Your privacy on the Internet

Sandra Harrell [SysOp]

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99

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A recent Wired News article highlights a new "community profiling"
scheme that Amazon has introduced to it's site. What this does is
profiles the buying habits af many companies/employees

I, for one, feel that this has done incredible harm to Internet
commerce because customers will think twice before purchasing online.
I have availed myself of many online stores (do most of my shopping
that way, actually<g>), but did not think that any of them would
violate my privacy in such a detrimental way.

The profiling of a company's employees in this manner is tantamount to
giving competitors inside information about what is going on, IMO.

Here is the article:

http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/21417.html

What do you all think?

Regards,

Sandra Harrell
Novell Support Connection Volunteer SysOp
=======================================================
Any opinions expressed in the above are entirely my own
and not necessarily those of my employer.
=======================================================

David Seymour

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99

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This whole "profiling" thing is spreading. It seems that personal
information (buying habits interests, ages, earnings,.... ) is being prized
out of us at every opportunity. If used to be (in the UK anyway) that you
get a mailer through the door, fill in this form and get a free object 'd
art, or wristwatch, or something similar of little use and quality. You
filled in your details, name, age, likes, dislike, interests, and then baam!
spam-snail-mails. Direct marketing is what it is all about.

I will give you a good example:

freeserve. When this was launched I thought I would sign up for it, take a
look, after all a local rate call to the internet is useful sometimes,
dynamic IP it may be. Before you can get a username and become a "registered
user", get you subdomain and receive mail, you must fill in, (on-line) a
small "survey" this asks you about all you interests, your age, your earning
range, how you heard about freeserve.....

Just think about it, from the freeserve example, providing you fill in the
information truthfully, they now have a small insight into you. You have now
become a record on their database, their list of people. Say abc corp has a
new product to sell, a book on flower arranging, feels like a bit of direct
marketing, hmmm. phone call goes:

<abc corp> hi, I would like to buy your database of all people interested in
flower arranging.
<freeserve> hmm, ok, we have 500,000 entries like that, how about you pay us
£50,000 for it?
<abc corp> ok, sounds great, CSV file format please!

However more probably, it goes something like this :

<dixons> hi freeserve, my good subsidiary, how about giving me a complete
list of everyone who is interested in pcs, components, software and anything
else we can flog them
<freeserve> er, ok.
<dixons> good man, mdb file please !

Like I said it only works if you are truthful, my standard response is:
110 years old, earning 28 million pounds as a sales professional and
part-time marathon runner, interested in stamp collecting and mountainering,
living at 1 North pole...

make up your own mind if it is the truth!

You mention that companies way be cautious about buying over the internet as
people are profiling them, but maybe it would do good.

A company buys two tins of coffee a week,every week. The seller logs this.
Maybe they could advise this other company to buy one great big tub a month,
as this would cost less, but they would get the same amount of coffee.
Depending on how synical you are, you could say that no comapny is ever
going to advise a client on a better way to buy. Anyway, my point was there,
privacy aside, could there be good to this "profilling" ????????

Delving deeper into this issue, I ask myself, "would I be happy if everyone
knew what I bought over the net", moving on from that, "would I be happy if
eveyone knew what I bought from anywhere". The answer to both questions is
no. The reason is that it is personal information, not something you let
just anyone know. But then, on the other hand, I have nothing to hide, I
don't care it some guy at sainsbury's ( we hate tesco!) know that I buy four
loaves of white bread a week, whats he gonna do? arrest me for it? laugh at
me? tell someone? what an interesting fact about me. but then if I am
prepared to share some personal information with everyone, why am I not
prepared to share other pieces? sensitivity, we have to decide what is O.K.
for friends, men from sainsbury's (we hate tesco!), partners, children to
know. and where you have to judge things, where you have to say "yes" or
"no" to something being revealed about you, then there are always
in-betweens, things you are not sure about, and whenever this is the case
the line gets blurred. Depending on how paranoid you are, maybe you should
tell no-one anything, keep everything to yourself. But then maybe people can
be trusted, and it doesn't really matter what they know. It comes down to
the individual as to how much they put with, how much information they are
prepared to let go. I think what amazon have done is wrong, that they have
kind of overstepped the mark, just been a bit naughty there.

