Artists Defeat Ghouliani in Court - Again
Freedom Fighter
by Robert Lederman - President of A.R.T.I.S.T.
(Artists' Response To Illegal State Tactics)
http://baltech.org/lederman/
As he leaves office Mayor Giuliani has been handed yet another rebuff from
the court system over his eight year campaign to take away the First
Amendment rights of NYC street artists. The Mayor's appeal to the NY State
Supreme Court in a long-standing criminal case, People v Balmuth and People
v Christiano, has been denied.
In an order published on 12/27/2001 NY State's highest court ruled, There is
no question of law presented which ought to be reviewed by the Court of
appeals and permission is hereby denied.
Balmuth and Christiano are A.R.T.I.S.T. members and plaintiffs in Lederman
et al v Giuliani, a lawsuit that was decided in favor of the artists by
Federal Judge for the Southern District of NY Lawrence McKenna on July 7,
2001. Judge McKenna is the same judge Mayor Giuliani openly criticized in
his farewell speech on 12/27 for preventing the police from arresting
homeless people who were sleeping on the steps of a Fifth Avenue church with
the church's express permission.
In his speech Giuliani stated,
All of those things have to be dealt with, all of them have to be dealt with
differently. None of them are helped by ignoring homelessness, by doing the
kind of thing that the judge allowed last week. That's cruel. He doesn't
think it's cruel. But he's having a hard time thinking through the ideology
that he brings with it to analyzing his decisions. It's a cruel thing to do
to have people laying on the street. It's a much kinder, more generous, much
more mature and much more responsible thing to go take them, try to help
them and put them in facilities where they can get help, which is what we've
done and what really has to continue if we really, really care about people.
[Pardon me while I puke - ]
Since becoming Mayor in 1994 Giuliani has ordered thousands of homeless
people arrested and put through the system for doing nothing more than
sleeping on the street.
People v Balmuth and Christiano was part of the second wave of artist
arrests initiated in 1998 by the Mayor and Parks Commissioner Henry Stern
after artists won two earlier Federal lawsuits against Giuliani, Bery et al
v City of NY and Lederman et al v City of NY. The earlier lawsuits involved
a license requirement to sell art on the street. From 1994 until 1997 more
than 1,000 artists were arrested and had their artwork confiscated by the
NYPD, which later sold the art at auction or destroyed it.
After unsuccessfully appealing the 2nd circuit appeals court ruling granting
street artists full First Amendment protection and exemption from any
license or permit all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and claiming in his
legal briefs that visual art was unworthy of First Amendment protection
because it did not express ideas, the Mayor and Commissioner Stern
retaliated by created a second illegal licensing scheme involving a permit
for artists to sell in or within 350 feet of any NYC park.
During a sixty-five day protest outside the Metropolitan Museum of Art in
1998 more than 100 artists were arrested and charged with a variety of
crimes, including not having an artist permit. Every arrest case was
ultimately dismissed.
While the Federal lawsuit challenging the permit requirement made its way
through court, Manhattan Criminal Court judge Lucy Billings issued a
detailed ruling in People v Balmuth and Christiano in 1998 overturning the
requirement on the grounds that it violated a 1982 NYC law exempting First
Amendment protected book vendors and artists from any license or permit
requirement anywhere in the City.
Mayor Giuliani was so infuriated by the Judge's ruling that he removed her
from the Criminal Court system. Since then, four different rulings have been
issued by the State and Federal courts confirming judge Billing's ruling.
The City is still seeking to overturn Judge McKenna's ruling by appealing
Lederman et al v Giuliani to the 2nd circuit Federal Appeals Court.
Apart from their value to artists, the greater significance of all of the
street artist rulings issued during the past eight years is that they expose
the real nature of the Giuliani administration. Before any artists were
arrested the Manhattan D.A. and Giuliani's Corporation Counsel researched
the issue and issued internal memos which were later recovered in the
discovery process of the various lawsuits. Those memos, circulated
throughout the City's various legal departments, stated that artists were in
fact fully protected by the First Amendment and that none of the cases could
ever be prosecuted. Not one case ever was.
