Job hunting advice?
16 views
Skip to first unread message
nsw...@gmail.com
Jul 3, 2009, 3:48:30 AM7/3/09
to NSW Later Lawyers Network
Dear NSW Later Lawyers Network Members
I've just been having another read of everyone's bios and am so
impressed by the diversity of your backgrounds and stories. I've also
been inspired and encouraged by your resilience in the face of some
pretty daunting obstacles. I am sure that if all aspiring lawyers
knew that it could take more than 70 applications to secure their
first job after graduation, that few would have the tenacity and
determination necessary to persevere.
As I prepare my applications for clerkships, I wonder what challenges
I should expect to deal with and whether or not my prior work and life
experience will be viewed as assets that set my application apart from
the pack or whether my ‘age’ will be a hindrance. How does one
prepare an application for a legal job that highlights skills and
experience gained in a different profession?
I know that I am not alone in pondering these kinds of issues, as the
Later Lawyers survey indicates that 73% of respondents would like
support with job placement/recruitment services (second only to social
events which 77% of respondents said they want). I would love to hear
what other members have to say about the whole issue of job hunting
etc and specifically would love to find out what you have to say about
applying for clerkships, resume tips, interview advice, pitfalls to
avoid, how to keep your self-esteem intact if unsuccessful etc. etc.
Also, a reminder that you need to RVSP by Mon 20 July for the first
ever NSW Later Lawyers Network get-together on Thursday 23 July at
6:30 pm (sharp) in the Gallery Bar at The Art House Hotel, 275 Pitt St
Sydney (T) 9284 1200 http://thearthousehotel.com.au
Looking forward to hearing from you,
Felicia Nevins
I've just been having another read of everyone's bios and am so
impressed by the diversity of your backgrounds and stories. I've also
been inspired and encouraged by your resilience in the face of some
pretty daunting obstacles. I am sure that if all aspiring lawyers
knew that it could take more than 70 applications to secure their
first job after graduation, that few would have the tenacity and
determination necessary to persevere.
As I prepare my applications for clerkships, I wonder what challenges
I should expect to deal with and whether or not my prior work and life
experience will be viewed as assets that set my application apart from
the pack or whether my ‘age’ will be a hindrance. How does one
prepare an application for a legal job that highlights skills and
experience gained in a different profession?
I know that I am not alone in pondering these kinds of issues, as the
Later Lawyers survey indicates that 73% of respondents would like
support with job placement/recruitment services (second only to social
events which 77% of respondents said they want). I would love to hear
what other members have to say about the whole issue of job hunting
etc and specifically would love to find out what you have to say about
applying for clerkships, resume tips, interview advice, pitfalls to
avoid, how to keep your self-esteem intact if unsuccessful etc. etc.
Also, a reminder that you need to RVSP by Mon 20 July for the first
ever NSW Later Lawyers Network get-together on Thursday 23 July at
6:30 pm (sharp) in the Gallery Bar at The Art House Hotel, 275 Pitt St
Sydney (T) 9284 1200 http://thearthousehotel.com.au
Looking forward to hearing from you,
Felicia Nevins
lucy blair
Jul 3, 2009, 3:55:21 AM7/3/09
to nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Hi Felicia,
Thanks for organising it, I will def be there for drinks.
Lucy
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 00:48:30 -0700
> Subject: Job hunting advice?
> From: nsw...@gmail.com
> To: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for organising it, I will def be there for drinks.
Lucy
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 00:48:30 -0700
> Subject: Job hunting advice?
> From: nsw...@gmail.com
> To: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Ann Adams
Jul 3, 2009, 6:49:08 AM7/3/09
to nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Hi Felicia,
Thought some hints that have been passed around may be helpful
1. Use a template for your resume, a friend in a law firm passed this
one on to me when I was doing PLT, she told me that firms would not
even consider an application that wasn't properly set out. Word has a
number of resume templates to suit different styles. It makes sense as
a lot of legal work is done on various form templates
2. A brief cover letter that summarises your application - this may be
all that they read so it has to grab attention - most jobs have 600+
applications so for it all to be read your cover letter has to grab
the reader
3. Dont list your full work history as it can give away your age too
quickly and ageism is alive and well in the legal world, keep it
relevant to the position your applying for and I've been told to only
go back 10 years max.
4. Get it in a few days before the closing date, not at the last
second, again you want it to look prepared, considered, but you dont
want to look as if you just get things in at the very last minute
5. Dont ring and ask questions unless you have something really
relevant to ask - I have a friend who kills her chances by ringing
numerous times asking silly q's and then getting the application in
right on closing hour or late, after her ph calls some places even
told her not too bother and no she hasnt learnt yet, possibly its self
sabotage
6. Often there is criteria to be met, research the job itself so you
can adapt your skill set to really meet the criteria and give examples
as close to what is required in the job as possible
7. Use any contacts within firms that you may have, if its clerkships
at the big law firms that your going after you have your work cut out
for you, if you get through to interview it is a very grueling day,
try and find someone who has been through it to get some tips, I never
tried as all the firms I spoke to at the Law Fair were very upfront
about not being interested in mature applicants and other mature age
grads I knew had got nowhere with their applications, however if you
have the marks/honours etc you have to try (I had a bare distinction
average which wasnt good enough)
8. Send out cold applications, when a job is advertised it is
inundated with applications - last year it was 500+ this year it would
be a lot more so try places you might like to work before they
advertise, a few older students I know got their first jobs this way
9. Contacts contacts contacts - even if inadvertant - one of my
referees is on my Judges old chambers floor, having her name on my
resume got me through to interview, then her personal recommendation
as to my character clinched it after the interview and I didn't know
of the connection when I applied
10.One friend got a job because of her prior work, the firm wanted her
for her contacts to bring in jobs, when not many eventuated she was
retrenched in January but then managed to pick up inhouse work with a
contact she had made while with the firm
11. Don't get disheartened, I used to think as long as I had an
application out there that I hadn't heard back from there was a chance
- hence so many applications, and yes I did get down occasionally but
I would then just start some more applications and keep refining the
applications as well, they changed dramatically as time went by and I
learned more. Applications by email are easier and don't have the same
emotional investment as physically posting one.
