This is a trap and it's obvious
JoJo 埠汗
geoff won't mind me forwarding it on - what are everyone's thoughts on its
contents?
The Path of Least Resistance
Almost as soon as the events of September 11th unfolded to an
unsuspecting America, the words flowed out: 'This means War!' With the
fires still burning and the emergency services unable to cope with the
scale of the tragedy, it was war. The clear and present failure of the
CIA and FBI to foresee this calamity or head it off once the initial
hijacking became known, was strangely juxtaposed against the certain
and absolute knowledge of who was responsible - the Saudi dissident
Osama Bin Laden. On the one hand these planes, hijacked and driven
into symbols of America by persons unknown, without warning. On the
other, the knowledge it could only be one man, living in the remotest
of places. This means war - but what does that mean? We are told this
is a war of civilisations, an attack on freedom but how can anybody
even know enough for these obtuse abstractions? All any of us could
surmise from the horror of the day was this: A sudden and suicidal
strike on the symbols of American economic and military might. Surely
to 'know' any more than this suggests foreknowledge which was so
clearly and tragically absent. Every sane observer to the events of
last Tuesday was shocked by what happened but, if we reach deep inside
ourselves, were we really surprised that the world has come to this?
Last year when George W. Bush became President of the world's last
superpower in the most dubious and acrimonious election the USA has
ever seen, what did you think? I recall, as soon as his cabinet
line-up became known, that it was the same faces as those who brought
us the Gulf War. Bush (albeit Dubya), Cheney and Colin Powell. I
remember, back then, thinking this would mean some kind of 'finishing
off what was started' ten years ago now. I imagine Saddam Hussein felt
some sense of deja-vu as he saw this latest George Bush and the old
Cheney, Colin Powell set take up their positions in Washington. I
remember thinking with certainty there would now be another Gulf War.
Gulf War II - This time it's what? There was much horseplay about
Dubya's lack of any kind of handle on foreign policy and much warning
given that he was little more than a puppet for shadowy, corporate
interests. His amusing yet alarming personal displays of ignorance and
oversimplifications made people wonder how such a man could be
entrusted with the highest office on Earth. I think many believed at
the time of the election it would be somehow proven he had not
actually won the Presidency. Proof that never came.
The one strand of continuity from his father's heralding in of the
'Read my lips, New World Order' was that despite Desert Storm and
Desert Shield and ten years of continuous bombing - Saddam Hussein was
still very much there. Clinton had come and gone, if you'll excuse the
double entendre, and now Bush, Cheney and Colin Powell were back. Ok
so it was Dubya and not Senior but hell, when the election campaign
started a lot of people thought it was Senior anyway!
Coming back to the present - Fifty thousand reservists are called up,
America's young are signing up, the fleets and instruments of war are
being deployed. War it is, and yet, war against whom? A terrorist
organisation is very different to a state. It has no borders, it
operates, can only operate, from the shadows. Just who will the USA
prosecute a war against? 'Whoever it damn well likes' and 'If we
overreact then tough' are simply not good enough. The USA maintains by
far the greatest capacity for destruction our world has ever known and
yet, ironically, these weapons are ineffective against a terrorist
organisation or network of organisations. This is going to be a war
against whoever America wishes to include. Are they going to cherry
pick their enemies? Is this a war against the usual suspects as it
appears to be: Iraq, Osama Bin Laden, Sudan, Libya etc. We've already
heard the hijackers and suspects, some at least, were Egyptian, Omani
and from the United Arab Emirates - yet somehow I don't see America
targeting these countries.
It has been said this is a crusade. Will this develop into a war
against Islam? Tony Blair is at pains to assure us it will not.
However, is it really up to him? Or the USA? If the targets of this
war are to be a cherry picked list of Islamic states then surely we
must ask ourselves how will Islam respond. We in the West do not have
a monopoly on crusades, holy wars or Jihad. Isn't this how we got into
this awful mess in the first place? Is this not an increasingly
vicious circle we are now in danger of spiralling around and around?
Historically the crusades that began a thousand years ago achieved
very little apart from lakes of blood in the Middle East. A flashpoint
ever since continuing to demand lives from all those involved. Worse
yet and similar to Spartacus - do we not risk the creation of
thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of Osama Bin
Ladens by prosecuting a war on Islam? However much we say this won't
be war on Islam itself it will be Islam itself that decides whether it
is.
If not a war on Islam then, again, the question must be 'A war on
whom?' Will it only be countries without a chain of Macdonalds who are
targeted? Is this what James Rubin means when he calls for a war of
civilisations? We certainly won't be attacking any rich Arab nations
such as Kuwait, Saudi, the UAE or Oman. So does this mean we will only
be attacking poor countries? Only those who can't fight back? Will we
only be attacking unwesternised countries and once all this is over,
if anyone at all is left alive, will these places then be westernised?
If this is to be, as we are told, a war against terrorism then does
this include Northern Ireland and the IRA or the real IRA? Will it
include ETA? I think not. Then this won't be a war against global
terrorism. It will be a selective war against selective targets,
dressed up as a war against terrorism. What then will this 'war' in
fact be? What is the real umbrella these targets will fall under? Who
is the enemy? The rhetoric only serves to confuse the issue further
and this is truly at the heart of problem. How can anyone declare war
on an unknown and potentially unknowable enemy?
If we return to the failure of the most powerful intelligence agencies
in the world we can perhaps begin to see how the shadows are never as
black or the light as white as we would prefer. Billions of dollars
are spent every year on 'Intelligence'. Known terrorist organisations
are exposed to constant satellite, electronic and human surveillance -
including the so called prime suspect and his network of networks.
Yet, out of the blue sky death rained down on America, using its own
domestic objects against them. Heads have not yet rolled in the CIA or
FBI. The sheer amount of shared intelligence through the worlds
agencies didn't flag this up - the largest and most daring terrorist
attack in the world. I am not the only one who finds this hard if not
impossible to believe. There are many interests at stake here. Our own
security services have deliberately not shared everything with the USA
on several occasions. If Mossad, the notoriously ruthless Israeli
intelligence agency, had forewarning would they have passed it on? Or
would they have allowed it to proceed in the certain knowledge it
would ultimately further their own cause by forcing the USA to step up
to the plate and respond. Hypothetical? Perhaps.
The other failure of intelligence, apart from co-operation, continues
as the FBI round up dozens of 'suspects' and then let them go again.
Despite Osama Bin Laden's network having been under such considerable
scrutiny since the first World Trade Centre bombing - None of his
known operatives have been picked up. The FBI have to date released
all but one of these suspects and other countries have followed suit
in Europe. They pick up Arabic suspects, shake them down and let them
go again without charge. The failure of intelligence will continue for
as long as it concentrates on being seen to be doing something,
anything, but is in fact only chasing it's tail. Meanwhile of course,
the perpetrators continue to go undetected and unpunished. Despite the
apparent visibility of the FBI in their media raids on hotels and
planes about to depart - the invisibility of the enemy remains
palpably evident. All the billions, all the personnel, all the
high-tech equipment and weapons of war did not stop what happened on
Tuesday and has achieved absolutely nothing since. In fact it has
managed to deepen the sense of indignation of the wrongly arrested and
falsely accused and stirred up more and more racially motivated
tension.
When this is compared to the sheer evil genius of the perpetrators and
the scale and precision of this act of utter terror it seems the
greatest nation on Earth is being seriously outclassed. The
professionals in this grim scenario, awful truth that it is, have been
the fanatical perpetrators. Unable to tackle the might of the USA head
on they have taken their strategies from 'the Art of War' to prosecute
their attack by other means. Compared to the enormous loss of innocent
life and billions in dollars as well as the inestimable damage to the
human psyche, these people used knives. Fanatics they may have been
but the dark intelligence at work has run rings around the
intelligence community - many of whom were on the West coast holding
their annual conference. The timing, the preparation, the selection of
targets all go to show we are dealing with an enemy capable of such
evil, such stupefying evil genius that it has put the so called
intelligence community at an extreme disadvantage.
