Grand Central water fountains; bottled water
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Terminal.
In this day and age where everyone buys expensive bottled water and
schleps it around, the reporter was surprised to find there are clean,
nice tasting, and free water fountains to use.
I've used them myself.
IMHO, buying bottled water is foolish. The water out of most home
faucets is at least just as good, maybe even better than bottled
water. The plastic container is very wasteful and imparts a lousy
taste to the water. (Good water used to be served in metal pitchers
in glasses).
Most public buildings have drinking fountains like GCT, and the water
is chilled.
I think it's almost a style fad for people to have their water bottle
and drink from it.
Stephen Sprunk
> The NYT had an article on the water fountains in Grand Central
> Terminal.
A link would be nice.
> IMHO, buying bottled water is foolish. The water out of most home
> faucets is at least just as good, maybe even better than bottled
> water.
That completely depends on the city (or whoever supplies the tap water
in a given location), the condition of the building's pipes, whether
you've added the appropriate softeners and filters, etc.
Yes, it's often true, particularly in suburbs with newer (plastic pipe
rather than metal pipe) water systems. My HS environmental science
class found the tap water where we lived had less than half the
pollutants that were in the bottled water we tested. That often isn't
true in older major cities, though.
> The plastic container is very wasteful
That depends on how many times you refill them and/or whether you
recycle them when done.
I get several dozen uses out of each bottle before the plastic starts to
fail and I have to replace them. That's better than any other
"consumable" product I use.
> and imparts a lousy taste to the water.
So do plastic or metal cups, aluminum cans, etc. Still, most of us have
grown up with those influences being a "natural" part of the taste of
what we're drinking. In fact, the taste _without_ that influence is
often considered "strange".
> (Good water used to be served in metal pitchers in glasses).
I've never seen a metal pitcher in a glass ;)
Yes, most things _do_ taste better in glass; stainless steel isn't as
bad as plastic (or other metals), but it still has a minor influence.
However, glass is fragile and dangerous, particularly anywhere there are
hard floors. Many, many jurisdictions have banned glass containers in
public places due to the safety hazards. It's also more expensive,
which is why many restaurants have switched to plastic--even beer mugs.
> Most public buildings have drinking fountains like GCT, and the water
> is chilled.
>
> I think it's almost a style fad for people to have their water bottle
> and drink from it.
Having something you can seal and carry around is more convenient than
hunting for a water fountain every time you're thirsty.
While some of it may be a fad, it's healthier to carry around a bottle
of water than a cup of coffee or bottle of soda everywhere one goes, and
I have a hard time arguing against "fads" that actually do work.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Steven M. O'Neill
>hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> The NYT had an article on the water fountains in Grand Central
>> Terminal.
>
>A link would be nice.
http://www.google.com/search?q=water%20fountains%20grand%20central&btnI=lucky
--
Steven O'Neill ste...@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> > The NYT had an article on the water fountains in Grand Central
> > Terminal.
>
> A link would be nice.
Sorry about that. Here is the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/nyregion/17bigcity.html?ref=nyregion
Jimmy
> I think it's almost a style fad for people to have their water bottle
> and drink from it.
In certain communities, people typically use a Nalgene or other
reusable water bottle. Nalgene originally made lab equipment; then
hikers discovered their bottles, and now they're common for day-to-day
use.
I often carry one around, and for long bus or train trips it's almost
essential.
Jimmy
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
I should have clarified my remarks to say 'commercial bottled water',
as opposed to merely a water bottle. I carry a water bottle, but I
fill it up from the tap and refill at fountains like the one in GCT.
You're correct that a water bottle is essential on trips.
Indeed, I just bought a new bottle on sale at the NYTM gift shop.
Metal, nice top. (It said stainless steel but I think it's really
aluminum. Has Dashing Dan logo.)
At one time it was common for railroad coaches to have a water
fountain with paper cups in addition to a restroom. At least the MTA
still provides restrooms on its trains.
Philip Nasadowski
<ddc7263f-b452-4f82...@g27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> The water out of most home
> faucets is at least just as good, maybe even better than bottled
> water.
The nasty secret of the bottled water industry is that most bottled
water comes from municipal sources anyway. Contrary to what the bottled
water industry tells you, municipal water in the US is perfectly safe.
I'm involved with a project right now to install radium removal on a few
wells in southern NJ. They're at somewhat under the state's limit,
which is very low (I think NJ's is 1/10th the EPA's). As the radiation
safety consultant for water company puts it, you'd have to basically
swim in the stuff for 70 years before it could theoretically affect you.
But the state says it's gotta be removed. Try siting one of those
filtration plants, BTW. The second the R word gets mentioned, the
protest lines form. Fuck, I've dunk the water right from the wellhead a
few times, it's NOT going to kill you...
The only 1/2 legit excuse I ever heard for drinking bottled water is
that NYC's water quite literally isn't Kosher. I know a firm that's
been making a killing installing water filters in heavily Jewish areas
in NYC...
danny burstein
>> water.
Having used those Grand Central drinking fountains in the past,
they used to... have two serious problems.
a: they were often broken
b: since there was 200 hundred (complete guess) feet of
ancient, 1910 or so pipe... between the faucet and
the water supply, you did NOT want to be the first
person drinking from it after it had "sat" for a few
hours. Or overnight.
I'd hate to think what sort of crud was there for the
drinking Way Back. (Pipes back then could be made with
all sorts of things you didn't want in your water...)
It sounds like they've replaced the piping with clean
copper... and that they're on top of the general maintenance
these days.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Miles Bader
> The only 1/2 legit excuse I ever heard for drinking bottled water is
> that NYC's water quite literally isn't Kosher.
I personally buy bottled water not because I like the water any better
(although to some degree, it's nice to have a choice, since the flavor
can vary quite a bit), but simply because it's nice to have a bottle to
sip slowly over time, and I'm too lazy/shortsighted/etc to bring along
my own bottle from home...
My impression is that many people have similar reasons.
-Miles
--
Education, n. That which discloses to the wise and disguises from the foolish
their lack of understanding.
Slim
The water bottle has become a freakin' fashion accessory.
NYC tap is the best on earth.
--
"A nickel isn't worth a dime today." - Y. Berra
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> The only 1/2 legit excuse I ever heard for drinking bottled water is
> that NYC's water quite literally isn't Kosher. I know a firm that's
> been making a killing installing water filters in heavily Jewish areas
> in NYC...
Never heard that. Clean water, by being _clean_, is Kosher. I can't
imagine how clean water could be 'contaminated' with non-Kosher
elements and still be considered 'clean'. If one uses water say to
cook pork, ham, or bacon, one does not drink the water after using it
to wash off the meat.
Bolwerk
I didn't even know drinks really were subjected to koshering rules, but
one possibility is the fluoride added makes it impure?
(Almost pointless anecdote: if you go to the Turkey's Nest on N12 &
Bedford in Williamsburg, you'll find rather the curious situation of
Hassidic Jews and local hipsters are drinking together and watching sports.)
danny burstein
>Never heard that. Clean water, by being _clean_, is Kosher. I can't
>imagine how clean water could be 'contaminated' with non-Kosher
>elements and still be considered 'clean'.
Keep in mind that NYC's water supply is (for the most part) unfltered.
The problem for the kashrut obsessed is that there are
teensy creature in it.
