New York City ALT.NET - Monthly Meeting Location

[Yitzchok (adminjew)]

Hi Everyone,

We just got a location to host the meetings at Microsoft. - Thanks you Bill and Peter from MS


Meeting Information
Date: 4th Thursday every month (except Nov & Dec due to Thanksgiving and Christmas)

Time: Around 6:30 PM

Location:
Microsoft,
1290 Avenue of the Americas (the AXA building - bet. 51st/52nd Sts.), 6th floor

Directions:
B/D/F/V to 47th-50th Sts./Rockefeller Ctr
1 to 50th St./Bway
N/R/W to 49th St./7th Ave.



We hope to see you there at our first meeting Sep 25.

Thanks
Yitzchok

[Daniel Berlin]

Hey everyone,

I just created our meetup.com presence! (I paid for 6 months, $72 or so.  I'm fine eating this cost for the moment)

I sent everyone an invitation email.  I am still learning about the tool, but they said that they will be sending out emails to local software developers about the new group in a few days.  Do we have the list of potential topics?  I can post that to the September meetup description.

Thanks!
Dan

[Tim Marman]

Also, I just got the website that Yitzchok put together last week set up. http://nyalt.net

[Daniel Berlin]

I will update the meetup with this address, I had put the google sites address there.

-Dan

[Stephen Bohlen]

And I'm nearly done with draft 01 of the announcement of the first meeting (for distro to NYC .NET usergroup members).

 

We are going to need to either identify a single topic or a coherent collection of topics to mention in the announcement pretty soon.

 

What are people's thougthts about this as follows?

 

a) single topic or a group of related topics (I feel meeting 01 should be a single topic to keep initial meeting well-focused since we don't know qty of attendees to expect, but that's just me)

 

b) what topics from the list that we drafted from the planning mtg do people feel would make both a) good discussion meat and b) attract potential members?

 

-Steve B.

On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Tim Marman <t...@marman.org> wrote:

[Alex Hung]

Cool. The only issue I see is that the links on the left are not working :)

[Alex Hung]

+1 on single topic.

I think we need to pick a topic that we are expert in. So for example, while I would love to talk about EF I am no expert with it so I won't think it would make a good topic if I were to give that talk. On the other hand, I can easily discuss the ins and outs of CI so I would volunteer to speak on that. Thus, whichever topic we pick we need to ensure we have the competency in our group to discuss in length.

Personally I'd put my vote on Process vs Tool, or ORM tools.

[Alex Hung]

Steve,

Can you share your draft with the group? Is it up on the Google Doc for sharing? Not for critiquing :) just simply interested in reading it.

Alex

PS. The reason I am kind of pushing hard for things to be done is that the earlier we have an announcement and topic, the more time we have to promote the first meeting. I'll be sharing this with the ThoughtWork NY office so hopefully some TWers would also turn up.

On Aug 27, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Stephen Bohlen wrote:

[Stephen Bohlen]

I can; I'm in a mtg until end of day (this msg from bberry) but will try to do so (post back to gdocs) before end of the day else after I get home tonight from sit-down w Oren (about 9pm or so).

---

From: Alex Hung <alex....@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:25:42 -0400

[Stephen Bohlen]

Here is the draft announcement for review (attached).  I also posted it to the google docs site but I am in a rush to get to a meeting and so don't have the 20 minutes it will take me to figure out how to share a doc in google docs (could that process possible be more obtuse?????).

 

In any event, take a look and comment please; if this doesn't find its way into the inboxes of the rest of the group, could you distribute it to all for comment on my behalf --?  I'm in meetings until mid-afternoon today so will be out-of-pocket for some time,

 

Thanks,

 

-Steve B.

[William Zack]

Re our discussion on UltraEdit last night. See http://www.ultraedit.com/.

 

Not only can you edit extremely large files by turning off buffering and undo but you can format displayed data in columns for easier reading of things like records to be loaded into a database.  Of course it can also edit in hex.  The developer Ian Meade has made this product his life’s work.

 

I am tempted to say “tell them I sent you” but I really don’t get a commission. J

 

Bill

[mhenderson]

I think this looks good.

Also, +1 one the OR/M topic. I think it's a solid inaugural topic
that has good potential to pull in developers that aren't yet part of
the alt.net community.

