NUnit 3 GUI runner?

[Rubén Antón García]

Hi everyone,

First of all, congratulations on the release of NUnit 3's beta!
Sorry if this has been asked before, but I was unable to find much info on whether NUnit 3 will ship with a GUI runner (I'm fairly certain the 2.x one is not actually compatible, even if it appears to load the tests).
The visual studio adapter for NUnit 3 is nice, but I have a huge amount of tests, with a lot of nesting, so it's not very practical in my case.

If there are plans for a GUI runner update, is there an estimated date on it?

Many thanks!

[Charlie Poole]

We decided to separate development of a GUI for NUnit 3.0 from that of
the framework itself. There are several reasons for this but the
biggest is that we wanted to focus our efforts on the framework and
engine. It's also the case that GUIs tend to be updated at different
times and for different reasons from backend code.

You are right in thinking that the NUnit 2.x Gui would not give proper
results for 3.0 tests. That's also true for the console, version 2
adapter and any 3rd party runners. In all cases, the runner might
appear to work correctly on some tests but others could cause false
negatives, false positives or simply be silently ignored. For that
reason, NUnit 2.6.4 refuses to run tests built against NUnit 3.0 and
we advise anyone who uses both 2.x and 3.0 to upgrade to that release
in order to avoid problems. We are working with 3rd party runners to
encourage them to upgrade to 2.6.4 first and then develop code that
works with the 3.0 framework but I haven't seen any announcements yet
so I would avoid them for 3.0 for now.

I have a private gui build that was working at one point and I expect
to return to it this summer. I haven't yet decided how to release it
yet and it requires a good bit of work. As a proof of concept using
one of our pre-alpha builds of 3.0 it worked very nicely, providing
the same sort of flexible display that the VS test window gives in
addition to the standard NUnit tree.
I haven't written about it before, since I really dislike
"promiseware" but you did ask. :-)

You can expect to see some sort of preview of a new GUI during the summer.

Charlie

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "NUnit-Discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Rubén Antón García]

That's great news! thanks for your reply

[Moiceanu Alexandru]

Hi Charlie,

Do you have an update regarding the GUI Runner?

[Rob Prouse]

Moiceanu,

Charlie can update if he has made any progress on the side, but currently our plan is to get the final release of NUnit 3 out before finishing up work on the GUI runner. We are working with third party runners like TestDriven.NET, ReSharper and NCrunch in addition to our own Visual Studio runner to ensure that you have a variety of ways to run your tests. 

We know a few people still use the GUI runner, but with all the support for running tests right from Visual Studio, fewer and fewer developers are using it, so priority to get it out has been fairly low.

Rob

--

Rob Prouse

 

I welcome VSRE emails. Learn more at http://vsre.info/

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Alexandru,

I'll start by quoting my earlier reply to Ruben, since others may not
have seen it.

> I have a private gui build that was working at one point and I expect
> to return to it this summer. I haven't yet decided how to release it
> yet and it requires a good bit of work. As a proof of concept using
> one of our pre-alpha builds of 3.0 it worked very nicely, providing
> the same sort of flexible display that the VS test window gives in
> addition to the standard NUnit tree.
> I haven't written about it before, since I really dislike
> "promiseware" but you did ask. :-)
>
> You can expect to see some sort of preview of a new GUI during the summer.

Everything about the above remains true, except for "summer." :-(

The best way to track the gui progress is to track the progress of NUnit 3.0.
What "summer" really meant in the above is "after NUnit 3.0 is released."

With a larger NUnit team, we might have worked on the gui simultaneously
with the framework, engine and console runner. But as you can see, we are
running behind our original hoped-for schedule as it is, so separating the
gui was clearly a good decision.

Currently, nunit-gui is my private project. Originally, I was not sure I would
open source it, which is why the source was not published. At this point,
I do plan to publish it as another project under the NUnit organization on
GitHub. Don't expect to see it until after the NUnit 3.0 release, because I
don't want it to distract from our main effort.

There are many folks (see Rob's comment, for example) who don't think
a separate gui is needed. I'm not one of them. But for the gui to work well,
it needs to have a stable base to call upon in order to run tests. That's
the foundation and that's what we are working on right now.