12. It helps to have someone else applying for jobs that you can
commiserate with, bitch to etc - I did most of my applications when I
was doing my PLT placement and 2 others there were also applying for
jobs, one was early 20's, one was 30 and I was 50, the 30yr old was
told by many firms that she was too old, she ended up getting work
with HREOC about 3mths after her placement finished- the 20's guy and
myself got offered jobs on the same day which was good just as we were
getting to the end of our placement.
Well I hope this helps and I will be interested in what the others
have to say as the more you know about the application process the
better equipped you are in making applications. I recently did one by
expression of interest - a one pager with my resume and I scored an
interview much to my surprise and then was offered the job, but had
decided during the wait btw interview and offer (nrly 3 weeks) that it
wasnt the right position for me and declined, however the experience
was very good and the boost received from the offer will last awhile,
it has shown me another area that my skills fit into nicely that I
hadnt really considered before.
Regards,
Ann
Ann Adams
acu...@optusnet.com.au
Thought some hints that have been passed around may be helpful
1. Use a template for your resume, a friend in a law firm passed this
one on to me when I was doing PLT, she told me that firms would not
even consider an application that wasn't properly set out. Word has a
number of resume templates to suit different styles. It makes sense as
a lot of legal work is done on various form templates
2. A brief cover letter that summarises your application - this may be
all that they read so it has to grab attention - most jobs have 600+
applications so for it all to be read your cover letter has to grab
the reader
3. Dont list your full work history as it can give away your age too
quickly and ageism is alive and well in the legal world, keep it
relevant to the position your applying for and I've been told to only
go back 10 years max.
4. Get it in a few days before the closing date, not at the last
second, again you want it to look prepared, considered, but you dont
want to look as if you just get things in at the very last minute
5. Dont ring and ask questions unless you have something really
relevant to ask - I have a friend who kills her chances by ringing
numerous times asking silly q's and then getting the application in
right on closing hour or late, after her ph calls some places even
told her not too bother and no she hasnt learnt yet, possibly its self
sabotage
6. Often there is criteria to be met, research the job itself so you
can adapt your skill set to really meet the criteria and give examples
as close to what is required in the job as possible
7. Use any contacts within firms that you may have, if its clerkships
at the big law firms that your going after you have your work cut out
for you, if you get through to interview it is a very grueling day,
try and find someone who has been through it to get some tips, I never
tried as all the firms I spoke to at the Law Fair were very upfront
about not being interested in mature applicants and other mature age
grads I knew had got nowhere with their applications, however if you
have the marks/honours etc you have to try (I had a bare distinction
average which wasnt good enough)
8. Send out cold applications, when a job is advertised it is
inundated with applications - last year it was 500+ this year it would
be a lot more so try places you might like to work before they
advertise, a few older students I know got their first jobs this way
9. Contacts contacts contacts - even if inadvertant - one of my
referees is on my Judges old chambers floor, having her name on my
resume got me through to interview, then her personal recommendation
as to my character clinched it after the interview and I didn't know
of the connection when I applied
10.One friend got a job because of her prior work, the firm wanted her
for her contacts to bring in jobs, when not many eventuated she was
retrenched in January but then managed to pick up inhouse work with a
contact she had made while with the firm
11. Don't get disheartened, I used to think as long as I had an
application out there that I hadn't heard back from there was a chance
- hence so many applications, and yes I did get down occasionally but
I would then just start some more applications and keep refining the
applications as well, they changed dramatically as time went by and I
learned more. Applications by email are easier and don't have the same
emotional investment as physically posting one.
12. It helps to have someone else applying for jobs that you can
commiserate with, bitch to etc - I did most of my applications when I
was doing my PLT placement and 2 others there were also applying for
jobs, one was early 20's, one was 30 and I was 50, the 30yr old was
told by many firms that she was too old, she ended up getting work
with HREOC about 3mths after her placement finished- the 20's guy and
myself got offered jobs on the same day which was good just as we were
getting to the end of our placement.
Well I hope this helps and I will be interested in what the others
have to say as the more you know about the application process the
better equipped you are in making applications. I recently did one by
expression of interest - a one pager with my resume and I scored an
interview much to my surprise and then was offered the job, but had
decided during the wait btw interview and offer (nrly 3 weeks) that it
wasnt the right position for me and declined, however the experience
was very good and the boost received from the offer will last awhile,
it has shown me another area that my skills fit into nicely that I
hadnt really considered before.
Regards,
Ann
acu...@optusnet.com.au
Anthony Pleticos
Jul 3, 2009, 9:34:22 AM7/3/09
to nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Hi there,
the email from Ann, raised a few questions, and would like a few answers.
Would like constructive comments from these issues that I raise and no
smart-allec, in-your-tongue responses, please.
Para 7. If firms are upfront about age, where are the human rights agencies
eg, ADB, HREOC kicking a stink about it? Has anybody obtained a job after
getting representations from these bastions of human rights, or are they a
waste of time and money? Another is firms looking first at student's marks
before looking at the person, yet at the same time they allege that marks
are not impoortant.I have anecdotal evidence from my sources that students
not even getting a distinction average or credit average still get into
these firms or end up as tip-staff. A few years ago, I head a conversation
about a graduate with a pass average still getting into a top tier firm
(that was about 2001). Only one person to the contrary ratified Ann's
statement about age. There are mixed messaages out there. I saw in a
publication "Lawyers 2B" in 2007 (I am sorry I don't recall the issue in
2007), that some top tiered firms took in mature-aged graduates in the 30s,
40s. One firm called Mallesons recruited a person in their fifties.
My concern is that if I accept that there is ageism, and because one (like
me) has never had the chance to "go places" (i am not Robinson Crusoe) in my
20s, that I will never go places in one's 30s, 40s, 50s? Or are matured-aged
graduates relegated to positions where their light may not shine in
policy-impotent roles, or agencies always starved of funds when really one
wants to get into in M & A, structured finance, or being connected with
advocates like "Rumpole" (OK he is a fictional character, "everyone" has
heard of Rumpole.
