK and a to-be-built shuttle
> >> (bus/train/monorail/whatever) from the station directly to the
> >> terminals?
> >
> > That to-be-built shuttle bus has already been built, and is
>
> ... past two sets of steps from the plat, if we are to believe posts
> made to this group in the past. I meant a direct line from platform to
> each terminal.
The long, stair-laden walk is only on the Rockaway-bound side. The
Manhattan-bound platform is adjacent to the bus stop.
Will the AirTrain really pick up passengers directly from the
Rockaway-bound platform? That seems unlikely to me.
David J. Greenberger
> In addition, going from Manhattan to the airport via that route adds
> the Lefferts Boulevard complication (no matter how well signed, some
> airport travelers are bound to wonder why the conductor's annoucing
> "last stop" and the station signs read Lefferts Boulevard).
Unless NYCT gives in eventually and sends C trains to Lefferts and A
trains to the Rockaways.
David J. Greenberger
> In article <s0t1z1r...@csil-sunb38.cs.uiuc.edu>,
> David J. Greenberger <gren...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >Michael Hamm <msh...@nyu.edu> writes:
> >
> >> David J. Greenberger <gren...@uiuc.edu> wrote, in part:
> >> >> What's wrong with the A train to JFK and a to-be-built shuttle
> >> >> (bus/train/monorail/whatever) from the station directly to the
> >> >> terminals?
> >> >
> >> > That to-be-built shuttle bus has already been built, and is
> >>
> >> ... past two sets of steps from the plat, if we are to believe posts
> >> made to this group in the past. I meant a direct line from platform to
> >> each terminal.
> >
> >The long, stair-laden walk is only on the Rockaway-bound side. The
> >Manhattan-bound platform is adjacent to the bus stop.
>
> Um, I'd just like to point out that I'm usually in a lot more of a
> hurry when I'm going *to* catch a flight than when coming *from*
> getting off one.
Sorry, there's not much I can do about the fact that the A train runs
west of JFK.
Alexander Nobler Cohen
> : The LIRR does still have service. I think there's a long gap around 3am,
> : but otherwise there are at least a couple trains each hour running between
> : Manhattan/Brooklyn and Jamaica all night long. Not sure that anyone will
> : be using Airtrain to Jamaica at that hour anyway, though.
But the Airtrain FROM Jamaica, yes. Many airport employee shifts begin
around 4:00 am (getting the planes ready for the early am flights, etc.)
Alex
Peter Schleifer
>
> Will the AirTrain really pick up passengers directly from the
> Rockaway-bound platform? That seems unlikely to me.
The images I have seen look like the Airtrain tracks will be above and
perpendicular to the A tracks - passengers will take an elevator or
escalator to/from the subway both ways.
--
Peter Schleifer
"Ignorance is easy and you get it for free"
NEW HAVEN U25B
transfer to the Q-10 to the airport? With Metrocard there is not additional
fare
JR
> >
> > >That to-be-built shuttle bus has already been built, and is free (which
> > >its AirTrain replacement won't be, or so I've heard).
> >
> > And it completly sucks. It's one damned shuttle bus for the parking
> > lot and half of the terminals (another bus hits the lot and the other
> > half of the terminals). Service is infrequent in the extreme, and the
> > route is so long that to get to one's flight can take 30 minutes!
> > They've managed to make a reasonably transit-accessible airport
> > totally awful by mis-routing and mis-scheduling the buses to such an
> > extent that it seems deliberate.
>
> so I gather from reports in this newsgroup. So the widely advertised
> subway route to JFK will undergo a 333% price hike. One would hope
> routes to the airport that will still cost the standard fare -- assuming
> the AirTrain folks don't kick them out.)
> David J. Greenberger
> Department of Computer Science, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
>
>
>
> Deja.com: Before you buy.
> http://www.deja.com/
> * To modify or remove your subscription, go to
> http://www.deja.com/edit_sub.xp?group=nyc.transit
> * Read this thread at
>
http://www.deja.com/thread/%3Cs0tk8fjkj79.fsf%40csil-sunb38.cs.uiuc.edu%3E
Peter Schleifer
>
> Currently, as far as I know, the A trains run local in Brooklyn late nights and weekends.
The A runs express on weekends. It is local only late nights.
Peter Rosa
David J. Greenberger wrote:
>
> Peter Rosa <PR...@prodigy.net> writes:
>
> > In addition, going from Manhattan to the airport via that route adds
> > the Lefferts Boulevard complication (no matter how well signed, some
> > airport travelers are bound to wonder why the conductor's annoucing
> > "last stop" and the station signs read Lefferts Boulevard).
>
> Unless NYCT gives in eventually and sends C trains to Lefferts and A
> trains to the Rockaways.
Who knows, maybe the opening of the Airtrain link will be enough to get
this change accomplished.
Peter Rosa
kenneth lin wrote:
>
>
> This is especially true for overseas tourists who may be unfamiliar with
> English or TA PA-speak.
Which, of course, are two completely unrelated languages.
kenneth lin
"Peter Schleifer" <psch...@speakeasy.org> wrote in message
news:39509782...@speakeasy.org...
