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G & J

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Nov 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/9/98
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If I were coming up from Texas for one day in Manhattan, where would I
go for "real" New York pizza. I am no longer a young man, so I would
prefer a restaurant within 3 blocks of a subway stop. Jill and I are
adventurous, so any and all suggestions are welcome.

I love NY. Is there any chance of getting Les Mis tickets at the half
price booth yet?

Thanks in advance

Gordon in Arlington, TX

P.S. (and yes, I was at the playoff game in Arlington wherein the
Yankees shut us out and God added insult to injury by sending one of the
worst thunderstorms in years).


lleo...@ix.netcom.com

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Nov 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/9/98
to
Many New Yorkers believe the best New York pizza is at John's Pizzeria, 278
Bleecker Street between 6th and 7th. It's within three blocks of the West
4th Street subway station. Les Mis tickets have indeed been available at the
TKTS booth sometimes recently (although as you probably know you don't know
for sure until the day of performance.) The Microsoft Sidewalk web site at
www.newyork.sidewalk.com now posts what's available at TKTS each day, I
think around noon. Enjoy your trip!

Laurie Leonard
NEW YORK YOUR WAY
"Get the most out of NYC with a travel guide written just for you!"
*****See http://www.nyyourway.com for questionnaire*****


----------

gaja...@pilot.njin.net

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Nov 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/9/98
to
if i'm near john's, i actually 'go to joe's, which is right down
the street from john's (6th/carmine), and does sell slices.

unfortunately (well, i'm not *that* elitist), since they've been
written up a lot, there are more people there. but i like
their pizza more than john's.

and i like benny tudino's in hoboken more than either.


ok, my preferences are: thin crust, lots o' cheese, good tomato sauce.
can anyone else make suggestions based on my 'likes'?

thanks - bob


brighton

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Nov 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/9/98
to
We live on 8th St. & 6th Ave., and although I love John's, my husband
prefers and I also adore Ray's Pizza -- and according to my husband, who
went to P.S. 41, it is _the_ original Ray's -- on 12th Street & 6th
Avenue, NW corner. They sell slices & pies (large is $21 for 2 to 3
toppings). To be specific about crust type.... while John's is a thin
crispy crunchy crust, Ray's is a thin chewy crust, with a crispy bottom.
I normally discard the outside crust, but I love Ray's crusts. And there
is a TON of cheese, and the most delicious tomato sauce.

--Maria in NYC

Cyrus Afzali

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:18:39 -0500, lleo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>Many New Yorkers believe the best New York pizza is at John's Pizzeria, 278
>Bleecker Street between 6th and 7th.

John's is good. Another good place is Lombardi's, although it's in
Little Italy, so it's a good jog from John's. However, it is near the
B,D,F, Q and 6 subways.

UBCHI2

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
Ray Bari at 930 3rd Avenue. This is a 2 blocks from the 59th Street Lexington
train stop.

PeekABoo

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
Oh my God!!! Forget Ray Bari! Forget Ray's. The best pizza I've had in my
13 years in the city, is also rated one of the best in Zagats. Yes, John
of Bleeker is good, but YOU MUST TRY VINNIE'S PIZZA - AMSTERDAM BETWEEN
73RD AND 74TH. It's unbelievable. Their lasagna is the best I've ever had
too. it's a little hole in the wall, but it's extremely highly rated.


Robert Buxbaum

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
In article <3648ad8f...@news.alt.net>, pns...@vagrecbeg.arg (Cyrus
Afzali) wrote:

> On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:18:39 -0500, lleo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> >Many New Yorkers believe the best New York pizza is at John's Pizzeria, 278
> >Bleecker Street between 6th and 7th.
>
> John's is good. Another good place is Lombardi's, although it's in
> Little Italy, so it's a good jog from John's. However, it is near the
> B,D,F, Q and 6 subways.


Lombardi's is remarkable for how they can manage to burn the bottom of the
crust and still have raw dough on the top in such a thin crust, but they
do use fresh mozzarella and that's a treat.

--
---------------------------
new URL <www.worldtable.com> Food, Wine, & Travel - recent revisions
98-99 schedule for cooking school in Gascony; archive of Jack's posts
in rec.travel.europe; a final dinner at Restaurant Daniel, NYC Jul 98

Jeremy Osner

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
G & J wrote:
>
> If I were coming up from Texas for one day in Manhattan, where would I
> go for "real" New York pizza.

