electric vehicles

[ECRI]

I was at the Green Jobs press conference this morning, ran into Curt Spalding.  He introduced me to a some guys who are trying to set up the infrastructure for electric cars in the city.  Curt talked about connecting them with the movement, I have the guy’s card at home.  If there is interest I could follow up and try to set up a meeting/informal session for all of us to find out what the others are doing and see how it fits with what else is going on.  Let me know if you are interested.  greg

 

-----------------------------------------------------

Environment Council of Rhode Island

PO Box 9061

Providence RI 02940

(401) 621-8048

http://www.environmentcouncilri.org

 

[james celenza]

--
James Celenza
RICommittee on Occupational Safety & Health
751-2015
jasce...@gmail.com

[Brad Hyson]

Jim,

 

Do you think they’d be interested in exhibiting at the Providence Festival.

I’d love to meet them & maybe invite them to our event?

 

Bradley Grove Hyson, Executive Director

The Apeiron Institute For Sustainable Living

17 Gordon Avenue, Suite 207

Providence, RI 02905

T 401-228-7930  F 401-228-7932

br...@apeiron.org  www.apeiron.org www.sustainableri.org

 

Are you a member of Sustainable RI yet? Go to apeiron.org and find out how you can help make Rhode Island the nation's first sustainable state.

 

---

[james celenza]

don't know.

my hesitation about them would be that electrical vehicles may be less air polluting but they still engineer a built environment based on private and isolated modes of transport creating the same  forces that underpin our current designs and decisions (collective)  about location of communities and design of cities etc that the petrochemically driven vehicles do.

[Chris Wilhite]

I agree with Jim’s concerns. But I actually doubt that they are less polluting when we still get the majority of our electricity from coal. Coal-fired cars produce way more pollution than gasoline-powered cars. Let’s face it folks, it’s going to be at least 10 years before we get any substantial amount of electricity from renewables. Electric cars is a way for people to always talk about green things without changing their habits. In the end though, they aren’t that green. Diesel-fired mass transit is still cleaner, ultimately, than coal-fired electric single-occupancy vehicles.

 

--wilhite

www.ri.sierraclub.org

 

[Abigail Anthony]

Chris et. al,

While normally not active on this list-serve, this thread regarding xEVs has inspired me to respond and provide some clarity.

The group that is being referred to is called Project Get Ready- Rhode Island. Project Get Ready is an initiative of the Rocky Mountain Institute to provide guidance and support to cities (and city-states) to prepare them for the introduction of electric vehicles. For more information on PGR, see www.projectgetready.org. 

The group in Rhode Island is spearheaded by Al Dahlberg at Brown University and participants include folks from National Grid, ISO-NE, Environment Northeast, CLF, Ocean State Clean Cities, Save the Bay, Brown, etc. For more information, the best contact is Al, who is cc'ed above.

In response to Chris' concerns that the emissions associated with increased electricity generation associated with charging vehicles will outweigh the reduction in emissions from fossil-fuel combustion, I'll refer you to an EPRI/NRDC report that finds that widespread use of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles could reduce GHGs and improve ambient air quality. I have attached a copy of that study to this email. Among the study's key findings are: 

• Widespread adoption of PHEVs can reduce GHG emissions from vehicles by more than 450 million metric tons annually in 2050 -- the equivalent to removing 82.5 million passenger cars from the road
• There is an abundant supply of electricity for transportation; a 60 percent U.S. market share for PHEVs would use 7 percent to 8 percent of grid-supplied electricity in 2050
• PHEVs can improve nationwide air quality and reduce petroleum consumption by 3 million to 4 million barrels per day in 2050

A PHEV emits significantly lower GHGs than a conventional vehicle of comparable size, even when factoring in emissions from the production and transmission of the electricity used to charge the vehicle. PHEVs will deliver the largest GHG reductions compared to other cars and trucks when they are charged with low-carbon electricity generated from renewable sources or biofuels. The size of the GHG savings possible from switching to PHEVs depends largely on the mix of fuels and power plants used to generate the electricity that charges the vehicle. My own analysis suggests that given our current generation mix in New England, a PHEV would emit 2/3rds fewer emissions than a conventional vehicle.

ENE has done considerable analysis on the impact of PHEVs on emissions, the grid, and overall air quality. Please feel free to get in touch with me if you have any questions or are interested to know more.