Quoting a NY Times clip [a]:
"These rabbis have recently discovered that there are
tiny creatures, called copepods, in the unfiltered water
that streams into the city from upstate. These tiny
organisms are harmless. But they are crustaceans. And
crustaceans are not considered kosher...."
fortunately for those so inclined, any basic ordinary
filter works for these. Even paper "coffee" filters.
[a] http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/01/nyregion/01water.html
(it's been five years already since this story broke? *whew*)
:wq
rsh...@gmail.com
so govt CAN do something right
one of the benefits of NYC was "free" water for years
Jimmy
> "These rabbis have recently discovered that there are
> tiny creatures, called copepods, in the unfiltered water
> that streams into the city from upstate. These tiny
> organisms are harmless. But they are crustaceans. And
> crustaceans are not considered kosher...."
>
> fortunately for those so inclined, any basic ordinary
> filter works for these. Even paper "coffee" filters.
>
> [a]http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/01/nyregion/01water.html
The part of this issue I never understood is why the article says you
need a microscope to see them, but also says they're one millimeter
long. If a 1 mm crustacean were swimming in my glass of water, I'd
sure notice it without any microscope.
Jimmy
Stephen Sprunk
The dimension is misleading. Over half the length is in their antennae,
and their body shell is so thin they're translucent. They're invisible
in water without magnification, no matter how good your vision is.
Philip Nasadowski
Bolwerk <bol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't even know drinks really were subjected to koshering rules, but
> one possibility is the fluoride added makes it impure?
NYC doesn't add fluoride.
danny burstein
NYC's been adding fluoride for 44 years:
"On Oct. 1, 1965, the newspaper published a 44-word article
reporting that "fluoridation of New York's water supply, a matter
of bitter debate for several years, began quietly today.."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/health/17first.html
obtransit: hydrofluoric acid is used for etching
the subway glass windows in a form of graffitti.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> "These rabbis have recently discovered that there are
> tiny creatures, called copepods, in the unfiltered water
> that streams into the city from upstate. These tiny
> organisms are harmless. But they are crustaceans. And
> crustaceans are not considered kosher...."
Moving back, sort of, to transportation, I've heard that the rabbis
determined that automatic all-stop elevators used on the sabbath (they
required no human action to work) were no longer acceptable.
Apparently on the sabbath one isn't permitted to turn anything on or
off, but if the device is on a timer or automated it's ok, at least
until now.
I wonder if riding in a fully automated train would be ok, or is the
acting of 'riding' not allowed on the sabbath?
Where's Peter? He knows all this stuff.
Philip Nasadowski
danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> In <nasadowsk-A775D...@news.optonline.net> Philip Nasadowski
> <nasa...@usermale.com> writes:
>
> >In article <SomdneJ1WsZbvZnW...@earthlink.com>,
> > Bolwerk <bol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I didn't even know drinks really were subjected to koshering rules, but
> >> one possibility is the fluoride added makes it impure?
>
> >NYC doesn't add fluoride.
>
> NYC's been adding fluoride for 44 years:
>
Interesting, I thought they didn't for some reason. I know that it's
not very common on Long island (Hempstead water doesn't, among others),
and it's even less common in NJ
Peter T. Daniels
When I was invited to a conference in Tel Aviv in 1999, I was appalled
by the automatic elevators. I'm glad they've finally come to their
senses (or at least de-hypocritized the system to this extent). I was
also appalled that when I got a glimpse of the Western Wall, we (our
local host and my Catholic colleague) were accosted by an ultra-
orthodox-dressed beggar -- who begged his few coins in the Sacred
Language rather than Yiddish. (Only my Catholic friend succumbed.)
As a little girl, my mother was corrupted by observant neighbors into
being a Sabbath "goy" who turned on their lights for a nickel -- even
though her family was (non-observant) Jewish.
Bolwerk
I'd be rather surprised to learn a municipality didn't do it.
But, I'm pretty sure you can even taste it in NYC.
Miles Bader
> The dimension is misleading. Over half the length is in their antennae,
> and their body shell is so thin they're translucent. They're invisible
> in water without magnification, no matter how good your vision is.
So probably not enough mass to be particularly nutritious?
-Miles
--
Resign, v. A good thing to do when you are going to be kicked out.
Bolwerk
> Stephen Sprunk <ste...@sprunk.org> writes:
>> The dimension is misleading. Over half the length is in their antennae,
>> and their body shell is so thin they're translucent. They're invisible
>> in water without magnification, no matter how good your vision is.
>
> So probably not enough mass to be particularly nutritious?
It would be hilarious if they have them in Israel (Yahweh, you prankster
you!).
Copepods are a group of small crustaceans found in the sea and
nearly every freshwater habitat. Many species are planktonic
(drifting in sea waters), but more are benthic (living on the
ocean floor), and some continental species may live in
limno-terrestrial habitats and other wet terrestrial places,
such as swamps, under leaf fall in wet forests, bogs, springs,
ephemeral ponds and puddles, damp moss, or water-filled recesses
(phytotelmata) of plants such as bromeliads and pitcher plants.
Many live underground in marine and freshwater caves, sinkholes,
or stream beds. Copepods are sometimes used as bioindicators
(see particle (ecology)).
Stephen Sprunk
> Stephen Sprunk <ste...@sprunk.org> writes:
>> The dimension is misleading. Over half the length is in their antennae,
>> and their body shell is so thin they're translucent. They're invisible
>> in water without magnification, no matter how good your vision is.
>
> So probably not enough mass to be particularly nutritious?
A single one? It'd be negligible. By weight? Probably as nutritious
as any other crustacean eaten whole (including shell, antennae, etc.).
There's no mention of the concentration, though, which makes it
difficult to determine how many micrograms of the little things you'd
consume in an average year. If people have just now noticed them, I
suspect it's low enough that the total nutritional value is probably
less than one calorie per year from typical water consumption, i.e.
completely irrelevant.
Jimmy
> Moving back, sort of, to transportation, I've heard that the rabbis
> determined that automatic all-stop elevators used on the sabbath (they
> required no human action to work) were no longer acceptable.
> Apparently on the sabbath one isn't permitted to turn anything on or
> off, but if the device is on a timer or automated it's ok, at least
> until now.
One big-name rabbi in Israel issued a decree, but not much has changed
in the U.S. yet. The issue is modern elevator circuitry that counts
people or measures weight, so entering the elevator could be the
equivalent of pushing a button. See http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/nyregion/10elevator.html
.
Jimmy
Stephen Sprunk
That's a heck of a stretch, but I do suppose that elevators run on
vertical rails...
>> I've heard that the rabbis determined that automatic all-stop
>> elevators used on the sabbath (they required no human action to work)
>> were no longer acceptable. Apparently on the sabbath one isn't
>> permitted to turn anything on or off, but if the device is on a timer
>> or automated it's ok, at least until now.
>
> One big-name rabbi in Israel issued a decree, but not much has changed
> in the U.S. yet. The issue is modern elevator circuitry that counts
> people or measures weight, so entering the elevator could be the
> equivalent of pushing a button. See http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/nyregion/10elevator.html
> .
So an elevator that ran constantly, stopping at each floor for a
specified period of time, would still be okay because it didn't attempt
to detect the presence of passengers? Heck, that's easier than making a
"smart" one.
