Getting back on topic

[Conal Elliott]

Thank you, Angela!  Your post captures perfectly what I'm looking for in this group and the sort of thing I've been unhappy with on the group lately.  My other main desire is for conciseness, which Susan also mentioned.  With many of the longish posts recently, I just skim and archive. 

Only yesterday did I realize that if this list is not as concise and on-topic enough to catch my interest, then it is probably not filling my original purpose for starting the group.

  - Conal

On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Angela Harms <angela...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe I was too concise. :)

What I mean is perhaps whether something's on-topic isn't so much about the subjects we discuss, as about showing interest, while discussing them, in developing NVC consciousness around them?

Here's what I've noticed about this discussion:

• First, Craig said "I know it is not in the model to interject myself so early in the process of empathy... But I share your unease." And then it was all about him.
  
  
• Then, my dear Tracy tried to comfort me by explaining that the thing I was sad around wasn't real. (He and I covered that one at home.)
  
  
• And now Susan offers lists of facts that she thinks imply a moral conclusion, and I can't tell whether she's enjoying her jackal show, and working toward the place of non-judgement, or whether she thinks this is a debate.

It's true that these things would be more fun if I could be sure all the players are actually interested in and motivated by the desire to co-create a real NVC consciousness that fits with all of life. But even if I can't, it's been *really* enriching for me to work with these reactions.

Doesn't mean it's good for the list, but it might be. It's good for me! :)

Angela

[Niklas Wilkens]

Hey Conal,

I'm having an insight that I'd like to share. You wrote:
> Only yesterday did I realize that if this list is not as concise and
> on-topic enough to catch my interest, then it is probably not filling my
> original purpose for starting the group.

My guess is that this is exactly the sort of statement that maybe Marshall would make about CNVC. The organization was set up for a certain purpose and then people are asked to serve that purpose, if they want to join. If they aren't willing or somehow don't arrive at meeting that purpose, they are asked to leave. My guess is that you are in the same situation right now.

I'm bringing this up, because presently my needs for inclusion and belonging are alive in me. And these needs are met by the exchanges I have in this group. And I'm scared, because I'd like these needs to be met as we go on, but I'm worried whether I can write here to my satisfaction when I'm asked to be more concise than I'd like to be. I value conciseness and saying something to the point and at the same time I'm skeptical whether I can reach the depth that I value, if I have to shorten it in order to belong to the group.

I'd like to hear from you, whether you're considering these values of depth, belonging and inclusion as well. Just to hear that you have them in your awareness and would like to include them, would help me to relax around this.

Thanks for hearing me
Niklas
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[Conal Elliott]

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Niklas Wilkens <Vor...@gmx.de> wrote:

Hey Conal,

I'm having an insight that I'd like to share. You wrote:
> Only yesterday did I realize that if this list is not as concise and
> on-topic enough to catch my interest, then it is probably not filling my
> original purpose for starting the group.

My guess is that this is exactly the sort of statement that maybe Marshall would make about CNVC. The organization was set up for a certain purpose and then people are asked to serve that purpose, if they want to join. If they aren't willing or somehow don't arrive at meeting that purpose, they are asked to leave. My guess is that you are in the same situation right now.

I see the similarity, and I'm comfortable with it, although I'm doubtful that Marshall is personally the force behind many of CNVC's policies.  Also, I'm perfectly happy not to be blessed by CNVC.  I don't buy CNVC as a monopoly on legitimate NVC.  Nor this group as a monopoly on NVC evolution exploration.  That's why I encouraged Craig to consider alternatives that may be a more comfortable match with him.

I'm bringing this up, because presently my needs for inclusion and belonging are alive in me. And these needs are met by the exchanges I have in this group. And I'm scared, because I'd like these needs to be met as we go on, but I'm worried whether I can write here to my satisfaction when I'm asked to be more concise than I'd like to be. I value conciseness and saying something to the point and at the same time I'm skeptical whether I can reach the depth that I value, if I have to shorten it in order to belong to the group.

As with Craig, I'm asking of you to make it easier for the rest of us to get the crux of what you're saying.  I'd like one person (the writer) to invest extra time in order to save time for many people (the readers).  Lately, I'm missing out on most of what you have to say, getting lost in the words.

I'd like to hear from you, whether you're considering these values of depth, belonging and inclusion as well. Just to hear that you have them in your awareness and would like to include them, would help me to relax around this.

Depth, yes (and hence clear and to the point where possible).  Inclusion I hear as a faux (externalized) need.  Belonging, yes, though secondary.
 

Thanks for hearing me
Niklas

Thanks for the brevity that helps me and others hear you.

   - Conal

[Emma McCreary]

I have some ideas about this conciseness thing I'd like to share.

