Re: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

[WILLIAM KELLY]

Thanks, Carroll.  Perhaps you know or another member of this conversation group knows how to start a fund for this specific purpose and who we need to contact to do so.  We also will donate to a fenced area for smaller dogs at Nate's Dog Park.  If we cannot get approval and funding for such a fenced area or until we can, perhaps we can reach agreement on a plan that would alternate days so that dogs no larger than 35-30 pounds rotate days with dogs greater than 30 pounds.   In the meantime, does anyone else out there have suggestions or helpful information that would achieve safe use of Nate's Dog Park for all dogs.

We wish to emphasize, that we love all dogs and large dogs are no more likely than small dogs to pick a fight.  The justification for a separate area is simply that small dogs cannot adequately defend themselves against larger dogs and often end up badly injured or killed when there is a conflict between them.  Whereas, larger dogs are more capable of defending themselves and I have yet to hear of a large dog being badly injured or killed in a  fight.

Thanks for the input and help.  I hope we can gain support for this project so that all our pets can frolic in the parks freely and safely. 

Bill & Bob

----- Original Message ----
From: "duffy...@cox.net" <duffy...@cox.net>
To: np...@googlegroups.com
Cc: WILLIAM KELLY <wek...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 6:11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Hi, I never took the poll, but I would also be willing to donate money to have an area for the small dogs.  We have 3 dogs - a 12 pounder, an 80 pounder and a 110 pounder.  Both my husband and I would like to see an area for the small 'kids'.  Please let me know how we can help and where to send our donation to be used specifically for the small dog fencing.  Thanks you.  
Carroll

---- WILLIAM KELLY <wek...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The poll really should have explained why there was a request for a separate area for small dogs.  Many large dog owners are not aware of the problems with sudden attacks on small dogs, which are increasing in frequency and have resulted in at least one death so far.  The majority of dogs using the dog park are large dog owners and this skews the results and the poll unfavorable.  Keep in mind that many small dog owners want to take their smaller dogs to Nates Point but cannot use the park simply because it is too risky for their smaller dogs.  As the saying goes, "It is all in the details."  I recommend you take the poll again with an explanation.  
>
> Thank you,
>
> Bill Kelly & Bob Taylor
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Nate's Point News <ne...@npdog.org>
> To: Nate's Point Dog Park <np...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 1:57:01 PM
> Subject: [NPDog] Construction Starting!
>
>
>
> Next week will be the official start of construction!  We should
> actually have a drinking fountain in time for summer, along with a new
> picnic table and disabled access.  Thanks to everybody that supported
> the project.
>
> We'll also be following up on the Small Dog Area Poll.  For those of
> you that never saw the results, here they are:
>
> Would you want a separate fenced small dog area in the Nates Point Dog
> Park in Balboa Park?
> Yes, please! I'd even donate to get it built.   26%
> Yes, but I wouldn't donate for this project.   17%
> Not my preference, but okay.   23%
> No way - no more fencing!   34%
>
> NPDog News
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[FGG]

 

We are also in for a contribution. Anyone have a budget figure for the Park within the Park ???

 

F.George Gilman

President and Managing Broker

Pacific Pinnacle Real Estate

619-300-7217

[Nate's Point News]

Nate's Point Community -

We are following up with Parks and Rec regarding the possibilities for
a separate small dog area. We will let you know their response and
what level of support they will provide, if any. They might say
"Great, if you have the money, let's do it", or it might be a long
approval process through committees and public forums. Remember, in
this case we are talking about very visible fencing, not just the
canyon perimeter, so there is potentially a different level of
opposition. While our group seems to be about 50/50 on the idea, you
never know what other groups decide to make their voice heard.

As for funding, the conservative estimate is around $23/foot for
quality fencing, including installation. Depending on the size of the
project and the deals at the time, of course.

If anybody has ideas for how such an area might be designed within the
park, please feel free to e-mail a sketch to in...@npdog.org. We will
provide those to Parks staff.

Thanks to everybody who is getting involved - we're glad to see this
discussion board getting some use! We'll let you know the response
from Parks as soon as possible.

David Lynn
NPDog

[WILLIAM KELLY]

Thank you, David, for the information.  Small dogs are happier in small areas and therefore the area we are talking about doesn't have to be huge, and the fence doesn't have to be unattractive.  As I am not a skilled draftsmen nor trained in that area and do not have a schematic of Nate's Dog Park, I cannot provide a sketch.  However, we personally would be happy to see an area encompassing the smaller sloped sections of  the northeast quadrant where fencing s already in place on 3 sides and there is an existing gated entrance from the bridge.  This would require only one section of fencing be added which could enclose that area for smaller dogs and leave the larger area to the bigger dogs that need more room to roam and chase.

