Jim Dwyer Column on 2nd Av Subway Scam

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Joe Schmidt

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Sep 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/30/99
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http://www.mostnewyork.com/1999-09-30/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-42251.asp

Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan.
As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off.


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Before you buy.

Paul Matus

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Sep 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/30/99
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Joe Schmidt <JoeyN...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7t01c7$6gb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> http://www.mostnewyork.com/1999-09-30/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-42251.asp
>
> Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan.
> As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off.

Jim starts by saying that the story is that the 2nd Avenue el ws torn down
in 1940 and the scrap metal was sold to Japan to be used for anti-U.S.
ammunition.

The story was about the 6th Avenue el.

I hope he has taken more care in crafting the rest of his column.

Mark Mentovai

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Sep 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/30/99
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Stephen Bauman wrote in nyc.transit:
>Dwyer was off by 2 years and 4 avenue blocks. How far off do you
>predict the "completion" of this "2nd Ave Subway" will be?

He also said that what he calls the "Pataki-Giuliani" version will run
from 125th Street to 72nd Street. The current plan is to run it to
63rd. There go another nine blocks...

He has a point in that the proposed line gives New York the shaft, but
he really needs to have his facts checked.

Mark

Stephen Bauman

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Oct 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/1/99
to Paul Matus
Dwyer was off by 2 years and 4 avenue blocks. How far off do you
predict the "completion" of this "2nd Ave Subway" will be?

Cap'n Bludd

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Oct 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/1/99
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Mark Mentovai <ne...@mentovai.com> wrote:

>Stephen Bauman wrote in nyc.transit:

>>Dwyer was off by 2 years and 4 avenue blocks. How far off do you
>>predict the "completion" of this "2nd Ave Subway" will be?
>

>He also said that what he calls the "Pataki-Giuliani" version will run
>from 125th Street to 72nd Street. The current plan is to run it to
>63rd. There go another nine blocks...

Actually he's right because the last 2nd ave stop is 72nd. The 63rd
St stop is at Lex.


>
>He has a point in that the proposed line gives New York the shaft, but
>he really needs to have his facts checked.
>
>Mark


Cap'n Bludd C/r C/f
cpnb...@pipeline.com
capn...@aol.com
http://www.pipeline.com/~cpnbludd

The probability of someone watching you is directly
proportional to the stupidity of your actions....


Paul Matus

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Oct 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/1/99
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Well, I don't know how far off it will be before we see a train running
under 2nd Avenue.

But I've been watching TA, NYC and NYS politics for decades and I've seen a
lot of groups and politicians fight "the good fight" demanding this or that
or the other "and nothing less."

What we've actually gotten is close to nothing. I think some politicians
would rather say "we stopped those b*st*rds" than see anything built.

Almost 30 years ago the MTA published a laundry list of new lines (including
the full 2nd Ave. subway) which they insisted would get built despite the
fact that the voters finally got sick of passing multi-BILLION dollar bond
issues which never seemed to result in the building of promised transit.
With the list were completion dates ... we were cautioned that some
low-priority projects might not get completed until the mid-1990's.

So I say: let's shift gears. Put full backing behind the Broadway-2nd Avenue
Subway. Say, "OK, you say you'll build this." Do it. NOW.

Then we can militate for extensions and additions.

Stephen Bauman <SBa...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:37F3CD24...@worldnet.att.net...


> Dwyer was off by 2 years and 4 avenue blocks. How far off do you
> predict the "completion" of this "2nd Ave Subway" will be?
>
>

Paul Matus

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Oct 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/1/99
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Mark Mentovai <ne...@mentovai.com> wrote in message
news:300919992257171058%ne...@mentovai.com...

> Stephen Bauman wrote in nyc.transit:
> >Dwyer was off by 2 years and 4 avenue blocks. How far off do you
> >predict the "completion" of this "2nd Ave Subway" will be?
>
> He also said that what he calls the "Pataki-Giuliani" version will run
> from 125th Street to 72nd Street. The current plan is to run it to
> 63rd. There go another nine blocks...

I think he got that from the fact that the _stations_ will be from 125th to
72nd--i.e., the southernmost 2nd Avenue station will be at 72nd St.

> He has a point in that the proposed line gives New York the shaft, but
> he really needs to have his facts checked.

It's more than we have now.

Some people seem to get pleasure out of whining about being shafted. I find
it cold comfort.


Paul Matus

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Oct 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/1/99
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Cap'n Bludd <cpnb...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:37f69040...@news.pipeline.com...

