Common Responses of Those Who Oppose Gay Marriage
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Ján
Apr 14, 2009, 11:29:47 PM4/14/09
to NVC Practitioners Networking
These are the most common I and others have heard. I'm interested to
know how NVC would deal with these:
1) I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.
2) Marriage between same sex couples and and the gay "lifestyle"
destroys families.
3) I don't want my children being taught about same sex marriage in
school.
4) I think my children are too young to be seeing that "kind of
thing."
5) If my children see gay people married it might make them gay.
6) The moral fabric of this country is in danger because of gay
marriage.
7) I don't think the will of the people should be overturned by the
Judiciary system
8) Gay marriage is an abomination and goes against God.
9) I think children should have a father and mother and gay marriage
prevents this.
10) If gay people are allowed to get married then what's to stop
people from being polygimists or getting married to their dog?
know how NVC would deal with these:
1) I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.
2) Marriage between same sex couples and and the gay "lifestyle"
destroys families.
3) I don't want my children being taught about same sex marriage in
school.
4) I think my children are too young to be seeing that "kind of
thing."
5) If my children see gay people married it might make them gay.
6) The moral fabric of this country is in danger because of gay
marriage.
7) I don't think the will of the people should be overturned by the
Judiciary system
8) Gay marriage is an abomination and goes against God.
9) I think children should have a father and mother and gay marriage
prevents this.
10) If gay people are allowed to get married then what's to stop
people from being polygimists or getting married to their dog?
Craig (Weeee Aaaaah)
Apr 15, 2009, 9:35:36 AM4/15/09
to NVC Practitioners Networking
Hi Jan, I am guessing that this has some context that is not
immediately apparent from the post. I am wondering if you would mind
sharing that context. It is something of a puzzle to me what you mean
by NVC dealing with these statements. NVC is a strategy or conceptual
framework. So I am guessing that what you mean is how we as
individuals or perhaps even as a community of NVC committed
individuals might deal with someone who makes the following
statements.
I would start in self-empathy. Where am I coming from. What is the
beauty of the living energy of the needs that underly any reactivity
that I might be having. The general reaction from most of us might be
one of revulsion, anger, or maybe a resigned oh not this again, the
stupid religious right biggots. The needs beneath this might be for
justice or mutuality or community, each with a different flavor. It is
important to get these qualities out of the head alone and into the
field of our somatic (whole body) awareness if we want to connect and
not just be right and righteous.
Once I am well grounded in the living energy and the beauty of my
need and detriggered from the energy of "what an ignorant, asshole", I
may be ready for honesty or empathic guesses. In this situation, I am
going with the guesses. It is very difficult for me to stay in the
energy of my needs and out of the energy of my rightness and their
wrongness if I go to honesty at the first round, though role playing
honesty would be an interesting experiment, perhaps for other rounds.
My personal experience is that if I go into honesty, even if I am
pretty darn grounded that I am going to be met with defensiveness.
I will now take a stab at some empathic guesses in street giraffe.
On Apr 14, 8:29 pm, Ján <czech...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> These are the most common I and others have heard. I'm interested to
> know how NVC would deal with these:
>
> 1) I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.
So the importance of marriage is really big with you. It is a
container that holds the preciousness of intimacy and children. Or is
it something different?
remaing intact, vital places for parents and children to thrive and
support each other?
to live from you and your values and not by the government or the
state or some arbitrary outside force that contradicts your values?
and sexually fulfilled life?
what you perceive as abandoned living without regard to the needs and
importance of others of everyone not just me, me, me?
the will of the majority is followed in our government decisions?
Justice is really important to you is it not?
deeper truths we find in God?
energies is important in children developing a complete sense of
possibilities? You really value wholeness, or is it something
different? I am trying to understand what it is that is important to
you in what you just said.
importance, the holiness of marriage, sex, and children?
I realize that these guesses are not in strict OFNR and that they
encompass an attempt to get at the experience of the other, to
validate it as legitimate on some level of coming from needs or
genuine values.
I am curious about what this brings alive in anyone who reads.
Craig.
immediately apparent from the post. I am wondering if you would mind
sharing that context. It is something of a puzzle to me what you mean
by NVC dealing with these statements. NVC is a strategy or conceptual
framework. So I am guessing that what you mean is how we as
individuals or perhaps even as a community of NVC committed
individuals might deal with someone who makes the following
statements.