How does this sound to everyone?

Thanks,

Bill & Bob

----- Original Message ----
From: Nate's Point News <ne...@npdog.org>
To: Nate's Point Dog Park <np...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 10:45:42 AM
Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

[schatzi land]

We have taken our small dachshaund to Balboa since we got him. For
MONTHS we went every weekend just to observe and try to figure out
what type of dog we wanted. I think I am pretty familar with the
area.

I understand your concern about the small dog area. But please
remember that some of us take our small dogs to Nate's point so that
they can socialize with big dogs. It is important in his developement
to understand how to interact with the big dogs as well.

We are happy to support this "park within a park" if it still allows
us to take Schatzi into the "big dog" area. It would be a shame for
him to loose his relationships with those dogs.

On May 19, 11:01 am, WILLIAM KELLY <wekb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thank you, David, for the information. Small dogs are happier in small areas and therefore the area we are talking about doesn't have to be huge, and the fence doesn't have to be unattractive. As I am not a skilled draftsmen nor trained in that area and do not have a schematic of Nate's Dog Park, I cannot provide a sketch. However, we personally would be happy to see an area encompassing the smaller sloped sections of the northeast quadrant where fencing s already in place on 3 sides and there is an existing gated entrance from the bridge. This would require only one section of fencing be added which could enclose that area for smaller dogs and leave the larger area to the bigger dogs that need more room to roam and chase.
>
> How does this sound to everyone?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill & Bob
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Nate's Point News <n...@npdog.org>
> To: Nate's Point Dog Park <np...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 10:45:42 AM
> Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!
>
> Nate's Point Community -
>
> We are following up with Parks and Rec regarding the possibilities for
> a separate small dog area. We will let you know their response and
> what level of support they will provide, if any. They might say
> "Great, if you have the money, let's do it", or it might be a long
> approval process through committees and public forums. Remember, in
> this case we are talking about very visible fencing, not just the
> canyon perimeter, so there is potentially a different level of
> opposition. While our group seems to be about 50/50 on the idea, you
> never know what other groups decide to make their voice heard.
>
> As for funding, the conservative estimate is around $23/foot for
> quality fencing, including installation. Depending on the size of the
> project and the deals at the time, of course.
>
> If anybody has ideas for how such an area might be designed within the

> park, please feel free to e-mail a sketch to i...@npdog.org. We will

> provide those to Parks staff.
>
> Thanks to everybody who is getting involved - we're glad to see this
> discussion board getting some use! We'll let you know the response
> from Parks as soon as possible.
>
> David Lynn
> NPDog
>
> On May 19, 10:24 am, "FGG" <Gil...@PacificPinnacle.com> wrote:
> > We are also in for a contribution. Anyone have a budget figure for the Park within the Park ???
>
> > F.George Gilman
> > President and Managing Broker
> > Pacific Pinnacle Real Estate

> > 619-300-7217- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[FGG]

Palm Springs has an excellent model of a "park within a park". The small dog
area is compact and limited to small dogs. The big park area is available
for all dogs. In that way, a small dog owner decides where their pet will
roam and socialize. Works very, very well.

We typically start Sal in the small dog arena and then, depending on the
population and behavior of pets in the larger arena will either transfer him
or keep him in the small dog arena.

George Gilman

[FGG]

Palm Springs has an excellent model of a "park within a park". The small dog
area is compact and limited to small dogs. The big park area is available
for all dogs. In that way, a small dog owner decides where their pet will
roam and socialize. Works very, very well.

We typically start Sal in the small dog arena and then, depending on the
population and behavior of pets in the larger arena will either transfer him
or keep him in the small dog arena.

George Gilman
----- Original Message -----
From: "schatzi land" <cinde_...@yahoo.com>

To: "Nate's Point Dog Park" <np...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 1:57 PM

[FGG]

Palm Springs has an excellent model of a "park within a park". The small dog
area is compact and limited to small dogs. The big park area is available
for all dogs. In that way, a small dog owner decides where their pet will
roam and socialize. Works very, very well.

We typically start Sal in the small dog arena and then, depending on the
population and behavior of pets in the larger arena will either transfer him
or keep him in the small dog arena.