Another question that has bugged me but was not raised in Ann's response was
the alleged issue of large firms and burn out. The anecdotal evidence from
my sources is that these top tiered firms do not leave time for the lawyer
outside work and for a quality life. I find it ironic that these firms
recruit on "qualities" such as extra-curricular activities, and at the same
time, it is alleged that one "belongs" to the firm with little quality time
for the extra-curricular activities that represents qualities of the
graduate that was recruited to the top tier firm in the first place.
Secondly, when I spoke to the person who once recruited for a top-tier firm
and based applications on marks (my first para), I asked him the question
about those who burn out and those who survive working these firms. The
anecdotal evidence you get from connections is you burn out. But when I
asked the former recruiter why some burn out and others survive, he could
not explain that to me - could anybody explain why some survive "serve their
apprenticeship" and not burn out and then go places (whatever you want it to
mean) while others burn out?
Thank you,
I expect some reasonable and constructive statements,
Anthony Pleticos
the email from Ann, raised a few questions, and would like a few answers.
Would like constructive comments from these issues that I raise and no
smart-allec, in-your-tongue responses, please.
Para 7. If firms are upfront about age, where are the human rights agencies
eg, ADB, HREOC kicking a stink about it? Has anybody obtained a job after
getting representations from these bastions of human rights, or are they a
waste of time and money? Another is firms looking first at student's marks
before looking at the person, yet at the same time they allege that marks
are not impoortant.I have anecdotal evidence from my sources that students
not even getting a distinction average or credit average still get into
these firms or end up as tip-staff. A few years ago, I head a conversation
about a graduate with a pass average still getting into a top tier firm
(that was about 2001). Only one person to the contrary ratified Ann's
statement about age. There are mixed messaages out there. I saw in a
publication "Lawyers 2B" in 2007 (I am sorry I don't recall the issue in
2007), that some top tiered firms took in mature-aged graduates in the 30s,
40s. One firm called Mallesons recruited a person in their fifties.
My concern is that if I accept that there is ageism, and because one (like
me) has never had the chance to "go places" (i am not Robinson Crusoe) in my
20s, that I will never go places in one's 30s, 40s, 50s? Or are matured-aged
graduates relegated to positions where their light may not shine in
policy-impotent roles, or agencies always starved of funds when really one
wants to get into in M & A, structured finance, or being connected with
advocates like "Rumpole" (OK he is a fictional character, "everyone" has
heard of Rumpole.
Another question that has bugged me but was not raised in Ann's response was
the alleged issue of large firms and burn out. The anecdotal evidence from
my sources is that these top tiered firms do not leave time for the lawyer
outside work and for a quality life. I find it ironic that these firms
recruit on "qualities" such as extra-curricular activities, and at the same
time, it is alleged that one "belongs" to the firm with little quality time
for the extra-curricular activities that represents qualities of the
graduate that was recruited to the top tier firm in the first place.
Secondly, when I spoke to the person who once recruited for a top-tier firm
and based applications on marks (my first para), I asked him the question
about those who burn out and those who survive working these firms. The
anecdotal evidence you get from connections is you burn out. But when I
asked the former recruiter why some burn out and others survive, he could
not explain that to me - could anybody explain why some survive "serve their
apprenticeship" and not burn out and then go places (whatever you want it to
mean) while others burn out?
Thank you,
I expect some reasonable and constructive statements,
Anthony Pleticos
Monica Kelly
Jul 5, 2009, 1:31:33 AM7/5/09
to NSW Later Lawyers Network
Hello Felicity
In my opinion, the main point for any older applicant, regardless of profession, is to structure the application based on your skills and achievements (including publications, if applicable). I think an older applicant would be best suited to avoid a chronological style of application because it is likely to be lengthy and possibly irrelevant.
Remember that a law firm (any firm) is a commercial entity. Accordingly, highlighting business acumen, including the drafting of business plans and the relative success that arose from those plans, will definitely assist.
Otherwise, the obvious point is to link your skills and experience with the selection criteria, regardless of whether those experiences were gained through legal experience or not.
I hope this helps. By the way, I accepted the invitation for drinks but am now not able to make it
: (
I hope to meet you all at another time.
Best regards
Monica
From: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com on behalf of admin...@gmail.com
Sent: Fri 7/3/2009 5:48 PM
To: NSW Later Lawyers Network
Subject: Job hunting advice?
Maddocks
Exceptional Service Winner | 2007 BRW-St George Client Service Awards
ALB Fast 10 | Australasian Legal Business Award 2007-2008
Employer of Choice for Women | EOWA 2004 - 2009
Melbourne - Tel: (61 3) 9288 0555 Fax: (61 3) 9288 0666
Sydney - Tel: (61 2) 8223 4100 Fax: (61 2) 9221 0872
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
The information in this electronic mail is privileged and confidential, intended only for use of the individual or entity named. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, copying or use of the information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error please delete it immediately from your system and inform us by email on in...@maddocks.com.au
Monica Kelly
Jul 5, 2009, 1:34:00 AM7/5/09
to nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Hello Anthony
You sound fairly frustrated by the mixed messages out there. Can I just say that I joined a mid tier firm 2 years ago (Maddocks), completed my PLT about 16 months ago, work 4 days a week for family reasons and I have just been made Associate.
Please don't despair. If you work to your maximum I am sure you will be recognised.
I hope this helps
Monica
From: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Anthony Pleticos
Sent: Fri 7/3/2009 11:34 PM
To: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Job hunting advice?
nsw...@gmail.com
Jul 5, 2009, 2:37:17 AM7/5/09
to NSW Later Lawyers Network
Dear NSW Later Lawyers Network Members
Now that we've had our first spam message, it seems timely to
establish some ground rules.
I know that as lawyers and law students, you are all well aware of the
need to ensure that your messages do not contain any sexist, racist or
otherwise offensive comments and that you are of course going to treat
each other with courtesy and respect - but nevertheless, it is
important to establish that the standards of professional conduct
apply here as much as they do in the real world and that the whole
reason for this group is to provide support to each other and
therefore all postings should only be made with this goal in mind.