IMHO, it's still hair-splitting hypocrisy. If you're getting a direct
benefit from the technology, it should count as "use", regardless of
whether you pushed a button, paid someone else to push the button, or
simply got on and waited for it to move.
Then again, that's exactly what modern religion is all about: pretending
to be devout by slavishly and publicly adhering to the parts one finds
convenient while ignoring the parts one doesn't find convenient.
Philip Nasadowski
<87dfbb74-ec87-42a0...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Jimmy <JimmyG...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> The issue is modern elevator circuitry that counts
> people or measures weight, so entering the elevator could be the
> equivalent of pushing a button.
A few years back, I worked for an elevator controls firm that supplied
most of NYC's low rise apartments. Weighing devices were always
optional - the controller doesn't give a shit what the car weighs - it
tells the drive to go to a speed target in Hertz, and the drive either
does it or trips out on high current. Actually, just about every
100/150 fpm, and plenty of faster ones, run at 60hz between floors, only
switching to a lower frequency to level.
Shabbos service always amazed me - a huge waste of energy running an
elevator all the time. No, the little 6 and 7 floor ones seen all
around NYC don't regenerate. I don't even know if regenerating drives
are made in double digit horsepowers - few industrial applications
require braking ability at all, and fewer still can make any use of
regen. And there's a snotload of Shabbos elevators in NYC...
Phil Kane
>I didn't even know drinks really were subjected to koshering rules, but
>one possibility is the fluoride added makes it impure?
Coca-Cola has a whole corps of mashgichim (kashrut supervisors) on
their full-time payroll and each gets an annual all-expense-paid trip
to the Far East allegedly to inspect the sources of the tea leaves
that are used to produce the caffeine used in its cola drinks.
--
"Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, Please"
Phil Kane - Beaverton, OR
PNW Beburg MP 28.0 - OE District
Phil Kane
>I wonder if riding in a fully automated train would be ok, or is the
>acting of 'riding' not allowed on the sabbath?
In Orthodox practice, "riding" (more accurately "traveling in a public
place" ) is one of the many activities not permitted on the Sabbath.
Bolwerk
It strikes me as more silly than hypocritical. For the most part,
hyper-orthodox Jews don't bother other people or expect them to become Jews.
If they want elevators that stop on every floor and don't count bodies
or weight, that's their business. And if a building manager wants to
meet the demand, why should I care?
(Personally, I might avoid living in such a building because of the
inconvenience inherent in stopping on every floor.)
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> One big-name rabbi in Israel issued a decree, but not much has changed
> in the U.S. yet. The issue is modern elevator circuitry that counts
> people or measures weight, so entering the elevator could be the
> equivalent of pushing a button. Seehttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/nyregion/10elevator.html
So modern elevators sense weight?
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Shabbos service always amazed me - a huge waste of energy running an
> elevator all the time. No, the little 6 and 7 floor ones seen all
> around NYC don't regenerate. I don't even know if regenerating drives
> are made in double digit horsepowers - few industrial applications
> require braking ability at all, and fewer still can make any use of
> regen. And there's a snotload of Shabbos elevators in NYC...
What did they do before automatic elevators in tall buildings?
Walking up more than five flights, especially carrying a baby, ain't
easy.
By the way, when were automatic elevators invented and when did they
become commonplace?
I've seen automatic units in buildings built circa 1960, so they've
been around for a while.
In the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still", they rode in an
automatic elevator, and that movie was made in the early 1950s.
In the 1970s movie, The Anderson Tapes, the apt bldg had an automatic
elevator with a loudspeaker announcing floors and to please close the
door. The bad guys got annoyed by the speaker and smashed it out.
I recently rode on an A train of older equipment (R32?) that did not
have automatic announcements. It was wonderful. The conductor merely
announced "33rd". No "stand clear of the closing doors". No "This is
an [pause] uptown [pause] A train to [pause] 207th Street". No
"please rat out any railfans taking pictures".
Likewise on commuter trains. Riding SEPTA Silverliners is great--no
PA system at all. Riding Metro North M-7 cars is miserable; the
constant Hollywood voice. Likewise riding Nwk City Subway--constant
voice "Have your ticket or we'll shoot you!"
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:28:52 -0500, Bolwerk <bolw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I didn't even know drinks really were subjected to koshering rules, but
> >one possibility is the fluoride added makes it impure?
>
> Coca-Cola has a whole corps of mashgichim (kashrut supervisors) on
> their full-time payroll and each gets an annual all-expense-paid trip
> to the Far East allegedly to inspect the sources of the tea leaves
> that are used to produce the caffeine used in its cola drinks.
Most soda pop is sweetened from corn syrup these days, but corn is not
kosher for Passover (no grains allowed). Coke distributes a limited
amount sweetened with real sugar and it is certified Kosher.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:43:55 -0800 (PST), hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >I wonder if riding in a fully automated train would be ok, or is the
> >acting of 'riding' not allowed on the sabbath?
>
> In Orthodox practice, "riding" (more accurately "traveling in a public
> place" ) is one of the many activities not permitted on the Sabbath.
They came to our town board and asked for a paper district to be set
aside so that the space within the district ("eruv"?) was considered
"at home". That meant they could carry keys and stuff when they left
the house to go to services on the Sabbath. Since it was meaningless
as far as anyone else was concerned and just on paper it was granted.
However, some towns in the NYC area refused to grant such requests for
anti-Semitic reasons.
danny burstein
>They came to our town board and asked for a paper district to be set
>aside so that the space within the district ("eruv"?) was considered
>"at home". That meant they could carry keys and stuff when they left
>the house to go to services on the Sabbath. Since it was meaningless
>as far as anyone else was concerned and just on paper it was granted.
>However, some towns in the NYC area refused to grant such requests for
>anti-Semitic reasons.
Don't be so quick to get the anti semitic tar brush out.
First, there's lots of folk who don't like this sort
of acquiesence, as minor as it is, to religious practices
And second, people of other religions can easily feel
that they're being stomped on.
To give a counter example: what would happen if some
offshoot of Christianity came to the town council
and said they wanted to protect the area from Satan's
forces, so..
... so they were going to have their priests bless a
a bunch of water trucks (into "holy water") and then
sprnkle it in a circle around the town?
I'd betcha lots of folk would find that annoying.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Nov 19, 6:50 pm, Phil Kane <Phil.K...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:28:52 -0500, Bolwerk <bolw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >I didn't even know drinks really were subjected to koshering rules, but
> > >one possibility is the fluoride added makes it impure?
>
> > Coca-Cola has a whole corps of mashgichim (kashrut supervisors) on
> > their full-time payroll and each gets an annual all-expense-paid trip
> > to the Far East allegedly to inspect the sources of the tea leaves
> > that are used to produce the caffeine used in its cola drinks.
>
> Most soda pop is sweetened from corn syrup these days, but corn is not
> kosher for Passover (no grains allowed).
You get matzoh not made from grain?
Philip Nasadowski
<fa548223-498d-494e...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> What did they do before automatic elevators in tall buildings?
They had an operator. In fact, manually operated elevators are still
quite common in NYC. Either really expensive places or really cheap
places or really cheap places that are now really expensive.