George Gilman
----- Original Message -----
From: "schatzi land" <cinde_...@yahoo.com>

To: "Nate's Point Dog Park" <np...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 1:57 PM

[WILLIAM KELLY]

Dear Fellow Dog Lover,

Thank you for your support.  We understand your desire and are not asking that you not be allowed to take your small dog into an area where larger dogs romp and play.  What we are asking is that this be a choice we make as owners.  We small dog owners merely want the opportunity to make a choice between letting our dogs mingle with the large dogs at their and our personal risk or instead limit our little ones to a separate area.   As it stands now, if we wish to take our smaller dogs to the park to romp and play off the leash, we must accept the very real risk of attack, injury and even death.   We see no reason why this can't be a win win situation.  It would require at most, only one section of fence in the slopping east area of the park leaving the larger flat fenced area for the large dogs that need more room to run and play.

If an owner feels his or her dog is safe mingling with much larger dogs, then by all means, this is their decision and they should be allowed to do so.   However, all dog owners should be given the option of assessing the risk for themselves and small dog owners given the choice of taking their dog(s) to a restricted area of the park for smaller dogs only.  As it stands now, small dog owners have only 2 options, go to the park or not go to the park.  Large dog owners generally feel secure that their pets can take care of themselves and are less likely to be mauled to death by another dog. 

We too wish we could allow our small dog to mingle with his larger dog friends and until this attack had no problem doing so.  We brushed off as a rare isolated incident the deadly attack last year in the same park on our friends small puppy as they witnessed a Dalmatian crush its spine requiring them to euthanize the little guy.  We also saw our Jack's attack by one owner's 2 labs, both 5 times Jack's size.  He was taken into the mouth of one of them and shaken like a rag doll.  We watched in total horror as he yelped out in piercing cries of pain and fear.  Anyone having that experienced would think twice about ever again subjecting their dear pets to such a very real threat.  We caution you to not make the same mistake we did and if you are going to let your little guys play with the big kids, be as certain as one can that the larger dogs they interact with are indeed well socialized and harmless.
. 
We began this campaign for an optional area in Nates Point Dog Park for small dogs only not just in reaction to our little Jack experienced but as a result of having since heard of several other such reports from small dog owners.  We can no longer accept this as an isolated happening and consider it a wake up call to us that all our dear dogs are still animals and in that sense, large or small, unpredictable.

As dog lovers, we have had many large and small dogs in our lifetime and reiterate that neither large nor small dogs are any less likely to pick a fight.  However, small dogs are virtually defenseless against much larger dogs and as owners, it is our responsibility to use good judgment and avoid unpredictable and/or unsafe situations.  Taking a small dog to the dog park where larger dogs romp is setting up a potential for disaster that has already played out several times and resulted in at least one innocent death of a beloved defenseless pet.  It is a disaster that could be avoided by responsible owners and prudent behavior. 

Thank you,

[WRZ .]

Try meetup.com and plug in your zip code.
Most of the dog groups are comprised of small
breed owners looking for compatible play partners.

Please be extremely careful with dachshunds
around large dogs. This breed is at the top
of my list of tiny breeds most likely to be
injured at a dogpark.

They have the same risks as other very small
breeds but they also cannot run as fast and
their backs are very susceptible to disc
problems if another dog jumps on them.

If you take your tiny dog in with large dogs
enough times, eventually it will pay a very dear
price for the risk you are taking.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Dodgerslist/ = 1584 people
This group of 1500 + people is devoted
to back problems of this breed. There is
no similar list for any other breed.

Please ask the people in that group what they
think of bringing a dachshund into a 1-size-fits-all
dogpark.

Bill Zardus
WRZ

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dogpark-National-News/

--- In GSOBar...@yahoogroups.com,
"uncwmel4" <uncwmel4@...> wrote:
>
>I was wondering if there was a regular time where
dachshund owners meet at the Bark Park. It seems
like everytime we take our two mini dachshunds to
the dog park..there are only big breeds like boxers,
labs, retrievers. Although, for the most part, the
big dogs have been very good with our little dogs,
I think my dogs would be more willing to run around
and be playful if they had dogs their size around them.
>
>Thanks!
>

----Original Message Follows----
From: schatzi land <cinde_...@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: np...@googlegroups.com

To: Nate's Point Dog Park <np...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:57:06 -0700

_________________________________________________________________
Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now.
It’s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07

[WRZ .]

