Re: [NWRUG] [JOBS] Remote software developer with Thermeon

[Chris Seaton]

Jeff,

The guidelines for NWRUG say that you should reply to jobs posts off-list.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/nwrug-members/pkCjJAhCRwI/ddzTFK3wAcAJ

These nasty replies make people avoid posting jobs to NWRUG. I’m hiring at the moment, but I will never post about it here because I could do without the criticism that seems to come no matter how well-intentioned the job advert is.

If you don’t like the job advert, don’t apply for it.

Chris

> On 6 Feb 2016, at 18:54, Jeff Lawson <j...@cogentlogic.com> wrote:
>
> Gareth,
>
> You are big on what you want from people but say almost nothing about what
> you can offer people. No mention of working conditions, hours of work,
> pension, training, equity, etc. You hold out the offer of £30-£50K. £30K
> is an ridiculous for someone who has the skills that you want.
>
> You say you want developers to be happy but only because you think that
> will increase their productivity.
>
> I cannot imagine any self-respecting developer wanting to work for you,
> given your disregard of employee side.
>
>
> Jeff Lawson
>
>
> On Wed, February 3, 2016 9:43 am, Gareth Kirwan wrote:
>> Thermeon are looking for software developers to join our UK team. This
>> role is ideally suited to junior and mid-level developers, with a couple
>> of years experience under their belts.
>>
>> Thermeon’s technical team has a specific culture. The entire team works
>> remotely. We want our developers to be happy, and working on things they
>> enjoy, in order to be as productive as possible. We track down and remove
>> sources of pain in the way of that, so you can get on with doing what you
>> want. We’re highly connected via IRC and google hangouts, and work
>> together to deliver solutions. We have daily team meetings, and encourage
>> a team mindset, instead of a hierarchy.
>>
>> There’s no single mold we’re looking for, but here’s a few
>> indications that you’ll fit in well with us: * You’ve been creating
>> things using computers for a long time * You reach for technology to solve
>> everyday problems * You’re familiar with your environment. It isn’t
>> something you use, it’s something you own. * You like talking to
>> communities about technologies. Probably in IRC, slack, gitter or similar
>> * You’ve probably tried more email clients than cereals
>> * You’re deliberate about the workflows you use, and you internalise
>> them as a concept * You know what technologies are interesting right now,
>> and which ones have grown into maturity. That might be libraries, or
>> technical stacks, but you’ve got your finger on a pulse * You’ve
>> contributed to FOSS somehow.
>>
>> Here’s what we look for. The more you meet, the better. You should:
>> * Be very proficient in linux, zsh/bash/similar, ssh, tmux/screen/similar,
>> vim/emacs/similar * Be proficient in at least two programming languages
>> and eager to learn more * Know git. No, Not just source control. If you
>> don’t know git, you’ve dodged too much FOSS * Have heard of docker
>> * Understand web services and web servers
>> * Know of TDD and CI
>> * Know of agile practices, scrum and preferably kanban too
>> * Know about several databases. Relational and NoSQL preferably
>> * Know the basics of computer networking
>> * Have a few years of commercial experience as a developer
>> * Have found our website. That’s why we haven’t told you about the
>> company.
>>
>> These are about your character, not about your knowledge.
>>
>>
>> This advert isn’t about what the role will be doing. If you fit in with
>> the culture, then you’ll add value by doing whatever you’re good at
>> and enjoy.
>>
>> Here’s the stack we’re currently interested in:
>> * Golang, ruby, perl
>> * Docker, terraform, mesos, marathon, haproxy
>> * cassandra, redis, elasticsearch, kibana, logstash, grafana
>> * github, circleci, coveralls
>> * backbone, grunt, extjs
>>
>>
>> Ideally you should have experience working remotely, but it’s not
>> essential. It’s certainly a skill, and if you haven’t done it before,
>> there’s a risk it might not be right for you. You must have a suitable
>> stable environment free of distractions.
>>
>> Salary is negotiable. In the ballpark of £30-50k.
>>
>>
>> We look forward to hearing from you!
>>
>>
>> Gareth
>>
>>
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>>
>
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[Tekin Suleyman]

As Chris has pointed out, our guidelines for job posts also cover replying. If you are interested in a position, contact the poster directly. If you feel you have important, constructive, and civil feedback you want to give the original poster, do so off the list.

Please also make yourself familiar with our code of conduct for member participation:

http://nwrug.org/code-of-conduct

We want to maintain a positive and civil atmosphere both here on the list as well as at our meet ups. 