Go to the boroughs -- that's where the pizza is. I would
recommend you go to DiFara's Pizzeria in Midwood -- you take the
D train to Brooklyn, get out at Avenue J. The pizzeria is one
block from the station. It's the "realest" pizza in the city.
Also you might want to check out "The Eclectic Gourmet Guide to
Greater New York" which is where I found out about DiFara's.

Jeremy

fe...@journalism.com

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
I would enthusiastically second Lombardi's, but I'd warn that it's not within
three blocks of the B/D/F/Q. It is very close to the Spring St 6, however.
(It's also very close to the Bowery J and M stop, but to my knowledge I'm the
only person who ever travels on the J/M/Z. It's only really peripherally in
Manhattan at all. And the Bowery stop is absolutely horrible.)

Details at http://newyork.sidewalk.com/detail/7170

In article <3648ad8f...@news.alt.net>,
pns...@vagrecbeg.arg (Cyrus Afzali) wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:18:39 -0500, lleo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> >Many New Yorkers believe the best New York pizza is at John's Pizzeria, 278
> >Bleecker Street between 6th and 7th.
>
> John's is good. Another good place is Lombardi's, although it's in
> Little Italy, so it's a good jog from John's. However, it is near the
> B,D,F, Q and 6 subways.
> >

> >----------


> >In article <364785B7...@swbell.net>, G & J <gr...@swbell.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>If I were coming up from Texas for one day in Manhattan, where would I

> >>go for "real" New York pizza. I am no longer a young man, so I would
> >>prefer a restaurant within 3 blocks of a subway stop. Jill and I are
> >>adventurous, so any and all suggestions are welcome.
> >>
> >>I love NY. Is there any chance of getting Les Mis tickets at the half
> >>price booth yet?
> >>
> >>Thanks in advance
> >>
> >>Gordon in Arlington, TX
> >>
> >>P.S. (and yes, I was at the playoff game in Arlington wherein the
> >>Yankees shut us out and God added insult to injury by sending one of the
> >>worst thunderstorms in years).
> >>
>
>

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

ben...@banet.net

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
DiFara's pizza is not what it use to be. I was raised on the man's pies
and dishes and they are not quite the same. If you are talking about
the sicilian pie, then I have to agree that it's the "realest" pizza in
the city. They also have the best baked ziti that I ever had.


KATN1013

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
Go to "Patsy's" in Harlem... It is so good that Frank Sinatra used to fly their
pizza into Palm Springs. There are others.. actually NY Cabbies will be able
to tell you some more...don't forget to try Little Italy on Mulberry Street for
some real Italian food.. Hope you enjoy!!


Neal Richardson

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
I'd like to add Grimaldi's (better known by it's former name, Patsy's)
underneath the Brooklyn Bridge in Brooklyn Heights. Superb brick-oven
pizza, It gets crowded, so pick your time carefully. Like all the great
NYC pizza joints, they use fresh ingredients. You can't beat the walk
before or after eating, along the Brooklyn Heights Promenade. I always take
guests over there and it makes for a great food/walk combination.
--
neal.ri...@cwix.com
ICQ: 8781347

or...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <72ak3j$dg9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <PeekABooNY-ya024080...@news.earthlink.net>,

>I'll second that - having conducted a survey of NYC pizza, guided by Steven
>Shaw's site, we found Lombardi's upper east side branch to be very
>disappointing while Vinnie's was by far and out the best Pizza we had. (I
>wouldn't describe Lombardi's as a "NYC slice"). John's was nice too.
>
>Orik

Don Macron

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
Here's another vote for John's of Bleeker. Will be back in NYC this
weekend, myself, and am looking forward to it. Be sure to sit in the
"back" room (better pizza oven), and -- for the full effect -- order it
with garlic. Oh, yeah -- Best Health Iced Tea, too. Yum.

or...@my-dejanews.com

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Nov 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/11/98
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Karen R. Cavanaugh

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Nov 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/11/98
to
gaja...@pilot.njin.net wrote:
>
> if i'm near john's, i actually 'go to joe's, which is right down
> the street from john's (6th/carmine), and does sell slices.
>
> unfortunately (well, i'm not *that* elitist), since they've been
> written up a lot, there are more people there. but i like
> their pizza more than john's.
>
> and i like benny tudino's in hoboken more than either.
>
> ok, my preferences are: thin crust, lots o' cheese, good tomato sauce.
> can anyone else make suggestions based on my 'likes'?