You would need to tell us the breed and/or size of
your dog to assess this comment.

Most of the dogs being killed at dogparks are
10 pounds or under and they can die from some
freak accident like running into a large dog
while chasing a ball or having a large dog step
on them. But the most frequent cause of death
is a large dog with a strong prey instinct picking
the dog up in it's mouth and snapping it's neck
with a couple of quick shakes.

One of the reasons you seldom see Greyhounds
at dogparks is because there are so many people
bringing tiny dogs to dogparks who don't fully
understand the risk they are taking until it is too
late.

Regards

Bill Zardus
WRZ

----Original Message Follows----
From: "FGG" <Gil...@PacificPinnacle.com>
Reply-To: np...@googlegroups.com
To: <np...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 15:17:18 -0700

George Gilman

_________________________________________________________________
More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507

[WRZ .]

Bill Zardus
WRZ

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dogpark-National-News/

To: Nate's Point Dog Park <np...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:57:06 -0700

_________________________________________________________________

[WRZ .]

You would need to tell us the breed and/or size of
your dog to assess this comment.

Most of the dogs being killed at dogparks are
10 pounds or under and they can die from some
freak accident like running into a large dog
while chasing a ball or having a large dog step
on them. But the most frequent cause of death
is a large dog with a strong prey instinct picking
the dog up in it's mouth and snapping it's neck
with a couple of quick shakes.

One of the reasons you seldom see Greyhounds
at dogparks is because there are so many people
bringing tiny dogs to dogparks who don't fully
understand the risk they are taking until it is too
late.

Regards

Bill Zardus
WRZ

----Original Message Follows----
From: "FGG" <Gil...@PacificPinnacle.com>
Reply-To: np...@googlegroups.com
To: <np...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 15:17:18 -0700

George Gilman

[WRZ .]

Bill Zardus
WRZ

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dogpark-National-News/

To: Nate's Point Dog Park <np...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:57:06 -0700

_________________________________________________________________

[leana....@uniontrib.com]

As a greyhound mix dog owner, I can tell you that my one-year-old puppy will happily play with dogs of any size and shape--and dogs big and small have welcomed him in the fold. I can also tell you that my dog loves and needs room to run.

The only death at the dog park I have heard of is the coyote that came out at sunset and took a small dog into the canyon. Can't blame that on anyone but the coyote.

As for there being a problem with different sized dogs? The only problem I have encountered at the park is small dog owners becoming defensive and snotty if my dog goes within 10 feet of where their dogs are standing. Perhaps they are being a bit too overprotective and judgmental. And if we can't all get along, perhaps paranoid dog owners should stay home.

This discussion has become petty very quickly.

Regards

Bill Zardus
WRZ

George Gilman

_________________________________________________________________
More photos, more messages, more storage-get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507

[WILLIAM KELLY]

Our dog is a 5 year old 20 pound long hair Daschund and King Charles Spaniel mix that is so docile he allows anyone to take food or toys out of his mouth without even as much as a growl or a bark.  I hope this helps.  Thanks, Bill :)

More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507

[WRZ .]

Bill Zardus
WRZ

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dogpark-National-News/

To: Nate's Point Dog Park <np...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:57:06 -0700

_________________________________________________________________

[WILLIAM KELLY]

Our dog is a 5 year old 20 pound long hair Daschund and King Charles Spaniel mix that is so docile he allows anyone to take food or toys out of his mouth without even as much as a growl or a bark.  I hope this helps.  Thanks, Bill :)

----- Original Message ----
From: WRZ . <ccdo...@hotmail.com>
To: np...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 6:40:16 AM
Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

You would need to tell us the breed and/or size of
your dog to assess this comment.

Most of the dogs being  killed at dogparks are
10 pounds or under and they can die from some
freak accident like running into a large dog
while chasing a ball or having a large dog step
on them.  But the most frequent cause of death
is a large dog with a strong prey instinct  picking
the dog up in it's mouth and snapping it's neck
with a couple of quick shakes.

One of the reasons you seldom see Greyhounds
at dogparks is because there are so many people
bringing tiny dogs to dogparks who don't fully
understand the risk they are taking until it is too
late.

Regards

Bill Zardus
WRZ


----Original Message Follows----
From: "FGG" <Gil...@PacificPinnacle.com>
Reply-To: np...@googlegroups.com

To: <np...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 15:17:18 -0700


Palm Springs has an excellent model of a "park within a park". The small dog
area is compact and limited to small dogs. The big park area is available
for all dogs. In that way, a small dog owner decides where their pet will
roam and socialize. Works very, very well.