Knowing this, the Mayor nevertheless ordered thousands of artists arrested,
had their original art confiscated and destroyed or sold at auction and
spent millions of dollars processing their criminal cases and defending
against the lawsuits that were filed. In a legal brief filed in 1997 in
Giuliani v Lederman, "America's Mayor" attempted to get the U.S. Supreme
Court to remove First Amendment protection from all visual art.
The Mayor's vendetta against street artists predated his campaigns against
squeegee guys, the homeless, jaywalkers, taxi drivers, topless bars,
community gardens, welfare recipients and art museums. When he became
frustrated that none of the arrests for failure to have a vendors license or
artist permit could be prosecuted, he ordered the police to begin charging
artists with more serious offenses.
My own case is a classic example of how the Mayor's false arrest policy
worked. From 1994 until the present date I've been arrested more than 40
times and charged with a wide variety of offenses including, disorderly
conduct, obstructing governmental administration, inciting to riot,
resisting arrest and defacement of property. I've also received more than 50
additional Criminal Court summonses related to these charges.
Not one case or one summons ever resulted in a fine, a conviction or a plea
bargain. Most of my arrests involved NYPD captains, the NYPD Intelligence
Division, Deputy Mayors and lawyers for the NYPD accompanied by as many as
100 lower ranking police officers. Some of the cases took as long as three
years of monthly court appearances before they were finally dismissed. The
Mayor racked up millions of dollars in legal fees, police overtime and court
costs from my cases alone, and I am just one of hundreds of artists who were
subjected to the same illegal policy.
The rulings in Lederman et al v Giuliani and People v Balmuth and Christiano
have another interesting and ironic wrinkle. The original 1982 law, local
law #33, which exempted book vendors from needing any license or permit and
which was later expanded by the Federal Court to include street artists, was
drafted in part by City Council Member Henry Stern, Giuliani's Commissioner
of Parks. Stern stubbornly insists to this day that the law does not say
what four different courts have ruled that it does and that he was actually
"trying to help artists".
Links to the rulings in these cases and to background information on
A.R.T.I.S.T. and our eight year struggle against Giuliani can be found at
http://baltech.org/lederman/ and at
http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html
A number of news reports and links about these cases follow.
The first street artist lawsuit against Mayor Giuliani
See: http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html
Click on "Street artists are legal: Entire text of the Bery decision of the
U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit" (Argued: April 26, 1996
Decided: October 10, 1996)
Lederman at al v City of NY; Bery et al v City of NY
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
The second street artist Federal lawsuit against Giuliani ((the Parks Dept.
artist permit case Lederman et al v Giuliani)
For the text of the complaint (it has since been amended numerous times)
See: http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html
Click on: "New legal complaint filed in Federal Court against Mayor
Giuliani. Details the charges of constitutional violations (9/5/98)
For Judge McKenna's ruling in Lederman et al v Giuliani see
http://baltech.org/lederman/
Click on: "Court ruling from Lederman essay below" at:
http://baltech.org/lederman/court-ruling.html
"An exhibition of paintings is not as communicative as speech, literature or
live entertainment, and the artists' constitutional interest is thus
minimal." -Giuliani appeal brief against street artists having First
Amendment protection, Giuliani's appeal brief in Giuliani v Lederman et al
and Giuliani v Bery et al, filed with the U.S. Supreme Court 2/24/97.
NY Post editorial on the Billings Decision
"Thanks to Mayor Giuliani's quality-of-life program, New Yorkers no longer
have to step over quite so many vagrants in order to enjoy the greenery of
New York's parks or the aesthetic stimulation of the Metropolitan Museum of
Art. Unfortunately, thanks to Manhattan Criminal Court Judge Lucy Billings,
they might now find themselves navigating their way around hordes of
self-described "artists" who think it's appropriate to liken politicians
they oppose to Hitler." NY Post Editorial 8/20/98 "Free Speech or Free
Exhibition Space?"
NY TIMES December 28, 2001
[Note: Mitchell Balmuth is a defendant in this Criminal Court case, not a
plaintiff as the Times article incorrectly states. He and Pat Christiano are
plaintiffs in Lederman et al v Giuliani]
Artists Win Court Battle to Sell Their Works Outside Museum
By RICHARD PÉREZ-PEÑA
ALBANY, Dec. 27 - Among the many legacies the Giuliani administration will
leave when it ends its eight-year run in New York City on Monday is a
history of choosing fights, then losing them in court.
