Joining 2 ropes

[Balram Warrier]

I remember, on the first day of RCTC, discussing with
Benji about the knot used to join 2 ropes during a
abseil.... In fact, he was the one, who introduced the
topic, along with Vijay & Ganesh..... I wasn't very
much convinced with what was discussed..... rather,
got my head in a Tango...

All the same, chk out this bulletin board, about an
accident that happened while abseiling, after joining
2 ropes with a overhand figure of 8 also called
"European Death Knot"

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=4346#msg4346

well....this incident, highlights 2 issues....
1) The type of Knot to be used &
2) The importance of dressing a knot well....

Also chk out the link " Rope Stuff" under
http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/techweenie.html

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[Balram Warrier]

Relevant to the discussion on the knot, known as the
‘European Death Knot’ or EDK – the things I see
relevant in the link (for those who have gone through
it) that Balu posted, are cut and pasted below. There
are a whole spectrum of views ranging from the ultra
cautious to the weird.
Regarding safety - How people address safety, I think,
is more a process of the mind, the person’s attitude
towards it and the understanding of the subject more
than anything else.
Fulton.

a) More than adequate for rappeling? Well, obviously
not. An overhand knot or an overhand figure-8 are
knots that have been demonstrated to roll and come
untied WAY too easily. Sure, they should have checked
the knot and the length of tail. The accident has as
much to do with user error as it does the type of knot
used to rappel. But I'll always choose to use the knot
that is less likely to come untied. A lower profile
knot that is easier to untie after being weighted
certainly sounds luring qualities, but there are very
few circumstances that I can think of that would
prompt me to choose this type of knot over one that is
clearly more secure. Convenience be damned. Dying is
rather inconvenient, don't you think?

b) So I got thinking about how I started using this
fig-eight method and liked it, but I never actually
sat in my back garden thinking "I wonder how close you
can tie this to the ends" or "what are the failure
modes of this knot". I just got on and used it. How
many people are like this - just starting to use a new
nifty way of doing things, without really exploring
all it's weaknesses? Now I have taken that time and
tied this knot and pulled it apart a number of times
in different ways and I have learnt something. I guess
some of the point of posting is to say just that -
it's not just me that "learns" new techniques in this
way and gets on using them without really thinking
through all the limitations, without testing (in
however shoddy a fashion) what might happen in the
margins. I am not telling anyone how to go about their
climbing, just saying be aware of these things that
you have not fully tested and explored. Don't just
assume it'll all be fine.
None of us climbs perfectly, you tie these knots a
zillion times in your life, you set up a zillion
belays (are they all perfectly equalised,
multidirectional and with redundancy?). We all have
had to wing-it in various situations when things were
getting hairy....this wasn't one of them. Please don't
screw up the easy stuff - as much as you can, know the
necessary margin of safety for whatever method you
prefer. There are guys have been using the EDK for
years and will continue to do so safely, and no doubt
there will be guys die using this knot sometime in the
years to come.

c) Loading that knot on a double-rope rappel actually
pulls the knot apart. You want the forces on you ropes
to tighten your knots, not destroy them! That is why
the follow-through figure 8 and grapevine/fisherman's
are so popular (and safe) for tying two ropes
together.
And as for tails, all of the tails in the world won't
help you if your knot fails outright. Tails without a
backup knot works on the assumption that the knot may
slowly untie itself by slippage (which is *possible*
for a knot like a follow-through figure 8). Without a
back up knot, if this assumption fails, so will you.
Tails are a false sense of security. You might even
call them a hazard in and of themselves.
As for ropes getting snagged, that is certainly a
valid concern. Accidents can and do happen for this
reason. However, consider that a snagged rope poses
the risk of an accident, whereas a failed knot is the
root cause of an accident. Keep your options open.

d) Its all part of the game we love
Death is certain...life is not
make sure those around you know you love them and soak
life for all its worth.

[warrierbalram]

--- In nanga...@yahoogroups.com, "BENJAMIN DESOUZA"
<benji_india@h...> wrote:
SAFETY- I agree about it being a state of the mind. however as regards
joining two ropes, based on the info I got from some testing sites, I
consider it safe to use
1. the double fisherman,
2. two overhand (thumb) knots, one on the other
3. the wovern fig 8 (where the free rope ends are on opposite sides of
the
knot unlike the EDK).

If I can locate the address of these sites where these knots are tested I
will post them, however in brief from what I have read knot no (1)
and (3)
are relatively bulky and if the route is such that there is constant
friction between the rope and the rock, the rope tends to get worn out at
the knot,which does not happenin case of (2), also know no 2 is very easy
and almost everybody knows it, so confusion is eleminated about the
correctness of the knot.

by the way on sunday I saw that Kavita has touched the top side crak
of the
FC route
bregards
Benji