> Mark Mentovai <ne...@mentovai.com> wrote:
>
> >Stephen Bauman wrote in nyc.transit:
> >>Dwyer was off by 2 years and 4 avenue blocks. How far off do you
> >>predict the "completion" of this "2nd Ave Subway" will be?
> >
> >He also said that what he calls the "Pataki-Giuliani" version will run
> >from 125th Street to 72nd Street. The current plan is to run it to
> >63rd. There go another nine blocks...
>
> Actually he's right because the last 2nd ave stop is 72nd. The 63rd
> St stop is at Lex.

He does give the distinct impression the _line_ will run from 125th to 72nd.
Maybe he just expressed it carelessly.


Peter Rosa

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Oct 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/1/99
to
Paul Matus wrote:
>
> Well, I don't know how far off it will be before we see a train running
> under 2nd Avenue.
>
> But I've been watching TA, NYC and NYS politics for decades and I've seen a
> lot of groups and politicians fight "the good fight" demanding this or that
> or the other "and nothing less."

>
> So I say: let's shift gears. Put full backing behind the Broadway-2nd Avenue
> Subway. Say, "OK, you say you'll build this." Do it. NOW.
>
> Then we can militate for extensions and additions.

I agree with you. If people see that _something_ is actually getting
built, real shoveling-the-dirt work rather than shuffling-the-paper
work, a lot of (so far justified) cynicism will fade away and we'll see
plenty of support for more work.

--
Peter Rosa
PR...@prodigy.net
pros...@yahoo.com
R32...@aol.com
ULN...@prodigy.com

Hank Eisenstein

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Oct 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/2/99
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I think it's better to build the 'Stubway' now. As soon as a shovel is
turned, the pressure from the community with force them to continue building
south. While construction is underway on segment 1, the planning and impact
statments can be done for segment 2. Nothing wrong with opening in stages,
ala WMATA.
-Hank

--
http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon Amateur Photographer
ni...@quuxuum.org Fire-Emergency Services
Hank Eisenstein Transit-NY Metro
Staten Island, NY AOL IM: Hank21k ICQ UIN# 1579309
Let's Go Mets!!
Peter Rosa <PR...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:37F572...@prodigy.net...

JOHN PAZMINO

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Oct 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/2/99
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PM> From: "Paul Matus" <pma...@msn.com>
PM> Subject: Re: Jim Dwyer Column on 2nd Av Subway Scam
PM> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:30:29 GMT
PM> Organization: Optimum Online
PM> >
PM> > Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan.
PM> > As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off.
PM>
PM> Jim starts by saying that the story is that the 2nd Avenue el ws torn down
PM> in 1940 and the scrap metal was sold to Japan to be used for anti-U.S.
PM> ammunition.
PM>
PM> The story was about the 6th Avenue el.
PM>
PM> I hope he has taken more care in crafting the rest of his column.

I always wondered how the steel was positively traced from the 6th
Avenue el to Japan and back to us as bombs. Afdter all, the US had a
vigorous trade with Japan all thru the prewar era.
But for Dwyer's piece harped on the inequity between City and
suburban funding and attention. What caught my eye was the map next to
his article,, apparently not part of it. This showed the alignment of
the 'new' 2nd Av line. It's the utter same as the northern leg of the
Rockefeller plan with one subtile exception.
The line now indexes to Lexington Av for a side-by-side (or
over-under) transfer with the Lexingron Av line.
There is still no stop at/near 116th St -- there's that long
K-&-half run from 106th St to 125th St, bypassing all of East Harlem.
There is still no station in the upper 70s.
These are features of the Rockefeller plan which were roundly
debinked in the 1070s. Why are they kept in the face of soaring pop
increase and commuter increase from the Bronx? A parallel article in
the same paper notes that the density of the UES is now about
60,000/Km2 -- equal to that of 3rd world cities like Calcutta, Cairo,
Jakarta. It excedes Istanbul (I was surprised) which I visited this
summer for the solar eclipse! Yet there are just 3 stations in UES, 1
for el Barrio, and 1 for Harlem central.
The hoopla from the MTA stresses the use of the express tracks in
the BMT Broadway line. It is completely silent on ewhat goes on in 2nd
Avenue. Guess what? The effing plan still posits a two-track road.
That's it.
If you live or fabor the Bronx you should be very worried. There
is no committment to push the 2nd Avenue line into the Bronx at all.
Note carefully the new location of that 125th St station. By putting
it next to the green line it is far too easy to presume that riders
from the Bronx will transfer to the 2nd Avenue line, so there's no
need to have that line extend farther north.
This placement of the north end of the 2nd Avenue line actually
complicates the Rockefeller plan to merge it into the Pelham and Dire
Av lines. If anything, there may be a one-stop extension to 149th &
Grand Concourse and that's it for the rest of the 21st century.

---
þ RoseReader 2.52á P005004

m greene

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Oct 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/2/99
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"Paul Matus" <pma...@msn.com> wrote:


>Joe Schmidt <JoeyN...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:7t01c7$6gb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> http://www.mostnewyork.com/1999-09-30/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-42251.asp
>>

>> Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan.