I haven't been that impressed with John's. Joe's is OK, but have you tried
the Rays right up from Joe's? They may not be "THE" Rays, but I actually like
it better than the one up 6th Ave. The Rays at 6th ave. and 3rd Street also
has meal-sized slices, but has (IMHO) superior sauce.

-Karen


>
> thanks - bob

The Bakers

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Nov 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/11/98
to
Neal Richardson wrote:

> I'd like to add Grimaldi's (better known by it's former name, Patsy's)
> underneath the Brooklyn Bridge in Brooklyn Heights.

Could you be a little more specific with directions ? Several weeks ago, I had
to go to a meeting at Polytech Univ. and I walked over to/from the WTC PATH
station via the Brooklyn Bridge promenade. Very cool....had been to lower
Manhattan many times before, but my first trip across the bridge. I remember
that the "ramp" down from the bridge walking deck on the Brooklyn side seemed
quite a bit longer than that on the Manhattan side, and at one point seemed to
split into two....an "upper" and "lower" level over by all the 'Watchtower'
buildings. Or am I confused ?

In any event, would appreciate instructions on how to get to Grimaldi's/Patsy's
since "underneath the bridge" covers a lot of ground to these New Jerseyan eyes
:-)

Thanks!


Steven A. Shaw

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Nov 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/11/98
to
There is no easy answer. It's not even clear what "real New York pizza" is.
Certainly, no single pizzeria has a monopoly on the real thing (although
those with coal- or wood-burning brick ovens probably have the most
persuasive claims) and I would hate for you to return home thinking that
such-and-such is what New Yorkers collectively define as real pizza. Also,
forgive me pizza lovers, but it's probably not worth devoting a huge amount
of your one day in New York to traveling for pizza. I live here, so it makes
sense that I might want to kill half a day schlepping out to Totonno's in
Coney Island or up to Patsy's in Harlem--but that may not make so much sense
for you. Sadly, I'm not sure that New York still has any pizza worthy of
that kind of attention (the only pilgrimage-worthy pizza I've had in the
past few years has been in New Haven, Connecticut). Even Patsy's and
Totonno's are not what they once were. I suggest you plan your day and
select a pizzeria that's near wherever you're going to be. We can all give
you some specific neighborhood pizza recommendations when you narrow the
field. And yes, Les Miserables tickets are often available at TKTS.

Good luck.

--
Steven A. Shaw
Steven Shaw's New York Restaurant Review & Food Guide
www.shaw-review.com

Neal Richardson

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Nov 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/11/98
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I can't e-mail you direct as you have anti-spammed your e-mail address.
Let me know if you are going to driver, walk, or take NYC subway, and I will
give you directions. It's worth the trip.

--
neal.ri...@cwix.com
ICQ: 8781347

The Bakers wrote in message <36490791...@no.spam>...

Jessica Bennett (Levy Library)

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Nov 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/11/98
to

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Steven A. Shaw wrote:

> Sadly, I'm not sure that New York still has any pizza worthy of
> that kind of attention (the only pilgrimage-worthy pizza I've had in the
> past few years has been in New Haven, Connecticut).

Amen! The only pizza worth traveling any distance more than a few blocks
for is Pepe's in New Haven. Or one of about a half dozen other places
there that all kick the butt of new york parlors. New Haven ain't got
much, but it's got pizza!

jessie


Steven A. Shaw

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Nov 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/11/98
to
Well, I married into a family that is loyal to Sally's, so I've never been
allowed to go to Pepe's. The rivalry runs quite deep.

Barry Campbell

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
to
In article <72bb2k$a17$1...@supernews.com>, "Steven A. Shaw"
<ste...@shaw-review.com> wrote, among other things:

>Sadly, I'm not sure that New York still has any pizza worthy of
>that kind of attention (the only pilgrimage-worthy pizza I've had in the
>past few years has been in New Haven, Connecticut).

I could not agree with this more strongly. New York has plenty of
B+ grade pizzerias--well above average, but just short of excellence.

I live in the West Village, just down the street from John's, and within
an easy train ride of all the so-called "best pizza" places in the City.
I have enjoyed eating at most of them.