Most apartment elevators are not fully automatic - the door to the car
is automatic but the door into the hallways isn't. Generally, there's a
round window on the hall door* so you can see if the car's there, else
you just pull and hope for the best...
> Walking up more than five flights, especially carrying a baby, ain't
> easy.
Most low rise stuff in NYC is only 6 floors, due to some building code
quirk.
> By the way, when were automatic elevators invented and when did they
> become commonplace?
I'm not exactly sure, but I think they started to appear around WWII.
> I've seen automatic units in buildings built circa 1960, so they've
> been around for a while.
Oh, yes. There's also instances of elevator operators where the
operator just punches the buttons on an automatic. Featherbedding...
FWIW, just about any current passenger elevator that's fully manual, it
shouldn't be possible to crash the car at the end of the shaft.
Actually, some will do 'flying stops', i.e. release the handle and it'll
automagically stop and level at the next floor. There's a few levels of
automation out there.
> In the 1970s movie, The Anderson Tapes, the apt bldg had an automatic
> elevator with a loudspeaker announcing floors and to please close the
> door. The bad guys got annoyed by the speaker and smashed it out.
Talking machinery is one of my big pet peeves.
> Likewise on commuter trains. Riding SEPTA Silverliners is great--no
> PA system at all.
I remember the old LIRR cars and the yelling out of station stops by the
conductor. This lasted till 1999 or so on diesel lines.
> Riding Metro North M-7 cars is miserable; the
> constant Hollywood voice.
The talking's bad enough, the door closing signal's even more annoying.
I'd much rather the bell that the older cars had.
> Likewise riding Nwk City Subway--constant
> voice "Have your ticket or we'll shoot you!"
The Newark subway's a heck of a lot slower since they redid it and
dumped the PCC cars and all. They used to get up and go out of Newark,
now they crawl. Annoying, and no reason for it. Most transit agencies
don't get it - speed and punctuality sells the service. Transit
agencies in the US seem to advertise how you're not driving (no duh) or
how green they are (whatever).
Overseas, go to SBB's website, hit the travel button and what pop's up?
Their passenger services section - and a clock in the lower right hand
corner. You can't even find a clock at most US train stations (every
one in Switzerland and Germany seems to have at least one).
*Inevitably a Staley elevator.
Vince
> On Nov 19, 6:27 pm, Philip Nasadowski <nasado...@usermale.com> wrote:
>
>> Shabbos service always amazed me - a huge waste of energy running an
>> elevator all the time. No, the little 6 and 7 floor ones seen all
>> around NYC don't regenerate. I don't even know if regenerating drives
>> are made in double digit horsepowers - few industrial applications
>> require braking ability at all, and fewer still can make any use of
>> regen. And there's a snotload of Shabbos elevators in NYC...
>
> What did they do before automatic elevators in tall buildings?
> Walking up more than five flights, especially carrying a baby, ain't
> easy.
>
> By the way, when were automatic elevators invented and when did they
> become commonplace?
>
> I've seen automatic units in buildings built circa 1960, so they've
> been around for a while.
>
> In the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still", they rode in an
> automatic elevator, and that movie was made in the early 1950s.
>
When I was small we knew something who lived in the projects in
Bronwsville in the 1950s they had auto elevators.
Tell you what however theres nothing like a manual elevator which can
sometimes be fun if your insides can take it.
zzyzxroad
> I
>
> Most low rise stuff in NYC is only 6 floors, due to some building code
> quirk.
>
>
I don't think it is a bldg code
I believe it has to do with the city's water pressure
the water system can handle 6 floors
higher then that and you need pumps and the roof top tank
also I believe it has to do with economics
if you look at the apt bldgs in Flatbush and other areas in Bklyn,
almost all of them built in the first part of the 20th c were 6
stories
In the mid 70's I lived in one such bldg on E 18th St in Flatbush off
Church Ave
1 1/2 rm furnished studio, no kidding $140 a month
had the pull down Murphy bed and a refrigerator right out of the
1920's with the compressor on top
Sancho Panza
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:2b96317f-08be-41c4...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 19, 10:29 pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> On Nov 19, 6:50 pm, Phil Kane <Phil.K...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:28:52 -0500, Bolwerk <bolw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >I didn't even know drinks really were subjected to koshering rules,
>> > >but
>> > >one possibility is the fluoride added makes it impure?
>>
>> > Coca-Cola has a whole corps of mashgichim (kashrut supervisors) on
>> > their full-time payroll and each gets an annual all-expense-paid trip
>> > to the Far East allegedly to inspect the sources of the tea leaves
>> > that are used to produce the caffeine used in its cola drinks.
>>
>> Most soda pop is sweetened from corn syrup these days, but corn is not
>> kosher for Passover (no grains allowed).
>
> You get matzoh not made from grain?
Those are grains are certified as not having been leavened. The fears about
Chinese production standards are well known. More curious is the difference
in Passover diets between Ashkenazim and Sephardim over items like beans,
peas and lentils.
Peter T. Daniels
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:2b96317f-08be-41c4...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
The statement "no grains allowed" is simply nonsense.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> In <83adefd5-c772-4a29-b93b-bb4fbac23...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> >They came to our town board and asked for a paper district to be set
> >aside so that the space within the district ("eruv"?) was considered
> >"at home". That meant they could carry keys and stuff when they left
> >the house to go to services on the Sabbath. Since it was meaningless
> >as far as anyone else was concerned and just on paper it was granted.
> >However, some towns in the NYC area refused to grant such requests for
> >anti-Semitic reasons.
>
> Don't be so quick to get the anti semitic tar brush out.
> First, there's lots of folk who don't like this sort
> of acquiesence, as minor as it is, to religious practices
> And second, people of other religions can easily feel
> that they're being stomped on.
I should correct myself. It wasn't for anti-Semitic reasons, but
rather anti-Orthodox reasons. The instances were extensively covered
in the NYT. The people opposed to the boundary were afraid it would
make the town too "Orthodox friendly" and that they'd be pressured to
comply with Sabbath and other restrictions. It became a hot issue.
(In our town it was not an issue at all; nor did our town get an
influx of Orthodox people.)
> To give a counter example: what would happen if some
> offshoot of Christianity came to the town council
> and said they wanted to protect the area from Satan's
> forces, so..
> ... so they were going to have their priests bless a
> a bunch of water trucks (into "holy water") and then
> sprnkle it in a circle around the town?
>
> I'd betcha lots of folk would find that annoying.
As long as it didn't effect me it wouldn't bother me.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > Most soda pop is sweetened from corn syrup these days, but corn is not
> > kosher for Passover (no grains allowed).
>
> You get matzoh not made from grain?
I believe the grain and other ingredients used in matzoh are strictly
controlled, not regular off-the-shelf stuff.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> > What did they do before automatic elevators in tall buildings?
>
> They had an operator. In fact, manually operated elevators are still
> quite common in NYC. Either really expensive places or really cheap
> places or really cheap places that are now really expensive.
My question was about Orthodox in a tall apt building riding in a
manual elevator.
> Oh, yes. There's also instances of elevator operators where the
> operator just punches the buttons on an automatic. Featherbedding...
Not exactly. Such operators served several functions:
1) Gatekeeper--allowing only authorized people to ride the elevator or
get off at certain floors.
2) Route the elevator to certain floors and wait for a person or
freight.
3) Hold the elevator while freight is unloaded.
