Nottingham Hackspace is in danger of closing aka Rent Increases aka Membership fee increases

[Andrew Armstrong]

I guess everyone has seen tonight's email - aka rent increases meaning we run out of money. I asked if the trustees would post here but I am guessing not - I think it's still worth discussing :)

A brief summary; rent increases by £604 a month, one time back payment of £980.80. Unknown if there are other factors in money issues (lower membership amounts as a increase compared to CPI? lower membership intake? other factors or just rent?).

I'm a bit hard pressed figuring why there is no EGM about this - considering the hackspace may close I find this in itself extraordinary (hah!). The Trustees said they won't raise one themselves (although I can - but I don't know how many members we have! Email me if you're interested I guess?). I'll attend the next members meeting if I can to see how things are going then and stress this is something members should be able to discuss with the trustees directly and fairly.

I mainly asked about an EGM since the email lacks serious detail so assumed there would be one mentioned; making it all guesswork on what members should do or what the state of emergency is except it's imminent and here are some rent increase amounts and please run a workshop. I tried to find out some more. James pointed me to the Financial Records: https://wiki.nottinghack.org.uk/wiki/Category:Financials

Things I asked myself tonight with some rough answers; hopefully I'm not too far off here. I was going to email the trustees more and the accounts team but no reason for them not to answer here instead, rather then keeping it private :)

* What was the rent before the increase, how much will increases be year-on-year. June rent is the tune of £4,312.80, I assume later on it goes to £4,916.80 a 12% increase? Quite a jump for sure.

* How long will finances last if they were essentially set in stone. Projecting is hard; but June finances suggest -2,287.26 a month, with additional £604 a month increase is -2,891.26 outgoing - so against money around 9K it's 3ish months (noting some things with June being a higher negative due to things like legal fees that presumably won't be permanent and apparently we used 10x the amount of electricity since May? Weird).

* What do members pay now (on average; mean, median, maximum etc.) - there isn't a clear listing of how many members we do have anywhere, I made a guess that with 129 needed at the last AGM we have 645 paying members as of 2018, presumably a few more this year but assume the lowest case it's averaging £6.73 each (mean). I notice a drop off April-May to June, presumably because people cancelled due to the snackspace charging changes (Although April was up on March, again seasonal changes?). I realise some members keep a low running payment but don't attend - knowing what active members pay is something only HMS guys would be able to figure out I guess (not for name calling but for knowing an active member average, those using the space).

* What would be a suggested increase that would help be. Ignoring the one-time payment, if my guess above is 12% then it'd be that on average? so if half the people ignore it/don't see the email 24% or more would be needed? Would a fiver a month each more do?

* How many members are we increasing by and would this cover some of the shortfall? Generally membership has been increasing (and utilising the new space well) but is it going up? down? Enough to cover inflation at least?

The problem with the month-by-month is plotting seasonal changes, splitting out necessities versus optionals, seeing how much a % snackspace (which presumably includes the laser - what % though?), and how much seriously is brought in by the average workshop to the space (how many would we need to consistently run? June had £211 in workshop money - how many were there though?).

I'd also hazard a guess while the membership as a majority may want to continue pay-as-you-want, the fact that if the threat is either close the space or pay a floored fee, most would choose the latter option. It's been stated as such in past AGMs when finances were not as tight. There is also some options you could table for people who come in less often or who are unable to pay the minimum with a pool of subsidies offered (student rates, unemployed etc. - which could be self-selecting). I am only suggesting this option while contentious needs discussion and not be ignored until the last second. It also could be phased in (although if there was more time that'd be easier).

We also have repeatedly heard at meetings how hard it is for members to gauge what to pay - and it is usually "set in stone" at inception since it is harder to sort a bank balance change then a direct debit one. Some possible thoughts on this;

* Guidance for new members - knowing a nice baseline, eg: £10 a month, so we don't have to do this every few years. Note clearly that the amount can be changed and may have to grow with inflation or use of the space etc.

* Add some more VERY easy way to donate extra in case you are a rarely attending member or make use of something and want to pay a donation without cash. Advertise the paypal account to throw money at or some QR code posted around to use on Apple Pay or Google Pay or something people can do without logging into their bank. Bringing cash in every time for people to put in tins isn't easy enough I think! I rarely carry cash myself nowadays.

* A way to see what percentile you are in payment wise on HMS or otherwise; or some kind of summary of where your money goes yearly (like a tax breakdown) suggesting that members fees pay for more than just rent - since it covers maintenance, tools, insurance, all the electricity, water, gas, and improvements to the space in general. Really sell the hackspace and what has been done directly to members! 2.5, the whole shebang! AGM is one place this could be summarised (later on by email too), but newsletters are rare and HMS could have news on it now if it was coded in so it's front and centre.

(BTW: HMS doesn't have a banner warning people about this - I'd add one if possible - more avenues for eyes the better, I bet email read rates are no where near 100%!).

* See how other hackspaces do it (as far as I know; by more members or a smaller space (ie no downstairs), or by charging a minimum/being a fabspace with other funding I think is generally how it is, or sometimes by larger sponsors or donators - do we have a "friend of the Hackspace" type donator/sponsor system where companies and rich fellows can help out? get their name on the website/in lights?)

* A donation drive - at least to cover that back pay and to put things on firmer ground even with increased members fees - with some kind of reward. Perhaps another mural with names at least?

One extreme option; I'd also love to know what the lease taken was for downstairs. If it costs too much, could we simply just move back upstairs? I'm not a legal expert so would like this option shot down with "either all of it stays or all of it goes" - it's not clear in the email this is the case except it's better overall to have one lease (and it's now been done). Very extreme though.

There is also if other things can be delayed or postponed - such as HS 2.5 downstairs renovations (although this exacerbates the fact we're paying for unused space).

I believe this increase in rent is nothing compared to the sheer change that going to the Bizspace in the first place was compared to the previous rent HS 1.0 paid and membership size at the time. The members worked hard then to sort this out; and many increased payments to help. Would be nice to hear from people then what was done and if any of the work could apply again.

Hope this email isn't too negative and contains a lot of positive - I think the amount per month can be covered by members reasonably easily but a sudden crash email may raise questions on why this wasn't raised at last years AGM or by earlier correspondence (so people could ramp up payments earlier if nothing else :) ) especially since nothing was mentioned before the Trustee elections where new trustees put their own name on the company name.

Andrew

[Dan Spencer]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for posting this. I've already replied to your Slack messages but I'll post my response here too for the benefit of those who don't use slack. The questions you've asked are all great and I'll do my best to get some answers together if noone beats me too it.

Side note to all members, if you didn't get the email please check your spam folder and let us know by emailing Trus...@nottinghack.org.uk and we will send it out to you directly.

----

Andrew, The trustees are trying hard to be open and honest about this whole situation. It has been discussed at length in every members meeting for the last few months. I'd hoped it wouldn't be a shock that this was coming as there have been some murmurs about the rent rising for a while and lots of chatter in the space recently about this issue.

The email we sent out a few weeks ago about the snackspace credit removal was just one step the trustees have taken so far to prevent us loosing even more money. Other things are happening too; our spending in the last couple of months is being watched closely, small price increases to snackspace have been authorised, loads more workshops are being planned/ run, we have spent time reviewing our low payers and we are now in the process of instructing the membership team to strongly recommend £15-£20 a month minimum to all new starters. (Formal comms on this have yet to be sent but they will be with the team before open day.)

I understand that a lot of people won't have seen any of this because the member's meetings aren't widely attended but we have been trying to remedy this too. The member's meetings have been published on Facebook and twitter recently but engagement has remained low. It's not even compulsory to be at the space to be involved in the meeting. Some members follow the minutes live on this slack in #meetingminutes and input into the meeting remotely. If you can't be at the meeting then you can still stay informed by reading the minutes and looking at the financial reports on the wiki.

There is only so much the trustees can do in isolation, we need the memberships' help to get our community back on track and hence all of the trustees agreed that we needed to send out urgent communications to raise awareness of this issue via our most powerful tool, email.

We've had 11 members respond to email so far this evening, many are very positive offers of genuine assistance. And I expect we will see many more in the morning. Some responses have been critical too but that is 100% OK. We will listen to all of the responses and use them to guide our decisions.

Regarding the inevitable requests to set a minimum payment, this was discussed at the trustees meeting on Tuesday and we are split on doing this, just as the rest of our membership are. If it comes to it, we will have a vote on implementing this but currently it isn't being considered. Please do not let this situation become a witch hunt for those members, the situation we are in is because of *all* our members. Average payments have been gradually falling for some time and the sudden increase in rent expense has brought that issue to the forefront. We cannot pin this on our most financially vulnerable members. One of our defining and greatest assets is that anyone can join and contribute to the Hackspace, regardless of what they earn. This financial crisis is about more than the 14 or so members that pay less than £5 and continue to visit the space regularly; this is about getting everyone to consider paying more or consider generating money for the space in other ways to get our financials back in order.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I have been in the space this evening running a CNC course that's generated £80 profit for the Hackspace. If more members did the same every month, we would soon reach the £600 goal.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as rude, I'm very glad you feel strongly about this issue. I do too 🙂 Let's not point fingers, instead let's move forward and make the space more awesome.

[Matt Lloyd]

Ok below are some of my answers to Andrews questions 

bare in mind I’m no longer a trustee and just answering as another member 

Matt

On 18 Jul 2019, at 23:20, Andrew Armstrong <and...@aarmstrong.org> wrote:

I guess everyone has seen tonight's email - aka rent increases meaning we run out of money. I asked if the trustees would post here but I am guessing not - I think it's still worth discussing :)

A brief summary; rent increases by £604 a month, one time back payment of £980.80. Unknown if there are other factors in money issues (lower membership amounts as a increase compared to CPI? lower membership intake? other factors or just rent?).

I'm a bit hard pressed figuring why there is no EGM about this - considering the hackspace may close I find this in itself extraordinary (hah!). The Trustees said they won't raise one themselves (although I can - but I don't know how many members we have! Email me if you're interested I guess?). I'll attend the next members meeting if I can to see how things are going then and stress this is something members should be able to discuss with the trustees directly and fairly.

I mainly asked about an EGM since the email lacks serious detail so assumed there would be one mentioned; making it all guesswork on what members should do or what the state of emergency is except it's imminent and here are some rent increase amounts and please run a workshop. I tried to find out some more. James pointed me to the Financial Records: https://wiki.nottinghack.org.uk/wiki/Category:Financials

An EGM is only really needed if there is some need to make a Constitution change, and the rules around it a way stricter than the regular monthly meetings.

It takes 28 days notice to hold an EGM and then you need 20% of the members to attend to be quorate

The members meetings happen every month (the next one is in 19 days), they happen no matter how many members are there and they always have at least two trustees present

Things I asked myself tonight with some rough answers; hopefully I'm not too far off here. I was going to email the trustees more and the accounts team but no reason for them not to answer here instead, rather then keeping it private :)

* What was the rent before the increase, how much will increases be year-on-year. June rent is the tune of £4,312.80, I assume later on it goes to £4,916.80 a 12% increase? Quite a jump for sure.

That June figure is not our regular rent amount, (bizspace screwed up the rent collection in May so any figures for rent and electric in June and May should not be used)

Our rent per mont for F6 and G4,5,6 has been £2997.60 since February this year (This should be £55.20 more as bizspace have been under collecting on G4,5,6 since January)

Since we moved into Roden house, our rental has been via Licence agreements, which we have resigned each year for F6. For G4,5,6 we signed 5 consecutive yearly licences in 2016

Due to the 5 years of licences for G4,5,6 we have always know just how much the rent for that space would be in coming years, however for F6 we never knew before the renewal arrived just how much it would go up that year.

The G4,5,6 licences include an ~4% increase per year or ~£55 per month. Historically F6’s licence when up by around ~2% or ~£18 per month.

In February 2018 the F6 renewal arrived with a sudden 20% increase (£210 per month)

Not willing to take on the sudden jump in rent with out investigation the trustees started long talks back and fourth with bizspace and evenly our lawyer that lead to us trying to negotiate a long term lease over a yearly license.

I’m not going to try and cover all the legal difference of this but its all around ’Security of Tenure’ and knowing just what the increase would be per year.

But the big fear with keeping the status quo of just resigning licenses was we would have no idea if the F6 rent would again just jump another 20% (or even more) in the next year and we also had no idea how much the rent for G4,5,6 would jump at the end of the standing 5 year licences we have in place

After a year of work we finally got an offer of a 5 year lease with a 4% increase per year, start date of 1st June 2019 and security of tenure.

So we now know what are rent will be per month for the next 5 years, here’s a breakdown

June>May	Rent per month	Increase of year before
2019-2020	£3,350.00
2020-2021	£3,484.00	£134.00
2021-2022	£3,623.36	£139.36
2022-2023	£3,768.29	£144.93
2023-2024	£3,919.03	£150.73

So £3350 under lease vs £2997.60 today, yes that’s a ~12% jump, but we also already suffered a increase in rent on F6 since February.