Worthy of a pilgrimage, though? No.

I'll drive an hour and a half to Sally's in New Haven when I want
a serious pie. The clam-and-bacon pie at Sally's is the Platonic
ideal of pizza, and is worth every minute of the round trip. Summa
cum laude, and without equal.

- bc

Steven A. Shaw

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
to
>The clam-and-bacon pie at Sally's is the Platonic ideal of pizza, and is
worth every minute of the round trip.

The smart-ass waiters at Sally's call that one the "Kosher Special."

Michael Muller

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Nov 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/14/98
to G & J
I vote for "two boots". There are a couple of them, one east off
broadway two or three blocks north of houston, the other around third
street on ave A downtown. Their plain is killer, and their specials are
better.

Another place is "Little Cicily" on Vanderbilt (west side of GCT) at
44th. They use corn meal or something on the bottom of the crust to make
it crunchy without having to burn it. Amazing staple pizza.

G & J wrote:
>
> If I were coming up from Texas for one day in Manhattan, where would I
> go for "real" New York pizza. I am no longer a young man, so I would
> prefer a restaurant within 3 blocks of a subway stop. Jill and I are
> adventurous, so any and all suggestions are welcome.
>
> I love NY. Is there any chance of getting Les Mis tickets at the half
> price booth yet?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Gordon in Arlington, TX
>
> P.S. (and yes, I was at the playoff game in Arlington wherein the
> Yankees shut us out and God added insult to injury by sending one of the
> worst thunderstorms in years).

--

--------------------------------------------------------
Michael Muller Information is not knowledge
m...@treebranch.com Knowledge is not wisdom
NYC Environmentalism Online! -Frank Zappa
--------------------------------------------------------
Watch our cable show on Monday nights, channel 34 @ 8:30

John Higgins

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Nov 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/15/98
to
brighton (brig...@nospam.spacelab.net) wrote:
: We live on 8th St. & 6th Ave., and although I love John's, my husband

: prefers and I also adore Ray's Pizza -- and according to my husband, who
: went to P.S. 41, it is _the_ original Ray's -- on 12th Street & 6th
: Avenue, NW corner. They sell slices & pies (large is $21 for 2 to 3
: toppings). To be specific about crust type.... while John's is a thin
: crispy crunchy crust, Ray's is a thin chewy crust, with a crispy bottom.
: I normally discard the outside crust, but I love Ray's crusts. And there
: is a TON of cheese, and the most delicious tomato sauce.

Not that I don't have a street slice now and again, but
comparing Ray's on 12th or any other one I can think of to John's
Pizzeria is like comparing TGI Fridays to the Union Square Cafe.
Lots of glop and oil.

John Higgins

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Nov 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/15/98
to

Zagat's Top Pizza (1999 edition)

Grimaldi's 26 out of 30
Nick's Pizza 25
Lombardi's 24
Joe's Pizza 23
Little Italy Pizza 22
John's Pizza 21

Patsy's gets a 20.

Grimaldi's is great,though a bit out of the way. Lombardi's is great,
more like Soho than Little Italy, though. John's has been surpassed by
these two, I think. Never been to the rest.

Add to that Patsy's (20) which has opened additional locations in
Manhattan. The one at 67 University Place in the Village (near 8th St.)
is good. Check CitySearch for addresses and directions from the nearest
subway.

brighton

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Nov 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/15/98
to
If you like drier pizza, then John's is for you. If you like juicy,
cheesy pizza, then Ray (ONLY 12th St/6th Ave location) is your man.

--Maria in NYC

Kieran Reilly

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Nov 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/15/98
to
Michael Muller <m...@treebranch.com> wrote:

> I vote for "two boots". There are a couple of them, one east off
> broadway two or three blocks north of houston, the other around third
> street on ave A downtown. Their plain is killer, and their specials are
> better.

Tasty pizza, but last time I went to the West Village Two Boots, the
pizza gave me a bad case of the runs. I know it was the pizza because it
was the only thing I had to eat that day and it hit me about 20 minutes
after eating.

A note about Patsy's: the only Patsy's that uses a coal-fired oven is
the original up in East Harlem. I was pretty disappointed by the
relatively bland pizza I got at the location on 3rd av & E. 34th St.

Best pizzas for me? In order: Lombardi's (ignore the pepperoni and get
the pizza with sausage), California Pizza Oven (on University Place) and
Patsy's uptown.

