Simul-Climbing;

[warrierbalram]

--- In nanga...@yahoogroups.com, "BENJAMIN DESOUZA"
<benji_india@h...> wrote:
Given below is the text I copied from the link on Simul-Climbing. One
think
I noticed is there is no detailed explanation of the procedure for such
climbing technique. To me it just seems like a story being told or
someone
expressing a thought.
Because even if one of the climbers takes a toss there could be a
calamity
with both climbers getting injured.
Benji

Moving Together
This is an essential skill that improves greatly with experience, so any
practice on easy climbs in the UK is time well spent. Your ability and
confidence will dictate the standard of ground you are prepared to move
together on and the nature of the terrain will dictate the length of rope
between each climber. Key factors are:

Knowing when it's appropriate to move together, as opposed to pitched
climbing.

Being able to change techniques quickly and without tangles etc.

Using the rope effectively to allow safe fluid movement. Remember that
its
all about compromise - you can never be 100% safe, but the idea is
that you
should be safer than when soloing and faster than when pitching.

The ultimate moving together skill, `simul-climbing' involves moving with
most of the rope out on technical ground that would normally be pitched.
Prussic devices such as Tiblocs are placed on runners above crux
sections to
hold the second should they fall - and prevent the leader being yanked
off!
Other runners are placed as sparingly as you dare to conserve the rack
and
increase the distance you can travel before regrouping. This technique
requires lots of practice to perfect, and careful thought in using the
Tiblocs to prevent rope damage. Limitations are: the size of your
rack, rope
drag and you ability to climb confidently without a belay! This is a
great
thing to practice on ice couloirs with the occasional bulge, as there
are no
rope drag issues. Simul-climbing has resulted in some awesome speed
climbing
achievements well documented in the press and is a great tool to have in
your alpine skills box.


From: "warrierbalram" <warrierbalram@y...>
Reply-To: nanga...@yahoogroups.com
To: nanga...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [nangaparbat] Re: Movie Time- Vertical Limit
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:40:02 -0000



Hi Benji/Ritz....

When do u guys plan to start shooting..... I mean now that the script
for the Ultimate Climbing Movie is already in place.

Name: Kahani Climbing Ki...?? or say..Saans Bhi Kabhi Climber Thi...??
Director : Ritz
Stunt Co-ordinator- Benji.
Special Effects : Ramu/Jay...
Clothes: E&A Design Studio.

Villan : The GOONS....

All that remains is finding the male & female leads..... Do let us
know, when the auditions/screen tests would start.

Talking of going to Teil Baila for RCTC... the Pillar @ Manori was too
much to handle for most of the participants. Moral..we might have to
lower our expectations ..which seem to climb up @ a disproportionately
high rate..as compared to the ground reality.

Pertaining to the issue of multiple people climbing.... Hey!! there is
an Alpine technique called Simul-Climbing; where in the climber &
belayer both are on the move. Definitely worth a try on the easy
slopes of TB or 120 crack after proper analysis.

Check the foll links...

http://www.alpine-guides.com/Alpine%20Efficiency%20Article.htm
http://www.climbing.com/techtips/aid/ttbw217/
http://www.terragalleria.com/mountain/info/yosemite/zodiac-tuan.html
http://www.geocities.com/cmcpsmith/climb/tac/tac3.html

The last day of RCTC is on Sunday 30th Jan. The first lot of E&A
T-shirts should get released then.

Adios....

_________________________________________________________________
Manage information better. Optimise your tasks.
http://www.microsoft.com/india/office/experience/ Experience MS Office
System.
--- End forwarded message ---

[warrierbalram]

--- In nanga...@yahoogroups.com, "BENJAMIN DESOUZA"
<benji_india@h...> wrote:

Hey Balram
On going thru your other links, I see that there is a wellknown act
called
"Simul-Climbing" although I am still trying to visualise the actual act.
Firstly I feel it can only be done on routes where both climbers can see
each other and routes that both climbers have not only done earlier,
but are
also very familiar with, this way they will know the kind of holds and
the
crux areas. Also switching between firstman(lead) and second man will get
terribly delayed as the leader will be continue to lead for an extended
period of time, also there will have to be an additional free line
between
the lead and second for supplying equipment that the 2nd has removed
along
the route, as very soon the lead will running out of equipment.

As of now I really dont see myself doing this kind of climbing which
may be
u next gen climbers may do to speed up routes.
Benji

[warrierbalram]

--- In nanga...@yahoogroups.com, chidambaram vijaykumar
<chidambaramvk@y...> wrote:
It is nottrue Benji. If you read the speed ascents
made on Yosemite and half dome; these guys simul-climb
even on routes where they can't see one another.

Only in the diciest of pitches do they actually belay
one another.

In fact the speeds have been reduced drastically- from
16-24 hrs to about 3-4 hours or less that that due to
this simul climbing.