Due to the extended time in trying to sort of the Lease, bizspace automatically increased the rent by £252 a month, a 23% jump

The difference between todays rent and the lease is £352.4 + the £252 increase from February has us at the £604 

The £980.90 back rent payment is made of two parts, uncollected rent on G4,5,6 for 5 months (Jan>May, 5 * £55.2 = £276) and difference in rent between licences and Lease for two months (Jun>Jul,  2 *  £352.40 = £704.80)

* How long will finances last if they were essentially set in stone. Projecting is hard; but June finances suggest -2,287.26 a month, with additional £604 a month increase is -2,891.26 outgoing - so against money around 9K it's 3ish months (noting some things with June being a higher negative due to things like legal fees that presumably won't be permanent and apparently we used 10x the amount of electricity since May? Weird).

As said by other this has all been covered in the members meeting over the last 3-4 months but i’ll go over it again here anyway.

Averaged over the last 12 months the space has been loosing ~£660 per month the lease adds £352.40 to that so ~ £1000 a month

Our current assets as end of June was £9,954.79.

Our fixed outgoings (after lease) are ~£5000, 

So we need to keep ~£5k in the bank to cover outgoings and are current loss is ~£1k, that gives us 4 months before we cannot cover the outgoings

Now these are very very rough numbers

* What do members pay now (on average; mean, median, maximum etc.) - there isn't a clear listing of how many members we do have anywhere, I made a guess that with 129 needed at the last AGM we have 645 paying members as of 2018, presumably a few more this year but assume the lowest case it's averaging £6.73 each (mean). I notice a drop off April-May to June, presumably because people cancelled due to the snackspace charging changes (Although April was up on March, again seasonal changes?). I realise some members keep a low running payment but don't attend - knowing what active members pay is something only HMS guys would be able to figure out I guess (not for name calling but for knowing an active member average, those using the space).

Current member count (694) has been available at https://cacti.nottinghack.org.uk/graph_view.php for a good while and is also usually reported in the monthly members meeting

Total income form the current membership would be £5008.63 a month (this is form HMS DB based on the last amount paid by each current member)

Now what we see per month in the bank is never quite what the HMS DB reports. this is mostly because of the first or last day of a month falling on a weekend and banks done xfer on weekends, also membership turns over ever day (eg new members joining and ex leave)

So trying to compare it month by month on the finance report can literally change based on the day of the week

Of our current 694 members 405 have not attended the space in the last 3 months lets call them inactive members (just for a moment), 289 did lets call them active members

Total
Count	694
Total Income	£5,008.63
Average	£7.22
Min	£0.01
Max	£75.00
Median	£5.00

Inactive
Total Income	£2,395.64
Average	£5.92
Min	£0.01
Max	£35.00
Median	£5.00
Active
Total Income	£2,611.99
Average	£9.10
Min	£1.00
Max	£75.00
Median	£10.00

* What would be a suggested increase that would help be. Ignoring the one-time payment, if my guess above is 12% then it'd be that on average? so if half the people ignore it/don't see the email 24% or more would be needed? Would a fiver a month each more do?

No idea but if we take the very very rough numbers from above, our shortfall of ~£1000 a month and our current membership of 694

£1000 / 694 = £1.44

So yeah if half our membership could increase there payment by £3 each that would be cool.

But members fee’s are only one way to go, workshops have been know to bring in anything from £80 to £200 per event

If we could get members to help run just 2 workshops a month which bring in say £150 each that’s a 3rd of our shortfall

* How many members are we increasing by and would this cover some of the shortfall? Generally membership has been increasing (and utilising the new space well) but is it going up? down? Enough to cover inflation at least?

We have been average about 5 member growth per month for years now.

With an average of £7.22 that’s about £36.10 more each month

The problem with the month-by-month is plotting seasonal changes, splitting out necessities versus optionals, seeing how much a % snackspace (which presumably includes the laser - what % though?), and how much seriously is brought in by the average workshop to the space (how many would we need to consistently run? June had £211 in workshop money - how many were there though?).

I'd also hazard a guess while the membership as a majority may want to continue pay-as-you-want, the fact that if the threat is either close the space or pay a floored fee, most would choose the latter option. It's been stated as such in past AGMs when finances were not as tight. There is also some options you could table for people who come in less often or who are unable to pay the minimum with a pool of subsidies offered (student rates, unemployed etc. - which could be self-selecting). I am only suggesting this option while contentious needs discussion and not be ignored until the last second. It also could be phased in (although if there was more time that'd be easier).

We also have repeatedly heard at meetings how hard it is for members to gauge what to pay - and it is usually "set in stone" at inception since it is harder to sort a bank balance change then a direct debit one. Some possible thoughts on this;

* Guidance for new members - knowing a nice baseline, eg: £10 a month, so we don't have to do this every few years. Note clearly that the amount can be changed and may have to grow with inflation or use of the space etc.

* Add some more VERY easy way to donate extra in case you are a rarely attending member or make use of something and want to pay a donation without cash. Advertise the paypal account to throw money at or some QR code posted around to use on Apple Pay or Google Pay or something people can do without logging into their bank. Bringing cash in every time for people to put in tins isn't easy enough I think! I rarely carry cash myself nowadays.

* A way to see what percentile you are in payment wise on HMS or otherwise; or some kind of summary of where your money goes yearly (like a tax breakdown) suggesting that members fees pay for more than just rent - since it covers maintenance, tools, insurance, all the electricity, water, gas, and improvements to the space in general. Really sell the hackspace and what has been done directly to members! 2.5, the whole shebang! AGM is one place this could be summarised (later on by email too), but newsletters are rare and HMS could have news on it now if it was coded in so it's front and centre.

(BTW: HMS doesn't have a banner warning people about this - I'd add one if possible - more avenues for eyes the better, I bet email read rates are no where near 100%!).

* See how other hackspaces do it (as far as I know; by more members or a smaller space (ie no downstairs), or by charging a minimum/being a fabspace with other funding I think is generally how it is, or sometimes by larger sponsors or donators - do we have a "friend of the Hackspace" type donator/sponsor system where companies and rich fellows can help out? get their name on the website/in lights?)

* A donation drive - at least to cover that back pay and to put things on firmer ground even with increased members fees - with some kind of reward. Perhaps another mural with names at least?

One extreme option; I'd also love to know what the lease taken was for downstairs. If it costs too much, could we simply just move back upstairs? I'm not a legal expert so would like this option shot down with "either all of it stays or all of it goes" - it's not clear in the email this is the case except it's better overall to have one lease (and it's now been done). Very extreme though.

There is also if other things can be delayed or postponed - such as HS 2.5 downstairs renovations (although this exacerbates the fact we're paying for unused space).

I believe this increase in rent is nothing compared to the sheer change that going to the Bizspace in the first place was compared to the previous rent HS 1.0 paid and membership size at the time. The members worked hard then to sort this out; and many increased payments to help. Would be nice to hear from people then what was done and if any of the work could apply again.

Hope this email isn't too negative and contains a lot of positive - I think the amount per month can be covered by members reasonably easily but a sudden crash email may raise questions on why this wasn't raised at last years AGM or by earlier correspondence (so people could ramp up payments earlier if nothing else :) ) especially since nothing was mentioned before the Trustee elections where new trustees put their own name on the company name.

Andrew

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[James Hayward]

I'm glad that we are finally talking about this, thank you to the trustees (and Andrew) for getting out on front of this.

I don't have much to add, except that we should be careful with minimum payments. I might have remembered this incorrectly, and Matt can correct me if I have, but I think that is we have a minimum then membership payments get treated differently from a tax perspective (they are currently tax free) so might not be a good thing.

We recently talked about, and dismissed, having levels of membership. And whilst workshops bring in money, it has to be membership payments that increase imo.

Like Andrew said, it would be good to see a breakdown of our income/expenditure in an easily shareable way. Maybe we can bring back the cost of hacking poster? It was manual when I last did it, so took a few hours sat with Matt to create it, but wasn't difficult. Since then we have obsessed about automating it and never actually made another!

J

J

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[D Spence]

I think we need to look at this as an opportunity. The rent is more because we expanding. Lets advertise and get more members!

 We need each member to up there contribution by, lets say £2 each. 

More workshops are good. especially the ones that attract the general public. we could have a workshop every day!

could we set up a co-working space? the space is empty during the daytime.

could we provide services?

We have a lot of untapped potential. we are barely in 2nd gear.

We should avoid a "purge the poor" approach. Our openness is our strength!

Lets brainstorm and get the money rolling in!

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[Andrew Armstrong]

Thank you very much Matt for the informative response! I couldn't find on the wiki some of that (and month by month as you say is off and doesn't explain weirdness with rent and member meeting minutes were very short on detail). It's good to know I wasn't an order of magnitude off at least.

I noticed there is still a reasonably bit of snackspace deficit too, I wonder if this could be used to check how many as a % of people have paid up, since that % may now be the amount who would actively alter their payments (others having missed emails or not come in and talked to anyone or seen posters if there are any, or just will leave it since they're not coming in often). Inactive membership must be a bigger problem of course regarding communications given the 2nd AGM last year!

Also thanks Dan glad other things are being done wish more of that was in the email. Especially the suggested amounts - I'd say £15 or £20 for active membership would be a good thing. Such suggestions would have been good years ago and in the email I ge trustees sent out ("we would suggest based on running costs £15 or more for people who attend the space"). Certainly Matts figures back up that (with £9 average for active but we need it higher right now). Workshop's are time consuming (and there are limited weekends/good evenings) so doesn't seem like a consistent way to bridge the gap going back some months where there are none at all and if it becomes a necessity becomes someone's "2nd job". I know it burnt out a few previous people who did them often.

EGM etc. Is obviously mainly for constitution changes but in this case a frank talk about the need for imminent donations and increases in a recorded format (for remote members) may help raise awareness if nothing else (the last AGM done with heavy comms shows people are interested and will make it). I guess otherwise we'll have the next AGM to do it at! Although I will try and come to the next members meeting to see if I can help. Matts figures are much more scary about the dangerous rent increase and how members currently pay. I think given the growing membership deficit if not much changes this month then a EGM a month after before the space is just closed up would be worth it.

If a least a further email in a few weeks to remind and/or update people may be good too (see: well attended AGM comms)

I agree with James H and others a floor for payments is dangerous (especially if taxes are involved) and hopefully unnecessary. I'd still be interested in how other spaces tackle this though. Any ideas? Maybe they have other revenue?

Andrew

[Derek Spencer]

I have read the recent e mails regarding the current financial position of the Hackspace and as a very new member, I feel overwhelmed by the detail and complexity involved. So my response will perhaps be seen as simplistic,by those who know the history and have worked so hard to build an amazing organisation.

I don’t feel qualified to make proposals but I thought a few points about how this looks to a “newby” might be helpful .

 1.This is a welcoming and friendly community full of creative people with a wide range of skill sets. 

2. The culture for co-working, sharing skills and helping each other was evident as soon as I walked through the door and the potential to expand this has become more clear in the few weeks since I joined. 

3. The fact that this has been achieved by committed members (some of whom must spend an enormous amount of their time on it) was difficult to comprehend at first but  I think it is the strength which has got Hackspace this far and will ensure it continues.

4.The somewhat gloomy picture I have now picked up in the recent e-mails has been tempered by the expertise put into the search for solutions from all contributors. 

5. One of the e-mails suggested that increasing costs are in part due to expansion. So if the majority of members support this plan costs will inevitably rise. It seems to me that expansion will help to make better use of the space available.

So my personal view is that financial stability is not a end in itself but the means to achieve this common goal.

Sorry if all this sounds like a statement of the bleedin’ Obvious. My experience of working in a range of different organisations is that sometimes the obvious needs restating.

Derek.

Ps I have a few hours to spare to help with preparations for the open day tonight and am free all day tomorrow , if anyone wants help with anything please e-mail me with suggestions.

PPs On the ,starting monthly payments issue. I have started out at £ 10 per month, not  because I can’t afford more but because I don’t know how much or how little I will want to use the space. I anticipate increasing this as my level of use increases. In the mean time I WOULD  be happy to make a one off contribution to a “ Save the space “ fund.

PPs I have some thoughts on developing a Small gallery space within the unit which could attract visitors and may have potential for raising funds from groups wishing to exhibit. I would be keen to talk about this with others who may be interested. 

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[D Spence]

well put Derek. I fully agree

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[garethhowell]

Hi Derek

I'd be interested in the possibility of a gallery space. Could you start another thread on here?

Thanks

Gareth

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[Jon Woodcock]

[x-post from Slack]

I'm with James H in that it's my opinion that the regular money in should equal the regular money out with workshops being a top up rather than an essential. Due to personal circumstances I hardly get to the space at all, but I continue to support it because I think the space should exist.

We are a broad group and that's great, but we need to be prepared between us to pay for the space if we want it. I'm sure there are lots of members like me who have paid the same amount for years. Even an inflationary increase would help this situation a lot.

And just in case I've given the wrong impression, I think it's vital that we let some folks pay a negligible fee because of their circumstances, but that people who really benefit from the space should be prepared to pay more when they can. £3 extra per month is a meal to some but just a froth coffee to others. There should be enough of us amongst the ~700 members in the latter category that this whole thing should really go away.

Right... I'm off to put my membership up.

Jon

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[Rave Pants]

Can't offer much in the way of comments as there have been many good ones already, but as a silent member that hasn't used the space for a long time I've just doubled my payment.

We can't afford to loose such a great resource. 