In fact, I'd like to give a special shout-out for the California Pizza
Oven. The pizza is delicious, the sauce is especially tangy, and I love
the pesto and baked garlic options. And unlike Lombardi's and John's,
you can stop by and get pizza by the slice.

--


Steven A. Shaw

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Nov 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/15/98
to
Another example of the stupidity of the Zagat Survey's methodology.

There is a vast difference between the Patsy's in Harlem (which uses a
coal-fired brick oven and is operated by the family) and the other Patsy's
branches (which are mediocre imitations operated under license). The Patsy's
in Harlem is easily better than most (perhaps every one) of the pizzerias on
that list. Yet Zagat uses an aggregate score for ranking purposes. It's not
even that the Zagat people don't know about the difference. If you read the
text, they are clearly aware of the superiority of the Harlem original--yet
they persist in using a clearly flawed system. Patsy's may deserve to take
its lumps for allowing its good name to be used by inferior pizzerias, but
we certainly don't deserve the misinformation.

John Higgins

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Nov 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/15/98
to
Steven A. Shaw (ste...@shaw-review.com) wrote:
: Another example of the stupidity of the Zagat Survey's methodology.

You may be correct in this instance. However, I find Zagat's to be
extremely on target. Occassionally Zagat's will hate something I like,
but I've never had a terrible meal at a restaurant that Zagat's likes. I
use mine constantly and its invaluable when I travel.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
John M. Higgins
Broadcasting & Cable Magazine
hig...@dorsai.org
v)212-337-7024/f)212-337-7028
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


ELVIS 1999

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
to
On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 18:15:52 -0600, G & J <gr...@swbell.net> wrote:

>If I were coming up from Texas for one day in Manhattan, where would I
>go for "real" New York pizza. I am no longer a young man, so I would
>prefer a restaurant within 3 blocks of a subway stop. Jill and I are
>adventurous, so any and all suggestions are welcome.

Adventurous - but only within 3 blocks of a subway station, eh?

>I love NY. Is there any chance of getting Les Mis tickets at the half
>price booth yet?

Every day.

Jeff


ELVIS 1999

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
to
Excellent advice. I find there are good spots in various
neighborhoods - but I also wouldn't go to far for a slice. Franks in
Gramercy park, although greesy - is mighty good. Two Boots is also
very good - right off the 6 Bleeker street stop.

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:46:49 -0500, "Steven A. Shaw"
<ste...@shaw-review.com> wrote:

>There is no easy answer. It's not even clear what "real New York pizza" is.
>Certainly, no single pizzeria has a monopoly on the real thing (although
>those with coal- or wood-burning brick ovens probably have the most
>persuasive claims) and I would hate for you to return home thinking that
>such-and-such is what New Yorkers collectively define as real pizza. Also,
>forgive me pizza lovers, but it's probably not worth devoting a huge amount
>of your one day in New York to traveling for pizza. I live here, so it makes
>sense that I might want to kill half a day schlepping out to Totonno's in
>Coney Island or up to Patsy's in Harlem--but that may not make so much sense

>for you. Sadly, I'm not sure that New York still has any pizza worthy of


>that kind of attention (the only pilgrimage-worthy pizza I've had in the

ELVIS 1999

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
to
On Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:30:35 -0400, southpawR...@altavista.net
(Kieran Reilly) wrote:

>Michael Muller <m...@treebranch.com> wrote:
>
>> I vote for "two boots". There are a couple of them, one east off
>> broadway two or three blocks north of houston, the other around third
>> street on ave A downtown. Their plain is killer, and their specials are
>> better.
>
>Tasty pizza, but last time I went to the West Village Two Boots, the
>pizza gave me a bad case of the runs. I know it was the pizza because it
>was the only thing I had to eat that day and it hit me about 20 minutes
>after eating.

That's a sign of NYC pizza that's almost *too* good. Usually the runs
don't kick in for an hour or two. I had some Frank's on 23rd and the
pains hit immediately, and that was after a top notch slice.


John Higgins

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
to
G & J (gr...@swbell.net) wrote:
: If I were coming up from Texas for one day in Manhattan, where would I
: go for "real" New York pizza. I am no longer a young man, so I would
: prefer a restaurant within 3 blocks of a subway stop. Jill and I are
: adventurous, so any and all suggestions are welcome.