Just my £0.04

Maybe I have strayed from my overall point here, or bored you to death, but
anyway.

good night all.

Sandra Harrell [SysOp] <sandra....@sysops.nsc> wrote in message
news:VA.0000005...@cc293777-a.chstfld1.va.home.com...

Ben A L Jemmett

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99

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Well, I don't do much shopping (on the internet or otherwise). I don't mind
CDNow having entries in their database saying 'This weirdo likes heavy
metal, punk, death rock, and a couple of 70s groups. He has also bought a
copy of every Metallica album we stock except ReLoad.' - it's common
knowledge anyway (it would be hard to keep it a secret, especially with this
set of speakers). That's fine - they can recommend 'The Dark' by Metal
Church based upon that information and sure, I'll buy it, I like it. Amazon
know I like Robert Rankin's novels and anything with references to Richard
Feynman in. eGroups know I like computing, especially old and low-resource
computers, and if they bothered to look could find out what my first PC was,
which OSes it ran and where and when it was purchased. They also know my
birthday. Novell know I'm willing to pay for a beta copy of NetWare 5, and
also that I develop software to run on NetWare networks using a free copy of
NetWare 5 and the NDK. In short, on the 'net, companies don't know anything
that isn't pretty common knowledge or easy to find out outside the 'net.

However, outside of the internet, companies know just as much - maybe more -
about me. The small supermarket just down the road from my old school might
have noticed that every day for the three weeks I spent working there on
VisualNet and installing a new network I dropped by to buy another 12 cans
of Coke, two packets of crisps and a packet of mints every day, and a jar of
coffee every week - at 1:30pm, give or take 5 minutes. Tesco (not that I
shop there at all frequently) probably know a lot more about me and my
eating habits than I'd like - although my Clubcard wasn't used the last
three times I was there. (Not that it's in my name or anything, but the
address is correct.) Gawddarnit, even people I've only ever seen, not
talked to, know more about my current projects/worries/emotional state than
anyone on the Internet - except, that is, friends I exchange regular e-mails
with.

So, basically, I don't care what companies on I buy from or browse on the
Internet know about me. I'm an induhvidual. Companies may not like their
employee's being profiled in this way, but I've yet to have any complaints
about profiling me personally. Of course, there's very little to know or
want to know about me, so whatever...

--
Regards, Web: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/8786
Ben A L Jemmett ICQ: 9848866 JGSD e-mail: benjemmett at geocities.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
'<INSERT SOME CORNY QUOTE HERE>'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Henderson [SysOp]

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99

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No, actually, David, you bring up a good point....The information a
place like Amazon has on you is only as good as what you give them.

If you don't tell them (directly or indirectly, such as shopping from
work and thus divulging an IP address that can be traced) what they're
looking for, they can't profile you on it.

Similarly, I tend to fill out such surveys with information that is not
entirely accurate. I have been known, for example, to point their
e-mail at a hotmail account and work through a dialup at work. They
won't know who I work for that way. :-)

Jim
--
Jim Henderson

Novell Support Connection Volunteer SysOp

http://support.novell.com/forums
(Sorry, support is not provided via e-mail)
Homepage at http://www.bigfoot.com/~jhenderson

Simon Bolingbroke

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Aug 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/29/99

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I agree entirely with the concerns expressed by Sarah...

I subscribe to "wired" and this particular article is another instance of
what concerns me about our industry (other Threads).

Such information is open to such significant media or competitor
misrepresentation as to be positively dangerous.

I can envisage all sorts of ways in which this information is open to abuse
to the detriment of Jobs, Big Corporates dirty tricks campaigns against
competitors (particularly small ones without the same budget), let alone
interpretation of Development Trends in R&D to steal an advantage.