I would start in self-empathy. Where am I coming from. What is the
beauty of the living energy of the needs that underly any reactivity
that I might be having. The general reaction from most of us might be
one of revulsion, anger, or maybe a resigned oh not this again, the
stupid religious right biggots. The needs beneath this might be for
justice or mutuality or community, each with a different flavor. It is
important to get these qualities out of the head alone and into the
field of our somatic (whole body) awareness if we want to connect and
not just be right and righteous.
Once I am well grounded in the living energy and the beauty of my
need and detriggered from the energy of "what an ignorant, asshole", I
may be ready for honesty or empathic guesses. In this situation, I am
going with the guesses. It is very difficult for me to stay in the
energy of my needs and out of the energy of my rightness and their
wrongness if I go to honesty at the first round, though role playing
honesty would be an interesting experiment, perhaps for other rounds.
My personal experience is that if I go into honesty, even if I am
pretty darn grounded that I am going to be met with defensiveness.
I will now take a stab at some empathic guesses in street giraffe.
On Apr 14, 8:29 pm, Ján <czech...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> These are the most common I and others have heard. I'm interested to
> know how NVC would deal with these:
>
> 1) I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.
container that holds the preciousness of intimacy and children. Or is
it something different?
>
> 2) Marriage between same sex couples and and the gay "lifestyle"
> destroys families.
So do you have fear around the difficulty that families have in
> 2) Marriage between same sex couples and and the gay "lifestyle"
> destroys families.
remaing intact, vital places for parents and children to thrive and
support each other?
>
> 3) I don't want my children being taught about same sex marriage in
> school.
Are you passionate about wanting your kids learning skills about how
> 3) I don't want my children being taught about same sex marriage in
> school.
to live from you and your values and not by the government or the
state or some arbitrary outside force that contradicts your values?
>
> 4) I think my children are too young to be seeing that "kind of
> thing."
So you are protective of the innocense of your children?
> 4) I think my children are too young to be seeing that "kind of
> thing."
>
> 5) If my children see gay people married it might make them gay.
You want your kids to have the best chance possible of living a happy
> 5) If my children see gay people married it might make them gay.
and sexually fulfilled life?
>
> 6) The moral fabric of this country is in danger because of gay
> marriage.
You are scared when you see so much unhappiness and tragedy because of
> 6) The moral fabric of this country is in danger because of gay
> marriage.
what you perceive as abandoned living without regard to the needs and
importance of others of everyone not just me, me, me?
>
> 7) I don't think the will of the people should be overturned by the
> Judiciary system
You really believe in democratic values and that we are best off when
> 7) I don't think the will of the people should be overturned by the
> Judiciary system
the will of the majority is followed in our government decisions?
Justice is really important to you is it not?
>
> 8) Gay marriage is an abomination and goes against God.
So you really believe that we are all best off when we follow the
> 8) Gay marriage is an abomination and goes against God.
deeper truths we find in God?
>
> 9) I think children should have a father and mother and gay marriage
> prevents this.
So you believe that the balance between feminine and masculine
> 9) I think children should have a father and mother and gay marriage
> prevents this.
energies is important in children developing a complete sense of
possibilities? You really value wholeness, or is it something
different? I am trying to understand what it is that is important to
you in what you just said.
>
> 10) If gay people are allowed to get married then what's to stop
> people from being polygimists or getting married to their dog?
So you think that it is important that society recognize the
> 10) If gay people are allowed to get married then what's to stop
> people from being polygimists or getting married to their dog?
importance, the holiness of marriage, sex, and children?
I realize that these guesses are not in strict OFNR and that they
encompass an attempt to get at the experience of the other, to
validate it as legitimate on some level of coming from needs or
genuine values.
I am curious about what this brings alive in anyone who reads.
Craig.
Ján
Apr 15, 2009, 7:06:23 PM4/15/09
to NVC Practitioners Networking
Hi Craig,
Thank you for offering your insightful responses. I'm working with
Kathi to develop a communication script for a voter canvassing
program. I've co-founded a grassroots LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual
Transgendered) civil rights non profit in Long Beach, CA. We're
working on talking with voters, specifically those who supported
Proposition 8, to understand why they're adverse to marriage
equality.
Scripts I've followed for past phone banks and canvasses for marriage
equality rarely allowed me to connect very well. They're designed to
persuade people and have varying degrees of success. And, they don't
address the underlying feelings and needs. In order for true social
change to come about a visceral understanding of those needs, I've
concluded, must come from both sides. I would like to, if possible,
find a way to incorporate NVC into my canvassing program and use it as
a tool for healing for all sides. Hence my set of questions.