To truly understand this we must look at what really happened on
September 11th. We must look beyond the obvious and total horror felt
by us all and we must try and make out this new landscape that
confronts us all. I do not congratulate the brilliance of the
perpetrators in carrying out their plan of terror, only attempt to
'draw attention to their intelligence' because it has been this
ability to strike completely out of leftfield which makes this event
so ominous of further looming dangers. To react in the 'same old way'
is simply not on the menu. This action, death toll shattering that it
is apart, was an act of provocation. This is the first card played
from a poker hand made up of aces. America is being goaded into
action. This invisible enemy has achieved this while remaining largely
invisible. If a message was sent it was this 'Come on. Do your worst!'
in the certain knowledge the USA will now strike out in vengeance and,
as it has done so in the past, against the wrong targets. This leads
to an escalation of incomprehensible consequences because the USA will
embark with their trademark swaggering certainty it is acting 'in the
right' even when it isn't. The USA and its allies will embark on a war
against those it sees as responsible in the absence of those it can't
see who are truly responsible. This is a trap of truly epic proportion
that with every girding and readying of the nation for war, propels us
all forward headlong into it. There will be no turning back as the,
rightfully, indignant targets of this mis-placed aggression will be
forced into a battle for their lives. Both sides believing themselves
to be have been done wrong. Both sides rising to the call of a
righteous war. Meanwhile the real perpetrator looks at its remaining
cards in its hand and selects another ace to play.
This kind of genius puts Adolf Hitler to shame, as at least he was a
visible enemy. This action has been taken while being able to predict,
the comparatively bumbling, responses of Dubya, his warlike cabinet
and his intelligence agencies who must now produce results to an
outraged American public. The ability to predict the enemy, to
manoeuvre them, to force them into action and to strike at their
weakest points has broken America. America lies broken and in pain
with a President in tears and preparing to wage war against an enemy,
any enemy, they do not even know, understand or comprehend. America is
a wounded animal, it's hurt, it's howling and it will lash out and it
cannot see how it has been played. This is not the first time America
has been broken, in fact they have a long history of it beginning with
the bloodiest of civil wars. Somalia, Vietnam, the death of JFK and
others have all been unsatisfactory outcomes that served to break the
American spirit and fuel the will to be the winner. This may well be
yet another unsatisfactory outcome in America's long narrative. It is
however also an opportunity to break this repetitious circle once and
for all. Can America do it? Can they put vengeance aside and turn
inward to face its own conscience?
I have heard it mentioned over the last few days of Americans being
asked to ask themselves why they are so hated by so many in the world.
Some news commentators have even pushed US spokesmen to look at their
own foreign policy as a cause for this weeks events. These requests
have been brushed aside in a 'now is not the time' way when now is
very much the time. The United States of America is built on the
principle of Manifest Destiny where the native Americans were
isolated, persecuted and removed from the land in order to make way
for the pioneers. America is built on blood, this was never a
foundation without consequence. This is now very much reflected in the
policy of backing Israel against the Palestinians. This is also a war
fought with very different weapons on each side, because only one side
has weapons. Israel, a nation-state built upon the suffering and abuse
of the Jewish people, cannot now, like an abused child, now abuse
others. Palestinian suicide bombers are a last ditch, desperate
attempt to withstand the oppression of the Israelis. Just as kamikaze
pilots were a last ditch effort from Japan in the final acts of WWII.
Desperation breeds desperate measures, not fanaticism. The Israelis
have proven to be just as fanatical as the Palestinians but you don't
see them blowing themselves up.
We are about to witness a forced move to the right that nobody
actually wants. Only those who have sprung this trap want that. As
civil liberty is pushed aside in favour of security measures we will
all begin to know what it felt like in pre-war Europe in the thirties.
We will be swapping our multi-racial, multi-cultural society for one
where certain races and religions are viewed with distrust and fear.
We will close our doors to those in need of asylum and sanctuary. We
will focus on our own interests and we will defend our freedom at the
cost of the freedom of others. The gap between the haves and the
have-nots will widen ever further.
We are creating our own 'new Jews' for this generation and they will
be the Muslims. It is with great sadness and tragedy that Israel has
not learned the lessons from the horrors they have suffered but now
project fear and persecution onto another people. I am not anti-Jewish
or anti-Israeli but rather agonise in the hope the Israeli people
would make it their number one priority to live in peace and harmony
rather than conflict. Within hours of the events of September 11th
Israeli tanks and bulldozers entered the town of Jenin, and then
Jericho. Isn't this now the time, more than ever before, to cease and
desist? To find a better way? Violence begets violence, Terror begets
Terror. Rather than cancel the peace talks between Shimon Perez and
Yasser Arafat should it not have been enforced? Is it not time to
finally use the unsurpassed military might of the West to come between
those in conflict and 'break it up?' If it isn't then we will just
march blindly on, into the abyss and into the greatest trap the world
has ever seen.
I heard it said by a Wall Street spokesperson that 'the projection of
war' may well save the economy. It is a sad and terrible incitement on
the 'civilised' world that war is good for a flagging economy. Is
there really no better way? Surely this is a time for justice not
vengeance, can we now make the distinction? The events of 11th
September were a desperate and horrifying tragedy but we must attend
to this desperate world that is willing to batter itself and
annihilate itself and others to be heard. We must all work for a
cessation of global conflict not towards creating the largest example
of it the world has seen to date.
If we don't stop and think and ask ourselves 'are we being manoeuvred?
Is this a trap? Is war what these people want? And isn't the art of
war about denying what the enemy wants?' then we must face the
nightmare scenarios of our time that will make the events of last
Tuesday look minor by comparison and loss of life. The dangers of
nuclear, chemical and biological weapons are no less real that what
happened on Tuesday just because they haven't happened yet. We risk
ushering in the end of days if we take the wrong path, if we set off
this trap.
The right way is the hardest, the wrong way is the easiest. If we
follow the path of least resistance we risk descent into hell on
Earth.
Adam
the 'trap' you refer to may well be the country of Afghanistan itself. I'm
just old enough to remember the nightmare Russia had there.
For all you gung-ho GIs out there, Rudyard Kipling offers this advice:
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your Gawd like a soldier."
(quoted in the Times over the weekend)..
regards,
adam
JoJo 埠汗 <jlg...@scotlife.freeserveNOSPAM.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9o5p7b$443$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = http://www.binaries.net
James W. Glass
Osama - the obvious choice (from US internal conditioning), except he is too
reminiscent of Lex Luthor, the diabolical enemy in Superman comics.
Israel - the clear beneficiary of crystallizing US opinion against mid-east
terrorists. Mossad has a history, after all, of subtle, and not so subtle,
actions like this.
Iraq: Mr. Sadly Insane? I think not. He is Mr. "Direct Action".
US coup d'eta? This is too, TOO, over the top. Nevertheless, it has its
attractiveness, particularly Bush's travails in the air, which could have
been done to prevent unknown INTERNAL elements from assinating him.
My vote is Israel. Mossad, or whatever their deep cover is.
Jim
"Adam" <adam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ba66...@corp-goliath.newsgroups.com...
Deborah P. Jackson
Can't eat us"
are you saying they can? AUA JESS! Then all hope is
lost!---(sarcasim)--- These terrorist are not true Muslims, true Muslims
are doing everything they can to get rid of them. No these bastards have
"twisted" themselves into SuperMohammidBinladenMen! They are now capable
of striking terror into the heart of Ala himself. Able to disappear in a
single flash "Boom" along with 5,ooo.oo loving, innocent peace loving
souls. And they're not just simple rapist, and baby killers they're
Father Rapers. They will do what ever SuperMohammidBinladen tells them,
including eat his shit and call it ambrosia!!
Adam <adam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ba66...@corp-goliath.newsgroups.com...
Cuthslay
do not waste your time....
JoJo 埠汗 <jlg...@scotlife.freeserveNOSPAM.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9o5p7b$443$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
click here for advanced sending options
ah, yes...also used as a title-card prologue to the excellent film, THE
BEAST(1988) in which a Russian Tank crew get their asses whupped by a
rag-tag bunch of Mujahadeen Rebels. Since these same folks kicked the shit
out of the superior Ruskies and their hi-tech toys, dont think it couldnt
happen again with US...really an engrossing film-see it...
noxes
forgiveness
> of the murders.
>
> Now we unleash the Dogs Of War to hunt down the murders and justice be
done.