Add another to the list. Today, New York State's highest court rejected the
administration's effort to limit the number of artists who sell their work
outside the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and to require them to get city
permits to set up shop there.
The Court of Appeals declined to hear the city's appeal in the case, leaving
in place a lower court victory by the artists who, in warm weather, turn
that stretch of Fifth Avenue sidewalk into a hodgepodge gallery of street
scene photographs, skyline watercolors, abstract oils, instant portraits and
Chinese calligraphy.
"It's been a long fight, but we were confident we were going to win," said
Mitchell Balmuth, the lead plaintiff in the case, who was forced to stop
selling works painted by his wife, Soo. "They violated our rights. They did
it with a vengeance."
Henry J. Stern, the New York City parks commissioner, who was the primary
force behind the policy, said, "I still believe that the untrammeled and
unregulated sale of merchandise on city streets is inappropriate, and
calling it art does not give it some sacred status."
Time and again, Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani and his administration adopted
policies that were later struck down. Judges have ruled against the city
for, among many other things, cutting off funding for the Brooklyn Museum in
retaliation for a show there, limiting the number of protesters who could
gather on the City Hall steps, removing people from the Medicaid rolls,
barring people from homeless shelters if they did not participate in
workfare, trying to block funding for an AIDS group that had criticized the
mayor, and making it harder for qualified people to obtain food stamps.
Mr. Giuliani has also lost several rounds when he was the one suing, as when
he challenged the state's repeal of the city's commuter tax, a state law
changing the way police pay disputes are decided, and the city's campaign
finance law.
The artists' case began almost four years ago, when the Department of Parks
and Recreation adopted a regulation limiting the size of the artists' bazaar
outside the Metropolitan, which, the city said, attracted as many as 100
vendors some days. The department had jurisdiction because the sidewalk is
legally a part of Central Park. The rule limited the artists to 24 at a
time, and required them to pay $25 a month for permits issued by lottery.
At the time, Mr. Stern said the artists impeded both foot traffic and the
museum's renovation efforts. The museum said it had not requested the
change, and refused to take sides in the dispute.
Parks enforcement officers and, to a lesser degree, city police officers
seized artwork and issued tickets with fines up to $1,000. Artists held
several loud protests and were arrested by the dozens.
The artists were not allowed to return to the area outside the museum until
last summer, after a series of favorable court rulings. They say most of
their works were never returned, a contention city officials said they could
not immediately confirm or deny.
In addition to the suit filed in state court, artists filed two suits
against the city in federal court, in part on free-speech grounds, seeking
damages. In one of those cases, a judge ruled in August that the city acted
illegally, a decision the city is appealing.
The artists' case rested on a 1982 city law that exempts people selling
"written matter" from any permit requirement imposed by the city. In 1996, a
federal appeals court, in response to earlier attempts by the Giuliani
administration to limit street sales of art, ruled that the city law applied
to artwork, as well.
Mr. Stern said that in hindsight, the administration should have tried to
amend the 1982 law. "Whether to do that is a question now for the Bloomberg
administration," he said.
Daily News 12/28/2001
City Art Permit Plan Gets Brush in Court By JOE MAHONEY
Daily News Albany Bureau Chief ALBANY
"Vendors who sell artwork outside the Metropolitan Museum of Art and other
public spaces got a bright green light yesterday from the state's highest
court.
In a defeat for the Giuliani administration, which wanted to require that
the artists buy $25 permits, the Court of Appeals refused to overturn a
lower court ruling that blocked the city's plans.
"This is a great victory for the art vendors," said Manhattan lawyer Robert
Perry, who defended two artists arrested in 1998.
Officials at City Hall and at the office of Manhattan District Attorney
Robert Morgenthau, which prosecuted artists who defied the permit
requirement, had no immediate comment.
"Even though this case wasn't decided on free speech grounds, it's an
important First Amendment victory because the permit scheme was prior
restraint," Perry said.
The fight against the city's permit rules began in 1998, when three
artists - Mitchell Balmuth, Patrick Christiano and Gilbert Oh - were
arrested near the museum in a Parks Department crackdown on artists who
failed to buy permits.