4) Assist strangers visiting the building, such as in a department
store.
The above functions had operators working in the 1960s and 1970s, but
advances in technology, such as security keycards, allowed automation
to replace them.
A few years ago I was in a NYC office bldg on a Saturday. The
elevator, normally automatic, was manually operated. The operator had
a special panel and ran local to all floors, instead of the normal
zoned express. The operator checked your id before stopping at a
certain floor and provided other services.
> The talking's bad enough, the door closing signal's even more annoying.
> I'd much rather the bell that the older cars had.
That old tinkle bell was a standard off-the-shelf door bell, cheap and
easily replaced, at least once was easily replaced. PATCO and SEPTA
use them, too. But everything these days is electronic. Even the
gong at grade crossings is electronic.
In the old days, most signal bells, like at the end of a typewriter
line, were intentionally designed to have a pleasant sound.
Locomotive bells are generally pleasant. Harsh bells were reserved
for warnings.
> The Newark subway's a heck of a lot slower since they redid it and
> dumped the PCC cars and all. They used to get up and go out of Newark,
> now they crawl. Annoying, and no reason for it. Most transit agencies
> don't get it - speed and punctuality sells the service. Transit
> agencies in the US seem to advertise how you're not driving (no duh) or
> how green they are (whatever).
The PCCs had faster acceleration than the new cars. They had to add a
few minutes to the schedule to accomodate the slower new cars.
NJT sent out the Arrows for overhaul and they came back SLOWER!
Nobody cared or complained!
The running time for all trains, including expresses, on the Trenton
line is 20 minutes longer than in Conrail days, despite the passage of
30 years. Run time should be faster!
Note that SEPTA says its new Silverliner Vs will have faster
acceleration. Probably true, at least until they blow out the 1930
substations on the Reading side.
SEPTA's Kawasaki trolleys do have a very strong pickup and braking.
Stephen Sprunk
Yes; it's a safety thing. If the load limit is exceeded, the elevator
will usually refuse to move, because ascending or stopping a descent
might overload the motor. There are safety brakes, but they are not
allowed to rely on them in normal service because that could wear them
out, leaving them ineffective in an actual emergency (e.g. cable snap).
Once you have a weight sensor installed as standard equipment, it's easy
to add some additional logic to use that information for other purposes,
such as automatically moving when someone gets on.
Michael Moroney
>They came to our town board and asked for a paper district to be set
>aside so that the space within the district ("eruv"?) was considered
>"at home". That meant they could carry keys and stuff when they left
>the house to go to services on the Sabbath. Since it was meaningless
>as far as anyone else was concerned and just on paper it was granted.
Don't they require some sort of fence line for that? (for very small
values of 'fence line'. Supposedly in some areas they just run a wire
along the boundary or simply consider existing telephone/power lines
as the boundary marker)
Jimmy
> If they want elevators that stop on every floor and don't count bodies
> or weight, that's their business. And if a building manager wants to
> meet the demand, why should I care?
It could mean longer waits for the remaining elevator(s). And if you
live in a co-op, you'd pay for the cost of conversion and the extra
electricity.
Jimmy
Bolwerk
I suppose, but it's still less objectionable than, say, suburbanites
wasting significantly more energy driving everywhere.
I'd have no objection to requiring such places to pay for solar panels
to make up for their waste (seems perfectly fair, since the Sabbath ends
at sunset). Stupidity should not be subsidized, but that doesn't mean
it should be banned.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
wrote:
> Don't they require some sort of fence line for that? (for very small
> values of 'fence line'. Supposedly in some areas they just run a wire
> along the boundary or simply consider existing telephone/power lines
> as the boundary marker)
The supposedly nailed a tiny piece of wood or tape to a telephone pole
to mark it off. But as I understood it, it was the formal recognition
that was necessary. I don't understand why they themselves just
couldn't declare a zone as such for their own purposes.
the nuances of this stuff are quite complex and are based upon
Biblical and Talmudic law, as interpreted by the leading rabbis.
There is not always unaminous agreement; one leading rabbi might
disagree with another leading rabbi. For example, one rabbi might
declare a bakery as Kosher but other rabbis disagree and not recognize
it as such (as happened in our town.)
Peter T. Daniels
The statement "no grains allowed" is sheer nonsense.
David Lesher
>> Walking up more than five flights, especially carrying a baby, ain't
>> easy.
>Most low rise stuff in NYC is only 6 floors, due to some building code
>quirk.
I've read it was because of the water..
NYC is gravity fed by the head pressure from upper NYS. That's only good
for six stories. That was thus the cutoff; 7 stories needed a pump, and
TPTB also at that point made it a different class of building....needing
an elevator, etc.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Vince
> On Nov 19, 10:44 pm, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In <83adefd5-c772-4a29-b93b-bb4fbac23...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>> They came to our town board and asked for a paper district to be set
>>> aside so that the space within the district ("eruv"?) was considered
>>> "at home". That meant they could carry keys and stuff when they left
>>> the house to go to services on the Sabbath. Since it was meaningless
>>> as far as anyone else was concerned and just on paper it was granted.
>>> However, some towns in the NYC area refused to grant such requests for
>>> anti-Semitic reasons.
>> Don't be so quick to get the anti semitic tar brush out.
>> First, there's lots of folk who don't like this sort
>> of acquiesence, as minor as it is, to religious practices
>> And second, people of other religions can easily feel
>> that they're being stomped on.
>
> I should correct myself. It wasn't for anti-Semitic reasons, but
> rather anti-Orthodox reasons. The instances were extensively covered
> in the NYT. The people opposed to the boundary were afraid it would
> make the town too "Orthodox friendly" and that they'd be pressured to
> comply with Sabbath and other restrictions. It became a hot issue.
> (In our town it was not an issue at all; nor did our town get an
> influx of Orthodox people.)
>
>
I live in Brooklyn where such is the case in some areas i.e.
The "Orthodox police" so to speak go around the neighborhood and find
out who's Jewish period doesn't have to be "Orthodox" and if you don't
close on Friday night and all day Saturday they will boycott your
business. Trust me I used to deal with a photo lab near Nostrard Ave
he later moved to George Town shopping mall where such wasn't the case.
OH YES I've heard this from other non Orthodox Jewish business people as
well.
Vince
> Philip Nasadowski <nasa...@usermale.com> writes:
>
>
>>> Walking up more than five flights, especially carrying a baby, ain't
>>> easy.
>
>> Most low rise stuff in NYC is only 6 floors, due to some building code
>> quirk.
>
> I've read it was because of the water..
>
> NYC is gravity fed by the head pressure from upper NYS. That's only good
> for six stories. That was thus the cutoff; 7 stories needed a pump, and
> TPTB also at that point made it a different class of building....needing
> an elevator, etc.
>
>
>
away recently have you've ever seen what inside any of them? UGGH!
Peter T. Daniels
> Philip Nasadowski <nasado...@usermale.com> writes:
> >> Walking up more than five flights, especially carrying a baby, ain't
> >> easy.
> >Most low rise stuff in NYC is only 6 floors, due to some building code
> >quirk.
>
> I've read it was because of the water..
>
> NYC is gravity fed by the head pressure from upper NYS. That's only good
> for six stories. That was thus the cutoff; 7 stories needed a pump, and
> TPTB also at that point made it a different class of building....needing
> an elevator, etc.