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[Dan Spencer]

That's excellent, thank you so much Jon and Kai!

I'm so happy that the email is prompting these conversation that need to happen.

I can shed some light on Snackspace situation Andrew. Here is a graph showing the total amount of debt and credit since the space started tracking it back in 2012. You can see almost exactly the day that we turned off the credit allowance last month at the far right of the graph, there is obviously still a long way to go recouping this money but we are making good progress. Unfortunately I can't tell you what % of members have paid their balance though as that data isn't reported by the system.

In all this talk it is super important that we all remember to go the bank, pick up the phone or go online to adjust our standing orders upwards. I've just done mine. And you're absolutely right about calling an EGM if not much changes this month; it will have to be done. I am remaining positive about this though, all the right conversations are happening.

[James Hayward]

Being one of the people perpetually in debt to snackspace, but also the person that implemented the credit limit in the first place, I think worrying about it is the wrong thing.

I get that the trustees have removed the ability, and that is obviously their call, but throughout the time we have had it, it hasn't really been a problem. Like a credit card it is a rolling credit facility, so whilst a point in time might look bad, on the whole it allows the space to make more money.

I can completely understand that we don't want the level of risk anymore, but let's focus on money coming in regularly rather than the temporary increase we will get from this. We are likely to have the same overall level of income through snackspace/laser once people have reset their debts.

J

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[Edward Podgorski]

Problem is James H some people ran up credit and left with unpaid debts, which we are unlikely to ever recover. The system did not allow for that and I think its around the £500 mark. (I may stand corrected on the figure) 

[Dan Spencer]

That's about right Eddie.

We also had situations where we filled up the vending machine with £600 or so of cans and food and saw little to no return on that before pouring another £600 in because people leave the debt on their cards. The money wasn't making its way into our account as quickly as it needed to.

You are right though, we shouldn't dwell on snackspace debt. That has been resolved, more important is increasing the average payment :)

[James Hayward]

That is horrible news! As I said, completely your decision and I support it.  Just don't want us getting distracted here by it, as it will look like a much better cashflow for a couple of months!

Also, I should probably pay my debt off, but it is such a ballache! Maybe now that HMS 2 is live I will have a look at the card payment thing again.

J

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[James Hayward]

One thing that we might want to think about is charging for tools.

At the moment we have a hybrid solution where just the laser is charged for, and brings in a lot of money for the space, but is this the right thing to do?

We originally did this to fund the running costs of the laser, but it has proven that the running costs are not significantly more than the other big tools.

Maybe all big tools should be charged for?

Or maybe we should remove the cost from the laser and communicate that usage costs should be met by the membership payment, as they are with all the other tools.

Maybe a little calculator on HMS that estimates what you should pay for last month - takes into account your tool usage, trips into the space, etc plus whatever you want your "extra" to be?

Just some thoughts.

J

[D Spence]

i do think we should rfid track certain tools. like the ones that are always breaken (bandsaw,thickenizer et al ) but i think charging members" to use a screwdriver "  isnt the hackspace way.  we are talking about an extra £2 to £3 per member per month. as has been stated most of our members are passive. We should be enticing them to become active members again not squeezing  the active members with tool tax..

the hackspace is funded by the goodwill of its member.  we do need to raise the income but we must do it ethically .

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[Sam Roberts]

I don't see any mileage in mandating a minimum contribution but I think more guidance is a good way to go. Partly because it's just fundamentally hard to pick a number for "what the space is worth" out of the air, but also because people tend to round numbers off when estimating. Then, having picked a round number, they won't change it unless they feel like a significant change is needed (e.g., they'll increase from £5 to £10, but not £6.12 to £6.97). It's silly but so are most aspects of human behaviour (no offence intended to my fellow humans).

From the numbers posted by Matt (thanks Matt) "active" members probably need to pay around £11 a month on average to keep the space afloat. I'll bet a lot of members estimated that the a reasonable contribution was roughly a tenner a month (±10%) when they signed up. And that's not a bad guess when picking a number out of the air. (It's exactly what I did when I signed up...)

Without reason to think about how small the margins will be, no one is going to choose a number within ±20% of £10, instead of just plumping for £10.

Publishing a regular (say quarterly) report showing:

• Average monthly cost
• Average member contribution
• Average visits per month 

Would give people information that would allow them to make a more informed choice. Partly for the people who are unwittingly underpaying by a large amount, but mainly for the presumably many people who are just down by a smidgen.

I would be interested to see a report on the number of members paying more than £5 a month who don't pay a multiple of £5! :p

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[Matt Lloyd]

£5.07	1
£6.00	16
£7.00	7
£7.50	13
£7.99	1
£8.00	12
£11.00	2
£12.00	10
£12.50	7
£13.00	2
£17.50	1

Matt

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[Gideonmack]

Hi all,

I've just read through this thread and found it very interesting, I was a member for over 2 years paying £20 a month (a figure I chose because it was about the same as a gym membership) but cancelled this at the end of May due to a general lack of finances and time. It didn't even occur to me that I could pay £5.00 a month and continue to be a member I will amend my standing order.

My partner works in fundraising and marketing for a local charity and we had a chat this morning about the funding situation at hackspace. If I understand correctly cashflow is the main issue as expenses are projected to be higher than income, there's also the secondary issue of a lack of reserve funding to cover one-off costs. The goal then should be to increase regular income by increasing membership numbers (and possibly the size of individual contributions) but also it would be prudent to have a cushion of reserve funding in case of emergency. She suggested a few different options;

1. How about a crowdfunder.  - Stonebridge recently had quite a lot of success with this option in similar circumstances

 - We could offer some trinket like a laser-cut keychain for small donations, one-to-one skill sessions for larger donations (£50 gets you a beginners welding session or something) and maybe free gift year of membership or something
- this would plug a temporary funding gap but also likely increase awareness of the space leading to more membership, thus helping cashflow going forward

2. I'm not sure if there's much engagement with Nottingham Fixers but it seems to me that we should be at every session, their goals are strongly aligned with ours and there will be a significant crossover in interest, could be a place to find new members. I vaguely know Sarah who organises it and would be happy to chat with her about it.

3. Has anyone spoken to Backlit? They're only across the road, I'm sure some of their artists would be interested in using the space, either for themselves, for filming, or for workshops.

4. We could approach NCVS or other local volunteering groups, there may people interested in using the space for charitable groups, CALM, MIND, and a few others are specifically interested in making things, they may be able to pay to run workshops as outside providers.

5. As has been mentioned, I think guidance around use and support is essential and will increase engagement of the current membership, I used the space to build a portfolio for what became my career in woodworking but I never knew if I was overpaying or underpaying, I didn't know it was even possible to be in debt to snackspace until that controversy was revealed recently, I was always surprised when new tools arrived or useful tools disappeared - you could say I was disengaged but as much as I love the space I never really felt welcome or encouraged to use it. I would say that transparency is the solution here - I was unsure about money, if I knew the financial figures that I've read today I would have felt better about that. I wasn't aware of what was going on at the space - a newsletter or similar could have filled that gap since I am not regularly available. Word of mouth will increase membership if every member feels that they can recommend hackspace. In the early days I brought a few people along who became members but I've been finding it harder to recommend the space recently as I've become less engaged myself.

As I said at the start of this post, I had recently cancelled my membership (I will be renewing it for a smaller donation but £5 is better than nothing) ultimately the decision to walk away was made for me after the third time I'd found a free evening to come to hackspace and use some of the tools unavailable to me at work and found them all broken, in use, or missing. I realised that I was paying £20 a month to occasionally use a lathe, when I could pay £20 a month to Axminster and buy a lathe. 

Enough rambling I think.

Dylan

[Lee Hutchison]

I feel that publishing a table of suggested monthly contributions is the way forward.  Probably a suggested amount for a few levels of usage (eg. Less than 3 visits a year, 3-12 visits a year, 1+ visit per month, or something similar).  This would then provide a useful starting point for members to work out what they should pay.  

I've no idea if I'm currently underpaying or overpaying. I'd hate to be inadvertently ripping the hackspace off, and I believe many other members feel the same. 

Also, i feel this needs to be done sooner rather than later whilst we are all aware and discussing the issue.  

[Oliver Smith]

Whilst I believe that increasing monthly contributions is probably the best way forward as a temporary measure, we are missing a longer term plan, which is membership gain.

Some of this has been partially addressed by open days, and having accidentally stumbled upon yesterday's as I went in to catch up with some work, I was thoroughly pleased with the turnout and interest it provoked.

However, despite this I feel more effort is needed for recruitment. I reflect on the fact that I had been looking a place to do woodwork for a fair while before coming across hackspace. The only reason I eventually found out about it was due to the mention of it from my ex partner, who was an architecture student at that time. I've since met a few more architects at hackspace on my visits, and due to the nature of their degree the space works well for them (though the uni does provide their own woodwork/modelwork facilities). Essentially the communication for them is all word of mouth, which is fine in some respects, but limits how far this spreads.

The demographics we have a quite broad, but the greatest draw will be to people who are creative, who don't have much space, who have limited income, (or at least not enough to buy thousands of pounds of equipment). These people will usually be in the immediate to slightly distal vicinity. So we are looking at students a and young professionals as a likely large proportion to draw from.

Having lived in the Lace Market, and Sneinton area for the past 4 years, and Radford Prior to that I am yet to see any advertising for Hackspace, or anything that alludes to it. Maybe I have just missed this, but I guess that's my point. I feel the presence of this space really needs to be felt among these groups and these areas, even if it is just flyers in coffee shops/student union. There is also the option of a university society if it doesnt exist already, and with two universities Hacksoc could have a decent draw, and I believe we have enough people in unis to allow for this and be ambassadors for the hackspace. Once again, this may be something I have missed having not been a student for 5 years.

Then there are the options of internet boards. I know that places like reddit have it's own Nottingham subreddit with over 5,000 members. Yes we've had posts about us on there before, but the last was over 3 years ago.

If we can just show ourselves a bit more it may be enough to help with this current problem. I would be devastated if this space were lost, though I don't get to use it much, when I do it's a welcome way to relax, unwind and be creative, which can really help at times of stress.

[Andrew Walters]

As we don’t reach many members by email and social media, AGM experience would say maybe 150 pay attention on our communication channels.

I would advocate if you are reading this to bump up your subs significantly if we are to save the Hackspace 10 quid at least if you can possibly afford it. whatever you are currently paying, vast majority of members will not get the message. it will be way cheaper to save the space that start a new one.

Let’s think of it in stages, get us though to end of the year and take stock at November AGM over time with strong messaging we can see the wider membership take up more of the slack.

Right now, looking at the numbers the time we have, knowing how difficult it is to engage with wider membership, likely a small proportion of active members will have to bail the Hackspace out.

Although I agree with Matt on EGM, a Town hall style meeting with non binding conclusions. as we have done before for 2.5 issues. Would surely help raise awareness and our finances

[Andrew Walters]

To be clear, subs up by 10 quid, doubling what most regulars are paying to 20.( if you can afford it)

[Arthur Moore]

Hi everyone,

- I do not see any point in having AGM, EGM or any other meeting, because only the few committed people attend.  The message that we are in trouble on finance needs to go to all members.

- I understand why some members do not want a fixed charge with all the complications of how to manage those who need to pay a discounted rate, but I think the Trustees should set a recommended minimum monthly payment and communicate that to all members.  Lots of people are clearly not reading slack, or the web site.  If we think that members ignore emails as well then the only other option is old-fashioned post.  Not just a blanket "Please pay a bit more", but a clear "For Hackspace to survive members need to pay £xx per month.  If you are unwaged and cannot pay this then we are happy that you pay what you can, but for everyone else please pay at least the amount we have recommend so that the Trustees are able to pay the bills.  Otherwise the Space will close".

- Probably my fault, but I am still not completely clear what will be the annual bill for running the space this year?  Could one of the Trustees please advise and confirm what is our current membership?  Is it roughly 650?   If we do ask for more money probably some of the least active members  will leave (10% ?), so our minimum contribution (except for those who cannot afford it) needs to be something like (annual running cost / 12 / 600) * 1.1 for contingencies.

 - Courses, one-off events, inductions, snackspace income should be on top of members monthly payments and allow us to have money to keep the space evolving.  It should not be relied upon to pay the core bills.

- More active members would be great, but growing the membership will not happen quickly.  It is a lot of effort by members who are already doing other things in the space (e.g.the effort everyone put in who supported the open day) and there may be costs (advertising). The funding issue needs to be tackled now by getting a proper income from existing members.  

Those are my thoughts.

Arthur

[D Spence]

A lot of good points Arthur.

I agree we need to do a mailshot to reach those hard to contact members ( assuming we have there addresses) I think a membership push is also needed. More members are needed to spread the load. We seem to gain members by magic. We don't really try. I think If we did some proper advertising we could attract a lot of new members. we have a lot to offer to a wide range of people.

Things that woulden't cost much.  If we all took some flyers and put them up at our local library,workplace,supermarket.micro pub etc.

Do we have a "save the hackspace" poster. we could put them up as well. 

 I am surprised we dont have posters up in the space already  this is an existential threat we are facing

I would offer to design a poster but i have too much on my plate as it is. Plus we have lots of graphic design experts as members...