The present schedule calls for the NUnit 3.0 release candidate to be out
at the end of the month. Looking at where we are, I think that may slip
by no more than a week. Expect a final release two weeks after that and
a preview of the Gui sometime in December.

These are predictions, of course. :-)

Charlie

[Sheri Steeves]

Hi, 

I just wanted to add my vote for a separate GUI test runner for NUnit 3.0.

We use it here in the QA department to be able to run our unit tests on various platforms without having to install VS, the test adapter and all the rest. This keeps our testing platforms clean.

The developers that write the tests have all that, the folder is passed to the QA team and they only need to run the GUI and load & run the tests. 

Thanks,

Sheri

[Charlie Poole]

No need to vote, there will be a gui. :-)

However, since NUnit 3.0 is a new codebase, we elected to make it work
before working on the gui, which will now be a separate "product" as
is the case for some other test frameworks.

Meanwhile, try the console runner. I think you'll find that the output
is much improved from NUnit V2 and the --where option allows you to
run tests selectively. [But note that there are a few bugs with that
option, which we will fix in 3.0.1.]

[Gabriele Gallo Stampino]

Ok good!

So the GUI it will be treated as a new separate product.

Do you have an idea when this new GUI will be available?

Thanks!

Great work with NUnit 3!

[Vivek Oza]

Hey, 

Our organization has just moved to Nunit 3.0 and we are having issues to run a single test in absence of GUI.

Can you please tell me exact command to run a single particular method (test) of an assembly from Console ?

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Gabriele,

There should be a public project with some basic functionality by the
end of the year. After that, you will be able to see the milestones on
GitHub with planned dates.

I'm being a little vague here because it depends on which one of three
different UI technologies I end up using.

Charlie

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Vivek,

You can use either the --test option or the --where option on the
command-line. See the docs for details:
https://github.com/nunit/nunit/wiki/Console-Command-Line

Charlie

[Gabriele Gallo Stampino]

Thanks!

I will keep an eye on it :-)

Cheers

Gabriele

[Michael Lund]

One of the reasons I prefer the GUI version is that it is easier to rerun failed tests. (unless there is a commandline option I don't know about).

Michael

[Charlie Poole]

I'm afraid not. Since the console program terminates after running the
tests, it would have to save info in a predictable location on disk in
order to run the last failure.

[Rob Prouse]

If you just want to rerun and debug failed tests, another good option is the NUnit 3 Visual Studio Test Adapter.

[Jim Evans]

Is there anything I can do to help out here, Charlie? Having a GUI runner would make my life much simpler, and make the transition to NUnit 3.x easier. I'm willing to take a stab at helping, but as near as I can tell, there's been no code committed to any repository yet.

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Jim,

As I said in my reply to Gabriele, there is still no public project -
or more correctly, there is a project with no code. I've been working
on it privately, using the Gui as a test bed to drive the engine
interface design. A gui will use the engine differently from what a
console runner does, so that has been very valuable.

The three technologies under consideration are Windows Forms, WPF and
Javascript+HTML. What I have is a partial Windows Forms implementation
using the MVP pattern. I haven't published it because I'm concerned
that if I do it will look like the choice of technology is already
made. However, it may be time to do so.

A summary of the key issues around the technologies:

Windows Forms -
Pro: Familiar, at least to me
Pro: Works on Linux as well as Windows
Con: It's generally considered a legacy approach

WPF -
Pro: It looks like the default choice for running on Windows
Con: Doesn't work on Linux
Con: Requires more work compared to finishing what is started using
Windows Forms

Javascript -
Pro: Completely platform independent
Con: Completely new as a desktop approach, at least for me

What would **you** like to work on?

Charlie

> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.

[Jim Evans]

I, too, am most comfortable in Windows Forms, though I've worked with WPF a little recently. I'd be inclined to prioritize cross-platform compatibility over fears of using a "legacy approach." Using JavaScript on the desktop would be a new approach for me also. All I know is that the Visual Studio adapter doesn't work for my project's structure, and using the console runner is far more cumbersome for my workflow.

It probably would've made more sense to not upgrade to 3.x yet, but users of my project have started to update to NUnit 3, which exposed a subtle bug in my code, so I think staying with 3.x is my best approach going forward.