I also think this represents breaches of "Duty and Care" and
"Confidentiality" for which we are going to see some interesting Exposés and
Litigation in the future.

It is yet another instance of a "thin edge of a wedge".

With kind regards,

Simon

Sandra Harrell [SysOp]

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Aug 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/29/99

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Amazon does not indicate that they will profile your buying habits when
you purchase from them. There are no surveys to fill out. You simply
fill in an order form, provide your shipping information and credit
card. There is no box to check saying that you give them permission to
use this data, which you provided on a SECURE site, in a public way.
Probably all businesses do some sort of profiling in order to sell you
what you want, but they don't make it public information. Usually, it
is used internally or sold to others - but it's never public.
Obviously, Amazon has been doing this in some way ever since they
started - you could see what other people bought related to a book you
have just purchased. But to now take it to the level of a company name
and its employees habits, how long before they profile such things as
people in your age range, people in your income bracket, people named
"sandra", people who live on your street?

Joe Consumer in a quandary about whether to begin purchasing online,
mostly concerned about privacy and security, is not going to be too
thrilled to see what happens when he buys something if sites do what
Amazon has done. Will he venture into online purchasing habits? I
think not.

Company A decides to enter into a new technology area - it's all hush
hush. Employees start buying books related to that subject. Company B
is very interested in what Company A is up to. Company B visits
Amazon.com and quickly sees that the top books being purchased are
related to x technology. Company B then beats Company A to market with
a similar technology as the one Company A was pursuing.

What will this do to the future of eCommerce should other sites emulate
Amazon.com?

What does this say about our individual rights to privacy? How long
before health insurance companies sell data about patients? (Guess
what, they already do!). Do we have a right to privacy?

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Aug 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/29/99

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Simon Bolingbroke wrote:
>
> I agree entirely with the concerns expressed by Sarah...

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.....Now you've done it! <G>

Shaun Pond

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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Jim,
they can if you do your ordering from the office, and they trap your IP
address...

Shaun Pond
Novell Support Connection SysOp

Simon Bolingbroke

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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Sandra Harrell [SysOp] wrote

> Ummm....its' Sandra

Oooops! :-/

I just can't explain why - I honestly don't know how I substituted Sandra
for Sarah :-(

I'm Very Sorry.

Stephen, errrrr....
Sebastian, errrrr....
Stanley, errrrr....
Oh I remember,
Simon. :-)

Simon Bolingbroke

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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There is many a slip twixt brain and finger tip....

Hmmmm,..... I think I had better re-enable SPX on my Neural Network! :-)

S.

Simon Bolingbroke

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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Oh my God! It gets worse....

Don't I mean "substituted Sarah for Sandra"?

Sandra Harrell [SysOp]

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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JIm:

You don't tell them what company you work for - they get it from your
IP address and the domain you logged in from.

Christopher Mann

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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The one way to get around that is anonymizer(sp?). it masks your IP and
domain.
I was over at L0PHT's page the other day and say an interesting .gif. Had a
picture of the eye on the dollar bill and had the following caption"

1984 - We're behind Schedule

National Security Agnecy

If anyone wants it, send me an email.. I'll send it off to you..

Christopher Mann

Sandra Harrell [SysOp] wrote in message ...

>JIm:
>
>You don't tell them what company you work for - they get it from your
>IP address and the domain you logged in from.
>

Jim Henderson [SysOp]

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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Well, then order from home. IMO, business like that shouldn't be done
from work. :-)

Jim
--
Jim Henderson

Novell Support Connection Volunteer SysOp

Jim Henderson [SysOp]

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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Only if you order from work. As I pointed out to Shaun, IMO, that's not
the place to be ordering books from.

There are other avenues available, such as using an anonymizer.

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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What, there are people with *less* connectivity than those of us in the
back woods of Utah? <g>

(US West appears to think that we don't need fast connectivity out here)

For those who think they can/should do that sort of thing from work, the
anonymizer would be a way of getting around it. :-)

Jim
--
Jim Henderson

Novell Support Connection Volunteer SysOp

Sandra Harrell [SysOp]

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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Jim:

The Internet can be useful in many ways and I use it regularly to
search for information on various topics (your example is an excellent
use of the power of the Internet).