Best,

Abigail Anthony

--
Abigail Anthony, Ph.D.
Policy Analyst
Environment Northeast
203 South Main Street
Providence, RI 02903
401-474-8876
aant...@env-ne.org
www.env-ne.org



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[Chris Wilhite]

Hi all,
While I do think that cars ought to be electrified, I stand by my opinion that it
is an overrated way to go, and one that everyone will jump on thinking that
we're saving the world. Even if you replace all the "cans" and "coulds" in these
findings with "wills", then clearly, the more energy efficient model would be
mass transit and denser communities.
My insistence on making this point is only that for the past 60 years, the
automobile industry has pushed the "love affair" so hard at the expense of
buying out and destroying our electrified transit system of the mid-twentieth
century. I do believe that the real solution is to invest in proven technologies
that we already have that work, rather than rewarding the auto industry with
yet another way to justify sprawling suburbs and never-ending energy use.
-Chris

>
> From: Abigail Anthony <aant...@env-ne.org>
> Date: 2009/09/23 Wed PM 04:40:37 EDT
> To: nu...@googlegroups.com
> CC: Al Dahlberg <Albert_A...@brown.edu>
> Subject: [NuPTA] Re: electric vehicles
>

> Chris et. al,While normally not active on this list-serve, this thread

> regarding xEVs has inspired me to respond and provide some clarity.
> The group that is being referred to is called Project Get Ready- Rhode
> Island. Project Get Ready is an initiative of the Rocky Mountain Institute
> to provide guidance and support to cities (and city-states) to prepare them
> for the introduction of electric vehicles. For more information on PGR, see
> www.projectgetready.org.
>
> The group in Rhode Island is spearheaded by Al Dahlberg at Brown
University
> and participants include folks from National Grid, ISO-NE, Environment
> Northeast, CLF, Ocean State Clean Cities, Save the Bay, Brown, etc. For
more
> information, the best contact is Al, who is cc'ed above.
>
> In response to Chris' concerns that the emissions associated with increased
> electricity generation associated with charging vehicles will outweigh the
> reduction in emissions from fossil-fuel combustion, I'll refer you to an
> EPRI/NRDC report that finds that widespread use of plug-in hybrid electric
> vehicles could reduce GHGs and improve ambient air quality. I have
attached
> a copy of that study to this email. Among the study's key findings are:
>
>

> - Widespread adoption of PHEVs can reduce GHG emissions from vehicles

by
> more than 450 million metric tons annually in 2050 -- the equivalent to
> removing 82.5 million passenger cars from the road

> - There is an abundant supply of electricity for transportation; a 60

> percent U.S. market share for PHEVs would use 7 percent to 8 percent of
> grid-supplied electricity in 2050

> - PHEVs can improve nationwide air quality and reduce petroleum

> consumption by 3 million to 4 million barrels per day in 2050
>
> A PHEV emits significantly lower GHGs than a conventional vehicle of
> comparable size, even when factoring in emissions from the production
and
> transmission of the electricity used to charge the vehicle. PHEVs will
> deliver the largest GHG reductions compared to other cars and trucks when
> they are charged with low-carbon electricity generated from renewable
> sources or biofuels. The size of the GHG savings possible from switching to
> PHEVs depends largely on the mix of fuels and power plants used to
generate
> the electricity that charges the vehicle. My own analysis suggests that
> given our current generation mix in New England, a PHEV would emit
2/3rds
> fewer emissions than a conventional vehicle.
>
> ENE has done considerable analysis on the impact of PHEVs on emissions,
the
> grid, and overall air quality. Please feel free to get in touch with me if
> you have any questions or are interested to know more.
>
> Best,
>
> Abigail Anthony
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Chris Wilhite
<chris....@sierraclub.org
> > wrote:
>

> > I agree with Jim?s concerns. But I actually doubt that they are less

> > polluting when we still get the majority of our electricity from coal.
> > Coal-fired cars produce way more pollution than gasoline-powered cars.

Let?s
> > face it folks, it?s going to be at least 10 years before we get any

> > substantial amount of electricity from renewables. Electric cars is a way
> > for people to always talk about green things without changing their
habits.

> > In the end though, they aren?t that green. Diesel-fired mass transit is

> > still cleaner, ultimately, than coal-fired electric single-occupancy
> > vehicles.
> >
> >
> >
> > --wilhite
> >
> > www.ri.sierraclub.org
> >
> >

> > ------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* nu...@googlegroups.com [mailto:nu...@googlegroups.com]
*On Behalf
> > Of *james celenza
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:24 PM
> > *To:* nu...@googlegroups.com
> >
> > *Subject:* [NuPTA] Re: electric vehicles

> >
> >
> >
> > don't know.
> >
> > my hesitation about them would be that electrical vehicles may be less
air
> > polluting but they still engineer a built environment based on private and
> > isolated modes of transport creating the same forces that underpin our
> > current designs and decisions (collective) about location of
> > communities and design of cities etc that the petrochemically driven
> > vehicles do.
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Brad Hyson <br...@apeiron.org>
wrote:
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> >
> >

> > Do you think they?d be interested in exhibiting at the Providence
Festival.
> >
> > I?d love to meet them & maybe invite them to our event?