The charges were tossed out by Manhattan Criminal Court Judge Lucy Billings,
who said, "New York City, in particular, has a long history and rich
tradition of fostering freedom of expression in the arts and vindicating
those rights."
NY Times August 11, 2001
Judge Bars Permit Requirement for Art Vendors
By KATHERINE E. FINKELSTEIN
Photo: Robert Lederman, at the microphone, is among the artists who sued to
challenge the city's rule requiring permits to sell works outside the
Metropolitan Museum of Art.
A federal judge has ruled that the Giuliani administration's requirement
that art vendors in parks have permits is a violation of the city code,
which unconditionally prohibits mandatory licensing for those who sell art
and books.
The decision, issued Aug. 7 by Judge Lawrence M. McKenna of United States
District Court in Manhattan, did not delve into whether the city's actions
violated the artists' constitutional right to free speech. But in multiple
lawsuits and legal motions that the artists have won in state and federal
courts, they have argued that their rights to free speech were being
restricted.
The decision, which the city vowed yesterday to appeal, affects street
artists who display their work in parks or on adjacent sidewalks, including
those at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which are part of Central Park.
Their legal battle began in 1998 after the police began issuing summonses to
those without permits. The conflict escalated into street protests and
arrests, and the police confiscated some artwork.
Yesterday, a group of the artists gathered outside the Metropolitan Museum
to celebrate the decision. Holding an unflattering painting of Mayor Rudolph
W. Giuliani, Robert Lederman, one of the artists, said that the legal
victory protected the rights of everyone from leafleteers to media magnates
whose papers are sold in vending boxes, which require no permits.
"Our efforts continue to make this city a place where artists can enjoy the
freedom to create, display and sell their works," he said, "and this most
essential of human freedoms can continue to be enjoyed by all New Yorkers."
The federal decision came on the heels of a state decision last week that
also favored the artists. A state appeals court affirmed the decision of a
judge in State Supreme Court in Manhattan who dismissed criminal charges
against two artists who were given summonses for selling artwork without a
permit.
The Manhattan district attorney's office has decided to appeal that decision
also, according to city officials. The officials acknowledged that after the
state decision last week they told the police and the Parks Department,
which has jurisdiction over the space, to stop issuing summonses to the
artists.
Yesterday, city officials characterized the defeats in state and federal
courts as the result of confusion over the interpretation of the city code.
The parks commissioner, Henry J. Stern, called the case "a highly technical
decision dealing with effect of administrative code on park-related
matters."
But he said that the Parks Department hoped to impose "reasonable
regulations" either through legal remedy or some amendment to the city code.
Currently, he said, "the unregulated commercial sale of art in public parks
is inappropriate and intrusive."
A lawyer for the city, Robin Binder, said last night, "The city thinks the
decision is wrong and intends to appeal." The city can appeal to the United
States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit and beyond that to the United
States Supreme Court.
Both sides seemed poised for further legal fighting yesterday. At the
Metropolitan Museum, one of the artists, Wei Zhang, said that he had come
from China, a country without human rights or free speech. After getting
here, he said, the Giuliani administration had him arrested and confiscated
his paintings. "I come to the wrong place again,' " he said.
The discord began in March 1998, when the city began to try to regulate the
cluster of street artists outside the Metropolitan Museum and began issuing
24 permits a month - at $25 each - to those selling their work there. The
fine for those selling works without permits was $1,000.
When the artists organized protests, singing and likening Mr. Giuliani to a
dictator, the police started arresting them, leading a number of them away
in handcuffs. Officials from the Metropolitan Museum said at the time that
they did not have any complaints with the artists.
The artists organized a group, Artist, an acronym for Artists' Response to
Illegal State Tactics, and demanded that the state abide by a 1996 federal
court decision that was the first to reject the city's efforts to license
artists. Their protests and the arrests continued, and the lawsuits began as
they fought what they called restrictions on their freedom.
In August 1998, Judge Lucy Billings of State Supreme Court in Manhattan
dismissed the charges against several of the artists, ruling that city law
prevented the licensing of book and art vendors. She quoted a 1982 City
Council law that said, "It is consistent with the principles of free speech
and freedom of the press to eliminate as many restrictions on the vending of
written matter as is consistent with the public health, safety and welfare."
While the city appeals, one of the lawyers for the artists, Robert Perry,
said his clients might go to trial to get damages for the restriction on
their livelihood.