What I find disturbing is the trend towards collecting private details
(implied when using a secure site)of purchasing habits and making them
public - this is not good.

I am not trying to promote paranoia - just an awareness......as well as
evoke a discussion on one of the hottest topics these days - privacy.

Christopher Mann

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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paranoia \Par`a*noi"a\, n. (Med.)-A chronic form of insanity...usually by
delusions of persecution

In my case they aren't delusions...they really are out to get me...

Christopher Mann

Sandra Harrell [SysOp] wrote in message ...

>Jim:
>
>The Internet can be useful in many ways and I use it regularly to
>search for information on various topics (your example is an excellent
>use of the power of the Internet).
>
>What I find disturbing is the trend towards collecting private details
>(implied when using a secure site)of purchasing habits and making them
>public - this is not good.
>
>I am not trying to promote paranoia - just an awareness......as well as
>evoke a discussion on one of the hottest topics these days - privacy.
>

Simon Bolingbroke

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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Sandra,

....and I am continuing to agree with you wholeheartedly on this particular
issue (....following the development of the thread).

"Up Front" collation of information is OK.

"Sneaky" collation of information is Bad.

If an organisation intends to do it - Then Say So Loud and Clear!

Similarly, Organisations shouldn't assume the right by having "sneaky little
tucked away" check-boxes with crypto-english explanations which default to
permission given.

Sorry, one of my pet windmills,

Don Quixote de La Mancha

Bill Jones

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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The sad truth is that "sneaky" collection of information has been going on for
many years. I work for a market research company where we routinely get lists
of people to call (we do telephone surveys) where people have taken this list
and that list of information and put things together.

Anyone perchance a member of one of those supermarket "shopping clubs?" Those
little credit cards aren't there to save you money... they're to gather detailed
information about your shopping habits.

I think very little can be done about the power of the computer to process
information. It's easy enough to get several lists of seemingly unrelated
information and use a simple database to make lists that have much more impact.
Better solicitation laws are really the only solution -- though those two have
their problems in a globally connected world.

Simon Bolingbroke wrote:

--
Bill Jones (CNA)
Network Adminstrator
Communications Center, Inc.

Jim Henderson [SysOp]

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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It is definitely a big topic of discussion.

I think a big part of the problem, though, is that people don't
understand the power of information (and I'm referring to the great
unwashed masses in that regard).

Personally, I couldn't care less if Amazon used information like that to
say that I, as part of purchasing group "x" (from employer "x")
contributed to the purchase of this type of book. A big reason for that
is the intentional inaccuracy some people (present company included)
give to places that collect data like that. I view the data as
statistics, which are the third type of lie. :-)

Jim
--
Jim Henderson

Novell Support Connection Volunteer SysOp

Jim Henderson [SysOp]

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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Bill Jones wrote:
> Anyone perchance a member of one of those supermarket "shopping clubs?"

From the other side of the fence, actually - I work for a company that
owns several supermarket chains across the US. :-)

I've always viewed "customer loyalty cards" (as they are known in this
industry) as a double-edged sword. On the one hand, there is
information gathering going on.

On the other hand, it's anonymous information being gathered that better
helps the company stock the store with popular items - even more so than
standard inventory tracking can.

Just MHO - opinions are mine and mine alone, my employer doesn't know I
even have opinions. :-)

Sandra Harrell [SysOp]

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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Jim:

But Amazon is taking the information directly from your purchase order
(and, of course, your IP address). Should they be allowed to create
these public profile databases without your permission? I have signed
up for many news letters, registered software in databases (such as
with Microsoft and Novell) and there was ALWAYS a check box asking my
permission to use this data. By virtue of the fact that my data on
Amazon was collected via a secure site, privacy is implied and there
was no check box asking my permission to use my purchasing information
within profiles.