Five-story buildings don't have to have an elevator. Six-story
buildings do.
Andrew Price
<ste...@sprunk.org> wrote:
>So an elevator that ran constantly, stopping at each floor for a
>specified period of time, would still be okay because it didn't attempt
>to detect the presence of passengers? Heck, that's easier than making a
>"smart" one.
Apart from the stopping for a specified period of time, that sounds
almost like the definition of a "Paternoster":
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster>
of which there are still a few in service in Europe.
Phil Kane
>Most soda pop is sweetened from corn syrup these days, but corn is not
>kosher for Passover (no grains allowed). Coke distributes a limited
>amount sweetened with real sugar and it is certified Kosher.
Corn was not permitted to Ashkenazi (European ancestry) Jews during
Pesah (Passover) but there never was such a prohibition for Sefardi
(Mediterranean/Middle Eastern) Jews. Just last year, the Israeli
Chief Rabbi's office ruled that because of the plethora of "mixed"
marriages (Ashkenazi-Sefardi) like my nephew, that restriction was
lifted for all.
--
Phil Kane - Beaverton, OR
PNW Beburg MP 28.0 - OE District
Phil Kane
>They came to our town board and asked for a paper district to be set
>aside so that the space within the district ("eruv"?) was considered
>"at home". That meant they could carry keys and stuff when they left
>the house to go to services on the Sabbath. Since it was meaningless
>as far as anyone else was concerned and just on paper it was granted.
Actually there has to be a physical boundary, usually provided by the
arrangement of telephone or cable wires.
>
>However, some towns in the NYC area refused to grant such requests for
>anti-Semitic reasons.
As expected.
David Lesher
>> NYC is gravity fed by the head pressure from upper NYS. That's only good
>> for six stories. That was thus the cutoff; 7 stories needed a pump, and
>> TPTB also at that point made it a different class of building....needing
>> an elevator, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>Going across Manhattan Bridge I see a number of water tanks have gone
>away recently have you've ever seen what inside any of them? UGGH!
Those are not for drinking water; they are for fire fighting.
David Lesher
>> I've read it was because of the water..
>>
>> NYC is gravity fed by the head pressure from upper NYS. That's only good
>> for six stories. That was thus the cutoff; 7 stories needed a pump, and
>> TPTB also at that point made it a different class of building....needing
>> an elevator, etc.
>Five-story buildings don't have to have an elevator. Six-story
>buildings do.
Ahh, it could easily be a 5-6 cutoff, not a 6-7.
Stephen Sprunk
That was actually the first thing I thought of, but since there aren't
any public ones left in the US (AFAIK) due to safety concerns, I decided
not to mention it.
tobias b koehler
> (Personally, I might avoid living in such a building because of the
> inconvenience inherent in stopping on every floor.)
Why even stop and not install a paternoster that runs constantly at a
slow enough speed that you can step in and out while it's running?
As for bottled water - I always have a water bottle, which was
originally for mineral water, and fill it up whenever getting to a
"safe" water source. The water in train washbasins isn't considered safe
for drinking; even though it's originally clean drinking water it is
sitting in a tank for an extended time and there might be some germs
developing in that time ..... Hence the signs "No drinking water".
When in China I buy all water, there the tap water is not drinkable. In
the high speed trains (CRH) they distribute bottles of "5100" water from
Tibet, by the way.
chris.li...@gmail.com
> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 5:22 pm, Philip Nasadowski <nasado...@usermale.com> wrote:
>
> >> The only 1/2 legit excuse I ever heard for drinking bottled water is
> >> that NYC's water quite literally isn't Kosher. I know a firm that's
> >> been making a killing installing water filters in heavily Jewish areas
> >> in NYC...
>
> > Never heard that. Clean water, by being _clean_, is Kosher. I can't
> > imagine how clean water could be 'contaminated' with non-Kosher
> > elements and still be considered 'clean'. If one uses water say to
> > cook pork, ham, or bacon, one does not drink the water after using it
> > to wash off the meat.
>
> I didn't even know drinks really were subjected to koshering rules, but
> one possibility is the fluoride added makes it impure?
>
> Bedford in Williamsburg, you'll find rather the curious situation of
> Hassidic Jews and local hipsters are drinking together and watching sports.)
The issue is the presence, in tiny, tiny numbers, of microscopic
critters called Copepods in the NY water supply.
Copepods are crustaceans, and thus related to lobsters and crabs and
such. They are everywhere, and form a really important step in the
food web of aquatic habitats.
They turn up every few years in the NYC water supply- unsurprising,
since they are present in the reservoirs. They are a sign of a healthy
system, but naturally, conservative Jews are distressed by their
presence. I do not blame them for being upset but going overboard
about microscopic beasties seems a little over the top to me- BUT it
is their religion, not mine, so more power to them.
ob transit- does the MTA have an obligation to ultra-filter their
water to make it kosher?
Chris
chris.li...@gmail.com
> In <nasadowsk-A775D9.21072618112...@news.optonline.net> Philip Nasadowski <nasado...@usermale.com> writes:
>
> >In article <SomdneJ1WsZbvZnWnZ2dnUVZ_gCdn...@earthlink.com>,
> > Bolwerk <bolw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I didn't even know drinks really were subjected to koshering rules, but
> >> one possibility is the fluoride added makes it impure?
>
> NYC's been adding fluoride for 44 years:
>
> "On Oct. 1, 1965, the newspaper published a 44-word article
> reporting that "fluoridation of New York's water supply, a matter
> of bitter debate for several years, began quietly today.."
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/health/17first.html
>
> obtransit: hydrofluoric acid is used for etching
> the subway glass windows in a form of graffitti.
>
HOLY COW
Graffittists use hydroflouric acid?
I don't think so. It's one of the worst acids around. The terrible
thing is that if you spill it on yourself it does not cause much pain
or burning...but it eats all the way through flesh into your bone*. An
HF (that's the formula, just as HCl is hydrochloric acid) container
was left out as regular trash a few years ago, and it burst in the
truck, splattering a Sanitation worker who died as a result. Whoever
left it out there (he/she was never found) should have gone to jail
for negligent homicide.
In any case, yes, HF is one of the few known solvents for glass. It
can be used to make beautiful etchings in glass bottles. In chem labs
it must be stored in plastic bottles (the only acid with that
requirement).
But graffiti? I seriously doubt it. We'd have dozens of maimed and
dead teens on the tracks with HF burns all over their hands.
Chris
*I worked with someone once who spilled HF on herself. According to
her (and this might be out of date now) the treatment for a serious
exposure to HF (and what she went through, and had the scar to prove
it) was immersion in a slurry of ice and salt water. When you are numb
enough, begin scrubbing with a coarse wire brush. When you feel pain,
reimmerse the exposed skin in the slurry. Scrub again. Repeat.
This woman's scar on her arm horrified me. I never, ever want to go
near that stuff.
chris.li...@gmail.com
Isn't it the use of yeast to cause rising of the loaf that is not
allowed?
Sorry, but I was raised catholic to I am ignorant.
Chris
chris.li...@gmail.com
> On Nov 18, 9:43 pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 18, 11:51 am, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > > "These rabbis have recently discovered that there are
> > > tiny creatures, called copepods, in the unfiltered water
> > > that streams into the city from upstate. These tiny
> > > organisms are harmless. But they are crustaceans. And
> > > crustaceans are not considered kosher...."