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Jim,

Let me get my project into shareable form and get back to you.
Possibly by the weekend but, if not, next week.

Charlie

[Michael Lund]

I would be fine doing some WPF - If you choose the windows platform, I think it is the way to go.

I wouldn't know how to do JavaScript on the desktop, but I would be happy to learn.

Michael

[Michael]

I would be glad to contribute as well. Windows Forms know it well, WPF also, and MV*.

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Michael L and Michael P,

Glad to have you.

My original learned style for Windows apps is to decompose the problem
into a set of semi-independent controls. You can see that in the NUnit
Gui up through around 2.5, when I started playing with MVP. In the
current GUI, not yet posted, I've ended up with a bit of a mix, which
seems OK to me. An earlier app using a similar style is the nunit
project editor, whose source you can see on GitHub We'll eventually
want to do some work on that as well.

I'm working on an issue that's taking longer than I expected, but I'll
get back to the GUI soon.

Charlie

On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:27 PM, Michael <mwpow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would be glad to contribute as well. Windows Forms know it well, WPF also, and MV*.
>

[Charlie Poole]

This is for Jim Evans, Michael Lund and Michael Powell, who
volunteered to help with the new NUnit GUI, as well as anyone else who
feels they could contribute...

If you look at https://github.com/nunit/nunit-gui you'll see that I
have created issues for the work on the GUI. I'm making some final
changes before uploading the code. The issue at
https://github.com/nunit/nunit-gui/issues/36 shows you what it
currently looks like, although you would need to run it to see all the
options for how tests are displayed. The one shown is the display most
like NUnit V2.

I have decided to continue with Windows forms at this time. At some
later point, we might consider doing a WPF gui, but I hate to lock out
Linux right at the start.

If you still are interested in working on this, please write me
offline (nuni...@gmail.com) and give me your GitHub id.

Charlie

[Michael Powell]

On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Charlie Poole <nuni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is for Jim Evans, Michael Lund and Michael Powell, who
> volunteered to help with the new NUnit GUI, as well as anyone else who
> feels they could contribute...
>
> If you look at https://github.com/nunit/nunit-gui you'll see that I
> have created issues for the work on the GUI. I'm making some final
> changes before uploading the code. The issue at
> https://github.com/nunit/nunit-gui/issues/36 shows you what it
> currently looks like, although you would need to run it to see all the
> options for how tests are displayed. The one shown is the display most
> like NUnit V2.
>
> I have decided to continue with Windows forms at this time. At some
> later point, we might consider doing a WPF gui, but I hate to lock out
> Linux right at the start.

I could be wrong, but isn't WPF moving to Linux as well, what with
VS2015, Xamarin, Mono developments as of late? Or is that a future
thing? Probably a myth, rumor.

http://www.mono-project.com/docs/about-mono/compatibility/

I would suggest at least C# 6, though, if we can manage it. There are
enough new bits there to make it compelling; nameof operator, etc.
However, lack of proper async support is non-trivial in some use
cases.

> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "NUnit-Discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/nunit-discuss/9VbhkhxTNLI/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Michael,

Well, as the URL you give says and as has been repeated frequently on
the mono list, WPF is not a strong candidate for a mono
implementation, which would allow us to use it on Linux. The effort is
substantial and the Microsoft code, unlike some other components, is
not being released as open source. What's more, Linux already has
several native gui frameworks with C# bindings available.

The "ideal" might be two programs, one using WPF and one GTK. But two
programs are significantly more work especially when you consider that
different MVx may work best with each of them. Adding to that the fact
that I've already done a bit of work in SWF, I think I'll keep it for
this program.

We'll need to experiment with C#6. Initially, I avoided it in my code,
just out of habit. Really, we should put some thought to it. First
question: what runtime will we require for use of the GUI. Unlike, the
console runner, I don't think it has to run under .NET 2.0. Probably
4.0 or 4.5 should be the minimum target, but more discussion would
help.

Once the target is decided, the C# level to use is relatively easy. Of
course, we will have to use it in a way that doesn't depend on the
class library being any greater than our target, but that's easy as
well.

Charlie

[Charlie Poole]

Hi All,

Initial code for the gui is now available on Github at
https://github.com/nunit/nunit-gui.