We typically start Sal in the small dog arena and then, depending on the
population and behavior of pets in the larger arena will either transfer him
or keep him in the small dog arena.

George Gilman


----- Original Message -----
From: "schatzi land" <cinde_...@yahoo.com>

To: "Nate's Point Dog Park" <np...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 1:57 PM

Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!


>

[Conley, Ellen]

AMEN!

-----Original Message-----
From: np...@googlegroups.com [mailto:np...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of

leana....@uniontrib.com
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 10:52 AM
To: np...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

As a greyhound mix dog owner, I can tell you that my one-year-old puppy will
happily play with dogs of any size and shape--and dogs big and small have
welcomed him in the fold. I can also tell you that my dog loves and needs
room to run.

The only death at the dog park I have heard of is the coyote that came out
at sunset and took a small dog into the canyon. Can't blame that on anyone
but the coyote.

As for there being a problem with different sized dogs? The only problem I
have encountered at the park is small dog owners becoming defensive and
snotty if my dog goes within 10 feet of where their dogs are standing.
Perhaps they are being a bit too overprotective and judgmental. And if we
can't all get along, perhaps paranoid dog owners should stay home.

This discussion has become petty very quickly.

-----Original Message-----
From: np...@googlegroups.com [mailto:np...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of
WRZ .

Regards

Bill Zardus
WRZ

George Gilman

_________________________________________________________________
More photos, more messages, more storage-get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migratio
n_HM_mini_2G_0507

[WILLIAM KELLY]

As said previously, the friend who had his dog, also a loving trusting puppy, was killed at the park was killed by a Dalmatian, not a Coyote!  While you have not personally witnessed an attack from another dog, as witnessed by others who have written into this forum, it has happened several times before.  I am glad you have not witnessed it yourself.  Thanks for your input.  Bill

[leana....@uniontrib.com]

What are you going to do? Assume that all big/medium sized dogs are potential killers? Be realistic. My medium-sized dog has been attacked--yes attacked--by small biting dogs that yapping and snarling their way through the park. And because of their size, the owners don't bother to control them. Instead they blame the "big" dogs for scaring their little ones.

 

This just reaffirms the comment below that the small dog owners I have I have encountered are a little uptight. And if they are that concerned, they should not go to the dog park at all.

[Laura Dunn]

Indeed. My parent's Malamute attacked a Maltese and killed it. The Malamute had never been violent before, but that wasn't of great comfort to the Maltese or the Maltese's parent, I'm sure.

I have small dogs that I would love to take to the park, but the number of large dogs scares me. (Don't get me wrong, I love large dogs, but my little guys are likely to get trampled.) Because of that, I simply don't take them to park. It's sad because I know they would love to socialise, but I don't want to risk it. I also like the idea of a fenced smaller area, as my dogs are prone to scampering off.

I completely support the idea of a smaller fenced area for the smaller breeds to use if the pet-parent so chose, and not just because I have small dogs. Puppies are more likely to be better socialised if they can start off with dogs their size and gradually move into the Big Dog World. Why not use the small fenced area for small breeds and newly adopted puppies? It would be a fantastic way to ensure they don't get trampled or roam off in the blink of an eye. The larger area, as previously stated, could easily be used by both big and small dogs, but the smaller area would provide a safe haven for those smaller dogs, new puppies and even smaller dogs with slow-to-warm-up personalities.

I really think the park within a park is a fantastic idea and a win-win situation for everyone. But again, I don't go to the park because there is no small dog area, so... maybe I don't count.

***************************************
"And Lot's wife, of course, was told not to look

back where the people and their homes had been.

But she did  look back, and I love her for that,

because it was so human. And so, she was

turned into a pillar of salt..."

-Kurt Vonnegut, SlaughterHouse 5

---

From: WILLIAM KELLY <wek...@yahoo.com>

Reply-To: np...@googlegroups.com
To: np...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 12:13:11 -0700 (PDT)

[WILLIAM KELLY]

Dear "leana....@uniontrib.com",

This is not a personal feud of the them versus us variety.  I suggest we keep comments constructive and respectful of all dog owners and open to a resolution that works for all.  Whether large, small or medium, it is unreasonable for any of us to assume that all dogs of a particular size have the same patterns of behavior or for that matter that all owners of each size category are inclined to behave in the same manner.