Also, I also wanted to let you know that I have changed the group
settings so that now anyone wanting to join our group is no longer
able to join directly but must submit a request to join. Messages
from new members will also be 'moderated' by me - although I want to
stress that I am not going to censor messages - only check them for
'appropriateness'. What I mean by this is that I will block messages
that are about dating opportunities for singles, sexual dysfunction,
wireless networking etc. but will not be 'checking' the content of
messages as I'm sure that as lawyers and law students you will always
argue the point rather than attack the person!
Regards,
Felicia
On Jul 5, 3:34 pm, "Monica Kelly" <Monica.Ke...@maddocks.com.au>
wrote:
> On 03/07/2009, at 5:48 PM, adminnsw...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Dear NSW Later Lawyers Network Members
> > I've just been having another read of everyone's bios and am so
> > impressed by the diversity of your backgrounds and stories. I've also
> > been inspired and encouraged by your resilience in the face of some
> > pretty daunting obstacles. I am sure that if all aspiring lawyers
> > knew that it could take more than 70 applications to secure their
> > first job after graduation, that few would have the tenacity and
> > determination necessary to persevere.
> > As I prepare my applications for clerkships, I wonder what challenges
> > I should expect to deal with and whether or not my prior work and life
> > experience will be viewed as assets that set my application apart from
> > the pack or whether my 'age' will be a hindrance. How does one
> > prepare an application for a legal job that highlights skills and
> > experience gained in a different profession?
> > I know that I am not alone in pondering these kinds of issues, as the
> > Later Lawyers survey indicates that 73% of respondents would like
> > support with job placement/recruitment services (second only to social
> > events which 77% of respondents said they want). I would love to hear
> > what other members have to say about the whole issue of job hunting
> > etc and
>
> ...
>
> > Dear NSW Later Lawyers Network Members
> > I've just been having another read of everyone's bios and am so
> > impressed by the diversity of your backgrounds and stories. I've also
> > been inspired and encouraged by your resilience in the face of some
> > pretty daunting obstacles. I am sure that if all aspiring lawyers
> > knew that it could take more than 70 applications to secure their
> > first job after graduation, that few would have the tenacity and
> > determination necessary to persevere.
> > As I prepare my applications for clerkships, I wonder what challenges
> > I should expect to deal with and whether or not my prior work and life
> > experience will be viewed as assets that set my application apart from
> > the pack or whether my 'age' will be a hindrance. How does one
> > prepare an application for a legal job that highlights skills and
> > experience gained in a different profession?
> > I know that I am not alone in pondering these kinds of issues, as the
> > Later Lawyers survey indicates that 73% of respondents would like
> > support with job placement/recruitment services (second only to social
> > events which 77% of respondents said they want). I would love to hear
> > what other members have to say about the whole issue of job hunting
> > etc and
>
>
> read more »
Dale G. Ralph
Jul 5, 2009, 6:23:37 AM7/5/09
to nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Hi Anthony and other LLN colleagues
Anthony, you raise some interesting questions and I would like to throw in
my "two bob's" in response and assistance. Can I preface my comments by
saying that prior to joining the NSW police in 2003 I had a mostly
commercial background except for several years in the army and 3 years as a
manager in Telstra which was largely commercial anyway. During my career to
date I have spent allot of time as a consultant and executive coach helping
many people to achieve what they believed was impossible. This includes
everything from resume prep, interview techniques, job hunting and changing
jobs to getting scholarships and gaining promotions. Having said this I
have never pretended to know even half of everything so what follows is just
my opinion ...
I think all the hints that were given were very relevant and on point. Can I
add to / endorse them this way:
1. Resumes - templates are fine per se but most people look at their own
resume the wrong way. Your resume is not your life! Your life and all that
it has been, is reflected in a document we call a resume or CV - and for
professionals such as us the latter term is preferred. Now, many of you
will disagree with me on the following point however, please hear me out and
consider this ... your CV must have your photo on it! Now, as you breath
and say "no way' consider this ... what is a job application? A job
'application process' is the process of an employer finding an employee who
is going to fit as many of their hiring criteria as possible. Anthony
raises the point that in some cases a person who may have a 'pass' average
but can get a job where a person who had a distinction average cannot.
The answer is very simple ... the person who gets the job is the person who
is able to build the best relationship with the employers representatives
during the process. Academics are important but not the be all end all.
Saying that also consider this ... if you decided to take up running would
you race against a 21 year old who has had nothing else to do (figuratively
speaking) but train to run the race for 3 years whilst you have been doing
everything as well as training (when you can!)? Most of us wouldn't ... so
as a person who completed their LLB whilst working full time, going to
police college then working shift work, completing the most difficult course
in the police m(prosecutions), having children, 2 major motor vehicle
accidents, having my bank accounts emptied by my ex-wife, finding a new wife
and having an awesome son who suffered choking fits and frequently stopped
breathing ... I believe I am additionally qualified to say .... forget about
your academics and the stress of pitting yourself against candidates who
have encountered nothing like what you have whilst studying at the same
time. That in itself will send you loopy and is demotivating. I don't
believe the answer for mature age applicants is to try to compete with new
graduates fresh from school and uni for a number of reasons.
I believe you need to look at what you want to achieve - the type of
organisation you want to work in. Research it. Talk to people and network
as much as possible. Forget you are a 'mature age lawyer' because many of
us have met lawyers who have been practicing law for many years and are
still far from competent for many reasons. Also remember, that law is one
occupation where the more grey hair and experience you have the better from
the clients perspective. Let's say you were in the horrible predicament of
having to get divorced - you approach a law firm - you can choose from 2
lawyers - the first is a lovely fresh faced kid 2 years pae - 23 years old -
very academically competent. The second is a middle aged lawyer 1 year PAE
but has been there done that and understands your position, perhaps having
been there themselves? Who would you choose? The answer should be obvious.