> "David J. Greenberger" wrote:
> >
> > Will the AirTrain really pick up passengers directly from the
> > Rockaway-bound platform? That seems unlikely to me.
>
> The images I have seen look like the Airtrain tracks will be above and
> perpendicular to the A tracks - passengers will take an elevator or
> escalator to/from the subway both ways.
Technically, the AirTrain tracks will end east of the Rockaway Line, but
there will be a very tall mezzanine built over both the north and southbound
tracks at Howard Beach.
There will be direct connections to both subway platforms from this
mezzanine.
Alas, an opportunity was missed to build the AirTrain station parallel to
the subway tracks-- either at ground level or directly over it. Such an
arrangement would facilitate AirTrain to subway transfers-- cross platform
transfers for the ground level option, a simple level change for the "over"
option. Either method would reduce the walking distance between AirTrain
and the subway.
Kenneth Lin
kenneth lin
news:39501C...@prodigy.net...
> Airtrain's first segment indeed will involve a shuttle train from the
> terminals to the Howard Beach/JFK stop. While that's better than no
> train at all, it is less than optimal because the A train (1) takes a
> long time to get into Midtown and (2) has no facilities for luggage. In
> addition, going from Manhattan to the airport via that route adds the
> Lefferts Boulevard complication (no matter how well signed, some airport
> travelers are bound to wonder why the conductor's annoucing "last stop"
> and the station signs read Lefferts Boulevard).
This is especially true for overseas tourists who may be unfamiliar with
English or TA PA-speak.
I've always thought that Lefferts Blvd "A" trains should be given a
different route designation to avoid confusion with Rockaway "A" trains.
The letter "K" is not currently in use, and features a blue bullet.
Kenneth Lin
kenneth lin
"NEW HAVEN U25B" <ERIE-LA...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:000701bfdbdb$046657c0$1016fe3f@ast...
> Whats the matter with taking the A to Lefretts or E,F to Union Turnpike
and
> transfer to the Q-10 to the airport? With Metrocard there is not
additional
> fare
1. Q-10 is a slow ride from Union Turnpike to JFK, taking at least 35-45
minutes. More during peak periods, slightly less during late night hours.
2. It is uncomfortable and crowded during peak hours. Even carrying a
simple carry-on bag is uncomfortable with peak period congestion.
3. Q-10 service always seems to operate at irregular headways, never
adhering to scheduled departure times.
But if you're a price sensitive traveler, go for it.
Kenneth Lin
james...@my-deja.com
Could we effectively advocate the provision of ramps (like those at the
Manhattan 42 street station of that A line), which would avoid those
steps, satisfy the ADA and supplement the planned new
elevators/escalators? There is no need to wait for the completion of
AirTrain to implement such improvements; they are years over due.
In article <iIe45.16748$Xx5.9...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
rein...@world.std.com
james...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Schlepping luggage up and down those cross over steps is a BIG bummer.
> Could we effectively advocate the provision of ramps (like those at the
> Manhattan 42 street station of that A line), which would avoid those
> steps, satisfy the ADA and supplement the planned new
> elevators/escalators? There is no need to wait for the completion of
> AirTrain to implement such improvements; they are years over due.
Judging from the renderings at the panynj.com web site, there will be
just one level change from either Howard Beach A train platform to the
Airtrain platform. Elevators and wide escalators will be provided to make
that transistion. A ramp would have to be about 200 feet long. (ADA
specifies one foot of ramp per inch of height plus horizontal stretchs
where the ramp turns.) I'll take the elevator or escalator, thanks.
Schlepping is part of air travel these days. That's why bags with wheels
are so popular. The Airtrain stations seem to be at least as well
designed as most airport terminals. The subway station at the start and
end of the journey will be more of a problem.
Arnold Reinhold
james...@my-deja.com
> Judging from the renderings at the panynj.com web site, there will be
> just one level change from either Howard Beach A train platform to the
> Airtrain platform. Elevators and wide escalators will be provided to
make that transistion. A ramp would have to be about 200 feet long. (ADA
> specifies one foot of ramp per inch of height plus horizontal stretchs
> where the ramp turns.) I'll take the elevator or escalator, thanks.
>
> Schlepping is part of air travel these days. That's why bags with
wheels are so popular. The Airtrain stations seem to be at least as well
> designed as most airport terminals. The subway station at the start
and end of the journey will be more of a problem.
>
> Arnold Reinhold
> james...@my-deja.com previously wrote in article
8j981i$gbo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
:
Schlepping luggage up and down those cross over steps is a BIG bummer.
Could we effectively advocate the provision of ramps (like those at the
Manhattan 42 street station of that A line), which would avoid those
steps, satisfy the ADA and supplement the planned new
elevators/escalators? There is no need to wait for the completion of
AirTrain to implement such improvements; they are years over due.
>
The ramps at Manhattan 42 street station are squared spirals, which
makes their longest dimension footprints much less than 200 feet.
Ramps offer their greatest advantage to travelers with wheeled luggage.
Will the AirTrain really require payment of a cash fare, unlike the
comparable PA inter-terminal system at EWR?