My idea is that the need around long posts is for aliveness and
connection. And "be concise" is just one strategy, with costs. ie the
costs that some people feel muzzled (i know, not a real "feeling" -
whatever! (frustration with "lets all be correct and correct each
other" syndrome))

The sheer length might be a cause of disconnection - my idea though is
that a post could be long, and, if written in a way that communicates
enough "alive" stuff, the length would not matter so much.

So, I'm wondering if it's not the length exactly, but the writing and
how much aliveness is conveyed in it. worried that brevity is not
really addressing the point

I am coming from this also from a perspective of copywriting - on the
web - where the goal is basically to make things easily readable and
scannable.

One thing you learn is to make short paragraphs.

Long posts are much easier read with short paragraphs. The white space
breaks up the content and gives some breathing room.

I also dislike "sanitization" - making everything NVC-sounding but
scrubbing out the juiciness in the process. That kills a lot of NVC
writing for me.

I want the juice! I guess that sanitization is trying to meet needs
for precision, but also maybe comes from a fear of "not doing NVC
write", which I'd like to toss out the window b/c it feels icky and
boring.

I wonder if we could come up with a set of "how to write in a
connected way, especially for on-screen reading" suggestions.

Some ideas I have:
- short paragraphs
- start out the post with a summary
- use bullet points

My idea is that many people want to share on this forum but don't have
the writing skill to make their thought keep their aliveness when
translated into words.

I feel sad for people who have something real to communicate (that
would be everyone, people are attracted to the group for a reason) but
don't have the skill to do it in a way that meets others aliveness
needs--so they don't get heard, and maybe get excluded even though
they want to "play" they just don't have the skills to participate in
a way that meets others aliveness needs.

I'd like to have a group-culture that supports people to learn to
communicate in more aliveness ways through writing, b/c that is the
medium we are using here. and an awareness that this is a big skill!

the needs up for me are inclusion. i am not sure that is a "faux
need". maybe it is a label for a set of needs. what i experience in my
body is a sadness in my chest and a thought like "I hope the people
who got moderated out don't go away feeling like they are not "good
enough" in some way". wanting to protect their needs for acceptance
and having room and support to grow.

Something like that, what do you guys think about this mishmash of
ideas?

Emma

[Angela Harms]

I feel like suddenly there's more available oxygen in the air! I feel like this: http://www.korea.net/image/multimedia/wallpaper/20050402l.jpg Thanks, Emma.

I feel sad for people who have something real to communicate (that
would be everyone, people are attracted to the group for a reason) but
don't have the skill to do it in a way that meets others aliveness
needs--so they don't get heard, and maybe get excluded even though
they want to "play" they just don't have the skills to participate in
a way that meets others aliveness needs.

I'd like to have a group-culture that supports people to learn to
communicate in more aliveness ways through writing, b/c that is the
medium we are using here. and an awareness that this is a big skill!

Me too! Sad, I mean, and wow--I'm glad you figured out how to talk about how to write posts in a way that could be easier to read.

 

the needs up for me are inclusion. i am not sure that is a "faux
need". maybe it is a label for a set of needs. what i experience in my
body is a sadness in my chest and a thought like "I hope the people
who got moderated out don't go away feeling like they are not "good
enough" in some way". wanting to protect their needs for acceptance
and having room and support to grow.

Talking about "faux needs"--especially with the people experiencing them--scares me a little. I'm afraid I might forget that behind/under any needs I might think are "faux" there are real, alive needs. Those are what matter, right?

I am wanting to support people's needs for acceptance and at the same time support other people's needs for autonomy, and it's getting kinda hard. :-)

(Which is why I created another space. Anybody who wants to hear more, send me an email.)

Angela

[Emma McCreary]

Yes! Exactly! About the faux needs and that there are real needs
underneath.

One of the most powerful teachings in NVC, to me, is that no matter
what or how someone says something, I can hear it with giraffe ears,
hear the needs. That's right in the heart of NVC consciousness for
me.

Thank you, for articulating this. I have always had a bit of a
disconnect with the "faux needs" thing. I get it intellectually, and
it's a helpful distinction for myself when I try to speak, but when I
use it as a diagnosis or criticism of someone else, I'm not "being"
NVC - and I won't connect, and there will be zero juiciness. =)

Sometimes intellectual clarity rings true, but it's not as "ahhh"
feeling as heart-clarity. i like the ahh-clarity that i get from the
idea of giraffe ears. my chest opens up and i relax. its the same
feeling i get when i learned about the spiritual teaching in buddhism
about equanimity - valuing others needs equal to our own - not more
important, not less, but equally valid. if you go in either direction,
attraction or aversion, then you are in your stuff and not present,
you can't connect, and it produces suffering.