Thanks,
Michael

On Aug 28, 7:35 am, "Stephen Bohlen" <sboh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is the draft announcement for review (attached).  I also posted it to
> the google docs site but I am in a rush to get to a meeting and so don't
> have the 20 minutes it will take me to figure out how to share a doc in
> google docs (could that process possible be more obtuse?????).
>
> In any event, take a look and comment please; if this doesn't find its way
> into the inboxes of the rest of the group, could you distribute it to all
> for comment on my behalf --?  I'm in meetings until mid-afternoon today so
> will be out-of-pocket for some time,
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Steve B.
>

> On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Stephen Bohlen <sboh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I can; I'm in a mtg until end of day (this msg from bberry) but will try to
> > do so (post back to gdocs) before end of the day else after I get home
> > tonight from sit-down w Oren (about 9pm or so).
>

> > ------------------------------
> > *From*: Alex Hung <alex.y.h...@gmail.com>
> > *Date*: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:25:42 -0400
>
> > *To*: <nyal...@googlegroups.com>
> > *Subject*: Re: New York City ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> - Monthly Meeting

> >> *From:* nyal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:nyal...@googlegroups.com] *On
> >> Behalf Of *Daniel Berlin
> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:13 AM
> >> *To:* nyal...@googlegroups.com
> >> *Subject:* Re: New York City ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> - Monthly Meeting

> >> Location
>
> >> Hey everyone,
>
> >> I just created our meetup.com presence! (I paid for 6 months, $72 or so.
> >> I'm fine eating this cost for the moment)
>
> >> I sent everyone an invitation email.  I am still learning about the tool,
> >> but they said that they will be sending out emails to local software
> >> developers about the new group in a few days.  Do we have the list of
> >> potential topics?  I can post that to the September meetup description.
>
> >> Thanks!
> >> Dan
>

> >> On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Yitzchok (adminjew) <admin...@gmail.com>

> >> wrote:
>
> >> Hi Everyone,
>
> >> We just got a location to host the meetings at Microsoft. - Thanks you
> >> Bill and Peter from MS
>
> >> Meeting Information

> >> *Date*: *4th Thursday* every month (except Nov & Dec due to Thanksgiving
> >> and Christmas)*
>
> >> Time*: Around *6:30* PM
>
> >> *Location*:

> >> Microsoft,
> >> 1290 Avenue of the Americas (the AXA building - bet. 51st/52nd Sts.), 6th
> >> floor

> >> *
> >> Directions:
> >> *B/D/F/V to 47th-50th Sts./Rockefeller Ctr

> >> 1 to 50th St./Bway
> >> N/R/W to 49th St./7th Ave.
>

> >> We hope to see you there at our first meeting *Sep 25*.
>
> >> Thanks
> >> Yitzchok
>
>
>
> [ALT.NET Announcement.txt]
>
> ***ANNOUNCING THE FIRST NEW YORK CITY ALT.NET USER GROUP MEETING***
>
> Come and be there at the start of something special!  The inaugural meeting of the New York City ALT.NET User Group will be held Thursday, September 25th, 2008 @ 6:30pm.
>
> Are you passionate about the profession of Software Engineering, always looking for new learning experiences, stimulated by engaging in conversation with peers who challenge your preconceptions, and looking to improve your software development skills and practice?  Then ALT.NET NYC wants YOU!
>
> What is ALT.NET?
>
> ALT.NET is a loose confederation of like-minded, self-organizing .NET-focused software developers that delight in challenging the expected norms, experimenting with new and creative ways to solve problems in software engineering on the Microsoft platform, and aren't afraid to challenge convention.
>
> We will be meeting monthly to discuss issues that interest us in a loose, informal discussion-style environment.  All software developers of every stripe are hereby extended an invitation to participate in the discussion or just come and see what all this ALT.NET stuff is about.
>
> --if O/RM is the chosen topic--------------------------
>
> To get things started, our initial meeting will be focused on a discussion of the pros and cons of different Object-Relational Mapping technologies.  With the recent releases of the Microsoft ADO.NET Entity Framework, NHibernate 2.0, and SubSonic 2.1, the .NET Object-Relational Mapping space is hotter now than ever and the choices facing .NET developers in this area are widely-varying in their focus, capabilities, principles, and goals.
>
> Participants will be on-hand to discuss their experiences with tools like NHibernate, SubSonic, The ADO.NET Entity Framework, and more offering attendees a unique opportunity to ramp up their understanding of where each of these kinds of tools may fit into their developer's tool belt and also to share some of their own experiences with these tools and frameworks with other attendees in a relaxed, conversational atmosphere.
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> --if Tools vs. Process is the chosen topic--------------------------------------
>
> As software developers, the choice of tools often engenders heated debate, but the choice of software development process can be even more contentious!  ALT.NET membership is comprised of developers from all walks of life including software consultants, corporate IT developers, web 2.0 start-ups, and more.  Our initial meeting will focus on a frank discussion about the processes ALT.NET software developers use and the tools that support them in a no-holes-barred discussion about what works and what doesn't in these wildly-differing situations.
>
> Come Share your own experiences and learn from your peers how others are practicing the profession of software engineering in these different work environments.
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> --if Continuous Integration is the chosen topic---------------------------
>
> When multiple team members work on a project, the longer you go without integrating all their work, the larger your risks on the project.  Our initial meeting will concentrate on Continuous Integration, the process of automatically integrating the work of the entire development team at regular intervals in the software development process.  This approach offers a tight feedback loop that can provide the entire project team immediate feedback on the health of the software project.
>
> Come share your experiences with Continuous Integration with the rest of the group or just come to learn more about the process, the tools, the implementation strategies, and the benefits this whole category of software engineering tooling can offer you and your team.
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Meeting Details are as follows:
>
> What: ALT.NET NYC User Group Monthly Meeting
> When: Thursday, 25th September, 2008 (and the 4th Thursday of every month after)
> Where: Microsoft Office
>   xxx Avenue of the Americas, Suite xxx
>   New York, NY 100xx
> How: BDFQ train to Rockefeller Center Station
>
> EVENT REGISTRATION:http://www.nyalt.net
>
> NOTE: You must register with your first and last name for this event at least 48 hours prior in order to be granted access to the meeting by building security.  Bring Photo ID with you to the meeting that matches the name with which you have registered for the event.