I completely agree and have so stated several times during these discussions that small dogs are no less likely to misbehave than larger dogs, but the fact remains that the shear size and power of larger dogs is much more likely to end in serious harm or even death to the smaller dogs when there is a scuffle.  In any case, I reiterate that this is not a them vs. us discussion.  It is merely an attempt to make it possible for all dogs and their owners to enjoy the park with minimal risk to all through prudent measures respectful and protective of all.   While I thank you for expressing your view, suggesting people with valid concerns should simply stay away from the Park is neither an acceptable nor equitable solution to this challenge.

Bill

----- Original Message ----
From: "leana....@uniontrib.com" <leana....@uniontrib.com>
To: np...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 12:34:59 PM
Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

What are you going to do? Assume that all big/medium sized dogs are potential killers? Be realistic. My medium-sized dog has been attacked--yes attacked--by small biting dogs that yapping and snarling their way through the park. And because of their size, the owners don't bother to control them. Instead they blame the "big" dogs for scaring their little ones.

 

This just reaffirms the comment below that the small dog owners I have I have encountered are a little uptight. And if they are that concerned, they should not go to the dog park at all.

 

 

[lindag...@peoplepc.com]

Hi all,
Why not have some people who have large dogs and some with small dogs get
together and calmly talk out the situation. What are the problems and how
can we solve them. We need to show respect towards everyone. We are all
adults and we all want to have a place to let our dogs play off leash. Lets
solve the problems as a community of dog owners who care. Thanks.

Linda with guide dog, Jacob

[WILLIAM KELLY]

This is exactly what happened with our friends puppy and with our dog Jack.  In the case of our friend the attacking Dalmacian, without warning simply picked it up and shook it until it crushed its spine.   In the case of Jack,  one of the blonde labs simply picked him up in his mouth and began shaking him.  The other owner was in shock and for some reason I quickly got the lab to release Jack by grabbing his collar and holding him still as I commanded NO! NO!  We were lucky.  Bill

----- Original Message ----
From: WRZ . <ccdo...@hotmail.com>
To: np...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 6:40:16 AM
Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

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[Clarissa Phillips]

This discussion may well be over but since I am just getting back to my personal email I thought I would be my 2 cents in ~ I am a long time dog parker and I have never seen any event that would warrant separating the dogs by size.  Dogs are really much better than we humans at working things out so let's get on w/ worrying about other important things going on in the world.

Clarissa Phillips dog lover to: Auggie, Francie, Angie,Olivia & pals Naia,Sparky, Kafka & Mick

lindag...@peoplepc.com wrote:

Reply-To: np...@googlegroups.com
To:

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[WILLIAM KELLY]

Thank you, Clarissa.  Respectfully, I am glad you have not personally witnessed problems and I truly hope you never see your dog suffer such an attack or be badly injured or killed in what you believed to be a safe setting. 

 We understand your desire and are not asking that you not be allowed to take your small dog into an area where larger dogs romp and play.  What we are asking is that this be a choice we make as owners.  We small dog owners merely want the opportunity to make a choice between letting our dogs mingle with the large dogs at their and our personal risk or instead limit our little ones to a separate area.   As it stands now, if we wish to take our smaller dogs to the park to romp and play off the leash, we must accept the very real risk of attack, injury and even death.   We see no reason why this can't be a win win situation.  It would require at most, only one section of fence in the slopping east area of the park leaving the larger flat fenced area for the large dogs that need more room to run and play.

If an owner feels his or her dog is safe mingling with much larger dogs, then by all means, this is their decision and they should be allowed to do so.   However, all dog owners should be given the option of assessing the risk for themselves and small dog owners given the choice of taking their dog(s) to a restricted area of the park for smaller dogs only.  As it stands now, small dog owners have only 2 options, go to the park or not go to the park.  Large dog owners generally feel secure that their pets can take care of themselves and are less likely to be mauled to death by another dog. 

