Former Freehills Lawyer claims age discrimination
nsw...@gmail.com
Just wanted to touch base with you all now that the academic year has
begun and to share with you my thoughts with you about how it feels to
be back at Uni even though it's only day 3...basically, am filled with
dread at the thought of what's ahead of me but feeling really good
about the fact that am on the final stretch.
Am also wondering whether its my latent paranoia or if I'm correct in
thinking that the body language of some lecturers is
an indication that they are less than thrilled at having an older
person/s in their class and why it is that some of them say things
like "back when I was just a few years older than all of you" or "you
are all too young to remember, but..." even though there's a couple of
middle aged people sitting right in front of them (as mature aged
students are inclined to do despite the risk of perpetuating the
stereotype).
I must also tell you that I am still working on the speaker's program
- is a very slow and painful process but is something that I still
really want to make happen, so will let you know as and when plans
progress.
I also wanted to bring the attached news article to your attention and
would love to hear your response - do stories like this make you feel
negatively about your career prospects? I'd love to hear what you
have to say...
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lawyer-says-firms-harassment-made-her-ill-20100302-pgfj.html
Best regards and good luck for 2010,
Felicia
PS - the law library at Sydney Uni is called the Freehills Law
Library!
Monica Kelly
I spoke to my Partner who thinks it is a good idea for our firm to host any events conducted by the Later Lawyers. I will also ask around for contacts who would be suitable guest speakers.
Best regards
Monica
________________________________
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lawyer-says-firms-harassment-made-her-ill-20100302-pgfj.html
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Geoff Simpson
Hi Felicia and Monica.
Nice to hear from you and count me in for any LLN events this year.
I’ve not had anything but positive feedback from my lecturers to date – although they’re an idiosyncratic lot and I guess I haven’t met all that many yet. The age issue certainly hasn’t been a problem for me so far – apart from the fact that too many years of red wine consumption has done something to the memory!!
Look forward to catching up with everyone at some stage through the year.
Regards,
Geoff Simpson
Managing Director
Westray Engineering Westray Engineering
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Caringbah NSW 2229 Taren Point NSW 2229
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Troy Rollo
On Wednesday 03 March 2010 05:34:12 admin...@gmail.com wrote:
> Am also wondering whether its my latent paranoia or if I'm correct in
> thinking that the body language of some lecturers is
> an indication that they are less than thrilled at having an older
> person/s in their class
The examples you give seem more like they are talking to the bulk of their audience rather than ignoring the minority - if they had to qualify the comments every time it would be somewhat unwieldy.
I never found any discrimination against the older students. Of course my LLB was at a university with a significant graduate LLB cohort and some of the lecturers actually prefered the older students because they were more prepared to participate in class.
> middle aged people sitting right in front of them (as mature aged
> students are inclined to do despite the risk of perpetuating the
> stereotype).
I sit at the back (yes, present tense - I just started an LLM) so that when the time comes to respond to lecturer questions I can see if somebody else is going to so that I'm not completely monopolising the discussion.
> I also wanted to bring the attached news article to your attention and
> would love to hear your response - do stories like this make you feel
> negatively about your career prospects? I'd love to hear what you
> have to say...
>
> http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lawyer-says-firms-harassment-made-her-ill
>-20100302-pgfj.html
I am somewhat sceptical of claims such as these and would look to some of the possible differences. For example, younger lawyers are more likely to work additional time without recording it, which may lead to a false impression that they are getting through the work quickly and hence capable of doing more. They may also be getting more work simply because they are prepared to work longer hours (not having a family to go home to, and having different sleep patterns).
The article even states that the firm took her on as a 50 year old 1st year lawyer, and converted her from a 1 year contract to permanent within the first 6 months. These actions are not consistent with the age discrimination she alleges.
The problems set out in the article are hardly conclusive, not to mention in inadmissible form. While the Evidence Act does not apply to newspaper articles, it remains unsafe to draw any conclusion here that there has been discrimination (an allegation to which Briginshaw applies).