An update from the trustees would be great. Im sure many members have already upped there contributions. 

What budget can we spare for advertising?

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[Andrew Armstrong]

Posters should be in the space, I'm surprised they're not! I'll attend the next members meeting to see how things are going but may try and get in and get a set of posters up too.

Right now a single email is not enough, it needs Facebook posts, HMS, wiki and login screen site banners if we can, main website update/news article and banner, to get as many casual eyes as possible. People sometimes just book a laser slot or read a tool guide, or login for the codes to get in.

Trustees how is it going sorting these forms of communications out? :-) need any help?

Also responding to those who say no EGM or whatever is needed; that's only true if people in general see the commucation and take it seriously. It'll fall down to a big meeting in the end if not enough people do up fees (tbh it'll at least hit the AGM if nothing else). The last AGM had great attendance and in person Q&A was a lot easier to get people raising concerns or hearing out options. Same with the 2.5 hackspace meeting which kicked a lot more activity off even if the meeting itself wasn't anything "special". You'd be surprised who would turn up give the space may close! (especially since many may not be here reading these good suggestions and want to know how they can help with trustees facilitating the best options they prefer).

Andrew

[Kate Bolin]

I have to say, I’m hearing a lot of “you should” and not a lot of “I will”.

I know some of you are coming up with ideas and bless you for that, but there ain’t gonna be a magical communications fairy floating down from above with free flyers and perfectly written emails. (For one thing I’m way too fat to be doing wire work.)

You think you know what needs to be done? START DOING IT.

I didn’t ask anyone when I took a bunch of flyers to shops and cafes (I asked the staff there though). I didn’t ask when I stuck bookmarks in science books at the library and Waterstones (hell for all I know there might still be some there). I didn’t ask when I told people about events (shit, people, you wanna post on reddit? The New Post button is RIGHT THERE).

A lot of you know me. Heck, for a lot of you, I probably gave you your first tour around the space. And you know how you get things done in the space? You go and do them!

Sure, you might screw up, but if you follow the general Hackspace rules, and don’t be a jerk about it, people will get over it.

So you wanna see something happen? DO IT.

(Just don’t ask me to do that much. I did my time.)

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Kate Bolin
www.katebolin.com

[Arthur Moore]

Hi Kate,

OK - fair comment.

I will volunteer to help to stuff and stamp envelopes -  if the Trustees will write to all members telling us what we need to pay to cover the running costs of the Space.

Arthur

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[Lee Hutchison]

Hi Kate

I'd happily create and put up posters showing suggested donations etc., but do I really have the authority to start telling members what to donate?  And on behalf of the Hackspace?

And then if Andrew (sorry to single you out) also decides to create and put up posters with his idea of everybody increasing their contribution by £10, what then?  Do we just have a poster war against each other, and anyone else who follows their idea through?

I do totally get your point.  Making suggestions and expecting other people to see them through is nowhere as helpful as actually taking action.  But most of the suggestions above require some kind of green light from above before we can take action. I see a lot of passion and energy in the above posts so I'm pretty certain that most (if not all) of the contributors above would be more than happy to do the leg work for their ideas. 

Over the next couple of days I'll put some comms together and start doing what I can to implement my idea.  Once i have my stuff together I'll set up a separate post for any related discussion, hopefully this will stop my efforts from crowding this post. 

[Arthur Moore]

I agree Lee.

The Trustees need to take the important decision as to how much the majority of members need to pay and then the rest of us can contribute by designing poster, stuffing envelopes, etc., but we cannot proceed without the Trustees giving us a clear path.

Arthur

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[James Hayward]

I wanted to cover off something that was bought up earlier - having a recommended minimum payment.  This could easily be interpreted as being an actual minimum and have tax implications, but it wasn't that that caught my eye.

What caught my eye was the assumption that we might only lose 10% of members if we say that people should pay this unless they are "unwaged".

We know from Matt's emails that about 400 members are "inactive" (ish).  I think that we will lose a lot of these people, many of who are waged, if they suddenly get demands of increasing their fees. (I, for one, would seriously consider whether I still want to support the space!).

So let's say 50% of those inactive people go.  That leaves about 450 members.

Matt has already said earlier in this thread that the Hackspace needs ~£5000 a month to pay our fixed outgoings, but we all know that we do more than our fixed.  So let's call it £6000 a month to survive in an OK state.

So now you have £6000 / 450 = £13.33 per month from each member.

But some of those will be unwaged, and can't afford that. Let's say 100 of them decide that all they can afford is £5.  We now need to find £5500 from 350 members - £15.71 a month each.

But if we don't push a minimum, and those 200 inactive people stay, paying on average £5.92 (as per Matt's figures) then we have £1184 just from those people that would have left.

I think recommended minimums that take no account of the member's status will just backfire on us.  I think breaking down estimated costs for things you might do in the space would be much more effective - "you visit the space 3 times a month for about an hour each time?  That has a cost of £X".  "You use the woodworking area 1 time a month for an hour?  That has a cost of £Y", etc.  Basically, some guidance on how to set your Pay What You Think The Space is Worth payment

[Andrew Armstrong]

I'd rather keep this simple with any suggestions of minimums or guidance on what to pay. We've got 2-3 months so not enough time to educate everyone to do an more accurate estimate, and places like London who also have sent out this kind of email do have a guided minimum (I think £15) they can refer to which I feel we need to adopt. Dan suggests it will be put into new member guidance at least but current members could be sent this figure too.

Problem also with time using xx tool or yy resource is that even just coming on your laptop uses power, heat etc. and "rent" which is what is being short falled. Inactive people can and do already pay less and no doubt that'll stay the same in general. If there is no set fee anyone who wants to do the maths still can.

Andrew

[Kate Bolin]

Why am I hearing "We need the trustees"??

They're not the be-all and end-all of the space. I respect what they do, and they're doing a damn fine job of it, but, seriously, we're not infants, we don't have to keep running to Mummy and Daddy for permission to play outside.  Hell, in this thread alone, we have piles of information to work with.

Fine, okay, here, let me get my wire harness on. Apparently we *do* need the magical communications fairy.



Poster (requires some design work - it'd look great in a beautiful WWII style)

Every Little Helps!

Did you know the Hackspace is a not-for-profit organisation that thrives only on your membership fees?

Look at your standing order and consider increasing it today!


Letter (if we don't mind a million Return To Senders because it's been said repeatedly that we'd never physically mail people unless it involved legal issues):

Dear Member,

We, as a collective membership, wanted to thank you for being a member of Nottingham Hackspace.

As you might know, Nottingham Hackspace is a not-for-profit organisation that survives only due to the membership fees of its members. We do not have government grants, lottery funding, or external sponsors. We all work together to make the Hackspace a financially sustainable community in the heart of Nottingham.

As you might also know, things have been changing in Nottingham. The Sneinton Market area is now part of the Creative Quarter, and gentrification is encroaching. Because of this, our space has recently received a massive rent increase as the area becomes more lucrative for larger businesses.

If you want to help keep Nottingham Hackspace as the community it is - with no sponsorship deals, no constant grant seeking, and no restrictions aside from what the members put on it - then you need to step up.

If you can increase your monthly standing order, it would be immensely helpful to the space. We understand that everyone is unique, and everyone might not be able to increase their standing order, but even if it's by £1, that, across all of us, would be incredibly helpful to the space.

Also, if you have a skill that you think you could teach others, consider running a workshop. You don't have to be an expert, but if you can show someone how to solder, stitch together a bit of fabric, cut into some wood, or anything, please think about how much fun it would be.

The Hackspace is only what you make it.  And if you want to keep on seeing it as the wonderful thing it is, then, please. Help us.

Thank you,

The Nottingham Hackspace Membership


Getting stuff printed (don't wait for a magic money tree to fall from the trustees - you have money, you can pay for things too):

Solopress.com will print you out 100 A6 double-sided flyers for less than £20, and you'll get it the next day. You want 500? It's only £23. £23! I spend more than that a month on pizza from down the street!

pixel2print.co.uk does A1 posters for ridiculously cheap. I had two beautiful A1 art posters done up for less than £10.  You might have briefly seen them in the space - one was a 1930s' WPA print advertising the Grand Canyon and the other was Bob Big Boy in front of his restaurant. They got ripped down and hell if I know why, but I'm not that fussed because £10!

And I know there are other places out there, but I'm pointing out places I've used in the past. I'm sure y'all know of places - what do we have out there?



See? IT'S NOT THAT HARD. Print your own flyers! Make your own posters! Use your own talent to do something good for the space instead of just bikeshedding everything to death!

You have skills. I've seen them and they're freaking amazing. So use them.

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[Arthur Moore]

Hi James,

So it comes down to:

- drift on as at present without clear leadership, for fear of taking proper action and go bust in a few months time

or

- actually manage the situation.  Make it clear what the space needs from each member and suggest that is what members should pay.

N.B.  I am a member of the Railway Canal Historical Society.  We charge an annual fee and then ask for a donation at each meeting.  Nobody is forced to pay, but there is a polite notice suggesting that £2 each will cover the cost of the room hire.  Most people give what is suggested.

N.B.2.  They are a registered charity so get 25% back on all donations.  If we went down that route (in the longer term) how much would it help our finances?  

Arthur

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[James Hayward]

No Arthur, I was suggesting that we tailor our approach a bit more.  Instead of telling everyone to stump up £15, which I believe will put us in a worse situation, we talk to people like adults and properly help them work out what they should be paying. This has been a constant complaint from new members for the last 8 years, but something we as a community were unwilling to do.

Additionally, we run the risk of that proposed minimum being interpreted by HMRC as an actual minimum, and our tax bill going up as a result.

I am very happy that the Railway Canal Historical society does well, but as we have discussed many times previously, both in person and on here, it is a very different organisation.  London Hackspace has investigated becoming a charity a few times, and reached the conclusion that Hackspaces couldn't meet the test of being in the public benefit.  That was a few years ago though, so things may well have changed. It requires a fair amount of admin, changes to governance structures and changes to accounting and auditing.

J

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[Arthur Moore]

Hi James,

I think we would seriously struggle to come up with a fair sliding scale based, I presume, on usage? 

ax + by + cZ (+ the same again, but for people who pay discounted rates) = to equal our bills.

If you think it is possible to create such a formula then fine, but I think we will struggle to come up with meaningful numbers.

I wondered if we could charge an entry fee each time in addition to the monthly fees, so that regular users pay more, but it would be nicer if people used the space more, not get put off coming because they have to pay.

Arthur

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[Ian Dickinson]

How about just a simple table like this ...

[Arthur Moore]

Ian,

I would be very happy with that if the figures add up  :-)

Arthur

On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 13:14, Ian Dickinson <i...@d1ckinson.com> wrote:

How about just a simple table like this ...

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[Andrew Armstrong]

Something clear and concise and doesn't require a several month piece of work to get a calculator sounds good. That table looks reasonable enough even right now.

Since it's a mere guideline no one can complain if the trustees all back it so we can advertise it. Makes it easier to publicise (HMS sign up, posters) and a good short term starting point to get out of the emergency.

I wonder if Matt could magic up what the effect of these particular prices would be (although noting many do pay more than £25/month for instance).

Andrew

[James Hayward]

I like it Ian!

And yep, definitely quicker than building a calculator :)  But as with some of the other ideas on here, I think we need some short term fixes, and then some more medium to long term things as well.

I'd love it if my fictional calculator could notify someone when it detects a significant change - for example they put that they visit once a week, but one month visit 15 days out of 30 - a quick email nudge might be good there!  (and of course the levels of when those notifications would send would have to be configurable and agreed - that was just an example!)

J

[Lee Hutchison]

I think the table is the best way forward for the short and long term as it is simple and quick to follow.  However, it would also be good to have the more detailed online calculator available too!

I'm just crunching some numbers for the table now.  BTW there's some very useful reports here:  https://wiki.nottinghack.org.uk/wiki/Statistics

And in particular: https://lspace.nottinghack.org.uk/stats/member_stats.html

I think starting separate threads to discuss our different ideas would be a good idea. This should hopefully make our bike-shedding a bit more manageable :).

I'll start a separate thread for the table discussion shortly. I see James as started a separate thread for the more detailed calculator.

At some point I'll (or someone else might want to) start another thread to discuss member recruitment.

[Haze]

Somehow, over the past few years, the culture of our community has changed: from a culture where we must ask the trustees about the ramifications before we potentially do something dangerous/stupid/edgy/legally-dubious, to one where we it feels like we must ask the trustees before we do pretty much anything. This is not how this type of organisation is supposed to work, and is totally unsustainable!

And I am totally for a poster war about the recommended monthly subscription amount, that sounds brilliant! (Please, please have a poster war, the more hilarious the better :D )

[Lee Hutchison]

I'm packing 350 gsm - bring it on!

[Haze]

:D

[Jennifer Moore]

Hi all

As a mostly-lurker-member, enthusiastic about Hackspace's existence &
interested in communities/communication/culture generally, I'm following
this thread with interest.

Oliver wrote:

> Whilst I believe that increasing monthly contributions is probably the best way forward as a temporary measure, we are missing a longer term plan, which is membership gain.

I agree with this. Greater membership is more sustainable than
extracting more money from the same number of people.