Tekin

[Louis Goff-Beardsley]

To be fair, although harsh, IMO Jeff is actually providing valuable feedback to OP and to any potential observers. I’d put it to you that over time this has a net positive effect on employee conditions.

 

If restricted from being able to express such public critique these posts would go unchallenged and outside observers (more corporate entities looking to hire Rubyists) might think they are the norm and silimar offerings would be perpetuated.

 

Best, Louis.

Louis Goff-Beardsley

Ultra-specialised Independent Ruby Recruitment
https://www.linkedin.com/in/louisbeardsley

"I just can't stop thinking about Ruby on Rails"

Mobile: 07449 324 851 BBS: 0118 327 1821

Skype/Googletalk: Loui...@gmail.com

@LouisRoR

irc.freenode.org - LouisRoR - #Ruby #LRUG #NWRUG #Pokemonchat

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[Graham Ashton]

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016, at 12:01 PM, Louis Goff-Beardsley wrote:

> To be fair, although harsh, IMO Jeff is actually providing valuable
> feedback to OP and to any potential observers. I’d put it to you that over
> time this has a net positive effect on employee conditions.

I’d agree with you Louis, if I thought we all felt the same way Jeff does about the original post. There’ll be a range of opinions.

I don’t share Jeff’s feelings, so I’m not sure I’d like future job postings to be influenced that heavily as a result.

If I was looking for a job, and the salary/seniority was a good fit for me, a post like Gareth's would probably lead to me getting in touch for a chat. The only thing it was missing from my point of view was a 2 sentence summary of what Thermeon do (it’s part of my “are we a good fit?” criteria). I’d always expect to uncover more about what was on offer via email, or over the phone. I only mention this to provide context for why I thought it was fine.

But back to your point – if advertisers had lots of feedback (representing multiple points of view) to influence their future posts, then I’m sure it’d be useful to them. I think you’d need to focus on positive feedback over negative feedback though, otherwise all you’d have is a list of “don’t do this, or this… or this…” which wouldn’t make Ruby seem very approachable!

[Gareth Kirwan]

I hadn’t engaged in this previously, but I’d actually like to share a bit of background about this advert now. It may be interesting, or just illuminating.

We’ve traditionally posted adverts that conform to a fairly standard template. We’ve also used recruiters. During the interview we’d then try to talk about the ways that working for us is different, and the things that matter to us. I’d get a lot of poorly matched applications, and waste a lot of time, both for the applicants, and for me.

I decided to change tactics. I’ve been hiring developers for this company for over a decade and it seemed I’d fallen into a pattern. At first it was just nibbling around the edges, but then I junked the whole advert template and started from scratch. I wanted to convey what we’re looking for directly, rather than trying to work out how to list skills and requirements and somehow make that produce the right people. The culture matters much more to us than the skills or the experience.

So I didn’t list any skills or requirements. Just some of what care about, and what we’re interested in. If someone fits with our culture, then specific skills can be easily learned.

For the most part this has gone exceptionally well. It got picked up by quite a few remote working lists, and reposted, and I received about a hundred top quality applications. Very few poor applications, very few recruiters, very few outsourcing teams. Most of the applicants cited the application itself as why they’re interested in talking to us, which was gratifying.

I’m not going to address Jeff’s actual comments, because I don’t want to cause a debate that the organisers of this list wanted to avoid, and I agree with them. If people don’t like the advert, or the salary, then I’d encourage them to ignore it and move on, and that’s fine. I do appreciate, though, that Jeff was probably trying to help me, and I’ve considered his feedback. Perhaps I should have replied earlier to thank Jeff for it.

Gareth

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[Tekin Suleyman]

Thanks all for your responses.

Knowing what the best thing to do with regard to job posts is very hard. They’ve always been divisive and the current guidelines were put in place because we’d seen too many snarky and sometimes outright nasty responses to job posts, particularly in response to posts from recruiters. I thought that the best way to avoid the bad vibes was to prevent any replies to job posts on-list. Maybe this is a step too far. Maybe now that we have an explicit code of conduct, we can loosen the rules.

I will say one thing though, I am not convinced that replying here to tell people what is wrong with their job posts is a good way to improve employee conditions, especially if it discourages employers from posting out of fear. Much more than that though, this group and the local community is best served if the list is kept positive, friendly, welcoming and constructive. Very few job post replies I’ve seen help achieve that.

If we want to a debate about employee conditions, wages and day-rates to help folks new and old to the industry, then I am well up for that. I just don’t believe that job posts replies are the best place for it.

Also, if anyone is looking for work, or needs help or advice on anything work related, perm or freelance, I’m more than happy to chat at the meetup next week. Same goes for any employers that want help hiring or putting together a job post.

Tekin

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