Feeling Good vs Doing Good!
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Michael
Mar 10, 2009, 6:56:13 PM3/10/09
to Northwest Washington Dennis Prager Discussion Group
Michael Spencer, writing in the Christian Science Monitor, predicts
that evangelicalism will all but disappear in 10 years or so. I agree
with much of his reasoning, but not his conclusion. I offer this to
the group, because I referenced a young man who called into DP's show
this morning as supporting the idea that many young people of all of
the Judeo-Christian faiths value their faith for how it makes them
feel, not what they are called to do.
You can access Mr. Spencer's article from my Blog here:
http://themoralchristian.blogspot.com/2009/03/coming-evangelical-collapse.html
Please give Mr.Spencer's article some time. Of course, if you're so
inclined, read the post as well. And, if you have any time to spare, I
would hope you might share your thoughts with the rest of the group.
Peace,
that evangelicalism will all but disappear in 10 years or so. I agree
with much of his reasoning, but not his conclusion. I offer this to
the group, because I referenced a young man who called into DP's show
this morning as supporting the idea that many young people of all of
the Judeo-Christian faiths value their faith for how it makes them
feel, not what they are called to do.
You can access Mr. Spencer's article from my Blog here:
http://themoralchristian.blogspot.com/2009/03/coming-evangelical-collapse.html
Please give Mr.Spencer's article some time. Of course, if you're so
inclined, read the post as well. And, if you have any time to spare, I
would hope you might share your thoughts with the rest of the group.
Peace,
Daniel Crandall
Mar 10, 2009, 11:24:41 PM3/10/09
to nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com
Michael (Peterson not Spencer ;-) ) makes some very good points at his blog.
I am torn on how to exactly respond to what Spencer wrote. Michael states
that he agrees with Spencer's reasoning. I find some flaws in the sense that
Spencer writes in the future tense when, in fact, much of what he "predicts"
has already happened; specifically the marginalizing and attacks on
Christianity as "the opponent of the common good." And the extent to which
he does recognize it, he lays the blame for this on the Evangelical
Protestant's doorstep. To me, this amounts to blaming the victim.
It doesn't matter what language an Evangelical Christian used in response to
a particular issue, or whether or not an Evangelical 20-something could
articulate the Gospels, secularists will always attack Christians as an
enemies of so-called progress. We see this time and time again on issues
from embryonic stem cells to same-sex marriage to education to how best to
feed, cloth and house the hungry, poor and homeless. Catholic and Orthodox
Christians, grounded in scripture and theology, get no better treatment by
Secularists than do Evangelicals.
I would like to add something to this as a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy,
from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and one who meets a lot of folks
who have left Evangelical Protestantism for Orthodoxy. Being part of a
deeply grounded church, in the sense of Scripture and history, is no defense
against a weak faith. I meet just as many people Greek Orthodox churches who
more in tune with secular culture than with the Gospels. There are probably
far more people at an Orthodox liturgy who care more about being perceived
as politically correct than they do about witnessing for Christ outside the
doors of the narthex. And don't even get me started on Eastern Orthodoxy's
ethnic issues.
I daresay that passing on the Tradition to our posterity has been a problem
ever since the Apostles were preaching to the pagans in the 1st Century. And
there were probably folks back then predicting Christianity's demise back
then as well (if they were not, in fact, actively trying to kill it). Mr.
Spencer should have spent some time among the Orthodox Christians in
Istanbul before he wrote his piece. That community is, quite literally
dying; strangled by the surrounding Islamic culture (and no amount of deep
Scriptural connection is going to change that). One can hardly say, that
because one day there may be no more Christians in Istanbul therefore
Orthodoxy may die off.
So what, exactly, is Mr. Spencer's point? That Evangelicals Protestants need
to ground their children in the Scriptures before they take on cultural
issues? To this I it is my experience that being grounded in Scripture and
the Church Fathers is inversely proportional to the extent to which one
addresses cultural issues. And if Mr. Spencer would like to see more
cultural engagement from a deeply rooted Christian faith, then he and I
would not be in disagreement. To some extent I think that is why some
Evangelicals Protestants end up leaving Protestantism for either Catholicism
or Orthodoxy. Two examples of this are Mark Shea (Catholic) and Fr. Peter
Gilquist (Orthodox).