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online
Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony

[warrierbalram]

--- In nanga...@yahoogroups.com, "nuwazish nariman patel"
<Nuwazish_Patel@r...> wrote:


Hey some pretty techie stuff going on here...

Just to add a few points about simul climbing..
I suppose this can be done on easy pitches where you are very sure
that there is no chance of falling and the holds and rock quality is
good...
In simul climbing a leader taking a fall is OK ... it is a usual thing
just that the second climber will be pulled up by the force assuming
that the pro\ placed by the leader is good(The second climber is not
anchored anywhere so he might get pulled up a lot ). In fact since the
second climbers body weight will act as a dampner the force on the pro
will be less. (which is almost as if the second climber is giving a
belay --- without being anchored himself)--- also in case the pro
fails and considering thats the only pro .. the climbers are going to
have a bad fall all the way down...(but i suppose there won't be just
one piece between the 2 ... there should be plenty so as to avoid a
total failure)
The situation that seems a bit scary is that the leader is climbing
and the second falls ... the leader will be pulled down (a long
fall)and hopefully stop at the nearest pro he placed..so just because
of a small slip of the second climber the leader takes a big
fall.(which in case of a belay could be avoided) - To avoid this the
leader could place a prusik device which will allow rope to move up
with the leader but in case of the second falling the downward motion
of the rope will not be allowed by the device and hence the seconds
fall won't affect the leader.. i suppose a jumar could be used here...
One more consideration is how much slack to have between the 2
climbers... if there is very little slack then some sudden movement by
the leader could throw the second out of balance or vice versa...
To adjust the slack would be difficult in case the climbers cant see
or hear each other.
I definately feel that the safety facor reduces in simul climbing ,,,
We must think twice before doing such things .Just because we read it
somewhere and that people in US or other countries do it, we must not
follow it blindly... The point we must consider is our bolt quality ..
here people use atleast 1.5 or 2 inches 12 mm bolts with good
hangers.. In our climbs we have 8 mm .5 inch bolts which i am not sure
will be able to hold a good lead fall even when new (they seem good
for aid climbing).. leave alone when they are rusted after a few years
torture.

Hey , but why am i giving so much gyaaan... as if i have been simul
climbing since years.. he he....

Just wanted to point out that we need to put in some thought before
trying out such things,,,, actually i also have read a lot about solo
climbing and i feel it could be safer than simul climbing, since here
we have a solid anchor atleast... only that here we have no belayer...
i would love to attempt solo on 120 rather than simul climb... that is
if i am able to lead 120 without much fuss.. (Which i am not at present)

Anyways so thats it ... I am having a nice time here , am climbing at
the rock gym atleast 3 times a week, trying to build up some finger
power so that i am ready for the next climbing season in India.. (will
be monsoons when i get back - so missed this years climbing)

Heres some detailed stuff about simul climbing i found....(maybe repeated)
##############################################################
At some time on your route you may find that the terrain is rather
easy to climb and that you feel comfortable without a fixed belay. The
method to employ here is simul-climbing. Properly employed,
simul-climbing can keeping you moving and speeding your ascent
considerably.


Simul-climbing is a method of movement in which climbers are moving at
the same time; the leader is placing protection and clipping the rope
through it as usual, and the second is removing the protection when
she arrives at the placement. There is no fixed 'belay' as such, as
the second is not anchored to the rock and is climbing at the same
time as the leader. However, if the leader were to fall (which should
be extremely unlikely, as you must only simul-climb when the terrain
is so easy that falling is a remote possibility) the protection
between her and the second is called upon to catch the fall. The
body-weight of the second is going to take some of the shock, though
she will probably be jerked up and off of the rock anyway, and leader
and second will likely end up hanging for a few moments (until they
get straightened out) on the protection which caught the leader. This
is the worst-case scenario, however. As mentioned, falling should be a
remote possibility when simul-climbing.


You must judge for yourself what you mean by 'easy' terrain. For one
climber this may mean 5.10 rock, for another it may mean 5.5 rock;
because of this potential disparity it is critical for the two
climbers to agree that the terrain is 'easy'. Once you have agreed to
simul-climb, it's a good idea to let the better climber (on the
terrain in question) lead, reducing the chance of falling. This
assumes that you and your partner have the guts to say 'Ok, I'll go
first, I'm not as good as you are on rock/ice/whatever.'. If you can't
handle this sort of confession, or are so competitive that you can't
bear to 'give in', I suggest you drop climbing (at least alpine
climbing) and think seriously about your life.