If you are willing to build it, you can give it a try, bearing in mind
that it is not yet ready for even an alpha release.

At this point, filing bugs on unfinished features is basically a waste of time.

Charlie

[Jim Evans]

Thanks for this, Charlie. I'm about to leave for holiday, I'll be taking a look at it later this month.

[Happy Happy]

may I know where can I download the Nunit GUI runner ? thanks

[Charlie Poole]

https://github.com/nunit/nunit-gui

[Moiceanu Alexandru]

Hi Charlie, are there any estimates on when the GUI runner will be released?

On GitHub seems to be no progress with that!

We have very complex frameworks and NUnit Test Adapter seems to no fit our needs.

The GUI runner is the best approach for our workflow, but at this moment it can't be used for NUnit 3.0 tests.  

[Rob Prouse]

Charlie has been too busy taking up the slack with my lack of involvement over the last few months, but that should be ending soon. Still, I expect it will be awhile before a full release is ready. You can use the alphas though and help us test. You should still be using the console in your CI to run your tests.

In the meantime, can't you use the Visual Studio adapter or Resharper test runner to run and debug your tests? What do you see as the advantage of a separate GUI runner? Just curious so that we can ensure we address those needs.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "NUnit-Discuss" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to nunit-discuss+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Moiceanu Alexandru]

Charlie has been too busy taking up the slack with my lack of involvement over the last few months, but that should be ending soon. Still, I expect it will be awhile before a full release is ready. You can use the alphas though and help us test. You should still be using the console in your CI to run your tests.

In the meantime, can't you use the Visual Studio adapter or Resharper test runner to run and debug your tests? What do you see as the advantage of a separate GUI runner? Just curious so that we can ensure we address those needs.

We have lots of environments and we are running the tests directly on these environments. We can't install Visual Studio on all environments because this is also a financial issue. The console runner has very few options to choose which tests to run or not. When you have large enterprise applications, with 1000+ test suites and multiple environments, then you need proper tools to handle such workflows.

We had the same workflow also before, so in NUnit 2.0 we used the GUI runner, but after switching to 3.0 version it was really hard to change the way we run tests to console runners or test adapters.

Since it's an open source app, we can help you with testing & improvements, but we need working tools, so please make sure that for future releases you deliver complete distributions, not part of it. And have in mind that incomplete releases cost time & money to adjust the tests...

[Jeremy Dunn]

There are absolutely tools in the console runner to control which tests run and which don't. Go read up on the wiki. Also, no one twisted your arm and said you must upgrade to 3. Sorry I'm currently pretty grumpy, but you just came off pretty entitled to a free tool that others develop in their free time.

[Brad Stiles]

On Aug 25, 2016, at 10:31, Moiceanu Alexandru <moiceanu....@gmail.com> wrote:

Since it's an open source app, we can help you with testing & improvements, but we need working tools, so please make sure that for future releases you deliver complete distributions, not part of it. And have in mind that incomplete releases cost time & money to adjust the tests...

Wow.  Given that this *is* an open source app for which you paid the developers nothing, don't you think your stance here is just a wee bit demanding?

If the current framework doesn't meet your needs, don't use it until it does.

Another alternative would be to download the source and fix it yourself. 

[Rob Prouse]

Moiceanu,

I think you touched a nerve with a few people :)

NUnit is a huge project with very few volunteers that all work in their spare time, so we must prioritize features. If we waited to get the GUI done before releasing, then there wouldn't be an NUnit 3. The GUI is also available and works, we just don't include it in our standard distribution because it is still early alpha and not ready for widespread use.

If you have so many tests and environments, I would also recommend that you investigate running specific tests using the console runner. I find it strange that you would be manually running tests on all those environments using a GUI tool rather than automating your testing using a console application and scripting. It must take you forever to run all your tests.

You said that you would be willing to help out with the GUI, so please download and give it a try. Contributions will be welcome.