So why don't the employers seem to see it this way? Well, try not to take
this the wrong way ... but OUR "life' experience is not worth as much to an
employer as we think it is. We have fought the battles and bear the scars
but we are assuming that the interviewer will recognise this and see it as
an advantage. Often they do not - why? Because in law firms just as in
many companies and other arenas, not every interviewer is trained to
interview staff from a management / HR perspective. This in itself is a
skill and if you are to be successful you need to understand this. This
means the onus is on you to assist the prospective employer to do their job
with as much ease as possible. How?
Your CV has to be well formatted and inclusive but, most importantly it must
be 'personal'. This is why the photo is crucial. How easy is it to reject
paper and words? Very easy? How easy is it to reject a person? Much harder
... Therefore your CV must be YOU! Your photo, a synopsis of your life -
work AND personal, your qualifications, achievements and job history in
detail last. It must be friendly and well written not clinical!
Now, having prepared resumes for hundreds of candidates I want to tell you
what is usually a secret in the spirit of the LLN ... I charge between $250
and $1000 plus to prepare CV's BUT ... if you pay me and then ask me NOT to
put your photo on it I will decline your business immediately! ... the
reason is that what is a document to you must be viewed as a person by the
person who is reading it. Now ... you ask ... won't they know I'm OLDER"
with the photo on there? ... That is the idea! Let's face it ... if you
apply to an organisation that is going to decline you based on your
perceived age then how long can you hide it. Better not to waste your time
preparing for and attending those interviews. Consider this ... it saves you
time because you only end up going for interviews with organisation who are
truly interested in YOU! I have found this worked many many times and so I
ask you to think it through carefully.
Now, about experience ... what exactly is that? Some people, I'm sure you
have met them, purport to have a '20 years experience' but all they have
done is do the same 3 things over and over for 20 years! So, your
experience must be put to the prospective employer in terms they find
valuable. The other side to this is where I have helped stay at home mums
get back into the workforce after 15 years. They ALL say "what skills do I
have to offer?" Are they kidding! If they have raised 1, 2 3 or more kids
which includes taking them to school, sport, run the house, paid the bills
etc etc they have HEAPS of skills including time management, organisation,
administration, negotiation, sales, customer service etc So what is the
missing link? The first thing that needs to be done is that this has to be
positively portrayed throughout the CV. The second thing is that the
possessor of the skills needs to learn how to 'sell ' these things at
interview - also remember - at every interview there should be 2 assessments
taking place - they are assessing your suitability to work in their
organisation and YOU should be assessing their suitability to be a part of
your life. No sense taking a job that is NOT right for you ...
These are just a number of hints that I have in regard to this topic ... I
am happy to assist further if anyone has concerns ...
In regard to "ageism" ... forget about it and focus on what is really
important ... honing your CV and your interview / presentation skills so
that you are up to date and ready to participate fully in the process.
Ageism also happens to the young - when I was 25 I was a manager in Telstra
- I was told I would never get a Regional Managers job as I was 'too young"
My regional mgr was 48. So I left there and got a job with a software
company as a sales manager which took me round the world training people at
twice the salary - it's just how YOU perceive it!
If, as Anthony says, you are aware of firms who hire older candidates,
arrange a meeting, speak to their HRT, ask them for WORK EXPERIENCE - take
yourself from being paper to being a PERSON ... it is harder to say no to a
person. This also helps if you are someone who is changing disciplines
going from say contracts to M&A - get some work experience - better to be
getting experience than not!
Now, in relation to 'burn-out'... once again this is my opinion ... we need
to understand what it is. Of course, people fresh from uni, living at home
or with a few friends, with few other commitments so able to stay at work
longer hours, are attractive to employers. This does not mean they are the
most desirable because longer hours does not necessarily equate to greater
productivity however, it may appear so.
We need to be realistic in regard to one particular point - whether we
become doctors, lawyers, scientists etc, people do so (usually) with the
intention of 'making a difference'. This appears to be the biggest
conflicting factor with the 6 minute increment billing system as it leads to
disillusionment ... so let us not be disillusioned from the start ... law
firms are commercial organisations with one thing in mind (usually) ...
selling a service to make a profit and bottom line is the primary objective.
Knowing this up front is I believe a great stress reducer because it saves
reaching this realisation 6 months in. Like any job, to a large extent, we
are a 'number' and our success is based on our ability to generate revenue.
Having said this ... much to some peoples disappointment no doubt ... I have
seen a number of firms who advertise no 6 minute billing and a better work
life balance so research these companies ... find out where their partners
network ... try to meet them or get work experience with these firms to
enhance your chances of getting a job there. My experience with burn out is
generally where people who are poor at time management (or time ownership
being the model I teach) try to compensate by spending too many hours doing
what should take them many hors less. Part of it is also not having clearly
defined objectives and measures in place and failing to seek guidance at the
right times because we believe that, because we are mature aged employees we
are expected to know everything - that is not correct. One reason employers
like younger staff is not because of 'age' but because of 'pliability'. If
you come across as being 'stuck in your ways' or 'knowing everything because
you've been there done that' you will reduce your employability. However,
someone who is professional, reliable, well presented but not afraid to be
'new' and learn, certainly has allot to offer. When I was hiring staff over
the years I liked mature people because they came with families to feed,
mortgages to pay, family holidays to work toward and they wanted stability.
They got that in return for hard work during a normal working week as I
never wanted anyone in the office later than me and my rule of leaving was
6pm. Mostly, burn out is a state generated by an employee who is not
managing their case load and fails to seek help early enough to avoid the
psychological effects suffered as a result.
Lastly I just want to add ... remember the definition of SUCCESS ...
"Success is to change your approach as many times as necessary until you
achieve your objective". This is very different to changing your objective
because it appears unachievable. This is a bit like the would be
millionaire who tells his friends "Hey did you know that I'm working on my
second Million!" to which they reply in awe "REALLY" and he then says "Yeah
... I gave up on the FIRST ONE!" Stay focussed ... fix your goal ... then
keep changing your approach as needed. The blanket approach does not work
for everyone but 70 attempts is a great effort ... don't forget Colonel
Sanders of the famous KFC ... it took him 1009 tries before someone took on
his fried chicken recipe ... for free! Read the story it is inspiring.