At least, that's the case for many orgs, and I think it does apply here.
As a first approximation, the only time you might actively _not_ want
to gain more members is if the existing place were already overcrowded
day to day.

(which I don't get the impression is the case, although I've not been in
the space for probably a couple of years now, so haven't seen firsthand.)

> However, despite this I feel more effort is needed for recruitment. I reflect on the fact that I had been looking a place to do woodwork for a fair while before coming across hackspace. The only reason I eventually found out about it was due to the mention of it from my ex partner, who was an architecture student at that time. I've since met a few more architects at hackspace on my visits, and due to the nature of their degree the space works well for them (though the uni does provide their own woodwork/modelwork facilities). Essentially the communication for them is all word of mouth, which is fine in some respects, but limits how far this spreads.

> Having lived in the Lace Market, and Sneinton area for the past 4 years, and Radford Prior to that I am yet to see any advertising for Hackspace, or anything that alludes to it. Maybe I have just missed this, but I guess that's my point. I feel the presence of this space really needs to be felt among these groups and these areas, even if it is just flyers in coffee shops/student union. There is also the option of a university society if it doesnt exist already, and with two universities Hacksoc could have a decent draw, and I believe we have enough people in unis to allow for this and be ambassadors for the hackspace. Once again, this may be something I have missed having not been a student for 5 years.

Again, agreeing with all of this. There's lots of scope for expanding
awareness of the space.

It's probably _quicker_ to chivvy the existing people into coughing up a
bit more, and I can understand people going for the quick win due to a
sense of urgency & potential disaster... but this area i.m.o. is where
the long-term sustainability comes from.

Maybe more later on recruitment/induction processes, if people are
interested.

Jennifer

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[Emily (Starmouse)]

Just a little input from me, possibly quite naive and missing the point a little.

This year I have paid 6 x £10 in membership payments and now increased it to £15. I have also paid £315 into Snackspace, most of which has been for Laser use.

Now unless all laser payments are ring fenced for the upkeep of the laser this means my contribution to the space has been around £370 so far this year (taking out use of snack machines).

I feel that we need to include all payments into the space when looking at this problem not just subscription payments. 

Sorry if it is a rather simplistic way of looking at it but I can afford it this way but I doubt I would be a member at a straight £50 per month subscription (my approx average payment).

Emily

[Andrew Armstrong]

Valid points I'd say. This is another reason why it's a suggested fee not a cast iron mandatory one - those buying lots from the vending machine may feel they contribute there too, or who volunteer time (let's not get into that again though!). I'd prefer a higher membership fee on average and lower costs for tools so it's stable especially though winter. Hell even free for the laser could be done if fees covered the shortfall. Who'd come to pay for using a pair of pliers or a drill for instance? Would work even better if a second identical laser was put in.

However practically speaking I very much doubt the shortfall would be made up if this was done as part of asking for more fees near term, and therefore this is probably not a great time to do it. Something to appraise long term for sure! (people have in the past suggested raising costs and also charging for other tools although none are as popular - maybe the new 3d printer will be one? I dunno)

I'd say the laser costs are higher than some of its operating costs but it does typically use a lot of power and the parts are more expensive than a drill or saw - the £3 figure I remember was an estimate on a low ball of usage with worst case costs (some lasers burn through parts, maybe we got lucky). Given its not risen in price since it wad put in I wonder if its still massively outstripping its usage costs though...electricity bills for the space can be a thousand a month or more by the looks of things.

Andrew

[Ancient and Wicked]

I have a couple of concerns regarding this subscription calculator and the future of the Hackspace.

I know that both of these things are always going to be an emotive issue. 

Firstly, in one of the original posts on this Group, relating to the future of Hackspace, there is information that if half the members increased their monthly contribution by £3, this would be ok (this would more than cover the estimated increase required by 347 members of £2.88 per month). 

So I don't know how the amount people should/must/ought to be paying has been inflated so much to the figures in the subscription calculator. 

Even (by my very basic calculations based on Matt's ones) if only the active members (289 people as mentioned, out of a total population of 694) increased their regular payment by £3.46 (ok, round up to £3.50) per month, then the rough £1000 per month extra as required would be covered.

Please, let's be realistic, and not scare off people who may only be able to afford a little increase in their monthly amount at present, and who may choose to leave the Hackspace, rather than increasing their contribution by the little amount they can afford. 

We don't want to (and cannot afford to) lose good members who contribute to the space in this and in other ways, by making them feel they may not belong here as much as someone paying top dollar. 

My second concern is, given that the Hackspace is currently going through turbulent financial times, I wonder whether all or any non-essential spending has been reduced, minimised or put on hold for the time being, in order to safeguard available monies for things like rent and bills and other unavoidable running/essential/repair costs? I would like to hope so, but I do have some concerns. 

These are just my thoughts, and I am just one member. 

 

[Arthur Moore]

I'm with you on this.  i think these increases are unrealistically high, so if we cannot generate the income then we have to cut the costs.

Art

[Andrew Walters]

I agree, 

there are two ways to reduce the gap between expenditure and income, increase income and decrease expenditure.

Right now we should limit expenses to vital, rent, electricity and bogroll. for example, until finances are stabilized. Frankly, this is a trustee level thing, they hold the purse strings.

However are second-largest monthly bill is Electricity, around £800+ per month I believe, membership can contribute by switching off lighting when it's not needed. donating in Ian's taking money box if we chug a shit ton of coffee.

If we do have a critical piece of kit go down, a pledge drive to get it back working or replace it, rather than our reserves. Same for development for example if with the new laser cutter and we need Timber for benches.

Income wise there is the Box sale coming up for new member storage, which should help, I think. I think we should consider a small re-occurring charge for this, say 50p a month of snack-space to access the door.

If we look at the laser, its fairly trivial cost to use per member, but as it's used constantly and we pull in over £500 per month into snackspace, we can make a similar sort of steady income from Box storage, that will help close the gap.

There is also the possibility of a door charge, again off snack space say if access the space and you pay less than say £7:50.

Other tools that are very high maintenance and could be easily ( think)  fitted with RF interlock box, are bandsaws, again there could be a threshold per month where it doesn't apply.

Brainstorming a bit here, not sure if any of that is going to be seen as widely acceptable, or deliverable, but I would say now we have closed the leaky way we operated the Snackspace accounts, the sort of, internal economy mechanism we have with that, could work a bit harder for us with small impact on individuals but to pull more weight in terms of our total income to close the income-expenditure gap.

May I say the hackspace is brilliant, I will be gutted if it goes.

 

[garethhowell]

I think we should wait and see how much money is raised from the recent request to pay a bit more before we start introducing austerity measures. 

Adding a door charge and not fixing the critical tools are probably the easiest way to lose half the membership - why would anyone pay extra to go to a shit place with no working tools? Putting up barriers is no solution for our sustainability.

[Andrew Armstrong]

Yeah there is very limited cost cutting that can be done and this wouldn't help else the trustees would already do it. The repair and running costs are generally negligible compared to the rent and utilities costs that can't be changed (by a few orders of magnitude!). Even if it helped in minor ways you'd lose membership immediately.

Totally against micro charges, as I've said I'd prefer the laser go free in comparison to charging for each tool, if people upped their fees, but as discussed it's too short a time frame to do that.

Andrew

[Andrew Walters]

I need to be persuaded on that Andrew, but like you say we have little time, we have £1000 pound monthly deficit, likey we have one real opportunity and that is voluntary upping monthly members fees.

We did a lot of infrastructure work this year, Kitchen, Studio and obviously 2.5, we have laser installation coming up, I believe we can do a great job, improvising with stuff we have, rather than buying lots of hardware,  to accommodate it

one example is Matt fixed a grinder rather than buying a replacement which was proposed, last week, saved maybe 100 quid, that's 10% of our deficit on the sort in an expense we see every month.

Medium-term if we get through it little bits will count, 

The space in good order, make do and mend it will be fine for a few months, person power doing maintenance and jobs tend to be limiting factors, and have a bigger perceptual impact, not the dosh.

VBR

Andrew

PS

I would also add that I changed my standing order it won't be seen in August's finances due to the timing, in September we will very low on reserve in Matts projections, Likey it will go to the Wire.

[Jennifer Moore]

Hello all

Ancient and Wicked wrote:
> Please, let's be realistic, and not scare off people who may only be able
> to afford a little increase in their monthly amount at present, and who may
> choose to leave the Hackspace, rather than increasing their contribution by
> the little amount they can afford.
>
> We don't want to (and cannot afford to) lose good members who contribute to
> the space in this and in other ways, by making them feel they may not
> belong here as much as someone paying top dollar.

This is along the lines I've been thinking.

If someone's paying less than you think is right, there are a few
possible underlying causes.

1. they had to guess what was fair, didn't have enough of the
background, guessed wrong

2. they're trying to get away with something unfair

3. you're mistaken and actually for them that level was fair.

All three are probably happening; I'd guess that factor 2 is rare among
Hackspace members, 1 & 3 more common.

In making the chart, you're trying to address factor 1. But from the
outside of a person's life, it can be hard to tell the difference
between that and the others, especially with people you don't really
know / haven't even met. Concrete suggestions of amounts are tricky to
pitch right when people's circumstances are so varied. And if you get
the message wrong, there's potentially some downsides (elaborated on below).


Giving information, that's a whole other thing with far less risk of a
downside. I would suggest, as well as or instead of the "suggested
donations" chart, a breakdown along the lines of:

this is the rent for a year
this is what we pay in bills in a year
any other expenses likewise
divide by hours in a year
-> this is what it costs to have Hackspace open for an hour even if
nobody's there using it

this is how many people currently use it for roughly how many hours
division sum
-> this is how much the average payment per person-hour-of-use needs to
be to break even

this is how many members there are right now
different division sum
-> this is how much the average payment per member per month needs to be
to break even

plus framing/context as people have already suggested, "if you're skint,
pay less, if you're comfortably off or you're using the space to
indirectly make money, pay more".

The "per person-hour-of-use" figure would be more helpful to people
trying to set their own level, whereas the "per member" figure would be
more helpful for encouraging informal new-member recruitment.

A breakdown like this would also be an opportunity to talk up the
message "if you recruit more members, the average cost goes down - maybe
you know a friend or colleague who'd be interested".

One possibility would be to display these sums on a whiteboard at the
space, updated monthly if that's not too much bother for someone to take
on.

Another would be to include the key figures routinely when there's an
email broadcast to members.

Since the space needs time & energy as well as money, it might also be
valuable to consider a similar report/display for volunteer time - "this
is approximately how many volunteer hours went into the space this
month, divide by number of members -> average volunteer time per member".

I'm not saying it's categorically a _bad_ idea to have a "suggested
donations" chart, but giving information is a lower-risk method for
informing people's money choices - that is, lower-risk for putting
pressure on or creating an iffy vibe.


Some backstory by way of example...

I'm one of the people with a low standing monthly order - £2 per month.

I've been to the space a handful of times, mostly as a visitor before I
joined, typically because I wanted to show someone who I thought might
be interested. (My main reason for eventually joining was to have my
own entry card, in case I wanted to show someone round when the space
wasn't otherwise open.)

As it's turned out in reality, I have been in once so far since I
joined, the day I picked up the RFID card. I looked through the craft
supplies to get a sense of what was there, did some tidying up there and
went away again. I still think one day I might come and learn how to
use the laser cutter and make a few things. One day :-)

Old emails tell me I joined in May 2016, so Hackspace has had in the
region of £76 off me so far.

Add that money to the evangelising I've done to other people at various
points, and my little morsel of tidying-up; I'm confident that my net
contribution to the space, though smaller than some people's, is in the
positive.

For now, the meaning of my £2 a month is something like "I approve of
Hackspace existing, and one day I may start using it more".


It's pretty unlikely I'd go up to £5 a month on that basis. If £5
became the minimum, I'd probably stop my membership, and would consider
rejoining if I (ever) had a reasonable prospect of getting over to use
the space on a regular basis.

Also, key point here: If someone tells me I ought to be paying £5,
they're disrespecting my own reasoning for currently paying £2, and
implying that I was trying to get away with something. I don't think
that kind of message is compatible with wanting people's experience of
the space to be "I'm equal here, I'm trusted here".

And yeah, I know you're not saying "you _must_ pay more" with the
suggestion chart, but there were points in the big thread when things
seemed to be heading that way.

Even if it remains framed as a "suggestion"... if de facto it became the
norm, I don't know that I'd be happy to stick around paying £2, fully
expecting that some people were holding negative judgements about people
who only pay £2. I don't want to feel awkward or ashamed to admit
that's what I'm paying, or that I ought to be justifying it every time
the subject comes up.

My _specific_ situation is probably not all that common, but from the
stats quoted in this discussion, there do seem to be quite a lot of
dormant or semi-dormant members who are still chipping in.


Relatedly... People on a reasonable wage can be prone to the illusion
that £5 is "a token amount". Yes for some people it _is_! but
definitely not for everyone. If you're looking down the back of the
sofa for change for food or your bus fare, even one pound coin might
feel like a lucky fortune.