Meanwhile, the artists seemed to be doing a brisk business selling postcards
that depicted Mr. Giuliani in various monstrous guises.
--------------
NY Times August 17, 2001 PUBLIC LIVES
End Draws Near for Mayor's Artful Adversary
By ROBIN FINN
Evidently a first-rate muse is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.
Picasso had his mistresses. Warhol had a soup can. Robert Lederman, a canny
street artist who has waged three federal lawsuits for his First Amendment
rights to display his art and opinions in the public eye, has Mayor Rudolph
W. Giuliani. But only for four more months.
Come December, Mr. Lederman, whose best- known works (caustic caricatures of
a vampire- like mayor in dictatorial guise) hang outdoors on the sidewalks
adjacent to the Metropolitan Museum of Art rather than inside, will lose his
muse of eight years to term limits.
What a mundane way to go. Mr. Lederman, with a group of 400 artists he has
led since March 1998, successfully sued the city in State Supreme Court that
August - after Mr. Giuliani tried to shrink their Met marketplace by issuing
only 24 permits, imposing a monthly fee and arresting scofflaws. The latest
chapter in street artists vs. Giuliani, a battle that Mr. Lederman claims
has cost city taxpayers millions in legal fees, was decided Aug. 7 in United
States District Court in Manhattan; again, the artists prevailed, and again,
the city vowed to appeal.
"I'm using art as a weapon against a tyrant, and when this is all over, I'm
probably going to have a hard time going back to making the nice picture to
go over somebody's couch," says Mr. Lederman, 50, very much the bohemian in
his paint-splashed sandals, T-shirt and shiny synthetic track pants that
will never come close to running track. He has no time for hobbies; when he
is not dashing off Giuliani caricatures in the oppressive clutter of his
Brighton Beach studio or on the hood of his car, he is in court.
So he is not sure whether it pains or pleases him to soon lose a mayor whose
visage has inspired a thousand paintings and earned him thousands in sales.
Rudy postcards go for $1 apiece, Rudy posters for $10, and Rudy originals,
except for the hundred or so Mr. Lederman says were confiscated by the
Police Department acting on orders from his nemesis, command up to $1,000.
Who buys them? Everybody. Tourists, lawyers, left-wing types, off-duty
police officers, even fans of Mr. Giuliani (the artist's favorite customers
because they're potential converts).
Speaking of the police, he is certain he won't miss those scary sleepovers
in the Tombs after being arrested. But Mr. Lederman admits that he goes out
of his way to attract the mayor's ire, often displaying his wares next to
Mr. Giuliani's entrance at City Hall. The artist seems to share his muse's
knack for self-aggrandizement. With a mix of spite and admiration, he calls
Mr. Giuliani a public relations genius, but he is not so bad at playing the
game himself. So what if his masterly works aren't in the Met. His art has
appeared in People magazine three times; talk about exposure.
He says Mr. Giuliani has taken the bait and dispatched the police to arrest
him 41 times, which does not include the hundred or so summonses that he has
been issued since the mayor, as part of his quality-of-life campaign, tried
to lump street artists with hot-dog vendors and squeegee wielders, and
censor their squatter's rights to a niche in the urban landscape.
"It's been a war since 1994," says Mr. Lederman, slender and strident with a
graying beard and a glib speaking manner. "He made it a war. I never sued
anybody before Giuliani. I had no real interest in politicians. The ironic
thing is that now, thanks to Giuliani, my art has been seen by half the
world. I've got a cable show, a Web site, radio and TV spots, articles
everywhere, and I've become a recognized expert on First Amendment rights.
I've written my own court appeals. How did I learn to do all this? I went to
Giuliani U."
In a crumbling Brighton Beach apartment crammed with Giuliani canvases and
monster figurines, Mr. Lederman lives with his companion of eight years and
their young son, both of whom he refuses to identify because of his having
cultivated "a lot of enemies" during contretemps with Mr. Giuliani. He
recollects being spit on, and being threatened by a man with a screwdriver
who took exception to his art on a SoHo sidewalk in 1999. Altercations like
this didn't happen back when he was homeless in the East Village in the
1980's selling street scenes and a self-published pamphlet of poems and
woodcuts, "Urban Archtypes."