Remember, there are many experts who are 'unemployed' because of just that
fact - they see themselves as experts - so the name of the game is to make
yourself employable - Better to be a good average lawyer with a job than a
genius on the dole.
Lastly, Anthony, be careful with recruitment agencies regardless of the
discipline ie law, accounting, sales etc ... they generally want names for
their databases and are not really interested in you as they consider the
hiring companies to be their 'client'. You, in effect, are their product
which they are trying to sell - they have little interest (usually) in
getting to know you and proactively placing you in a position. No one will
ever represent you better than you represent yourself so my advice is to
hone your presentation/ CV/ interview skills and job seeking skills and
approach firms personally or through a network. A referral from someone you
met is worth far more than the time you waste on recruitment consultants who
have never even done the job you are applying for and don't really
understand the role or you. Let me just mention that NSW Police Force is
currently specifically targeting law graduates and lawyers on a fast-path
program to employment as a prosecutor... just another option ... all my law
experience to date has been criminal in the police and I have spent hundreds
of days in court over the last 4 years which places me in a great position
from a litigation perspective.
In summary forget about 'age' ... focus on tailoring your individual life
experience to what the employers of ethical law firms and organisations are
looking for.
I hope the above has been of some help to some people. If anyone has any
specific questions feel free to ask.
I wish you all the best of luck and look forward to meeting you in the
future
Regards
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony
Pleticos
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2009 11:34 PM
To: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Job hunting advice?
Anthony, you raise some interesting questions and I would like to throw in
my "two bob's" in response and assistance. Can I preface my comments by
saying that prior to joining the NSW police in 2003 I had a mostly
commercial background except for several years in the army and 3 years as a
manager in Telstra which was largely commercial anyway. During my career to
date I have spent allot of time as a consultant and executive coach helping
many people to achieve what they believed was impossible. This includes
everything from resume prep, interview techniques, job hunting and changing
jobs to getting scholarships and gaining promotions. Having said this I
have never pretended to know even half of everything so what follows is just
my opinion ...
I think all the hints that were given were very relevant and on point. Can I
add to / endorse them this way:
1. Resumes - templates are fine per se but most people look at their own
resume the wrong way. Your resume is not your life! Your life and all that
it has been, is reflected in a document we call a resume or CV - and for
professionals such as us the latter term is preferred. Now, many of you
will disagree with me on the following point however, please hear me out and
consider this ... your CV must have your photo on it! Now, as you breath
and say "no way' consider this ... what is a job application? A job
'application process' is the process of an employer finding an employee who
is going to fit as many of their hiring criteria as possible. Anthony
raises the point that in some cases a person who may have a 'pass' average
but can get a job where a person who had a distinction average cannot.
The answer is very simple ... the person who gets the job is the person who
is able to build the best relationship with the employers representatives
during the process. Academics are important but not the be all end all.
Saying that also consider this ... if you decided to take up running would
you race against a 21 year old who has had nothing else to do (figuratively
speaking) but train to run the race for 3 years whilst you have been doing
everything as well as training (when you can!)? Most of us wouldn't ... so
as a person who completed their LLB whilst working full time, going to
police college then working shift work, completing the most difficult course
in the police m(prosecutions), having children, 2 major motor vehicle
accidents, having my bank accounts emptied by my ex-wife, finding a new wife
and having an awesome son who suffered choking fits and frequently stopped
breathing ... I believe I am additionally qualified to say .... forget about
your academics and the stress of pitting yourself against candidates who
have encountered nothing like what you have whilst studying at the same
time. That in itself will send you loopy and is demotivating. I don't
believe the answer for mature age applicants is to try to compete with new
graduates fresh from school and uni for a number of reasons.
I believe you need to look at what you want to achieve - the type of
organisation you want to work in. Research it. Talk to people and network
as much as possible. Forget you are a 'mature age lawyer' because many of
us have met lawyers who have been practicing law for many years and are
still far from competent for many reasons. Also remember, that law is one
occupation where the more grey hair and experience you have the better from
the clients perspective. Let's say you were in the horrible predicament of
having to get divorced - you approach a law firm - you can choose from 2
lawyers - the first is a lovely fresh faced kid 2 years pae - 23 years old -
very academically competent. The second is a middle aged lawyer 1 year PAE
but has been there done that and understands your position, perhaps having
been there themselves? Who would you choose? The answer should be obvious.
So why don't the employers seem to see it this way? Well, try not to take
this the wrong way ... but OUR "life' experience is not worth as much to an
employer as we think it is. We have fought the battles and bear the scars
but we are assuming that the interviewer will recognise this and see it as
an advantage. Often they do not - why? Because in law firms just as in
many companies and other arenas, not every interviewer is trained to
interview staff from a management / HR perspective. This in itself is a
skill and if you are to be successful you need to understand this. This
means the onus is on you to assist the prospective employer to do their job
with as much ease as possible. How?
Your CV has to be well formatted and inclusive but, most importantly it must
be 'personal'. This is why the photo is crucial. How easy is it to reject
paper and words? Very easy? How easy is it to reject a person? Much harder
... Therefore your CV must be YOU! Your photo, a synopsis of your life -
work AND personal, your qualifications, achievements and job history in
detail last. It must be friendly and well written not clinical!
Now, having prepared resumes for hundreds of candidates I want to tell you
what is usually a secret in the spirit of the LLN ... I charge between $250
and $1000 plus to prepare CV's BUT ... if you pay me and then ask me NOT to
put your photo on it I will decline your business immediately! ... the
reason is that what is a document to you must be viewed as a person by the
person who is reading it. Now ... you ask ... won't they know I'm OLDER"
with the photo on there? ... That is the idea! Let's face it ... if you
apply to an organisation that is going to decline you based on your
perceived age then how long can you hide it. Better not to waste your time
preparing for and attending those interviews. Consider this ... it saves you
time because you only end up going for interviews with organisation who are
truly interested in YOU! I have found this worked many many times and so I
ask you to think it through carefully.