>
> > Moving back, sort of, to transportation, I've heard that the rabbis
> > determined that automatic all-stop elevators used on the sabbath (they
> > required no human action to work) were no longer acceptable.
> > Apparently on the sabbath one isn't permitted to turn anything on or
> > off, but if the device is on a timer or automated it's ok, at least
> > until now.
>
> > I wonder if riding in a fully automated train would be ok, or is the
> > acting of 'riding' not allowed on the sabbath?
>
> > Where's Peter? He knows all this stuff.
>
> When I was invited to a conference in Tel Aviv in 1999, I was appalled
> by the automatic elevators. I'm glad they've finally come to their
> senses (or at least de-hypocritized the system to this extent).
I assume you mean you were upset about mechanical conveyances
operating (even automatically) on the Sabbath. Um, what about
handicapped people?
But I recently had occasion to visit the web site of B and H audio/
visual, one of the biggest retailers of cameras and other optics in
New York City. It's owned and run by conservative Jews, and they do
not take internet-based orders from sundown Friday to (I think)
sundown Saturday...in other words they keep their Sabbath, even on the
internet. Good for them, I say.
Chris
I was
> also appalled that when I got a glimpse of the Western Wall, we (our
> local host and my Catholic colleague) were accosted by an ultra-
> orthodox-dressed beggar -- who begged his few coins in the Sacred
> Language rather than Yiddish. (Only my Catholic friend succumbed.)
>
> As a little girl, my mother was corrupted by observant neighbors into
> being a Sabbath "goy" who turned on their lights for a nickel -- even
> though her family was (non-observant) Jewish.
Miles Bader
> But I recently had occasion to visit the web site of B and H audio/
> visual, one of the biggest retailers of cameras and other optics in
> New York City. It's owned and run by conservative Jews, and they do
> not take internet-based orders from sundown Friday to (I think)
> sundown Saturday...in other words they keep their Sabbath, even on the
> internet. Good for them, I say.
Not operating a business seems like it's keeping with the spirit of the
restriction; not taking an elevator just seems kind of obsessive...
-Miles
--
The automobile has not merely taken over the street, it has dissolved the
living tissue of the city. Its appetite for space is absolutely insatiable;
moving and parked, it devours urban land, leaving the buildings as mere
islands of habitable space in a sea of dangerous and ugly traffic.
[James Marston Fitch, New York Times, 1 May 1960]
Vince
> "chris.li...@gmail.com" <chris.li...@gmail.com> writes:
>> But I recently had occasion to visit the web site of B and H audio/
>> visual, one of the biggest retailers of cameras and other optics in
>> New York City. It's owned and run by conservative Jews, and they do
>> not take internet-based orders from sundown Friday to (I think)
>> sundown Saturday...in other words they keep their Sabbath, even on the
>> internet. Good for them, I say.
>
> Not operating a business seems like it's keeping with the spirit of the
> restriction; not taking an elevator just seems kind of obsessive...
>
> -Miles
>
Century 21 stories are owned by conservative Jews as well, and they are
open 7 days.
Peter T. Daniels
It's the use of _anything_ that causes rising that is not allowed.
Just like a Communion wafer, incidentally.
Peter T. Daniels
Peter T. Daniels
<chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 11:34 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 9:43 pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> > > On Nov 18, 11:51 am, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > > > "These rabbis have recently discovered that there are
> > > > tiny creatures, called copepods, in the unfiltered water
> > > > that streams into the city from upstate. These tiny
> > > > organisms are harmless. But they are crustaceans. And
> > > > crustaceans are not considered kosher...."
>
> > > Moving back, sort of, to transportation, I've heard that the rabbis
> > > determined that automatic all-stop elevators used on the sabbath (they
> > > required no human action to work) were no longer acceptable.
> > > Apparently on the sabbath one isn't permitted to turn anything on or
> > > off, but if the device is on a timer or automated it's ok, at least
> > > until now.
>
> > > I wonder if riding in a fully automated train would be ok, or is the
> > > acting of 'riding' not allowed on the sabbath?
>
> > > Where's Peter? He knows all this stuff.
>
> > When I was invited to a conference in Tel Aviv in 1999, I was appalled
> > by the automatic elevators. I'm glad they've finally come to their
> > senses (or at least de-hypocritized the system to this extent).
>
> I assume you mean you were upset about mechanical conveyances
> operating (even automatically) on the Sabbath. Um, what about
> handicapped people?
They probably weren't allowed in the Temple (being ritually impure).
Though note that an awful lot of us moderns would count as "blind" --
corrective lenses wouldn't exist for many centuries after Bible times.
> But I recently had occasion to visit the web site of B and H audio/
> visual, one of the biggest retailers of cameras and other optics in
> New York City. It's owned and run by conservative Jews, and they do
> not take internet-based orders from sundown Friday to (I think)
> sundown Saturday...in other words they keep their Sabbath, even on the
> internet. Good for them, I say.
They also don't hire women salespersons. (Women can be cashiers but no
higher.) The news story on this latest lawsuit mentions they've been
sued over all sorts of discrimination before.
Vince
For years I got my camera, film etc at these Orthodox owned stories
At 47th St photo only one person took money this very old gent who must
have been around since George Eastman. In any case it was only the
family (women as well) for the most part who ran these places.
Then one day I saw low and behold not just a non Orthodox woman
but she was black.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> It sounds like they've replaced the piping with clean
> copper... and that they're on top of the general maintenance
> these days.
Had some yesterday (GCT water) and it tasted fine and I'm still here.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> ob transit- does the MTA have an obligation to ultra-filter their
> water to make it kosher?
No.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> They also don't hire women salespersons. (Women can be cashiers but no
> higher.) The news story on this latest lawsuit mentions they've been
> sued over all sorts of discrimination before.
What Orthodox theological rules prevent a woman from being a
salesperson but not a cashier?
At first I thought the prohibition against touching, but cashier might
touch a customer's hand in giving change or receipt; unless they use a
widow and dish to put the money.
Maybe (just speculating), the extended interaction between the
salesperson and the customer might be considered wrong. But what
about a woman customer?
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> But I recently had occasion to visit the web site of B and H audio/
> visual, one of the biggest retailers of cameras and other optics in
> New York City. It's owned and run by conservative Jews
I guess their public water fountains are properly filtered against
that little plankton?
The cable network "This TV" runs Sea Hunt* reruns late at night. I
wonder if Lloyd Bridges have had to deal with one. Maybe they ganged
up on him after disturbing their habitat.
*Show plot does not hold well over time. Photography remains great.
Jimmy
> But I recently had occasion to visit the web site of B and H audio/
> visual, one of the biggest retailers of cameras and other optics in
> New York City. It's owned and run by conservative Jews, and they do
> not take internet-based orders from sundown Friday to (I think)
> sundown Saturday...in other words they keep their Sabbath, even on the
> internet. Good for them, I say.
FYI, the correct term is orthodox Jews. When applied to Jews,
conservative means middle-of-the-road.
Jimmy
Peter T. Daniels
> On Nov 22, 12:22 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > They also don't hire women salespersons. (Women can be cashiers but no
> > higher.) The news story on this latest lawsuit mentions they've been
> > sued over all sorts of discrimination before.