Let's assume you're at a belay and, looking upwards (or downwards, as
the case may be), you and your partner have decided to simul-climb.
The ''stronger' climber (on this particular terrain) leads off. For
starters, you may as well keep them on belay while they run out most
of the rope. There's no reason not to do so, and a belay is always
better than no belay. When you see that most of the rope is out, just
take your anchors and start climbing. You have two choices with
regards to the amount of slack between yourself and the leader. You
may want to keep it rather taut, so that they are almost, but not
quite, tugging you along. This is good when the terrain is more
difficult (but still easy enough for simul-climbing); if the leader
does slip the reduced slack will keep the impact on you as low as
possible. On the other hand, you may find that you're more comfortable
with a bit of slack trailing between your feet, so that when you stop
to take out the protection your leader has placed you won't be
instantly tugged upward by the leader continuing upward (remember,
though: if you're on such difficult rock that a little tug can pull
you off, it would probably be better to belay).


The leader continues upward. They use natural or artificial protection
as necessary. They must keep in mind that you are down below, having
to stop occasionally to get out the gear they've placed. Therefore,
it's best if they occasionally look back to see where you are in
relation to the next piece. They should also take note of any
particularly difficult sections, which may slow the second, and stop
to belay off a nut or piton while you overcome that section. You then
continue on as usual.


When the leader is down to a few pieces of protection, they should
stop, set up a few anchors and belay second as she comes up. When the
second arrives she simply hands over the gear to the leader, the two
decide whether the next section is 'simul-climbable', and then proceed
as required.


Depending on the seriousness of the consequences of a fall, you may
wish to shorten the rope between the climbers. To do this, coil the
rope as you would for glacier travel (see the section on Glacier
Travel). Again, keep the rope taut.


You will gather that the most important aspect of simul-climbing is a
very close understanding of your partner's abilities and thinking. How
will he cope with that steep bit ? Will that knifeblade be difficult
to remove, and will he need extra time there ? Can I climb rock as
well as she can ? After a few climbs with the same partner you'll
begin to get a feel for how they climb. For simul-climbing this is
often the most useful information you can have; for this reason, you
might find it unnerving to simul-climb with a stranger (I won't do
it), and I advise against it. However, because of the dangerous nature
of alpine climbing I find that the 'turnover rate' of partners is
pretty low compared to, say, sport-climbers. Hell, anyone (well,
nearly anyone) can belay me as I claw up a super-protected sport
route, but I'm not going on a two-day alpine ordeal with someone I
don't know.


#####################################################

[warrierbalram]

--- In nanga...@yahoogroups.com, "BENJAMIN DESOUZA"
<benji_india@h...> wrote:

good info Nova, although I notice it is more of caution against
Simul-Climbing. I however agree to your points on the quality of
protection
(bolts) along the route being verrry important in this style in
addition to
the understanding between the climbers .

What is not considered here is the fact that the shock (both physical and
mental- mainly mental) during a fall would be a big hinderance in
continuing the climb.
Under normal climbing if the lead falls, only one man falls, and if
the lead
does not feel too good. the second / next man can continue to lead the
climb. Now in Simu- climbing, if one guy takes a fall, in all probabliity
all guys will fall, and such circumstances to continue, will mean all
guys
have guts of titanium.

Just one thing- does your idea of Soloing 120 mean u will climb with no
equipment other than your chalk bag. or does Soloing have another meaning.

One more thing, the 2 bolts u put above the 21/42 rock have disappeared,
this sunday when we went there they were gone.

Benji

[warrierbalram]

--- In nanga...@yahoogroups.com, "nuwazish nariman patel"
<Nuwazish_Patel@r...> wrote:

Hey benji,

about my mail on simul climbing... that was my opinion considering my
climbing skills... anyways ya it was just to say that we need to
understand the pro's and con's as well as the safety factors before
trying any new style of climbing..

and about soloing... soloing does not mean to climb without
protection.. in this i will have a rope , will place protections , but
no belayer ,,, only me .. thats why it is called soloing... atleast
thats what i understand..
In this the clmber ties one end of the rope to a solid anchor and uses
a device like Silent partner... the device is tied to climbers harness
and connected to the rope.. as the climber moves up the device allows
the rope to pass through.. but in case of a sudden fall it locks...

For details of this device see the following link:
http://www.wrenindustries.com/silentpart.html
It is costly but a cool device... it is almost as if climbing when
someone is belaying you.
This is the same mechanism used in seatbelts of cars... when you pull
the seatbelt slowly it will move but a sudden jerk will stop it..

There are other traditional methods like tying fig 8 knots on the
entire rope and as you move up remove the fig 8 knot and replace it by
another,,, but rather primitive and difficult to use..

Hey i suppose the bolts might have been removed by someone feeling
that it was unsafe ... i remember that the rock at Kanheri is very
soft .. was able to drill a hole in 5 mins ... so maybe the bolt might
have become loose and someone might have removed it for safety.. thats
Ok. We should put up 2-3 inches 10 mm bolts there ... i will surely
get some good bolts like Petzl center pin(2 inch 10 mm) for setting up
top rope routes which we use very often.

and by the way how did you think i was talking of climbing 120 without
rope ... he he he ...

Hey , read about Yana going to Rajmachi and Aarya going to the
climbing wall with Raj,,,, thats great..


So thats it ,,
I will get back to some work..