I appreciate any additional thoughts and or feelings you may have.
Best,
Ján
On Apr 15, 6:35 am, "Craig (Weeee Aaaaah)"
Craig (Weeee Aaaaah)
Apr 17, 2009, 2:23:19 AM4/17/09
to NVC Practitioners Networking
Hi Jan, I am happy to provide more thoughts and opinions. From some
work on Moral Intuition that I found on the web, I have personally
surmised that the whole approach to those who oppose marriage equality
is ineffective when it is based on an appeal to justice or equality
not because I do not believe it, but because it appeals to those of us
who are already committed to offering the benefits of marriage to
every couple who seeks such a status recogniation and does not really
appeal to those who oppose such. I would take a tack that is something
more like, ya I get that you are scared that marriage is under a lot
of stress and attack and that families often find themselves in
crisis. But if we deny marriage to gay and lesbian couples who are
interested in forming a family, we are endangering the kids of such
families form the support that our society offers all families. Put
the emphasis on gay families and the children not on abstractions such
as justice and fairness and the like.
If you get a come back that smacks of ya but gays are so out there
with their promiscuity, I would emphasize something like do you sense
that the media portrays your beliefs and perspectives fairly or do you
find that only the extremists are portrayed for emotional impact and
to inflame feelings and prejudices. Most conservatives sense that it
is entirely unfair that abortion protestors who are mainly
grandmothers concerned that women and babies are being hurt in
abortions are almost never portrayed in the media which favors the
rabid, hell bent on damnation men and shooters. I know that this is
dangeroulsy close to seeming like we are judging our more flamboyant
brothers and sisters as somehow wrong, but it has a chance to open up
a conversation about the millions of gays and lesbians who want to
settle down and raise a family with full support of the resrouces of
our society and culture. These folks are never portrayed because like
most of us they are rather booring in the media sensationalistic
sense.
This also raises the possibility of talking about the gay or lesbian
couple who have been together for decades and are denied a voice in
end of life decisions for their partners, or the fact that domestic
partners are not allowed to apply for Cobra continuation of medical
benefits as a husband and wife would if one of the partners loses a
job.
I guess that engaging in this kind of dialog is an art as much as a
scriptable science. I know that phone bankers do not want a lot of
free lance arguing and emotion and so use scripts and the like. I get
that they want to curb reactoin from the public.
This is not a simple issue and I do not pretend to have and kind of
final answers. I know that I am enjoying this dialog and hope that we
can continue the discussion. I am interested in what others might have
to suggest as far as empathic guesses and responses to Jan's
questions.
On Apr 15, 4:06 pm, Ján <czech...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Craig,
>
> Thank you for offering your insightful responses. I'm working with
> Kathi to develop a communication script for a voter canvassing
> program. I've co-founded a grassroots LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual
> Transgendered) civil rights non profit in Long Beach, CA. We're
> working on talking with voters, specifically those who supported
> Proposition 8, to understand why they're adverse to marriage
> equality.
I don't think that those opposed frame it as marriage equality but
another left winged, liberal attack on a battered and important
instuition. Again, the emphasis on supporting those who make a
decision to have children and raise them with support of the state is
what is really at stake as far as I am concerned with marriage. In my
experience in High School, I have often been puzzled by the visceral
depth of anti gay speech and sometimes action on the part of teens in
inner city schools. I am imagining that is in part a domination
culture thing, but it is something that I have difficulty offering
empathy with when a young one says that usually he wants to kill the
mother fucking faggots with real intensity.
perspective that I might have. I am an ex-orthodox Catholic and would
be happy to roll play a more thoughtful advocate of traditional
positions as you develop your scripts. I would prefer to do that via
phone or Skype. You or anyone in your organization can call me at
310.791.9738 or Skype me at craig.sones.cornell and we can set an
appointment for collaboration. I am not sure how much volunteer time I
can put in, but I am willing to go a few rounds of roll play on either
side of the question. I live in Redondo Beach, so a life collaboration
or staff training is also possible. Let's put our needs on the table
and soul storm.
> I appreciate any additional thoughts and or feelings you may have.
I appreciate the opportunity to contribute and find my needs met for
stimulation, growth, and inclusiveness by this here.