My how I've gone on about this. I'll stop before I get myself in trouble (if
I haven't done that already).
Take care,
Daniel P. Crandall, M.A.
Blog: http://dpcrandall.wordpress.com
I am torn on how to exactly respond to what Spencer wrote. Michael states
that he agrees with Spencer's reasoning. I find some flaws in the sense that
Spencer writes in the future tense when, in fact, much of what he "predicts"
has already happened; specifically the marginalizing and attacks on
Christianity as "the opponent of the common good." And the extent to which
he does recognize it, he lays the blame for this on the Evangelical
Protestant's doorstep. To me, this amounts to blaming the victim.
It doesn't matter what language an Evangelical Christian used in response to
a particular issue, or whether or not an Evangelical 20-something could
articulate the Gospels, secularists will always attack Christians as an
enemies of so-called progress. We see this time and time again on issues
from embryonic stem cells to same-sex marriage to education to how best to
feed, cloth and house the hungry, poor and homeless. Catholic and Orthodox
Christians, grounded in scripture and theology, get no better treatment by
Secularists than do Evangelicals.
I would like to add something to this as a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy,
from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and one who meets a lot of folks
who have left Evangelical Protestantism for Orthodoxy. Being part of a
deeply grounded church, in the sense of Scripture and history, is no defense
against a weak faith. I meet just as many people Greek Orthodox churches who
more in tune with secular culture than with the Gospels. There are probably
far more people at an Orthodox liturgy who care more about being perceived
as politically correct than they do about witnessing for Christ outside the
doors of the narthex. And don't even get me started on Eastern Orthodoxy's
ethnic issues.
I daresay that passing on the Tradition to our posterity has been a problem
ever since the Apostles were preaching to the pagans in the 1st Century. And
there were probably folks back then predicting Christianity's demise back
then as well (if they were not, in fact, actively trying to kill it). Mr.
Spencer should have spent some time among the Orthodox Christians in
Istanbul before he wrote his piece. That community is, quite literally
dying; strangled by the surrounding Islamic culture (and no amount of deep
Scriptural connection is going to change that). One can hardly say, that
because one day there may be no more Christians in Istanbul therefore
Orthodoxy may die off.
So what, exactly, is Mr. Spencer's point? That Evangelicals Protestants need
to ground their children in the Scriptures before they take on cultural
issues? To this I it is my experience that being grounded in Scripture and
the Church Fathers is inversely proportional to the extent to which one
addresses cultural issues. And if Mr. Spencer would like to see more
cultural engagement from a deeply rooted Christian faith, then he and I
would not be in disagreement. To some extent I think that is why some
Evangelicals Protestants end up leaving Protestantism for either Catholicism
or Orthodoxy. Two examples of this are Mark Shea (Catholic) and Fr. Peter
Gilquist (Orthodox).
My how I've gone on about this. I'll stop before I get myself in trouble (if
I haven't done that already).
Take care,
Daniel P. Crandall, M.A.
Blog: http://dpcrandall.wordpress.com
Michael
Mar 11, 2009, 1:24:09 AM3/11/09
to nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com
Well said, Daniel.
For these, and other reasons, I suspect that one reason most [all?] of us
find Dennis Prager so engaging is because, well, he engages the culture
around him. He never surrenders to it while all the time honoring those with
whom he wrestles. Would that evangelicals might take lesson or two from
Dennis.
Cheers,
For these, and other reasons, I suspect that one reason most [all?] of us
find Dennis Prager so engaging is because, well, he engages the culture
around him. He never surrenders to it while all the time honoring those with
whom he wrestles. Would that evangelicals might take lesson or two from
Dennis.
Cheers,
Joel Cappello
Mar 11, 2009, 11:41:22 AM3/11/09
to nw-dennis-prag...@googlegroups.com
Daniel, thanks for taking the time for a thoughtful response. I didn't consider the 'blaming the victim' here. good food for thought.
-Joel Cappello
--- On Tue, 3/10/09, Daniel Crandall <dpcra...@gmail.com> wrote:
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