[Stephen Bohlen]

Tremendous.  Did I also overhear you say last evening that Eric Evans was coming to the Architecture Meetup?  Can you provide further details --?  This is something I might be interested in attending (if my sched allows).

 

-Steve B.

[William Zack]

Sending to the entire list in case anyone else is interested. J

[Tim Marman]

Ultraedit rocks.

[Don Demsak]

Is Forte going to show up if ORM is the topic?  ;)

 

Don Demsak

[Stephen Bohlen]

That blue color you see is me holding my breath :D

[William Zack]

I did plan to ask him to come if the topic is ORM (if he is in the country).  Should make for a lively discussion J

Bill

[Stephen Bohlen]

Actually, that would be quite welcome as I think the one perspective that otherwise probably wouldn't be (strongly) represented from our own group would indeed be the 'all ORMs are evil' perspective.  In the interests of ensuring that as many viewpoints as possible are represented (balance), I think this is an important one to have should this indeed be the topic of choice.

 

-Steve B.

[Database Weenie]

Sorry gang, I will be on Mt. Everest for all of Sept. Hopefully I can
make your Nov meeting. (I am away for Oct too.)

BTW, I don't think *all* ORMs are evil. I am afraid of the rogue query
as well as the folks who will use the ORM in areas where a simple SP
would be much faster. (Like a count of the number of customers for
example. Why load a million customers into a collection and then do a
Customers.Count when a SQL aggregate is a gazillion times faster?)
When you see my fellow EF Council-mate Eric Evans ask him to clarify
his position on ORM, it is just about the same as mine: the Customer
example is his, not mine.

I think that our positions are much closer than we think, just a lot
of hot air gets in the way of a real conversation. (That hot air
coming from the great state of Texas....)

:)

Good luck with the meeting, see you in November when I am back in NYC.

On Aug 29, 9:36 am, "Stephen Bohlen" <sboh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, that would be quite welcome as I think the one perspective that
> otherwise probably wouldn't be (strongly) represented from our own group
> would indeed be the 'all ORMs are evil' perspective.  In the interests of
> ensuring that as many viewpoints as possible are represented (balance), I
> think this is an important one to have should this indeed be the topic of
> choice.
>
> -Steve B.
>
> On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:12 AM, William Zack <wz...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >  I did plan to ask him to come if the topic is ORM (if he is in the
> > country).  Should make for a lively discussion J
>
> > Bill
>

> > *From:* nyal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:nyal...@googlegroups.com] *On

> > Behalf Of *Stephen Bohlen
> > *Sent:* Friday, August 29, 2008 9:06 AM

> > *To:* nyal...@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: New York City ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> - Monthly Meeting
> > Location
>

> > > [ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> Announcement.txt]
>
> > > ***ANNOUNCING THE FIRST NEW YORK CITY ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> USER

> > GROUP MEETING***
>
> > > Come and be there at the start of something special!  The inaugural

> > meeting of the New York City ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> User Group will be

> > held Thursday, September 25th, 2008 @ 6:30pm.
>
> > > Are you passionate about the profession of Software Engineering, always
> > looking for new learning experiences, stimulated by engaging in conversation
> > with peers who challenge your preconceptions, and looking to improve your

> > software development skills and practice?  Then ALT.NET <http://alt.net/>NYC wants YOU!
>
> > > What is ALT.NET <http://alt.net/>?
>
> > > ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> is a loose confederation of like-minded,

> > self-organizing .NET-focused software developers that delight in challenging
> > the expected norms, experimenting with new and creative ways to solve
> > problems in software engineering on the Microsoft platform, and aren't
> > afraid to challenge convention.
>
> > > We will be meeting monthly to discuss issues that interest us in a loose,
> > informal discussion-style environment.  All software developers of every
> > stripe are hereby extended an invitation to participate in the discussion or

> > just come and see what all this ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> stuff is about.