Rob

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "NUnit-Discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to nunit-discuss+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Michael Powell]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Brad Stiles <bradley...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 25, 2016, at 10:31, Moiceanu Alexandru <moiceanu....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Since it's an open source app, we can help you with testing &
>> improvements, but we need working tools, so please make sure that for future
>> releases you deliver complete distributions, not part of it. And have in
>> mind that incomplete releases cost time & money to adjust the tests...
>
>
> Wow. Given that this *is* an open source app for which you paid the
> developers nothing, don't you think your stance here is just a wee bit
> demanding?
>
> If the current framework doesn't meet your needs, don't use it until it
> does.

Indeed.

> Another alternative would be to download the source and fix it yourself.

This is the risk you take adopting anything in the OSS realm. Costs
aren't "free", but simply deferred. Somewhere, someone is eating your
lunch.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "NUnit-Discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/nunit-discuss/9VbhkhxTNLI/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
> nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Michael,

Of course, we've all seen the management articles written about the
risks of open source.

What all of them seem to talk about, however, is Open Source as a sort
of free bazaar from which you take stuff, without giving anything. I
think any project from which folks only take will eventually die.

As I've written separately, I'm afraid I have come to feel that the
"taking" point of view dominates in the Microsoft community.

Charlie

> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "NUnit-Discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

[Michael Powell]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Charlie Poole <nuni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> Of course, we've all seen the management articles written about the
> risks of open source.
>
> What all of them seem to talk about, however, is Open Source as a sort
> of free bazaar from which you take stuff, without giving anything. I
> think any project from which folks only take will eventually die.

Indeed.

> As I've written separately, I'm afraid I have come to feel that the
> "taking" point of view dominates in the Microsoft community.

I don't think that's a Microsoft mentality, per se, but one of
corporate business.

I've always seen it as one more relationship I need to manage and
weighing the cost/benefit of being engaged in that sort of endeavor,
at whatever degree.

[Rob Prouse]

>> As I've written separately, I'm afraid I have come to feel that the
>> "taking" point of view dominates in the Microsoft community.

>I don't think that's a Microsoft mentality, per se, but one of
>corporate business.

I also think it is more of a corporate mentality, or maybe even just a vocal minority who annoy the rest of us enough that they stick in our brains :)

At our local coder meetup we did an informal survey of which developers have contributed back to open source projects and the majority who had were actually .NET developers. I had expected the opposite.

Rob

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Michael,

Fair point. But I think it's notable that programmers, who are the
folks most likely to jump in and help us, should take on the point of
view of corporate business. No surprise that a manager should think
that way - it's his job.

Admittedly, I could be seeing a change reflecting different values in
2016 as compared to 2004, without regard to the composition of the
community. Maybe it's just time to retire!

Charlie

Charlie

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Rob,

Interesting. I would have expected the opposite too. So why do we have
that expectation?

Charlie

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Alexandru,

As far as a "complete distribution", it's a decision made by every
development team - open source or commercial - as to what should be
included in the product. We decided, with NUnit 3, to make the gui
into a separate product. There was a lot of public debate and
discussion about it, but in the end we felt that the emphasis had to
be on the underlying ability to create and run tests. Most xunit
testing frameworks do __not__ include a gui.

The fact of the matter is that we have had little interest expressed
in the gui. The 0.1 and 0.2 releases have been out for comments on the
usability of the UI since April. Virtually no comments have been
received. Given how important this is to you, I might have expected to
see your comments at some time, no?

The rest of this note is from me personally - not an expression of
opinion of the NUnit team.

When I got involved with the NUnit team back in 2004, the TDD
community was only peripherally oriented toward Windows and Microsoft.
The guys who developed NUnit were, like me, programmers who just
happened to be using Microsoft software at that point in time. We
didn't consider ourselves especially C# people or Windows people or
Microsoft people. We were TDD guys. We saw a new technology and we
wanted to use it. That meant we had to bring TDD to it.

Over the years, I've seen the community change, becoming much more
Microsoft-oriented. I hate to say it, but along with this change, the
community of users has become less participatory. We have a lot more
of contributors now, and I'm very grateful to them, but as a
proportion of the user base we seem to have substantially fewer who
actually jump in to help. I can't prove that the growing dominance of
Microsoft-oriented folks is the cause of this reduced participation,
but it sure feels like it. In general, the largest portion of our user
base does not actually seem to understand Open Source, except as a
place where you can get free software. That's sad.