As an eyewitness to the tragedy in New York, I must say it is not the
'terrorists' I fear, it is the ignorant fools like you who howl like hyenas
for blood without understanding the greater context of the situation. If
your barbaric thinking [if it can even be called thinking] prevails we will
all be in hell very soon...
llewxamw
> done.
>
> As an eyewitness to the tragedy in New York, I must say it is not the
> 'terrorists' I fear, it is the ignorant fools like you who howl like
hyenas
> for blood without understanding the greater context of the situation. If
> your barbaric thinking [if it can even be called thinking] prevails we
will
> all be in hell very soon...
Not in a religious manner, but "Amen Brother!"
We need to evolve and be "above" these terrorists level. We are a moral and
advanced nation. We need to act like it or we are just like the other
barbarians. And if we don't start now, when?
Damien
humerous in a dark way at times
"Deborah P. Jackson" <jack...@mlec.net> wrote in message
news:3ba694e6$0$2730$724e...@reader2.ash.ops.us.uu.net...
Damien
what you witnessed and for whatever or whoever you may have lost ...........
those other barbarics who are suffering I can only pity for their naeivity
and bigotry.
"noxes" <no...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FlAp7.26629$n5.33...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
Fletch
wrote:
>too long,
So why quote the whole lot in your reply?
-Fletch
#638
To reply, remove the underpants from my email address.
Say NO to spam.
Woden
I too hope that we exercise a rational response. This includes a
significant effort to resolve the real problems that start the terrorism -
our own government included. But at the same time, we do have to deal with
the existing terrorists and it's seems obvious that the only argument that
will sway many of them is the kind that comes from the business end of an
automatic weapon.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
Paminifarm
Paminifarm.
Very nice, however the reason for all this is: Corporate Society wants to run an
oil-pipe line through Afghanistan, but Laden willnot let them. Follow the money
. .
Truth Hurts: http://www.angelfire.com/ms/3flrgtbnd/revolution.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/3flrgtbnd/notjew.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/3flrgtbnd/christnation.html
Frank Wustner
(snip all)
Ever watch "Slayers"? I would suggest you do. It's a Japanese tv show.
What do you do when you're surrounded by traps? Stand still and do
nothing? Wrong answer. You pick your trap with your eyes open and look
for the easily-escapable back door.
Well, guess what, friend? The U.S. is surrounded by traps right now. If
we go to war, we'll be playing into their hands. If we do not respond in
a strong and unambiguous way, we'll be playing into their hands.
We have to choose which trap we want to spring and walk into it with our
eyes open. That way, we'll be reacting on *our* terms.
Take your choice. War or weak harumphing gestures? Or worse than either
of them, nothing at all? Which would you prefer we do?
Keep this theme in mind when you watch "Slayers".
--
The Deadly Nightshade
http://deadly_nightshade.tripod.com/
http://members.tripod.com/~deadly_nightshade/
|-----------------------------------|-----------------------------------|
|"Advice is a form of nostalgia. | Atheist #119 |
|Dispensing it means fishing the | Knight of BAAWA! |
|past from the disposal, wiping it |-----------------------------------|
|off, painting over the ugly parts, | Want to email me? Go to the URL |
|and recycling it for more than | above and email me from there. |
|it's worth." Mary Schmich |-----------------------------------|
|-----------------------------------|
Douglas Berry
"Adam" <adam...@yahoo.co.uk> warmed at our fire and told this tale:
>far, far too sane Usenet I fear...
>the 'trap' you refer to may well be the country of Afghanistan itself. I'm
>just old enough to remember the nightmare Russia had there.
>For all you gung-ho GIs out there, Rudyard Kipling offers this advice:
Remember that the Afhans had a little help against the Soviets in the
form of millions of dollars in aid and weaponry from the US. Not a
single country is standing with them now.
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Douglas Berry
click here for advanced sending options <seas...@foxinternet.com>
warmed at our fire and told this tale:
>ah, yes...also used as a title-card prologue to the excellent film, THE
>BEAST(1988) in which a Russian Tank crew get their asses whupped by a
>rag-tag bunch of Mujahadeen Rebels. Since these same folks kicked the shit
>out of the superior Ruskies and their hi-tech toys, dont think it couldnt
>happen again with US...really an engrossing film-see it...
One more time: The reason that tank crew got their asses kicked was
no air cover, since anything that flew was subject to enthusastic and
multiple Stinger launches.
Douglas Berry
"noxes" <no...@nyc.rr.com> warmed at our fire and told this tale:
>As an eyewitness to the tragedy in New York, I must say it is not the
>'terrorists' I fear, it is the ignorant fools like you who howl like hyenas
>for blood without understanding the greater context of the situation. If
>your barbaric thinking [if it can even be called thinking] prevails we will
>all be in hell very soon...
OK, explain this in "context."
My 23 year old roommate will be flying back to New York on Thursday.
She will be going to help try and locate a friend, whose only crime
was working for the Bank of America in Tower 1. If he's dead, he
leaves behind a wife, many friends, and a child barely old enough to
understand why Daddy can't read her a bedtime story again tonight.
Explain that in fucking context.
We have been assaulted, thousands of people killed. The times when we
tolerated terrorists have ended. Weep if you will for these monsters,
but I will remind you that it was howling hyenas that took up the
fight against the horrors of fascism.
Douglas Berry
"llewxamw" <llew...@yahoo.com> warmed at our fire and told this
tale:
>We need to evolve and be "above" these terrorists level. We are a moral and
>advanced nation. We need to act like it or we are just like the other
>barbarians. And if we don't start now, when?
When we are all dead? That is ObL's stated goal, you know. Kill as
many Americans as he can, and destroy our nation.
You go sit in a yurt and be evolved. Those of us living in the real
world understand that sometimes war becomes necessary, and must take
place.
Mark Whickman
Douglas Berry <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:t1meqtkpq5heue683...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:36:58 +0200, a wanderer, known to us only as
> "Adam" <adam...@yahoo.co.uk> warmed at our fire and told this tale:
>
> >far, far too sane Usenet I fear...
> >the 'trap' you refer to may well be the country of Afghanistan itself.
I'm
> >just old enough to remember the nightmare Russia had there.
> >For all you gung-ho GIs out there, Rudyard Kipling offers this advice:
>
> Remember that the Afhans had a little help against the Soviets in the
> form of millions of dollars in aid and weaponry from the US. Not a
> single country is standing with them now.
>
from the russian retreat. It may be obsolete but it's still dangerous.
JoJo 埠汗
"Karl Hauwser" <kha...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:ce8fqtsa5auorl6g5...@5xg.com...> As a participant in two wars in defense of freedom and having been a lot
> closer to hell than you have been or ever will be, I can tell you that
your
> kind of thinking that says surrender to the acts and threats of terrorist
> makes me sick. Rather than live in your frightened little rabbits world,
it
> would be better that we were all in hell just so long as we died fighting.
I
> for one do not plan on living as a slave to every towel head that comes
down
> the pike. I suspect that there are many millions of Americans who
> have the same perspective.
>
You're probably right - last Tuesday, I have to admit my instant reaction
was 'nuke the whole lot of 'em, they're religious f***ing nutters and
they'll kill us all without a shred of conscience' but that post was the
only one that made me think 'are we underestimating them?'. So few of us
know their language, their beliefs, their conviction, their culture - yet
they seem totally at ease using ours for their own ends - they use the
internet to communicate in code, their intelligence is spot on, speak our
language, they make tons of cash selling drug crops that probably end up on
our doorstep, yet claim to abhor the westernised way of living. They've
used our technology, our countries and even our own planes to hit out at us.
I just feel like we're being played and they're one step ahead of us - we
have to get ahead.... and quickly, without warning.
JoJo
Deborah P. Jackson
to these unpatriotic fools babble in fear. We are all afraid but
fighting for our FREEDOM has to be done. These terrorist are not just
going to stop, if we don't stop them they will continue to kill us and
run away!. Like I've been saying it's our FREEDOM they hate, it's
something they can't grasp, they fear FREEDOM. We are lucky, to live in
a country where we are FREE, FREE to make our lives better, to have the
right to choose who we want to be and how we want to live!!!! FREEDOM IS
YOUR BIRTHRIGHT AMERICA!!!! Fight for it, fight for the rights of your
children to be FREE!!