As we move forward with integrating use of the internet into our daily
lives, we must be aware of the dangers of the information we share. I
also believe that privacy needs to be respected/protected, first and
foremost, by those with whom we do business. Maybe we need new laws...

Sandra

Jim Henderson [SysOp]

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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The ones we use aren't attached to an address, AFAIK. :-)

Jim
--
Jim Henderson
Novell Support Connection Volunteer SysOp
http://support.novell.com/forums
(Sorry, support is not provided via e-mail)

Homepage at http://www.bigfoot.com/~jhenderson

Jim Henderson [SysOp]

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Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99

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Well, I don't disagree with asking permission to use information
volunteered to them - the question is when the IP address was
volunteered and whether it should be used or not.

There are cases that warrant it, such as when obtaining strong
encryption (because of the stupid laws in the US).

Ben A L Jemmett

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Aug 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/31/99

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> On the other hand, it's anonymous information being gathered that better
> helps the company stock the store with popular items - even more so than
> standard inventory tracking can.

Uhm - no it isn't, at least not with this (unbranded!!!!! honest!!!) card -
it has name, address on it and a unique customer number... It may be
useful, it may be mroe detailed than inventory tracking, but brother, it
ain't anonymous.

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Aug 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/31/99

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Mark:

See? These profiles DO give an impression of the particular company.

But that was an interesting interpretation of the profiles<g>

Sandra

Jim Henderson [SysOp]

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Aug 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/31/99

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Ah, that does make a difference. We do the savings at the register -
lots of companies over here do custom-printed coupons at the register on
the back of the receipt. Costs less than posting them.

Jim Henderson [SysOp]

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Aug 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/31/99

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Well, frequently, but....No, I'd better not go there. <G>

Christopher Mann

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Aug 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/31/99

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I thought this was rather interesting - given the stereotype of IT
professionals

Number 2 on Novells Video ordering list:

Tae-Bo Workout: Instructional and Basic ~ VHS

Christopher Mann

Mark Sydney wrote in message <37CC0A4B...@nospam.StateStreet.com>...
>There is a funny side though (ok, some isn't funny),
>
>According to the profile on the organisation I work for,
>
>There are people who are working too hard and don't know exactly what they
>are doing and talking about.
>
>A lot of the staff seem to enjoy reading novell's.
>
>and
>.
>.
>.
>have a look at the Microsoft one..
>
>The second hottest seller is titled:
>The Invisible Computer : Why Good Products Can Fail, the Personal Computer
>Is So Complex,
>and Information Appliances Are the Solution.
>
>
>Where Novell people seem to be looking at
>multi-threaded-java-enabled-directory-applications.
>ok so that's a stretch, but it is interesting.
>
>Of course, there is no proof that those people actually work for any
>organisations.
>
>Just for your own curiosity.. check the following link and choose your
>corp!:
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/browse-communities/-/226026/002-338
7007-9158002
>
>Mark Sydney
>
>
>

Ben A L Jemmett

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Aug 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/31/99

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> my company will post coupons to your house, based upon your spending
> (it works out at around 1%) - so we need your name and address :-)

If one doesn't spend anything, does one receive a letterbomb?

Ben A L Jemmett

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Aug 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/31/99

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> I thought this was rather interesting - given the stereotype of IT
> professionals
>
> Number 2 on Novells Video ordering list:

Ah, but you see, Novell people don't have as many bugs to fix as most other
software companies (I don't write buggy software myself, and anybody who
quotes my posts to the gem-dev mailing list at eGroups will die a severe and
painful death), therefore they have more free time to enjoy themselves. Or
something.

Shaun Pond

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Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99

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Jim,
but when we post them we include other coupons, to entice you to buy,
plus a small magazine...

KParris

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Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99

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On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 22:32:26 +0100, "Ben A L Jemmett"
<ben.REMOVE...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

>So, basically, I don't care what companies on I buy from or browse on the
>Internet know about me. I'm an induhvidual. Companies may not like their
>employee's being profiled in this way, but I've yet to have any complaints
>about profiling me personally. Of course, there's very little to know or
>want to know about me, so whatever...