> >
> >
> >
> > Bradley Grove Hyson, Executive Director
> >
> > The Apeiron Institute For Sustainable Living
> >
> > 17 Gordon Avenue, Suite 207
> >
> > Providence, RI 02905
> >
> > T 401-228-7930 F 401-228-7932
> >
> > br...@apeiron.org www.apeiron.org www.sustainableri.org
> >
> >
> >
> > Are you a member of Sustainable RI yet? Go to apeiron.org

> > <http://www.apeiron.org/>and find out how you can help make Rhode

Island
> > the nation's first sustainable state.
> >
> >

> > ------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* nu...@googlegroups.com [mailto:nu...@googlegroups.com]
*On Behalf
> > Of *james celenza
> > *Sent:* Monday, September 21, 2009 2:00 PM
> > *To:* nu...@googlegroups.com
> > *Cc:* ECRI Political Committee
> > *Subject:* [NuPTA] Re: electric vehicles

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 12:49 PM, ECRI
<environme...@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I was at the Green Jobs press conference this morning, ran into Curt
> > Spalding. He introduced me to a some guys who are trying to set up the
> > infrastructure for electric cars in the city. Curt talked about connecting

> > them with the movement, I have the guy?s card at home. If there is

Chris Wilhite
Sierra Club
(401) 521-4734
http://rhodeisland.sierraclub.org

[tom sgouros]

Chris is not alone in this opinion. I've long thought that even if you
could wave a wand and have an emissions-free vehicle at everyone's
disposal, cars would continue to be an environmentally destructive
force, net. The roads we build, the parking lots, the drive-through
lanes, the bridges, and the energy used to move people further and
further -- even for inconsequential errands -- all combine to produce
environmental degradation, even in the absence of air pollution.
Electric cars are better than not-electric cars, but buses and trains
are still better than cars.

This doesn't begin to touch the social and fiscal consequences of
suburbs, either, which is a whole other debate, but also one in which
denser, walkable, communities supported by real transit options come out
looking quite good.

-tom

Chris Wilhite <cwil...@sc.necoxmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> While I do think that cars ought to be electrified, I stand by my opinion that it
> is an overrated way to go, and one that everyone will jump on thinking that
> we're saving the world. Even if you replace all the "cans" and "coulds" in these
> findings with "wills", then clearly, the more energy efficient model would be
> mass transit and denser communities.
> My insistence on making this point is only that for the past 60 years, the
> automobile industry has pushed the "love affair" so hard at the expense of
> buying out and destroying our electrified transit system of the mid-twentieth
> century. I do believe that the real solution is to invest in proven technologies
> that we already have that work, rather than rewarding the auto industry with
> yet another way to justify sprawling suburbs and never-ending energy use.
> -Chris

--

--------------------------------------------------------
Check out "Ten Things You Don't Know About Rhode Island"
http://whatcheer.net http://sgouros.com

[environme...@earthlink.net]

Roads are always the predecessor of deforestation. First you build a road into the jungle to connect two points, then everything in between becomes deforested. greg

-----Original Message-----
>From: tom sgouros <tom...@as220.org>
>Sent: Sep 24, 2009 9:02 AM
>To: nu...@googlegroups.com
>Cc: Al Dahlberg <Albert_A...@brown.edu>
>Subject: [NuPTA] Re: electric vehicles
>
>
>

[Jonathan Harris]

I too share Chris and Tom's opinion about the destructiveness of cars. As Tom touched upon, our community layout has been dependant on the type of transportation available. Communities were very tight knit when the horse was the primary transit source. Omni busses and street cars allowed us to move a greater distance in the same amount of time, and produced the streetcar suburbs. The auto created the communities we see today. It is not the power source that is at fault, but the reliance on a single form, and the subsequent designs to support that form.

 

I believe that we are at an opportune time to reimagine what we want as communities. Let us start with the desired community form, and then design the transit system that supports the vision.

 

Slightly off topic, but important to say.

 

Jonathan

 

--
Jonathan L. Harris
Design and Planning, LEED-AP
116 Edgehill Road
Providence, RI 02906
(401) 837-6570

[Brad Hyson]

While I hear & share your views, I also think cars, scooters, carts will
play SOME role as shuttles & bridges in our transit system of the future.
I'm particularly interested in new ownership models - individual vs. co-op,
zip.car, shared used, etc. I just think there'll be times & instances where
a car'll be utilized. Even if it's a short shuttle to the next MA transit
line on an icey cold, wet day, and it's an emergency, kids' sick, elderly
grandparent needs to visit a Dr. or some other emergency. I support a
diversified flexible system.

Bradley Grove Hyson, Executive Director
The Apeiron Institute For Sustainable Living
17 Gordon Avenue, Suite 207
Providence, RI 02905
T 401-228-7930 F 401-228-7932
br...@apeiron.org www.apeiron.org www.sustainableri.org

Are you a member of Sustainable RI yet? Go to apeiron.org and find out how

you can help make Rhode Island the nation's first sustainable state.

-----Original Message-----
From: nu...@googlegroups.com [mailto:nu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of

tom sgouros
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:03 AM
To: nu...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Al Dahlberg

Subject: [NuPTA] Re: electric vehicles