Deb
Karl Hauwser <kha...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:ce8fqtsa5auorl6g5...@5xg.com...
On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:47:33 GMT, "noxes" <no...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
As a participant in two wars in defense of freedom and having been a lot
rktectcdm
You and I share very similar opinions on the matter. This is what I
posted to various newsgroups at the same time as your great thesis...
Paul's Letter to the Romans reads, "Dearly Beloved, avenge not
yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written,
Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine
enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing
thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil,
but overcome evil with good."
Though I am only vaguely Christian, I include this quote from Paul's
Letter to the Romans as a counterweight to all the calls for war.
People are even saying that Afghanistan should be nuked back to the
stone age, for God's sake. This Bible quote was the inspiration for
Gandhi's "passive resistance" movement against British occupation of
India, and Dr. King's protest movement in support of civil rights in
this country. But the goals in both cases were activist in
nature--using non-violent resistance to wrongs being perpetrated. If
we in the United States are forced into a protracted, unwinnable war,
which most military and terrorist experts believe this to be--a war
that will only serve to bring more and escalated terrorism down on our
heads--then the only winners of this new war will be the
military-industrial complex and George Dubya's re-election campaign in
2004.
Do we want blood vengeance and a new, powerful martyr or do we want
justice? My point in quoting Paul's letter was to remind us all that
vengeance is God's domain. That leaves humanity with the search for
justice. The Constitution and legal structures of the United States
represent the highest expression of man's relationships and
responsibilities to each other. If we resort to military action in a
situation that demands international legal justice in response to the
contemptible acts of one puny subset of Humanity, then we will
sacrifice our highest aspirations of civilization to the emotions of
brute force.
This is a test of our country's character. For some reason that the
scholars can debate, because we are the oldest and most stable country
existing on the face of the earth, the United States has had to face
these tests quite frequently.
Here is my plan:
Afghanistan has been one of the worst places on the globe to live in
the last few years. The country has been enduring horrible droughts,
which have wiped out the country's crops and economy and forced
millions to flee to neighboring Pakistan for basic sustenance. The
Taliban has ruled by the thumb of Theocracy since 1998, though "ruled"
is an exaggeration since the Taliban have no resources and the country
is essentially an anarchy without food, civilized schools, or hope.
One of the few countries to aid Afghanistan in the past year was the
United States, which gave the Taliban $43 million in emergency aid
last spring. If we invade Afghanistan, I believe its people--with
the exception of the young men of the country, who have been trained
as the next generation of true believers in the fundamentalist
twistings of the Islamic faith--would flee into our arms in relief
from the drought and political/economic turmoil they have endured. But
still, many of our sons and daughters would die in battle in search of
a few twisted fugitives.
War is the "legitimized" use of military force for political purposes.
One might say that the primary difference between war and terrorism is
that terrorists target innocent civilians to achieve their goals.
Still, the ghosts of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki might protest
the legitimacy of that differentiation. Perhaps it would be better
stated that terrorists only represent their own narrow minority views
and are not duly elected or appointed government officials. If so,
does it make any sense to go barreling across the globe, ignoring
national borders and ideas of international law and sovereignty, in
search of a couple hundred delusional Islamic fundamentalists? Is the
only way we can justify such rage-blinded madness to call the thing
War, when in fact it would only continue to make us bullies in the
eyes of the world?
How about this logical syllogism instead:
1. Afghanistan desperately needs food, aid, and relief;
2. We are the richest most civilized country on the globe and have
already approved $40 billion to aid our own casualties and to finance
this new protracted, unwinnable war;
3. We desperately want Usama bin Laden dead or alive, though you know
the politicians and intelligence community of this country desperately
want him ONLY dead--a death sentence without any standards of proof
that any "civilized" country should demand;
4. There is nothing else in Afghanistan that we want, as even their
opium crop has been wiped out by the Taliban;
5. War and invasion would only continue to rain terrorism on our
heads, plus it would parade military and civilian body bags before the
media's cameras;
6. Thus, I offer the world a way out of this blood lust: We should
offer to give Afghanistan $5 billion in emergency aid (food,
medicines, infrastructure reconstruction, etc.) and the promise to
stay out of their affairs in perpetuity in exchange for the safe
extradition of Usama bin Laden and, say, ten of his cronies of our
choosing, so that we might put them on trial in front of the world for
crimes committed--certainly the trial of the century though it has
only begun!
America has always used the stick with Middle Eastern countries:
embargoes, for example, that rarely resulted in even a short-term
solution (re: Saddam Hussein). Maybe now it's time to live up to
our reputation as the most civilized and compassionate country in the
land, and try the carrot instead. Let's feed Afghanistan, give
them drink and our guarantee to their national sovereignty, and in so
doing heap coals on the heads of Al-Qaeda. Let's overcome evil with
good.
Curt Marwitz, Architect
http://www.namingthewinds.com
JoJo 埠汗
buy at the Supermarket with your loyalty card, every time you hand over your
credit card, every time you use your bank account, use the internet. You
can be listened to when you speak on the phone, talk face to face with
friends, hell you can be spied on by satellite. The people who illegally
stay in your country, brought there by the illusion of this freedom, the
ones that remain anonymous - they are the ones that are really free. And
these 'free' people are the ones who have done this terrible thing to you.
I'm not disagreeing with your reactions Deborah, they're honest reactions
that everyone who witnessed Tuesday's terror must feel to some degree, but
you've got to know your enemy to defeat it - that is what America needs to
do.
JoJo
"Deborah P. Jackson" <jack...@mlec.net> wrote in message
news:3ba7c618$0$8566$724e...@reader2.ash.ops.us.uu.net...
JoJo 埠汗
was posted by 'geoff' on the uk-current-events-us-bombing newsgroup. I had
always been of the 'nuke the lot' opinion before I read that one post which
really made me think. There is absolutely no doubt that last Tuesday can go
unpunished - it can never be justified, not by religion, history, hatred,
nothing! But the targets must be accurate and America must show its
compassion towards people who are suffering. I believe (I do not know as I
have not seen it first-hand) that some people in the middle-east are
brainwashed by their leaders into hating the west - can we not show
compassion and gradually inform these people that we are no threat to their
beliefs, their way of living, their choices, their 'freedom'.
I live in the UK and was shamed by the news story that an Afghan taxi-driver
had been beaten so badly in London by three young 'men' that he was
paralysed. This man probably sought refuge in England, a safe haven?, as he
had faced horrors we cannot even think of in Afghanistan. We slag off the
refugees that come to the UK but how difficult must it be to uproot their
families with just the clothes on their back, flee thousands of miles to a
country they know nothing about, whose language they cannot speak. What
horrors have they left behind to make this new life so attractive - because
it would scare the shit out of me.
I'm rambling now, please forgive me. I hope America deals with this
situation wisely and we can all eventually think back and be proud.
JoJo
"rktectcdm" <rkte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f127c48.0109...@posting.google.com...
Mark Borok
<jlg...@scotlife.freeserveNOSPAM.co.uk> wrote:
> "Karl Hauwser" <kha...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:ce8fqtsa5auorl6g5...@5xg.com...
> > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:47:33 GMT, "noxes" <no...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > As a participant in two wars in defense of freedom and having been a lot
> > closer to hell than you have been or ever will be, I can tell you that
> your
> > kind of thinking that says surrender to the acts and threats of terrorist
> > makes me sick. Rather than live in your frightened little rabbits world,
> it
> > would be better that we were all in hell just so long as we died fighting.
> I
> > for one do not plan on living as a slave to every towel head that comes
> down
> > the pike. I suspect that there are many millions of Americans who
> > have the same perspective.
> >
>
> You're probably right - last Tuesday, I have to admit my instant reaction
> was 'nuke the whole lot of 'em, they're religious f***ing nutters and
> they'll kill us all without a shred of conscience' but that post was the
> only one that made me think 'are we underestimating them?'. So few of us
> know their language, their beliefs, their conviction, their culture
Um, I think we can dig up a few experts here and there.
- yet
> they seem totally at ease using ours for their own ends - they use the
> internet to communicate in code, their intelligence is spot on, speak our
> language, they make tons of cash selling drug crops that probably end up on
> our doorstep, yet claim to abhor the westernised way of living. They've
> used our technology, our countries and even our own planes to hit out at us.