: I love NY. Is there any chance of getting Les Mis tickets at the half
: price booth yet?

A bonus: there's a John's Pizzeria just opened in the theater district
about three blocks from the Music Box Theater where Les Miz is playing, I
believe.


Robert Buxbaum

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
to
In article <higginsF...@netcom.com>, hig...@netcom.com (John
Higgins) wrote:

> Steven A. Shaw (ste...@shaw-review.com) wrote:
> : Another example of the stupidity of the Zagat Survey's methodology.
>
> You may be correct in this instance. However, I find Zagat's to be
> extremely on target. Occassionally Zagat's will hate something I like,
> but I've never had a terrible meal at a restaurant that Zagat's likes. I
> use mine constantly and its invaluable when I travel.
>

I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that Zagat gives the highest
rating to the worst restaurants, or the lowest rating to the best, but
it's not on target. As for using it when traveling, I agree that any
guide is better than no guide, but the usefulness of any survey is
dependent on the size of the sample and the quality of the opinion
sampled. In any city there are those who never eat in the finest places
in town, yet have no problem awarding the highest marks to their favorite
place. Then there are those who dine regularly in the most expensive
places and make great distinction between them. It doesn't all avaerage
out. Finally if the sample is large enough, you will get a sense of what
the locals enjoy, but not necessarily any insight to quality. Recently
someone told me of the time they asked a native of D.C. if the Zagat guide
was respected and used much by the local diners and if the rating counted
for much. He replied, the only thing that counts in D.C. is the size of
the portion.

Obviously our milages vary. For me Zagat is not on target. It's just far
enough off that if I have two or three nights in a city, I am likely to
miss the restaurant I would most enjoy, if I depeneded on Zagat.

--
---------------------------
new URL <www.worldtable.com> Food, Wine, & Travel - recent revisions
98-99 schedule for cooking school in Gascony; archive of Jack's posts
in rec.travel.europe; a final dinner at Restaurant Daniel, NYC Jul 98

Robert Buxbaum

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
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In article <72ngib$e11$1...@supernews.com>, "Steven A. Shaw"
<ste...@shaw-review.com> wrote:

> Another example of the stupidity of the Zagat Survey's methodology.
>

> There is a vast difference between the Patsy's in Harlem (which uses a
> coal-fired brick oven and is operated by the family) and the other Patsy's
> branches (which are mediocre imitations operated under license). The Patsy's
> in Harlem is easily better than most (perhaps every one) of the pizzerias on
> that list. Yet Zagat uses an aggregate score for ranking purposes. It's not
> even that the Zagat people don't know about the difference. If you read the
> text, they are clearly aware of the superiority of the Harlem original--yet
> they persist in using a clearly flawed system. Patsy's may deserve to take
> its lumps for allowing its good name to be used by inferior pizzerias, but
> we certainly don't deserve the misinformation.
>


You deserve all you'll take. ;-)

I usually get a courtesy copy of the guide from a company whose services I
use and have never had a problem with a phone number or street address in
the book. I call that good value. ;-)

w e i

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
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1, tatonno's in coney island
2, patsi's underneath brooklyn bridge

3, dont go anywhere else


my recommandation since you have only one day here:

take a cab, tell the guy you want to go to "river cafe" if he does not
know where patsi's is. 100 yards before you reach "river cafe" you will
see a ground floor pizza place with a green canope on the window and a
small line of people by the door (on the north side of old fulton street)
that will be it, this aint some cheese bread type of deal, they make
everything fresh with fresh mozzarella, fresh basil leaves and fresh
tomatoes, i was told frank sinatra used to send his driver here to bring
two pizzas back for him.

after the pizza, you can also walk down to the open space underneath the
brooklyn bridge by the river, from there you can have a really beautiful
view of manhattan

people who tried there would agree with me

.02

http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&YY=3896&city=New%20York&state=NY&slt=40.7142&sln=-74.0064&mlt=40.7045&mln=-73.9972&mag=10&cs=5&off=e

w e i

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
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my appology for confussion, the restaurant name is Grimaldi's

the owner's name is Grimaldi Patsy, he is the real "Patsy" way back when
he worked for his uncle in harlem but not allowed to own a restaurant
under his own name. detail info can be found in the restaurant..