>
> > > --if O/RM is the chosen topic--------------------------
>
> > > To get things started, our initial meeting will be focused on a
> > discussion of the pros and cons of different Object-Relational Mapping

> > technologies.  With the recent releases of the Microsoft ADO.NET<http://ado.net/>Entity Framework, NHibernate 2.0, and SubSonic 2.1, the .NET

> > Object-Relational Mapping space is hotter now than ever and the choices
> > facing .NET developers in this area are widely-varying in their focus,
> > capabilities, principles, and goals.
>
> > > Participants will be on-hand to discuss their experiences with tools like

> > NHibernate, SubSonic, The ADO.NET <http://ado.net/> Entity Framework, and

> > more offering attendees a unique opportunity to ramp up their understanding
> > of where each of these kinds of tools may fit into their developer's tool
> > belt and also to share some of their own experiences with these tools and
> > frameworks with other attendees in a relaxed, conversational atmosphere.
>
> > > -------------------------------------------------
>
> > > --if Tools vs. Process is the chosen
> > topic--------------------------------------
>
> > > As software developers, the choice of tools often engenders heated
> > debate, but the choice of software development process can be even more

> > contentious!  ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> membership is comprised of

> > developers from all walks of life including software consultants, corporate
> > IT developers, web 2.0 start-ups, and more.  Our initial meeting will focus

> > on a frank discussion about the processes ALT.NET <http://alt.net/>software developers use and the tools that support them in a no-holes-barred

> > discussion about what works and what doesn't in these wildly-differing
> > situations.
>
> > > Come Share your own experiences and learn from your peers how others are
> > practicing the profession of software engineering in these different work
> > environments.
> > > -------------------------------------------------
>
> > > --if Continuous Integration is the chosen
> > topic---------------------------
>
> > > When multiple team members work on a project, the longer you go without
> > integrating all their work, the larger your risks on the project.  Our
> > initial meeting will concentrate on Continuous Integration, the process of
> > automatically integrating the work of the entire development team at regular
> > intervals in the software development process.  This approach offers a tight
> > feedback loop that can provide the entire project team immediate feedback on
> > the health of the software project.
>
> > > Come share your experiences with Continuous Integration with the rest of
> > the group or just come to learn more about the process, the tools, the
> > implementation strategies, and the benefits this whole category of software
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Mark Pollack]

Hi,

I can't resist....no decent ORM is that foolish in its approach. Clearly
education on the matter is needed if Eric comes away with that impression.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: nyal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:nyal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf

[Yitzchok (adminjew)]

Ha ha Steve Forte, So we are all talking about the same thing (It's
just that an ORM Gets count from the DB without loading all the
items ;) ).

I Vote the ORM topic.

I think that the ORM topic is also more heard of by people now that
there is Linq2Sql (Maybe you should add that to your list that's out
longer then Linq2Ent)


Also maybe its good to bring out that this group is for all
programmers that want to learn and make CHANGE (Like Obama says;).

[Stephen Bohlen]

Have a nice trip...the journey, I mean, not a trip that tumbles you down the mountain of course :)  Sounds like a nice vacation -- I'm envious.

 

I agree that we aren't as far apart as might be surmised; selecting an ORM doesn't mean I don't care about the SQL, just that I don't want to be responsible for writing most of it until i need to be.  Persistance was solved 1000 years ago; I don't want it in my face until I need to look closely at it.  'Raise your level of abstraction to the point where the abstraction isn't causing you pain', has always been my mantra in any software development effort.

 

Pointing to peole who are using any tooling in a poor/bad/dangerous/inefficient/ill-informed manner isn't a useful way to demonstrate issues with any tool (be they data access strategies or anything else).  BTW, just for the record there are several ways to count customers using NHibernate without retrieving them from the DB.  In November when you return I'd love to show them to you :)

 

Have fun~!

 

-Steve B.