So could anyone. It don't take too much brainpower.
> I just feel like we're being played and they're one step ahead of us - we
> have to get ahead.... and quickly, without warning.
>
> JoJo
That's exactly how they want you to feel. Because there was a lapse in
our intelligence, don't underestimate its capabilities, esp. when
combined with intelligence from our allies. The whole hogwash about
lashing out blindly with carpet bombings is way off-base. It's been
said many times already that "this will be a covert war". We may want
the Afghanis to think that we are crazy enough to bomb their already
war-ravaged country into even further ruin, but our military is not a
bunch of cowboys and Rambos; these are professionals who have studied
strategy. They have recourse to the expertise of the best minds of two
hemispheres. They're already lining up a coalition, not going it alone.
The stupidity of saying "America has already lost" when we have only
been hit once is unbelievable. Inflating the terrorist threat into some
sinister, unstoppable, invincible force just because they managed to
hijack four planes out of airports with negligible security is sinking
into total, idiotic hysteria. The Japanese bombed our Pacific fleet and
we recovered in record time. Hitler did untold damage to the Red Army,
and they came back with overwhelming force. Some terrorists bomb a few
of our buildings while we were unprepared and suddenly we have to throw
in the towel. They can't be stopped! Sheesh, if that were the case,
then Israel wouldn't exist any more. A group of people who can't deal
with one country the size of New Jersey have brought the entire Western
world to its knees in one day? Get a grip.
--Mark
Lee
noxes
>
> My 23 year old roommate will be flying back to New York on Thursday.
> She will be going to help try and locate a friend, whose only crime
> was working for the Bank of America in Tower 1. If he's dead, he
> leaves behind a wife, many friends, and a child barely old enough to
> understand why Daddy can't read her a bedtime story again tonight.
>
> Explain that in fucking context.
I saw burning people jumping out of buildings to thier death. I witnessed
the towers collapsing. I've been down in the rubble. There is no 'context'
to that in the way you mean - it is horror. What I refer to is the
systematic US foreign policy failure that resulted in this massacre. Anger
is natural on an individual level, but before we go bombing the f*ck out of
people, it might be better to undrstand why this happened. A few pointers to
the uninformed:
1. US backing of autocratic regimes in the Islamic world that keep the
general populace in abject poverty [i.e. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Sudan,
Palestinians, the list goes on...]
2. Being a party to depraved indifference during cold war struggles - see
above list & many others outside the middle east.
3. Continued military occupation of Saudi Arabia ten years after the fact of
the Gulf War.
4. Continued US backing of the Israeli slaughter & occupaction in Palestine.
Need I continue... Diplomatic solutions have been thwarted by this country.
They have no military solution. They are oppressed by our continued idiotic
policies. What can they do?
Again, I will replay the horror in my head for my entire life, but I blame
whose to blame, the US.
Justice must certainly be served - in international courts - but we must end
our swaggering stance, we must seek to build & become part of a world
community.
noxes
> As a participant in two wars in defense of freedom and having been a lot
> closer to hell than you have been or ever will be, I can tell you that
your
> kind of thinking that says surrender to the acts and threats of terrorist
> makes me sick. Rather than live in your frightened little rabbits world,
it
> would be better that we were all in hell just so long as we died fighting.
I
> for one do not plan on living as a slave to every towel head that comes
down
> the pike. I suspect that there are many millions of Americans who
> have the same perspective.
>
For them, this is also a war of liberation. Look at prior response for
details.
noxes
"Deborah P. Jackson" <jack...@mlec.net> wrote in message
news:3ba7c618$0$8566$724e...@reader2.ash.ops.us.uu.net...
> to these unpatriotic fools babble in fear. We are all afraid but
> fighting for our FREEDOM has to be done. These terrorist are not just
> going to stop, if we don't stop them they will continue to kill us and
> run away!. Like I've been saying it's our FREEDOM they hate, it's
> something they can't grasp, they fear FREEDOM. We are lucky, to live in
> a country where we are FREE, FREE to make our lives better, to have the
> right to choose who we want to be and how we want to live!!!! FREEDOM IS
> YOUR BIRTHRIGHT AMERICA!!!! Fight for it, fight for the rights of your
> children to be FREE!!
> Deb
>
extend the prospect of justice imminent within democracy to the world.
However, that prospect of justice involves the alleviation of the causes of
injustice, not barbaric vengence.
noxes
> It's time to rid ourselves of the barbaric,
Their thinking is no more barbaric then the general tenor of the country
right now.
Adrian Barnett
a...@pacific.net wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:46:32 GMT, Paminifarm <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Very nice, however the reason for all this is: Corporate Society wants to run an
>>oil-pipe line through Afghanistan, but Laden willnot let them. Follow the money
>>
>>
>
> Where do you fucking loons hang out when the conspiracy shops and rumor
> mills are closed? Do you simply lurk in the shadows like a bunch of goddamn
> roaches waiting for something rotten to be thrown your way so you all come
> out and feast - How one's brain could ever reach a point of dipshitedness
> that you crackpots demonstrate is a wonder of human digression.
rotfl. Concise and to the point. :)
--
--
Adrian BAAWA aa#128
Website : http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/
Message boards : http://pub45.ezboard.com/bwastelandofwonders
Joan Broneske
--
/
Joan Broneske /(-\
uni...@softcom.net ,__ / '-'
/()__)
'// \\
'' ''
"Adrian Barnett" <adr...@abarnett.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3BA8B399...@abarnett.demon.co.uk...
rktectcdm
> Good idea give then money Your insane !
Who said money? I said, "$5 billion in emergency aid (food, medicines,
infrastructure reconstruction, etc.)"
You're a poor reader.
Adam
who have died in Iraq over the last 9-10 years as a direct result of US and
British imposed sanctions (not supported anymore by U.N.).
And if you don't believe me on that just go to www.unicef.org and read the
statistics for yourself (type Iraq in search).
I grew up in a town continually bombed by the IRA (significantly funded by
Americans.. should they be attacked?) throughout my childhood. Unlike some
people in this ng, I don't find it funny to print a 'weather forecast'
suggesting Belfast or Dublin should be given the Hiroshima treatment, just
because there are some evil people in that area of the world.
there is evil all over the place, sadly.
adamnews:wzVp7.29899$A5.46...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> > OK, explain this in "context."
> >
______________________________________________________________________________
Doug Berry
"Mark Whickman" <markwh...@blackfortress.freeserve.co.uk>,
wrote thusly:
>Douglas Berry <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:t1meqtkpq5heue683...@4ax.com...
>> Remember that the Afghans had a little help against the Soviets in the
>> form of millions of dollars in aid and weaponry from the US. Not a
>> single country is standing with them now.
>>
>But they've still got a lot of equipment. Both from donations and scavenged
>from the russian retreat. It may be obsolete but it's still dangerous.
At this point, no. Remember that the Iraqis had Russian
equipment, first-line stuff, to face us in 1991.
We didn't lose a single armored vehicle, and less than 200 killed
in action. They lost thousands of tanks, and tens of thousands
killed.
I seriously doubt that the Afghans have much of a force that
could resist a conventional war, and since Vietnam, we've honed
our ability to fight guerilla wars.
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Conspiracy theory is the sophistication of the ignorant."
-Richard Grenier
Hi! I'm a .sig virus! Join the fun and copy me into yours! :)
Doug Berry
"noxes" <no...@nyc.rr.com>, wrote thusly:
>1. US backing of autocratic regimes in the Islamic world that keep the
>general populace in abject poverty [i.e. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Sudan,
>Palestinians, the list goes on...]
So, we should instead invade and force democracies on them?
Redistribute wealth at gun point? I thought the world didn't
want us to play global cop, that the world wanted us to mind our
own business.
For better or worse, the Middle East is the source of a valuable
resource, oil. And we will do what is necessary to insure that
our nation has enough oil.
>2. Being a party to depraved indifference during cold war struggles - see
>above list & many others outside the middle east.
Oddly enough, I seem to recall that we were in the middle of the
Cold War, being one of the two main participants. Would you have
preferred Soviet-style communism as a world government? You are
the one complaining about autocratic, oppressive governments!