Money is very, very relative, and that's why I favour sliding scales and
giving information and trusting people.


hope that's useful

[Andrew Armstrong]

All good points Jennifer. These are all just suggestions, we can't do much else right now, no minimum fee for instance is being seriously considered. It's always been the case people feel bad about what they pay - any amount helps. You should hear what is said at AGMs, a lot worse words :-)

The summary as I see it may now be:

We need more income from members, the email sent out by trustees states it pretty clearly but didn't state what would be needed

Figures from Matt help see it's a bare minimum of £3 per member on average. Not everyone can or will increase (more than half of the membership is remote/not attending so doubtful to increase) so in reality people who can pay £5 or more will help. More would help stabalise (remember increase by 4% year on year minimum) since this won't get suddenly fixed.

Some want more solid communication, me among them. This includes suggestions on what to pay to help new and existing members for those that can afford it.

Three main suggestions are out here on that suggested amount:

1. A calculator - to the hour and even with tools - as James has stated. It'll be a while to get this done. No direct debits mean it's difficult to frequently use if usage changes. Short term: difficult to accurately figure this out although if you want to take a stab it'd be super helpful (I need to collate a ton of figures and ask Matt some stuff before I'd get to a good estimate). May be we can get a tier list for hours though done.

2. A standardised amount people are told when new members are joining. Dan (trustee) has said this will be formalised around a suggested £15.

3. A rough tiered approach based on attendance, amount of times a week, month or year. Its difficult to do this well since coming often doesn't mean long periods of time.

There are also some out there suggestions to charge for every tool, entry to the space and so on. All of these even if possible are in my opinion not good ideas to persue.

Lowering costs are put forwards but this is a trustee decision on what to spend on. Not fixing things as they brake is dangerous though.

My opinion is I prefer a simple £15 suggestion (however this means more text on what you can afford, and what if you attend less) but others want a mixed tier list or want no suggestion so you can't have everything, and not everyone will be happy even if every caveat is listed somewhere.

I'd be interested to know if people think the email is enough and if not what more could be done and what option to present widely is best. I'm glad more are posting really helps get some wider ranging opinions.

I'll be taking some of this to the next members meeting if anyone thinks posting here is fruitless or will be entirely ignored. More opinions the better.

Andrew

[Andrew Armstrong]

>I need to be persuaded on that Andrew, but like you say we have little
>time, we have £1000 pound monthly deficit, likey we have one real
>opportunity and that is voluntary upping monthly members fees.

Yeah it's mainly time. Going by the finacials on the wiki its not a big enough impact but I'm sure the trustees will stop major spends if they can.

Sorry for sounding blasé (emails are crap at tone) and yes lots was spent on new stuff but honestly, compared to some past years I'd hazard a guess it's been on the lower side of things (something Matt maybe can summarise - the yearly figures and summary at the AGM stopped in 2014 in the notes as far as I can tell).

Funds were raised for HS 2.5 and I do wonder if all that money got spent. If it did all get used on 2.5 then great, now it is of course coming from usual money thus needs carefully monitoring. If not then i wonder why this deficit wasn't mentioned years ago (since the 2.5 capital presumably went into the general pot and helped prop up the deficit). Hard to tell from the finacials pages which lack detail on that front but I may be blind!

Andrew

[Sean Riley]

have increased my payment HTH

On Thursday, 18 July 2019 23:20:48 UTC+1, Andrew Armstrong wrote:

I guess everyone has seen tonight's email - aka rent increases meaning we run out of money....

[Arthur Moore]

The situation seems to be:

- we cannot tell people to pay more (a) because inland revenue will tax the income and (b) lots will leave so it might reduce income.

- if we have close to 700 members and the monthly deficit is £1000, then everyone only needs to pay £2 more and we are solvent (just).  But the trustees seem to have decided they will not write to everyone and tell them it is essential for them to up their contribution by £2.  The feeling seems to be that only the 20% of active members are likely to be willing to pay more, so instead of a £2 increase, we would have to pay an extra £10 each month to subsidise the remaining 80%.  Few are going to be willing to do this and many will not be able to afford it.

- we are not going to massively grow the membership, at least in the short term.

From the above, I cannot see that we are going to get enough money from increased subscriptions so, according to the original email, we are going to go bust in a few months.

If we cannot sufficiently increase income then the only other option is to decrease outgoings.

There is only one way to do that - tell our landlords we will not be able to pay our rent in a few months and renegotiate the 5 year lease.  We could either keep only the first floor, or possibly the first floor and a smaller part of the ground floor.  Whatever we keep has to be something we can comfortably afford.

This discussion with our landlords needs to happen now, not at the time when we cannot pay the bills.  

The general membership cannot do this negotiation.  It is down to the trustees.

If we do not face up to the problem now (not in a few weeks, or months time) then there is a significant risk that the space will close.

We are likely to get a much more sympathetic response from our landlords if we are honest and up front with time for discussions.  Going to them when we are unable to pay the bills would not go down well.

Could the trustees clarify what is the legal situation:

- are we are company limited by guarantee (so minimal financial exposure), or are the trustees, or indeed the whole membership liable for any debts?

- if we do not pay the rent - how long before we have to get out and remove all the equipment from the space?

- as we have signed a 5 year lease is there an escape clause, or do we still owe the rent each month?

- if any money is owing, then presumably we could be forced to sell the tools to pay the bills, which would make it much harder to resurrect a Hackspace Mark 2?

I know that all this seems totally negative, but I think there is going to be a better outcome if we face reality now, rather than drifting on as we are at present - discussing the problem, but with no clear decisions being made which will lead to us falling off the cliff in a few months time.

Arthur

[Andrew Armstrong]

I'd welcome some answers to these questions from the trustees although I suspect that the lease was negotiated and is now stuck at that price (plus yearly increases) for 5 years from the trustee email. Knowing the higher costs before it was renegotiated into one lease would have been, dare I say it, of interest to the membership at large if we had an opportunity to drop downstairs to save the space as a whole (I'm not for dropping it myself but if it's that or closure...).

The trustees only have limited liability (to the tune of £1 I think) for debt purposes.

I know some of the trustees are brand new, but I'd like the existing trustees who have been in for more than a year to comment :-)

Andrew

[James Hayward]

I am not a trustee anymore, but I can answer a few of the general questions.

We are a company limited by guarantee, each member is liable for £1 which is held in the Hackspace accounts.

My understanding is that the negotiations for this lease took nearly a year and involved our lawyer, I doubt we would get any reduction in the rent.

I didn't see a message from the trustees saying that they wouldn't send a message? I didn't see one saying that they would either though!

It might help to understand the process that the trustees go through to message the membership.  Every message goes through a group writing and approval phase before it is posted, which can take some time. I expect (and hope) that the trustees are also talking about everything that is going on in this thread, but I wouldn't expect regular responses from them.

J

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[Arthur Moore]

Hi Andrew,

If the landlords know that in 3 months we will not be able to pay our bills and the space will close; but that we could pay the bills for (say) the upstairs only, then they would almost certainly see it is in their own best interests to renegotiate.

There is only one way to find out and that is to discuss the problem with them.

They would doubtless ask why we entered into the agreement if we are not now able to pay and I guess the answer is that the trustees thought they could generate more income, but that has not been possible. 

Like you, I do not want to lose downstairs and it would be great if we could keep one part of it, but i would rather close downstairs than lose the whole lot.

Arthur

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[Arthur Moore]

Hi James,

Thanks for your helpful response.

I can understand that the trustees want to agree every step, particularly at this critical time, but if the original message is correct that we only have 3 months to sort this, so time is rapidly running out.

I still think the landlords would rather renegotiate than have us default.  Clearly we will not get a reduction if we keep the same space, but if they get half the space back to lease to someone else, then they would probably prefer this to losing us entirely.

Arthur

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[James Hayward]

I don't disagree that a reasonable landlord would be like that.  I did spend some time with BizSpace though, and I'm not sure that they are reasonable!

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[Andrew Walters]

As a sanity check, Just quickly totting up exceptional expenses over last 6 months.
We are spending an average of about (bit less than) £600 per month on 2.5 (big spend in January but lowest was £240 it’s dropped off recently.
Our legal expenses £2500 to YTD biased toward Q2
Not sure how that fits in with estimated 1k PCM deficit.
But
I am expecting that most of our legal expenses are behind us with negotiation for the lease???
2.5 expense can be frozen.

[Lee Hutchison]

On top of that, will we have another hike in business rates once the rest of 2.5 is finished?  Or did the recent increase cover all of downstairs? 

[D Spence]

Did we Need a lawer? (legal requirement or trustees covering themselves?) how long have we had one? how much has it cost us?

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[James Hayward]

We have had a lawyer for years. This is the first time he has cost us anything.

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[D Spence]

good to know.

I honestly believe the membership will step up and we will be able to meet our outgoings,

That said

Do we have a disaster plan? 

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[Andrew Armstrong]

No disaster plan - the trustees say as much in their email, the space will just close.

If we don't see an uptick in funds sufficient enough at next weeks meeting I'll be proposing an EGM to get such a plan formalised...if its not too late by that point.

Andrew

[D Spence]

When I say disaster plan i mean "Start another makerspace somewhere else" plan.

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[Andrew Armstrong]

Haha, right! No it's not as such anywhere here. I don't think that discussion would be productive myself.

Andrew

[D Spence]

well for me and about 700 others, this isnt  about discussion. its about  hard reality.

I NEED a makerspace and if this one is closing I NEED to plan towards staring another.

Im not going to wait until the boat sinks.

with 300 active and 400 passive members we should be ok starting again. Again I dont think it will come to that but lets think about it. start looking for locations etc...

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 at 18:10, Andrew Armstrong <and...@aarmstrong.org> wrote:

Haha, right! No it's not as such anywhere here. I don't think that discussion would be productive myself.

Andrew

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[Callum Mulligan]

I think this is the nuclear option and the focus should be saving the one we have. It will take an age to get to this point again.

Get Outlook for Android

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Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 6:22:52 PM
To: notti...@googlegroups.com <notti...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Nottinghack] Re: Nottingham Hackspace is in danger of closing aka Rent Increases aka Membership fee increases

 

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[Matt Adlard]

Do agree that saving the space would save far more in costs that setting up new.

On Monday, 29 July 2019 19:02:41 UTC+1, Callum Mulligan wrote:

I think this is the nuclear option and the focus should be saving the one we have. It will take an age to get to this point again.

Get Outlook for Android

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From: notti...@googlegroups.com <notti...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of D Spence <not...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 6:22:52 PM
To: notti...@googlegroups.com <notti...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Nottinghack] Re: Nottingham Hackspace is in danger of closing aka Rent Increases aka Membership fee increases

 

well for me and about 700 others, this isnt  about discussion. its about  hard reality.

I NEED a makerspace and if this one is closing I NEED to plan towards staring another.

Im not going to wait until the boat sinks.

with 300 active and 400 passive members we should be ok starting again. Again I dont think it will come to that but lets think about it. start looking for locations etc...

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 at 18:10, Andrew Armstrong <and...@aarmstrong.org> wrote:

Haha, right! No it's not as such anywhere here. I don't think that discussion would be productive myself.

Andrew

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[Matt Adlard]

One has been lurking for a while and does need to pick up new card just Wednesdays are always difficult But interestingly from the outside is the lack of full Nottinghamshire and area knowledge of the place. The concept and hack space somewhere in Nottingham or Sneinton St Anns way is a common comment but never anything exact, including from establishments like the local colleges and University. Their is a real disconnect and grounded knowledge of the place, with disassociated social accounts, Google profiles and website being one of them. And yes will acknowledge that hard work has ben done to make the website, including possibly hard coding it from the appearance, but the pure lack of SEO and up to date linking, social media presence and correct information online and across the shire one would be useful with getting word out, even now.

[Arthur Moore]

Hi Matt,

I agree that it is much easier to save the present Hackspace than start a new one.

Even if we knew of another site (no) at a good rent (double no) then do we really want to move several tons of equipment, properly install and commission it (triple no).

The answer is to save the present space, but the trustees have to move quickly and they have to take the lead.  The members cannot head off in 50 different directions.  

Hopefully with all these emails flying around they will let us know what they are planning. Hopefully either

- a mail shot to every member asking for a £2 monthly increase

or

- start renegotiating the lease for the area that our current income can afford

 Arthur

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[James Adams]

Hi Everyone,

So, I have been keeping quiet until the trustees agreed on a plan to reply to you all, however, I do not believe this is happening fast enough. Therefore, I feel that some of the questions and concerns that you all have raised should be acknowledged by at least one current trustee.

Firstly, I’d like to thank everyone for contributing to this discussion, I think some ideas that have been had have raised valid questions. I have been trying to come up with a way to answer most of them, but I can only speak for myself and not for the trustees.

The Hackspace is an amazing community with 700 paying members with around 25% of which we see on average each month, now I think this is a great thing. We see a large number of our members support us financially without expecting anything in return.

Within 25% of the membership, we are only seeing 3% of our members paying less than £5. For any organisation of this size I would have (and at one point believed) that is was much higher. Alas, as we can see in the stats, this is not the case. Now admittedly these numbers fluctuate monthly and we cannot predict this as we run a “Pay what you think is right” policy. 

For anyone who doubts this policy doesn’t understand what this means. When I got to know a lot of the members while in the space, I have seen members on JSA or some other benefits and have been able to pick themselves up and make a meaningful impact on their lives that they no longer need to claim for these. This has meant that we have been able to help a member of our community not with charity but with giving the tools to make their lives better. 