[Database Weenie]

Thanks. It will be a great climb, I am actually the expedition leader
believe it or not. (I do a lot of climbing when I am not coding.)
There is a link on my blog to "steve and the tank" that will have a
daily feed of our trip if you care about Everest and such.(We are
going to use a sat phone to phone in our updates.)

We also raised $25k for Comp2Kids, a local NYC charity that puts
computers (preloaded with NHibernate of course!) in inner city
schools. We are sponsoring Roberto Clemente High School. We are taking
additional donations, if you want to donate here is the link:
http://www.comp2kids.kintera.org/faf/home/default.asp?ievent=279107

See you guys soon.

On Aug 29, 11:06 am, "Stephen Bohlen" <sboh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have a nice trip...the journey, I mean, not a trip that tumbles you down the
> mountain of course :)  Sounds like a nice vacation -- I'm envious.
>
> I agree that we aren't as far apart as might be surmised; selecting an ORM
> doesn't mean I don't care about the SQL, just that I don't want to be

> responsible for writing most of it *until i need to be*.  Persistance was

> solved 1000 years ago; I don't want it in my face until I need to look
> closely at it.  'Raise your level of abstraction to the point where the
> abstraction isn't causing you pain', has always been my mantra in any
> software development effort.
>

> Pointing to peole who are using *any* tooling in a

> poor/bad/dangerous/inefficient/ill-informed manner isn't a useful way to
> demonstrate issues with any tool (be they data access strategies or anything
> else).  BTW, just for the record there are several ways to count customers
> using NHibernate without retrieving them from the DB.  In November when you
> return I'd love to show them to you :)
>
> Have fun~!
>
> -Steve B.
> On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Database Weenie

> <stephenfo...@hotmail.com>wrote:

> > > > > [ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> <http://alt.net/> Announcement.txt]

>
> > > > > ***ANNOUNCING THE FIRST NEW YORK CITY ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> <
> >http://alt.net/> USER
> > > > GROUP MEETING***
>
> > > > > Come and be there at the start of something special!  The inaugural
> > > > meeting of the New York City ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> <
> >http://alt.net/> User Group will be
> > > > held Thursday, September 25th, 2008 @ 6:30pm.
>
> > > > > Are you passionate about the profession of Software Engineering,
> > always
> > > > looking for new learning experiences, stimulated by engaging in
> > conversation
> > > > with peers who challenge your preconceptions, and looking to improve
> > your
> > > > software development skills and practice?  Then ALT.NET<http://alt.net/><
> >http://alt.net/>NYC wants YOU!
>

> > > > > What is ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> <http://alt.net/>?
>
> > > > > ALT.NET <http://alt.net/> <http://alt.net/> is a loose confederation

> > of like-minded,
> > > > self-organizing .NET-focused software developers that delight in
> > challenging
> > > > the expected norms, experimenting with new and creative ways to solve
> > > > problems in software
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Stephen Bohlen]

>>>preloaded with Nhibernate, of course

 

LOL (really, LOL).

 

Nice one~!

 

I'll def follow the progress of your team up there; I admit to some curiousity about the trip.  Enjoy.

 

-Steve B.

[Don Demsak]

I was looking to prime the pump, and it seems to have worked ;)

 

It's all about being pragmatic.  ORMs have their place, and so does datasets.  The key is to know when it is appropriate to use each one.  The problem is that most developers are stuck in their ways, and only use the only approach they know.  IMHO ALT.Net has always been about learning new approaches and thinking outside of the box.  This whole ORM debate was silly from the start.  

 

But I still will not recommend EF ;)  Sending  business objects over the wire via WCF is usually a bad idea.  About as bad as sending Datasets over web services.  There are always cases where you have to do it, but you need to know that it is a brittle design, and accept the tradeoffs.

[Stephen Bohlen]

Agreed.  Conext is king and any recommended software design approach absent an understanding of context is pointless.

 

But I won't recommend EF either <g>.

[Alex Hung]

Well, looks like we still have a lot of milage left in the ORM debate! So shall we pick this as our first meeting topic?

Let's have a roll call :)

Alex

[Stephen Bohlen]

I vote YES.  Topic of high interest among likley existing ALT.NETter attendees, wide-interest among non-ALT.NETters to broaden the reach.

 

Others?

[Daniel Berlin]

I agree, I personally have only cursory understanding of the topic, and would love to learn more and discuss.

-Dan

[Yitzchok (adminjew)]

So it looks like we are all for ORM for the first meeting?!
Signup location is the Meetup Site - http://softwaredev.meetup.com/118.

Now what's with speakers? (Should we add this to the announcement)
How will this event be given? (A few speakers, One speaker,...)

Anything else?