>3. Continued military occupation of Saudi Arabia ten years after the fact of
>the Gulf War.
It isn't an occupation if you are invited in. The government of
the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia asked us to provide an increased
military presence.
>4. Continued US backing of the Israeli slaughter & occupaction in Palestine.
Israel is a nation. We recognize that nation. And oddly enough,
it seems to be the Palestinians who are doing the atrocities
there.. blowing up cars in crowded markets, hijacking planes,
setting off suicide bombs inside buses. Why don't you comment on
those acts? Tell me, can you legitimize the Munich '72 takeover?
>Need I continue... Diplomatic solutions have been thwarted by this country.
>They have no military solution. They are oppressed by our continued idiotic
>policies. What can they do?
Well, at this point, they can die.
>Again, I will replay the horror in my head for my entire life, but I blame
>whose to blame, the US.
"Your honor, I did rape that woman. But she was asking for it by
wearing a short skirt."
Sorry, but blaming the victim is just sick.
But let's assume for just a moment that you have a point...
there are over 5,000 people missing or dead in New York. How
many of them had direct influence on US foreign policy? How many
of them had served in Saudi Arabia? How many of them are
actually involved?
I used to be a sniper. With a few weeks training, you can learn
to hit a target out to 800m. So if they are so ticked off about
our foreign policy, why not attack the people who make it?
The truth that you don't want to face is that the people who did
this are evil. You have this "noble peasant" filter on, where
anybody poor is the good guy. Well, Osama bin-Laden isn't poor.
He's rich as fuck. and he has stated that his only goal is to
kill Americans.
For that he, and any state that supports him, will be crushed.
Remember Carthage?
>Justice must certainly be served - in international courts - but we must end
>our swaggering stance, we must seek to build & become part of a world
>community.
The crime was committed inside the United States on US flagged
airliners. Please tell why anything but the courts of the US,
the states of New York and Pennsylvania, and the Commonwealth of
Virginia would have jurisdiction.
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
Doug Berry
"Adam" <adam...@yahoo.co.uk>, wrote thusly:
>yes and don't forget the 500,000 (yes that's right, half a million) children
>who have died in Iraq over the last 9-10 years as a direct result of US and
>British imposed sanctions (not supported anymore by U.N.).
>And if you don't believe me on that just go to www.unicef.org and read the
>statistics for yourself (type Iraq in search).
And if the Government of Iraq would live up to the cease-fire
terms in signed in 1991, the sanctions would end. Very simple,
really.
>I grew up in a town continually bombed by the IRA (significantly funded by
>Americans.. should they be attacked?) throughout my childhood. Unlike some
>people in this ng, I don't find it funny to print a 'weather forecast'
>suggesting Belfast or Dublin should be given the Hiroshima treatment, just
>because there are some evil people in that area of the world.
Did the government of the United States knowingly provide
sancturary to the IRA, or was the support hat=passing in Irish
neighborhoods? There is an important difference there.
We are going after those states that willingly provided
terrorists a base of action, and direct support. We are going to
make it clear that we will not tolerate this activity any more,
anywhere.
Did you know that the IRA was sheltered and trained by Libya for
many years? It gave them a place to hide, and learn new ways to
kill people. How many of those bombs do you think would have
gone off if they had no place to run to, no one to shelter them,
no state funneling them supplies and support? If the IRA had to
live on the run in Ireland, how long do you think they's styand
up to a complete assault?
>there is evil all over the place, sadly.
And we are going to smack them down so hard that the entire world
will see and learn.
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
Lee
LED
--
LED
www.newyorkled.com
"Be not afraid of growing slowly,
be afraid only of standing still"
<a...@pacific.net> wrote in message
news:r2jfqtsm3tdgi6leg...@5xg.com...
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:46:32 GMT, Paminifarm <nos...@newsranger.com>
wrote:
>
> >Very nice, however the reason for all this is: Corporate Society wants to
run an
> >oil-pipe line through Afghanistan, but Laden willnot let them. Follow the
money
> >
>
> Where do you fucking loons hang out when the conspiracy shops and rumor
> mills are closed? Do you simply lurk in the shadows like a bunch of
goddamn
> roaches waiting for something rotten to be thrown your way so you all come
> out and feast - How one's brain could ever reach a point of dipshitedness
> that you crackpots demonstrate is a wonder of human digression.
>
> >Truth Hurts:
>
> That makes us very safe around the likes of you doesn't it. You are not
> likely to hurt anyone. You wouldn't know truth if it stuck its dick in
your
> ear!
Bob's Big Gator
Give me a couple days. I'm gonna paste a pic of bin-boy into a Ford Excursion.
What a riot.
Follow the money.
Bob's Big Gator
Paminifarm wrote:
> Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:04:08 +1200 Hello, from America's Sole, Christian Activist,
> Paminifarm.
> >
> >Correct .......... and all trained and funded by the CIA. Life can be quite
> >humerous in a dark way at times
> >
> >
> >"Deborah P. Jackson" <jack...@mlec.net> wrote in message
> >news:3ba694e6$0$2730$724e...@reader2.ash.ops.us.uu.net...
> >> OH! Dude, I thought at first of the saying " They can kill us but they
> >> Can't eat us"
> >> are you saying they can? AUA JESS! Then all hope is
> >> lost!---(sarcasim)--- These terrorist are not true Muslims, true Muslims
> >> are doing everything they can to get rid of them. No these bastards have
> >> "twisted" themselves into SuperMohammidBinladenMen! They are now capable
> >> of striking terror into the heart of Ala himself. Able to disappear in a
> >> single flash "Boom" along with 5,ooo.oo loving, innocent peace loving
> >> souls. And they're not just simple rapist, and baby killers they're
> >> Father Rapers. They will do what ever SuperMohammidBinladen tells them,
> >> including eat his shit and call it ambrosia!!
> >>
> >>
> >> Adam <adam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:3ba66...@corp-goliath.newsgroups.com...
> >> far, far too sane Usenet I fear...
> >> the 'trap' you refer to may well be the country of Afghanistan itself.
> >> I'm
> >> just old enough to remember the nightmare Russia had there.
> >> For all you gung-ho GIs out there, Rudyard Kipling offers this advice:
> >>
> >> "When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
> >> And the women come out to cut up what remains,
> >> Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
> >> And go to your Gawd like a soldier."
> >> (quoted in the Times over the weekend)..
> >>
> >> regards,
> >> adam
> >>
> >> JoJo 埠汗 <jlg...@scotlife.freeserveNOSPAM.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:9o5p7b$443$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >> > This is a newsgroup post I read in uk.current-events.us-bombing,
> >> hopefully
> >> > geoff won't mind me forwarding it on - what are everyone's thoughts on
> >> its
> >> > contents?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The Path of Least Resistance
> >> >
> >> > Almost as soon as the events of September 11th unfolded to an
> >> > unsuspecting America, the words flowed out: 'This means War!' With the
> >> > fires still burning and the emergency services unable to cope with the
> >> > scale of the tragedy, it was war. The clear and present failure of the
> >> > CIA and FBI to foresee this calamity or head it off once the initial
> >> > hijacking became known, was strangely juxtaposed against the certain
> >> > and absolute knowledge of who was responsible - the Saudi dissident
> >> > Osama Bin Laden. On the one hand these planes, hijacked and driven
> >> > into symbols of America by persons unknown, without warning. On the
> >> > other, the knowledge it could only be one man, living in the remotest
> >> > of places. This means war - but what does that mean? We are told this
> >> > is a war of civilisations, an attack on freedom but how can anybody
> >> > even know enough for these obtuse abstractions? All any of us could
> >> > surmise from the horror of the day was this: A sudden and suicidal
> >> > strike on the symbols of American economic and military might. Surely
> >> > to 'know' any more than this suggests foreknowledge which was so
> >> > clearly and tragically absent. Every sane observer to the events of
> >> > last Tuesday was shocked by what happened but, if we reach deep inside
> >> > ourselves, were we really surprised that the world has come to this?