He says he was evicted from his previous home in Park Slope after taping a
poster of Mr. Giuliani to a front window to protest malathion spraying
during the 1999 mosquito scare - he contends that the spray gave him asthma,
even blames it for the mayor's prostate cancer, and he is a litigant against
the city in the No Spray Coalition. He marvels that his graduating class at
Tilden High School in Brooklyn produced two such lively activists as himself
and the Rev. Al Sharpton.
The Brooklyn-born Mr. Lederman was 12 when he sold his first art, portraits
of movie stars, outside Dubrow's deli on Kings Highway; he used the proceeds
to buy monster movies on 8-millimeter film (he wanted to be a director). His
father, Paul, was a commercial artist whose unsigned work appeared
everywhere from cigarette ads to Elvis posters; when Mr. Lederman left home
at 17 to be a street artist, his father disapproved.
Mr. Lederman has long had dicey relations with authority figures. But he is
saving all his Giuliani art, and not out of sentiment: "I figure he'll be
back in 2005, just like Schwarzenegger."
robert....@worldnet.att.net
http://baltech.org/lederman/
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gold-e...@prontomail.com
sig...@safe-mail.net
jacki...@yahoo.com
marjor...@yahoo.com
http://65.166.104.68/options
a5...@personal.ro
j_r_s...@hotmail.com
ne...@real-net.net
tor...@popmail.com
oii...@msn.com
gol...@usa.net
top...@email.com
Off...@wisemarkettips.com
$RANDON$@msn.com
RAN...@msn.com
iol...@postmark.net
highyiel...@ziplip.com
bel...@themail.com
sig...@safe-mail.net
gold-e...@prontomail.com
shirleyt...@yahoo.com
www.geocities.com/thebestgold
alf...@hushmail.com
hypro...@netscape.com
r...@thermail.com
ange...@hotmail.com
mag...@popmail.com
baseba...@eudora.com
http://money-webb.com/
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Undisclosed...@sa50.tydk.com.tw
pharmo...@hanimail.com
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BIZ-...@AOL.COM
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con...@ultracashx.com
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careers@institute_for_academic_advancement
webm...@moparparts.net
ioi...@msn.com
vinc...@69yes.com
advancedprograms411@uvc
careers@institute_for_academic_advancement
iot...@msn.com
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payingp...@webmail.com
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orl...@ultimateemail.com
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ioq...@aol.com
t.and...@email.com
micha...@hotmail.com
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sallysp...@hotmail.com
oir...@msn.com
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hy_f...@yahoo.com
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cqu...@email.com
mad...@hotmail.com
"Freedom Fighter" <lib...@once.net> wrote in message
news:a0imbi$dop$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
mike
"Douglas R. Foster" wrote:
>
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:57:42 -0500, "Freedom Fucker"
> <lib...@once.net> wrote:
>
> {--snip more Robert Lederman related nonsense--]
>
> Gee, an addle-headed liberal judge supports a bunch of unemployed
> street activists on an anti-government crusade. How unusual!
>
> [Big yawn]
>
> What are you going to do for fun after December 31, asshole?
>
Your contempt for compassion and civility are noted. <yawn>
Freedom Fighter
news:3c2e8cce...@news.prodigy.net...
> X-No-Archive: Yes - I wouldn't want any record kept of such hateful
bigotry either.
>
> On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:57:42 -0500, "Freedom Fucker"
> <lib...@once.net> wrote:
>
> {--snip more Robert Lederman related nonsense--]
>
> Gee, an addle-headed liberal judge supports a bunch of unemployed
> street activists on an anti-government crusade. How unusual!
>
> [Big yawn]
>
> What are you going to do for fun after December 31, asshole?
>
------------
Goodbye, malicious KKKon$ervative bigot. Your hateful rants are not worthy
of my, or anyone else's, attention. Hope you enjoy the company of the other
sickos in my killfile.
PLONK!
Will
probably one of these screw ups who only believe
in their own rights and not the rights of others. I'm personally glad this
guy is out of public office. He
doesn't deserve to hold public office. He sounds more
like a Nazi to me. And you a simple minded fool that
follows your master.
"Douglas R. Foster" <dfo...@diespam.earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:3c2e8cce...@news.prodigy.net...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>