Monica Kelly
Maddocks | Celebrating 125 Years in 2010
Exceptional Service Winner | 2007 BRW-St George Client Service Awards
ALB Fast 10 | Australasian Legal Business Award 2007-2008
Employer of Choice for Women | EOWA 2004 - 2009
Fair & Flexible Employer | Victorian State Government 2009
Melbourne - Tel: (61 3) 9288 0555 Fax: (61 3) 9288 0666
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Lyn Francis
Hi all I teach both law and nursing at Newcastle Uni and I have a mix of both young and older students in both subjects and enjoy both. I did feel that some of the law lecturers were not that fussed with mature aged students when I completed my law quals about 5 years ago but I think perhaps now I am on the other side that some of them might have felt a little bit intimidated possibly? Cheers Lyn
peter hutchison
I have never had any problems at Sydney Law School...the lecturers have all been very supportive...the thing that is more difficult is getting a good position after graduation as a mature graduate... :)
Kind regards
Peter
From: Monica...@maddocks.com.au
To: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com; nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
With all the latest places, searching has never been easier. Looking for a new home?
Robyne
Hello,
I have experienced discrimination because of my age and my family responsibilities. I can relate to this woman’s situation.
Robyne Cottee
Lyndal Haire
An interesting claim the Freehills one, I cant say I have had any sort of age discrimination at uni, I think most of the lecturers are glad to see someone over 25. I suppose time will tell when we all get out into private practices, if that is where we end up.
Looking forward to the speakers program when it gets organised.
All the best and good luck with the motivation for this semester's study.
regards
Lyndal haire
--- On Wed, 3/3/10, Lyn Francis <jl.fr...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> From: Lyn Francis <jl.fr...@bigpond.com>
> Subject: RE: Former Freehills Lawyer claims age discrimination
> To: nsw-later-la...@googlegroups.com
> Received: Wednesday, 3 March, 2010, 1:22 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Former Freehills Lawyer claims age
> discrimination
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> Hi
> Maddocks |
> Celebrating 125 Years in 2010
>
>
>
>
>
> Exceptional Service Winner | 2007 BRW-St George Client
> Service
> Awards
>
> ALB Fast 10 | Australasian Legal Business Award
> 2007-2008
>
> Employer of Choice for Women | EOWA 2004 - 2009
>
> Fair & Flexible Employer | Victorian State Government
> 2009
>
>
>
> Melbourne - Tel: (61 3) 9288 0555 Fax: (61 3) 9288 0666
>
> Sydney - Tel: (61 2) 8223 4100 Fax: (61 2) 9221 0872
>
>
>
> Please
> consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The
> information in this electronic mail is privileged and
> confidential, intended
> only for use of the individual or entity named. If you are
> not the intended
> recipient, any dissemination, copying or use of the
> information is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error
> please delete it
> immediately from your system and inform us by email on
> in...@maddocks.com.au
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>
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>
>
Susan Fraser
a lawyer on the telephone counselling service provided by Lawyers Assistance
Program (LAP). I was told that people my age should not expect to get
employment with large law firms as they prefer 23 year olds who can be
moulded, to for example, older women with baggage, such as having been a
school teacher used to having authority. I was also advised that I should
try to get work in the public service and not to expect to find a job with
high salary and that unis should tell mature age students that their job
prospects are limited when they graduate. Not exactly encouraging
counselling for a stressed later lawyer.
Regards,
Susan Fraser
Solicitor
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Troy Rollo
firm. More mature workers will not put up with the outright exploitation of
junior solicitors that occurs in large firms, and the partners at large
firms know this.
It is also true that you should not expect an executive salary when you are
a junior solicitor.
As for limited, define "limited". It is true that mature age students do not
have the same range of prospects as those straight out of school, so in that
sense it is true that prospects are more limited. However it is also likely
that their range of prospect in their prior career is "limited" in the sense
that they are generally looking for more senior roles that are rarer, and
will not be considered for junior roles for which they are overqualified.
However you can find work as a solicitor. Just treat it as an old fashioned
job search - identify smaller firms that are in the practice area you are
targeting and cold call them. If you do that a hundred times you will be
very unlucky not to get somewhere. Most likely you will find something after
10 to 20 calls. There are plenty of firms that value the experience that
mature age students can bring, but they are mostly smaller firms. In fact
some smaller will not take on a graduate without any experience, but will
take on the mature age graduate who has experience that is relevant to the
clients the firm deals with.
This is especially so right now - business is picking up across the legal
sector, so there will be an ample supply of small firms with increasing
workloads that will appreciate somebody who can drop in with minimal
training and without requiring advertising the position and all that
entails.
Regards,
Troy Rollo
Solicitor
Parry Carroll
Commercial Lawyers
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