> >> >
> >> > Last year when George W. Bush became President of the world's last
> >> > superpower in the most dubious and acrimonious election the USA has
> >> > ever seen, what did you think? I recall, as soon as his cabinet
> >> > line-up became known, that it was the same faces as those who brought
> >> > us the Gulf War. Bush (albeit Dubya), Cheney and Colin Powell. I
> >> > remember, back then, thinking this would mean some kind of 'finishing
> >> > off what was started' ten years ago now. I imagine Saddam Hussein felt
> >> > some sense of deja-vu as he saw this latest George Bush and the old
> >> > Cheney, Colin Powell set take up their positions in Washington. I
> >> > remember thinking with certainty there would now be another Gulf War.
> >> > Gulf War II - This time it's what? There was much horseplay about
> >> > Dubya's lack of any kind of handle on foreign policy and much warning
> >> > given that he was little more than a puppet for shadowy, corporate
> >> > interests. His amusing yet alarming personal displays of ignorance and
> >> > oversimplifications made people wonder how such a man could be
> >> > entrusted with the highest office on Earth. I think many believed at
> >> > the time of the election it would be somehow proven he had not
> >> > actually won the Presidency. Proof that never came.
> >> >
> >> > The one strand of continuity from his father's heralding in of the
> >> > 'Read my lips, New World Order' was that despite Desert Storm and
> >> > Desert Shield and ten years of continuous bombing - Saddam Hussein was
> >> > still very much there. Clinton had come and gone, if you'll excuse the
> >> > double entendre, and now Bush, Cheney and Colin Powell were back. Ok
> >> > so it was Dubya and not Senior but hell, when the election campaign
> >> > started a lot of people thought it was Senior anyway!
> >> >
> >> > Coming back to the present - Fifty thousand reservists are called up,
> >> > America's young are signing up, the fleets and instruments of war are
> >> > being deployed. War it is, and yet, war against whom? A terrorist
> >> > organisation is very different to a state. It has no borders, it
> >> > operates, can only operate, from the shadows. Just who will the USA
> >> > prosecute a war against? 'Whoever it damn well likes' and 'If we
> >> > overreact then tough' are simply not good enough. The USA maintains by
> >> > far the greatest capacity for destruction our world has ever known and
> >> > yet, ironically, these weapons are ineffective against a terrorist
> >> > organisation or network of organisations. This is going to be a war
> >> > against whoever America wishes to include. Are they going to cherry
> >> > pick their enemies? Is this a war against the usual suspects as it
> >> > appears to be: Iraq, Osama Bin Laden, Sudan, Libya etc. We've already
> >> > heard the hijackers and suspects, some at least, were Egyptian, Omani
> >> > and from the United Arab Emirates - yet somehow I don't see America
> >> > targeting these countries.
> >> >
> >> > It has been said this is a crusade. Will this develop into a war
> >> > against Islam? Tony Blair is at pains to assure us it will not.
> >> > However, is it really up to him? Or the USA? If the targets of this
> >> > war are to be a cherry picked list of Islamic states then surely we
> >> > must ask ourselves how will Islam respond. We in the West do not have
> >> > a monopoly on crusades, holy wars or Jihad. Isn't this how we got into
> >> > this awful mess in the first place? Is this not an increasingly
> >> > vicious circle we are now in danger of spiralling around and around?
> >> > Historically the crusades that began a thousand years ago achieved
> >> > very little apart from lakes of blood in the Middle East. A flashpoint
> >> > ever since continuing to demand lives from all those involved. Worse
> >> > yet and similar to Spartacus - do we not risk the creation of
> >> > thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of Osama Bin
> >> > Ladens by prosecuting a war on Islam? However much we say this won't
> >> > be war on Islam itself it will be Islam itself that decides whether it
> >> > is.
> >> >
> >> > If not a war on Islam then, again, the question must be 'A war on
> >> > whom?' Will it only be countries without a chain of Macdonalds who are
> >> > targeted? Is this what James Rubin means when he calls for a war of
> >> > civilisations? We certainly won't be attacking any rich Arab nations
> >> > such as Kuwait, Saudi, the UAE or Oman. So does this mean we will only
> >> > be attacking poor countries? Only those who can't fight back? Will we
> >> > only be attacking unwesternised countries and once all this is over,
> >> > if anyone at all is left alive, will these places then be westernised?
> >> >
> >> > If this is to be, as we are told, a war against terrorism then does
> >> > this include Northern Ireland and the IRA or the real IRA? Will it
> >> > include ETA? I think not. Then this won't be a war against global
> >> > terrorism. It will be a selective war against selective targets,
> >> > dressed up as a war against terrorism. What then will this 'war' in
> >> > fact be? What is the real umbrella these targets will fall under? Who
> >> > is the enemy? The rhetoric only serves to confuse the issue further
> >> > and this is truly at the heart of problem. How can anyone declare war
> >> > on an unknown and potentially unknowable enemy?
> >> >
> >> > If we return to the failure of the most powerful intelligence agencies
> >> > in the world we can perhaps begin to see how the shadows are never as
> >> > black or the light as white as we would prefer. Billions of dollars
> >> > are spent every year on 'Intelligence'. Known terrorist organisations
> >> > are exposed to constant satellite, electronic and human surveillance -
> >> > including the so called prime suspect and his network of networks.
> >> > Yet, out of the blue sky death rained down on America, using its own
> >> > domestic objects against them. Heads have not yet rolled in the CIA or
> >> > FBI. The sheer amount of shared intelligence through the worlds
> >> > agencies didn't flag this up - the largest and most daring terrorist
> >> > attack in the world. I am not the only one who finds this hard if not
> >> > impossible to believe. There are many interests at stake here. Our own
> >> > security services have deliberately not shared everything with the USA
> >> > on several occasions. If Mossad, the notoriously ruthless Israeli
> >> > intelligence agency, had forewarning would they have passed it on? Or
> >> > would they have allowed it to proceed in the certain knowledge it
> >> > would ultimately further their own cause by forcing the USA to step up
> >> > to the plate and respond. Hypothetical? Perhaps.
> >> >
> >> > The other failure of intelligence, apart from co-operation, continues
> >> > as the FBI round up dozens of 'suspects' and then let them go again.
> >> > Despite Osama Bin Laden's network having been under such considerable
> >> > scrutiny since the first World Trade Centre bombing - None of his
> >> > known operatives have been picked up. The FBI have to date released
> >> > all but one of these suspects and other countries have followed suit
> >> > in Europe. They pick up Arabic suspects, shake them down and let them
> >> > go again without charge. The failure of intelligence will continue for
> >> > as long as it concentrates on being seen to be doing something,
> >> > anything, but is in fact only chasing it's tail. Meanwhile of course,
> >> > the perpetrators continue to go undetected and unpunished. Despite the
> >> > apparent visibility of the FBI in their media raids on hotels and
> >> > planes about to depart - the invisibility of the enemy remains
> >> > palpably evident. All the billions, all the personnel, all the
> >> > high-tech equipment and weapons of war did not stop what happened on
> >> > Tuesday and has achieved absolutely nothing since. In fact it has
> >> > managed to deepen the sense of indignation of the wrongly arrested and
> >> > falsely accused and stirred up more and more racially motivated
> >> > tension.
> >> >
> >> > When this is compared to the sheer evil genius of the perpetrators and
> >> > the scale and precision of this act of utter terror it seems the
> >> > greatest nation on Earth is being seriously outclassed. The
> >> > professionals in this grim scenario, awful truth that it is, have been
> >> > the fanatical perpetrators. Unable to tackle the might of the USA head
> >> > on they have taken their strategies from 'the Art of War' to prosecute
> >> > their attack by other means. Compared to the enormous loss of innocent
> >> > life and billions in dollars as well as the inestimable damage to the
> >> > human psyche, these people used knives. Fanatics they may have been
> >> > but the dark intelligence at work has run rings around the
> >> > intelligence community - many of whom were on the West coast holding
> >> > their annual conference. The timing, the preparation, the selection of
> >> > targets all go to show we are dealing with an enemy capable of such
> >> > evil, such stupefying evil genius that it has put the so called
> >> > intelligence community at an extreme disadvantage.