>
> What Orthodox theological rules prevent a woman from being a
> salesperson but not a cashier?
If there were any such "rule," obviously they could argue a religious
exemption -- but there isn't.
> At first I thought the prohibition against touching, but cashier might
> touch a customer's hand in giving change or receipt; unless they use a
> widow and dish to put the money.
>
> Maybe (just speculating), the extended interaction between the
> salesperson and the customer might be considered wrong. But what
> about a woman customer?
Or maybe they don't like the idea of women earning as much as men.
Peter T. Daniels
"Camera shops" is not the concern. One specific business is the
concern.
Stephen Sprunk
> Bolwerk schrieb:
>> (Personally, I might avoid living in such a building because of the
>> inconvenience inherent in stopping on every floor.)
>
> Why even stop and not install a paternoster that runs constantly at a
> slow enough speed that you can step in and out while it's running?
Paternosters have been virtually eliminated in the US, and no new public
ones installed for quite a while, due to the safety hazard. One idiot
sticking his foot out and watching it get cut off could bankrupt the
building owner.
I _have_ seen a few new private ones, though they stretch the
definition. Parking structures here often have a paternoster of sorts
for valets: it's a chain with metal platforms (barely large enough for
one person) and handholds sticking out, which travels up through holes
in the floors, flips over, and descends through another set of holes on
the other side. It's very efficient, but nobody in their right mind
would let the general public anywhere near it.
Larry Sheldon
> tobias b koehler wrote:
>> Bolwerk schrieb:
>>> (Personally, I might avoid living in such a building because of the
>>> inconvenience inherent in stopping on every floor.)
>> Why even stop and not install a paternoster that runs constantly at a
>> slow enough speed that you can step in and out while it's running?
>
> Paternosters have been virtually eliminated in the US, and no new public
> ones installed for quite a while, due to the safety hazard. One idiot
> sticking his foot out and watching it get cut off could bankrupt the
> building owner.
>
> I _have_ seen a few new private ones, though they stretch the
> definition. Parking structures here often have a paternoster of sorts
> for valets: it's a chain with metal platforms (barely large enough for
> one person) and handholds sticking out, which travels up through holes
> in the floors, flips over, and descends through another set of holes on
> the other side. It's very efficient, but nobody in their right mind
> would let the general public anywhere near it.
Parking lots in San Francisco have (had) those--vertical conveyor belts
tith the steps and hand-hold operating in a single slot.
--
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of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca
ICBM Targeting Information:
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danny burstein
>I _have_ seen a few new private ones, though they stretch the
>definition. Parking structures here often have a paternoster of sorts
>for valets: it's a chain with metal platforms (barely large enough for
>one person) and handholds sticking out, which travels up through holes
>in the floors, flips over, and descends through another set of holes on
>the other side. It's very efficient, but nobody in their right mind
>would let the general public anywhere near it.
http://www.humphrey-manlift.com/store.asp?pid=27319
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Paul R
<snip>
>
> In any case, yes, HF is one of the few known solvents for glass. It can
> be used to make beautiful etchings in glass bottles. In chem labs it
> must be stored in plastic bottles (the only acid with that requirement).
>
> But graffiti? I seriously doubt it. We'd have dozens of maimed and dead
> teens on the tracks with HF burns all over their hands.
>
> Chris
>
> *I worked with someone once who spilled HF on herself. According to her
> (and this might be out of date now) the treatment for a serious exposure
> to HF (and what she went through, and had the scar to prove it) was
> immersion in a slurry of ice and salt water. When you are numb enough,
> begin scrubbing with a coarse wire brush. When you feel pain, reimmerse
> the exposed skin in the slurry. Scrub again. Repeat.
>
> This woman's scar on her arm horrified me. I never, ever want to go near
> that stuff.
HF leaves very sharp etch-pits in the glass; makes it very fragile.
Frosted light bulbs are treated with sodium-silico-fluride after the HF
etch to round out the pits and increase the strength (well, actually
reduce the reduction of strength) of the bulbs.
Paul R
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
their water because of sewage backup or even still-wooden water mains
after all the trouble that is undertaken to keep the septic tanks of
near-upstate residents from contaminating the watershed.
(I have no trouble drinking Queens tap water, though.)
- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm http://www.facebook.com/vasjpan2
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]
Stephen Sprunk
> In <hecfh9$32f$1...@news.eternal-september.org> Stephen Sprunk <ste...@sprunk.org> writes:
>> I _have_ seen a few new private ones, though they stretch the
>> definition. Parking structures here often have a paternoster of sorts
>> for valets: it's a chain with metal platforms (barely large enough for
>> one person) and handholds sticking out, which travels up through holes
>> in the floors, flips over, and descends through another set of holes on
>> the other side. It's very efficient, but nobody in their right mind
>> would let the general public anywhere near it.
>
> http://www.humphrey-manlift.com/store.asp?pid=27319
That's exactly it; thanks!
Note that even the vendor calls it an _employee_ belt manlift, i.e.
there is no intent that the general public would use it.
Slim
> On Nov 22, 12:22�am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> They also don't hire women salespersons. (Women can be cashiers but no
>> higher.) The news story on this latest lawsuit mentions they've been
>> sued over all sorts of discrimination before.
>
> What Orthodox theological rules prevent a woman from being a
> salesperson but not a cashier?
The same one that keep them separate from society in general.
--
"A nickel isn't worth a dime today." - Y. Berra
Slim
All extremist religions keep women as second-class citizens.
Its just one of the benefits of being an extremist.
Bolwerk
Conservative Judaism is an odd hodgepodge of groups. Some seem to be
extremely liberal, endorsing gay marriage and women rabbis. Others seem
very conservative, going so far as to separate women and men in the
congregation.
Phil Kane
>But I recently had occasion to visit the web site of B and H audio/
>visual, one of the biggest retailers of cameras and other optics in
>New York City. It's owned and run by conservative Jews,
Sorry, Chris, B&H is owned and operated by Orthodox Jews, not
Conservative Jews.
ObTranit - their store is a very easy walk from NY Penna Station - I
did it two years ago,
--
"Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, Please"
Phil Kane - Beaverton, OR
PNW Beburg MP 28.0 - OE District
Phil Kane
<lfsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Parking lots in San Francisco have (had) those--vertical conveyor belts
>tith the steps and hand-hold operating in a single slot.
Thirsty-five years using parking lots in San Francisco and I've never
seen one...
Larry Sheldon
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:05:33 -0600, Larry Sheldon
> <lfsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Parking lots in San Francisco have (had) those--vertical conveyor belts
>> tith the steps and hand-hold operating in a single slot.
>
> Thirsty-five years using parking lots in San Francisco and I've never
> seen one...
The one down a few doors from Orsi's had one for sure.
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
*+-All extremist religions keep women as second-class citizens.
I have my doubts about this chicken and egg problem. Nearly all
religions have strictures against extremism, but politicians still
seem to hijack them for Machiavellian (see what Machiavelli says about
religion) reasons nonetheless. THe problem of our age is that a lot of
children of illiterates have learned to read and are deceived by
ancient junk that their own cultures rejected just because of the
authenticity lent to it by being ancient. The net result might be
called "learned ignorance."