It's also sad for me to see so little interest in the GUI. When I got
involved with the NUnit team back in 2004, my main aim was to improve
the then-existing gui, which I eventually took over. I designed the
new gui layout to make up for some deficiencies I see in the old one
and incorporated some features that are present in the VS TestExplorer
window. I had hoped for some enthusiasm about the design, but that
would require folks to download and try out a preview release - one we
explicitly tell them not to use for production - and take the trouble
to give us back some comments. That hasn't happened, which is what
leads me to say there seems to be little interest. A few people - such
as yourself - have expressed "interest" in the form of notes asking
"Where is it?" but only two people have actually jumped in to
participate in the work of the design.

Currently, my big focus is on cleaning up loose ends in the nunit
framework and engine - things I have started and not yet completed -
so as to turn those projects completely over to a new generation. I
had originally pictured myself moving to the gui project exclusively,
with it remaining as a sub-project under the NUnit organization. At
this point, the lack of participation has me reconsidering my
options...

1. Stick to the plan and release a 1.0 version of the gui as Open Source.
2. Drop the gui entirely - figuring that the slack will be taken up
commercially or by another Open Source project.
3. Separate the gui from NUnit, finish it and publish it as a
commercial product.

Option 3 is a new idea. I'm letting it percolate a bit before
deciding. Meanwhile, it's back to the cleanup of NUnit, particularly
the engine. Having a clean engine interface is actually pretty
important to any gui we write!

Charlie

[Charlie Poole]

Some other possible theories:

1. The proportion of users who are programmers has declined over time.
2. The proportion of users who feel they are sufficiently skilled to
work on NUnit has declined.
3. The proportion of users whose companies will let them use work time
to contribute has declined.

The first two are similar, but slightly different.

[Michael Powell]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Charlie Poole <nuni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>

> Fair point. But I think it's notable that programmers, who are the
> folks most likely to jump in and help us, should take on the point of
> view of corporate business. No surprise that a manager should think
> that way - it's his job.

On the flip side, I have also paid for so-called "commercial" support
in the past. Since then I realized I could probably have done the same
job with the OSS "freely available" stacks just the same. But at the
time I needed an "easy" on-ramp to the interstate I was traveling. As
it turns out my director at the time was a stinking liar and I ended
up resigning that position, but I learned a lot in the process that
I've taken with me. Not just in the tech stacks, mind you.

> Admittedly, I could be seeing a change reflecting different values in
> 2016 as compared to 2004, without regard to the composition of the
> community. Maybe it's just time to retire!

The winds of change are a-blowin', so to speak. A lot of people have
had enough of the current economic "climate", myself included, which
is evident in the current Presidential election cycle.

[Rob Prouse]

I think we have that expectation because that is the way it used to be with Microsoft developers because they reflected the attitudes of Microsoft at the time and the attitudes of the Enterprises they worked for. I think the attitudes started changing with the ALT.NET movement several years ago and that change has since accelerated with Microsoft's shift towards open source. When the languages and tools you use are all open source, I think your attitudes start changing.

At the user group, many of the non-.NET developers who are using open source are web developers who may not have the skills to contribute back to the languages or even many of the tools they use whereas most of our tools and libraries are written in the same language that we use. Compare that to many Python libraries which are wrappers around C/C++ code.

I also wonder if the migration of so many developers over to the Mac has changed attitudes. Apple is a very closed ecosystem even though it uses many open source tools under the covers. Maybe Apple's "take" attitude infects its developers? How is that for stirring the flames? :-D

On 25 August 2016 at 12:04, Charlie Poole <nuni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Rob,

Interesting. I would have expected the opposite too. So why do we have
that expectation?

Charlie

2016-08-25 9:03 GMT-07:00 Rob Prouse <r...@prouse.org>:
>>> As I've written separately, I'm afraid I have come to feel that the
>>> "taking" point of view dominates in the Microsoft community.
>
>>I don't think that's a Microsoft mentality, per se, but one of
>>corporate business.
>
> I also think it is more of a corporate mentality, or maybe even just a vocal
> minority who annoy the rest of us enough that they stick in our brains :)
>
> At our local coder meetup we did an informal survey of which developers have
> contributed back to open source projects and the majority who had were
> actually .NET developers. I had expected the opposite.
>
> Rob

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "NUnit-Discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> email to nunit-discuss+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

> To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "NUnit-Discuss" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to nunit-discuss+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Charlie Poole]

Well stirred!