So, to set a minimum or recommendation of payment on how many times someone comes into the great space we have will only affect the people who need it the most. However, yes, I would agree with many cases of abuse this system, we are contacting them individually to find out what their situation is. However, I will also admit, this does take some time.

I do believe that closing the membership should aid us in connecting with our current membership rather than keep growing. Should we take the quantity over quality mentality on our membership? In my opinion, no

Now on to the Rent, I was one of the negotiators along with Matt Lloyd (Treasurer) & Richard Parsons (Legal) who has helped us get the best possible deal for space. We regret that we did not keep the membership in the loop and as a previous trustee I can only ask that you accept my apology for not keeping membership up to date completely. However, as this is now in the past we look forward to the future, we have gained the security of tenure for both floors, we understand our rent increase of 4% each year and we can work towards making sure we are prepared for these increases.

Many believe that the ground floor “Downstairs” was a mistake in leasing, I do not believe this is the case. Many have worked hard to get it to the standards that we have, and I am proud of taking prospective members down and saying “…our members built this…”. We are very lucky to have the space we have. Yes, I have considered building a new hackspace, many have asked me in the space for my plans, but I have changed my thoughts on this, I’d rather save the one we have.

On to the deficit, yes, we need to be around £1000 to get back to a good place. This is because of our solicitor Richard was needed on 2 matters. Of which I cannot go into detail on one these, but I can assure you this was for the good of the space. This has caused our outgoings to be larger than we expected and our back rent which caused further issues and has caused our new trustees to find a way of increasing our income, which is how this email came about. They and the older trustees have been handed a tough blow this year and have kept coming. I am proud that the trustees have dived in with two feet, but I can assure you, only an ex trustee can tell you how much work it can be.

On another note, expenses have fallen, but this has come to some cost. Snackspace and Drinkspace are not going to be filled, we are limiting our box purchases to only those who are on the waiting list and finally, resources are going to be the essentials only. Until we can level out our expenses and understand our income. We struggle with this as we can only give a good estimate of our income after our email due to seeing the numbers at the end of a month. As Matt pointed out – if every active member contributes £3 into the pot, we would see a significant difference.

Finally, I have raised that the teams are complicated, we do not have a budget for each area of the hackspace and money has been mismanaged over a long time. Each team just requests money and we used to authorise it without looking at how this would affect the hackspace. So, after thinking hard about this I recommended to the trustees that only 7 teams were created, and many would merge into the new ones with the 7 trustees being responsible with this and being given a budget each month. If the teams then decided to save up to replace a tool this could happen.  They would then set up team meetings, create work parties and even work on major projects within the space.

Many would argue the above is irrelevant but having the mentality of “just do it” or “don’t need to ask for permission” doesn’t help the space, we need to all work as a collective, as a community. You elected the current trustees and they should be accountable instead of ex trustees saying what they think and telling everyone how it used to be. This doesn’t help move the space forward. We are grateful of them, but the new trustees may change things as new ideas, information etc comes in they need the trust of the ex-trustees that they will be backed up as I’m sure they would have expected while they were Trustees.

Finally, as a personal note. I have been a trustee for over a year, I have seen the space change a lot, many of you dislike my methods, or even dislike me. But I can say I always have the community at the forefront of everything I do. I have got to know many of you, some I see more than my own family. As we grow to reach more people in Nottingham and the wider communities, I remind myself of this “…Nothing in this world worth having, comes easy…”

Keep Hacking,

James Adams

Nottingham Hackspace Trustee

[Matt Adlard]

Nicely put, and as to the running of the space, it needs to be run as a business, and work as a community space. Period. You are here to provide a safe exciting space not a free for all doss house (no offence) their should be a balance.

One is curious if any work has been done to look at grants from Nottinghamshire Community Foundation, Midlands Arts Council, Funding Central, Nottingham City Homes, National Lottery???? Interestingly have the trustees tried to get in touch with other social groups in Nottingham?? Reason one asks is that one s re-developing ProjectTHISNG website and the Nottingham Board and Wargames club amongst a couple of others and they are setting up something of a interesting concept connecting with the local social groups to get more options both funding and membership. It does suggest that looking at something similar as they would make a great fit with Hack Space and their director is a member of the hack space. Would be interesting as you have a office, community space that is private and could help make use of it with tabletop gaming projects and courses.

As for the discontinuity with the site and social media can possibly help there as work with websites amongst other jobs and have templates that could expand some of the functionality and expand the site if the other web admins are ok; can look at linking with social media accounts setting up some automation if not already using it, register a hashtag and correct Google and SEO issues. One has time so happy to help. Also know of a local film guy who is setting up as an independent film and video production business and owes me more than one. So sorting out having more vids and tutorials, introductions that are up to date could also be a possibility.

[James Adams]

Matt, 

We have started a new website but we currently don't have a team to start working on finishing it off.

As for social media I would like to get a new team working on this and set some goals, however in my opinion without the trustees leading from the front it's kinda hard to stop things from dying out.

Regards,

James

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[Matt Adlard]

If you want one to sort/finish the site just say so, its fine, you obviously have content but happy to finish off and can work quickly to get out before to late. Secondly would ask why Hack space does not have an online store to sell stuff, bird boxes, laser cut stuff, like kits, small craft stuff, including making use of online PoD services like t-Shirt companies to make a small but regular income??

On Monday, 29 July 2019 21:10:03 UTC+1, James Adams wrote:

Matt, 

We have started a new website but we currently don't have a team to start working on finishing it off.

As for social media I would like to get a new team working on this and set some goals, however in my opinion without the trustees leading from the front it's kinda hard to stop things from dying out.

Regards,

James

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019, 21:00 Matt Adlard, <adlard...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nicely put, and as to the running of the space, it needs to be run as a business, and work as a community space. Period. You are here to provide a safe exciting space not a free for all doss house (no offence) their should be a balance.

One is curious if any work has been done to look at grants from Nottinghamshire Community Foundation, Midlands Arts Council, Funding Central, Nottingham City Homes, National Lottery???? Interestingly have the trustees tried to get in touch with other social groups in Nottingham?? Reason one asks is that one s re-developing ProjectTHISNG website and the Nottingham Board and Wargames club amongst a couple of others and they are setting up something of a interesting concept connecting with the local social groups to get more options both funding and membership. It does suggest that looking at something similar as they would make a great fit with Hack Space and their director is a member of the hack space. Would be interesting as you have a office, community space that is private and could help make use of it with tabletop gaming projects and courses.

As for the discontinuity with the site and social media can possibly help there as work with websites amongst other jobs and have templates that could expand some of the functionality and expand the site if the other web admins are ok; can look at linking with social media accounts setting up some automation if not already using it, register a hashtag and correct Google and SEO issues. One has time so happy to help. Also know of a local film guy who is setting up as an independent film and video production business and owes me more than one. So sorting out having more vids and tutorials, introductions that are up to date could also be a possibility.

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[James Adams]

Hi Matt, 

Actually the opposite, the site is complete it's the content that needs doing.

As for the shop, it's more who is liable for damages, running the store making sure everything is kept in stock. It's a lot of effort and in all honesty we have only a few that would do this regularly. However we are very open to use our social media to advertise to our followers to member made products in the hackspace. 

Again though this is only my opinion. 

J

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[James Hayward]

The Hackspace would be liable for damages.

But that is why we have product liability insurance.

J

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[Andrew Armstrong]

Hi James, thanks for contributing.

I don't think anyone is arguing on 2.5 progress, or the payment
increases needed (which need to be more than £3 per member due to comms
issues, or simply people already paying as much as they can, it'll be
likely closer to a £5 or more needed for those who can afford it). Good
summaries though on these basics.

Thank you for covering the expenses cut off, although as it seems to be
many expenses are minimal - or like Snackspace would drive some form of
income (vending machine pays for more than itself). I'd be interested to
know what a list of essentials are too.

Some of your later bits however concern me;

On 29/07/2019 19:51, James Adams wrote:
> Finally, I have raised that the teams are complicated, we do not have
> a budget for each area of the hackspace and money has been mismanaged
> over a long time. Each team just requests money and we used to
> authorise it without looking at how this would affect the hackspace.
> So, after thinking hard about this I recommended to the trustees that
> only 7 teams were created, and many would merge into the new ones with
> the 7 trustees being responsible with this and being given a budget
> each month. If the teams then decided to save up to replace a tool
> this could happen.  They would then set up team meetings, create work
> parties and even work on major projects within the space.

Oh please, please don't use an emergency to make sweeping organisational
changes short term!

More top down trustee stuff now at the time you're most busy with an
emergency is a bad, bad idea. At most just cut the authorised expenses
and card increases off for the time being and scrutinise with a usual
trustee vote on authorisations (which it appears you've already done).

Saying this will all be done in the next few months without a slow burn
introduction or even member consultation (including with the teams
themselves!) is a recipe for further disaster and annoyed members.

> Many would argue the above is irrelevant but having the mentality of
> “just do it” or “don’t need to ask for permission” doesn’t help the
> space, we need to all work as a collective, as a community.

Hold on hold on. This is a lot to break down in one paragraph.

This is the ultimate bikeshed comment. I hope you understand the
severity of me saying that. You do not want us to do anything? Or you
do? Or you do want us to get permission? I'm confused. Work as a
community by discussing things here isn't alright? Or it is but no one
does anything? Do we have to be part of the in-crowd or attend the space
to talk to you about what we're up to? Should we put our findings only
privately to the trustees email? keep it all hidden?

Why would us not looking to, say, publicise this with posters in the
hackspace or put up a suggested amounts be a good idea? (Dan suggests
new members will be given an idea of £15 so are you countering your own
trustee board now? :) ). I'm a little confused on this viewpoint even if
you were not a trustee!

> You elected the current trustees and they should be accountable
> instead of ex trustees saying what they think and telling everyone how
> it used to be. This doesn’t help move the space forward. We are
> grateful of them, but the new trustees may change things as new ideas,
> information etc comes in they need the trust of the ex-trustees that
> they will be backed up as I’m sure they would have expected while they
> were Trustees.

I also take issue with you calling out Ian Dickinson, Matt Lloyd, James
Hayward and Kate Bolin (for those unaware of what people he explicitly
means in this thread) doing their best to suggest accountancy
information, fee numbers, custom calculators, tables of membership fees,
and promotional work that may be useful to pursue. They are not
inherently backing the trustees up because there is little to nothing
the trustees have presented them to back up - only a call to increase
fees with no suggestions on how much or on other areas being worked on.
We've all had to guess as to the meaning of all of this and ways to go
about helping. They are also really positive for increasing member fees
one way or another (in their own ways!) and know the difficulties of
rent issues - James himself oversaw a huge financial emergency back in
2012 which in percentage terms is probably a higher increase then now
per member, albeit lower overall.

You're now driving these excellent people away with these comments
nevermind the other dozen or more past trustees who haven't even posted.
You are pretty much doing a rule 3 violation here; the first in this
thread in fact since I've read every response fully.

I am entirely serious that I think you need to apologise to them in this
thread as soon as possible, and let all members know they can post
opinions as much as they like as long as it is civil and follows rule 3.

Thanks,

Andrew

[Matt Adlard]

Some aspects like the site need putting up as currently it has a extremely poor presence online with a couple of SEO scores showing 20-25% out of 100 ratings and some real security issues aside.

You need the social media and website matters sorting as little stuff like Google advertises the site as being only open Wednesday nights and while one gets that this is about the open nights, it needs to show and you can that this space is open to members 24-7ck

A shop can be set up with the Tuckshop, and have someone dedicated to business matters, but you only need to look at that with small areas to start with so if you have a bat or bird box building course getting extra made, or having some members volunteer to knock up bits from time to time, start small and also could look to sell through Tourist Information what matters is more about regular possible revenue streams to help the space. In a way its about a duel nature to the space, there as a hack space for community and also a pace that provides some aspects that pay for themselves.

[Tony S]

It's disappointing to see so many folks suggest "just start another hackspace" as a potential solution.

Folks, I honestly believe if you had *any* idea how much time, effort, money and luck it took to get Nottinghack off the ground, I think you'd feel differently about the likelihood of a new hackspace succeeding.

I think Andrew has made far better points than I would be able to, however I want to make a firm and loud statement regarding the comment regarding Rule 3 and James Adams response.

James - being a trustee is a thankless task, I don't envy you. In this case the hackspace is under threat, and the Trustees, as you have acknowledged, have been very slow to publicly engage.

That is no justification for your attempt to close down discussion and suggestions from hackspace members - I second the call for an apology.

Trustees - I'm afraid we don't know each other, sorry, but can we please speed up the pace in communication here.  For people to band together and form a plan, we need all to participate.

The clock is ticking, and we need to raise money *fast*

Kind regards

Tony S

[David Hayward]

James A: "You elected the current trustees and they should be accountable instead of ex trustees saying what they think and telling everyone how it used to be." <-- I think you might be mixing up accountable with something else.

As a member and an ex-trustee, it's not my job to unconditionally support any current or future elected board of trustees.

[Gazz]

Possible way to address the 'what should you pay' thing.....
Give active members examples of what other Hackspaces charge? maybe with a
little hint that if Nottinghack closes they will have to find an alternative
Hackspace, where the member fee's are more a 'this is what you pay to become
a member here, take it or leave it' style.