> Best,
>
> Ján
work on Moral Intuition that I found on the web, I have personally
surmised that the whole approach to those who oppose marriage equality
is ineffective when it is based on an appeal to justice or equality
not because I do not believe it, but because it appeals to those of us
who are already committed to offering the benefits of marriage to
every couple who seeks such a status recogniation and does not really
appeal to those who oppose such. I would take a tack that is something
more like, ya I get that you are scared that marriage is under a lot
of stress and attack and that families often find themselves in
crisis. But if we deny marriage to gay and lesbian couples who are
interested in forming a family, we are endangering the kids of such
families form the support that our society offers all families. Put
the emphasis on gay families and the children not on abstractions such
as justice and fairness and the like.
If you get a come back that smacks of ya but gays are so out there
with their promiscuity, I would emphasize something like do you sense
that the media portrays your beliefs and perspectives fairly or do you
find that only the extremists are portrayed for emotional impact and
to inflame feelings and prejudices. Most conservatives sense that it
is entirely unfair that abortion protestors who are mainly
grandmothers concerned that women and babies are being hurt in
abortions are almost never portrayed in the media which favors the
rabid, hell bent on damnation men and shooters. I know that this is
dangeroulsy close to seeming like we are judging our more flamboyant
brothers and sisters as somehow wrong, but it has a chance to open up
a conversation about the millions of gays and lesbians who want to
settle down and raise a family with full support of the resrouces of
our society and culture. These folks are never portrayed because like
most of us they are rather booring in the media sensationalistic
sense.
This also raises the possibility of talking about the gay or lesbian
couple who have been together for decades and are denied a voice in
end of life decisions for their partners, or the fact that domestic
partners are not allowed to apply for Cobra continuation of medical
benefits as a husband and wife would if one of the partners loses a
job.
I guess that engaging in this kind of dialog is an art as much as a
scriptable science. I know that phone bankers do not want a lot of
free lance arguing and emotion and so use scripts and the like. I get
that they want to curb reactoin from the public.
This is not a simple issue and I do not pretend to have and kind of
final answers. I know that I am enjoying this dialog and hope that we
can continue the discussion. I am interested in what others might have
to suggest as far as empathic guesses and responses to Jan's
questions.
On Apr 15, 4:06 pm, Ján <czech...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Craig,
>
> Thank you for offering your insightful responses. I'm working with
> Kathi to develop a communication script for a voter canvassing
> program. I've co-founded a grassroots LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual
> Transgendered) civil rights non profit in Long Beach, CA. We're
> working on talking with voters, specifically those who supported
> Proposition 8, to understand why they're adverse to marriage
> equality.
another left winged, liberal attack on a battered and important
instuition. Again, the emphasis on supporting those who make a
decision to have children and raise them with support of the state is
what is really at stake as far as I am concerned with marriage. In my
experience in High School, I have often been puzzled by the visceral
depth of anti gay speech and sometimes action on the part of teens in
inner city schools. I am imagining that is in part a domination
culture thing, but it is something that I have difficulty offering
empathy with when a young one says that usually he wants to kill the
mother fucking faggots with real intensity.
>
> Scripts I've followed for past phone banks and canvasses for marriage
> equality rarely allowed me to connect very well. They're designed to
> persuade people and have varying degrees of success. And, they don't
> address the underlying feelings and needs. In order for true social
> change to come about a visceral understanding of those needs, I've
> concluded, must come from both sides. I would like to, if possible,
> find a way to incorporate NVC into my canvassing program and use it as
> a tool for healing for all sides. Hence my set of questions.
I would enjoy the opportunity to see some of the scripts and offer any
> Scripts I've followed for past phone banks and canvasses for marriage
> equality rarely allowed me to connect very well. They're designed to
> persuade people and have varying degrees of success. And, they don't
> address the underlying feelings and needs. In order for true social
> change to come about a visceral understanding of those needs, I've
> concluded, must come from both sides. I would like to, if possible,
> find a way to incorporate NVC into my canvassing program and use it as
> a tool for healing for all sides. Hence my set of questions.
perspective that I might have. I am an ex-orthodox Catholic and would
be happy to roll play a more thoughtful advocate of traditional
positions as you develop your scripts. I would prefer to do that via
phone or Skype. You or anyone in your organization can call me at
310.791.9738 or Skype me at craig.sones.cornell and we can set an
appointment for collaboration. I am not sure how much volunteer time I
can put in, but I am willing to go a few rounds of roll play on either
side of the question. I live in Redondo Beach, so a life collaboration
or staff training is also possible. Let's put our needs on the table
and soul storm.
> I appreciate any additional thoughts and or feelings you may have.
stimulation, growth, and inclusiveness by this here.
> Best,
>
> Ján
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