We too wish we could allow our small dog to mingle with his larger dog friends and until this attack had no problem doing so.  We brushed off as a rare isolated incident the deadly attack last year in the same park on our friends small puppy as they witnessed a Dalmatian crush its spine requiring them to euthanize the little guy.  We also saw our Jack's attack by one owner's 2 labs, both 5 times Jack's size.  He was taken into the mouth of one of them and shaken like a rag doll.  We watched in total horror as he yelped out in piercing cries of pain and fear.  Anyone having that experienced would think twice about ever again subjecting their dear pets to such a very real threat.  We caution you to not make the same mistake we did and if you are going to let your little guys play with the big kids, be as certain as one can that the larger dogs they interact with are indeed well socialized and harmless.
. 
We began this campaign for an optional area in Nates Point Dog Park for small dogs only not just in reaction to our little Jack experienced but as a result of having since heard of several other such reports from small dog owners.  We can no longer accept this as an isolated happening and consider it a wake up call to us that all our dear dogs are still animals and in that sense, large or small, unpredictable.

As dog lovers, we have had many large and small dogs in our lifetime and reiterate that neither large nor small dogs are any less likely to pick a fight.  However, small dogs are virtually defenseless against much larger dogs and as owners, it is our responsibility to use good judgment and avoid unpredictable and/or unsafe situations.  Taking a small dog to the dog park where larger dogs romp is setting up a potential for disaster that has already played out several times and resulted in at least one innocent death of a beloved defenseless pet.  It is a disaster that could be avoided by responsible owners and prudent behavior. 

Isn't it better to be safe then sorry?  We would be happy to see an area encompassing the smaller sloped sections of  the northeast quadrant where fencing s already in place on 3 sides and there is an existing gated entrance from the bridge.  This would require only one section of fencing be added which could enclose that area for smaller dogs and leave the larger area to the bigger dogs that need more room to roam and chase and to those with smaller dogs willing to take the risk, no matter how small.

Thank you,

[Paul Marciniak]

As I understand it, the "small dog area" will take ALL of the shade at Nate Point. I vote no.

[Jose L Pinedo]

I don't take my dogs to the park anymore; however I still receive these e-mails. The reason why I don't take them to the park is because one of my dogs (a very large dog) doesn't like other dogs. That's a sacrifice that I had to make on behalf of the safety of my dog and other dogs. Even though most of the times there was no incident, sometimes he would get attacked and sometimes he would attack other dogs. Generally he would go for the German shepherds or Rottweiler's.  Unfortunately one time he attacked a small dog because he would not let go of his toy. Who knows where the owner was, but I was able to separate them on time. One time he was attacked by a pit-bull. That was a very scary experience.  In my opinion, a lot of owners take their dogs to the park because it is easier than walk them for an hour and some dogs come to the park still with a lot of energy. A lot of owners not even watch their dog, that's the reason why often people step on dog poop.  It all comes to responsibility as a pet owner and not forget the fact, that small or large they are still animals. Good luck to all of you.

Jose Pinedo

[Alise Shatoff]

I am concerned about the shade issue also.  When it is hot or the park is crowded I take my 2 dogs (one large and one small) over to the far corner.  I am not against a small dog fenced area IF it can be designed so that it does not prevent everyone else from being able to use that part of park.

Any small dog area must be designed so that everyone still has access to the "best" parts of the park.  Any small dog sub-park should be very small (the little dogs don't need much room!) and we need to make sure that everyone else still has access to that beautiful upper portion.

Alise ; )

[Fabio de Faria]

I couldn't agree more with the email below.

Also, I believe that the answer is not segregation, but owner education and
responsibility. Parks with small and large dog areas are archaic and
uncreative, not to mention ugly.

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[WILLIAM KELLY]

Thank you, Paul, for sharing your thoughts and concerns of taking away all the shady areas from the larger breeds and their owners.

You must have an alternative idea that you would like to propose that would consider the needs of all.  As you consider the alternatives, please be aware that the large dog area will have the newly installed dog drinking fountain and the small dog area proposed would not.   Also, we are not asking for all the shaded area just a small portion of it, say 1/2.  That leaves more than 3/4 of the park to all larger breeds and their owners as well as any of the smaller breeds whose dogs they feel are not at risk.  In the interest of fairness to all dogs and dog lovers and tax payers, I don't think this is asking too much, and we are more than  willing to listen to other reasonable proposals that allow us something. 

For the record, despite several who have indicated they have never had a problem or witnessed attacks, please note that a significant number have experienced or witnessed such events.  Many others simply don't go to the park for this reason and because of it, they are not part of the discussion.  While I doubt that they these events are daily happenings, it is an issue that shouldn't be ignored.  Sooner or later, others will experience or be witness to an attack and they or their pet be injured or worse.  I wish it were not so, but it will happen again.  Let's do the responsible thing and think of an equitable solution that satisfies the needs of all park goers and dog lovers.