I want to opine briefly that this is why NVC is a spiritual practice
for me. spiritual practice is about continuing to turn toward things
that we'd like to turn away from. maybe i'd like to turn away when
someone speaks in an "incorrect" way. diagnose or educate. but NVC
invites me to go deeper, and turn toward them again, and transform my
*own* ears, and remember that the whole point is to connect, not to
learn NVC, not to teach NVC, not to be right about NVC, but to connect
from the heart.

Yay! oh angela, i am enjoying talking with you!

Hopefully your other space will pick up steam. Or maybe Conal will get
so fed up with this group that he would hand it over to you and you
can un-moderate it (tongue in cheek--kinda).

=)

Emma

[Angela Harms]

Thank you, for articulating this. I have always had a bit of a
disconnect with the "faux needs" thing. I get it intellectually, and
it's a helpful distinction for myself when I try to speak, but when I
use it as a diagnosis or criticism of someone else, I'm not "being"
NVC - and I won't connect, and there will be zero juiciness. =)

I find it hard, sometimes, to remember to keep the focus inside me. And to figure out ways, when folks want my help "getting" NVC (connection / nonjudgment), to talk about it without putting shoulds out there or making people wrong.

On the other hand, I do notice that when CNVC puts stuff out, officially, that promotes a form of NVC that... I guess, scares me, I hurt inside and I look for ways to not hurt. It's part of the amazing dance of life, for me, to try to keep myself in that "NVC-is-about-me-not-them" place, and to speak to the pain. I'm excited by the potential for growth I see there. :)

(Up comes a curiousity and nervousness--I wonder if it seems ingenuine when I say I'm excited, happy, thrilled with all these difficult issues, because of the growing. But it's true. I love problems and mistakes deep down in my gut.) 

Sometimes intellectual clarity rings true, but it's not as "ahhh"
feeling as heart-clarity. i like the ahh-clarity that i get from the
idea of giraffe ears. my chest opens up and i relax.

One thing Marshall's said that I really enjoy is that when someone starts talking facts, ideas, what they 'think', he is just not interested... until he knows what is alive in them. At first that was hard for me to hear, at least until I processed the second part. Then I realized I feel that way too. I *love* intellectual work with a real passion, but it needs to be connected to heart to work for me. I can talk about math or programming in depth, if I'm connected with the beauty, the clarity, the understanding, the congruence. I can even talk about politics, if the connections are there. (That's kinda rare, for me.)

spiritual practice is about continuing to turn toward things
that we'd like to turn away from.

Oh, wow. Heh. Tears. Thanks for that.
 

maybe i'd like to turn away when
someone speaks in an "incorrect" way. diagnose or educate. but NVC
invites me to go deeper, and turn toward them again, and transform my
*own* ears, and remember that the whole point is to connect, not to
learn NVC, not to teach NVC, not to be right about NVC, but to connect
from the heart.

Yay! oh angela, i am enjoying talking with you!

Thanks for that, too. And same here. :)
 

Hopefully your other space will pick up steam. Or maybe Conal will get
so fed up with this group that he would hand it over to you and you
can un-moderate it (tongue in cheek--kinda).

I don't know how things will work out. I'm confident that solutions will become clear as we work on the problem. (Did I mention I love problems? :)

For clarity and disclosure (I also love disclosure!) I have a new group, called A Healing Space, and it's open to everyone and unmoderated. It's not a secret or anything, so if anyone here wonders if they're invited, the answer is yes!

Angela

[Craig Sones Cornell]

Hi Emma, this is Craig. I am so relieved to read your post about
clarity and writing. It is inviting and full of "do's" without
"don'ts".

> Some ideas I have:
> - short paragraphs
> - start out the post with a summary
> - use bullet points

I love these suggestiongs. Actually the middle one was expressed as a
strategy or intention of mine. But I received no response one way or
the other. But maybe that is interjecting my unlicked wounds into
this. Oh my!

> My idea is that many people want to share on this forum but don't have
> the writing skill to make their thought keep their aliveness when
> translated into words.
>

> the needs up for me are inclusion. i am not sure that is a "faux
> need". maybe it is a label for a set of needs. what i experience in my
> body is a sadness in my chest and a thought like "I hope the people
> who got moderated out don't go away feeling like they are not "good
> enough" in some way". wanting to protect their needs for acceptance
> and having room and support to grow.

Tears are beginning to flow.

>
> Something like that, what do you guys think about this mishmash of
> ideas?

I do not know about thoughts, but my hearts sings. You so very well
express what is in my heart. You did not express it as a request or
invitation, but there is such a deep sense of longing for well-being
and connection that are so deeply important to me.

[Craig Sones Cornell]

Hi Angela, This is Craig:

On Oct 5, 2:00 pm, "Angela Harms" <angela.ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I feel like suddenly there's more available oxygen in the air! I feel like
> this:http://www.korea.net/image/multimedia/wallpaper/20050402l.jpgThanks,
> Emma.