>> As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off.

>Jim starts by saying that the story is that the 2nd Avenue el ws torn down


>in 1940 and the scrap metal was sold to Japan to be used for anti-U.S.

>ammunition.

>The story was about the 6th Avenue el.

The 2nd Avenue El didn't go all at once. The section north of 59th
Street was closed in 1940, but the rest lasted until 1942.
If I recall correctly, the Japanese interests that bought the scrap
steel from both the 6th Avenue El and the Delaware Avenue El in
Philadelphia used dummy companies, ostensibly based in West Coast
cities, to obtain the scrap metal. It was discovered later when
someone or some group decided to check out the "companies", only to
discover that the firms did not exist, and the scrap was going to
Japan.

Later

Michael T. Greene

danny burstein

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Oct 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/2/99
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In <9oxJ3.5567$GV2.8...@news.optonline.net> "Paul Matus" <pma...@msn.com> writes:
>>
>> I always wondered how the steel was positively traced from the 6th
>> Avenue el to Japan and back to us as bombs. Afdter all, the US had a
>> vigorous trade with Japan all thru the prewar era.

The urban legend (which I've NEVER seen any proof of) is that bomb
fragments had stampings or tags in them saying things like "Patterson
Poundings" or "Ironbound Ironworks".

danny "remember, that's back in the days when we had steel and iron
foundries in this country" burstein
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Paul Matus

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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JOHN PAZMINO <john.p...@relaynet.org> wrote in message
news:90F4471.0533...@relaynet.org...

> PM> From: "Paul Matus" <pma...@msn.com>
> PM> Subject: Re: Jim Dwyer Column on 2nd Av Subway Scam
> PM> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:30:29 GMT
> PM> Organization: Optimum Online
> PM> >
> PM> > Jim Dwyer exposes the scam that's the new budget plan.
> PM> > As a resident of 2nd Avenue, this article really pisses me off.
> PM>
> PM> Jim starts by saying that the story is that the 2nd Avenue el ws torn
down

> PM> in 1940 and the scrap metal was sold to Japan to be used for anti-U.S.
> PM> ammunition.
> PM>
> PM> The story was about the 6th Avenue el.
> PM>
> PM> I hope he has taken more care in crafting the rest of his column.
>
> I always wondered how the steel was positively traced from the 6th
> Avenue el to Japan and back to us as bombs. Afdter all, the US had a
> vigorous trade with Japan all thru the prewar era.

The facts of the story appear to be this:

IIRC, the popular phrase was something like "We sold the 6th Avenue el to
Japan, and they gave it back to us at Pearl Harbor."

The steel from the 6th Avenue el was sold, either directly to Japan, or to
Japan through a broker.

In the context of the pre-War era, this was not such a big deal. Japan was
almost totally dependent on imported steel for its economy, which included
its developing war machine. Japan was especially dependent on the U.S. for
steel.

As Japan's militarism became more intense (or more difficult to ignore in
the spirit of business-as-usual) there was pressure to embargo steel
shipments to Japan, much as today many call for embargoing the sale of
supplies or equipment with military use to countries deemed hostile or
war-mongering.

The U.S. did embargo steel to Japan, which Japan took to be a hostile
action, since the U.S. was a neutral nation at the time. Some revisionist
historians today cite the embargo as a measure which "forced" Japan to
attack the U.S. at Pearl Harbor.

So, insofar as steel sold by the U.S. to Japan helped its war effort, it is
constructively true that "we got the 6th Avenue el back at Pearl Harbor."
But I've never seen any evidence that the _actual_ steel from the el was
used in those munitions.


Paul Matus

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:7t6arm$glb$1...@panix.com...

> In <9oxJ3.5567$GV2.8...@news.optonline.net> "Paul Matus"
<pma...@msn.com> writes:
> >>
> >> I always wondered how the steel was positively traced from the 6th
> >> Avenue el to Japan and back to us as bombs. Afdter all, the US had a
> >> vigorous trade with Japan all thru the prewar era.
>
> The urban legend (which I've NEVER seen any proof of) is that bomb
> fragments had stampings or tags in them saying things like "Patterson
> Poundings" or "Ironbound Ironworks".

Talk about urban legends!

I would imagine that any scrap sold to Japan was completely melted down and
re-smelted before it was made into whatever.

It's true that aluminum from the BMT Green Hornet probably ended up in
military aircraft in WWII, but I would be more than amazed if someone found
a Pullman-Standard builder's plate in one of those airplanes.


Miky

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Oct 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/10/99
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Prodigy Classic (abc...@prodigy.com) was killed last week.
Requescat in Pace

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