Bill & Bob

[robe...@yahoo.com]

Owner education?  On which date will you have every dog owner completely educated so that you can guarantee they will have 100% control of their dog?

Ugly?  Ridiculous.  Archaic?  To you.

For once, can we humans be proactive instead of waiting for disaster, and then "fix" what's broken?

----- Original Message ----
From: Fabio de Faria <fdef...@hotmail.com>
To: np...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:41:58 AM
Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

I couldn't agree more with the email below.

Also, I believe that the answer is not segregation, but owner education and
responsibility.  Parks with small and large dog areas are archaic and
uncreative, not to mention ugly.


>From: "Paul Marciniak" <paul...@sbcglobal.net>
>Reply-To: np...@googlegroups.com

>To: <np...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

>Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 09:10:39 -0700
>

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[Fabio de Faria]

Sorry that it is not perfect world, buddy. Should we fence it all in and
make it a controlled environment to make people like you happy? There are
many things in life we can't control, only deal with by educating and being
responsible.

As far as ugly and archaic, yes it is - to me. Thanks for letting me have
my opinion, which I am sure others share, by the way.

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[Laura Dunn]

I don't see why this has turned into a banter that could easily be overheard in a high school setting. We're all adults (I'd imagine) and I think that with a bit of empathy and an effort on everyone's part to listen with an open mind, we can come to an agreement that works for everyone.

I think the small dog area is a really good idea, and not just because it all but eliminates the worry of a smaller dog and a larger dog getting into a fight. It allows puppies to be socialised at a slower pace in a smaller area which is always preferable when beginning socialisation. Smaller dogs with slow-to-warm-up temperments (I have one) would be able to play within their comfort zones. Pet parents who have larger dogs wouldn't have to be worried about their dog injuring a smaller pup, and pet parents with smaller dogs wouldn't have to worry that their dog might pick a fight and not be able to protect itself against one twice its size. I think the smaller park within a park could really benefit everyone if we could just find a way to make it acceptable for both groups. I also understand the worry of losing the shady area to the small dog park, and the quality of the park being compromised. Those are very valid concerns and need to be discussed.

But the only way a solution will be reached is with patience and understanding on both sides. Regardless of whether or not a smaller-dog area is created, we need to respect that we all have different perspectives, valid points, and concerns that stem from experience. We all have the same goal, really: to provide our dogs with a safe and happy environment in which they can play, socialise and get exercise with other dogs. We need to remember that in this situation, those goals need to be priority number one.

***************************************
"And Lot's wife, of course, was told not to look

back where the people and their homes had been.

But she did  look back, and I love her for that,

because it was so human. And so, she was

turned into a pillar of salt..."

-Kurt Vonnegut, SlaughterHouse 5

From: "Fabio de Faria" <fdef...@hotmail.com>

Reply-To: np...@googlegroups.com
To: np...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:59:12 +0000

[Will Neblett]

I’d like to put my two cents in. I have been to many dog parks and many have had large and small dog areas and it works great. It sounds like there is a lot of conflict but I think that once the park is organized everyone will think it is a good idea. I don’t know if people have mentioned this but Nate’s Point as it stands is pretty big for my two beagles. They like to go everywhere (often in opposite directions) which means that I spend a lot of time on the move which I don’t mind but a divided space would make things more manageable for me. Thanks.

[lindag...@peoplepc.com]

Hi all,

I like the idea of the two fenced areas and the choice to use either.  I would like to be able to use a smaller area so I could let my guide dog off leash and I would be able to hear his bell.  In the park as it is now, I have to keep my dog on a flexi and try to not let it snag around anyone.  The place is so big, I can't hear his bell and therefore not know where my dog is.  My dog gets along very well with all dogs - large and small.  I worry more about my stepping on one accidentally.

 

Linda and guide dog, Jacob

----- Original Message -----

From: WILLIAM KELLY

To: np...@googlegroups.com

[Laura Dunn]

Linda, I just wanted to say that Jacob is a fantastic name for a dog. I love it. :)

***************************************
"And Lot's wife, of course, was told not to look

back where the people and their homes had been.

But she did  look back, and I love her for that,

because it was so human. And so, she was

turned into a pillar of salt..."

-Kurt Vonnegut, SlaughterHouse 5

---

From: <lindag...@peoplepc.com>
Reply-To: np...@googlegroups.com

To: <np...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [NPDog] Re: Construction Starting!

Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:12:23 -0700

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