The melding of intense yellow flowers, transclucent blue/green water,
and small islands was deeply moving and evocative to me. Even though I
am not really "visual" as my stronger area of grokking, I really got
someting profound.

> Talking about "faux needs"--especially with the people experiencing
> them--scares me a little. I'm afraid I might forget that behind/under any
> needs I might think are "faux" there are real, alive needs. Those are what
> matter, right?

Right!!!!

>
> I am wanting to support people's needs for acceptance and at the same time
> support other people's needs for autonomy, and it's getting kinda hard. :-)
>
> (Which is why I created another space. Anybody who wants to hear more, send
> me an email.)

Thank you for doing that.

> Angela

[Craig Sones Cornell]

Hi Emma, This is Craig.

> I want to opine briefly that this is why NVC is a spiritual practice
> for me. spiritual practice is about continuing to turn toward things
> that we'd like to turn away from. maybe i'd like to turn away when
> someone speaks in an "incorrect" way. diagnose or educate. but NVC
> invites me to go deeper, and turn toward them again, and transform my
> *own* ears, and remember that the whole point is to connect, not to
> learn NVC, not to teach NVC, not to be right about NVC, but to connect
> from the heart.

For me, NVC is a powerful, hopeful set of tools that allow, even
encourage us to live with cracked open hearts. It is the out pouring
from wide open hearts that has the real juice for me. I do not judge
or even find it relevant whether I am in joy or sorrow so long as it
is authentic.

I am glad the space is openning up as you and Angela exchange for our
hearts (and minds) to crack open.

> Hopefully your other space will pick up steam. Or maybe Conal will get
> so fed up with this group that he would hand it over to you and you
> can un-moderate it (tongue in cheek--kinda).

I hope we can all join together, including Conal, in ways so that we
make a big pot of savory steamy connection soup.

All the best, Craig.

[Craig Sones Cornell]

Hi Angela, This is Craig:

> I find it hard, sometimes, to remember to keep the focus inside me. And to
> figure out ways, when folks want my help "getting" NVC (connection /
> nonjudgment), to talk about it without putting shoulds out there or making
> people wrong.

This is in my heart, mind, and experience the central dilema of an NVC
leader, teacher, mentor, guide. Keeping this all in perspective is a
dancing on the razor's edge.

>
> On the other hand, I do notice that when CNVC puts stuff out, officially,
> that promotes a form of NVC that... I guess, scares me, I hurt inside and I
> look for ways to not hurt.

I appreciate your desire not to hurt. I would suggest that you try on
a new suit. For me one of the most profound aspects of NVC is the
incporporation of mourning as a co-equal part of celebration. They are
a sort of yin-yang. The purpose of one is as valid and embraceable as
the other. The purpose of hurt may have an independent validity that
transcends and embraces the joy that is so central to your expression
and desire. I remember marveling at Marshall's words to the effect
that to master our NVC we need to groove on pain, that of ourselves
and others.

It's part of the amazing dance of life, for me,
> to try to keep myself in that "NVC-is-about-me-not-them" place, and to speak
> to the pain. I'm excited by the potential for growth I see there. :)

This reminds me of a song that circulates through NVC trainings. Its
not about me, its not about me, its about needs, its about needs. That
shift in focus for me invites self-fullness which transcends self-
lessness and and selfishness.

> (Up comes a curiousity and nervousness--I wonder if it seems ingenuine when
> I say I'm excited, happy, thrilled with all these difficult issues, because
> of the growing. But it's true. I love problems and mistakes deep down in my
> gut.)

It does not at all seem ingenuine. It does seem that it is only a part
of the picture. I circle back to mourning and pain being an integral
part of growth.

> Sometimes intellectual clarity rings true, but it's not as "ahhh"
>
> > feeling as heart-clarity. i like the ahh-clarity that i get from the
> > idea of giraffe ears. my chest opens up and i relax.

The heart/mind duality itself rings a few faux notes for me. When the
heart and mind make love, the page glows with such splendid
intensity.

> One thing Marshall's said that I really enjoy is that when someone starts

> talking facts, ideas, what they 'think', he is just not interested... *until
> he knows what is alive in them*. At first that was hard for me to hear, at

> least until I processed the second part. Then I realized I feel that way
> too. I *love* intellectual work with a real passion, but it needs to be
> connected to heart to work for me. I can talk about math or programming in
> depth, if I'm connected with the beauty, the clarity, the understanding, the

> *congruence*. I can even talk about politics, if the connections are there.

> (That's kinda rare, for me.)

Don't so resonate with math or programming, two areas of lack of
ressonance for me. But the idea of connection with or before thought
has such harmonic and melodic resonance with me.

> I don't know how things will work out. I'm confident that solutions will
> become clear as we work on the problem. (Did I mention I love problems? :)

Your love of problems and your tender passion to help us transcend
them makes my heart/mind sing. I want to dance, dance, dance.

All the best, Craig.