Now, about experience ... what exactly is that? Some people, I'm sure you
have met them, purport to have a '20 years experience' but all they have
done is do the same 3 things over and over for 20 years! So, your
experience must be put to the prospective employer in terms they find
valuable. The other side to this is where I have helped stay at home mums
get back into the workforce after 15 years. They ALL say "what skills do I
have to offer?" Are they kidding! If they have raised 1, 2 3 or more kids
which includes taking them to school, sport, run the house, paid the bills
etc etc they have HEAPS of skills including time management, organisation,
administration, negotiation, sales, customer service etc So what is the
missing link? The first thing that needs to be done is that this has to be
positively portrayed throughout the CV. The second thing is that the
possessor of the skills needs to learn how to 'sell ' these things at
interview - also remember - at every interview there should be 2 assessments
taking place - they are assessing your suitability to work in their
organisation and YOU should be assessing their suitability to be a part of
your life. No sense taking a job that is NOT right for you ...
These are just a number of hints that I have in regard to this topic ... I
am happy to assist further if anyone has concerns ...
In regard to "ageism" ... forget about it and focus on what is really
important ... honing your CV and your interview / presentation skills so
that you are up to date and ready to participate fully in the process.
Ageism also happens to the young - when I was 25 I was a manager in Telstra
- I was told I would never get a Regional Managers job as I was 'too young"
My regional mgr was 48. So I left there and got a job with a software
company as a sales manager which took me round the world training people at
twice the salary - it's just how YOU perceive it!
If, as Anthony says, you are aware of firms who hire older candidates,
arrange a meeting, speak to their HRT, ask them for WORK EXPERIENCE - take
yourself from being paper to being a PERSON ... it is harder to say no to a
person. This also helps if you are someone who is changing disciplines
going from say contracts to M&A - get some work experience - better to be
getting experience than not!
Now, in relation to 'burn-out'... once again this is my opinion ... we need
to understand what it is. Of course, people fresh from uni, living at home
or with a few friends, with few other commitments so able to stay at work
longer hours, are attractive to employers. This does not mean they are the
most desirable because longer hours does not necessarily equate to greater
productivity however, it may appear so.
We need to be realistic in regard to one particular point - whether we
become doctors, lawyers, scientists etc, people do so (usually) with the
intention of 'making a difference'. This appears to be the biggest
conflicting factor with the 6 minute increment billing system as it leads to
disillusionment ... so let us not be disillusioned from the start ... law
firms are commercial organisations with one thing in mind (usually) ...
selling a service to make a profit and bottom line is the primary objective.
Knowing this up front is I believe a great stress reducer because it saves
reaching this realisation 6 months in. Like any job, to a large extent, we
are a 'number' and our success is based on our ability to generate revenue.
Having said this ... much to some peoples disappointment no doubt ... I have
seen a number of firms who advertise no 6 minute billing and a better work
life balance so research these companies ... find out where their partners
network ... try to meet them or get work experience with these firms to
enhance your chances of getting a job there. My experience with burn out is
generally where people who are poor at time management (or time ownership
being the model I teach) try to compensate by spending too many hours doing
what should take them many hors less. Part of it is also not having clearly
defined objectives and measures in place and failing to seek guidance at the
right times because we believe that, because we are mature aged employees we
are expected to know everything - that is not correct. One reason employers
like younger staff is not because of 'age' but because of 'pliability'. If
you come across as being 'stuck in your ways' or 'knowing everything because
you've been there done that' you will reduce your employability. However,
someone who is professional, reliable, well presented but not afraid to be
'new' and learn, certainly has allot to offer. When I was hiring staff over
the years I liked mature people because they came with families to feed,
mortgages to pay, family holidays to work toward and they wanted stability.
They got that in return for hard work during a normal working week as I
never wanted anyone in the office later than me and my rule of leaving was
6pm. Mostly, burn out is a state generated by an employee who is not
managing their case load and fails to seek help early enough to avoid the
psychological effects suffered as a result.
Lastly I just want to add ... remember the definition of SUCCESS ...
"Success is to change your approach as many times as necessary until you
achieve your objective". This is very different to changing your objective
because it appears unachievable. This is a bit like the would be
millionaire who tells his friends "Hey did you know that I'm working on my
second Million!" to which they reply in awe "REALLY" and he then says "Yeah
... I gave up on the FIRST ONE!" Stay focussed ... fix your goal ... then
keep changing your approach as needed. The blanket approach does not work
for everyone but 70 attempts is a great effort ... don't forget Colonel
Sanders of the famous KFC ... it took him 1009 tries before someone took on
his fried chicken recipe ... for free! Read the story it is inspiring.
Remember, there are many experts who are 'unemployed' because of just that
fact - they see themselves as experts - so the name of the game is to make
yourself employable - Better to be a good average lawyer with a job than a
genius on the dole.
Lastly, Anthony, be careful with recruitment agencies regardless of the
discipline ie law, accounting, sales etc ... they generally want names for
their databases and are not really interested in you as they consider the
hiring companies to be their 'client'. You, in effect, are their product
which they are trying to sell - they have little interest (usually) in
getting to know you and proactively placing you in a position. No one will
ever represent you better than you represent yourself so my advice is to
hone your presentation/ CV/ interview skills and job seeking skills and
approach firms personally or through a network. A referral from someone you
met is worth far more than the time you waste on recruitment consultants who
have never even done the job you are applying for and don't really
understand the role or you. Let me just mention that NSW Police Force is
currently specifically targeting law graduates and lawyers on a fast-path
program to employment as a prosecutor... just another option ... all my law
experience to date has been criminal in the police and I have spent hundreds
of days in court over the last 4 years which places me in a great position
from a litigation perspective.
In summary forget about 'age' ... focus on tailoring your individual life
experience to what the employers of ethical law firms and organisations are
looking for.
I hope the above has been of some help to some people. If anyone has any
specific questions feel free to ask.