>> > email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

>> > To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "NUnit-Discuss" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

>> email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

>> To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Rob Prouse
>
>
>
> I welcome VSRE emails. Learn more at http://vsre.info/
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "NUnit-Discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

[Michael Lund]

How far are we from being able to use the GUI with nunit 2.6.x?

I would be able to do more then this is the case.  My company is not upgrading their tests to 3.0 anytime soon...

>> > email to nunit-discuss+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

>> > To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "NUnit-Discuss" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

>> email to nunit-discuss+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

>> To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Rob Prouse
>
>
>
> I welcome VSRE emails. Learn more at http://vsre.info/
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "NUnit-Discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> email to nunit-discuss+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

> To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "NUnit-Discuss" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to nunit-discuss+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Charlie Poole]

Hi Michael,

Well, of course, you're one of those people who actually __has__
contributed and it's been great having your help!

In principle, the gui is usable with NUnit 2.6, by using the V2 driver
extension to the NUnit Engine. In practice, it may be a bit tricky
getting it set up. If you'd like to give it a try, file an issue on it
and I can coach you through it. :-)

The remaining work I want to do on the engine is actually very related
to the gui. The general idea is that the gui should install by itself,
finding any engine you already have installed. Right now, it's a
matter of manual setup.

Charlie

>> >> > email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

>> >> > To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
>> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "NUnit-Discuss" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> >> an

>> >> email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

>> >> To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Rob Prouse
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I welcome VSRE emails. Learn more at http://vsre.info/
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups
>> > "NUnit-Discuss" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> > an

>> > email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

>> > To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "NUnit-Discuss" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

>> email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

>> To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "NUnit-Discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

[Moiceanu Alexandru]

Hi Rob,

How can I contribute to the GUI Runner? 

With feedback from testing & with code changes?

Regards, 

Alex

On Thursday, August 25, 2016 at 7:14:10 PM UTC+3, Rob Prouse wrote:

I think we have that expectation because that is the way it used to be with Microsoft developers because they reflected the attitudes of Microsoft at the time and the attitudes of the Enterprises they worked for. I think the attitudes started changing with the ALT.NET movement several years ago and that change has since accelerated with Microsoft's shift towards open source. When the languages and tools you use are all open source, I think your attitudes start changing.

At the user group, many of the non-.NET developers who are using open source are web developers who may not have the skills to contribute back to the languages or even many of the tools they use whereas most of our tools and libraries are written in the same language that we use. Compare that to many Python libraries which are wrappers around C/C++ code.

I also wonder if the migration of so many developers over to the Mac has changed attitudes. Apple is a very closed ecosystem even though it uses many open source tools under the covers. Maybe Apple's "take" attitude infects its developers? How is that for stirring the flames? :-D

On 25 August 2016 at 12:04, Charlie Poole <nuni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Rob,

Interesting. I would have expected the opposite too. So why do we have
that expectation?

Charlie

2016-08-25 9:03 GMT-07:00 Rob Prouse <r...@prouse.org>:
>>> As I've written separately, I'm afraid I have come to feel that the
>>> "taking" point of view dominates in the Microsoft community.
>
>>I don't think that's a Microsoft mentality, per se, but one of
>>corporate business.
>
> I also think it is more of a corporate mentality, or maybe even just a vocal
> minority who annoy the rest of us enough that they stick in our brains :)
>
> At our local coder meetup we did an informal survey of which developers have
> contributed back to open source projects and the majority who had were
> actually .NET developers. I had expected the opposite.
>
> Rob

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "NUnit-Discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

> To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "NUnit-Discuss" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to nunit-discus...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to nunit-...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/nunit-discuss.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Rob Prouse]

We can use the most help testing and providing suggestions for improvements by entering issues in GitHub.

Download the alpha and work with it, but confirm your testing with the console runner or VS test Adapter.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to nunit-discuss+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Moiceanu Alexandru]

Great. I think this is a good starting point.