> >> >
> >> > To truly understand this we must look at what really happened on
> >> > September 11th. We must look beyond the obvious and total horror felt
> >> > by us all and we must try and make out this new landscape that
> >> > confronts us all. I do not congratulate the brilliance of the
> >> > perpetrators in carrying out their plan of terror, only attempt to
> >> > 'draw attention to their intelligence' because it has been this
> >> > ability to strike completely out of leftfield which makes this event
> >> > so ominous of further looming dangers. To react in the 'same old way'
> >> > is simply not on the menu. This action, death toll shattering that it
> >> > is apart, was an act of provocation. This is the first card played
> >> > from a poker hand made up of aces. America is being goaded into
> >> > action. This invisible enemy has achieved this while remaining largely
> >> > invisible. If a message was sent it was this 'Come on. Do your worst!'
> >> > in the certain knowledge the USA will now strike out in vengeance and,
> >> > as it has done so in the past, against the wrong targets. This leads
> >> > to an escalation of incomprehensible consequences because the USA will
> >> > embark with their trademark swaggering certainty it is acting 'in the
> >> > right' even when it isn't. The USA and its allies will embark on a war
> >> > against those it sees as responsible in the absence of those it can't
> >> > see who are truly responsible. This is a trap of truly epic proportion
> >> > that with every girding and readying of the nation for war, propels us
> >> > all forward headlong into it. There will be no turning back as the,
> >> > rightfully, indignant targets of this mis-placed aggression will be
> >> > forced into a battle for their lives. Both sides believing themselves
> >> > to be have been done wrong. Both sides rising to the call of a
> >> > righteous war. Meanwhile the real perpetrator looks at its remaining
> >> > cards in its hand and selects another ace to play.
> >> >
> >> > This kind of genius puts Adolf Hitler to shame, as at least he was a
> >> > visible enemy. This action has been taken while being able to predict,
> >> > the comparatively bumbling, responses of Dubya, his warlike cabinet
> >> > and his intelligence agencies who must now produce results to an
> >> > outraged American public. The ability to predict the enemy, to
> >> > manoeuvre them, to force them into action and to strike at their
> >> > weakest points has broken America. America lies broken and in pain
> >> > with a President in tears and preparing to wage war against an enemy,
> >> > any enemy, they do not even know, understand or comprehend. America is
> >> > a wounded animal, it's hurt, it's howling and it will lash out and it
> >> > cannot see how it has been played. This is not the first time America
> >> > has been broken, in fact they have a long history of it beginning with
> >> > the bloodiest of civil wars. Somalia, Vietnam, the death of JFK and
> >> > others have all been unsatisfactory outcomes that served to break the
> >> > American spirit and fuel the will to be the winner. This may well be
> >> > yet another unsatisfactory outcome in America's long narrative. It is
> >> > however also an opportunity to break this repetitious circle once and
> >> > for all. Can America do it? Can they put vengeance aside and turn
> >> > inward to face its own conscience?
> >> >
> >> > I have heard it mentioned over the last few days of Americans being
> >> > asked to ask themselves why they are so hated by so many in the world.
> >> > Some news commentators have even pushed US spokesmen to look at their
> >> > own foreign policy as a cause for this weeks events. These requests
> >> > have been brushed aside in a 'now is not the time' way when now is
> >> > very much the time. The United States of America is built on the
> >> > principle of Manifest Destiny where the native Americans were
> >> > isolated, persecuted and removed from the land in order to make way
> >> > for the pioneers. America is built on blood, this was never a
> >> > foundation without consequence. This is now very much reflected in the
> >> > policy of backing Israel against the Palestinians. This is also a war
> >> > fought with very different weapons on each side, because only one side
> >> > has weapons. Israel, a nation-state built upon the suffering and abuse
> >> > of the Jewish people, cannot now, like an abused child, now abuse
> >> > others. Palestinian suicide bombers are a last ditch, desperate
> >> > attempt to withstand the oppression of the Israelis. Just as kamikaze
> >> > pilots were a last ditch effort from Japan in the final acts of WWII.
> >> > Desperation breeds desperate measures, not fanaticism. The Israelis
> >> > have proven to be just as fanatical as the Palestinians but you don't
> >> > see them blowing themselves up.
> >> >
> >> > We are about to witness a forced move to the right that nobody
> >> > actually wants. Only those who have sprung this trap want that. As
> >> > civil liberty is pushed aside in favour of security measures we will
> >> > all begin to know what it felt like in pre-war Europe in the thirties.
> >> > We will be swapping our multi-racial, multi-cultural society for one
> >> > where certain races and religions are viewed with distrust and fear.
> >> > We will close our doors to those in need of asylum and sanctuary. We
> >> > will focus on our own interests and we will defend our freedom at the
> >> > cost of the freedom of others. The gap between the haves and the
> >> > have-nots will widen ever further.
> >> >
> >> > We are creating our own 'new Jews' for this generation and they will
> >> > be the Muslims. It is with great sadness and tragedy that Israel has
> >> > not learned the lessons from the horrors they have suffered but now
> >> > project fear and persecution onto another people. I am not anti-Jewish
> >> > or anti-Israeli but rather agonise in the hope the Israeli people
> >> > would make it their number one priority to live in peace and harmony
> >> > rather than conflict. Within hours of the events of September 11th
> >> > Israeli tanks and bulldozers entered the town of Jenin, and then
> >> > Jericho. Isn't this now the time, more than ever before, to cease and
> >> > desist? To find a better way? Violence begets violence, Terror begets
> >> > Terror. Rather than cancel the peace talks between Shimon Perez and
> >> > Yasser Arafat should it not have been enforced? Is it not time to
> >> > finally use the unsurpassed military might of the West to come between
> >> > those in conflict and 'break it up?' If it isn't then we will just
> >> > march blindly on, into the abyss and into the greatest trap the world
> >> > has ever seen.
> >> >
> >> > I heard it said by a Wall Street spokesperson that 'the projection of
> >> > war' may well save the economy. It is a sad and terrible incitement on
> >> > the 'civilised' world that war is good for a flagging economy. Is
> >> > there really no better way? Surely this is a time for justice not
> >> > vengeance, can we now make the distinction? The events of 11th
> >> > September were a desperate and horrifying tragedy but we must attend
> >> > to this desperate world that is willing to batter itself and
> >> > annihilate itself and others to be heard. We must all work for a
> >> > cessation of global conflict not towards creating the largest example
> >> > of it the world has seen to date.
> >> >
> >> > If we don't stop and think and ask ourselves 'are we being manoeuvred?
> >> > Is this a trap? Is war what these people want? And isn't the art of
> >> > war about denying what the enemy wants?' then we must face the
> >> > nightmare scenarios of our time that will make the events of last
> >> > Tuesday look minor by comparison and loss of life. The dangers of
> >> > nuclear, chemical and biological weapons are no less real that what
> >> > happened on Tuesday just because they haven't happened yet. We risk
> >> > ushering in the end of days if we take the wrong path, if we set off
> >> > this trap.
> >> >
> >> > The right way is the hardest, the wrong way is the easiest. If we
> >> > follow the path of least resistance we risk descent into hell on
> >> > Earth.
> >> ______
> >> Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION =
> >> http://www.binaries.net
> >>
>
> Very nice, however the reason for all this is: Corporate Society wants to run an
> oil-pipe line through Afghanistan, but Laden willnot let them. Follow the money
> . .
>
> Truth Hurts: http://www.angelfire.com/ms/3flrgtbnd/revolution.html
> http://www.angelfire.com/ms/3flrgtbnd/notjew.html
> http://www.angelfire.com/ms/3flrgtbnd/christnation.html
Bob's Big Gator
There is a rat. If you crap on it's churches long enough and plunder its wealth
long enough and give it the distinct impression that it's backed into a corner,
pal, you are gonna see some nasty rat-shit. Real nasty. This isn't rocket
science.
Stay Tuned For More Lessons From The Animal Kingdom: including,
"Fire Ants: Can They Be Exterminated Completely"
Bob's Big Gator
Mark Whickman
Doug Berry <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:j8tkqtk8f5oi6sc2r...@4ax.com...
> And lo, it came to pass on Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:50:22 +0100 that
> "Mark Whickman" <markwh...@blackfortress.freeserve.co.uk>,
> wrote thusly:
>
> >Douglas Berry <grid...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >news:t1meqtkpq5heue683...@4ax.com...
>
> >> Remember that the Afghans h