I'm a member of Leeds Hackspace, as i live closer to there now than
Nottinghack, their fee's are £25 a month, with a concession of £12.50 for
people who are unwaged,
i believe they will do other fee's for people who have serious financial
issues and can't make it to the space often enough to justify the usual a
month fee.

In those cases paying a quid or so a month is surely better than nothing,
all the quids add up and these people are not taking anything out of the
space for the time being.

York hackspace is £30 a month, with a concession available if you ask (and
like Leeds, can prove your entitlement) York has a simple quote on their
membership page:

"It costs nearly £15 a day to run the hackspace"

Yes York and Leeds hackspaces are much smaller than Nottinghack, and thus
cost a lot less to run, but also have less tools and a lot less members too.



Talking of £1 a month members at... I am one of those i'm afraid, but i do
this to keep my membership open because since 2016 i have lived over 100
miles, and a 2 and a half hour drive from Nottingham, hence i've visited the
space 3 times in the 4 years that i've been paying £1.
i also have very limited money and i have to budget very carefully to avoid
getting into debt.

i have always said that if i do visit the space i will leave a donation in
the tins to try and cover what i take from the space on my visit in terms of
electricity, pcb etching solution, solder, scrap laser ply and so on..
however i couldn't find the donation tins lately.... hence on my last visit
which was at the end of march, i put what coins i had in my pocket in what i
thought was a donation tin by the laser... but i now know that's the money
box for paying for materials.

This weekend i was around nottingham way, so on Saturday i called in the
space to show my GF the awesomeness of what is Nottinghack, she was very
impressed and especially loved the look of the beautiful old mortising
machine, and was totally blown away at size and speed of the laser (Leed's
laser is only a baby.. an A2 sized one that is based on a K40!! hence it
really struggles to perform)
I also cut out a little job on the laser, mostly to use up the last of my
free credit from when i pledged towards buying the laser back in 2014!!!

We re-visited again Monday (after spending way way more than i really should
have at Kitroniks.. beans on toast for the next week for us lol)
i did 2 x 7 minute laser jobs, and i paid off my snackspace bill from
today's laser use at the money gobler machine, and had added £5 to my
account thinking i could donate that to the space by choosing the donate
button on the vending machine (if it's still present) but the vending
machines were not working, so i gave another £5 in coins me and my GF had in
our pockets that was for lunch as a donation direct to someone who put it in
manually.

I hope my donation of the green scroll saw (November 2018.... i'd loaned it
to the space for a couple of years before that) that lives on the bench in
the far right corner of the dusty area went a little towards paying for the
immense enjoyment i got out of the space when i used to live just 7 miles
away,
Back then i would sometimes come down at half 2 in the morning when i
couldn't sleep but had ideas stuck in my head i just had to make reality,
thus i was selfishly using more electricity on just my self without
realizing it.

[James Adams]

It is a thankless job, you are correct. This is why I'm not going to apologise, I never said I was shutting down the conversation. Rather pointing out that the new trustees need to make their own decisions without battling the ex trustees. These are valuable members but somehow I still believe having too many cooks makes a bad stew. 

As an autistic member I see the world very differently and while everyone wants to get their opinion across, it's not actually moving forward but rather seems no different to the trustees, lots of talk no plan of action. Yes tables have been made but has anyone thought to share these in slack? Or even print them and build a suggestion box? Get members who use the space and are part of the 25% and don't use this forum to have their say.

I have never said they need to blindly follow but rather put yourself in the shoes of the current trustees. I'm tired of doing the same thing every time and expect a different result. Many call it burn out but honestly it's mismanagement, broken policies and ineffective communication within the trustees that's caused 99% of the problems. 

I stuck around to allow the people who do see me every week in the space and talk to them and get to know their story. Vilify me if you wish but honestly, I've had my resignation letter written 4 months ago when I got verbally abused by a member and threatened my business, of which some would say I most likely deserved.... So if you want to ask why I won't apologise, I'll be in on Wednesday.

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[Dan Spencer]

James, 

I don't feel in any way that we are battling the old trustees or that we aren't moving forward. You have seen all same emails that I have offering assistance, suggestions and help. 

Lots of talk from as many parties as possible is extremely important when dealing with an issue like this. We cant say BAM, pay us £25 or else! As has been said lots of times, people will just leave and the situation will go from bad to worse. 

We need to get a consensus from our members on what to do that will inform our decisions and the only way to do that is through talking and monitoring discussion within the Hackspace community on google groups/ slack. 

You must remember that the Hackspace is a community run workshop and without everyone's input and actions, it wouldn't exist. 

The trustees aren't here to run everything, and we absolutely shouldn't. We are not supreme overlords of the hackspace. If enough members want to call a meeting, or change a process, or put up a poster in the space suggesting donation amounts then I am 100% in agreement with them.

I understand that you have strong feelings about this but please don't go making enemies by trying to move too quickly. 

Members,

For what its worth, I agree with the sentiment that the trustees have all had disappointingly little input into this forum since the email was sent. I can assure the members though that we have all been following the discussions whilst dealing with other pressing matters affecting the space; We haven't all just gone AWOL! 

I have personally responded to a lot of the emails the trustees received offering good will and financial aid in the last week despite being on holiday and struggling to get reliable data access. Apologies if you haven't received a reply yet, its coming!

If you have already increased your standing order by any amount I am extremely grateful and look forward to seeing the impact that is having in this months financial report.

If you haven't already, we still need you to it!

So that we can discuss this in person, can you all please attend the members meeting on 7th August? If you want to talk to me before this, I will be in the space on Wednesday 31st too.

We need as many people at the members meeting as possible to agree a route forward, tell every member you know to show up if they can make it.

Thanks, 

Dan 

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[Andrew Armstrong]

Thank you Dan for being a voice of reason.

James I've nothing more to add to Dan's and David's response over you not apologising and the community effort.

I see you ignored my other points on changing teams near term or knowing what are approved actions in your view (apparently printing a decisive poster is good?). I do agree on one thing; some regular members are not on this mailing list, which is a shame, and I hope the answer would be to encourage them to join here. Without a in-person meeting for this the fragmented in-person discussions you have maybe don't lend those views to being taken into account.

Slack has a very tiny amount of activity even in comparison to here. The discussions there are much harder and short form on this complicated topic, and are unlikely to get any more concensus or general approval on a hot topic. Given no one else is discussing it there, I didn't bother engaging further.

I can't make tomorrow for the open hack night but will be in at the members meeting next week. I hope a week let's you rest a little, I feel you're overworking yourself here and making it very personal.

Andrew

[Arthur Moore]

Hi Dan,

What is the point of waiting for another meeting in 10 days time?

We know what has to be done.

Either EVERYONE pays more - maybe not a lot more and the consensus is that it should be according to your ability to pay, not a fixed sum - but we are a lot more likely to get the majority of members to up their payments by £2 than we are if we ask £5 a month.

If we cannot get members to pay more then the only other option is to renegotiate the lease for a smaller area.

It doesn't need another meeting to discuss this.

It does need communication going to EVERY member - not the few who read the forum, attend meetings, or read Slack.  That is something which only the trustees can organise.  Members would help if we have to use snailmail, but only the trustees know what people are paying and only they have members contact details.

We are just delaying the essential action for another talking shop.  We have seen every shade of view on this forum.  Now it is time for the trustees to make a decision on which path they wish to follow.

Arthur

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[Andrew Armstrong]

From my perspective I want to see how well that initial email did, how big the emergency then is, the outreach of the different comms (if they record it) and get a view on the several suggestions for further messages - eg fixed amount of 15, versus rough per visit, versus comparisons to other hackspaces, versus just a message of £3 or £5 increase to your fees etc. (and as some have posted they feel any suggestion looks like a demand!)

As you say there is also further member comms to do. I'd consider asking people to bring friends along to join and how to do that would be good. There is considerations of what goes into this - the first email was good but could have been a lot better.

Then there is more marketing, such as leaflets outside the hackspace, and looking at press - our 10 year anniversary coming up in March for instance. Things can be discussed by email but are rarely decided by it, and I'm not looking to be the face of publicity myself.

Then there is knowing what people have done and will be doing so no one wastes time. Especially if they involve spends... (eg. Printing leaflets), or involve retrieving donations (can we get PayPal advertised and sent to members and on the site like London? I can't do that, only trustees can)

Also in person things tend to not take so long.

BTW I too am of the opinion it's too far away. I asked for a dedicated meeting for this (EGM or otherwise) and was shot down by James. Dan had added my suggestion of this to the meeting agenda. So best we can do.

Nothing would have stopped me or anyone else calling random a meeting on a random night but with potentially no trustee attendance means problems as per above points, especially advertising the meeting outside this mailing list since we can't send a member email!

Andrew

[Andrew Armstrong]

I've gotta have a look around that's some pretty varied approaches! Thanks for pointing some out.

I think all non-attending members can't be counted on for any increase since usually the reason is they are doing a minimal payment to stay a remote member to support the space (as you say!).

I'm trying to figure out the day cost rate, but it's difficult using the wiki info by itself, especially with seasonal changes and the change to rent. Possibly Matt can estimate this ongoing cost more easily.

Andrew

[Dan Spencer]

Hi Arthur,

The primary reason for waiting for the members meeting is that it's when we run the financial report and that is when we will know if the email we've already sent out had any effect.

As Andrew said it also allows members to mobilise and discuss action plans in person; things tend to happen faster face to face. I will endeavour to be at any meeting that is called before the members meeting although I need to reiterate what has been said many times. Trustees do not necessarily need to be leading this. I'm going to bring up what Kate said a few days ago, If the members come up with a plan or draft a letter to all members and simply ask the trustees to send it out through the mass mailer, we will vote on it quickly and it will more than likely happen. I know this is a frustrating response but please trust me when I say we have been dealing with other issues that are demanding a lot of our Hackspace time at the moment.

Having said this, I can confirm the trustees planned when the first email was sent to also send another reminder email to all members, similar content to the first email, at the end of this month to coincide with payday.

Thanks,

Dan

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[Arthur Moore]

Hi Dan,

OK.  This is my suggestion for a letter.  I guess there will be lots of amendments.

Dear Hackspace member,

Our outgoings and in particular our rent now exceeds our income and if Hackspace is to continue we have to quickly increase subscriptions.

We are therefore asking every member to increase their donation by at least £2 per month.  No one is forced to pay more and if you cannot afford any increase that is fine.  We are committed not to turn anyone away for financial reasons, but Hackspace cannot continue unless income from members exceeds costs.  We do not have a lot of time so, if possible, we ask you to act now.

We think that for waged members the following is a guide for what we think you should pay:

Occasional visitors to the space, perhaps only a couple of times a year - £5 per month

Four or five times a year - £8 per month

If you are coming once per month - £12 per month

If you are coming once per week - £18 per month

If you are coming regularly and using Hackspace to make stuff to sell - £24 per month 

These are not hard and fast guidelines, but gives you an idea of how much we need from members to keep Hackspace going.

Thanks for your support.

Hackspace Trustees

>>

Is that of any help?

Arthur

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[Andrew Walters]

Let's stay on topic.

I have podged together tabulated data in a spreadsheet, transposed from our WIKI 2019 accounts, a shit tonne of transposition errors are likely, as I am prone to do, I make a lot of mistakes with that sort of thing.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oulv_9gGdlaYQWbSxnXRWjFAdH0qK3-8/view?usp=sharing

it's a bit messy and includes some attempts to model our income and expenses to the end of the year, more work in progress for my understanding, but I share maybe you can improve, or do your own analysis. likey made some errors in logic as well to reach my conclusions.

Some of takeaway's

• If the legal fees were exceptional for the rest of the year and they are over, that helps. we can't afford any more of that.
• HS 2.5 Needs a budget, It had one now it's gone.
• Snakcpace profit is mostly laser, we make money from the Vending machines but the bottom line snack space income is deceptive likely its about £100-150 a month profit from snacks and drinks, which about covers our cleaning bill or thereabouts, laser fees are included in that number, which from posts in the laser Slack channel should be worth about £537 month on average based on time in use. not easy to know due to the **leaky hackspace accounts overdraft arrangement. Payments into the jars and notetaker all end up in "Snackspace" as its called out in our monthly accounts. (**loophole now closed)

For my part we need everybody's dosh for membership if you can't afford anymore that's fine please don't cancel, it all anonymous anyway, don't feel bullied t spending what you cant afford. and frankly it wouldn't be the same without you.

If you can afford a bit more or a substantial amount more, you care about the place, enjoy coming for the community, please feel a bit bullied !! and help if you can.

bean-counting, more considered analysis and feedback to the membership, people paying more and prudent financial control will be needed henceforth. looking at the number in lunchtime analysis, I believe it is possible

[D Spence]

I think linking visits to how much to pay is going to bite us in the ass. 

400 of our members never visit... should they pay nothing?

the rent dosen't care how many people come and go

visits though measurable dosen't account for how much resources are used while in the space eg  just using a laptop for 1/2 hour vs running heavy tools for 8 hours. both = 1 visit.

we survive on the goodwill of our members so lets bear that in mind and proceed positively.

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