You're young Ben, give it time.... you'll change your mind one day
<g>

-
Email address designed to foil spam-bots. Sentient beings will understand.

KParris

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Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99

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On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:57:31 -0600, "Jim Henderson [SysOp]"
<Jim.He...@SysOps.NSC> wrote:

>If you don't tell them the company you work for, they can't accurately
>profile the company. :-)

Or if you don't tell them all sorts of any other categories of
information, they can't profile that either. But we technologically
aware participants here are the minority - the millions of internet
service subscribers who just bought a PC from the discount chain store
don't have much of a clue what is going on in this area.

I think this is just one piece of a larger problem - the accumulation
of information in general about "people", some of it gathered
indirectly or by behind-the-scenes coordination of various other data
sources. The *major goof* on the part of Amazon lies in making it all
public - if they had kept their profile data internal, nobody would be
bothered quite so much.

I think this whole personal-data-grabbing strategy is all a Bad Thing,
since it has one, and exactly one, motivation - making more money for
the grabbER and providing zero benefits to the grabEEs. In the
specific case at hand, the employees of the profiled companies (nor
the companies, either) receive absolutely nothing of value, but Amazon
is hoping to profit by the publication of the profiles. What the
employees, and companies, DO receive is a rude invasion of privacy.
It would be poetic justice for Amazon's stock value to make a sudden
plummet, never to rise again. (Please note, I am neither an
Amazon.com stockholder, nor have I ever transacted any business with
them either.)

Oh yes, I know, the data-miners and the marketing types all have their
claims about how "we" the buying public are better served when the
marketers know more about us, but I do not buy that bunkum tale for a
nanosecond. ONLY the marketers are served - their databases don't do
me one red cent's worth of good, they just annoy me more and more with
their advertising.

Side-line related issue: I pay for my internet access service. Thus,
I pay for the facilities that enable the existence and functionality
of my email address. My email in-box is "private property". No one
has any right to send me anything of any commercial nature unless I
specifically contact them requesting it.

KParris

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Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99

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On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:53:38 +0100, Shaun Pond <sh...@sysop.nsc>
wrote:

>Jim,

>my company will post coupons to your house, based upon your spending
>(it works out at around 1%) - so we need your name and address :-)
>

>Shaun Pond
>Novell Support Connection SysOp
>

I saw a report somewhere about a woman who cancelled her store card
when she got a letter in the mail one day reminding her it was time to
buy more personal hygiene supplies of a monthly-need type.

Seems she wasn't too keen on the privacy invasion..... lots of people
are drawn to the use of store cards because a discount is tagged with
them as an inducement - but they are not usually told ahead of time
that everything they buy is logged with their name, to monitor one's
"lifestyle" based on supermarket buying patterns.

Shaun Pond

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Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99

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KParris,
OK I'll give you an example of my company's scheme. I've just receive
my statement and coupons. I have coupons I can exchange for £13 in
goods, or, because of a new scheme we've launched, get £26 worth of
services, like travel coupons. i also have coupons for fresh salad,
fresh mushrooms, breakfast cereals, fresh chicken, beer, and chocolate
biscuits - all bar the last, i buy frequently!

SMRickey

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Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99

to

Shaun:

Send the chocolate biscuits to me, please.<g>

Susan
Novell Support Connection
http://support.novell.com/forums/scfindex.htm to see a list of all
newsgroups available

SMRickey

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Sep 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/6/99

to

Pretty expensive biscuits. Nevermind. I'll go to Australia to get them,
instead. Shorter trip from here.<g>

Shaun Pond

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Sep 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/7/99

to

Susan,
I could send you the coupon, but of course you'd need to come over here to
redeem it <g>

kalpana...@gmail.com

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Jul 24, 2012, 2:47:12 AM7/24/12

to sandra....@sysops.nsc

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