:>

Steven A. Shaw

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
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>I usually get a courtesy copy of the guide from a company whose services I
>use and have never had a problem with a phone number or street address in
>the book. I call that good value. ;-)


I've never had a problem with a phone number or street address in the Bell
Atlantic White Pages either! It 's free to everybody and contains a far more
comprehensive listing than Zagat (although Zagat does provide cross-streets,
which are missing from the White Pages). And for those who pay, a Zagat
guide now costs in excess of ten bucks.

Steven A. Shaw

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
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>You may be correct in this instance. However, I find Zagat's to be
>extremely on target. Occassionally Zagat's will hate something I like,
>but I've never had a terrible meal at a restaurant that Zagat's likes. I
>use mine constantly and its invaluable when I travel.


Well, I'm not going to waste server space with another full-blown Zagat
debate. Suffice it to say that the Patsy's problem is just the tip of the
iceberg--it's not hard to list numerous other examples. Flawed methodology
aside, however, the more fundamental problem is that public opinion is
simply not a reliable measure of the quality of restaurants.

Jeremy Epstein

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Nov 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/18/98
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In article <way2xtreme-NOSPAM...@valdiz.med.nyu.edu>,

way2xtrem...@aol.com (w e i) wrote:
> 1, tatonno's in coney island
> 2, patsi's underneath brooklyn bridge
>
> 3, dont go anywhere else

I got a very, very good pie at Arturo's on Houston St. a few weeks ago, don't
count them out. Stay away from the iceberg lettuce salad though. I had
expected them to be sorta over the hill, but the pie we got was topnotch. And
yes, I've lived in New Haven.

A Sally's story : this summer, we were passing through New Haven on our way
somewhere, so we called some friends and met them at Sally's. Pepe's was
closed, so there was quite a line. We waited. Once we got in, we waited. We
grumbled, we fidgeted, we all agreed, "It better be good after all this." I
think all told it was about two hours (!) before we finally got our pies.

It was worth the wait.

-j

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Neal Richardson

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Nov 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/19/98
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I have to agree with Arturo's. Forget about most of the other things on the
menu. Great atmosphere.

--
neal.ri...@cwix.com
ICQ: 8781347

Jeremy Epstein <7066...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
<72vbp5$n67$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

Peter

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Nov 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/23/98
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I like Ben's in Soho. The Palermo slice (w/ breadcrumbs) is very tasty.


CheeseNYC

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Nov 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/24/98
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>I like Ben's in Soho. The Palermo slice (w/ breadcrumbs) is very tasty.
>From: "Peter" <pe...@oculus.com>

Ben's gets my vote too .. also like Arturos on Houston and John's on Bleeker
Lynne D. Edelson
The Specialty Cheese Group, Ltd.

Peter

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Nov 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/24/98
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CheeseNYC wrote in message <19981124040305...@ng35.aol.com>...

>Ben's gets my vote too .. also like Arturos on Houston and John's on
Bleeker
>Lynne D. Edelson
>The Specialty Cheese Group, Ltd.

I have to disagree on the Bleecker John's. I think it's gone downhill since
they expanded. I was there about a month ago, and the pies we got had mushy
crusts and mushy peppers. Occasionally the one in midtown has good pizza,
but the service is terrible and rude to boot. I like Lombardi's on Spring,
and although I know this thread is about NY Pizza, I can't help putting in a
vote for Benny's Pizza on Washington and 6th in Hoboken.

Pete


jimp...@mindspring.com

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Nov 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/25/98
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I usually disagree with Zagut. My opinion is the same as Steven's --
the American public has an extremely uneducated and corrupted palate
thanks to the American food producers trying to beat the competition
by skimping on quality to save overhead, instead of trying to produce
better quality, as the Europeans generally do. Our palates are a mess!
BTW, I love Bigmacs.

Jim
Hartsdale, NY

CheeseNYC

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Nov 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/26/98
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>I have to disagree on the Bleecker John's. I think it's gone downhill since
>they expanded. I was there about a month ago, and the pies we got had mushy
>crusts and mushy peppers. Occasionally the one in midtown has good pizza,
>but the service is terrible and rude to boot. I like Lombardi's on Spring,
>and although I know this thread is about NY Pizza, I can't help putting in a
>vote for Benny's Pizza on Washington and 6th in Hoboken.
>
>Pete
>
Hmmm sorry to hear that about John's. I guess I haven't gone there in a few
months.
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