I wish you all the best of luck and look forward to meeting you in the
future
Regards
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony
Pleticos
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2009 11:34 PM
To: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Job hunting advice?
Lise Maddocks
Jul 5, 2009, 9:38:14 AM7/5/09
to nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com, law...@virginbroadband.com.au
Felicity, Dale et al.
Can I just say that, as comments go, Dale, this is a work of art. Of course, I totally disagree with the photo on the CV, but let us disagree on that point. Besides, if Felicity is dealing with the clerkship application process, the infamous CVMail, pictures are not accepted, or at least the attachment size was deliberately miniscule in 2005/06 when I applied that a picture would not have been accepted through its electronic lodgement.
In regards to the clerkship application process, my advice is to only apply where you would actually want to work because of the time a CVMail application actually takes to complete. Each application needs to be specifically targeted to each firm/government agency to do the job well, and that takes considerable time. Fortunately, I already knew what areas of law I was interested in, and so I only applied to firms where those areas of law were a core part of their business. My prior work and life experience were assets, but only as far as I could demonstrate their relevance to my clerkship application. Skills like project management, problem solving, people skills, the ability to work independently and in a team, learn quickly and master unfamiliar concepts, and adapt them to a given situation - are easily transferrable to law.
Like Dale, if anyone has any specific questions, feel free to ask.
Regards
Lise
>>> "Dale G. Ralph" <law...@virginbroadband.com.au> 07/05/09 8:23 PM >>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain confidential/privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender.
Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of the Department.
You should scan any attached files for viruses .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can I just say that, as comments go, Dale, this is a work of art. Of course, I totally disagree with the photo on the CV, but let us disagree on that point. Besides, if Felicity is dealing with the clerkship application process, the infamous CVMail, pictures are not accepted, or at least the attachment size was deliberately miniscule in 2005/06 when I applied that a picture would not have been accepted through its electronic lodgement.
In regards to the clerkship application process, my advice is to only apply where you would actually want to work because of the time a CVMail application actually takes to complete. Each application needs to be specifically targeted to each firm/government agency to do the job well, and that takes considerable time. Fortunately, I already knew what areas of law I was interested in, and so I only applied to firms where those areas of law were a core part of their business. My prior work and life experience were assets, but only as far as I could demonstrate their relevance to my clerkship application. Skills like project management, problem solving, people skills, the ability to work independently and in a team, learn quickly and master unfamiliar concepts, and adapt them to a given situation - are easily transferrable to law.
Like Dale, if anyone has any specific questions, feel free to ask.
Regards
Lise
>>> "Dale G. Ralph" <law...@virginbroadband.com.au> 07/05/09 8:23 PM >>>
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain confidential/privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender.
Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of the Department.
You should scan any attached files for viruses .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eric raymond
Jul 11, 2009, 8:10:56 PM7/11/09
to nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Hi, Felicia,
sure, I'll be there on Thursday 23rd. Looking forward to it.
It's been interesting to read the reflections on job seeking. I've been receiving mixed messages on the issue of age. The literature on clerkships is full of pictures of pretty young things, which of course excludes many of us. On the other hand, my boss, who was an HR manager for Deloittes for 5 years, told me that a main issue for him was whether a prospective employee would look credible to a client. From his angle, a few distinguished grey hairs are definitely an asset. Moreover, at the legal careers fair, when I directly asked some law firm partners whether being 41 would be a liability, they recoiled, saying it wasn't an issue at all. The messages are clearly mixed, however, and I'm interested to see how my applications will fare. I'm not banking on receiving any offers, despite having reasonable marks, and am doing what I can to open up alternative entry paths to legal practice,
cheers,
Eric
From: lucy...@hotmail.com
sure, I'll be there on Thursday 23rd. Looking forward to it.
It's been interesting to read the reflections on job seeking. I've been receiving mixed messages on the issue of age. The literature on clerkships is full of pictures of pretty young things, which of course excludes many of us. On the other hand, my boss, who was an HR manager for Deloittes for 5 years, told me that a main issue for him was whether a prospective employee would look credible to a client. From his angle, a few distinguished grey hairs are definitely an asset. Moreover, at the legal careers fair, when I directly asked some law firm partners whether being 41 would be a liability, they recoiled, saying it wasn't an issue at all. The messages are clearly mixed, however, and I'm interested to see how my applications will fare. I'm not banking on receiving any offers, despite having reasonable marks, and am doing what I can to open up alternative entry paths to legal practice,
cheers,
Eric
From: lucy...@hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 07:55:21 +0000
> </html
Robyne Cottee
Jul 11, 2009, 8:58:38 PM7/11/09
to nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
I think different firms have different agenda and some may be more open to older graduates. Some individuals within the firm may have varying views. There will be mixed messages.
My best advice for getting a job is; use your contacts! Someone you know (even indirectly) is so much more likely to give you a job than someone you don’t. You can keep putting in all those applications but make sure you allocate time to get out and talk to people, do they know of anyone who might be looking for someone soon? Any areas that may be opening up. Join groups keep up with your old friends etc. It’s a more fun way of getting a job anyway.
</html
Felicia Nevins
Jul 11, 2009, 8:27:56 PM7/11/09
to nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Hi Eric
Looking forward to catching up with you - I agree that we're getting very mixed messages about the age thing. I must say I have a few misgivings about the advice re sticking a photo on the application form b/c it might be ok for a man to have a few distinguished grey hairs, (hence why they get called 'silver foxes') whereas grey haired old women are simply called 'hags'. Still, I suppose it might be sensible to get the discrimination over with early - ie. if they're not going to hire you b/c of your looks then better to find out before going to the trouble of attending an interview (assuming you can get one).
No-one is ever going to be overt about telling someone they're not going to be hired b/c they're too old, fat, ugly, female etc so therefore all we can do is keep on trying.
Felicia
ps - I may no longer be as pretty as I once was but age has given me wisdom!
From: eric...@hotmail.com
From: eric...@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:10:56 +0800
</html
조경난
Jul 18, 2009, 7:12:05 PM7/18/09
to nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 10:58:38 +1000
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages